Dennis & Julie: The Tangent Hour

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Hi everybody, Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. After careful, careful thought, we decided to name our podcast Dennis and Julie. I mean, the amount of time it took to come up with that unique name.

Hey, it actually did take a lot of time. Do you remember the early iterations of the name?

You're joking.

No, I'm not joking.

We had something other than Dennis and Julie.

Oh my God. You don't remember the emails?

Bob and Carol and what?

No, no. You wanted to call it Generations or Two Generations, which isn't a bad name because it's sort of our shtick.

That is interesting.

But Someone, I'm not going to say who, but someone wanted to call it Dennis and the Harvard Whiz. How dumb is that? Sorry to the person at Salem who proposed that, but that's pretty bad.

But the person who proposed it is not a dummy.

No, the person who proposed it is a dummy. It was a dumb idea. That was so bad.

I want to make that clear.

And Dennis wrote back, it was so funny because we were just like exchanging emails, and Dennis writes back, What, what are we going to call it? Julie and the Columbia Whiz? Like, how does, you know, what does it matter? The—

no, no, no. It would be the Harvard Whiz and the Grad School Dropout.

That would be good. Yeah, we can do it.

That's right. You know, those who attack me on the internet, and they are legion, they— that is actually one of those that they point, they point They, they will almost never say— not that I care, obviously— but they will— they won't say Dennis was at graduate school at Columbia University. Say Dennis is a grad school dropout. They say like, that's a disgrace. So I— by the way, for the record, just for the record, I don't know if I mentioned this, let me know, but for the record, I left in order to write a book. That book is still, 50 years later— is it almost 50? 48 years later— the best-selling English language introduction to Judaism ever written. So what, was it worth leaving graduate school not to do a master's thesis on Lenin? Um, yes.

I think you made the right choice.

I just, that's my hunch.

When I was thinking about writing a thesis, I'm so glad I didn't, but I was really, I was debating it so much. I actually called Sue, Dennis's wife and research extraordinaire and also fabulous advice giver. And I was going through topics with her and I came to the conclusion, first of all, why would I write a thesis after losing a year and a half of in-person college experience? So I'm going to spend my senior year, my last year back in college, in the library? No. Also, if I— I'm going to write a conservative thesis. You think the history department's going to award me a magna or a summa when I write? I actually wanted to write on Black Lives Matter. I wanted to write a thesis exposing Black Lives Matter and talking about civil rights movements in US history and how Black Lives Matter is a terrible distortion of a civil rights movement. And I didn't think that would go over well.

That reminds me of something just recently published that in certain debating societies in either college or high school, there are positions that are no longer takeable in debates. And they gave two examples that America is not systemically racist. It's not even a position worthy of debate. And the other is that Israel is right in the Middle East conflict.

Yeah, well, you, you at Oxford did the debate on the question of the debate was who's at fault, Hamas or Israel?

Who's the greater obstacle to peace? Imagine that. As I said, I'm very proud of that. It's on the internet. People could watch it. Dennis Prager at Oxford. And I said this would be the first time in history of a conflict between a free society and a tyranny, that the free society was the one that wanted war.

Yep. Well, you said when we went to that fun debate where my friends came, when you were debating the rabbi on whether people are inherently good or not, you said, I feel today, just the premise of this debate, the question, are people inherently good? It is as bizarre as As having the premise be, is Hamas or Israel the issue?

Do your friends know that anything they ever say to you will be remembered?

You know, you have to ask my friends.

Well, we have one who's here with her grandfather who's sitting in, and they're the first guests we have ever allowed on the show. And What about Amala?

Yeah, we did have Amala. Well, we had Amala as a— as a—

oh no, Amala was on the show. No, no, no. These are folks just who are in the studio. Okay, so Sean will go to the punishment room later for a totally irrelevant note, but he's batting very high percentage. Anyway, it is an indication of the closeness that you have with your friend.

Oh yes.

By the way, it's a very touching thing when I see a child and a grandparent. The, the opportunity that people have been both directions— grandparents to grandchildren and children to grandparents, grandchildren to grandparents— is unique in the human experience. It's a— and I'll give you— I always throw out generalizations but always give specifics. So The, uh, I'll tell you, my own, my own parents, my parents were not particularly warm to their children, my brother and me. I say this with, by the way, zero anger, zero negativity, and God knows not to hurt them. I'm just describing that was not uncommon in the World War II generation. These were not you know, oh, I love you, oh, you're terrific, oh, you, you did a great bowel movement. This was— that was not the generation. Okay, so this is the, the only reason I'm mentioning it is they were transformed when they became grandparents.

Oh really?

Then they became incredibly loving and warm, and it was— we knew it, we all knew it, it wasn't a secret. That they, they acted differently toward the grandchildren than toward the children. And the, the other way around, there are kids— the almost every child on earth has had some ambivalence about a parent. It doesn't almost exist. It exists, but it's very rare the other way. But the— on Not all occasions at all, but on many occasions, the feelings of a grandchild to a grandparent— not necessarily all four, but to at least one— are unique in the human experience. I have had people tell me, oh, my grandfather just died, my grandmother just died, and they are really Upset is an understatement. It's a blow, their closeness to that grandparent. And one final word on that: I tell grandparents who are not thrilled with their children's values, life has sort of given you another chance to influence your progeny by your touching your grandchild's life. So it's a very powerful thing.

Yeah, it's almost like another round.

Did you have a strong grandparent?

