Dennis & Julie: No One Is Without Religion

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

I just want to hear the music, Sean. I'm not going. I like it. Is that okay with you, Jules?

I can't hear it. I don't have a—

Oh, that is so true. Hi everybody, Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. Dennis and Julie. You know, there are now over 30,000 downloads.

I know, that's cool, as you would say.

Do I say that?

You go cool.

I do.

Yeah.

You know what's funny? When you do things that you don't know you do them.

Yes, you also go, and you'll do it this episode, you go, you'll love this.

Oh God, all that does is make me self-conscious.

I know, I get it, I get it.

No, no, that— I'm glad to know it though. I don't care.

You know what I do?

I like to know. What do you do? Oh, so much.

First of all, I say, you'll You know, I was thinking the other day, or I was thinking in the car, I was thinking in the shower. It doesn't matter that I was thinking it or where I was thinking it. Just say the damn thing.

Okay. There are details that are truly unnecessary and there are details that add color that it's nice to know where one thought— talking about that, it is amazing how I already have 10 new subjects in my brain just from the opening 30 seconds. One is about idiosyncrasies. Given what you just said, you'll love this. That's an idiosyncrasy.

Oh, I thought you were going to do it right in the middle.

No, no, no, no, no. I wasn't. I was just thinking about it. So you were saying, oh, I was thinking in the shower. I was thinking in the car, right? Did I— I don't think I told you this. I actually have a selfie. And, you know, I take, I'm sure, at least 1,000 selfies a year with strangers who meet me somewhere. And I'm very touched, by the way. People always thank me for it, and that's worthy of talking about too, my reaction to being asked to do a selfie. But any— in any event, about 8 years ago, a woman calls the show and says as follows: Dennis, just want you to know, I wake up to Hugh Hewitt and I shower with you. Is that awesome? So I totally, I was, I totally fell in love with this woman because it was so— I love when people are funny and open and all this. Well, I finally met her. Oh, after at least 8 years. No, no, met her in person, right?

I thought you— okay.

Yeah. Anyway, so I got a selfie with her and it's— see, that's a perfect example of a detail I— that when done well adds an immense amount. So if you tell me where you were thinking something, I understand. The most interesting thing though that people do with— so I was thinking to myself—

well, I do that sometimes.

Yeah, that's a funny one.

It's bad. It's so bad. I, I—

well, I don't know if it's bad. I really don't know. Well, it's stupid.

It is, folks.

Do you understand that if you were in Julie's mind for a day, you might blow your brains out?

You would, I promise you.

No, no, I have finally come to realize—

you would. Oh, it's true.

You are self-lacerating.

Yep.

It is not stupid to say, 'I was thinking to myself.' You know, when I hear others— redundant. It is redundant, not stupid.

When I hear other people say it, I may notice it, but I don't think they're stupid. When I say it, I go, 'I'm a do nothing loser. Loser.

Real loser.

So you know why I say I'm, I'm thinking about this now and I'm realizing why I identified the location at which I was thinking about something. The reason is it helps me place the thought and it helps me, for instance, if I was thinking on a walk, I kind of associate where I was with the train of thoughts. Does that make any sense?

Like, minimally. The reason I say minimally is, let's say, you know— no, no, I'm not being cute, I'm being curious. Let's say you identify the thought with a walk. Why will that help you in any other way?

Or because I'll remember the realizations I had as I kept walking down.

You will?

Yes. Maybe that's just the way it is.

So you will associate more thoughts with the locale.

Yes.

Oh, I don't do that at all. I have no idea where I came up with an idea. Under torture, I couldn't tell you.

I remember sitting, you know what I also remember? This will be very interesting to see if you can relate. I remember where things are on the page. So I just read Man's Search for Meaning and he's—

Oh, you have photographic memory.

And he says the art—

That is a total blessing.

That is, that is in the middle of the page on the left. And so I'm looking for—

my friend from high school has a photographic memory.

Yep. When I look for a quote and I remember, okay, it was on the top left, I just scan the book for the top left and then I can find it pretty easily.

This is truly a free-for-all. I am about to tell you what I consider the funniest school story because I mentioned Joseph Telushkin. I just want the you and the audience to understand how I got to this point. So he would remember, he was ordained a rabbi, Yeshiva University in New York. So I was at Columbia, he was at Yeshiva University, so we saw each other regularly in graduate school. And he told me a story then, which I can only say, had I been present when this happened, I might have choked. I might have been hospitalized from laughter. Are you ready?

Yes.

Okay, this is a true story. So at his school, again Orthodox Jewish school, at his school there was a blind rabbi. All right, so obviously he didn't know all the students in his class, but he did know one, Rabinowitz. Okay, whatever, I don't know his first name. So he taught Talmud. Talmud is extremely difficult. It's in Aramaic. It's in shorthand. There are no— there's no punctuation. It's— believe me, it is a real challenge to master the study of the Talmud. So what he did virtually every day, this blind rabbi, was go, okay, Rabinowitz, you read the text and translate. So Rabinowitz finally got tired of doing this because he was put on the spot every day, and, you know, the other kids got a free pass. So one day he goes, 'All right, Rabinowitz, read the Gemara, read the Talmud.' So Rabinowitz puts on another voice and says, 'Rabinowitz is sick today, he's not here.' So the rabbi goes Okay, you lead.

Oh no. So, so it's got his due.

No, not only got his due, had to do the whole thing in that fake voice. As I said, had I been present, I— there's no doubt I would have fallen off my chair. Those are the moments I live for where the absurd— I love the absurd. That is my favorite form of humor.

Well, you said it, and I, I've never had a dog, so I can't relate, but I can I didn't understand. You said, I love Mr. Tubbs, the new auto— I shouldn't call him the new auto, but the new, uh, bulldog. Right, that's right. That's in your home. You said, I love them because they just make me laugh. They're just absurd creatures.

