Dennis & Julie: The Easy Way Out

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com. Hi everybody, Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman, known as Dennis and Julie. You know that this is number 46, Julie?

Wow, we're almost at a year. We should have a big party with Nerds.

Oh, the candy Nerds? Yes, because we have Nerds.

Yeah, yeah, we have that in full supply.

Exactly. And Good and Plenty, which you never heard of. Let me ask you, do you like licorice?

No. Oh, do you like, uh, Sour Straws? Do you even know what those are?

That's insulting that you would ask, do I know what Sour Straws are? Nevertheless, I have no idea.

They're really good. I'll bring them in next time. They're my favorite.

I did, I did not care for Nerds, to be perfectly honest.

Well, someone did because they're gone.

By the way, I do want to say to everybody who enjoys us, which is everybody watching, presumably, otherwise they wouldn't if they didn't enjoy, they wouldn't watch or listen. It's really worth binging. In other words, going to the back one. Really, none of them are dated. It's true.

They're eternal.

They might be on something happening at the moment, but it's a larger issue always.

Not really, though. We talked in our early episodes because it was right when Putin invaded Ukraine. We talked about that, but ever since then we really haven't done a news item.

Well, I think even that would probably be interesting. Yeah, but we don't do news items. That's true. Talking about not doing news items, you said to me, and I was very moved because I really, uh, I'm a big admirer of your parents.

Thank you.

And you told me that your mom was moved deeply by something I said. Yes, I know how important it is, and people take me seriously. Here's a great— oh, we always go off on tangents, but we always come back. So here's an interesting tangent for you. What moved your mother? You're going to tell us, I, I, then I'll comment. But that's a perfect example of where I have a big advantage over you. On these issues. And I mean, you'll overcome it, there's no doubt in my mind. But I have a big advantage being so much older, because if you said this, what you're going to incite your mother hearing from me—

people wouldn't believe me. Well, how do you know?

That's exactly right. But I'm a parent, and, and my kids are grown up, and it comes with credibility. So I just want to say that See, it's interesting. This is its own topic, and we might have covered it tangentially before. I was speaking when I was your age. I have as odd a life as you now have, and I've been speaking ever since, obviously. There's no comparison to how seriously people take me today versus then, and they took me seriously or they wouldn't book me for lectures. It's a challenge to be taken seriously when you're very young. It's not a challenge later.

Well, that's why, you know, we were talking last time about how I'm a character, and I remarked people, members of our audience may be a little stunned to hear that I'm a character because I don't really let it show on this, on this program or on my program Timeless. And the reason is it's because I want people to take me seriously. And so far, even though I've had people, you know, write in mean things or disagree with me, I'm very I'm knocking wood here. I've never had someone say that, indicate that they don't take me seriously.

Oh, it's impossible not to take you seriously, but obviously otherwise I wouldn't have you sit in for me for my show as an example. But I'm just giving— this is a perfect example of where it's easier to be taken seriously when you're older than your age. So go ahead. Your mother said this really impacted her.

Yes.

Something I said.

She was listening to a recent episode of Dennis and Julie, and you remarked that parents should not have or take too much credit when their children turn out well, and parents also shouldn't take too much blame when their children don't turn out well. And that really— my mom said that that really impacted her.

It impacts every parent that I know because either their kids turned out well or they turned out poorly.

I know, I said to her, I'm like, so who doesn't it apply to?

Oh yeah, no, I'm sure.

I was like, okay, Mom, I'm so glad that resonated with you.

I can't believe I didn't tell this story about— did I not tell the story on Dennis and Julie of when my dad came to a speech of mine?

Oh, I think you did. And you said, and he said he got lucky with you.

Oh yeah, it wasn't mid-ten. It was much later actually. I was probably in my forties, but yes, I overheard him and I was very moved that he, because he, he would take compliments, you know, nicely, but he would, he wouldn't deflect them as a general rule, but this was really powerful. He had no idea that I overheard this conversation after a speech of mine. People milled, because I always introduced my parents and it gave them a charge and I loved giving them that charge. Ladies and gentlemen, my parents are here, Max and Hilda Prager. Mom and Dad, would you stand? And, you know, my mother would beam. I mean, she radiated joy at all of this happening. Anyway, somebody had— so people crowded around my parents after the talk, and my father had no idea I was within earshot. Somebody said, wow, you must have done a great job. Dennis is such a wonderful man. And my father said, tell you the truth, I was lucky. And I thought, wow, that's, that's a, that's a very endearing and impressive thing for him to say. Julie, the— when I say Julie, you know it's going to be really serious.

I know, I was thinking that.

I was like, oh my God, I know, we're both— we both monitor everything. But I, I just want to say that one of the realizations of the second half of my life has been the role of luck in life. And people don't like to hear that. I don't like to say it, let alone— I understand why people don't want to to hear it. Religious people don't like to hear it because they want to believe God is involved in everything that happens and it's not luck. And I believe God is omnipresent, but I don't, I don't believe he directs everything that happens. I don't think he sent the drunk driver to paralyze you if you got paralyzed. People who do— my father did. That's why he didn't fear. He was in the Navy for 3 years in the Pacific. He was on the type of ship that the Japanese most wanted to sink. He was bringing troops over, 1,000 troops or whatever number at any— on any given voyage. You, you sink my dad's ship, you sink 1,000 American servicemen. And, and he slept like a baby because he believed that God determined when you died. And I, I sort of envied him. I, I didn't think that. I thought if you get hit by a kamikaze, it's bad luck. Or a torpedo. So the— have you meditated? Because you're a thinker. Have you meditated on the role of luck?

Oh, you, uh, you were just saying that, um, you were encouraging the listeners to binge watch Dennis and Julie. I actually binge watched Dennis and Julie last night, and, uh, I was re-watching our, our last episode where I was talking about my sister And you said that my situation with my sister has imparted to me the, uh, how true the sentiment is of there by the grace of God go I, which by the way is a, is a saying that my dad has, has said for my entire life. I remember being 4 or 5 or 6 years old and, and hearing my dad say that. So yes, it's very, I mean, every single day of my life I think about, well, explain to people who don't know. Yes. My sister has very severe autism and The situation with her, her care has been very painful for all of us. And every single day of my life I've thought, how the heck was I the Hartman child that was born neurologically intact and she was so unlucky to get this wretched life? So the answer is yes. But I wish I could go a step further than that, but I don't think anyone really can.

Like, you know, do you know, I wonder if people who grow up with a disabled sibling are not deeper and better people for it.

Oh, I'm, I'm sure. And that, that's another thing that really haunts me, because it's not just that I was born without a disability. I feel like I have my— I've benefited in a very odd way from her troubles. I feel like I am a much more mature, strong person because Gina has suffered, not just because she's disabled, because she has suffered. And that's something that I can't figure out. Why does God let that happen? Or why is that the case?

Well, okay, so do you see what I'm saying?

That goes beyond—

of course. Look, I have come to some peace with that issue, and that is that there is no answer. I'm a big believer in God. And I have big questions for God. Why Gina is that way and you're your way? You know, there was a kid in my high school class who died in the senior year.

