Dennis & Julie: Seeds of Division

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hello everybody, welcome to Dennis and Julie. I'm Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. I don't know, what is your official title? Co-host? Co-conspirator, dialoguee.

I'll take any.

Any of them are good. Folks, I have never co-hosted in 40 years of radio, so it took a very special individual and for me to believe that I could even enrich my show further by having this person. The years gap between us and the gender gap between us are pretty big, and that makes it all the more fascinating to have these dialogues. This is the 6th episode, and I strongly recommend that you watch the previous 5 because I don't believe that they're dated, even if they discuss something that is happening at the time. So welcome to Dennis and Julie. Take it away, Julie.

Hello everyone. I'm so happy to be back this week. I want to thank you all for writing into my website, which is julie-hartman.com for those of you who don't know. We've gotten a ton of questions. And Dennis, I feel like every week I've promised our listeners that we would read some aloud and then our conversation got carried away. So I'm going to do that right now. It is really a priority of mine today. But I'm also going to infuse a question that I have for you, Dennis, that's inspired by a conversation I had a few days ago with my uncle. And we got a similar question from one of our listeners named Mike, who is from Charleston, South Carolina. So shout out to Mike. Thank you for writing. So the other day, I was on the phone with my uncle, who is also a conservative, very, very smart man. And I was talking to him about how scared I am by this moment in American history, and just all of the irrationality and madness and wokeism that I see around me. And I said to him, you know, this feels really bad. Do you see it the way I see it? Are you as scared as I am? And he said to me, you know, Julie, I get where you're coming from, but I'm not as pessimistic as you are because unlike you, I lived through the Vietnam War, I lived through the 1960s, and those were some very tumultuous times that we Americans didn't think that we could get through. And at the end of the day, we did get through them. And he said, I have confidence that we will get through this moment. And I still disagree with him, Dennis. I do think there is something unfortunately uniquely perilous about today and just the extent of Orwellian irrationality that we are seeing. And now I want to bring in Mike's question, which I think dovetails very nicely with this topic. He wrote in and he said something very similar about how he also fears Where this madness is going, and he was asking about our predictions for the future, how we may see this being resolved or not resolved. And Dennis, you just mentioned our age gap. You have a lot more years and wisdom on you than, than I do. You lived through the Vietnam War in the '60s. Tell me, what is your take on this? Is this moment worse?

There, there are two issues here why I don't agree with your uncle, with With obvious respect, and I may well be wrong, but I'll tell you why I don't agree with him. First, yes, it is worse. That you, even you know, you didn't have to live through that. I don't believe one has to have lived through X to have an opinion on X. I didn't live through World War II. I wasn't born yet, but I have opinions about it. So That's the, the lesser of my two responses. The bigger one is I don't agree with your uncle's premise. We didn't get through the '60s. He's wrong. If we got through the '60s, we wouldn't be in the 2020s. This is the direct result of the '60s. The '60s began the decimation of this country's culture. That I did live through. I was young, actually I was your age, and I saw it happening. I went to Columbia, so at Columbia we had riots. Kids took over, I'll never forget this, kids took over professors' offices and the president or the dean of Columbia allowed the rioters to sit in his office. I think they served them coffee. And I remember thinking, do you have to be a coward in order to be a college administrator? To which the answer is resolutely yes. You are disqualified from being a dean or a president of a university if you're courageous. There are very few exceptions, and for some reason they sneak through the process and were hired. So please understand, it all— the rot began. I mean, even began before the '60s, because the '60s, that's my generation, baby boomers. We were educated by people who already were telling us men and women are basically the same. I learned that. I learned that men— there's no difference between men and women. I learned that at Columbia, and I knew it was absurd when I was at Columbia. So your uncle's supposition that we got through it is not one I share. That's my first response. So feel free to react, and then I'll take the second one, that it is worse today.

