Dennis & Julie: The Tyranny of Marks-ism

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hi everybody, Dennis Prager with Julie Hartman. It's known as Dennis and Julie for that reason. Hi, Jules.

Hey, I'm so happy to be back.

You're happy to be back? Are you happy I'm back?

Yes.

Well, I'm happy that we're back to the podcast. That's very fair. I am too. So it's an interesting thing. We probably won't say anything about the midterm elections.

I know.

Isn't that interesting?

It is, because we don't really go there.

That's right.

I think I would hope that that's refreshing for the viewer because We're just bombarded nowadays by politics.

That's right. And anyway, I have my own talk show. You have your own podcast. And we're liberated.

Yes.

That's the beauty.

That's the word.

And I think that's the appeal of what we do here. So anyway, I want to tell you a little bit, a little bit about Denmark.

Before you do, I'm so sorry. Got to get rid of this fork. We need to liberate our set of the fork.

Did you throw it away?

No, I put it right here. Oh, I don't know why we need a fork on our set, my dear, but again, it's the woman in me.

I'm trying to think of a reason why we would need a fork on the set.

It is such an improvement from what the set looked like 10 minutes ago, so I'm happy.

Didn't we do a video of that?

We did, we actually did. So look at our Instagram @DennisJuliePod. We did a video of what it looked like before we started filming.

Did I, did I not mention— I, I don't want to say it again if I did mention it— what Alison Armstrong—

we talked about this the last show. Yes, because you had rubber bands on the set the last show. Now there's a fork.

Well, what the hell, I'll say it again. Just, she mentioned to me once when she goes into her bedroom and sees her bed, the pillow talks to her and says, fix me.

Totally.

And I realize that anyone who says men and women are basically the same is an idiot. There's no other— there's no other possible adjective.

Yes. Okay, so now the fork's gone.

It's gone.

We can talk.

Exactly, because it's not saying—

it's not screaming out to me.

It's not screaming. That's right. It's right. Inanimate objects don't scream out at me.

Well, you're a healthy person and a man.

Both, yes. So, yes, healthy, that's right. So a few words for those who don't know. I just came back from Denmark. I was there for 5 days. I lectured at the Danish Parliament. Not to the Danish Parliament, I don't want to overstate, but a member of the Danish Parliament secured a beautiful room there for me to lecture. About 150 people came. So you and I discussed this, and I think it's worthy of mentioning publicly. So there were two ways of reacting if you're Dennis Prager. If I, I have no relationship as such with Denmark, obviously, and Here I am in Denmark. I got a free speech prize from the Free Press Society, which is a lovely thing. But what is much more meaningful is at least 150 Danes were there to hear me speak. So on the one hand, I can say, that's really— look at that. What I want most in life, to touch people's lives, is happening. Look at, look at this turnout in Denmark. And on the other hand, of course, I think 150 people.

I know.

And I, I will not live long enough to resolve that tension. PragerU has a billion views a year, and all I think is more. And all I think is, hey, there are 7 billion people on Earth.

I know, I feel it too. It's, it's really difficult to not feel it. But one of the things that I said to Dennis off-air when we were talking about this is, first of all, obviously you have such an immense quantity of people who you've touched. Even though you wish it could be more, we have to acknowledge that it's, it's enormous. But also what's unique about you is that— is the quality component. Because when you do touch someone's life, you transform their whole life. I'm living proof of that. The woman who wrote to you, you called her your Danish Julie. Dennis met this wonderful girl in Denmark. What is she, 25 years old?

30.

Oh, 30. And she wrote this email to Dennis, which Dennis forwarded to me about the way that—

Oh, that was another— that was a woman in America. Oh, that was not the Danish girl.

Oh, I thought that was the Danish girl.

No, I totally understand.

Well, you know what? It actually proves my point. A, the quantity point and the quality point.

Oh, that's interesting.

So there was apparently this girl was American, but she wrote this incredible email about the way that Dennis touched her. And so you don't touch people in one way, you revolutionize their whole lives. And I don't care that it's a compliment, it's true.

I probably have said this, but I want to get rid of this topic because it's sort of like a woman talking about her looks. It's very self-conscious and stuff.

I understand, right?

But that's why I think I'm on Earth, is to touch people's lives for the better. That's what I wrote in my diary in high school. I'm living my diary in high school. So anyway, enough of that. I just want to say about Denmark that it was very— it was a very rewarding thing. And the, the reason that I accepted this— I don't, I don't generally accept awards, uh, it's just not my thing. I'm, I'm grateful that people offer them. But I wanted to go and meet people in Denmark. I just wanted the experience, and I wanted Sue and me to have the experience. And, and indeed, we had a great time together, and we had a great time because we met terrific people. I just have to say this: I knew very early in life how insignificant blood is. Compared to values and love. That's why it was a non-issue for me to adopt a child. It never occurred to me, would I love my adopted like I'd love my biologic? It never occurred to me. I thought it was a stupid question, which of course it turned out to be. But what does this have to do with Denmark? It has a lot to do with it. I met people whose backgrounds are completely different from mine. They grew up in Denmark. They're either Christian or, in any event, none of them were Jews. And I grew up an Orthodox Jew in Brooklyn, New York. It's pretty different from being an unaffiliated Protestant in Denmark. Is that fair to say? Everything is different. I felt so close to the people that I met this past week, so close. Everything is valued, everything. I don't understand. Blood is thicker— what is it? Blood is thicker than water. What is that? What is this? Is that what it is?

Yeah.

What does that even mean? Who really— any— and how many people actually believe that? I remember asking audiences, raise your hand Would you rather, if you were stuck for 6 months on a desert island, how many of you would take a relative and how many of you would take a friend? And by the way, this is no knock on relatives. I have some wonderful beloved relatives. But you choose friends and relatives are given to you.