That's correct.

That's what— that's what I love about animals too. There's some fish that just look so odd.

Oh, there's no—

their faces are just so weird, and they're just— isn't that— okay, now I have 10 subjects going through my brain. But what I'll say is I think God scatters clues of his existence everywhere, and I think he scatters his clues of his humor and the idea that he wants us to enjoy life. The face on the moon, for instance. The fact that fish and dogs and other animals look so— just, right, just exist. The fact that absurd things like that can happen. Even— I'm just talking specifically about nature. They're just fun. Like, I saw the other day on one of my walks, there was a, there was an acorn, it fell on a squirrel's head, and the squirrel like ran around in a circle, didn't know what the heck just hit him. It was just funny.

So you said that's God. You said a term, you said a term that I want to talk about for a moment. I tell you, it's— it even amazes us how this thing works, this Dennis and Julie.

Yeah, by the way, before this episode, he said, do you have anything on your mind? And I go, no, And then I go, do you have anything on your mind? He goes, no. And we're like, oh, well, but we knew it would be fine.

Well, it's really part of its beauty. It's so real. Anyway, okay, so that triggered a very interesting little story I'll relate to you and obviously those watching and listening. Many years ago, I was invited by a very prestigious organization, the Young Presidents Organization. Hopefully you'll start speaking for them. I'll make some calls. They are an international organization. I think— I don't remember the exact criteria. I think you have to be under 40 and own a business that makes a certain amount of money a year. By the way, you would think that they're a bunch of arrogant young people. I— they're not. I liked everybody I met in YPO, and I lectured for them for years around the world. It was really a blessing. So the YPO in Washington, D.C. invited me. They invited a Catholic priest and a Protestant minister, and to talk about religion. And they said, we're not telling you any of the questions. We're just— we just want spontaneous answers, which is my favorite thing anyway. So I arrive at this, and the opening question is probably the hardest, ironically. Well, it's one of the two hardest, and it is, so, okay, gentlemen— it was three men— why did God create humanity, or the world even? Why did God create people? Basically, it was the question. So both the priest and the minister, very eloquent, very bright two people. After all, YPO handpicked these people. And they essentially both gave the same answer, but in their own unique way, and that is, we're here to glorify God. They said it, and they said it beautifully. It was my turn. Mr. Prager. And I opened up by saying, you know, after what you just heard, this is not going to sound very impressive, but I'm going to stick to my answer anyway. I believe God made us to enjoy life. And it was clear that was not the way people had thought. Most of the people there were either Christian or Certainly not Jewish. There are a handful of Jews because Jews are a handful of the population. But, uh, you said about— when you said just now to enjoy life, that was my answer to the question of why he made us. And do you know that I would still give that answer?

Can you go on?

Yes.

Why?

Well, Because he's a good God. And, well, and by the way, with regard to glorifying God, there is nothing that so glorifies God, in my opinion, as enjoying life and believing God is the author of life. Thank you for making me. Thank you for enabling me in, in this short span of time that I'm here to have music and art and love and beauty and pain— that's part of it— why doesn't that glorify God? As I've said, you probably— I wonder if you've heard me say this, but I have said it a lot— nothing argues for atheism as effectively as an unhappy religious person. Have you ever heard me say that?

I've not.

Oh, I'm glad I'm saying it for you then. I've said this a lot: the greatest proponents of atheism are not atheists, they're unhappy religious people. And the greatest proponents of God are happy religious people.

It's true.

There's nothing more eloquent.

Unhappy atheists— or excuse me, unhappy religious people. And also angry, oppressive religious people.

That's— oh, absolutely.

You know, people that shove it.

They are atheist best friends.

Yes.

In fact, I actually would urge, uh, bad and unhappy and angry religious people to either cut it out or stop being religious. You're doing a disservice to God and religion. So I could sort— I'm going back now— I can combine their answer, glorify God, with my answer, enjoy life, because that does glorify God, which is basically what you were saying. You didn't mention— well, yeah, you were mentioning the God issue, right? You— God gave all these things for us. You, in effect, had said what my answer was. Yes, that's what prompted me to say this.

Okay, Allah, Dennis, and Julie, there are so many avenues I want to go down with your response, and I don't want to forget them. I should almost get a notepad.

Oh, I agree. I— when you're talking, you know what, I am going to do that.

I'm going to do that too. Yeah. Interlude.

Oh yeah, you got a piece of paper? No, no, it's really worth doing because it is— we both have—

I don't know if Sean's even lying.

Please give us some paper. You're just sitting there comfortably.

Do you have an extra pen?

Yes, I do.

That was honestly a stupid question to ask. Yes, that was actually stupid. Not saying I was thinking too much. Not only an extra— okay, we're good.

Extra fountain pen.

I got it. Okay. All right, D&J listeners, it'll be worth it. Just give me one second. Okay, thank you, Zach.

Very well done. Okay, go ahead. Yeah, um, no, no, it's absolutely worth doing.

We're gonna do this.

There were too many ideas that float around.

Okay, okay. Thank you, thank you, Zach. Thank you everyone who helped. Um, okay, first, with regard to your, your statement about religious people, the unhappy— and, and I added the oppressive or angry religious— are the living PR organs for atheism. So I have had the good fortune— and really, I mean the good fortune— thanks entirely, entirely to you, of entering my religious life with really good examples. I'm so glad my slate was clear so that your rational Bible could fill it. I was so glad my slate was clear so that our Shabbat dinner crew and the other religious people who I've met could fill it, because you guys are really— and I'm sorry, Juliette and Virginia, for the compliments— but you are really the epitome of what religious people should be. You are good, you are rational, you are very committed to your religion, but you're not dogmatic. You don't take it too far. You allow fun. I mean, the whole thing is just very healthy. I have my cup runneth over as far as who I've been exposed to in the religious realm. Do you think that there are large swaths of the religious who are practicing it in vain? Do you think there are large swaths who are— I'm sure there are people who are— I mean, I know there are people who are practicing it wrong, but do you— I'm not even sure how to position this question.