I agree with you. I think that the '60s, we see the remnants of the '60s today, or we see the results of what happened then. And I agree with you that I think This is actually something, Dennis, I talked about when I guest hosted for you back in August, which, by the way, was one of the biggest honors of my life, sitting in to guest host for you while you were in Hungary. I talked about this very subject, which is where did this rot come from? And I think that a lot of people identify the 1960s, but you're right to say that it happened before. One of the most influential books on my thinking was Paul Johnson's Modern Times, which I believe your producer, Alan Estrin, as you would call him, the living martyr, recommended to me. And he just wove this fascinating argument. He identified Albert Einstein's theory of relativity, which came onto the scene in the early 1900s, which completely shook up people's understandings of the universe because it disproved Newton's laws of physics. And it was like back then the equivalent of us discovering that there was life on another planet today. That is how much it radically transformed people's thinking. And he made this argument that when you have such a revolutionary scientific discovery like Einstein's, it bleeds into the social realm too, because people probably thought to themselves, well, if what I thought about the way the world works is so different and untrue, what else in my life that I took to be established is different and untrue? And I think that's where we start seeing the decline of religion and skepticism towards religion, which you really identify as a main cause of this societal rot that we're seeing. And I think all of those sort of seeds were laid and it culminated in the 1960s with such an outburst. And that momentum that started in the '60s has continued to today. I'm Julie Hartnett. And as some of you may know, I'm finishing up my degree at Harvard right now, which I'm very proud of. But I want to tell you about another great college, the King's College in New York City. Parents, I know that it can be stressful watching your child go to college with, with all of its uncertainties. The King's College will set your child up for success. This Christian liberal arts college offers classes in New York City as well as online and provides a disciplined curriculum with a Christian worldview. With a strong community and distinguished faculty, the King's College has the support system to shape students into future leaders who are good, brave, and ready to engage with the cultural issues of today. Book a campus tour or find out more at tkc.edu today.

So that is my message. Just a word on Paul Johnson in Modern Times, which is a classic, to make it even clearer, if I may, what What Johnson points out is that people applied scientific relativism, which—

To morality.

That's right. Just as there's scientific relativism, there's moral relativism. That was the second big shakeup, of course. Darwin was the first. You really descended from animals. You're not descended. You're not created ex nihilo by God. And, and nor were the animals created by God. Nothing was created by God. Everything you see that you believed before is nonsense. As you pointed out, people— this stuff has ramifications. So my answer to your original question is, uh, we didn't get through the '60s, so I don't, I don't buy that. And having said that, even worse, yes, it is worse today. Nobody said in the 1960s, men give birth. Nobody in the 1960s said we should change the science curricula so as to make it more equitable in outcomes. Nobody at United Airlines said we're going to reserve 50% of our airplane pilot spots to women and minorities. Stating by doing that categorically that if 50% have already been filled by white males, even if the other selections are not as qualitatively good, we will make them pilots. I, if they do start that, I will burn my United frequent flyer card and I have I believe I have a million miles on United. Why would I fly an airline that does not choose its pilots based on excellence? So there is a massive amount that is new today. The assault on truth is even worse. I hate saying this to somebody your age, which brings me to this observation. I think your generation is the first in American history to be pessimistic. This— my generation, your uncle's generation, whatever age he was, they were not pessimists. They were— they might have been complainers, they might have even been nihilists, but they weren't pessimists. And I— you have every reason to be pessimistic given what you're told. First of all, You're told, you're, as I so often note on my radio show, kids today are told your past stinks, America has always been awful, and your future stinks because you may not have a future, you will die of carbon emissions. So it's why so many people under 40 are not having children. Why bring them into a world in which they will die from heat? So, uh, that's, that's distressing when young people who are naturally optimistic aren't. Something bad has happened.

