Dennis & Julie: Marriage vs College

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Hello everybody and welcome to the fourth episode of the Dennis and Julie podcast. I am the Julie. Of the Dennis and Julie, and I have Dennis Prager here on Skype, and we're very happy to be with you today. I wanna remind all of you that this podcast is sponsored in part by MyPillow. You can go on mypillow.com and get some great discounts with the promo code Hartman. That's H-A-R-T-M-A-N, my last name. MyPillow created the Giza Dream bedsheets to help you get the best sleep of your life. MyPillow's latest deal is the sale of the year. For a limited time, you will receive 60% off of the Giza Dream Sheets that comes with a 60-day money-back guarantee and a 10-year warranty. You'll receive a set for as low as $39.99, and for a limited time, with any purchase, you will receive Mike's Soft Cover Book free when you use the promo code Hartman. Call 1-800-566- 6745 and use the promo code Hartman, or go to mypillow.com and use the promo code Hartman. And I also want to remind you at the beginning of this episode, because I realize I only really say it at the end, that we would love if you would email questions to us. We've actually gotten a few questions, Dennis, that maybe we should read aloud later today. But for those of you listening, you can send them to me at julie-hartman.com. Before we get into the questions, one of the two of us had a very exciting week, and hint, it was not me. Dennis here had his son's wedding in Florida a week ago, and I just want to tell all of you that I was very touched. Dennis sent me a photo the day of the wedding of him walking his son Aaron down the aisle alongside his wife Sue. That was a beautiful picture, Dennis. Tell me about that day.

So Julie, I actually, I spoke during the meal, the wedding meal. I didn't speak during the service. And I mentioned, because I'm very self-reflective and, you know, I've thought a great deal about the happiness issue and of course wrote a book about it, do the Happiness Hour on my radio show. So I, I have aspired in life to be at a constant, on a 1 to 10 happiness scale, a constant 7.5. I have never aimed for 10, and I dread going to 3, let alone 1. It's worked out. I, you know me, and I, I'm pretty much completely predictably 7.5, which is pretty high, by the way. It may sound mediocre to some. It is not. It is pretty, pretty darn good. And all the time. And I, and as I said, I never seek a 10, and I don't even remember having a 10. So this is as close as I ever was to a 10. That is how powerful his marriage, my second son's marriage, was partially. There are many reasons. Partially, he went through a very difficult time for many years. My late wife and I adopted him, and the day he was born, we did not know he was born to a meth addict. That transferred to him either biologically or genetically or both. And so he battled addiction through his very early 20s. When, to his great credit, he became sober and is now sober about 6 years, and the real Aaron has come out. And I, I did not know what would be of his life. I did not know if he'd die of an overdose. And here I was walking him down the aisle with a girl I love. She's very special, Felicia. It's a gift from God, as I, as I see it. And all of that, plus just the wedding of your child, made it an unbelievable experience for me. And I— then there was a— in a Jewish wedding, there's a very beautiful tradition. The men get together in one place and the women in another. And where the men get together, the man signs the ketubah, the wedding contract, with two witnesses who sign it as well, witnessing that he is now obligated to a wife, which I love. I love that he decided to be obligated to a wife. I'll talk about that later because this is really on my mind, because it says to me that my son is a man. I, I regard— I regard men getting married as when they say, 'I'm a man.' I don't want to insult single men who are watching or listening, but I, I believe that, that, that's the moment that the vast majority of boys, of whatever age, maybe 40, become men. We could get into that as well. So everything about it was awesome. And then I was mentioning that when the men get together at the signing of the contract, people say some words. And my older son David started to cry, just referring to his younger brother. And I will tell you something amazing: I have never seen David cry, even, even as a child. He was bitten by the neighbor's dog. He needed 40 stitches and really bitten, and he didn't cry. And he was, I don't know, maybe 11 years old. 12 years old, I don't remember, but he was, you know, not a grownup. And so he doesn't cry, at least in my experience, and he just cried in the joy that he had. So then Aaron cried at David's crying, and then I cried at the two sons crying, and then everybody else started crying. It was, Julie, it was overwhelming. That's all I could say.