Of what?

I don't, I don't remember. Some, some illness. He wasn't— I don't think it was a crash or something, but even if it was a crash I mean, look, there's no answer to that. You'll find this very interesting. A major Jewish thinker passed away in the last 2 years, and— oh God, me and names. This is a perfect example because there's even a video of the 2 of us in dialogue. Lord— oh God. Sacks, that's it. He was Rabbi Sacks, and he was a major writer, major thinker. He was the chief rabbi of England. He was a member of the House of Lords, very distinguished, incredibly— I mean, you would be blown away at how well-read he was. And all of a sudden he got terminal, I think, cancer. In his early 70s, and he said on a podcast— somebody asked him about God and suffering and so on— and he said he has come to an interesting conclusion. I'm using the word interesting, I don't know if he said it. He said God must keep the answer secret Because if we understood it, we would not work to improve the world.

It's such a great point. And you said it on our show a few, um, times ago. See, I am a human recording machine.

I love that, by the way. I love that you are, because then I know— for you, but for me it's only a blessing, because then I know we have to move to a different subject, right?

No, but, but you said it. You said something on the show, and I think about it almost every day. You said God created doubt.

Yes, that's a separate issue. Well, it's related, but it's— it's—

yeah, but all— if God created doubt, then he created doubt not just about his existence but about a lot of different things, or relatedly, uncertainty, right? And I agree with Rabbi Sacks that uncertainty is an interesting— sorry, you can—

you know, well, what I was going to say might be moving to yet another topic, relatedly so. It's just we're getting off that highway for a moment, or maybe for a while. I knew how lucky I was very early, and I knew about the role of luck. And what I did with it, you'll find interesting because it— I think it would— applies to you. I said, look, I don't know why I'm lucky. I only know that given how lucky I am, I have to use it for for a better world.

Mm-hmm. I find it to be fascinating the way that, cuz you know, uh, my favorite thing to do, you, you say that your talk show is your human laboratory, and I know you take that into your life as well. It's not just confined to your talk show. I do too. I feel like every interaction I have with someone, I'm, I'm trying to, oh, I know you do. I, I'm trying to analyze, I want everybody to know she's not exaggerating. No, I, I, I do do this and I sort of hate admitting it because it makes it, almost seem like the interaction is transactional.

No, I'm— you want to understand life.

I want to understand all of the things I love about you.

That's correct.

Well, thank you. And obviously you do the same, and that's why, that's why we're so similar, among the many reasons. But when I talk to people, as I do quite often, who don't believe in God, I find that they— whenever we talk about this issue of luck and the disparate circumstances and gifts and abilities that so many people in the world have, they approach the topic with a kind of disgust and anger and hostility. Like, ugh, the fact that this exists, this is proof that there isn't God. How could you think that there is a God when— almost like it's callous for me to think that there's a God because there are such differing circumstances. But And again, maybe it is because I am one of the luckiest people on earth. Like, I know that I was born into a really good situation in life, just as you were. But when I think about that subject, I don't feel a hostility and an anger. I kind of feel a sense of—

Toward God, you mean? Hostility or anger about the fact that luck is so—

Both.

Imbalanced.

In other words, When I talk about this, it doesn't make me angry. It makes me want to figure it out, and crucially, I feel humbled by the subject. And I don't know, I feel like it's sort of a character defect when people resort to anger when talking about something like this, or they immediately dismiss the existence of God. I always found that response to be a bit odd.

Well, you— there are two separate reactions. Dismissing God's existence— look, Charles Krauthammer, the great, truly one of the greatest thinkers, commentators of the last half century. Do you know about Charles Krauthammer?

I do, yes. I don't know much, right? Okay, he wrote a series, a book of essays, right?

Yes, it's worth reading. So when I asked him— he was a completely secular man And he was a psychiatrist. He went to Harvard Medical School. He was paralyzed in a diving accident at Harvard, graduated with his class. Did I tell you this ever? You realize that the man had— he gets, he gets quadriplegic in a diving accident. He was a real stud, by the way, if you see the, the pictures. And he, he did not stop studying. Didn't— not just didn't leave Harvard for good, or medical school, it's irrelevant that it's Harvard in this case. He, he stayed up with his class. He would have books projected onto the ceiling while lying on, on his back in the hospital.

Wow.

And, and never— and didn't lose a semester. I mean, the guy was— it was amazing. And anyway, I asked him in one of my number of dialogues with him, because I never asked him about politics because everybody knew his views. It's not interesting to me anyway. I know what he's going to say. I read him, I heard him. And so I asked him, I'm just curious, what do you think of atheism? And I swear to you, I had no idea what he would say. I wouldn't have been surprised if he said, well, to be honest, Dennis, I am an atheist. Said, and he said it was, it's the stupidest idea out there. And the guy, the guy's secular, he comes from no religious background, or at least was not in any way religious. And, and so there are two separate issues: being angry and dismissing God. This dismissal of God is just simple, it's a simpleton response. But you could be angry at God You're— the Jewish tradition, and it's unique in all religion, it is to— does have an element of shaking your fist at God. Do you know the story of the rabbis who put God on trial in Auschwitz?

No.

Oh, this will blow your mind. And Elie Wiesel actually said, I saw it. So we had a very reliable witness. So Orthodox rabbis in Auschwitz, the torture death camp, the best, most infamous, best-known one of the Nazis. One time they put God on trial. They gave him a lawyer and they gave him a prosecutor. They put him on trial for breaking the covenant with the Jews in the Holocaust. And after I don't know how many days of deliberation, They found him guilty. And the punchline— I get the chills when I tell the story— the punchline went as follows: God is guilty, and now it's time for the afternoon prayer. It's time to daven mincha. That was the way they put it. That's Jewish. God's guilty, and now I'm praying. Because it's very human. It's a very human religion, Judaism, interestingly.

I totally understand why people are angry at God. I mean, there are honestly, there are many days of my life that I feel angry at God when I see the situation with my sister. I'm sure there have been circumstances in your life and everyone's lives where they feel angry. I think what you're highlighting and the point that, that I was trying to say, though it wasn't particularly eloquent or clear, is that it's a— I view it as a luxury to not believe in God.

I love it.

That's, that's what, that's really what I was trying to say. When, when, when people who I talk to, they think that they, it's the superior position to not believe in God because so many people suffer. Like, how could I believe that there's this good God because there are, you know, so many people out there who have these wretched lives? They think that's their, like, that's the morally superior position. But what they don't understand is, as I said, again, it is a luxury to not believe in God because it means that your life is so good and so secure and stable that you don't need to have something greater than yourself to believe in to get you through the day or get you through the year. So it's, it's a paradoxical thing.

It's the easy way out.

It is, yes.

And that's, by the way, for some people, I just want to be intellectually honest, for some people, belief in God is the easy way out. Yeah, if God is their butler.

Totally, totally. Well, yes, I mean, I don't want to complicate things, but going back to what the line that my mom loved that you said, the crucial part of it for me isn't so much the second part as the first part. Yes, it's true that you shouldn't take a lot of blame when your child doesn't end up well, but you also have to obey that first part, that you shouldn't take a lot of credit or all of the credit if your child ends up good. That first part, I think, is the greater component. And bringing it back to God, of course, now I'm forgetting how I— what my original point was. We are— what were we just saying?