Yes, I would say that I am very pessimistic, and I'm pessimistic even though I'm a happy person. I'm pessimistic because so many other people who I'm seeing are pessimistic. They think that they live in a systemically racist society, as you just said. They think that the world is going to end. They can't They have no ability to stand up to the nonsense that we see. I mean, I was just reading the other day that Merrick Garland referred to some of the parents who have stood up, as we've seen on the news, so bravely stood up in school board meetings against critical race theory. He referred to them as domestic terrorists. And I'm looking around at people and no one is willing to stand up to it. So yes, The moment is, I think, much worse and much different than the '60s. This is, this is sort of transitioning into Mike's question. Dennis, I have a very hard time believing that we can go back on some of these radical changes that have been made without severe upheaval. I hope that I'm wrong, and I'm certainly not, you know, calling for violence or upheaval of any kind, but I'm just saying I don't see how this ends well. And I think that this moment is just— it's almost like a 1775 or an 1861 moment. It just seems so stark to me. And tell me if I'm being dramatic. But again, I look around and we just don't seem to agree on anything. And it goes beyond just politics. We don't agree on music. We don't agree on religion. We don't agree on art. On culture, there are just so many vast differences between the way people on two ends of the— or the two sides of the political aisle see the world. And I really don't know how that can be reconciled. Now, of course, there are organizations like PragerU which have done incredible work. Again, I am a testament to that. I was a liberal not too long ago, and I saw the light through finding your wonderful organization. So I do have hope that if people are exposed to this material, then they'll see it. But again, there are just such stark differences, and I'm wondering, how do you see this playing out? Do you think that there's hope that we can overcome this moment?

So whenever I'm asked, Dennis, do you, do you think there's hope? Julie, forgive me, I have to tell you what my answer is in my brain, even if I don't always say it. I often say it, but I will now. It's so dark, it's funny. I used to go to Israel every year in my 20s. Getting your age, I went every summer. I would go to Israel. I would go around the world because I wanted to see every country. I've seen 130, which is not all, but it's well on my way. And I had that goal already at the age of 18. I wanted to see every country. So I'd go somewhere in the world and end my trip going to Israel. I had friends there on a kibbutz and I would visit them. So then I lived with a mentor of mine who was a rabbi named Pinchas Peli, and I would stay at his home. And he told me a story one day. I don't know how it arose, but it's great. I remember where he told it, at a gas station. He said, Dennis, in the early days of Israel, when it was really socialist, you had to get your telephone from the Ministry of Communications. So I went to the ministry and I said, I ordered my phone. I said, in how long is the phone coming? The guy said, 6 months. And I said, sir, is there any hope that I can get it sooner? And the man said, sir, there's always hope. There's no chance.

Very diplomatic line coming from him.

That's great. I think that is the darkest, funniest joke And it was a real story. It's really great. So you asked me if there's hope. Yes, there's hope, but there's no chance. I don't know if there's a chance or there's hope. So to the gentleman in Charleston, South Carolina, let me just tell you how I look at the future. I look at it the same way the prophets in the Bible did. They didn't say X, Y, and Z will happen. They always said, if you do X, then X or Y will happen. I can predict the future with the word if. If we continue to teach children that there's no such thing as a boy or a girl, if we continue to teach children that the freest country in human history is a cesspool, there is no hope for this country. That's— so the if is what matters. And there is an answer: get your kid out of, out of most schools. Take your kids out, homeschool them, or find a charter school, or build a school, or find a religious school that works. By the way, most religious schools are as woke as public schools. That's, uh, which is another depressing fact. But everything is dependent upon what we do.

I want to tell you about a fantastic product Edenpure's air purifiers. With proven Oxy technology, these air purifiers quickly destroy viruses, odors, mold, and more. It gets rid of any odor like litter boxes, trash cans, cigarette smoke, dirty diapers, cooking smells, and more. There are no filters to buy. It takes up no floor space and plugs directly into the wall. And it comes with a 6-foot USB cord. Go to edenpuredeals.com and use the discount code JULIE3 to get 3 Thunderstorm air purifiers for under $200. That's EdenPureDeals.com with the code JULIE3. I agree with you on the if point. I think my follow-up question is, what do we do with the millions of people who have already endured this, the millions of children who have already gone through these schools and have been indoctrinated? You know, I actually think about my high school. It really pains me to talk about Dennis. I went to a, private all-girls school in Los Angeles, and I had a wonderful experience there when I was there. Just really supportive, smart, engaged, wonderful faculty and students. And I really could not speak more highly of my experience. But now I feel like, you know, there was a last great generation of Americans, the World War II generation, and then there were the last great generation of students who went to my high school. And I count myself in that last great generation. It seems like the moment I left, everything just really blew up. Now they've eliminated— you used to be graded on your participation in class and they've gotten rid of that because some students don't feel comfortable participating. There are some classes in which they allow you to retake tests because supposedly that's equity. There are all of these all-school meetings multiple times a week where they talk about social justice issues. They block out many hours in the day for health and wellness and community time. In fact, I mentioned that it was an all-girls school when I went. I believe that they dropped the word all because no longer do all of the students identify as girls. And I just thought to myself, there have been such radical, lasting, drastic changes made at that school. And now they're in place. And how do you get rid of it? I mean, again, it's sort of the point that I was saying earlier. It's going to require a lot of upheaval and a really drastic change to reverse those kinds of things. And that's what I really want to identify to the people around me who I think I'm talking about my peers, of course, at school, who I think understand what I'm saying when I identify the rot. They get that it's ridiculous, for instance, to eliminate a participation grade. But what they don't see is that once these changes are made, it's very difficult, almost impossible to reverse. So my question is, what do we do? I agree with the if thing. If we continue, it's not going to end well. What do we do because so much of it has already taken place?