Oh, you positioned it perfectly.

Okay. Yes. So isn't that interesting to consider?

Interesting. It is. It's actually been preoccupying me the last half year, maybe 2 years. Right before the lockdowns— I never say before COVID I know. Right before the lockdowns, I had Jordan Peterson at a PragerU gala out, out here in, in California, in LA. So I had a dialogue with him. I— we, interestingly, we didn't put it on YouTube. He, he was an It was a very sad time for Jordan, and we felt it was because he had just learned his wife had cancer.

And oh, I didn't know that.

Oh, by the way, it was really remarkable that he even came out.

I was there that night. You would have had no—

at the gala, how tearful he was that night in answering questions.

I did see that he was a bit solemn, but frankly, I've watched him before and he's been tearful on air, so I didn't think there was anything different.

Well, anyway, I asked him, do you believe in God? I had no idea what his answer would be. I know he began— much of his life has been secular, which, by the way, you could be secular and believe in God. Secular means non-religious. But so I didn't know what the answer would be, but I knew it would be a thoughtful response. I, because I don't have a great memory for words, I have a great memory for concepts. I don't remember his words, but basically he answered, it's very difficult to say one believes in God because if you do believe in God— I'm paraphrasing completely— but if you do believe in God, the demands that makes on you are so serious. Who can—

who—

very few are adding, few people can really say they believe in God. That was the gist of what I got from his answer. Dennis Prager. It blew my mind. He was entirely right. You're essentially saying the same thing, I think. Obviously, I don't want to put words in your mouth. I would say the majority of people who say they're religious, or— and the great majority of people who say they believe in God, it makes no difference.

Would spark—

please, please, please. Yes, thank you, because I obviously want your reaction. But I was just in Orlando, Florida for 4 days speaking at the National Religious Broadcasters Convention, the largest meeting place each year of all of Christian media, which are enormous in the United States. It's an enormous world. And I wasn't— but interestingly, I was the, I was the, the most well-known Jew there, but I was not the only one. There were many religious Jews there from different organizations, which I was thrilled about. And by the way, the Christians are thrilled about, just, just for the record. Everybody was happy that they were there. But I said to them, because this is another subject we should get into once, because you're embarking on a speaking career I have always felt that if I only make an audience feel good, I have sold myself out. It's easy to make an audience feel good, but you have not been honest. And so I really adore these people, and I certainly felt that they had love for me, but I did say when I had the biggest crowd I did say, among other things that they obviously approved of, but I said, I just have to tell you, with all the talk here of, of God, Christ, religion, spirituality, whatever term you wish to use, the failure of most priests, rabbis, and ministers, the failures of most synagogues and churches during the lockdowns of this lockstep obedience to irrational secular authority doesn't speak well for the religions.

Well, you say in the opening chapters of Genesis that one of the false gods is religion and can be— can be. Yes, of course, can be. Not, not always. I mean, of course, you wouldn't write a rational Bible commentary.

Yes, that's right. Who thinks that way? And it's not a compliment to myself. People don't think that way. You can make religion a false god. And I got that, there was a rabbi, an Orthodox rabbi in Eastern Europe who said, sometimes, I'll do it the way he said it, sometimes halacha is avodah zarah. Sometimes Jewish law is idol worship. A man who completely observed Jewish law.

Right.

But you can make law into God. You can— to a false god. You can make God into a false god. You can make the church or religion into a false god. It's very, very difficult. And I'm not asking— I'm not talking about being perfect if you're a Christian or a Jew, but to take God seriously is not common.

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My first book—

I don't know.

My first book I wrote In my mid-20s. I wrote it your age.

I know, that's amazing. It makes, it makes me feel like a lazy bum. I gotta get—

I shouldn't have said that. I know, I really, I can't believe how I blew it. I know it does, which is so bizarre.

It really does.

Yeah, well, you're a woman of minimal achievement for your age. Okay, what can you do? I mean, you just got to live with it. It's such a joke that you would think that, that I had to make that joke. Okay, so The book is The Nine Questions People Ask About Judaism, and it's still the most widely read English introduction to Judaism, I'm proud to say, and it's now— it's almost 50 years ago. It's astonishing to me. I mean, literally astonishing. Yes, I wrote it on papyrus. That's correct, yes. And then I shot the scribe. With a bow and arrow, lest he reveal what was written until it was published. So, the 9 Questions People Ask About Judaism, that's the title. So one of the questions, it's so exactly what you were saying. If religion is supposed to make people better, or if Judaism is supposed to make people better, since it's about Judaism, might have been Judaism, How does one account for unethical religious Jews? I mean, if we didn't— I say we because I co-authored it with my dear friend Joseph Telushkin, the one who went to Yeshiva University and the blind rabbi.

And the one who you laughed at when he broke his foot.

No, he laughed at me.

Oh, oh.

Oh, you really got that wrong. And I didn't break it, I sprained it. Which is more painful in some ways. But in any event, it's his nervous reaction to see such things, he laughs. I don't get it, but it's a very— I rib him about that. So we wrote this because it's an honest question. If religion is supposed to make you better, how do you account for unethical religious people? So we give a whole bunch of answers. And thoughts on the question. And then we end with— you will love this, I think— we end with a plea. So if you are a religious Jew and you're not honest in business, we ask you to please become honest in business. You give Judaism a bad name. But if you're going to continue your ways in business 'Please stop being religious.' I mean, on a book introducing people to religion, asking people to stop being religious is almost heretical.

It's gutsy.