No, I didn't. And you know, I'm not just saying this because my dear friend is here watching, though it's certainly a plus that I'm saying it while my dear friend is here watching, but she's always been so close with her grandparents from the time that we were, that I've known her, when I met her when I was 12. I mean, always talking about them, always with them, always having dinners with them. She really does honor them. And she's so close with them. I can't think of another friend, honestly, that I have that has as close of a relationship with her or his, but I have mostly girlfriends, grandparents as my friend Gabby. It's rare. And I admire that a lot about her. Certainly she has great grandparents that make it easy to be close with. But I think it's just, we live in this culture where your grandparents don't really matter. I didn't have, a close relationship with my grandparents growing up, just 'cause they were so, they live in Boston and in New Hampshire, and they were very, very old. My parents are old parents to begin with. I'm super young compared to my sisters. So 3 out of my 4 are dead. So I didn't really have the opportunity to be close to them. But my parents always, always inculcated in me as a child, you call your grandparents once a week. You have to do that.

Me too. Do you know, you'll, oh, this is awesome. I remember my grandmother's number. Slocum 6. This is so far back. Oh, you— I know this is great that you don't know this. I'll tell you in a moment.

Okay.

Slocum 60737. I don't think I've said that number in, in 40 years. And it's— so what is Slocum? But so we now have, uh, what is it, uh, 7-digit numbers. Plus area code, but leave the area code aside because we had area codes then too. But when I was a kid, I mean really a kid, because it changed probably when I was in college. When I was a kid, your number, instead of, of, uh, let's say my phone number growing up was Dewey 65544. So that means D-E-6-5-5-4-4. So I don't know what DE is in numbers, but what they did was they dropped the words. Instead, they gave you a number, but it's much easier to remember a number. This was just done for ease. Oh, 33. Oh, I didn't know. Okay, so Dewey would be 33, so be 3365544. But when I grew up, it was Dewey65544.

So what was, what was your grandparents' name?

Slocum. S-L. So whatever S and L are Oh, I, you know, there were, there were a whole host of these, but you didn't know this.

Okay, I'm laughing because I thought it was like a Jewish, like, Hebrew. I thought it was like a Jewish—

oh no, no, this was universal in America. It had nothing to do— even Gentiles had these numbers.

It's like, okay, I'll give a, I'll give a tangential example, and then I want to go back to this grandparents point. So working with Dennis for now, it's been like 3 years. I did that summer with you and Then we did Dennis and Julie out of my dorm room, and now here we are. I would sit in the control room with Sean and just try to learn and talk to him about things. And whenever Sean's cueing you to go out, when you're done with your radio segment, he goes, "Zilla," which means 30 seconds. And I knew it was code for 30 seconds, but I thought it was some like, because you're what, trilingual, quadrilingual?

A few languages.

Many languages. I thought it was some like Dennis name, like some, some Hebrew for like 30. It's Godzilla. It's just short for Godzilla. He just wanted something to be—

well, I want— I, uh, it's, it's not important, but how it happened was years ago I said, I, you know, give me one minute, but I said if you say 30 seconds it won't be as clear because— right, so just say Godzilla. Yeah, and then it got shortened.

Okay, well that makes sense, but Oh yes, you didn't hear his comment.

See, this is my curse. I'm the one with the earphones, so I hear Sean. I took the god out of Godzilla. Is that hilarious? You don't think— you don't think that's as funny as I do?

Okay, this is a whole other Dennis and Julie tangent.

Little tiny applause.

I'll tell you, it's another Dennis and Julie tangent. I sometimes don't get male humor.

Oh, that's good.

I will be— I'm going to be totally honest.

I love your honesty.

I don't really I don't get it. What do you mean you took the god out of Godzilla? I don't— I'm sorry, I don't get it.

I'll bet you Gabby's grandfather gets it. No, he just said—

I bet you Gabby doesn't.

She's a— she— he just mumbled in my earphones, and she's a Harvard graduate.

Me?

Yeah.

Oh yeah, and still doesn't get it.

And still doesn't get it.

Okay.

No, no, it's—

is there like a—

first of all, explaining a joke Ruins the joke. Yes, exactly.

I— but this happens. I will be real, you know, I love working with men. I work with all men in the studio. You guys aren't moody, you're fun to be around. I appreciate it. Sometimes I don't get it.

Correct.

There, there's— and I'm sure there's some female jokes that you guys don't get.

So, but you get the idea though that G-O-D is in Godzilla?

I do.

So by saying Zilla, I took God out of—

yeah, but that's just literally describing what he did. How is that funny?

It sounds like I did something that an atheist would do. Well, that an atheist activist would.

So that's funny.

Sean is cracking up at the fact that you don't get how funny it is.

Okay, well, forget me.

Okay, anyway, anyway, the grandparent thing, it's for parents like mine a second opportunity. Uh, that's one thing. Another is I, and I say this to grandparents a lot in speeches, a lot of parents are unhappy with how their kids turned out. Not that they're murderers or bike robbers, but that their values are often pretty awful.

Well, then they probably worry it's going to be passed on to the grandchild.