Well, you know, I think part of the reason why I was so moved when you sent me that picture is because I do have some idea— of course, I don't know the half of it, but I have some level of idea of what your family has been through with Aaron's addiction problems. And I just want to say to you how much I appreciate that you're willing to talk about it and how much I appreciate that Aaron is fine with you doing so. Because, you know, Dennis, you have a very human show. I think you're a very human-y talk show host. You go there. And I think that's a very magnanimous and gracious thing for you to do because all of us have problems and all of us have struggles in life. And it's really important to be open about it. And my sister, my oldest sister, Harriet, got married 2 years ago. And the way that you described the feeling of a 10 was also the exact feeling I had. But, you know, I also realized something really important in going to my sister's wedding. And it's that although the day is so joyous, there's so much work that leads up to it. And I'm not talking about the wedding planning, although of course that's— that is a lot of work. I'm talking— I really got a sense of how much time and effort and investment you have to put into yourself and you have to put into your partner in order to get to that point. And so that's really what you're saying with Aaron. I mean, that day was a joyous day for you, but there was also a lot of pain and struggle and nail-biting moments leading up to it. And I think that, you know, we see these weddings and these couples in movies and TV shows, and it sort of gives us the false impression that everything is just like dancing through a field of roses and tulips, and it isn't so. But when that day finally comes and you find that person, I can imagine it's all worth it.

Well, there's so much you just said. So of course there's the famous biblical phrase, those who sow, those who reap, sorry. So those who sow in tears reap in joy. And I said, I quoted that at the, the wedding contract, the ketubah signing. And I said, looking around though, I can actually say those who sow in tears reap in tears. Because everybody was in tears. I mentioned to Steve Marmer, my dear friend, who's a psychiatrist whom you know, and I mentioned in my talk in my synagogue, which I give each week back in LA, that it's an odd thing that we cry at pain and cry at joy. If you saw a picture of me, you would not know if I had lost a son or married a son. Isn't that— is that an odd thing about life?

Yes, there's sort of a continuum of emotions, right?

It comes in a circle.

Right.

Yeah. So anyway, I guess he just said intensity of emotion brings tears, whatever, whatever the emotion is, positive or, or painful. So I had a thought, Julie, that hit me really only this past week, and I want to obviously bounce it off you. And I, and I thought, of all the great days of a person's life, the birth of a child, the marriage of a child, your child having a child so you have a grandchild, and any other great day, I think the, the biggest one is your child's marriage. And I offer an interesting I don't know if I— I think it's interesting. I offer this argument. Outside of your funeral, which obviously is not in your life, it's your death, but outside of funerals, the most people who come to anything in life is a wedding. They don't come to the birth of your child in Jewish life. They come to a bar mitzvah, but not nearly as many as to a wedding. The wedding is the time that the most people in your life convene in one place. There is no other time. Isn't that a pretty big statement of how important people think marriage is?

Hugely. And to your point, it's a happy time that they're congregating for, which is so rare because the other times it's funeral, really, when you get all of those family members.

Yeah, and you're dead.

You don't get to see it.

No, you don't get to see it. Exactly. So here's, here is an interesting, a really interesting and important point. If I'm right, it's the most important day in a person's life, at least by, by the vote of feet of people going there. So how many parents would say, I, I consider the marriage of my child to be the most important thing in my child's life, even more important than getting into a good college? And it would— I don't know the answer to that question. How many— first, how many parents would say that? That my child getting married is as important to me as my child getting into a good college. And I don't— I believe a lot of people would say it, but here's the punchline: almost no parent conveys that to their child. How many parents have conveyed their belief, your getting married is more important to me than your getting into a good college? That's my question.

Well, you know, the answer to that question, Dennis, I think depends largely on the environment that you're in and the background that you have. I know that I'm lucky that while my parents expected me to work hard and to take advantage of my opportunities, they repeatedly told me throughout my life that the most important thing is family. In fact, my dad recently— I was about to say the number that he turned. I'm not going to do that to him on this podcast. He recently turned a certain important number a few days ago.

Does it have a zero at the end?

It doesn't have a zero at the end. Actually, it has a 7 at the end. But I think once you get to that certain age range, it is an important number.

Okay, fair enough.

I'm exposing my dad. I'm sorry, Dad, but I'm about to pay him a compliment. He said to me on the phone, and I wrote it down because I don't want to forget it. I'm a very ambitious person, I admit, and I think I need to be reminded of this. He said, you know, Julie, In my blank number of years, I look back and I can tell you that the most important decision that you will ever make in your life is who you marry. And I'm so glad he's told me that. But I can tell you, Dennis, that in the environment that I grew up in, in the environment that I'm in now, I would say that my parents are a bit of an anomaly. I think that college and what career you choose are far more important to parents than who their kids are marrying, at least right now. I, I do think, though, that whether or not your parents are pushing college or marriage upon you, I do think at a certain point you become an adult. And although you are still their offspring, you sort of transition to becoming a peer where they're not really supposed to be in a position of telling you what to do anymore. And it's really important, in my view, to sort of look back on your upbringing and go, okay, my parents may have pushed me in this direction. Is this what I want? And charter your own course in life. And what worries me about the people around me is that I don't think that it's even occurred to them to have that kind of self-reflection and to realize I don't have to follow the prescribed path. I am my own person. I have agency over my own life. I get to decide the course of my life. And unfortunately, it seems that many of my peers are not really the protagonists in their life story. They're more like minor characters dutifully reading lines approved by a heavy-handed author. And that's part of the problem, I think, more so than the parents.