It is gutsy, and it is real. Well, real is always gutsy. That's just the way life works. So when you said about conservatives that overwhelmingly So I had a very similar experience to you, but vis-à-vis Christians, not vis-à-vis conservatives. Being raised, when I was raised, you know, shortly after World War II, I'm a baby boomer, and in a very Jewish world, there was the basic view, you would not know this, almost no non-Jew knows this. I'm not revealing some terrible secret, but it's not— it's just not known. I don't think it'll shock people, but I don't think it's well known. In any event, the general attitude towards the Christian world was, please just leave us alone. It wasn't hatred, it wasn't bigotry or anything. It was just, all we ask is please leave us alone. The general assessment of many Jews after World War II was combined with all the medieval antisemitism and then the Holocaust, which admittedly was not Christian organized but included a lot of Christians. The belief was, they're not our friends. There was a terrible motto scratch a non-Jew and you'll find an anti-Semite. I mean, I heard that as a kid. I was never told to dislike non-Jews. It was more be wary of them. Then life thrust me into being with Christians. In fact, I'm with Christians more than with Jews, as it turns out. And one after another after another, turned out to be a wonderful human being. So I had sort of what you've had vis-à-vis the conservatives, because when you grow up liberal, conservatives are selfish, they don't— they're stupid, they only care about themselves, simple-minded, simple-minded. And then you keep meeting these intellectually deep, decent human beings. So we had similar experiences.

I can't believe that you were born 3 years after the Holocaust.

I can't, I can't believe it.

I can't believe it hasn't even been 80 years since the Holocaust.

Yes, well, here, this shows you how recent it is that you're talking to someone who's pretty vibrant. I mean, I'm not, you know, I'm not right. I don't have one foot in the grave, and I was born 3 years after Auschwitz closed. Do you know that that blows my mind as much as it blows your mind?

I think a lot about how could— I mean, and I admit this is an ignorant question. I need to do more research on World War II. It's actually next on my research list. I have such a list. Oh, you may be shocked.

You'll become addicted.

I know I will. And that's actually why I've been putting it off a bit, because I want to get more of a wide range of knowledge, at least right now, because I know once I'm in, I'm going to be in for for years. Did people know about the, the camps? I mean, did, did everyday Americans open the New York Times and, and know that Auschwitz existed?

It is so eerie. I'm literally finishing a book on that very subject. Wow. Called— it's called, uh, was it The Survivor? I think I'll get the name. But anyway, that's exactly what it's dealing with. The Attempt to Get Knowledge of Auschwitz Out to the World. An incredibly heroic Pole got himself arrested by the Nazis to get into Auschwitz to reveal what is going on there.

Oh my God, I have to read this book.

Oh, you do. It's, it's riveting. I'm just about finished. They would send out the information 'Just the other day, 2,000 Jews were gassed.' Just simple as that. I mean, factual. The guy saw it. He saw the crematoria. 'Oh, there's shipment from Jews from—' What is the latest one I just read? 'From Greece.' You know, 'Thousands of Jews from Greece just came in by train. From Slovakia. From the Netherlands.' By the way, it's very depressing, just for the record. And by the way, I'm sorry to add this, but I think it's important that people know, because you can't turn your way— your eyes away from evil. People don't know that death by gassing was torture. If you didn't breathe in and die, I know it took like 25 minutes of your lungs burning. People bit into one another as they were dying. I won't go further. I just want people to understand the horror of the Holocaust is not just number of deaths. It's the way in which they died and the humiliation. Do you know that almost every Jew killed was killed naked? Nobody thinks about that. That's why I get angry at people who say the human nature is basically good. I know. I'm angry at them.

Well, there is a reason to feel anger at that.

Yes. So anyway, yes, so they got it out, and here was what basically— it's very depressing. I knew this, but this book gives— really fills it out with all the knowledge. The BBC would rarely report it. Uh, the, the English government and the American government refused profound requests to bomb the, the railway leading to Auschwitz. Can you realize if that were done the staggering number of lives that would have been saved, and the joy it would have brought the inmates to know that the world gave a damn about them. But the world didn't give a damn about them. There was just the sense— listen, when Jews would meet with President Roosevelt, for example, and the same thing in England, the answer was the same. The best thing we could do for the Jews is win the war. So we just can't send any, any pilots right now over to Auschwitz.

Wow. So, so Americans did know about it?

Well, it was minimally, minimally reported. Oh, okay.

This leads us into a whole other subject, and I have so many other notes about what you were saying before, but I, I do feel that we should segue so I don't forget this. I think about this a lot. What would I do if I were an American during the Holocaust? I'm not talking about if I were a German or a Pole or, you know, if I were right in there. I know, or I certainly hope, I shouldn't say I know, but I say with near confidence that I would hide Jews or try to help. I believe you would. And I believe you would too. And I just, I couldn't live with myself if I did it. That's right. It would just be in my nature to do it. And I'm not— that sounded so like, I know I would do the right thing.

You don't know if you'd do the right thing. You don't know. But if I had to bet on you, I would bet on you. Well, thank you.

Well, no, it's not even a compliment. I know, you're right.

That's the way you are.

Yes, it is. Okay. Yes, you're right. But I think about being an American during the Holocaust. What is your responsibility to other people who are you know, thousands of miles away from you. I mean, look at right now, there's the Uyghur massacre going on in China, which is a Holocaust-like event in that region of the world where millions and millions and millions of Muslims are going to these concentration camps, are being forcibly put there. Millions? Yes. Oh yeah. Yeah.

I should know. I, I, I am guilty in not, uh, pursuing that knowledge more.

Right.

And, and, but I will tell you this, when you say about strangers, I will tell you And it's in the LA Times when they still would actually publish me and other conservatives, and they published me a lot in the LA Times for years. So I wrote a piece when I learned about Pol Pot and how Cambodians— I mean, Pol Pot murdered a quarter of his own, a quarter of his own population. And I wrote a cry from the heart. What is the difference in ignoring this than ignoring what happened to the Jews? And I write this as a Jew. Yes. So I felt that very keenly, though I did not know one Cambodian. There is no difference.