That's right. And I tell them, unless you have no relationship with your grandchildren because your children don't even allow one, which happens a lot tragically and evilly, you should try to influence your grandchildren. I mean, do it delicately and obviously with love, but, you know, you— let's say you're— you have religious commitment and your children have none, which is very common. So take your children unless— take your grandchildren unless your child objects, which is really frightening to think, but it could happen. Take your children to church or synagogue with you. And, and, you know, then have a wonderful yummy lunch or breakfast before it, whatever you want to do. But that would just be an example. I live very far from my two grandsons, and so I am on Zoom almost every week with the older one. And by the way, It's a loss being across the country. They're in Florida, I'm in California. It's a long trip. Considering how far they are, I see them more often than most people might because I get to Florida a great deal because of speeches and so on. But it is the way life works. I'll tell you what I mean by that, and even that I want to explain. So here's a real challenging thought for you. When I said earlier that my parents, you know, were not particularly warm parents to my brother and me, and I said, and I swear before God Almighty, I'm not complaining, they gave me so much that, that has lasted, and certainly they became much more loving as I got to be an adult and so on. But they, they did that. One of the reasons they did not shower us with love is because they were fulfilled with each other. And as I got older and older and older, because they died in '89 and '96, mother and father respectively, so they lived a long time. I was more and more grateful that they found each other the greatest source of comfort and love, because parents who have that tend not to be preoccupied with their children. And no child wants to be preoccupied with— I, I told everyone in my life how lucky I was that my parents had each other so that they, you know, they were proud of me and all of that stuff, but I wasn't the center of their life. And believe it or not, maybe a narcissistic child wants to be the center of parents' life, and especially maybe at 9, but at 29, 39, 49, and 59, you don't want to be the center of your parents' life.

Parents have a difficult— I mean, parents have a difficult job in many ways, but they have to toe a line between making their kids feel loved and cared for and prioritized, but also, to your point, not being too much in their face. I mean, that's— any child doesn't want that. I did a speech with you once and someone came up to you and said— you probably don't remember this— and said, Dennis, can you tell my son to, uh, date this girl that I have? And she Showed you a photo that, you know, at the synagogue, because he won't listen to me if I tell him. That's a universal with kids. Just want their parents to go away sometimes. It is a great burden when your parents try to live through you and try to.

And it's very common.

It's very common.

It's— that's the story. What was it, the story of, um, God, just a famous movie that just came out? Oh yes, the girl. Yes, Elvis Presley's very, very, very young wife. Oh, that the, the mother of that girl wanted this young girl, this teenage girl, to be with Elvis Presley because he was a star. She lived through her daughter. It's, it's, it's somewhat of a famous story. I, I didn't know it because I don't know pop culture that well, but It is a somewhat famous story and it, it is not uncommon and it's awful.

I think it's a relatively recent phenomenon in American history though. I, I, I would say I, I did a segment on my show about helicopter parenting as opposed to free range parenting. And a lot of the op-eds and the, the guidebooks about parenting really started to proliferate in the 1980s and '90s. And my, preliminary hypothesis is that as American society became more affluent, parents started to see their children as another commodity or as another way that they could maintain a social status over others. Think about the typical forms of status. You drive a nice car, you live in a nice house, you, you know, belong to a nice country club. You travel a lot. Kids, I think, were seen as this fertile ground of they can give me new street cred, especially in the areas where I lack. So I think, I think it's fairly recent. But—

oh no, no, no, don't be sorry if you have something more to say on that. But it's— so this is a very interesting question, how new it is. I hadn't thought about that. I didn't think of it in terms of new. I have a joke about it. It's not a joke you know, haha, but it's a joke that I tell that's true.

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I have a joke about it. It's not a joke, you know, hahaha, but it's a joke that I tell that's true. That when I go around, I mean, you know this, people stop me for selfies, restaurants, airports, wherever it is, and I'm very Very touched by it, by the way. I never got jaded for a second. Anyway, as I often note, I never know if it's a Jew or a non-Jew. How would I know? But I know it's a Jew immediately if the person tells me what college his or her child goes to. That it's no Gentile in the history of Gentiles.

You're so wrong. I know so many Gentiles who do.

Okay, then. Okay, that's very important that you said that, and I accept that you're right, and I won't— I'll still tell the joke because it's funny. Okay, but at least I'll know it isn't necessarily true. It's a very bad development. My worth comes from the college my kid got into. I can't think of— I mean, I'm sorry because I'm going to hurt some people's feelings, but I don't mean to. It's just such a bad idea and it doesn't reflect well on you. And anyway, what do you do after they graduate? Do you say, oh, you know, my son went to Cornell? What do you— do you drop that when he's 40? You know, 20 years ago, Charlie went to Cornell. I mean, I don't get it. I told— forgive me, I know you're dying to say something.

No, I'm not.

I don't know. I raised my kids. I was just interviewed by the Independent Women's Forum, uh, did a podcast right, right before a recent show, and she asked me what is my advice on raising kids. And, uh, I gave 3 answers, which I won't get into, but one of them was that all I told my boys— and I'm saying this publicly because I know they would not refute this.

Okay.

All I care is about your character. I don't care what college you go to. I don't care what your grades are, which is really rare for a parent. And I don't even care if you go to college, because I know if you have— first of all, character is infinitely more important than grades or college. But secondly, you will succeed in life if you have good character.

Why? Some— many would argue you wouldn't.

Oh well, or you won't. They're thinking in the short term.

Yes, well, that I agree with.

Okay, that's the answer. In the short term, the thief does better than the honest guy. In the long term, the thief is probably going to end up on Skid Row or in jail or dead. So, uh, character is Character Uber Alles. Since you're, uh, well, I was gonna say you're into Nietzsche, but Nietzsche wouldn't, wouldn't, didn't use Uber Alles.

He used Uber Mensch.

He used Uber Mensch. By the way, I came up with a new idea on my most recent show on radio.

Oh, you knew it? I feel like, I feel like that's not a revelation. I feel like you come up with new ideas all the time.

Well, you're right. So this is one I really like because I memorized it. So when Gavin Newsom— this is completely unrelated to grandparents or anything we just spoke about, so we should call this the tangent hour.

We— every, every DNJ is tangent hour.

Yes, yes. But so long as the tangents are important and interesting, that's all that matters, is my opinion. Anyway, so Gavin Newsom infamously ate at an expensive restaurant The laundromat. The French. The French laundry.