Well, the easy way out is to be an atheist.

Yes, yes. With belief in God, you shouldn't— there are two sides too. You shouldn't if you believe in God, you shouldn't— that doesn't mean that you should not question him. You shouldn't take the easy way out if you believe in God. Those— the two of us believe in God, but we have to continuously question and challenge.

You and I were raised— and here I do give our parents credit, even though they, they may have gone too far in either of our cases, or both, doesn't matter— I was taught never take the easy way out.

Yes, there's a trap in it.

Yes, there's a— that's a good way of putting it. I never heard it that way. Was that the way your parents would say it, or you're saying it?

I, I just—

there's a trap in it.

There's a trap.

That's exactly right. It doesn't work. There is no such thing as the easy way out. It doesn't exist.

I know.

I— what is the easy way out of raising a child What is the easy way out of writing a book? What is the easy way out of going to work every day? Well, there is no easy way out.

Sometimes I do, I think I take it too easy.

The easy way out is never getting married, not having children, and living on your own and doing only what you want to do. That's the easy way out. But it's not the happy way out. It's not the deep way out. It's not the rich way out. It's not the fulfilled way out. I could go on forever, but it is the easy way out.

God, that's crazy about the God being put on trial. I think there's a documentary out there that's like God on Trial.

Yeah.

And when I saw it, I just thought it was a great title because—

wait, are you referring to a play? Is it Joseph Telushkin wrote one on that?

Oh really?

Oh, you've gotta— I gotta send you the link. I'll tell everybody the link.

I think there's a documentary on Hulu or Netflix that's called God on Trial.

Well, I don't know if it's about the Holocaust though.

I think it is. I think, I think it's about the— yeah, the Nuremberg Trials.

Then it might, might be related to that very famous story.

And I just thought, wow, what a great title, because it's, it's true.

And see, that's that I could be real about God. People who, who think this is odd— oh, put God on trial, be angry at God, whatever, shake your fist at God— Wait a minute, you're not angry at— you've never been angry at someone you love, right?

Right.

So it's not real. It's like saying you can't have any dark emotion vis-à-vis your children, your spouse, your friends. It's absurd.

And I, I find that I have such a richer life when I encounter these questions. Like, because you remember, for most of my life I was secular. I, I mean, Yeah, you know what, it blows my mind.

Yeah, you don't know. I'm going to be very personal, which is what you bring out of me, that I was your primary conduit to taking God and, and the Bible and religion seriously. It is not possible for you to know how much joy that brings me. I could cry, that's how much it means to me.

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as you have now discovered, having a fountain pen makes it way easier.

But I, I just want to give it that gift to other people because they have to read it for it to be— they have to read it. And it's, it's such a—

but will your friends read it?

Not all of them, but I, I know which ones will, and I'm careful to the, the, the friend that we're sending it to, um, or that I just, I don't know why I said we, that I'm sending it to tomorrow will definitely appreciate it. I'm so excited for them because I so know the position they're in because I was in that position where they have, you know, this curiosity and they, you know, they have, it's like fertile ground to grow a great tree. And that, but by just sending them the Rational Bible, I'm planting the seeds. It's so, I'm so excited to send it to my friend and hear what she thinks.

Oh, I, I believe that. Have you started Deuteronomy?

No, I'm sorry. I've been— sorry, I've been rereading Exodus because I have this thing. I have to know it back and front.

I'm just curious because I can't wait for your reaction to Deuteronomy, because there's got to be a voice in you thinking, what else does he have to say?

I know. And then there's no—

by the way, there's a voice in me that says that. Did I tell you my reaction when I got Deuteronomy in the mail?

You said you wrote— I wrote that.

When did I write?

Yeah, do you— so this is, this is interesting because, not to compliment myself, but I have not found yet that I run out of ideas.

When you won't— I know, I know your mind. We have similar minds.

But you are like—

I'm an idea factory. That's what I've always thought. I'm an idea— you know how I relate it. And, and for, for people watching or listening, this is not a brag because this is a gift.

I feel like they must think we're so, we're so hot-headed.

I, I, I I could live with it. I, I know, I, I know what I have to battle in my life, and I know what gifts were given. I don't take credit for this, so I want to make that clear. But I remember Schubert, one of my favorite classical composers, and Schubert was known for haunting melodies. The guy was a melody machine. And he was asked, how do you come up with this? And he says, they just come into my head. And I thought, that's, that's, that's me and ideas. You don't have a thousand columns out there.

I know, and you keep— you just keep going and going. Thank God.

Thank— oh, thank you. Uh, so it's, uh, I, I do— look, every— I do believe this. This is not one of these 'we're all special.' I can't stand that language, 'we're all special,' but I do believe everyone has a gift. I have never met a person who didn't. The issue is, do you use it? If I get credit, it's for using the gifts. But, but the gift is a gift. You know, I was thinking about it. I, I have a personal trainer for, for 5 years, so I, I realized in talking to her just in the last session that she has a gift in the way she relates to clients, in picking up what you did wrong. If you taught me physical, uh, medicine or whatever— kinesiology, I think is the term— I would, I would— I have no gifts in that arena. She knows every aspect of why I did any given exercise wrong. Your feet were not in the right place. You leaned over to the right. I mean, you couldn't figure that out. I couldn't figure that out. That's a gift. Now she's cultivated it. I've cultivated gifts. You have. But it's a gift. The interesting thing I have debated and I don't have an answer to is— are— I, I should— I'm going to raise this on my Human Laboratory, my talk show. Do you have a gift but you were not interested in using it?

See, it's a very good question.

Isn't it a good question?

Well, I, I have a response to it, and for me it's swimming. Even though I did use it. I, I, from a very young age, it was clear that I was, I, I'm, I feel like I'm just complimenting myself. I feel really bad about it, but it's, but it is true in this scenario.

I just want everybody to know you spend most of your time knocking yourself.

Oh yes.

Okay. Just for the record. Yes.

Just, just for the record, you have no idea. Constantly knocking myself. But it was very clear from a young age that I was an exceptionally gifted swimmer. And I, I mean, I stuck with it because I, I was, I had this idea that I needed to maximize my potential, and if I was given this gift, I should use it. But if at any moment I could have quit, I would have.

All right, so yeah, that would be a good example.

Yes.

Like, you had a gift and you had no real intention of using it.

Yes, there was, there was a time when I was, yeah, where I was just like, I know I have this gift and maybe I should be, you know, maximizing my potential, but I don't care. I don't I don't want—

for the record, I don't have that gift. I don't find swimming pleasurable, to be honest.

It's really not. I find it in the ocean, but everybody—

by the way— oh really?

Yeah. Oh, I think it's— well, just being in the ocean I think is fun. Have you ever been snorkeling?

Yeah. Oh, you have no idea how often.

I don't know why the image of you snorkeling—

oh, I, I have snorkeled around the world. I've snorkeled in the South Pacific. I have snorkeled in the Maldives.

