Dennis & Julie: Struggle with God

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hello everybody, Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman, or if you prefer, Julie Hartman and Dennis Prager. Who would prefer that, actually? It is called Dennis and Julie. By the way, I finally figured out there's a tiny, eensy-beensy teensy part of you that resents that it's Dennis and Julie.

Really?

And I made that up. I completely, 100% made that up.

You know, I mean, there isn't even a TV. There's really not. And I make jokes about it, but I actually prefer the name Dennis and Julie. First of all, you should be first. You're the more established dude, if you will. And also, if you do it alphabetically, D comes before J. Yes.

Oh my God.

And it just sounds better.

Powerful argument.

I have Dennis and Julie sounds way better than Julie and Dennis.

Is that true?

I think so. Maybe it's because I'm used to it.

Yeah, I think so. Anyway, that was just a joke. Hi, everybody. It's great to be with you. I have a super serious thing to start with. So I'm going to preface what I'm about to start with, with a statement that I've actually made on my show, on my radio show, that there is an openness and a self-revealing in Dennis and Julie that even I, who am very, very open and self-revealing generally publicly, uh, it just elicits aspects of me that I just don't come out naturally, as it were, on the radio show. Having said that, that is certainly true for you, but there's not much comparison, obviously, because you're so young and new and new. But this is an example of that, and I have no idea what you'll say. I have no idea. But I— here's the— here's my second preface. I'm sorry. So when I met Julie, or I think it's— yes, when I met Julie, it is fair to say you were a secular individual.

Oh, that is fair to say.

Right. And you would have said that had I— though, interestingly, and I don't want to get caught on this, but interestingly, You probably never thought of yourself as secular because it's not an issue that would have arisen. True. See, so this is worthy of a comment, and then I won't lose track. This is worthy of a comment. People who are religious know they're religious, but people who are secular do not think of themselves as secular. You know why? Because they think that's normal. So when you're normal, you don't think, oh, I'm normal. You— if you're sick, you think you're sick. If you have mental problems, you think you have mental problems, psychological problems. But if you don't, you know, you don't walk around— people don't generally walk around thinking, you know, I'm psychologically healthy. The norm is secular, so you don't think of it. Is that fair?

Absolutely. Also, religious people know about a secular life. Secular people do not know about a religious life. They don't know what they're missing out on. Religious people do. I mean, I don't think religious people are missing out when they choose to go away from a secular life, but they know what a secular life looks like.

Well, there are secular people who have rejected the religion they grew up with, so they would say, oh, I know religious life.

That's fair. That's fair.

Yeah, and I left it. But, but most today, especially, especially your generation, yeah, it would have been, it would have been much more likely that your parents closer to my generation, they rejected the religion, which is true in your case, correct?

Yes, somewhat. They, they, they don't have animosity.

No, no, it's not animosity. The rejection doesn't mean animosity, okay? I want to make that clear, and I didn't even intend that, right? But wasn't one of your grandparents a pastor?

Yes. My paternal grandfather was. And my father was raised Lutheran. My mom was raised Catholic. And they both said that growing up, they just had so much religion that they felt that it was too much. For instance, actually, when they got married— sorry to out my family— but there were some members of both sides of the family that didn't like that a Lutheran was marrying a Catholic and that the Catholic was marrying the Lutheran. Also, my mom talks about growing up—

I'll tell you who didn't like it: the Lutherans and the Catholics. That's who didn't like it.

True.

And those two groups especially, because Martin Luther, right, Luther, right, of all the names, of all people.

Yes, Luther was the one that started the Protestant break from the Catholic Church. Um, also my mom talks growing up about going to church every week, and she made it sound like— and I believe her— that the sermons were really kind of fire and brimstone. You're going to go to hell if you think bad thoughts, if you do XYZ. She says that there was every Easter she had to sit for like 5 hours in here, and then the second nail was nailed to Christ and he yelped out in pain and blood came. She just said it was really gory. And too intense. So they raised us in a secular household, but they don't hate God, they don't hate religion, but they just chose not to raise us that way.

Well, you opened up another subject for me, and I will get back to what I originally wanted to ask you about on the secular issue, but this is really worthy of a few moments. So I realized at an early age what I was going to bring differently to the religious-secular discussion. And I know you know this is true about me, but it's, it's very important for me to say. So I am quite religious, but I don't wear it heavily. And it drove me crazy whether it was Christian Catholic— Catholics are Christians, I always find that odd, but doesn't matter— Protestant, Catholic, or Jewish. Most religious people, they sort of smack you in the face with their religiosity, and it's not good for the religion. I don't think it's good for God. I don't think it's good for them, and it certainly isn't going to bring a lot of people into religion. This, God, this is a perfect example of stuff that I've never said publicly. I mean, it's not a revelatory thing, but there would never have been an occasion. I remember one of my first trips to Israel. I was about 20 years old, and I speak Hebrew fluently, so I was, you know, with Israelis, and I remember I was at the Army headquarters in Tel Aviv. I don't know, some friend brought me there or whatever. And so these were all, all these soldiers were my age. They were also in their early 20s. So we were talking, and I'll never forget, it was, it was a female soldier, and we were talking. And so she, at one point, she said to me, The issue of— I don't know how it came up— religion came up. And she said, are you religious? Now, in Israel, are you religious means are you Orthodox? It doesn't really just mean religious. Are you an Orthodox Jew? That's really what she was asking. So you will love this. So I had two great answers. Whenever I'm put on the spot, I come up with better stuff. I had two great answers. I said, well, I don't know if I'm religious. I only know I'm not secular.

How old were you?

20.

Oh, that's right. That's a pretty amazing response.

Oh, well, period.

But especially for 20.

Right, right. Well, you could relate. That was a compliment. So I thought that was— she didn't know what to do with the answer because she had never heard anything like that. Obviously, the other one was— so she said, so, and if you're religious, Why aren't you wearing a kippah, yarmulke, skullcap? And I had another answer for her. I said, 'Cause I don't think religion needs a uniform.' So those were two life-setting views that I had. And I'm not in any way putting down Jews who wear a yarmulke all the time. My son does and my grandchildren do. And they're terrific. I totally respect those who do that. Ben Shapiro does it. You know how much I respect Ben. But anyway, that was the answer that I gave her. All of which is my way of saying that whether it was to a Jew or a non-Jew, I realized if I'm gonna make the case for the centrality of God and the Bible ought to be that in people's lives, I won't do it in a heavy-handed manner. So when your parents reacted against that, I get that.

I get that too. And what's great about my parents is that they taught us Judeo-Christian values without probably— well, maybe they realized they were Judeo-Christian values, but the great parts of their religious upbringing came through in our upbringing. For instance, I was always taught to respect my elders. I was always taught to honor my parents. Actually, I don't know if my parents explicitly said, you honor us, but clearly the Judeo-Christian values got through because I knew growing up I had to honor them.

Well, okay, so forgive me.