So you fight. People have to fight. Every battle against bad things looked bad at some point in the battle. I mean, I'm not comparing, of course, in any way our situation with, let's say, occupied France in World War II. When you had the real resistance, not the resistance in, as the left called it in America opposing Trump, the resistance, as if it was fighting Nazis. But it looked bad. I mean, if people didn't fight when it looked bad, no good would ever prevail. I do not measure my participation in fighting for this country and its values on whether or not I think I'll succeed. I don't even ask that question. I fight because that's my moral duty. I owe it to the people who built this wonderful institution called America to fight for it. And by the way, I owe it to the world because I, I don't believe— I know that if America gets weak, cruelty on Earth increases. There is a reason Putin invaded Russia under Biden and not under Trump. He was scared of Trump. He wasn't scared of Biden. There's chaos in America. There wasn't as much chaos. There was obviously at the end with COVID all manufactured by humans. And I don't mean the virus manufactured by humans, though it was, uh, rather just the response, the depriving children of school for 2 years was a human-induced tragedy, or evil, if you will. So I don't ask, will we win? I ask, do I have to fight? That's what people need to do. They have to stand up. Now, it's easier for some than others. I will not be fired for standing up. I'm paid to stand up. I fully acknowledge that. But There are people who fear losing their jobs. That I can't tell people who will lose their job, lose your job. It's not right for me to say. But I can say to people, if you lose your friends, they weren't your friends and you don't want them. That was an issue with you when you first came on my show. I warned you, you'll lose some friends, and you did.

I did. I really did. You know, I actually had a situation recently, um, where it was my friend's birthday, and he was my best friend for many, many years, and he had such a problem with me coming onto your show, Dennis, from the very beginning, and continuing my work with you, that it just became very difficult. And it's, it really makes me sad, but it became very difficult for us to have a friendship because that got into the way. And it was a— he— it was his birthday last week, and he had this birthday dinner. And it was a real moral question for me. Do I go to the birthday dinner? Because on the one hand, we have— we really have had a wonderful friendship. And he's been there in many ways to support me. And we've had a lot of fun together. But on the other hand, it was so deeply hurtful to me that he thought that I was a bigot for coming onto your show. It's so deeply hurtful to me that he just cannot accept our differences in opinion, although he's very left-wing and of course I accept his. And I ended up not going to the party because I felt that it was sort of a demonstration of my self-respect. And it's very unfortunate, Dennis, that it has to come to this, but this circles back to what you're saying about fighting. And I think the tragic thing about the moment that we're in now is that fighting really does require a lot of sacrifice, a lot of personal sacrifice, a lot. I mean, I was sitting there on his birthday and I missed him. I really, I was thinking about all the fun times we had.

Wait, let me understand something. Did he invite you?

Yes, he did. He did invite me.

How do you explain that?