Do you like it?

The only thing I like, and it's obviously the only reason you do it, is when you are at a coral reef that is gorgeous.

It's amazing.

It is beyond belief.

And that makes you believe in God.

I gotta say, seeing, seeing the, the fish when they come over to you and, and how colorful they are, and the reefs themselves, they're, they're stunning, astonishing. So, uh, just for your right— do you like snorkeling?

Love it.

Okay, so just— so you must talk to Alan Alan would snorkel in a bathtub if he could. He—

Alan?

Yes, Alan. Everywhere we have gone, and he's gone on virtually every one of my cruises with listeners, he has snorkeled.

It's such a funny word, snorkel.

Well, yes, I know it is a funny word. Anyway, he loves it more than I do. He, he will go any day to snorkel.

I will do— I'll go with him.

Yeah, you would. Exactly. So All of these, by the way, I want to say one thing. The greatest snorkeling in the world, I believe, is in the Maldives, in case you ever get a chance to go there. Okay, it's right off India, the southwest coast of India. So we were in Australia once, or more than once, but we were in Australia and we went snorkeling, uh, at some body of water that had, that had obviously theoretically a lot of colorful fish. I didn't want to go as soon as I heard the following: there are a lot of jellyfish there. Oh yeah, jellyfish are a curse. You do not want to have, uh, they don't bite, they, they have their, their tentacles which sting you terribly. And they're, they're not easily seen because they're transparent. And I'm thinking, why would I want to go to a jellyfish-infested place, uh, and, and snorkel? But if I didn't go, I would have been the guy sitting on the boat or sitting on the shore like some nerd So not only did I go, but I went in a wetsuit. Now, yes, you're allowed to.

We got to get a picture of this.

Well, I think there might be. I've, I've tried to delete all of them. Me, 6'4", 265 pounds, in, in a wetsuit. It is a sight.

And, and with the snore and the snorkel, right?

Anyway, I didn't take the easy way out, Sean.

That's right, Sean.

In a certain sense I did, because it would have been harder to have been embarrassed not to go with everybody else. Anyway, I deeply— Did Sue go? Yes, Sue went. I deeply regret having gone.

Oh no.

Because I was not, thank God, stung by— I spent the entire time looking for jellyfish. And it— I don't know, even know why we went. The water was dark. It was the opposite of a great snorkeling experience. But I, uh, I also got seasick on this boat going, this little boat. I think the whole experience was disgusting. Okay, any— anyway, uh, you, you mentioned the, the joy of snorkeling, that that was unlike swimming, which is— it's not swimming snorkeling. You basically lie face down.

I get horrible seasickness too, by the way.

Oh, it's the—

that is the one of the worst feelings in the world. Oh, I'm sure kidney stones are worse.

Correct.

I'm sure childbirth is worse, right?

But it's up there. Uh, you're entirely right. Yet I love cruising because these ships, they're so big. I mean, it's— some people get seasick, but it's little fishing boats I can't handle. This goes like that.

So with— I love this question. Is there a gift that you have that you— yeah, that you don't want to use? Do you know anyone that you, you've observed in your life for whom that may be true?

Or no? Yeah, because I didn't use it. I'm— how would I know that they even had that gift?

True. Well, this relates to a discussion that we had, I think, 2 episodes ago. So episode 44. See, I'm improving on my human recording machine. And it's that so many people nowadays don't want— it seems that they don't want to find their potential and they don't want to find their gifts. They would rather take an off-the-rack solution to life than do the hard work that's required.

Another good term he came up with, off the rack.

Yeah, just, just take the easy solution to life than doing the hard work to figure out what your gift is and crucially to get better at that gift.

They— what is it Aristotle who said that, you know, the self-examined life is not worth living, or something, something to that effect? Your generation has been deprived of asking itself the big questions. In, you know, Instagram, TikTok, and, and parties and demonstrating against global warming. I mean, when you think about it, there's such little introspection in your generation. I don't, I don't blame your generation. I mean, I blame my generation more than yours, right?

Well, we've had— we, we haven't had examples of people with full robust personalities. That's why you— I mean, among many reasons, that's why you're so important to me in my life. I mean, I'm, I'm lucky I have great parents and I've had some other good role models, but you are really a shining example of someone who appreciates all of life and tries to have a, as I said, full, robust, vibrant personality. A lot of people are shadows of who they could be.

Most people.

And the thing I said to you off the air I wanted to bring that up, but I don't know if—

I don't— look, we don't hide anything.

We really don't.

It's really, really mind-blowing. It's sort of like a diary, this show, this podcast. So you were debating whether to come back here to LA, where you're from, uh, and, and be where you're from with your family and with with me and my family and, and really a whole world that I have here. You've become a part of, for example, Shabbat dinners. And even though you're not Jewish, I might add, it doesn't matter. We, we have a contingent of non-Jews every Shabbat dinner who love it. So your, your tear was New York. Because so many young people are in New York, and you thought, probably correctly, you would have more chance of interaction with your, your age group in New York. And then, but I said to you right before our podcast, I said to you, I thought, I think, because I think about you and I think about your situation, and while that is true, it wouldn't have mattered because you wouldn't have found almost any kindred spirits in New York with your peer group. We did talk about that. In any event, they're pursuing, you know, high finance, not living life. It's so— you have the blessing and the curse of being deep. It just, it just is the way it is. You have some wonderful girlfriends, which is really critical.

I do.

Yeah, I really, I've come to adore them. But, but finding a guy your age isn't going to be easy.

No, it's so funny because when you were saying, oh, we were discussing something, um, off the air and we thought we had just agreed, I, I thought you were referring to something else that we said, although that was something that we talked about. I thought you were referring to when I asked you, are there any unhealthy habits that you have. Oh, or because Dennis— and again, Juliet from Virginia's ears are bleeding, but sorry. And by the way, I haven't gotten an email from her. I think she just totally threw up. She couldn't stand the compliments. But you, I can say, you are a remarkably healthy person. You—

I really want to tell you something.

Yes.

Okay. Well, I'm interrupting.

No, it's fine. It's fine.

Yeah.

Okay.

I want, I want everybody to know that even that— not— or maybe drop the word even. You have to work on that. I, I wanted, I wanted to be happy. In starting in high school, I, I ached to be happy. I was not a happy kid prior to high school.

Really?

Yeah, I had, I had real issues. I, you know, this was not— my life was— has not been a— what is it? A bowl of cherries? No, a cakewalk, bowl of cherries, whichever.

I mean, I am well aware of that fact, but I didn't know that, that you had problems when you were really young.