No, that's—

No, no, no.

I heard— We have time.

I heard you inhale, so I know I'm interrupting.

That, by the way, that's Dennis's trick on the radio with callers.

Don't tell them.

Oh, should we blame—

No, no, I'm just joking. You can tell.

No, but you told that to me when I suggested it.

Brilliant. Yes, it is.

Because— and you, you love and respect your— you know.

Oh, I love it. You keep people on the air. That's why I take calls.

But sometimes people can go on a little too long and you've got to cut them off.

For them to inhale.

At the— yes, inhale.

But, but okay, so there, there are so many, uh, so many issues that are, uh, being, uh, fleshed out. Fleshed out. Fleshed out. Yeah. So this—

yes, that was a faux pas.

It was. So here is what I, what I wanted to say. Your parents— and I don't, I don't know your parents well. I could only say that I have so enjoyed meeting them, and they obviously are your parents, so I adore them automatically. But Your parents represent vast numbers of people in the Western world who imbibe Judeo-Christian values but didn't keep them going in the name of Judeo-Christian values.

Well said.

That, that is, by the way, that's what Americans did. Americans imbibed American, American values but didn't teach them as American values. So you end up losing them. If you don't give them a name, you lose them.

Absolutely. I say that we are living on the dregs and fumes of Judeo-Christian values right now, but they're going to run out if we don't understand their origin and why they are important. Because it's like you said this in your, in your Torah commentary, the cut flower ethics.

Yeah.

I use the example of a photocopy machine. So my parents were handed Judeo-Christian values. Let's just say they were written on a paper, although of course they're not, they weren't. It was an— it's— it is an analogy. You photocopy it. The first time you photocopy something, it's going to look pretty much like the original. Let's say that was me.

That's good. I like that.

But then if I don't continue it, right, you photocopy, it gets weaker, dimmer and dimmer and dimmer, and then you can't recognize where it originally came from. That's what we're seeing in the United States.

Photocopy is as good as the cut flower. I salute you.

Can you explain?

I will salute you.

Oh, as I saluted a guy on the road today with an American flag.

So I'll give you my theory on that later. I gave you my theory on my show, but it will repeat it. Uh, so the cut flower, by the way, it's not mine. I, and I said it in my commentary, I don't know whose it was because the guy who I read it when I was your age said he had heard it.

Oh.

So it's not, it's clearly not new, but it is brilliant. So the cut flower ethic is very simple. If you cut flowers from their soil, if you know nothing about flowers, you can look at the flower and go, oh look, it doesn't need the soil. It'll do fine without the soil. That's what people think about ethics. Oh, we cut them off from the religious soil, They're doing fine. Well, they're not doing fine, clearly.

So there were a few things you said, if you don't mind, I want to go back. What a rich topic, by the way, to state the obvious.

Well, it started with you didn't know you were secular, but go on.

Yes, which I want to get back to too and talk about my religious transformation. But the thing that you said about religion doesn't need a uniform, that intrigued me. I agree with you that shoving values at people in a really kind of aggressive way actually works against what you are trying to achieve. That was true of my parents. And that's true of some people who grow up in uber-religious communities that say, you know, you're going to go to hell, you know, constantly reminding them of hell. And so I agree about that. As far as the religious uniform, I also agree that religion doesn't need a uniform. I I will say, now that Judeo-Christian values are so under attack in the United States, I really appreciate when I see someone wearing a cross necklace or someone wearing a kippah because it's unpopular. And even in some cases, the word that's coming to mind is criminalized. It's not criminalized, but the word I'm looking for is it will have adverse consequences for you. Both in your professional and your personal life to reveal your religiosity. So I really appreciate those people who will wear the uniform, if you will, of their religion, because they are saying, I'm proud to be Christian, I'm proud to be Jewish, and I don't care that it's not in vogue. I have enough commitment to God to wear it proudly. But the— but again, the values thing is totally—

so let me react then.

Sure.

So I, I repeated those two responses that I gave to this woman soldier because I thought that they illustrated what I wanted to do with my life: advance biblical values, God-centeredness, without a heavy hand. And I still— I think I've lived that my whole life. That's, by the way, why I didn't become a rabbi. I could have gotten rabbinic ordination because I learned as much as rabbis do. I learned— I probably learned more than most rabbis do.

That's how you— I don't mean to cut you off, but it's really important. That is one of the main ways that you influenced me. You had me at the introduction of your Bible commentary, and I've said it before, but it's really important to emphasize. You wrote in the introduction, I'm not trying to make you a Christian, I'm not trying to make you a Jew, I'm trying to show you that these values are worth knowing about. You will live a better, happier, more principled life. And that approach was everything. I think I would've put down the book if I had read in my secular state, I want to convert you to XYZ religion. Doing it, it doesn't mean you sacrifice the push that you give for these values, but there's a difference between advocating for them proudly and then doing it with a heavy hand. You don't do that.

That's the reason I told you those two anecdotes. There's anecdotal answers to the, to the young woman. But, uh, I, uh, I have sympathy for your statement about the uniform issue. I didn't think of it so much as a cross on the yarmulke, though that's a perfectly legitimate response, and I want to talk about that for one moment. In a moment, I was thinking more I was, I was rethinking, if you will, in terms of, let's say, a Catholic priest wearing his collar. I actually like to see— now I like to see priests wearing their collar. When I, I remember as a kid— I don't mean your age, I mean as a kid in Brooklyn, New York, where I grew up— how often I saw nuns I mean, it was common.

Really? In Brooklyn?

Yes, in Brooklyn.

Because Brooklyn is—

I know you think of it as, yeah, as secular, as Jewish, as—

If you're going to see anyone walking down the street, it's going to be Orthodox Jews in Brooklyn. That's what you think.

That's right. But I lived in a very mixed neighborhood. But in any event, I remember it vividly how often— and you almost never see someone in a nun's habit today. And I think society was richer for it to have. So I just want to make that clear. By the way, I felt this— you would love this because you also love to travel. You have not been to Thailand, correct?

I have.

So do you remember seeing young monks? Oh, you didn't see that? Okay. When I've been there, it was in orange, orange flowing robes like. I saw some, and I thought that it is a good thing. They're reminders that there's something higher out there. So anyway, I wanted to say, despite what I said, I appreciate— I have a question now which I would love your friend Elsie to comment on. So when I see a lot of people, more, far more women than men, wearing a cross either in the form of a crucifix as a Catholic or just the cross, more likely a Protestant. And by the way, my own reaction is virtually always positive because I know that if Christianity goes, the West goes. And I'm saying this as a religious Jew, just saying this my whole life. But I have an interesting or important question. Maybe it's just interesting and not important, I don't know. Do most people wearing a cross— it's like, like a necklace— is it a good luck talisman, or is it a statement of, I affirm God, Christ, the Bible, its principles. What does it mean when the average person wearing a cross wears one?