French.

Not laundromat. That is hilarious. The laundromat. You must keep that error. That is the most embarrassing error Julie has come up with in 35 or whatever the hell.

I thought it was called the laundromat.

I'm sure you did.

You can see I haven't dined there.

This is episode 65.

No. What was the one I said? I said annoyment.

No, that's nothing.

That was bad.

Nothing. It's a slip of the tongue. This is precious. The laundromat.

I have to say, I always thought it was called that, and for years I've been thinking that's a really bad name.

Yes, it is. So it's the French— it's French Laundry. It doesn't matter. So he— this is critical, this point, I think. So the man ruined the lives of tens of thousands or maybe 100,000 restaurant owners in California with his lockdowns. While they were all open, by the way, in Florida. It was a farce. It was much worse than a farce. It was criminal. And of course, mask mandates. Well, again, in Florida, they didn't exist at the same time. And yet he's then videoed eating at a restaurant and no mask. Okay, so everybody said, what a hypocrite. And the whole time I kept saying that hypocrisy is the least of the issues, but I couldn't figure out what the real issue was, literally until this week. Oh, I was talking about it and I said, what is the reason Nancy Pelosi can shut down the country and then go herself to a hair salon and wear no mask. Remember that one?

Of course.

Okay, again, it's not hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is, is minuscule, right? And then I figured it out. The left know— they don't think, they don't believe, they know they are ubermenschen. They are the superior being.

Yep.

And the normal laws that apply to us nothings do not apply to the Übermensch, the upper human, the better human, the overhuman, however you want to translate it. When you said Übermensch and Nietzsche, that's what that explains the left. They are— that is why they can destroy lives with lies, because they know they are morally superior, so all the normal moral rules don't apply to them. They apply to us the rabble.

You're absolutely right. Viktor Frankl said, as we noted last week, that the human race is divided into two categories: the decent and indecent. Nietzsche thought that the human race was also divided into two categories: the strong and the weak. The left thinks it's divided into two categories: them and then the peons.

The enlightened. They use the term enlightened all the time.

Yes. Absolutely.

We are in darkened.

So I had a friend in college who is sadly no longer my friend, and it really is sad because of my political beliefs. And this individual would talk a lot about, you know, doing the right thing and caring for minorities and underprivileged people, you know, super lefty. So at Harvard, we had this lottery system for our upperclassmen house. Freshmen live in the yard, and then for your remaining 3 years, you're sorted into a house. And it's a big deal which house you get into. There are 12 upperclassmen houses. It's a big deal because 99.9% of students live on campus, and you want to live in a good dorm. And the disparity in dorms is massive. Some of them are newly renovated. Some of them haven't been renovated since John Quincy Adams graced the door. I mean, seriously, like cockroaches. I mean, it's disgusting. So Harvard says it's random, the lottery. I actually believe them because Some of the students you would think would get a cushy house don't. So I think, i.e., like, you know, presidents or something. So anyway, I think it's random. But there are ways that people try to game it. One of the ways people try to game it is by claiming that they have a medical ailment so that they can live in a dorm that is in closer proximity to the medical center, Harvard University Health Services, which is in the center of campus. So all of the houses you want are near there, they're geographically desirable. This same person who would always talk to me about fairness and equity and giving people chances and all this crap, guess what he did?

What? Said he was sick?

He got a doctor's note because he was in a skiing accident months before and he had some kind of ski and he had to walk with a brace, which is Okay, probably bad, but lasted for a few months. We were freshmen at that point. The first time we'd be living in the house was in the coming year. He got a doctor to write a note that he had to be in closer proximity to the health services. And you know what? I don't think it even occurred to this individual that it was against his principles because it's just, I'm the elite, I know better, I can just do this. And Dennis, I don't think they even realize it. And I'm not trying to give a pass.

No, that's a very interesting question.

Because they're so surrounded with people who think, oh, I can just get extra time on my test in high school, you know, even if I don't have a learning disability. I can just get, you know, just all of these privileges. It's just, they don't even think about it.

Two comments. One is somewhat trivial, but still I wanna make it. I think that anyone in America could find some doctor to write anything.

Yes. Yes.

Anything.

Anything. Literally anything.

Yes.

You have gender dysphoria.

You can get it. Yes. Anything. You can get them to write. I think you could find some doctor to write. My patient, Mr. Prager, seems to have two legs, but he is convinced he has one leg. So he should be allowed on the airplane earlier during pre-boarding. Okay, the more important point that I do— by the way, it was a silly but important point. Doctors will write anything. You can find a doctor to write anything. But more important, so I have a question for you which just occurred to me based on what I said and based on your anecdote about the houses at Harvard. I now realize this, this Übermensch thing has really hit me hard. You think the average kid at Harvard sort of had an Übermensch self-image?

I know I don't— I actually met a lot of really nice, down-to-earth people. I don't want to smear it with one broad brush. I mean, of course there, there is a contingent that— and by the way, I only am saying this because I just I've read a lot of Nietzsche. I think his Übermensch mentality wasn't so much about people thinking they're superior. I mean, certainly, yes, it was that, but it was like people just recklessly, unrelentingly oppressing others in order to get ahead. Nietzsche was in favor of the slave and slave owner society. He thought, well, if you're weak, you're a slave, and if you're strong, you're— I mean, he took it to the ultimate extreme. So these, I wouldn't say like Harvard students are people who think they're better. Even the left, I wouldn't so much call them Übermensch. I would just call them, in the way Nietzsche understood it, I would just call them as pompous aristocratic elite blankety-blanks who think they're better. But they wouldn't take, I would hope they wouldn't take it as far as Nietzsche's idea of a strongman would. But the answer is no. There's a contingent for sure, but not all of them.