Well, yeah, I had issues with my parents. I, I had issues being the younger brother of a perfect specimen of human being, my older brother. In fact, I was with my, my older brother in New York. Sue and I went to visit him. His wife was unfortunately not well that night, so he only— he came to the dinner. I don't see him often, unfortunately. Live on different coasts, and harder for him to travel because of His wife is not well. But anyway, so I said to him, Kenny, I'm writing— I'm going to be writing my autobiography after I finish the Torah commentary. And so I got to ask you something. I'd like to ask you some questions. I want other voices in my autobiography. And nobody living knows me as long as my brother, obviously. So I say, did you think I was a loser? When I was a young kid. He had every reason to think I was a loser. Uh, I, I had— I was— I did not accomplish anything at school. I did not accomplish anything, period. Uh, I was always on the heavy side. My mother took me to the husky section when I was a kid to buy clothing. My brother was a total stud. So he said to me He said, I never thought you were a loser, but I did worry that you were, uh, in my shadow. So that, that one of the teachers in our elementary school looked at me one day and said outright, which was very stupid of the man to say, but he did, why can't you be like your brother? And I, I walked around sort of thinking No, that's what people think of me. Okay, you know, I, I didn't— I didn't get depressed, but I, I wasn't that happy. I didn't have particularly— a particularly warm relationship with my parents. I did later in life, but I didn't then. Uh, anyway, I'm not complaining one iota. I'm obviously— I'm not complaining. I'm just— I just— people shouldn't think which they tend to— what's like when they meet a happy— when an unhappy person meets a happy person, they think, oh, they've had an easy life.

Yes, it's so true, right?

So, and same with a healthy person. Oh, he's just lucky. I am lucky, but I worked on this. I wanted to be happy and I wanted to be healthy.

That's what I was going to say. You don't have a lot of dysfunction, really. I mean, Yeah, in, in many ways. You're not professionally dysfunctional, you're not personally dysfunctional. Like, you're, you're so, you're so rarely not dysfunctional, right?

So it's very touching to me you said that. I, I called up my, uh, first daughter-in-law before I got my second daughter-in-law. I don't know, I, I called her. I don't know if— I guess it was a telephone call.

Mm-hmm.

Or it might have been in person, it doesn't matter. But I said to her, I just want you to know, I was thinking about this, Miriam, and I want you to know I, I have one major aim vis-à-vis you. I want to be easy in your life. I don't— everybody has issues, especially raising 4 kids as she is. Her two and the two with my son. And, uh, I just— I, I don't want to add in any way to your burden in life, which it's easy for a parent or a parent-in-law to do, right? Add burdens to their kids' or kids-in-law's life. I— so I actually have developed this into a theory on, on life. That one of your goals in life— you should try to be a decent person, and— but one of your 5 or even 3 biggest goals should be to be easy. It's a huge thing.

Well, I'm, I'm saying that, you know, you're such an easy person to have a relationship with because I know that you, you've worked on it, and I'm trying right now too I mean, I hope I'm naturally an easy person to have a relationship with, but I even find when I'm moody sometimes, I'm trying to knock myself.

From my perspective, you're very easy.

Well, thank you.

Have a relationship with—

I want to get that one on the record. I'm sure I can whip that out when it's useful. My sister or parents ever go, you're being so moody, I'll be like, well, Dennis thinks I'm easy.

Yeah, you tell them.

But I—

well, The unexamined life, Sean, is telling me.

Yes, Socrates. It's Socrates.

Socrates.

Yes. The unexamined life is not worth living. You said the examined life, but we all know.

Wait, did I say the examined life is not worth living?

This is going to be like the almond.

Did I say that?

I think you did.

The examined life is not worth living.

I think he did.

It's not worth living.

I think you did say that.

I really blew that. Why didn't you correct me?

Well, I didn't want to interrupt you. I'm trying to be more conscious of interrupting.

No, you're not that easy.

But see, actually proves my point because in every way right now, and I've said this on the show, I'm really, I'm trying to just steer myself well in life. I'm trying to be a healthy, easy person. I'm trying to get rid of my moodiness. But another thing is I'm trying to reduce my habit of, I think I interrupt you too often on this show.

If anything, I interrupt you too often, but I don't think either of us does it too often. You, you are, by the way, Because I'm so used to dialoguing, you know, and then with listeners. You are remarkable. I know this is really praise day. I feel bad. I'll have to insult you, or you'll have to—

Yeah, well, we can get to insults.

Yeah, so, but you— I don't think you ever interrupt me.

In fact, happy to hear it.

You— I mean, literally ever. And to your credit, as soon as you see me inhale to say something, I shut up. Yes. And a lot of people keep, keep talking, not picking up on the fact that the other person wants to say something.

Well, it sounds contradictory because I'm about to start the sentence with I, but, but one of the things that I am also trying to work on is, I think, so there's such an unfortunately valid stereotype among people my age that we are narcissists and we bring everything back to ourselves. So I try really hard to be aware of that. And because I find when the worst thing is being in a discussion and you know the other person just cannot wait till you're done so that they can talk about themselves. I mean, it's not an—

it's not— or, or, or not react to what you said.

Yes. Or just go off on a completely different exit ramp. I mean, I don't know if it's something that I really have to work on, 'cause I think I am naturally, certainly with you, I never think, oh God, I want 'em to be done talking so that I can cut in. But I'm, I'm really, I'm trying in every way. Again, I think this just to bring it full circle back to this point that we're talking about is that You, you were not born being completely healthy or easy to have a relationship with. You have worked hard at being healthy. And it's what you said earlier, when people are happy or when people are healthy, there's this perception that, oh, they must have had it so easy in life, or, oh, it's something that they were born with. That is not true. Every single thing in life requires hard work, including being happy and being healthy.

Period. Yes, that's right.

And so that's why I'm so militant with myself in every way, trying to steer myself, because I know maybe later in life if I'm a, you know, happy, healthy person, people are gonna think it came easy to me. But I can tell you right now, as I'm going through the hard work, it's not easy.

You have struggles that I didn't have.

Right.

You could be unhappy.

Yes.

Is that fair to say?

Yeah, I mean, yes and no.

I mean, not chronically, but—

Yes, I could.

Certainly you could be a roller coaster.

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I have an interesting answer from Sue who said to me early on in our relationship, and we're together now 18 years, so, you know, not a little time. And she said, you, Dennis, have no black boxes. And I— she introduced me to a very important theme in life. What's a black box? A, a, an opaque area of life in a person that in which lurks unhealthy stuff and may come out and probably will one day. Am I clear?

So, so Sue is saying you don't have—

I don't have— yes.

Well, that's why—

why don't I? Well, for one thing, I, I believe in transparency. It When I feel that I don't know everything about somebody, I, I get, uh, I, I'm suspicious that there was something— something is going to explode one day. You see, black boxes explode. It just, you know, something, something simply happens. That makes the black box open up. Now, obviously you can't know immediately, and some people are great actors. Shakespeare's, you know, great line: all the world's a stage and we're all actors. And so people know how to act. But anyway, I have worked on transparency. I'm transparent on the radio. I'm more transparent on the radio than many people are in their personal lives. People say to me two things when they first meet me. The most common things are, "God, I didn't know you were that tall," because they only see me seated. And the other is, "I feel like I know you," to which I've always responded, "You do." There's no— well, you can testify— there's no off-the-air Dennis that is different.

Even on this show, sometimes when we're like, we don't even know that we're on.

That's right, we're just— it's so— it's very real.

Yes, it's very real.