Elsie, for those who don't know who Elsie is, Elsie is my— in the summer. But I feel like Elsie is a friend and stylist.

That's what Elsie is.

Everything. Elsie is just a gift. And I met her in college and in the only conservative class. She wears a cross necklace.

Well, well, she's a committed Christian. Yes, I know that it comes with depth. So the question is not why does Elsie wear one? The question is, for example, so on the, on the internet, I will see the Daily Mail, which I go to even though they've attacked me. I don't really care. Yeah, I just, I still find them very interesting. So they have a whole bunch of sections: UK, United Kingdom, United States, female politics, entertainment, politics, entertainment, showbiz. So on the showbiz, which I look at because I want to be slightly informed about popular culture, somewhat informed, so it always cracks me up when there is a, let's say, some young actress and she's in a bikini and the Daily Mail loves showing that. I have no objection. I'm a male. But when they're wearing a cross. So I'm thinking, what, what? And I'm not— this is not an attack, by the way, at all.

You mean the bikini wearers are also wearing a cross?

Yes. So what What does the cross mean to them?

Okay, I will. I actually do want to hear Elsie's response because, you know, many Christians who wear crosses. So I want to know if in your judgment it's a good luck. You used a good word, not talisman. Talisman. That was a better word. Or an affirmation of the values. I will say, though, because I know a lot of secular people who wear crosses, but they're not— they're not subdued religious— like, you'll never see Christ depicted on the cross.

Well, that you see among Catholics. That is not a Protestant thing to do. That's why.

You know that?

Yes.

Wow, that's really interesting.

Okay, well, so here's this Jew telling the daughter of a Lutheran and a Catholic who wears what cross.

Well, you'll probably— you have a lot to tell me about Christianity that I don't know. Uh, by the way, I want Dennis to write a New Testament commentary in addition to the Torah commentary. I think it would be Amazing. Um, I know a lot of secular people who wear crosses and they do it because it's, it's like a weird act of defiance actually. And it's part of like a trendy goth outfit, for instance. And Sean can look this up and maybe put up a picture. Kourtney Kardashian, who— do you know who that is?

Yes. That's why I look at the showbiz page.

Yes.

Okay.

She recently, she got married about a year ago to this—

Khloé is the sister.

Well done. And name one more. Name one more. Oh, come on. The most famous. There's, there's, there's 3 more.

There are 5.

Yeah, there are 5.

Okay.

Kim.

I'm proud. I know 2. Kim, Kourtney, Khloé, Kendall.

Anyway, I don't watch. Wink wink. Kourtney Kardashian recently got married to this uber tattooed weirdo, I think. Travis Barker. They had a wedding in Italy and she wore the shortest wedding gown I've ever seen in my life. Like, like you could see her derriere. Big, big, you know, boobs showing. And she wore this huge cross and her veil was stitched a depiction of Mother Mary. That is totally what I'm talking about. I see so many secular— look up Megan Fox. I'm sure Megan Fox has it. They wear these big gaudy crosses. And I think it's this weird, like, I look slutty or I look goth and I'm wearing a cross, I'm defiant.

Defiant of whom?

I think it's— I think it's there that they're mixing a religious symbol with something, a look that is so a-religious. I think they like that.

Well, all right. I don't get it. So, you know, let's not even— I gave an extreme example with the bikini and the cross. Which, by the way, is not— I don't think the bikini is anti-cross. Don't get me wrong. It's a very normal thing for women to wear at the beach. But so maybe it wasn't even the best example. It just is what came to mind. Just the average person wearing a cross, what does it mean? That's all I'm asking. There's no challenge. There's no agenda.

Again, what about a Jewish star? I have friends who wear a star.

Okay, so I know, I'll tell you, the Jewish star, which I don't happen to wear, I don't have to wear anything, but the Jewish star is not a religious symbol. It is a— remember, this confuses non-Jews tremendously. Jews are both a people, even a nation, and a religion.

Yep.

The Jewish star is the symbol of the nation, or even if you will, ethnicity, though Jews are not an ethnicity because they're Jews of every ethnic group. It doesn't matter. I just want to make things clear. So the Jewish star— an atheist Jew could wear a Jewish star. I know it sounds odd because there's no such thing as an atheist Christian, because if you're an atheist, you can't be a Christian.

Yep.

But if you're an atheist, you can be a Jew, just like you could be an American if you're an atheist, because it's a people, it's a nation. So the, the Jew wearing the Jewish star is, I identify with the Jewish people, or even I identify with Israel, but it is not, I am religious.

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What is not? I'm sorry, Sean had said something.

Oh, that's fine, that's fine. The, um, the Star of David is— is— I'm saying it is—

oh, it's not a good luck— okay, so since I raised the issue and you're re-raising it, there is a sort of good luck talisman, uh, more like— this is very technical, but you, you raised it and I'm commenting on it. So there's, there is a, there are so many Jewish symbols, so to speak, whereas there's one, really one Christian symbol, the cross. Either Christ is on it or he's not, but it's still the cross. So there is another one, it's Chai. It's the two, it's two letters in Hebrew. Hebrew letters are numerical equivalents. So for example, Aleph, the first letter, is 1. Bet, alpha, beta, comes the same thing. Alphabet comes from Hebrew and Greek. I don't know which came first. So bet is 2, gimel is 3, and so on. Then you get to 10. The 10th letter is 10, but the 11th letter is 20. The 12th letter is 30, until you get to 400 and you've exhausted the alphabet. So when you put the 8th letter and the 10th letter together, you get 18, which is— which also means the Hebrew word for life, right? So that's more of a good luck talisman.

Elsie, would you say that most who wear a cross are affirming Christian values and the— at least some aspect of it? It's not— okay. I would, from my—

she doesn't think it's— you don't think it's good luck?

Because I don't think—

asking her because she's a committed Christian.

My understanding is that a lot of Christianity doesn't— I'm not saying Judaism has a tolerance for this, but I think Christianity especially does not have a tolerance for, like, good luck charms. That's at least from my— it's viewed as sacrilegious, which I get. I kind of— well, I A good luck charm is kind of pagan. And I'm not—

well, it— I have a slight more tolerance for— I don't happen to believe in any of that stuff, but I have— I think I have a slight more tolerance. Or, or let's put it this way: I don't know the answer. I think Elsie may be right. I think she may be speaking for herself and the Christians she knows. My suspicion is that If I'm in an Uber and the guy has a cross hanging from the rearview mirror, I think it's more of I'll be protected.

But protection is different from good luck.

Well, how is it different?

I think protection is even if something bad happens to me, I am protected by my belief in God that I can overcome that bad luck or that bad fortune because I have the armor of Christ. Good luck charm is kind of like, if I have this next to me, good things will come to me. I'll win the lottery ticket today, I'll know my husband today, etc.

Interesting. Well, I didn't quite follow number 1. Okay, okay. So why don't you react to the way I, I And I may be wrong. That's why I'm raising it as an agenda-free question, because I don't care what the answer is.