My dear viewer and listener, Now you know why I do a podcast with Julie Hartman. Julie, that, that is, that is really deep and, and important. That's what you wrote about on a completely different subject, the COVID lockdowns. That's what you wrote about in your Wall Street Journal article. Your peers, and you put it beautifully now, they're minor players in the play of their life.

Yes.

That's awesome. That is so such a beautiful metaphor. It was prescribed. Your studies were prescribed. Your extracurricular activities were prescribed to get into a good college. You got into a good college that was prescribed what you will think. That's the frightening part about your generation is it was prescribed what they think. Like, uh, like America is a racist society, or that men give birth, right? That's right.

Well, it's not— it's not even just— it doesn't even just stop there. I mean, we're also sort of prescribed with what we should do after college, and certainly at my school and many other prestigious universities— it's not just Harvard— an overwhelming number of my peers are going into finance. And, you know, there are some people on this campus who really dislike those who choose the finance route. I'm not one of those people. I do think at the end of the day, you're working hard, you're getting up every morning, you're going into work, you have a job, you're making money. Those— that's a good thing. But the thing that worries me is that I can tell you, trust me, 99% of the people at the school who are going into finance do not want to go into finance. And frankly, again, as much as I admire the work ethic and the ambition, I think it's a really cowardly decision because I just sort of want to say to my peers, we are so lucky as Harvard students. We have been given every resource, every opportunity. We have an incredible alumni network. We have a, you know, great cohort of faculty members. We have, you know, grants and fellowships and travel opportunities, and so many people here are interesting and smart and they have things going for them. And what a waste of life. And, and, you know, people love to use the, the P word, privilege. What a waste of our privilege to sort of just follow the prescribed path and just go into an of these institutions and not run with the opportunities that we have. And I think it's because many of these people, again, they can't envision a life where they make a decision that they want to do. They are really afraid of the kind of judgment that they would get or the lack of status that they would acquire if they didn't join these fancy firms. And that's a, that's a pretty bad indication of our character, let alone their prospects for happiness, right?

I mean, just to be, uh, personal, I have only done what I have wanted to do professionally and have never asked how much money will I make as a result. I did not think I would make a nice income, which I now do, and it took a while, talking about ethical monotheism. That is not the road to riches.

I remember you told me a story of when you were— sorry to interrupt you, but I have to say— when you were on a date once and someone said to you, what do you do? And you said, I travel and talk about ethical monotheism. I thought that was so funny.

Well, I didn't get the date. That's the punchline. There was no date. It was a girl I met somewhere, maybe at a bar, even though I never drank. And she said, what do you do? And I thought, oh, here's my chance to impress her. I go around the country, which in the mid— you're in your mid-20s and you go around the country lecturing is a pretty big deal. And she She was moved and she goes, "About what?" And I said, "Ethical monotheism." And she moved on.

Great pickup line.

That was the last time I said that. What did you say? I said, "To the right girl, it is a pickup line." Oh God, Julie, the right girl. Don't start me. The right girl is as rare for people who think that way as the right guy is for the girl who thinks that way.

Trust me, I know.

I know you know. That's why I said it without—

without exposing me overtly, right?

Right, exactly.

I expose myself. It's okay.