I love real. To me is everything. I love real. Anyway, look, I, I, you know, everyone has battles, uh, but, um, Steve Marmer sitting in that seat, our dear mutual friend psychiatrist UCLA, or was at UCLA. I think he's left medical school. And he, uh, he mentioned to me, either was on the air or off the air, because we were talking about some issue on the Happiness Hour, and he said, you have great, uh, shock absorbers, Dennis. And I realized, that's right, I do. And I don't know if they're built in, or I, I, I think I developed them because I so ached to be happy. But I do, I have good shock absorbers. Most people are rattled more easily.

I find when shocking things happen, and I feel like I also have good shock absorbers because throughout my childhood it was just with Gina, it was just shock after shock after shock. Either with her behavior or her care. I mean, literally every day it was like you just didn't know what to expect. I find the best thing to do, and I know it's really hard, is to just have like this total calmness when, when you hear a really big piece of bad or shocking news. Just tell yourself, calm, calm, calm, calm, calm. Because it— and I know that sounds really stupid to say because people are going to go, I'm going crazy right now. No, people are going to go, wow, Julie, what a profound thought. You should be calm when you have— when something shocking happens. No, but no blank Sherlock.

It's, it's not— it is profound, and it is, it is an aspect of you, another one that just blows my mind. So I have my way of putting it. I wonder if you've heard me say this. So I think, what if I were on a plane that was just, you know, for whatever reason its engines shot out.

Oh my gosh, I think about that all the time. How would I react?

So here is my answer to you. None of us knows, obviously. You don't know until you're in the position. But this— I have two responses to that. I think about this fairly often, not out of fear. I just think about it. Number one, the thing I most fear is not that we are falling out of the sky. And will die. The thing I most fear is people screaming and panicking. So that part 2 is, I would hope— I'm not saying I would, I might scream also, I don't know— but I would hope that I could stand up and say, let us all recite Psalm 23: The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. And hopefully bring calm in, in the face of potentially imminent death.

It's a very, very touching thing. I just got the chills when you said that.

Well, it gives you an idea of wanting to think about everything, which I'll tell you another lesson from this. I feel like I'm talking too much, but you're not. Okay, well, thank you. So this question of, gee, I don't know how I would react, is a very fair statement. How do I know how I would react if my plane were falling out of the sky, right? Okay, that's fair. But I do believe that you can train yourself in advance.

Yes, that's, that's what I was trying to say. You can, you can. That's what sometimes when shocking things happen, people go, oh my gosh, I can't help I can't help, you know, my crazy reaction to this. You can help it.

That's right.

And if you tell yourself to be calm, it—

you— or tell yourself, how would I want to react?

Yes, it, it slows down the gravity of the moment for you. And it— and it— the way you react initially says so much about how you'll be able to react down the line as you're dealing with whatever shocking thing it is.

Well, I want to give you another example. When I ask kids— and I'm going to ask this next week in Miami— I'm speaking at my grandson's school.

Wow. They're letting you speak there?

Well, it's a Jewish school.

That's true. And it's my—

No, no, it's an Orthodox school. I'm not sure.

I'm sure they're thrilled that you're coming.

Yeah, they are. Obviously, they wouldn't have invited me, but I am going to ask them the question I've been asking since I was your age and talking to high school kids or even elementary school kids. And that is, would you save your dog or a stranger first if both were drowning?

Oh wow.

So I, as I've— it's the same results today as 40 years ago. One-third say the dog, one-third the stranger, one-third don't know. I always give them the option, if you don't know, you vote I don't know. So one-third says they don't know. So I'm bringing this into this issue of you train yourself before the situation. If you don't know how you would react if your dog and a stranger were drowning, Now that they are not drowning, you have to decide before the event happens, how should I react?

It's the weirdest thing that you say this because I think about that obsessively, obsessively. And even, I mean, I think a lot because, you know, I talk to you about it a lot. How am I going to react when Dennis Prager dies? How am I going to react if I get a call that my mom was in a terrible— I mean, God forbid, was in a, you know, terrible car accident, died. I, I think about those scenarios a lot. I'll tell you, when I came into the studio today, Sean knows, I was talking with him outside and I felt like there was an earthquake. And it was because I was going up in the elevator to come to this floor and I thought, okay, Julie, if there's an earthquake today and the ceilings fall in and, you know, everything turns into mayhem, how are you going to react? I like, I obsessively think about these scenarios all the time. Even, even just like right now, what if I, even like when it, the moment doesn't call for it, I'll go into a restaurant and I'll be like, what if a shooter walked in? How would you react?

So now to give you an idea of how unique what, what we're doing with this podcast, in general today as well, how open you force— and I'm open anyway, but, uh, you ask, how will you react when I die? I ask, how will I react when I die? I want to die gracefully.

You mean when you're near death?

Yes, when I'm near death. I, I don't want to be pitiful. That's a big, a big thought in my mind. Now, just for the record, my, my father died at 96, my mother at 89. I— so I still have a while here if genes are important. I also have everything going for me health-wise. I have a lot of friends, I have a community, I have a religious life, and they— everyone, even secular scientists, acknowledge the staggering importance of— oh, I even have pets. They say if you rub a dog regularly, I'm not doing it. Not Coco. Coco doesn't let me. Yes.

And Dennis has this rescue dog who I'm sorry is kind of a demon.

Cuckoo.

I call her cuckoo. Call her cuckoo.

Yes.

She's—

But the other two, Otto and Snoopy, who are worldwide, of worldwide renown, I do rub. But anyway, I have— I mean, look, I could get cancer tomorrow. I'm totally aware of that. But, but that's true for you. I mean, you could get— one could get cancer tomorrow at any age. It's not more— I don't know if it's more likely. It's an interesting question. At my age, you're more likely to get cancer than at 50 or 30. I don't know. I mean, my aunt died at 34 or whatever of cancer. Sue's sister died at around 34 of cancer. I mean, it's, uh, that, that's two immediate families.

I'm interested to know at what age, and certainly it varies for people depending on their circumstances or, you know, genetic history. At what age generally do people start to think about their own deaths? Because you, you just said, I, I think about, you know, how I want to, right, uh, react when I'm near death. That's not something that— when I go through my scenarios, shooter in a restaurant, earthquake, I'm not thinking about my own death.

No, that—

when does it shift?

That is the great blessing of being young. You just don't think about it. And if you do, it doesn't seem real.

Yeah.

You know you'll die intellectually. We— I mean, you're out of your mind if you don't know you'll die. But you don't know it in your gut. It seems so far off as to almost be it won't happen. But as you get older, and I would say the magic— I don't know, different people have a different magic age, so I can't answer for, for the exact age, but the risk of cancer does increase as you age. There you go. That's, that's charming. Thank you for telling me.

And I know what it— this is such a bad thing to make a joke about, but, but on the show I didn't know the name. I now know that a cancer doctor is an oncologist.

Oncologist. That's what I said. Right.

Oncologist.

Right. The fact that you don't know is important.

I know, I know. It's such a bad thing to make a joke about.

But either way, but I, I, I know that.

No, it's just because I got the name wrong.

I know nothing about cancer. Because it didn't hit it in any way directly into my, in my life.