Well, we've been friends for a long time and we don't hang out. We don't see each other. When we do, it's very cordial. And I think he invited me because we were at one time very close and we're about to graduate from college. And I think he wanted to honor the friendship. And it was a nice gesture, but I just couldn't really get over many of the hurtful things that he has said to me and, and done. And so I think, again, part of this fighting is drawing the line with people, because in a way, Dennis I think sometimes when we're too conciliatory, it doesn't mean that we should be rude to people, but sometimes when we're too conciliatory, we're condoning that kind of behavior. And I do not want to condone that kind of behavior because this is what's contributing to the divisiveness in our country where we cannot put aside differences in opinion. So I didn't go. What do you think about that, Dennis, by the way? And listeners, please write to me.

Yeah.

Make the right choice.

Right.

What do you think, Dennis?

Well, by the way, tell them where they write to you.

Yes, julie-hartman.com. Please write to me. I, I'm very interested.

Yes, not heart as in heart valve. H-A-R-T. Folks, in November 2020, there are a lot of people who believe that some dishonest stuff took place in the elections. There's no doubt in my mind that some dishonest stuff has taken place, and I've never seen it as documented as I have in the film 2000 Mules. It's a new documentary film, and it's directed and narrated by Dinesh D'Souza, executive produced by Salem Media Group, with research from truethevote.org. What you will see in this film will, if I may use the vernacular, blow your mind. It blew mine. And all of my Salem hosts who attended the, the shooting. By the way, you see us Salem hosts discussing the movie in the movie. It's a rather remarkable documentary. Watch it and decide for yourself. Attend the limited release premiere of 2000 Mules on May 2nd or May 4th. Check your local listings. And get your tickets today at 2000mules.com. That's the number 2000, mules.com. So this is a really interesting question. You're 100% right in my opinion with regard to the self-respect issue. This guy is going to call me a bigot and I'm going to show up and celebrate his birthday party? I 100% agree. What I would have done, I don't know. If I would have gone, there would have been two reasons. One, so that he understands the, the onus of who is responsible for bad behavior is on him. But there is a bigger reason having nothing to do with him. I would have wished you had gone just to know what others said to you?

Oh, interesting. Well, I think the other people know the dynamic. I think they probably wouldn't have said a lot to me. And by the way, Dennis, I forgot to tell an important detail. I called him on his birthday. I had told him a few days before that I wasn't going to be coming, but I called him because, again, I was really morally wrestling with this, and I do love him, and I I really am grateful for the friendship that we had. And I said to him on the phone, I wished him a happy birthday. I left a message. He didn't pick up, so I left a message. I wished him a happy birthday. And I said, I'm so sorry that our friendship is in such a way that I don't feel comfortable coming to your birthday. But I've been very hurt by the ways that you have talked to me about my career and the things that you've said to me. And I, and I hope that one day it could be different.

Did he respond?

You know, he did. He sent me a nice text. He said that he appreciated my message. And I think that that's sort of, unfortunately, that's just kind of the situation that we're in right now where we're not best friends again. We're cordial.

Well, you'll never be best friends. I mean, first of all, you can't be best friends with people who, who have opposite values. Otherwise, I don't— I literally don't understand what friendship means if you— if people maintain, this is my close friend with whom I differ on every important subject in life, right?

I, I don't— I mean, he fundamentally, Dennis, thinks that conservatives are— I mean, I'm not going to use the word evil, I don't want to put words in his mouth, but he really thinks that they are wrong and bigoted and nasty. And how could he be friends? I mean, it just doesn't work, right?

I really thought that So did you ever ask him, so you say Dennis Prager is a bigot. Do you have an example?

Have you?

Yes.

And what did, what was the example?

Gay marriage.

Right.

They always go back to that.

Right. I know. Yes. You've mentioned that to me and I have a comment on that for everybody listening or watching. Uh, did he give another example?

I think the gay marriage is the primary one. I think that he disagrees with your characterizations on how, I mean, America is not a systemically racist country.