A person is a person, you know. And so I feel stuck because we think, oh my gosh, all these Americans may have known about Auschwitz during the war and they didn't do anything. Well, we know about the Uyghur Muslim concentration camps, and we're not doing diddly either. And should we? I mean, I really don't know the answer, but it— but I think about it. Well, what is— what is your responsibility?

At the very minimum, if you can avoid it, don't buy Chinese stuff, right? I mean, that, that's even aside from the Uyghurs. I mean, it's because they— of course, yes, it's a very, very frightening government. Very frightening government. Can I note something I noted?

Now we're new. You can note something you've noted.

Julie noted. So I actually made two of the points that I wrote. Yes, good. Based on things you said, I just wanted to note, because I don't think you've ever mentioned it because you've been hesitant for reasons that are to your credit, but I'll mention a conservative, one of the most important alive who struck you as an incredibly wonderful human being? Clarence Thomas.

I don't discuss that publicly because, A, I don't want to come across as a bragger, and B, I don't want Justice Thomas to think that I would, you know, use— yes, use his name to go brag.

That's why I raised it. And you're— and I know you're not.

I'm glad that you raised it because I'll tell you a story actually about, about that day that I met him, which was one of the best days. I actually, I feel, I feel tears coming up my face because it was such a, such a meaningful experience meeting him. And he's just, just one of the most innately good people I've ever met in my life. And we had so much fun and, and he's so funny and just a wonderful person. And so I leave the Supreme Court. I'm outside the court. I, of course, first I call you to tell you, you know, how, how much fun it was. And then I called my uncle with whom I'm very close. You've met my uncle. He's conservative. And I will never ever forget this moment. I just was, was pouring my heart out to my uncle telling him what, what a decent, just great human being I was sitting across from. Forget, I mean, of course he's brilliant, all of those things, but just, he, he's like walking sunshine. I know that sounds really corny, but he really is. You know, you've, you've met him. And my, I said, he is just the, the one of the best people I've ever met. And my uncle said to me on the phone back, he said, now you see why it's so important for them to destroy him. Mm-hmm. Them meaning the left. No, no, he's right. I never forgot that moment. Yeah. It's so true. And I think about that whenever I see, you know, there was this smear campaign in the, in the, um, in the papers about Clarence Thomas and supposedly he had these ethics violations because he went on a private jet with Harlan Crow. The whole thing's ridiculous. He asked the Supreme Court for if he if they needed to report anything. They said no. Also, the ethics rules at the time at which those hospitality occurrences happened, there was— the rule was if that person does not have any relation to a past, present, or future case, you don't need to report it. He was totally in the clear, and yet they go on such a big campaign to smear him. Look at what they did to him in the '90s with Anita Hill. It's disgusting. And isn't it interesting we live in this world where we have a good, good person, Justice Thomas, who is trying to do good in the world. It shouldn't even matter that he's Black, but it matters for the left. Here we have a Black man that is in this position of power trying to do good, and all they do is spend their time trying to tear someone like that down. And then they protect the sex trafficking corrupt Hunter Biden and the Biden family, who are actively trying to do bad. I mean, what kind of world do we live in? There's evil everywhere.

Look, I—

Sorry, that was a tangent. But yes, that's just to say Justice Thomas was the best person I've ever met in my life.

It's ultimately a puzzle, the left, to prefer ugly over beauty. Yes. To prefer chaos over order. There's no part of me— there are parts of me that are dark. That's true for every human being. And very— that's why long ago I realized it's behavior that matters. And so I didn't trouble myself over those, those dark parts. Would I like to rob a bank? I guess under ideal circumstances, if I had no money or I had little money. Nobody has no money. You know, I could imagine, but I wouldn't do it because I have a value system and God said do not steal, so it ends the issue. But I, so I understand, and my point is I understand bank robbers. I understand a lot of crimes. I don't understand the left. I don't understand why ugly paintings go for millions of dollars. No, no, not just ugly, meaningless, when there is awesome art Why is beauty a sin? Why is everything that uplifts corny and to be avoided? What is the appeal of saying there are more than two sexes? What is the appeal? Aside from being a lie, are there more than two sexes in the cow-bull world? No. But only in the humans? Aren't we animals? The animal kingdom— yes, they're right, but fine, then the animal kingdom has two sexes. It's just the way it works, except for the human animal, right? All of a sudden they made it— they've made this distinction. So it's— if you look at modern art, if you look at modern— if you listen to modern music, modern architecture, I mean, it's the love of the ugly over the beautiful. That's what I'm saying. That I don't understand. I understand bank robbing. That's what I don't understand.