Right. So when did it—

what age do you have to— do you know your own mortality? That you're asking that too, Sean? Oh yeah. No, no, we're well aware. Yeah.

So do you think that this just popped into my mind as you were analyzing how we, we don't think that it's real at our, at my age that we're going to die. Do you think we'd be better off if we contemplated our deaths more?

Absolutely.

I think so too.

Yeah, of course.

Very interesting point.

It is a very interesting point, and I, I certainly thought about it. There was never a time in my life when I thought it can't happen to me, I'm too young, I'm too healthy, God is protecting me. There was never a, a minute in my life when I thought I couldn't die. Well, I know I want to make clear, otherwise I'll sound like a sicko, I didn't think I would Right. Okay.

No, I understand. So I am reading— rereading, I should say— this biography on Martin Luther that Eric Metaxas wrote. And I'm interviewing Eric Metaxas on my show Timeless. So, and I read this book on Martin Luther, I think, 2 years ago, and I just, I loved it. I know that sounds really nerdy, but it was, it was just amazing because Martin Luther is one of those figures who is so important to Western civilization.

And the people don't realize—

and we don't talk about him at all.

Well, people don't, because they don't talk about anything that happened.

Yeah, well, I'm saying people don't talk about what happened last year. True, that's, that's true. But even just when I was young, we learned about Columbus, or we learned about Martin Luther King. Martin Luther, who Martin Luther King was named for—

so I've read a lot of books on Luther. Luther was fascinating. And one of them, a historian wrote, he made the modern world because Protestantism made the modern world. And this is no knock on the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has been around, was around 1,500 years before Luther. I mean, that's— and the Jews were around 1,500 years before the Catholic Church, 1,300 to be precise. It is really— the whole thing is remarkable. Luther is a mixed bag.

He— oh, certainly. I mean, I find him to be fascinating because— and I'll get back to my point on death that I want to bring up with regard to Luther. But he, growing up, was a very serious individual. And he had this affliction. He actually coined a term. I can't remember. It starts with an A and it's a German name, where he talked about how hard he was on himself. And he He identified it in a term where like he literally could not go throughout the day without thinking that he was going to go to hell. He was just so wracked with guilt and he thought that he was unworthy to be a priest, unworthy to be a monk, and he was constantly fearing that he was a grave sinner going to hell. And then later in his life, He was like a total jokester and he was known for being a famous ribber and, you know, he was just— it's so funny how he, how he made a 180 in his disposition. Anyway, I digress, but welcome to Dennis and Julie. Have you ever picked up a towel set because it felt really soft in the store, but then when you go home to use it, it's not very absorbent? It's basically a towel that's leaving you out to dry. Well, that's why MyPillow has developed the MyPillow Towels. Towels that work. I know, it's mind-blowing. Towels that actually dry you. Their 6-piece towel set includes 2 bath towels, 2 hand towels, and 2 washcloths. They come in a variety of colors, and right now you can receive a 6-piece towel set for only $39.98 with the promo code Hartman. Go to mypillow.com right now and click on the radio listener special. MyPillow products come with a 10-year warranty and a 60-day money-back guarantee. To receive this great offer on the 6-piece set off of MyPillow towels, just go to mypillow.com and click on the radio listener square and enter the promo code Hartman, or call 1-800-761-6302. Go to mypillow.com, promo code Hartman. Back to the point why I brought up Martin Luther. In his early life, I think this happened twice before he turned 18. He had two near-death experiences, both of which influenced his decision to drop out of law school and enter into a monastery. First, he was riding a horse and his sword went into his leg and it hit an artery and he started bleeding to death. And one of his riding companions rode and got a doctor and doctor came back patched it up. Luther went home later that day. In the night, the wound opened again and he almost died a second time. And he wrote that he was lying there thinking about how he was going to die and how, you know, was he going to go to heaven? How has he lived, et cetera? That was the first big thing. The second one, and this is the most famous story with him, is that he was also riding a horse from his home back to his university when he encountered a great lightning storm. And a lightning bolt came down and he says was just inches away from hitting him. And it's that moment when he got off of his horse, got down on his knees and prayed to God, I think St. Anne specifically, and said, if you save me, I will become a monk. Anyway, sorry to give you a little Luther history lesson, but I love this. I think this guy is so interesting. But it just made such a powerful impression on me. First of all, how frequent it was to have near-death experiences back in the 16th century, or even— I mean, it's pretty recent in world history that we— that people every day in general don't fear their, their deaths or death from giving birth. Yes. Oh, it's, it's just crazy. And I thought, would Luther have entered the monastery and then had his whole kind of awakening and as that author says, shape the modern world if he didn't have those near-death experiences? Probably not. I mean, he says that that lightning strike or that, you know, the sword going into the artery, those were the two things that made him want to do that. And it made me think we would probably— I mean, again, it's so paradoxical to say, and it goes back to my earlier point about my sister Gina, how in this awful way I am a stronger, better person as a result of her suffering. We would probably all be stronger, better, wiser people more purposeful people if we had more near-death experiences?

A girl got up at one of my lectures at one of— at some college, some university. And I always say, if you disagree with me, you will get to speak first. So she came up, she said, are you saying to me— are you saying to us that women are not oppressed in this society? I said, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Women are not oppressed in this society. And I was, I was thinking, she has no idea what suffering or oppression or persecution— about none. If you think you're oppressed as a woman in, in anywhere in the Western world, you, you have no perspective on life. That's why it's important to think about death. That's why it's important to read about death. That's why it's important to read about the suffering of 100 million people under communism, the millions under Nazism. You need to know about the ubiquity and intensity of evil. You need to know if you are sinning against yourself, if that's possible, but certainly sinning against the persecuted. Not to know what a Korean comfort woman was?

Well, remember, I was guest hosting for you. And I made the mistake of saying that they were Japanese women. Remember that? So thanks for reminding me of that. But actually, I did. The, the, the horrible part is I did know what a Korean— I knew that they were Korean women, and I just misspoke. But anyway, you're right. But you had to rub that in, didn't you?

To rub something in unaware of that, of you're doing the rubbing, is an achievement. Can I say it's the naïveté? The whole left is based on naïveté. People are basically good. America is an oppressive society. Uh, you know, capitalism stinks. It's all based on a childish naïveté about life. You don't realize how good things are because they are so good. And so you could sit there like John Lennon's idiotic song Imagine. You know that song?

Yes.

Oh God, is that a stupid song.

Okay, I have a, I have a question for you because I was listening to Simon and Garfunkel's Sound of Silence.

Yes.

What do you think of that song?

Well, I love the song and I have no clue what the words are. I am entirely addicted to music and instruments, not to words and songs. I feel terrible saying it, but it's the truth.

That's how I feel about Imagine. I agree with you. If you listen to the words, it's an idiotic song, right? But the melody, I think, is quite nice.

I agree with you, but I know the words because they They are the words of a great number of people of my generation. He was older than me, but, but still, I'll call him, you know, baby boomer generation, whatever, whatever he was in.

What about the Beach Boys' God Only Knows?

Well, I don't know the words. What are the words?

He doesn't know this.