Okay.

I'm just curious. When, when you see that, I think of it as I will be protected from a hit-and-run driver, from a drunk driver. It's in my car and I'll be protected from calamity. You don't see that?

I don't see that. And look, obviously we're speculating. Some people could very well have the cross in their car for that reason. My understanding is that it's, it's a reminder of your faith. It's a reminder to, in all of your dealings in life, follow what your God would want you to do. But I think it's also a mark of protection, but not in that you can change faith— fate, excuse me, for a better outcome. It's that no matter what happens to you, I've— you have Christ right there to help you get through it.

So I'll tell you why I think the way I do. This is based on a lifetime, as you know well, uh, which is a long time, of reading religion and 40 years of talking with not just two Christians I— a lot of Christians, I mean a lot, believe that faith and prayer are protectors, and they will cite even Old Testament statements about God being my shield in Psalms, for example, or whatever, and I don't have that belief at all. I do not believe that God will protect me from calamity.

If I might, I don't— and again, just to make it clear, I'm speculating. We would have to ask average Christians. I don't think that the, the protection aspect is understood to mean that bad things will not happen to you.

Oh, I'll tell you why I think it— forgive me, I know I'm interrupting, but that's all right. So important, otherwise I'll forget. And the I have to react at that point. The number of people— I'll give you my proof text, and I may be wrong, but these are— these is not hunches. This is based on a lot of interaction with people, including Jews, by the way. A lot of religious Jews have a very similar thing. I'll tell you an anecdote in a moment, uh, and, and that is they— why do, why do people say my, my child died of cancer or something, some terrible thing like that, and I've lost all faith in God. It can only be because they assumed before then that God will protect them from a child having cancer. I don't have any such belief, and I am deeply God-centered.

I don't think it's that. I think.

Well, why do you lose faith if you don't believe God will protect you from calamity? Why do you lose faith if you have a calamity?

Look, I hear your point that there must be some subconscious belief that you will be— certain things will not happen to you, and that may be contributing to why people lose their faith. If this makes any sense, I think it's just that people underestimate the devastation that they will feel when that happens. And I think it's— it sends someone to such a low place. Not that they expected things to go their way, but they so didn't expect feeling so awful, which they could not have imagined, is what you're saying.

That's a very profound statement, actually, on your part. I respect that. So let me tell you my anecdote to show you that this is not, in my view, purely Christian. I spoke at an Orthodox synagogue in London many years ago. At the end of the talk, a man got up and he said, so Mr. Prager, I would just like your take on this. How do you explain a pious religious Jew getting cancer at the age of 45? And I remember thinking, I can't believe the guy's asking the question. So I actually, because I'm so open with people, and that's the way I've learned a lot, I said, um, ladies and gentlemen, please raise your hand if you think that if you pray daily, keep kosher, observe the Sabbath and, and, and follow the Torah as meticulously as you can, that that should— that should protect you from cancer. Half the congregation's hands went up. And I believe if I said in, in, in an equivalently religious Christian or Catholic church, raise your hand if you believe that if you are fully committed to Christ, you study the Bible, you live a truly Christ-centered life, that will protect you from calamity? I think half the hands would go up too. Do you disagree with that? Do you think most hands would not go up?

I think many hands would go up, but Okay.

Yes, right. Oh, okay, let's repeat what she said.

She said, I think many hands would go up, but it's not biblical. Absolutely.

Yeah, okay.

People are tested in a tragedy all the time in the Bible, right?

So wait, wait, so, so aside from that, I know that that's why I was blown away as a religious Jew that a religious Jew could say that. So it— because it isn't biblical. That's my whole point.

Right.

But they think it's biblical. Uh, uh, God is my shepherd, I shall not want. Uh, he is my rock and my redeemer. I mean, they could, they could cite all the time, God answers those who cry out to him. I mean, these are from the Bible, uh, but it's not, it's not the same. I don't believe it means he'll protect you from calamity.

It doesn't, it, it doesn't. But you know, so wait, wait, so that goes back to my cross.

That's why I made the point about the cross. That's not biblical. Elsey's answer— that's why I said Elsey is answering it as a knowledgeable, intelligent— or they're intelligent too— intellectual Christian. And I'm answering it as a knowledgeable intellectual Jew. But most religion is popular, not intellectual.

Okay. One of the things I love about this show, and it's kind of crazy, is that you often read my mind, or you will talk about things that I have been reflecting on myself. It shows that we We contemplate similar things. I don't know what— why over the past few weeks I've been having this recurring thought that is, Julie, something tragic is going to happen to you in your life. It's not like a premonition that I've been having. It's just, it's just an intellectual acknowledgment that everyone has tragedy befall them. I've had tragedy befall me in my life. I haven't had a, a pain-free life, as you and the viewers know. I've had a wonderful life, but that doesn't mean it's been pain-free. But I know I'm 23 years old and God willing, I'll live a long time and I will have something really sad and shocking happen to me. I hope not, but I don't think it escapes anyone. And I have been saying to myself, are you going to lose your faith if that— when, if and when that happens to you? And I've been going through these scenarios. What could happen to me and I wouldn't lose my faith? And I hate even putting it out into the universe, which I guess is kind of a voodoo or sacrilegious thing to say, but shows everyone has a bit of superstition. I don't even like saying it. But if my parent, one of my parents, was hit by a car tomorrow, dear Lord, please don't let that happen. Would I lose faith? I might. I might. I might get really angry at God. I go, I have committed my life to you. I'm a good person. I believed in you and my parent gets hit by a bus. Screw you.

Okay, so I'm being intellectually honest. All right, so I'm going to really shake you up.

Okay.

And I hope I shake you up because I don't want you to lose your faith. Whatever happens. Okay, so here I will give you another anecdote from my rich anecdotal life. Woman called my radio show decades ago, said, Dennis, just want you to know I now agree with you about capital punishment for murder, because I've always been for capital punishment and I still am. I think it's the height of injustice to allow Every single murderer to live. Some should be allowed, but every single one, no. Anyway, so I said to her the obvious, well, why have you changed your mind? Said, oh, I was always against capital punishment, and then my brother was brutally murdered while standing in a phone booth. So this is obviously decades ago. So you and anyone watching or listening to this might be actually disappointed in me Because I didn't stop my reaction with, oh, my heart goes out to you. Of course I said that, and my heart did go out to her. To have a loved one murdered is beyond description. After I said that, I didn't keep quiet. I said, I just need to say to you— and I'm paraphrasing, I don't remember the exact words, but essentially I said So I'm curious, when everybody else's brother was murdered, you were okay with keeping the murderers alive? Now you're not? She didn't argue, and I wasn't there to hurt her feelings, obviously, but that is what people do. So your question is this woman prior to the event Well, if God forbid my parents, whom I so love— I'm speaking Julie, right— uh, get killed by a hit-and-run driver, a drunk driver, I, I think I might lose my faith. So in other words, when everybody else's beloved parent dies—

totally right—

that's God exists.