You raise such a good point, and it's one I think of often. I don't understand the left at all either. And I want to get more into this because it really does perplex me. It's— look, I don't want to— I'm hesitating whether to say this. And then of course it's Dennis and Julie. So when you're hesitating, you say it. But it's It's a bit satanic. And I'm not, I'm not not putting that out there as a religious term, but I also kind of am. It's just there's so much confusion. It's so bizarre. And anyway, that's just my very not eloquent way of saying I agree with you. The thing that I contemplate, and I say, I've said it when I guest hosted for you recently, which by the way, so fun. I love guest hosting for you. I said, there are so many issues in life. I mean, there are so many challenges, tragedies, hardships, difficulties, and yet the left contrives them. Life is hard enough, and they're trying to make life harder by convincing people that racism is rampant and around every corner, that transphobia is rampant and around every corner, that climate change is going to end the world. They just, they make make life harder. It's hard enough to be an 8th grader, you know. You're going— your, your body's changing, you're going through puberty, friendships are difficult. I was in 8th grade. It's not fun being a girl at that time. And then they just make it harder by, by putting you in front of a drag queen who's giving— who's reading stories to you, or putting you in front of teachers that tell you, well, you may not be your gender. These, these, these discomforts that you're feeling, it actually isn't just regular puberty. It could be that you're of the opposite sex. They make life, which is already difficult, so much harder. And that, that really confuses me because, you know, people talk about that we act in our best interest, and that's acting not in accordance with your, with your self-interest. Your self-interest should be trying to make life easier for yourself, not making life harder. That's my first point. My second point is to use the same word, hard. Is it that hard to just follow the law? You know, send in your homework on time, identify with your sex, you know, work hard at your job, get married. These— we're not— we conservatives, when we talk about certain values, we're not asking people to become Olympic runners, you know. Is it, is it that hard just to live a normal law-abiding life? Apparently for them it is. Just when you thought it couldn't get any better, Mike Lindell with MyPillow is launching the MyPillow 2.0. When Mike invented MyPillow, it did everything you could want in a pillow. Now, nearly 20 years later, he discovered a new technology that makes it better. Now the MyPillow 2.0 has the patented adjustable fill of the original MyPillow, and with a brand new fabric that is made with a temperature-regulating thread, the MyPillow 2.0 is one of the softest, smoothest, and coolest pillows you'll own. For our listeners, the MyPillow 2.0 is buy one, get one free with the promo code Hartman. MyPillow 2.0's temperature regulating technology is 100% made in the USA and comes with a 10-year warranty and a 60-day money-back guarantee. Just go to mypillow.com, click on the radio listener square to get the buy one, get one free offer. Enter the promo code Hartman or call 1-800-566-6745 to get your MyPillow 2.0s now.

Wow. Okay, a few comments. Thank God I took notes. I'll start with your last one. Is it that hard? So most of my life I have said the notion that God wants us to be good bores most people. Goodness, the normal idea of goodness as we have had it in the past, bores even many religious people, not just the secular left. So we'll start with the secular left, asking people, look, just how about this? Graduate high school, get a job, get married, and then have children once you're married. Doesn't sound that hard, does it? And yet there is a professor at the University of Pennsylvania Law School who wrote a column for the Philadelphia Inquirer about 5 years ago just saying that. Why don't we just offer these middle-class bourgeois values. Yes. And she gave that what they were, those four. And hundreds of University of Pennsylvania professors have demanded that she not teach introductory courses so as not to poison the minds of Penn law students. She is hated at the University of Pennsylvania. Even religious people find the idea that God— that the basic religious demand is God wants us to be good. Boring. And that's why so much of religion is added stuff in Judaism and Christianity. What do you mean by that? Well, we're going to get into the weeds if we— if I I will get into it with you, just not today. Okay. But I will just tell you, there is a law in Deuteronomy. I have given you this law, do not add and do not subtract. God, who I think is the ultimate author of the Torah, the first 5 books, is aware of the human desire to add. All right, add, okay. I'll take a benign one where there are groups that would say it is— it's a sin. It's a sin to dance, or it's a sin to smoke, or it's a sin to gamble. And they, they do so because they want people to be pure rather than just quote-unquote just good. I said in the debate that I had with a religious individual a couple of months ago that I'm not in the business of trying to make people into saints. I'm in the business of trying to make people good. And I believe that that's what really God wants from us. There will be individuals who will reach some— for example, I'll give you another example. So I am getting not fully into the weeds, but partially. So there is a tradition in both Judaism and Christianity. I'm completely fair on these matters because I don't have an axe to grind. And in Christianity, there was a massive, massive monastic ideal that that in some ways it's a truly religious life is one of prayer, that much of the day is spent in prayer. So there's a— by the way, and there is a true parallel in Judaism where among some very religious Jews, the ideal life is all-day religious text study, usually Talmud, but, but it's religious text study. I don't believe in either of them. I, I— goodness is much more important than all-day prayer or all-day study. Being a good person, getting out into the world, which means, by the way, that you will get a little dirty because there's mud out there. So if you want to stay pure, you, you retreat from the world into your study hall in Judaism or in, into your monastery, uh, in, uh, in at least Catholicism. Obviously there are no Protestant monasteries, but, uh, and this is said as a big supporter of both of the religions, obviously, but I, I I, I know for a fact that the idea that God wants us to be good— ethical monotheism, which you adore, one reason number 842, I adore you— uh, is not popular. It doesn't sound all that religious. Hmm. What did you write?

It's going to take us on a different—

Oh, you have a different tangent?

It's going to take us— Okay, but what—

So wait, so then let me finish the point. You were saying you didn't understand the left. That's how I got onto this. That's what I want to continue. That's right. Yes. So the left is a perfect mirror image of what I just described in religious life. Just be good is boring. I have to, I have to stop using anything from a fossil fuel. I have to— I can't use carbon-based energy, even though that has made everything that is good in the, in the world possible. Hospitals, schools, medicine, everything. Without that, we would still be living in the Middle Ages. And yet we are told, oh, you want to be a really good person, then here they just— there's a law I read about just this, just coming on the plane this week. They're banning Skittles. They are? Yes. In high schools or in elementary. They're banning chocolate milk. I know chocolate milk and this, right? Yes. Skittles. And they said why? And they read some of the ingredients. See, it is not enough to be a good person. You must be super pure, just as much in secular left as in religious right. Super pure. A pure person doesn't have Skittles because it has— and then they listed some ingredients, including red dye number 3. Who dies of red dye number 3? I know, I know. So it's like, my life is empty, I will fill it with microaggression battles. Totally. It's boredom.

And this is Nietzsche 101, who I've been studying a lot recently, by the way. I'm having Spencer Klavan on my show to talk about Nietzsche. I'm so excited. Just a, just a little nerd.

Isn't that a delight?