I'm— I would like to— Sean, Sean, play the music because, do you know, I love the Beach Boys.

By the way, I'm interviewing someone on my show who's an expert on the Beach Boys. Yeah, David Leaf.

They were fantastic. I, I, by the way, one of their songs is the theme song of For Goodness Sake, my first video.

Oh, you have to tell the story of the, the astounding amount of self-control you exhibited in that.

Uh, not now, but I, I, you're right.

All right, let's hear it.

Oh, of course I know this. I just didn't know the words. Their music is fantastic.

I love this song.

I want it at my wedding. This is the theme song of For Goodness' Sake.

Oh, really?

I have the chills. We're getting to the refrain, right?

Yeah. God only knows what I'd be without you.

If you should ever leave me, well, life will still go on, believe me.

The world would still look down to me, so what good would living do me?

God only knows what I'd be without you. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I don't know if that's— yeah, he sounds— Sean says it sounds like the codependence anthem. That's funny. All right, it's a little romantic. Don't be, don't be cynical, Sean.

Cynical Sean.

Anyway, it's, it's like another session of reality. This, this thing about Living in a make-believe world and not knowing how good it is. If you don't know how bad it was, then you don't know how good it is. And they don't know how bad it was.

So it's odd. Like, does God just want us in a perpetual state of, I don't know, uh, mediocrity in the sense of that your life isn't really prosperous, but it also isn't really bad? Because it seems like the more pro— the biggest problem facing the United States, and this is a controversial statement, but nevertheless I'm going to say it, the worst problem facing the United States is that we've had it so good.

Yeah, well, I've said secularism plus affluence equals boredom.

That is what is causing all of the issues.

The poor are not bored because they have to work to get a meal, and the religious are not bored because they have God and religion.

So it raises a design question for God.

No, not really. He— look, it might have, but he gave an antidote.

It's true, he did.

Yeah, and it's up to us whether we take it seriously. I don't know, I don't reflect on God much. I, I— my only reflection is, what does God want from me?

I don't reflect on God much, says Dennis Prager. Really?

Is that— yeah. Oh no, no, okay, you're right. I'm glad you you, you asked me to amplify on it. I reflect on God constantly, but I don't reflect on God's nature or what— why, why did God make the world this way? You know, my joke, you know, my first question to God will be, why did you make the mosquito? I mean, I, I—

it's interesting. I— that's where we do differ. I do think about his nature a lot. I know, right?

But I don't know if you can come to any answer.

No, I mean, you can't, but it's nevertheless quite interesting. I mean, I I'll tell you one example, and I know we're probably almost out of time, and telling this is opening up a big discussion. But, and by the way, this does pertain to my sister Gina. I feel like I've been talking about her a lot in the past two episodes, and I'm again conscious of talking about myself too much, but we haven't talked about her for most of the show, so I hope I'm not belaboring it. Anyway, I do, in Ever since I became religious, I've been thinking more about why God made Gina this way. And I've developed a theory. And I don't, you know, how could you know if it's true? But I'm not totally convinced of it. But it's something that has kept coming back to me is I do feel like a lot of problems and suffering in life are tests. And I have started to wonder whether or not Gina is a living embodiment of God or a way for God to kind of test me or test people who encounter Gina. Because the closer I get to Gina, the more that I— what I love about Gina is also what I love about God. And the closer I get to Gina, the closer I feel to God. For instance, Gina is the embodiment of forgiveness. She has been abused in her group homes. She has been treated terribly by people in society. And every time she meets a new person, every time she has a new caretaker, she is so sweet and kind to them and, and accepts them with open arms and tries to remember their names. She is a living embodiment of forgiveness. She's also a living embodiment of being a contradiction. You know, she's both in many ways so lovely and so innocent. And as I was saying last episode, you know, someone who I have a lot of empathy for. And then on the other hand, sometimes I'm so angry with her and she can be so volatile with her behaviors. You know, she helps me become more patient. She helps me become more kind. And she helps, she gives me—

How does this go to God?

People like her.

So my problem with that is that it makes human beings objects. Gina, I can't accept— I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying I can't accept that God would make someone suffer so as to be a moral test for another.

I know it's hard for me to— to—

right, so my answer is God didn't make her this way. God allowed her to be this way. I don't believe God made her this way. Way. I, I am 100% convinced he didn't make her that way. And by the way, if you believe that God did, I don't have a problem with that, right? It's what I meant when I don't reflect on God much. I don't ask those questions. Did God, did God make this person to have cancer, this person to be healthy? I don't, I don't any longer ask the unanswerable. I'm not saying you shouldn't. You have such a fertile mind. I, I, it's a blessing that you reflect on this. But I have essentially given up. There are certain things I know I can't answer, and I rather deal with what I can answer. What does God want from me? And my biggest passion, to make people aware that the post-Judeo-Christian world is a cesspool and it will self-destruct. And it is self-destructing. That's the point. The university is a cesspool. And it is the least religious place in society, and they are entirely related. There is no wisdom in a secular institution. I know you've heard me say this 100 times. I'll say it another 100, hopefully another 1,000, because I want to be here for a long time. I'm having a great time.

That's what's going to be on your tombstone, you told me. He had a great time.

Yeah, that's true. And hopefully gave some others the ability to have one. I would like you to add that too. Anyway, it's, it's not imminent.

Thank, thank God. I mean, I, I hope and pray not. I know, but again, I think about, I think about how I would handle it. Yeah, but anyway, I do, I do think about God's nature, and obviously my sister's the reason, but, uh, I, I agree more generally. I think about what he wants of us.

That's what matters. This was a good one.

Yes, it was.

We were kind of all over the place today, but I don't think that's so. It was all generically related, but it doesn't matter. It was good stuff.

I don't mean, I don't mean that as a criticism. I think it's a fun thing that we go off these exit ramps. You can email me at julie@julie-hartman.com, and I am being, I am much better at responding. So please, please keep emailing me. I love hearing from you, and I'm deeply moved by many of your messages. And you can follow us. Dennis, what, this is a good quiz. What is our Instagram handle? Do you know?

What did she just ask me?

Do you know our Twitter handle? This is what you've got to memorize. This—

you're right, my wife is very annoyed at me for not knowing Twitter.

It's @DennisJuliePod. I say it every damn show.

Dennis Julie Pod. I was waiting.

And what's our Facebook name?

Our Facebook name is Coca-Cola Should Not Be Drunk That Often.

We're never gonna get followers this way.

Just a bit outside. What? Both reactions were perfect. Just a bit outside. And yours, we're not gonna get any followers this way. Remind me To tell you, Dennis and Julie podcast, a huge flaw in, in my own life is how little I have promoted myself. I know it sounds like it's a phony flaw, but it's a real flaw.

I am the same way.

But I— no, you're not.

No, I am. I am bad at social media. People my age, if you look at Amala, Amala is so good with social media. She's always posting. I'm like delinquent and negligent.

But I have a— I have an interesting reason why in my case.

Why? Ah, on the next Dennis and Julie.

Exactly. By the way, she is into fountain pens, ladies and gentlemen. A source of enormous, enormous joy in my life. See you next week.

Shalom.

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