Yes, that's right. You're not hidden. By the way, you, you mentioned that it was impressive that I talked about Aaron's issues in the past and you rightly noted it's more impressive that he allows me to. I asked Aaron, can I talk about this and he said absolutely. So let me tell you an interesting thing. I have fallen in love with Aaron's friends. Aaron has what I think is the most important vehicle to happiness. He has 3 dear, deep friends in his life. Males. They're all married, as it happens, so— but it's the males he's particularly close to. I have met these guys now quite a few times. Every one of them is a sober person, recovering addict, whatever term you wish to use, and they all have the wisdom of AA, Alcoholics Anonymous, Which, before I met you, I used— I still said on the radio, I believe, and I swear before God I believe this, there is more wisdom at any AA meeting than there is on the Harvard faculty. And I learned this not from my son. I learned this 25 years ago on the radio when callers would call me and they would say something so wise. And I would almost always say, I'm just curious, did you come up with that or did you learn that? And they'd say, oh no, I was taught it, I learned it. I go, where? And they go, in AA. And it just happened so often that I thought, these people have wisdom and they're real. I love that they're real. They are not ashamed of their past. They are not— on the other hand, obviously, they think it's awful, and they are models to those who have addiction, which is a vast number of people, that you can turn your life around and be so happy and productive, which obviously is what happened here. I just want to just ask you though on that question, So do you think, we'll take your peers at your prestigious college. If I were to ask all the parents of your peers, what's more important to you, that your child get married or go to, or get into a good college? What do you think your peers' parents would answer?

It's hard. I know some of my peers' parents would answer saying marriage, and I know some others would answer with the college question or the college answer. Excuse me. I think this actually goes back to an earlier point you made, Dennis. It's not so much an either or. Of course, many parents would say both, that they would want their kid to get into a good college and also find a great partner. But it's about the extent to which the parents are talking about those things. And so if you were to rephrase the question and say, how much airtime with their children are they spending on the college question or the marriage question? Of course, the answer would be college. And, you know, I talked in the last podcast about developing good behavior through habit, developing your character through habit. And in a similar vein, I think you also develop your priorities and your values by talking about them and sort of verbally affirming them. That's one of the things that I love about Shabbat dinner. I know it seems like such a weird exit ramp that I'm going on here to bring up Judaism, but Shabbat is one of the few spaces in my life, going to your Shabbat dinners, where I've just been able to sit and talk about life and reflect on what kind of, what kinds of things I value, what's important for me and my future. And unfortunately, Dennis, many of us at this school and in the environments that I've been in, we don't have that space of reflection. And so the career and accomplish-oriented mindset just sort of perpetuates itself. And we sort of forget that this whole other life of happiness and personal fulfillment exists because we just don't hear about it.

Reason number 8553 why I do a podcast with Julie Hartman.

It's just because I brought up Shabbat, Dennis Prager.

That's funny. No, it's because of the profundity of what you just said about Shabbat. By the way, I just want people to know Julie's not Jewish, but she loves Judaism and she loves especially Shabbat, the Sabbath. So let me tell you, and it's worthy of an entire other podcast, by the way, such a big theme in my life. Friday night shaped my life probably more than any other single thing. It was the, it was the one night starting in high school was the one night I was together with my family I, they, it's a strange youth I had. I asked to be able to eat out weeknights because I wanted to go from Brooklyn to Manhattan to all sorts of places in Manhattan. And they were fine with it, but Friday night was family night. And it's exactly what you just said. It was an island of reflection on life. That's where I learned to reflect on life. It's where I learned to speak, because if I spoke up, I was the youngest, and I said something that was not particularly intelligent, they would tell me, "That made no sense, Dennis." That was the greatest thing they could have said. They didn't say, "Oh, that's a fine point, Dennis." They said, "That doesn't make any sense, Dennis." And I'd think, "Yeah, they're right. It didn't make any sense." And I learned to make sense. And I learned— we talked about heaven, talked about suffering, we talked about family, we talked about baseball, we talked about sex. Everything was at the Friday night table. And you're right, there's no equivalent outside of Shabbat.

On that point of how important it is to have your beliefs challenged, you know, one of the things, of course, we all know on college campuses there's this dogmatic way of thinking that's very left-leaning. But one of the things I've also noticed in class is that every opinion is sort of like morally neutral or valid. For example, I was—

that's right.

I was in class the other day in a foreign policy course, and we were talking about President Kennedy's Bay of Pigs invasion in 1961, I believe it was. And some girl raised her, raised her hand and she said, you know, we've never really given communism a shot. We've just always sort of invaded or tried to stop the spread of communism, but we've never really given it a shot. And of course, I'm sitting there and I'm going, what the heck is this girl talking about? I mean, we've never really given communism a shot. I mean, look at, look at all of the places that it's proliferated around the world and the millions of people that died in Great Leap Forward. And I mean millions and millions. And, you know, my professor just kind of stands there and goes, very interesting point, very interesting. And it's just, it's, I mean, we never gave communism a shot, right?

I don't understand. Cuba didn't give it a shot. The Soviet Union didn't. China didn't. North Korea didn't. North Vietnam didn't. Whatever the— what does that even mean?

And it's, it's, it's this preposterous notion that every point has validity.