Oh, it's such a delight. And by— and talk about another doll. Okay, I email him. Tangent, I want to get back onto this Skittles thing, so make sure I don't forget. I email him to invite him on my show, Timeless. I write, I said, your book, How to Save the West, really influenced me, and particularly it was spiritually edifying for me. It was the nudge that I needed to take religion all the more seriously. Because anyone who's read the book knows what I'm talking about. He ends by saying the best thing that you can do for yourself, for others, is build your relationship with God. And I think I needed that nudge a bit because I've been focusing on work. You know what he writes back? First of all, he goes, Julie, it's an honor and a delight to get your email. Of course I would come onto your show, Timeless. Thank you so much for your appreciation for my book. I'm so glad that my book was spiritually edifying to you, but I cannot take the credit. Glory be to God. Sincerely, Spencer Klaven. Who— I mean, I'm sorry to go here, but do you think if I wrote a Hollywood actor or actress, could you be on with this, and they'd go, uh, maybe my assistant will contact me?

You know, like, thanks for watching my work. I'll be at a Hollywood awards show that day.

It won't work until February of 2025, but, uh, you The difference, the difference is just astounding. Anyway, I just had to give Spencer Klavan a little shout out. This is Nietzsche 101. Nietzsche says, and by the way, there are parts I despise about Nietzsche and there's parts that I think he's eerily brilliant. He says that the modern day left, of course he was writing in the 19th century, so he would say it all the more now, they are perversions of religious ideologies. Everything they claim to hate about religion, they are. And this is the G.K. Chesterton point, and this is the Pragerian point. No one is without religion. The left is a religion. They think they're secular. They think they're atheist. No, they just worship the Democratic Party and wokeism. That is totally the truth. Well, you said earlier in this discussion that you think that God wants us to enjoy life. And when you were saying that, one of the things that I wrote down is Your definition of enjoying life is the good definition. You mentioned beauty, love, art, literature, music. A lot of people, to your point just now, think that stuff is terribly boring. They think enjoying life means drinking, drugs, and wreaking havoc. There's a, there's an urge in the human being towards chaos. And I think that's what this Skittles BS thing is. It's this thinking that the conventional parts of life— getting married, having a family, attending your church, etc.— are super boring. And so then you have to do these things in order to make your life exciting.

Yeah, that's right. I was going to mention to you, because you had mentioned racism and the left, so Have you heard my theory on microaggressions and the like?

No, probably, actually, probably.

Yeah, yeah, you probably did, but it's worth noting. According to the University of California, Stanford University, I mean, this is actually printed, one could find this on the internet. To say, for example, they give a whole series of racist statements. It is the ideal is to be colorblind. That is considered racist. Of course, it's the opposite of right. That's the whole point. Non-racism means I don't give a damn about your color. That's what it means. No matter how often they will say other, no matter how often they say men give birth, I know men don't give birth. No matter how often they say colorblind is racist, I know that colorblind is the ideal, that I don't care about your color. End of issue. I don't judge you by it. So why do they make up— why are there so many race hoaxes? There's so many. I mean, probably well over 100 documented, maybe 200, 300, where, you know, there will be some— the N-word on a black college kid's dorm door, but it's probably written by either a white leftist or a black, usually a black Why? There's so little racism that they have to invent it. That's the reason for the hoax. Microaggressions are a race hoax. Yep. That's all they are. Said. That's exactly what they are. Well said.

That is— can you imagine if the left— well, they're the ones that are making it happen, but liberals saw this for what it really is. You're right. If you're a true liberal, if you're a true anti-racist liberal, you would see through this. You would see that the left is so racist. You're exactly right. Microaggressions are race hoaxes. Right. And why do they have them?

Because there's so little real racism. Of course, it gives their bored lives meaning to fight ghosts. Exactly.

Do you think women in Iran are talking about how the word freshman is offensive because it has the word man in it? No, they're getting executed for wearing the Hugh Johns wrongly. You got it. No, it's privilege. That's why, and a little gutsy for me to say it, I admit, but again, it's D&J. The reason why I kind of labeled it satanic, take the religion, the religious connotations of Satan out of it, the definition of Satanism is taking something good and flipping it and making it bad. And every single way, in every single way, that's what the left does. Literally with everything. Everything is an inversion.

Isn't that weird? Everything is an inversion.

Every single thing is an inversion. You know, like they claim to be pro-women, but then they're supporting men. Think about this. Men are dressing up as women, pretending to be women, taking women's jobs, stealing women's trophies, entering women's prisons and raping them.

I mean, exposing themselves in girls' locker rooms. Girls, not just women's.

Everything is an inversion. Climate change. Oh, climate change is this big threat. Meanwhile, we're going to go to electric-powered vehicles where you have to mine to get the minerals for the battery in the vehicles and then plug your Tesla into a charger that connects to electricity. Yes, that's right. Everything is an inversion.

Everything is an inverse.

Is it just confusion or is it—

is it the boredom issue is huge? Well, yes, but it gives them meaning. They're fighting. I've said I wrote a piece during the massive demonstrations of statues. Yes. In 2020. I think the title was The Left Fights Statues, The Right Fights Evil. Hmm. Yeah, they don't fight evil. That was my second revelation in my life as a kid, that I wasn't a leftist. I still thought I was a liberal and a Democrat, and I was both. And the first one was poverty causes crime. And I said, really, they believe that? I knew at least at 13 that it was nonsense. Bad values cause crime. Because my grandparents, who were very poor, would not have committed crimes. So I knew, I knew it was a lie. And the, the second one— what were we just talking? Because I want inversions. I know, but there was a second example of their, their lies. Yes, doesn't matter. They're everywhere. No, no, no, it is an argument that they gave. That's, that's the key. That's what I wanted to, uh, To you, to use— no, no, no, no. Yes. So, oh yes, thank you. They fight statues, we fight evil. That, that's what— that was what led me to this. The second reason I knew I wasn't a leftist is that they didn't hate communism, they hated anti-communists. And I thought, I cannot be on that side because I hate evil. The left does not hate evil, it hates the right.