No, you're—

but if my parent dies, I know I'm totally right. Believe me, I know it. I— but I want you to, to imbibe the rightness into your consciousness now. That's why I say I don't— one of the ways I protect my faith is I have no expectations of God's intervention here.

Hmm. Look, I agree with you, and I endeavor to be the best person possible. And I— that's why I'm thinking about this now. I'm— I want to sort it out now before, God forbid, it happens, so that if and when it does happen, I have a principled reaction to it.

You have to answer the question now. How did God allow all these other terrific parents and children to get killed?

You're right. I'm just saying, as a human being, I am, I am admitting a very human thought I have, which is if it happened to me—

You want to protect your faith.

That's why I'm bringing it up. That's why, you know, I'm, I'm trying to bring up these thoughts that I've been having in an effort to help myself and also help a lot of other people who I think are going, who might I think the same way. It's, maybe I'm not giving myself enough credit, though. I think I would really struggle with my faith, and I wouldn't be embarrassed about that at all. I think if it's a human, I mean, do you, well, let me pause for a minute. If something really awful, God forbid, happened to your wife, would your faith be shaken? No, really? Not even one bit?

If so, if something happened horrible to me, I don't think it would be.

Well, you're very strong. I'm developing the strength.

No, it's not. I don't think it's because—

strong in your faith?

No, I'm strong in, in my rationality. That's the irony. That is why when I— people think— I think people think They know I'm not lying to them, but I don't think they take me seriously when I say that reason is my vehicle to God and why I called my commentary The Rational Bible. God gave us reason. He didn't give animals reason, so animals don't believe in God. Only we can, and we can because of reason. Unless God reveals himself like like to Paul on the road to Damascus or Moses at the burning bush, and he hasn't revealed himself in that way to me, nor do I even imagine it. So I use reason. It is not that I have strong faith. It is that reason tells me I am not immune because I am a good guy to tragedy. All the good guys who lived before me who had awful things happen to them are living proof of that. How— I don't understand that. I understand it emotionally but not intellectually. If a bad thing happens to your loved one, oh, there's no God. But everybody else's loved one, 100 million slaughtered by the communists in the 20th century, oh, of course there's a God. But my parent is hit by a hit-and-run driver, there is no God. I don't have respect for that view. That means that your God was emotional to begin with. There was no intellectual basis. That's why I believe that most crosses are protection and not— not when people wearing crosses. That was our original question.

I—

that is why I don't believe it comes with this very strong understanding of Bible, as, as Elsie put it. I don't think most religious people have biblical views of their religion. They have emotional views, and they have a scattered smattering of verses from the Bible. Look, these Orthodox Jews had a non-Jewish view. There is no Jewish view that if you pray 3 times a day, as Orthodox Jews do, you won't get cancer. The idea is preposterous. Preposterous. And I'm not saying it to hurt their feelings. I'm saying it so that they'll have a religion that is worthy of intellectual respect.

Mm-hmm.

6 million Jews, most— many of whom prayed 3 times a day, were gassed.

Right. Mic drop. I mean, well said. You're right. What I was going to say a few moments ago is that I think I'm not giving myself enough credit because if something happened to my parents tomorrow, my— what I was saying was my faith would be shaken, and I wouldn't be embarrassed about that because I'm a human being. And how could your faith not be at least a little shaken when something like that happens? But, and I've really thought this through, I think I would also understand that as awful as it is, part of the price of free will is that a drunk driver may get in his car and hit your parents. Part of the price God gave us.

Well, that's my— that's right, right.

That's what, that's what you said. God, the blessing of free will is we see it every day. We can, we, we have control over ourselves, what we do with our lives, etc. But all— we're not, we're not robots. But a downside of free will is that there is a potential of tragedy. So I think I would understand that and keep my faith, but it would be really, it would be hard. And what I'm trying to do now, and you've— thank you, you've helped me in this episode— is try to even more not let myself lose my faith when something like that happens. Because you're right, when it happens to other people, that blows my mind. Of course, someone like me or many others don't see it as selfish or see it— it's just totally— you're guided by emotion, but it is selfish.

That's why I gave the example of the woman with capital punishment. All these other people are murdered. Oh, keep the murderer alive. My brother was murdered. He should drop dead.

Look, you just— as a— and it's a, um, thing that all of us as human beings need to work on— you just, you just assume it won't happen to you.

Well, I never assumed that.

Well, you don't because you're Dennis Prager, but a lot of people do.

I don't because I'm rational, and I don't because a Buddhist taught me not to. I give them credit.

Right, but you're rational and a Buddhist taught you not to. I'm saying a lot of people aren't rational and a Buddhist—

Right, but—

They've never met a Buddhist.

You're right. Okay, so they should read my happiness book and the chapter on expectations. It's the— it's— there are two chapters that change people's lives. I hope they all do, but I know that two do. Don't have expectations, because if you do, you won't have gratitude and you'll be disappointed. And the other is that it's a moral obligation to be happy. Those are the two parts of my book that really affect people the most. I know from feedback.

Look, I'll, I'll say this, and I hope it, it makes sense. I think when sometimes it's difficult to understand why God has to go as far as he goes. For instance, if someone got This is not going to be the best. Bear with me. I think it will end up being a good point if I can get there. If there's already so much evil and tragedy in the world, but then there are some things that happen that are just so, so bad that it seems like, okay, God, I get why you needed to kind of sprinkle in some evil or allow for the existence of evil, but why that much evil?

Oh, I agree with you.

You know, that's where people's faith gets shaken.

Okay, no, that's an argument. Okay, so my view of that is that's an argument with God. It is not a refutation of God.

Fair enough. But I'm saying—

but it is a legitimate argument. By the way, I just— for the record, and I've written— I wrote this in my book of essays, Think a Second Time, about 25 years ago, and I wrote it earlier than that. My— I do pay a price for my views.

Yep.

And I'll tell you the price. It's hard for me to love God.

Like, okay, if you—

if I have no expectations of him, it's hard to love him.

I'll give an example. Murder is, is awful enough to— awful is an understatement. Think about people who like get tortured and they have a slow death.

That's right.

You know, I mean, I want to say to God, okay, I get allowing the existence of murder, as much as I hate it, but do you really have to allow the existence of people being put in torture chambers and branded and suffocated and having their limbs cut off?

I mean, I 100% agree with you. Uh, like, why isn't there a shutoff mechanism? Yes, with evil.

By the way, maybe there is. Well, maybe there is that we don't know.

I don't— it's hard to—

it is.

Of course it's hard to imagine, but it seems unlimited, the amount I mean, the, the sadism in, in human beings is quite remarkable.

That's where I sort of understand, like, okay, we're really getting into it here. If my— if a parent, God forbid, were hit by a drunk driver tomorrow, I think I could handle it with God. If my parent were kidnapped and tortured over a month and we couldn't find that, and it was just this awful, prolonged, gory death, I think I think I would have a problem with God. Well, does that difference make sense?