Well, what you described as pompous superior da da da da da, whatever else, that is my, definition of Ubermensch. It may not be Nietzsche's.

Right, okay, well, if that's yours, then yes.

I do believe that, and it's not just about Harvard. I believe all of the left, that is what they believe. And that's why I said that, look, I don't know where Newsom went to college. I don't know if he did, and I don't care. But he did not believe that the rule he made others live by applied to him, not because of hypocrisy. That's my insight. But because it doesn't have to apply to me, I'm better than you.

Yes. Well, a lot of individuals, specifically my age, I think they have this idea that they're on the right side of history.

That's right. That the moral arc bends in their direction.

Yes. Like, I, you know, I am against the evil Republican white supremacists. I'm against the police brutality. I'm against this. You know, I'm a virtuous person. So if I, you know, get a note from my doctor saying that I need to be near the medical services for a 2-month ski accident, then that's fine because overall my net contribution to society is positive into history.

That's right.

That's, that's their idea.

So they— now the question is, would they say that about us? So they, they might say, say what? Oh, oh, you guys on the right, you think you're better than others. This is a common argument given to religious people, against religious people, against conservatives as well, but it's a dishonest argument. We do think our values are better. If we didn't, why the hell would we advocate them? But I mean, I know virtually every single prominent conservative. I mean, in most cases pretty well. And they would laugh at the idea that the rules don't apply to them.

Right.

It would be inconceivable to these people to think that way. They may, they may break some rules because they're weak or they're whatever. There might be human beings. No, no side has angels. But there is no sense that the rules I advocate don't apply to me. There are individuals who will have that. Obviously, yes. It's like, you know, there was a prominent Christian— not podcaster in those days, what were they called— the televangelist. And he railed against visiting prostitutes. He was visiting prostitutes. So again, hypocrisy is a silly term to use. It's trivial compared to what he did. But that is a classic example of It doesn't apply to me. I mean, if you visit prostitutes, it's probably not a good idea to just talk about how people shouldn't visit.

I know. Just stay silent on it. Just don't go there.

You know, shouldn't be your issue.

Well, I'm glad that you brought this up because, look, of course there are everyday conservatives or everyday religious people who think that they're better. I, as you know, as I've said, subscribe to the Viktor Frankl idea. Decent and indecent. Do I happen to think that more decent people happen to vote Republican, at least right now in this country? Yes. But still, there are many indecent Republicans, and I'm sure there are decent Democrats. But I think the point of religion and conservatism is actually very humble. It's this idea that there are certain values that you place above yourself and that you are subservient to. That you follow regardless of your personal or professional, professional advantage. In other words, there are certain unchanging eternal standards that you can't go against. And so when people are advocating for those, it may come across as pedantic or like I'm better, but it's actually saying, no, the values are better than all of us, including me.

That's very important. I think that the left, as opposed to liberals— again, the left hates the idea of God-given morality. Oh yeah, because they're not humble. That, that's a definition of humility. I have to answer to God for how I behave.

It's the abortion thing, I think.

Okay, well, oh, of course it is. Listen, If a pro-choice person says, well, what about rape, what about incest, even though obviously those who think it's a human, it's a human no matter how conceived, we grant an understanding of their argument.

Of course.

Absolutely. The girl can't afford to raise a child, she has a terrible home life, we understand all of that. But my issue with the pro-choice folks is that they don't recognize that the pregnant woman might have a moral standard to which she must be judged. That's— you can't judge them.

They don't even acknowledge it. Look, we've talked about it on this show. I'm conflicted when it comes to abortion, really conflicted. I can understand both sides. Of course, I'm not an abort at 9 months kind of person. I want to make that clear. But, but I, go back and forth. But you're so right that what I dislike about pro-choice people, they won't even acknowledge that that exists. They deny. And I notice that this is the case with many left-wingers. They will not acknowledge that any of their positions may have some downsides. With regard to immigration, for instance, they will not acknowledge the downside that yes, maybe we could be welcoming great people into this country. Many great people who are immigrants have come into this country, but opens the possibility for abuse and drugs and gay— they will never ever acknowledge that. And it's the same thing with abortion. They won't acknowledge that there may be some responsibility that you as the woman who is in that unfortunate situation may have to your unborn child.

Well, there's no higher responsibility. The abortion is a very clear example of you cannot hold a pregnant woman as being judgeable. No, she is God vis-à-vis that fetus. She is God. The determiner of life and death is by definition God. The idea that there is a moral God above her is offensive to people who believe they're moral gods. That's why my Übermensch thing, it struck me as a very important new realization. It's that it's not hypocrisy. I determine the rules for me. They say that.

Yes, that's the whole point. Your truth. I— whenever people say tell your truth, there's no such thing as your truth. There's your opinion and my opinion. There's your perspective and my perspective, but there is no such thing as your truth and my truth. There is the truth that exists that is unchanging and eternal, and you can't You it or me it.

And we should pursue it.

Right. But with the abortion thing too, I mean, I feel sometimes, and I'm not trying to paint all left-wingers with one broad brush, but many of those on the left will not acknowledge the amount of nuance that comes into certain situations. I love Tom Sowell's argument that there are no solutions in life, there are just trade-offs. They, they kind of just reduce things to moral absolutes.

Wow, hold on, that line—

isn't that a great line? I use that, I use that when I spoke to UCLA.

Yeah, which book was that in? Tom Sowell is a giant.

I think it was like Discrimination and Disparities. I think there are no solutions, they're just trade-offs.

That's, that's right.