Right. Well, except— no, except conservative points.

Right. Of course. Of course. Except conservative points. But, you know, all of these outrageous things, you're speaking your truth. And I mean, what— that's what I do appreciate. And I've been at your Shabbat dinners. I remember over winter break I was over there and we were talking about the Adam and Eve story and why God sort of, if you think God led Adam and Eve in the direction of eating from the tree of knowledge and all of the concepts of free will, these anyways, these big questions we're discussing. And I remember Rabbi Gottlieb was really challenging me and it was sort of daunting, you know, in a table of Jews and I'm the Gentile and we're going head to head with these rabbis about Adam and Eve. But then I go into my daily life and I'm so much more polished in my, views are so much more clearly defined. And I'm just really disgusted when I sit in these classes or when I go to dinner and everyone is so afraid to challenge because you're somehow defying someone's truth.

Good stuff. I gotta, I gotta tell him because he, he's the rabbi married my son and his—

he's wonderful—

and, and my, my new daughter-in-law. I'll end with a very touching story. I don't know if you You know the story. I called a week before the wedding, 2 weeks ago. I called up my future daughter-in-law Felicia, and this is how I put it on the phone. I said, Felicia, before I say what I'm going to say, or if I ask what I'm going to ask, please know it's totally fine whatever answer you give me. There was no pressure, not even subtly. But I do want to make an offer that if you want to call me Dad— and then immediately, Dad!

Oh, that's so cute.

Isn't that beautiful?

Just cut it and said it.

Just cut. That was the— I couldn't fit— I didn't even have to finish the question. As soon as I said, if you want to call me Dad— Dad! Nice, huh?

How is it being a father-in-law? You know, because I mentioned my sister got married 2 years ago and I love my brother-in-law. Seriously, I do. He's phenomenal. But it was a bit of an adjustment for me having, maybe because I'm younger, having someone come into my family. What is it like for you? You have 2 daughters-in-law.

Well, the answer is clear. If you love them, it's awesome. Then you just end up essentially with with two daughters, I mean, for all intents and purposes. Okay, they're called daughters-in-law, but for all intents and purposes. I also wonder, it's another interesting subject, it might be easier for the father of a boy than the father of a girl. I think letting your daughter go to another man is more wrenching than letting your son go to a woman.

We have to get my dad on this podcast.

He can tell you if that's true. Because men have said that to me. Dennis, you don't have a daughter, you have no idea. And I grant that. I have no idea.

Well, you would think it's the opposite. Isn't there that saying, a daughter's a daughter for life and a son's a son until he gets his wife? You would think it would be reversed.

Well, no, it's precisely because she is your daughter for life that you may find it wrenching to give her away. That's the point. Whereas you're dying for your son to have an independent life. That's your dream. Anyway, this was good stuff. It's always good stuff. I wish we could announce this from the, from the towers of every country. I, I think, I think what's going on in the podcast is really important. Well, you're a gift. Thank you. And do you have a sign-off message? Or, I mean, I don't mean, I mean, as in terms of commercial.

I do have a sign-off message about a, uh, great product I got in the mail. I actually— this is a funny story. It's from Eden Pure. It's a wonderful air purifier that I'm advertising. I got it a few weeks ago on Valentine's Day of all days. And it was a package that was addressed to me and it was from no one. There was no sort of return address. And I open it and it's an air purifier. And I'm thinking to myself, is this a romantic gesture that someone's making? That's hilarious. An air purifier? No, but it was, it was from EdenPURE and it wasn't a romantic gesture, but it was a great gesture for eliminating some dusty air particles in my dorm room. EdenPURE has proven Oxy technology that quickly destroys viruses, odors, mold, and more. And it freshens your home. It really does get rid of any odor like litter boxes, trash cans, cigarette smoke, dirty diapers, cooking smells, in my case, whatever interesting odors there are from living in a dorm room in close quarters with 6 other girls. And I want to tell you all that you can go to EdenPureDeals, that's EdenPureDeals.com, and use the discount code JULIE3. Again, that's JULIE3 to save $200. You can get 3 Thunderstorm air purifiers for under $200. So you're saving a lot of money, and shipping is free. And by the way, these air purifiers make no noise. They come with a 6-foot USB cord. Truly, I use the product and it's great. So again, eatimpuredeals.com, use the promo code JULIE3. And if you get it in the mail, it's not a romantic gesture, it's your air purifier.

Well done.

Thank you. Getting better at the ad reads.

That was good, Julie. I'll see you next week.

See you next week. I look forward to it.

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