Right, okay, well that's a major opinion. I just think overall— All right, all right, yeah, I would love to have a list because I could give him a list of what his side holds that I think are not only wrong but despicable. By the way, on the same-sex marriage, which we could devote a whole broadcast to, a whole podcast to, so I just want listeners to know That is true. I am a religious individual, my case Jewish, and my religion demands that a marriage be between a man and a woman. I am not going to tell my religion to screw itself. It is deeper and wiser than I, and it's why I'm writing my Bible commentary, to show how much wisdom there is in the Bible. So it wanted to keep marriage confined to man and woman. It was a revolution in history for reasons that I won't get into now, but it has worked to shape civilization. Then there is a separate question: how do I treat same-sex couples who are married? Well, as you probably know, my wife and I are the godparents to one married gay couple's children. This gay couple knows my position on same-sex marriage because of my religious convictions. Convictions. And yet if they die— that's what godparents do— if they die, they want their two sons' moral instruction to come from me and my wife. Now why would they do that if they thought these gay guys don't think I'm a bigot? Uh, Dave Rubin and David Rubin are two of the closest friends I have in life. They're married men. We will probably be, be very involved in their children's upbringing. And, and yet they know my position.

It—

your friend thinks that by having a position with which he differs, that automatically translates into your behavior. That's not true. I behave no differently than he when I am with a married same-sex couple. My niece is a lesbian, married to a woman. I love her, I love her spouse, I love their children. She was just at my son's wedding. So the simplicity, the simpleton-ness of, oh, he thinks marriage should be between a man and a woman, he must be a bigot. It is such a simpleton way of thinking. Does he think Barack Obama was a bigot? Since nearly all of his life he believed— because he said, I'm a Christian, I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman— that makes you— are you a bigot if you are against a marriage among 3 people? Why isn't that bigotry? So it's— these people are not morally complex, let's put it that way.

Well, you know, I think we probably should devote an episode to this because I think it's such a fascinating subject. And I know I've told this to you, it hasn't just come from this friend. I know whenever I tell people that I'm associated with you, they— well, it's the, the reactions are divided in half. Half of them go, oh my gosh, I love Dennis Prager. He's the best. Can I meet him? And you're always so nice. I take a lot of videos for people and I appreciate that you do that. The other half always says, oh, well, you're working for a bigot. And then I say, why? And then they say the gay marriage thing. And my response is the exact response you gave. And I also add, look, I have been very honest with Dennis from the beginning that I disagree with his position. I support gay marriage. And I've said that on air. I'm saying that on this podcast right now. He knows that we both have an understanding about that. And I know how Dennis treats gay people and I'm not going to cancel someone for one belief that I disagree with. Just because I disagree with you on that gay marriage issue, does that mean I'm going to cancel you?

By the way, it works. We're coming to the end, unfortunately, which is actually a good sign because it goes so fast. But I want my listeners who agree with me, or our listeners or watchers who agree with me on same-sex marriage, to understand that this doesn't cancel you out. If we conservatives will cancel out everyone who differs with us on 1 or 2 or 3 positions but agrees with us on 80 or 90 or 95 positions, we will never defeat the left. Never. There is no good cause in history where all the members agreed with each other on everything. We have to agree with each other on the big thing. The big thing is the left is destroying Western civilization and every good value that it brought into this world. That's the big thing. If you are anti-left, you are my ally, whatever your position is on any other given issue. That's— I never lose perspective. On what the battle is about. And that's what the battle is about.

Well, I think that circles back nicely to the— we veered a little bit, Dennis, but that's what we do, and it's fun and it's interesting. But I think your point that you just made was a nice circle back to how I opened this show and asking you about, you know, where do we go from here and what— how we can fight. And that's how we do it. I really agree with you. I think that we have to unify with one another.

You fight with allies.

Yes, and that's what I said to many of my friends. I said, Dennis is— I agree with him on the really, really, really important things, and that's, that's the end of the sentence. That's what matters.

Bless you.

Well, everybody, on that cheerful note—

yes, well, uh, that we will talk about that too, because thank God you said you're basically a happy person. How does one who is not optimistic necessarily stay happy? I'd like to talk to you about that because I've worked that through. I am a happy person. All right, y'all, Dennis and Julie, tell your friends, please forward these podcasts, especially to young people who don't hear this sort of stuff ever. See you next week.

Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits 3 ways. 1/3 chooses the dog, 1/3 chooses the stranger, and 1/3 aren't sure. Why? Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions. And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, book If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality and why Judeo-Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, you are in effect affirming God.

If There Is No God by Dennis Prager, available now at pragerstore.com. That's pragerstore.com.