Either way, with abortion, it's a very sad—

you're not letting me levitate. You have this too, a great insight.

I know you got to let it go.

It's almost in the realm of the erotic. It is so pleasurable. Is that fair to say?

You said it, Dennis. I may agree or disagree. I grew up so culturally Catholic, I can't say the word erotic.

Oh yeah, you're right.

You Jews are very open about sexual matters.

Okay. Catholics don't acknowledge sex exists. So they'll kill you for that. But they do, but it's obviously not something—

I've never heard my parents say the word sex ever, right?

Or erotic.

I don't think they even know what that means. Yeah, sorry, go on.

Um, but all I'm saying, not to get sidetracked, although I love getting sidetracked, but not to get sidetracked, everyone should have joy from an insight that explains life. That one is beyond precious. There are no solutions, only trade-offs. I have said that in different ways, but not as well as he said it. I never said the no solutions part. What I said is— what I did say though, for years, the moment you ask what is the price, you are no longer on the left.

Or what is the consequence?

Yeah, same thing. Yeah. So when, when, when people say, well, in the name of safety, but wait a minute, what is the price you're paying? You know, they, they, they took away so much fun from kids' lives. Monkey bars. You mean during COVID No, no. Before COVID Having nothing to do with COVID Oh, the number you should look— you will find this fascinating. The number of things we played on with and with as kids in my generation that were banned because they're not safe.

Wow. I wouldn't even know.

That's right. You wouldn't even know. You know what monkey bars are?

I do.

Okay. Were they allowed in your—

Yeah, but I actually remember they were so low to the ground.

Oh, is that a joke?

My feet would drag on the ground.

Oh my God. That's all right. There you go. I remember. Give me another one. Diving boards in people's home pools. Can't have that in California.

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Now, uh, let's see, what else was there? Seesaws. Do you have— did you have seesaws? Do you even know what a seesaw is?

I do.

You don't— you didn't have seesaws? That's mind-blowing. I wonder what could possibly happen. You'll fall off. That's right, you'll fall off. So what? So they only know the— they only know the danger, but they don't know the price. The same with the lockdowns. That's why I opposed them from the beginning. Do you know the price that humanity is going to pay for your damn lockdowns? And it doesn't. What about the price that 2-year-olds have to wear masks? Do you understand the price they pay? Are 2-year-olds dying of COVID Are you out of your mind? I, I, it, it— that Americans put up with that, that airlines enforced that rule, 2-year-olds had to wear masks. This is— so that was my way of, of saying Saul's comment, that the moment you ask what is the price trade-off is his word. Price was mine. I prefer trade-off, but it doesn't matter. Then you are no longer a person of the left.

Well, my, my question for, for those on the left is, and it's come up recently with regard to the UNC and the Harvard case before the Supreme Court pertaining to affirmative action, which is going to be decided in about a month. There was, I think it was in like the UC Regents versus Bakke case, one of the cases Justice Sandra Day O'Connor wrote. In 20 years from now, we're not going to need, or we would like to phase out affirmative action. I forget the exact wording, but they essentially put 20 years as the end mark. Here we are, it's 20 years later. It remains to be seen what will happen. But my question is, what is your end goal? When are the number of hate crimes so low that racism ceases to be the number one issue in society. What, you know, President Biden said a few weeks ago at the Howard University commencement address that white supremacy is the biggest problem facing the nation. They never say when XYZ, you know, once we can get to that level, this will cease to be a problem because to them they're actually— well, it's not about the problem.

For the first book of mine, I think that you read is about the left and about America.

So that's how—

I'm still the best hope. I have a whole chapter on left-wing reliance on hysteria. That without hysteria, there is no left. The— think about it.

The people—

a lot of people believe that global warming is an existential threat. Of course, I've been told it's an existential threat now for 35 years. Al Gore wrote his first book about Earth in the Balance, that was the name, 1990. So he obviously wrote it before 1990, it came out in 1990. There was, and during the Reagan period, which obviously you should read about this 'cause you read so voraciously, there was massive preoccupation with homelessness because it was a Republican president. As soon as he was succeeded by a Democrat, The homeless issue died. Now it's back again, but right now it really is real because of what they have done with our cities and allowed the homeless to basically take over cities. But there's always been hysteria. See, oh, here's one you'll love because I get, one you'll love.

I know, I was thinking it. Wait, we need to explain to the audience. For those who don't know, Dennis and I were saying last time that we point out things that we do or things that we say that we don't notice. And one of them is Dennis goes, you'll love this.

Right now I have to remember what it is you'll love. Uh, let's see here.

Sorry. Yeah, well, this is because I was listening to one of our episodes and I realized that we don't explain some of our, like—

No, no, that's fair. So, uh, no, no, this was, uh, we were talking about homeless. Oh well, this happens every show.

It does happen every show.

It's really remarkable.

Hysteria.

I know, I know. We're talking about the various Oh yes, here it is.

Oh good.

So there was this very large hysteria about heterosexual AIDS. AIDS was overwhelmingly gay males and intravenous drug users and their partners. Okay? The group, the proof, the least affected group were lesbians. The, the group least likely to have AIDS. So it's not homophobic in any possible way that you say the truth. It was gay men and it was intravenous drug users. So I have spoken about the hysteria that they created about heterosexual AIDS in order to deflect blame, as if were blaming, but to deflect the blame from homosexuals, from gay men. To this day, there was something written— the New York Times wrote it about me— that I claimed that heterosexual AIDS was hysteria. No, I claimed that the left made it into hysteria. I didn't claim— they— so they change what I actually said as if I denied heterosexual AIDS even existed. Of course it existed, but the hysteria over it was created by the left. They never put it that way. So I think even on my own Wikipedia page, which is a picture of me I can barely recognize—

really?