Yes, of course it does. I agreed with you originally on that difference, but you know that that's happened to other fine humans.

Yeah, you're right, you're right.

So what— you're very rational. What, what do you do with that?

Well, I, I—

you believe in God with all these people that were tortured today?

I struggle with it. I mean, the other day—

struggle is fine. That's what Israel means, struggle with God, right? Struggle does not give up faith.

By the way, I'm speaking in a hypothetical situation. I may not give up faith if my parent—

No, I know that, but it's fine. Neither of us is arguing whether you would or wouldn't. I'm only saying that one is— I think everyone should refine their theology prior to catastrophe.

I agree. I mean, I, I— there was a story.

I still think that most people wearing a cross are doing it to be protected.

Okay. A note on that. I agree with you that some people think that they will be protected. I'm not— I disagree with you on the minute point that I don't think the cross itself is like a good luck charm. Does that make sense? I don't think this—

I don't think what it means. And I'm not saying it disparagingly, and I said it of both faiths. This is not— but I don't think when people have a cross, I'm glad that they're wearing it, to be honest.

I think there is a side of people's thinking that they expect that bad things won't happen to them. But when they have a physical cross in their car, I am not convinced that they think the presence of that physical cross will preclude them from harm. I think they put that cross in their car to remind themselves of their faith and that if tragedy befalls them, they can get through it. Do you see the difference? Yeah, clearly.

Well, look, given the fact that we all acknowledge that those who have a rabbit's foot hanging from their rearview mirror, it is, it is a good luck charm.

Mm-hmm.

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Of course not.

I just want to make that clear over and over. And I much rather they have that than nothing.

So sorry to depress everyone, but just to prove to you that I am— strive to be consistent. There was a story I read about 2 weeks ago that really shook me up. Like, no other story has in a long time. And it happened in Boston, in the Ellen McCormick projects in South Boston, where Whitey Bulger, of all people, that infamous number one on the FBI's most wanted list, grew up. There were people in this apartment building who reported an awful stench. They called the police. Of course, the police took several days to come. They searched around the apartments in the building and they found one apartment where there was a dead body in the apartment. There were sex toys everywhere. There were used condoms everywhere. There were needles everywhere. And ready for this? There were 4 men dressed up as women. And in a back room of the apartment, there were 4 5-year-old boys.

This just happened.

This just happened.

Yes. Is a horrific, horrific story.

So I wanna prove to you that I strive to be consistent. When I read that story, I, I actually, I, I actually think that is the story that launched me on this thought process because I thought how, again, I, I can understand murder. I can understand getting hit by a drunk driver. I may struggle with it, but I can understand those things. I can't understand a God allowing evil to go that far? You know? So that would— that shook— seeing it for other people shook my faith. And then I thought if it happened to me, it would probably doubly shake my faith because it happened to me.

I just read a book by a Chabad rabbi, an Orthodox rabbi, Dennis Prager, who happens to be actually a local. Very thoughtful book about human suffering. I'm going to have him on the radio. And I don't agree with him, but it doesn't matter. To me, virtually any theology of human suffering is commendable. If it works for you, So his is God wills everything that happens. That's basically his view. And I don't have that view. On the other hand, it's not a stupid view. Maybe that's it. It's not a superficial view. Stupid is not the word. It's obviously not stupid. And I'll give you the way my father, who was a very God-centered man, not just religious, he was He spoke to God every night. My father was the Prager who loved God. And his view was, at the Shabbat meal when all this talk would take place— you're well aware how true that is— hours and hours every Friday night. So he would often speak about big subjects and little subjects and anything that he thought about. So his view on the Holocaust was it is inconceivable to him that God merely watched. It had to be part of a divine plan. And I do believe God watched, but I, I don't believe my father's view was silly. I mean, because he— you could just as easily say Dennis's view is silly. God, who was described in the Bible as of infinite mercy and justice, watched the Holocaust? I understand that view.

But it's arguably worse to think that he willed it. I'd rather— and by the way, there's what I would rather and then what—

No, I don't know what you'd rather. Go ahead. You'd rather what?

Now I'm going to get myself into trouble. No, no, no.

It's a very tough question, what we would rather.

I would rather a God who watched than a God who actively sought that to happen.

Really? I must say, I used to think that way. So here's a challenge. You are a Jew marched into the gas chamber. Would you prefer to believe God is watching, or God in his infinite wisdom that we don't understand had a plan that this happened?

I would rather the latter, but I think the qualifying thing is that he allowed it to happen in his infinite wisdom, knowing that eventually in whatever thing we can't understand would end up being good.

Right. Well, okay, end up being good, I have a big problem with. But end up, end up that God will do justice for both.

Yes.

Yeah, that I do. My sanity rests on the hereafter.

Well, expecting that God will deliver justice is different than God willing that to happen in his interest.

I agree with you. I agree with you. All I asked you was, we think that we know what we would prefer to believe— God watched or God willed. Both sides have a very powerful emotional preference. You asked emotionally, not intellectually. I don't know what I prefer. If I'm marched into the gas chamber and, and I think 'You know what, what crappy luck I had to live during the Nazi era,' versus 'Dennis, God has this plan for you. There's a reason you are entering the gas chamber.' But even in the first one, there's a reason.

It's not that God is putting his feet up and watching going, 'Oh well.' It's that God gave us— he is going, 'Oh well.' Well, it's that, it's that God gave us free will, and the downside, as I said earlier, of free will, and it's a massive colossal downside is allowing the existence of evil. But that's, that's not without purpose. You're saying the second one, there's a purpose, there's a, you know, there's a divine plan for you, there's a reason. I think the first one, there's a reason, it's just a different reason.

Well, it's not a reason vis-à-vis the individual, it's a reason vis-à-vis all of humanity, but also vis-à-vis the individual. I don't see that. Why did he pick out.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

To walk into a gas chamber, but Bill Cohen got saved.

I see what you're saying. I mean, that's all of us. It's part of living.

No, you don't even— look, I always find fascinating if they're, you know, on the rare occasions of an airplane crash, and even rarer that anybody survived, and sometimes you have one or two people survived, and they almost always say, well, God had a plan for me. And I, I don't know if I would say that, because what, God didn't have a plan for the 116 who did die?

Well, no, maybe he did, but in just in a different way that we cannot understand.

Yeah, yeah, but the person who was saved is implying that God wanted me to live, right? Yeah, but he didn't want them to live.

Maybe not in a way that we don't— we don't understand.

Did you ever read The Bridge of San Luis Rey? Are you familiar with that?

No, but you know I'm a reader, so I'll read it.

Oh no, you'll read it in one night. It is about this question. I think it's Thornton Wilder, but I'm not absolutely certain. It's one of the few novels I actually did read, and it's a classic. It's about that. Why did all these people die on this bridge that fell?