I think the best— one of the best quotes ever, ever to exist is Viktor Frankl's, there are only two races, the decent and indecent.

That is my motto.

Okay, now I'm forgetting, you were just saying that you didn't Oh gosh, isn't it awful when you forget?

Were you going to say this? It only happens on our thing. That's what's so funny.

I remember. I remember. So I did this episode recently on my show, a history episode on China, and it made me think of it when you said that the left doesn't hate communism. You know what's fascinating to consider? Communist China is more conservative than non-communist America. This is what the left doesn't understand. Chinese or communist China uses progressivism as a weapon. They are not the progressive people that they claim to be. They use progressivism as a weapon to undermine the United States through TikTok, through WeChat, through all of their propaganda that they plant. They are pushing, and I'm not trying to entirely blame China, a lot of this is a homegrown thing, of sadly, but they're pushing this transgender social craziness onto us. They're pushing this microaggression police your words onto us. They don't allow that stuff to happen in communist China, and they're communist China. They're supposedly— doesn't get more progressive than communism, and they don't allow the transgender stuff to go on in communist China. Why? Because they see that the evil— they actually The communists in China actually realize the evil of true progressivism.

Well, this is Putin's argument. And by the way, I am one of the conservatives who does support, right, supporting Ukraine. So I just want to make that clear. And I think that the man is an evil human being, Putin. But I believe that truth is more important than any other single thing. And his critique of the West as decadent is accurate. Yep. His solution is evil, right? But his critique has accuracy. And the— it's— you're saying it's ironic, and it is ironic. Here is this former KGB officer speaking about how awful the left is in the West. Yep. Yep, that's what it amounts to.

Yeah, they, they, they know the real— they are aware of the real evils of leftism. That's why they shield some parts of it in their own population and try to force it upon us and criticize it when we do it.

That's right. Well, that's why it's important to be healthy.

Oh yeah, it's true, but it's not common.

No, it's not.

We should do another one. What is wrong—

you— I'll just end with this because you asked this so beautifully, something to the effect, so what's wrong with getting a job, getting married, having children? Why is that so boring? That was basically what you— why is beauty boring? I know, and I don't get it. I'll tell you what's boring. The cockamamie architecture that is out there that is meaningless. I find meaningless boring. I find meaning fascinating.

Look, it's cynical but also hopeful. I think a lot of people have to try out, if you will, the bad life in order to realize that the good life isn't so boring. And actually gives you the infrastructure to make life very interesting. G.K. Chesterton has this quote. I know I quote him a lot, I'm sorry, but he says, think about children playing on an island or a big circular island that's up on a cliff. So it's raised up really high. Think about children playing on that. If there's a fence around the circle of that island, the children will play all around the field. They'll go to the bounds of the island without falling off because they'll feel they will feel free to play knowing that they're within boundaries. But think about if that island that was raised up had no boundaries. They would huddle in the middle. That's right. They would be so afraid. That's right. That's to me the perfect way of describing what, what the traditional life provides you with.

That's why parents, you got to give your kids boundaries.

Yes, it provides you with the boundaries so that you can run abound and have fun. If you have no boundaries, you huddle in the middle like a Scared animal.

Where did he write that?

Orthodoxy. One of my favorite books ever. 100 pages. So worth it. So worth it. Oh my gosh. That's a nut. When you read a good book, how can you think that going to a museum and staring at a blank, one of these modern art crap is, is meaning.

So what I, from, from college on, maybe high school, I defined wealthy as buying all the music and books I wanted. That was my definition of being wealthy. That's why I never pursued money, which was, by the way, I think somewhat of a mistake. It turns out I'm blessed, but I'm lucky that it turned out that way. But I never thought about money if I could get all the music, first records, then CDs that I wanted and all the books. And you know how I determined if I'd get a book? This is so up your alley, that's why I'm laughing inside anyway. My view was, if this book gives me one important insight into life, it is worth every penny I spent.

Of course, definitely. By the way though, I will say, and this is a whole other episode that we could do, there are some books that they could just cut down by two-thirds and get their point across.

Oh my God, that's true.

I would love to talk to some publishers. I mean, you know a lot of publishers. Maybe you can hook me up with one who I can just ask this question to. If you can convey your thoughts in 100 pages, why do these people spend 300?

Well, also, all biographies these days are way too long. Yes. I don't— I don't want to know what he ate for lunch that day.

Yes, exactly.

They do to impress other academics with how much research they've done. There is no other reason. All— well, there might be another reason. They don't know what's important. Historians of the past didn't believe I needed to tell every detail. This is what is important to understand Lincoln. This is what is important to understand Churchill. Yeah, that's an issue. I couldn't— so what I do is if I'm listening on Audible, as I put it on twice. That's what I do too, or 2.5 speed, just to get through it.

Dennis, how do they reach us?

By having you now announce it.

Oh, clever, I'll admit. You got to admit. Julie at julie-hartman.com. You can also follow me at Julie R Hartman on Instagram and Twitter. And you can check out more Dennis and Julies on this YouTube page. Just hit the subscribe button down below so that so that you can get notified every time a new video gets posted. I'm sorry, I can't hide my discomfort in encouraging people to subscribe. I hate doing it. I feel so like—

I hate it too.

I feel like I'm asking someone to like give me money. That's right.

But, but you're not— Subscribe. Well, but you're not asking for a penny. I know. And it's good for people. I know. And they should, they should send it off to others.

I'm just so honest on this show.

I really should just move on, but I— we both love it. It's good. Yeah.

Anyway, shalom everyone. See you soon.

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