Yeah, not, not the photo, I mean the description.

Oh yes, no, the description. Oh, it is bad. No, no, it's really bad, and it's inaccurate.

And I can't change it. I have no access to my own Wikipedia page. It's okay, you live with this. If you're not on the left, you'll be lied about. It is just a given. But that is a good— that is an example of where I'm lied about. They did make heterosexual AIDS into a hysteria. They didn't create that it was a myth. Of course it existed, but it was rare.

You know, the great thing about the truth, the, the actual truth, not the propagandized or politicized truth. The truth isn't racist. The truth isn't homophobic. The truth isn't transphobic. Like, it's really— it's impossible if something is, is true, but it's uncomfortable. Totally.

None of those things. Yes.

Right. Yes. That's, that's well said. That's well said. It is none of those things that I mentioned, but it is uncomfortable. But it's why everyone should pursue the truth, because it—

like, for instance, everyone pursued the truth, there would be no left. There would be liberals, there would be conservatives, but there would be— there would be no racists. I mean, just virtually every evil would be— would be gone if everyone pursued truth. The amount of evil on earth— I mean, people would still be jealous and envious, and people would still, you know, cheat on their spouses and And there will be child abuse, right?

Of course.

I mean, there'll be a lot of bad things, but large-scale evil depends on lies.

Also, I sometimes when I talk to people on the left, I say, look, some, like, if you just are pursuing the truth in this situation, you will see the outcome that you want to see, or you will see the argument that you want to see. Allow me to provide an example. I don't know if I'm making sense. But when people talk about systemic racism, that is an issue that I know a lot about and care a lot about because that was the, if you will, awakening issue that I realized, oh my God, I am not a liberal because it was Black Lives Matter, the police were being lied about, everything was being lied about. So people say, well, you know, America is systemically racist. And I say, if you look at the truth, you're actually right that America is systemically racist. But it's not police. I mean, in 2019, 12 unarmed Blacks were killed by police. Should that number be zero? Of course that number should be zero.

But we know it can't be zero because a lot of the unarmed people are attacking police.

Right. It's true.

It's true.

Almost all of them are.

But it is. It's 20. That's the point that just needs to— 12.

12.

What year?

2019, the year before the Black Lives Matter riots. 12 unarmed Blacks were killed that year by police. Is that widespread evidence of police brutality and systemic racism? Of course not. But all of these individuals were talking about systemic racism. And I go, if you look at the truth, it's there. Not that they want to, I would hope they wouldn't want to see systemic racism, but it's not what you think it is. Look at schools. Tom Sowell writes about the crisis of American education, the teachers unions. It is so hard to fire a teacher. What happens when a teacher misbehaves? They're sent to a rubber room, which is essentially a timeout where they do paperwork or whatever for 2, 3 years. And then they're funneled back into these public schools. Where are they funneled? Do you think they're in Wellesley, Massachusetts, or in Brentwood, California, or in, you know, an affluent neighborhood of Dallas, Texas? No, they go to the low-income minority school districts because the teachers unions go, oh, well, those kids aren't going to succeed anyway. They're low-income. They're, you know, and those awful teachers go back into those school districts. That is systemic racism. It is. That is right there, plain and simple. I think it is systemic racism, this narrative that you have to lower standards for Black people and that you have to tell them that they're a victim, that they will never get ahead in their life without a miracle of curing invisible racism. I think that is systemically racist.

Totally, totally right.

It's putting Blacks down. And so that's where when people pursue the truth—

We expect less from you.

Yes.

Why isn't that racist?

It's so racist. It's so racist to, to, to victim, to inculcate this victim mentality into Black people.

I'd like to ask to discourage that. I want to ask suburban white, you know, the, the soccer mom who was, who was, who was on the left. A, can you name one intellectual Black? Yeah. I was conservative. The answer will be zero. By the way, forget woman, any leftist, male or female. But even then, name for me a truly, a person you think is truly deep and bright who's Black on the left. I'm not even sure that they would have an answer to that one. I can, people who say Ibram X. Kendi, I think he's a fool, but he's an example of someone that they might answer. But I'll bet you they don't even know that. They, they're, they are so racist on the left, they probably would be in trouble naming a Black intellectual. One. Yeah, I could name a dozen.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, gaslighting Black people that racism is everywhere in American society, that is, that is racist. That is, that is trying to make individuals discouraged and that's trying to manipulate them to vote a certain way and support certain candidates who frame themselves as the saviors of this supposed racism.

Before we go, it's already time to go. No, but, but we're heading there as life works out. So I want to bounce off something that I just read. United Airlines has now announced that flight attendants you know, where they have their name.

Yeah.

In a little badge with a name will now have, if the flight attendant wants, their preferred pronoun.

I'm not— I mean, I'm not shocked. I see this all the time. People have it in their Instagram bios or in their Twitter bios. It's everywhere. I'm so desensitized to it.

Oh, that's fascinating. I'm not. I'm not desensitized yet.

I'm jaded.

Well, yeah, but it's because you're on social media more than I am.

Well, also, I just graduated from college. That's right around the classroom. And you say you do? Yeah. You put it on your card.

You realize the speed with which the left takes over society? Do you realize that in 2019? I know, you know, I know. And I've said this many times. It's a very powerful story. I said to Bill Maher on his show, You know, the left says men menstruate. And he laughed at me. You could see it went viral. It's on YouTube, millions of views. People should watch it. Dennis Prager, Bill Maher.

20— that was 3 and a half years.

That's right. 3 and a half.

Laughing at you.