Oh yes, it's— well, okay. Oh gosh, I have so much to say about this, but first, before I forget, I want to make what I think is a really important point and something that I, as I'm laying the foundations, building the structure of my religiosity, what I'm trying to incorporate. We tend to blame God for things that we should first blame man for. For instance, and I'm not saying it's wrong to want to blame God, but when I had that reaction to the, um, the 4 kids the 4 kids. Of course I'm angry at those people, but what occupied my thought was God.

I agree. I'm with you totally.

What should occupy my thoughts are—

No, no, you're right.

Those people, and they do, of course they do.

One doesn't preclude the other.

One doesn't preclude the other.

Why, I believe, why did you create a creature that could be that horrible? Why didn't you create— I mean, they may be stupid questions, but I admit I ask them. Why, why did you make it possible for that creature? We— you, you, Julie, and I understand evil. You, you know, murder, bank robbery. But torturing children, uh, for a lark, for a sexual thrill?

What, what is it that you have put into people in this drug, dead body?

I mean, right, yeah.

So layers and layers and layers and layers of evil.

You You can be annoyed with both the human and the Creator. Look, Isaiah 45:7. It's one of the only verses I know by memory.

I was impressed. I'm like, wow.

Yes, well, I admit it's one of the few. I created good and evil. And people are annoyed. The rabbis who, you know, 2,000 years ago who made up the Jewish prayer book They actually changed Isaiah's words because it was too difficult for them to put in the liturgy of Jewish prayer, because most Jewish prayer is biblical citations. And so they said, who makes peace and created everything. They didn't say created evil, created everything. They changed Isaiah's words because it was too painful to think God created good and evil. But he did.

So, so do Christians believe that, um, that God created the devil?

I don't know. There— I don't know the answer. Well, I mean, everything that exists, God created, right? You can't have existence.

I mean, the snake in the—

he, he said in Genesis, yeah, he created all the living things. All right, so Christian belief that the snake is the devil. Uh, it's not Jewish, right?

Right. But I'm saying— I'm asking, do Christians— because Jews believe that God created good and evil. Christian, because there's no devil in Judaism, right?

Right.

Christians believe that there's a devil. So my sincere, earnest— it's not said in any other way.

My sincere, earnest question on my next dialogue, which I do often, do Christian dialogue, I'll ask that question.

But we have a lot of Christian listeners, so I have no doubt that people—

yeah, that's a good point. Tell them where to write, by the way.

julie@julie-hartman.com. Our listeners, I'm going to brag for a moment, for, uh, on, for us really more than anything else. We attract really smart listeners. Our list, I mean, oh my God, the things that people write to me, the wisdom that they provide is, is, uh, unbelievable.

Well, you should know a motto.

I, I know it, but say it.

Oh no, say it.

Okay. Well, I wanna make sure I get it right. Don't underestimate their intelligence, but don't overestimate their knowledge.

That's right. That has been my attitude. Me for 40 years of broadcasting. There are a lot of smart people out there. That's correct. And that is why I, I say this with absolute sincerity. I, knowing that is why I also believe college makes many people stupider. I think that a lot of people think more clearly before entering college than when they leave college.

Wasn't the case with me, but I am to total— I agree with you. I agree. I got really lucky stumbling across your work, among other things.

So the, uh, I'll tell you, I'll give— because it's so— it sounds so odd, I'll just give— we should talk about that another Dennis and Julie thing. What does college make you stupider? Uh, the, uh, but I'll tell you what, I'll tell you one, one of my, one of my, uh, proof texts, as it were. You're taught you can't think for yourself. All you need to do is ask, where are the studies?

Yes.

So all of a sudden, for the first time in human history, Studies show that there are more than two sexes and people believe it. Where were all the studies before?

That's why— and I hate it because even studies that I think are well done, I hesitate to cite studies on my show or when I guest host for you because no one with good reason believes them anymore.

At least with good reason.

I—

when someone— well, it's actually kind of a blessing and a curse. It's a curse in that there are some really good studies that aren't believed because we live in the study world. But it's actually a win for people like you, or for you and for me and the Prager line of thinking, because you have this great, great motto, which is that if it doesn't accord with common sense, it's probably not true. And now if you strip away the studies argument, You have to just argue on common sense.

Yeah, but—

and I like that.

And that's what's shattered at college. But I don't want to continue on that because this has been so rich.

Do we not? Do we have more time?

I don't know. Sean, what's our time factor? Sean is— Sean is—

we do have more time.

We do. What is— what— how much is the time thus far, Sean? Okay, so we have a few more minutes. Yes.

You know, I'm debating whether to ask these questions because it's going to lead into a big discussion, but we can— we can pick it up.

Refer it or try it now?

Right, right. Okay. I encountered this thinker in college through my class taught by like the one and only conservative professor. And actually, Alan Astrin cites this thinker a lot too. William Gottfried Leibniz, who in 1710 wrote this book, Theodicy, which was dealing with the question— sounds similar to the Bridge book, there was this earthquake, I think actually a few—

Portugal.

Yep, the, the— in Lisbon, I think. Yeah, it was a few centuries earlier where just people were in church and this earthquake happened and then they all died. And so Leibniz asked the question, why— basically the subject today— why does God allow this to happen? And he has this answer where he says God creates God elected to create— okay, if you go on the assumption that God is a good God, you have to— what then follows is that God created the best world possible.

Yeah, that's right.

In other words, there are some things that we— that our human minds cannot understand, but like, they're kind of all like puzzle pieces that fit together. And maybe the existence of such brutal evil is what I cited with that that Boston story, allows for the existence of such a great amount of good and meaning that we see. I don't know. I'm not claiming to know. The whole point is that we don't know. But what Leibniz basically argued is that— think about a chocolate chip cookie. He didn't say this. He didn't say chocolate chip cookie, but I'm saying it. If you take chocolate out of the chocolate chip cookie, it's no longer a chocolate chip cookie. You, you— all of the ingredients are necessary to make that what it is. And that's what he's saying about the world, right?

That's his theory.

In any way, I think that's made the most perfect world he could.

Or no, not he could— the— that could be— that, that's Leibniz's view.

It's—

you're right, it's difficult to, uh, to believe. But if you don't believe it, then you have to believe God God knowingly made an imperfect world? That seems odd too.

He did. He, he did know.

No, no, no. He made a world where bad could happen.

But that's an imperfect world.

No, no, it's not. Because if God made a world where no bad could happen, he would have made us robots. Why is that perfect? How could you have a—

I'm not saying that is perfect, but I'm saying this world isn't imperfect, right?

Because there's free will, right? Okay, so fine. But it's not that you— you— Leibniz is saying with all the bad stuff in it, it is still the most perfect world that could be made, right? That's all. So I don't know. I am— I am agnostic on the Leibniz belief. I don't know. I don't dismiss it, and I don't know if it's true, but it's very hard, as I said, to, to say it's not true, because then you're implying that God deliberately made a flawed place.