He laughed at me. The whole audience laughed at me and the panel laughed at me. And he said, come on, Dennis, who says that? And now if you don't say that, you're a hater. That's the speed with which Any lie can take over a society. How long did it take to teach Germans Jews were their Unglück, their misfortune? When the mass media say something and the schools say something, within months people overwhelmingly will believe it. It is the most frightening thing about the human species. The ease with which they will adopt a lie. It's really, it's really something.

I know. Well, we, you know, I say this a lot that, that, that we in the United States are so privileged. That's another thing. The left talks so much about privilege, privilege, privilege. Wokeism is privilege. Wokeism is spoiled brat syndrome. When you're complaining about, you know, microaggressions, you know that you live in a pretty damn good, society. But we don't know, we've never seen the real consequence of lies. You know, people who live in other parts of the world, they know how destructive a lie can be. We, thank God, in America haven't seen that to the same extent as those in, you know, Eastern Europe have, or those in currently communist China. And so I talked about this with you a few episodes ago, that there's this mentality that's permeated young people that life is a game and you either win or lose. And you, you know, you can do whatever you can essentially to get ahead. If it means, as I said, writing the note to get closer to the dorm, do it. If it means in an interview maybe espousing some political beliefs you don't have in order to get that job, do it. There's, there's a diminishing sense of always abiding by certain principles. And I just think it is so indicative of a privileged society where we can celebrate corruption, where we can celebrate lying, where we can celebrate scheming and gaming. Only a society in which people like congratulate one another for cheating, doing a good job of cheating on an exam, only a society where people can congratulate each other for that can be as prosperous as the United States. Does that make sense? We don't know how bad some of this corruption can get, so we praise each other for it.

Well, this country has much more corruption today than it ever had.

Well, yes, but it's not as immediately felt as it is in, for instance—

Oh, it's getting worse. I have to tell you.

Yeah, but compared to Russia and China, it's not in our everyday lives.

Yes, that's right. You don't feel it. You know, although if you're aware of it, look, I feel it because the 51 ex-intelligence heads of the United States who said that the Biden laptop was probably Russian disinformation—

don't know that.

Yeah, okay, they don't know it because of the corruption of the media.

No, I, I agree with you.

Yes, you're right. Oh, so what you're saying is there is a lot but they don't know it, whereas in other countries there's a lot and they know it.

Yeah, like I was listening to, oh God, what's her name? You interviewed her, the Korean woman. Yes, I forgot her name, but she's everywhere. The North Korean defector. She's amazing. And she was saying that people go into the home in North Korea and if the portrait of Kim Jong-un has a piece of dust on it, they are called insufficiently loyal to the state and they're carted away. Like they literally do inspections of the portrait in the Koreans' homes.

Myeon Wat Park? Myeon?

Oh, yeah.

Park.

Yes, yes, yes. That is felt every day. Lies, corruption, schemey stuff that is felt every day by citizens in other countries. In our country, it's not. We know about the actual corruption because we read about it and it's our job. But it's no, it's not trickling down enough to the everyday lives of people for it to, for them to wake up and realize that it's an issue. Sadly, I think the thing I hope I'm wrong, maybe I'm cynical, Maybe the only thing that will turn our country around is if it gets felt on a day-to-day level.

It's a sobering thought, but, but how else? Communism— my whole life and been to so many communist countries, by the time you feel it, it's too late, right? Well, yeah, they are so entrenched in their power And then, then there won't be a Dennis and Julie podcast to tell them otherwise.

Well, that's a sad thought, to think there wouldn't be a Dennis and Julie podcast.

For many reasons.

For many reasons. It's the highlight of my week.

Wow. See, you know what that means? Me too.

I'm assuming that's a proper language and not some shorthand that you and Sean came up with.

Correct.

I still don't get— I've been thinking about that episode. I still don't get the— that joke.

The god out of Godzilla.

Whatever.

That it— this is okay because Dennis made his career about putting God in everything. That was Sean's response, but that's not the reason. It's just a funny line. This is why men don't rib their wives.

Oh yes, they do not. People, people in the control room know I'm bad at ribbing. I've tried to rib them at times.

Did it work? No, no, it comes natural to men.

So they view it as an insult.

Oh, by the way, I have a final question about trans. So if a man really becomes a woman, does he find things more rapidly?

You think men find things more rapidly?

No, women do.

Oh, women do.

Oh yeah, I would believe that he became a woman if all of a sudden he could find things Well, women find things much more rapidly than men, as you will find out, God willing, when one day you are married. God willing, your husband will say, honey, where is the— and you, you will tell him where it is.

That's so funny. I didn't realize that.

Oh yes, ask any married man.

My mom's always losing things. My dad's always finding them.

Really?

Yeah.

Maybe they're trans.

They're not.

I've met them. Quite male and quite female.

How can people reach us, Dennis? This is— this one is for Prager Memes.

They can reach us through julie-hartman@hartman.com.

You know it. You've said it so many times.

julie@julie-hartman.com.

That's right.

I just wanted to show you that I could mangle it.

And what's my Instagram handle?

It is—

No, I said what is my Instagram handle?

I don't know.

Julie R. Hartman on Instagram and Twitter.

How am I supposed to know?

Because I say it every show.

No, you don't.

Yes, I do. Every single show.

You said at the last show, I will buy you another fountain pen.

Oh, done.

Oh, done. The Instagram handle.

Done. I just got a new fountain pen. I— you are good. You are so wrong on that. Sean, didn't I say it?

The only woman on earth that's happy to get a fountain pen.

I get a fountain pen.

I must say This is a great moment for me.

Shalom. Bye everyone.

Bye.

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