How do— this may sound like the most obvious question— how do we know that God has infinite wisdom and that all of this kind of— well, of course we don't know. No, but what gives us reason to believe that there's infinite wisdom in You mean omniscience?

No, knows all?

Or no, no, in that evil has a— there's a plan or there's a reason.

Oh, I see. How do we know? Okay, well, it's hard. It's hard to— well, first of all, why would I listen? Why would I obey a God who was not all-wise, right? Theoretically, I could be wiser than he me, and then I'll make up my own Ten Commandments. I mean, my theology rests upon God knows what is right.

How do we know though that it's not— it goes beyond just the outcome of free will and that there is a greater redeeming meaning to evil? Does that make sense? Like, I—

yeah, makes sense. We don't know. I mean, that, that is what that rabbi that I cited earlier said. God God has a, has a reason for all the bad that happens. Okay, so I, I don't— I think, back to our analogy, you're hit by a drunk driver. I don't believe God directed the drunk driver into you.

He knew it would happen.

That's right.

But he didn't do anything, right?

By the way, I'm not sure he even knew it would happen, and I don't believe in any compromise on God's omniscience or anything. But my wrestling text, if you will, is in Genesis. When before God destroys the world, he looks up, he looks down upon what men did. And it's an amazing statement. God got sad into his heart. Why would God get sad if he knew what would happen?

I—

yes, but I'm going to get sad when my parents die. I know that's going to happen.

You're right. That's the answer. Okay, fair. So anyway, look, I believe God is omniscient, knows everything. Does he know the future? The odds are he does, but I could live with the theology that says that given that God has given us free will, we— he does not know how we will exercise that free will. He knows what my dog will do My dog doesn't have free will. However, it— I don't— it doesn't matter in either direction. What is the difference if God does or doesn't know what I will do? It's so— as long as God knows what I do and what I did, that matters to me.

So you say, and I, and I know it's true because I've, I've read your stuff a little bit, thank God, that you reason your way to God. So the free will, the existence of free will, and having tragedy and evil be a downside but, you know, necessary consequence or component of free will, that rationally makes sense to me. What doesn't rationally make sense to me, and I'm not saying I don't believe it, I'm just trying to go with the Prager reason your way to everything. Is that there's an ultimate redeeming aspect to evil.

I didn't say there was.

Do you think there's not?

No, I said my sanity relies upon there being a hereafter, an afterlife where good and evil are worked out. I, I don't believe that all evil has a redeeming, uh, meaning. If I did, then I would accept it. Why would I be angry?

Well, you can—

why does, why does it say in the Psalms, those of you who love God must hate evil? Why would you hate what God has designed there to be? So for the, for some great redemption, I, I, I— and by the way, there's, there's, there are two aspects. There's human evil And then there's natural suffering. I mean, is there a redeeming aspect to 5-year-olds dying of cancer?

Well, what many religious people would argue is that not in this life, but in some cosmic, divine way that we don't understand.

The hereafter is my sanity keeper.

But I'm saying, I don't know, maybe we're getting to get too in the weeds here, but what is the rational argument for that? I get the rational argument.

Rational argument for what?

That there, in a divine cosmic way, there is a redeeming aspect to your suffering.

I don't believe there's a redeeming aspect to my suffering. All I believe is that God works out the issue in a hereafter so that the good who suffered here will, will be rewarded, and those, the evil who have created suffering, will be punished. So, but I, I, the, I, the idea that, well, you were tortured to death and now you understand why— by the way, that might happen— now you understand why you were tortured. Look, I don't— first of all, I I can live with not knowing these answers, right? They don't, they don't keep me up at night. Well, that's also what evil keeps me up at night because I'm so angry at the people who perpetrate it. But, uh, you know, is, is there really a redemption in the, the poor 17-year-old girl who had her breasts cut off because she said she's a boy, and then at 25 she goes, why don't I have breasts? Why did you take my breasts away? And I'm purposely using that word because there's no nice word.

You got to bleep it.

No, you don't. It's not one of the 7 words as far as I know. So you might have to bleep it if you believe it. Bleep it. People know what I said. I have no other term for the psychologists, psychiatrists, and surgeons who do this to girls. Okay. No other word. They're despicable human beings who think they're angelic, which is the most despicable. But most people who do evil think they're terrific. But anyway, so is there a redemption? There's no redeeming value. Oh, I wake up at 25 and I don't have my vagina and I don't have my— I don't have my uterus and I don't have my breasts. Oh wow, that— there's a real redemptive thing. Now she can make it redemptive.

Redemptive, right?

By saying, don't do this, girls. You're girls. You can't be a boy like Chloe Cole is doing now. A fair number are. That's right. I don't know that name, but yes.

If I could answer my own question, what is the rational argument for this redemptive possibility? I think that God does show us that at least in my own life, and a lot, I hear a lot of people say this too, that some of the worst things that happened to them ended up being the best things, ended up revealing something or teaching them something or putting them on a path.

Right.

That was, but, but, but, but just as I say, okay, I get the existence of evil, but how really? Why that much?

Right.

The like, I can understand how even something really awful happening to me can be redemptive. I don't understand how Jews marching into the gas chamber. In the Holocaust is redemptive. But I think that's where faith comes in.

Oh, I agree with you, but it's not redemptive. I mean, whatever that means.

It could be redemptive in—

What did I learn from getting killed? There's no time to learn anything.

Redemptive.

Yeah.

So one could argue in a cosmic— Again, there aren't even— There's not even language to describe it.

So that's why I have sort of retired from only one thing in life, because I haven't retired from anything. I've retired from looking for the answer to unjust suffering.

Interesting.

Because I don't think it's available to us. Here is a great thing to end on. So Rabbi Sacks is a very famous is a beloved— he just died a couple of years ago, and he was the— he was a member of the House of Lords and the Chief Rabbi of Britain. He was a very special man. There's, by the way, there's a YouTube video of the two of us in dialogue.

Wow.

You'll get a big kick out of it. Out of nowhere, he was diagnosed with cancer a few years ago, and then knew he was dying, and he, he addressed this issue, and he said something interesting. God doesn't want us to know the answer to why there is this suffering, because if we did, we wouldn't fight it.

I have nothing to add. That— you're right, that was a really good note to end on.

I know, I have the chills. God created doubt, as you once said on this broadcast, which I also got from another rabbi.

Time to start listening more to the rabbis, I guess.

Some.

Some, yes. Not the— well, I don't mean this in a mean way, but I have to say it— not the one who you debated who said that people are basically good. That was, that was a little painful, but it was interesting. Thank you all so much for listening. You can reach me and Dennis— I forward the emails to Dennis too— at julie@julie-hartman.com. I love and benefit so much much from hearing from you. And you can also check out Dennis and Julie clips on my Instagram, which is @julierhartman. And Dennis and Julie premieres on this channel, the Julie Hartman YouTube channel, every Monday. Thank you again.

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