So I'm pulling out this notebook because yesterday I had this day where I decided to take a day off from work and just journal. Because every single day I'm trying to read and write and, you know, I've made everything professional. I just decided to do some reflection. So I'm pulling this out because I wrote about this and it echoes exactly what you're saying.

Wow. So we're hearing your journal?

Yes. This is how intimate the Dennis and Julie podcast is. I am reading— of course not everything, but I'm going to read to you this part because it's literally exactly what you're saying. Um, Okay, well, forgive me as I find it. There's a lot of stuff here that I wrote about.

Yeah, you did write a lot.

As you can see. Well, it shows you how much I wanted to do it. Okay, so I was writing on this subject of the importance of values and how my vocation in life is to find people who share my values and find those truly rare and unique people who have an elevated understanding of life. And so I wrote this thing and I said, my old self would say, you know, if I were at a wedding or an event, put me next to the most famous and successful person in the room. My new self says, put me next to the realest, most genuine person in the room. If he's a janitor and he's the most real and genuine person, I want to be next to him. The key to life is finding genuine people. And then I write more and I say, I talk about wanting, sometimes I feel like I should act my own age, like I should go to bars or, you know, go out to clubs because I don't do that. I go to Shabbat dinner table with you and other 50, 60, and 70-year-olds. And I was writing about this kind of internal conflict I have. And then I said, why would, and then I realized, no, I should again just try to seek these genuine people instead of going out to a bar. And I wrote, why would I go out to a bar to find more of of the same kind of future human beings that surround us. All those ghosts, those conventional, desperate, empty, enslaved shadows of human beings. Clearly that's a little harsh, but it's true. I've got to somehow balance enjoying my youth while also finding the most genuine people, people like Dennis Prager, people who have unlocked an elevated understanding of life. Ready for this? This is exactly what you're saying. I said, I need to go to church, synagogue, AA meetings, anywhere. I need to find and cherish those people however they come. That's I'm realizing that that's why I love Dennis and why Dennis loves me so much, even though I'm a 23-year-old Christian female and he's a 74-year-old Jewish male. We cherish finding those treasures of people regardless of how they come.

That's right.

Is that not exactly what you just said? A, blood doesn't matter. I mean, of course, in some way it does. Not— you have to honor your family, right?

Right.

Blood does not matter. Age doesn't matter. Race doesn't matter. Religion doesn't— go out, whether it's in Denmark, whether whether it's in LA. And anyway, I didn't mean to make it about me. I know you were just talking about Denmark, and I feel kind of narcissistic pulling out this journal.

It was not narcissistic, and it was beautiful.

It's exactly what you were just saying.

Exactly right. You wrote exactly what I was saying. When you realize what's important, nothing else is important.

Yes, totally.

Just exactly the point. That is why I loathe the left. They make race, gender, all that stuff important.

Mm-hmm.

There, it's not important.

Mm-hmm.

It's just not.

No, it's not. And the other thing that I wrote in the journal, again, I'm not trying to make it about me. I'm, I am trying to bring it back to your experience in Denmark, but this is a really important point. I, I wrote that, you know, our business is a bit difficult. I mean, it's, it's amazing in this way, but it also poses a challenge in this way where our job is to make life understandable to people. And when your job is really about life, it's hard not to professionalize your life. And I have found as I'm preparing to be on air and, you know, again, I'm reading so much and I'm trying so hard to, to be good at this thing, I find that I'm sort of going down a path where I'm professionalizing my life. Every book I read, I highlight obsessively, I underline, I circle the words I don't know, I make a list of the words I don't know. I, type up notes on, on the book. And, you know, if I watch a movie, I can't just enjoy the movie. I'm looking out for things that would be good material in a show. And I'm realizing that I'm kind of, again, professionalizing my life. And that has the result of being kind of deadening and desiccating. And I wrote in this journal, I said, Dennis does the very opposite. Dennis doesn't professionalize his life. He life-izes his profession. When you go to Denmark, yes, you're there for work. Yes, you're there for this job that we both do, is, which is speaking to a lot of people, but you use that professional opportunity to enrich your own life and meet people like the Danish Julie who you were talking to me about, to meet all those other wonderful people that you were just mentioning. And that is a really wonderful part of you and it's a profoundly helpful example to me.

By the way, people should understand, and you should understand, and because we spoke about this privately, so I'll just say it again. I think I said it to you. There's nothing wrong in constantly looking for, gee, what will I say publicly?

True.

It's so part of me that I, I, it's instinctive. Wow, that's a point I'd like to make on my radio show, or that's a point I'd like to write a column about. Because, you know, we're not— and there's nothing wrong with comedians doing this. Comedians play a great role in society, I think, if they're a good comedian. But we're not showmen. I'm not looking for great lines to make a better living and get bigger audiences. I'm looking for important points to touch people's lives with. So it's perfectly legit to do that. You're not quote unquote professionalizing your life, but since you're new to it, that's what it seems, right?

Well, I take it to a bit of a different— like, I think you've hit a really good balance. I'm right now— and by the way, when I'm quote unquote looking for material, as you were just pointing out, it's not that I'm thinking, oh, I should just say this because it will get X amount of views or X amount of likes. I really want to believe in it. I only say things that I believe. But my point is I'm sort of taking it to the next level where I obsess so much about it that I do find my life is being a bit professionalized. For instance, when I read a book, I need to not treat the book like I'm studying for an exam. I need to read it, digest it, you know, obviously talk about it on air. But I am just personally taking it a bit too far. But you're right. The, the beauty of our job is that everything, everything that we do is relevant. Everything could be material. The encounter you have with, you know, someone at the gas station—

when I was raising my kids, it was, it was part of it.

It's incredible.

Yes, exactly. It is incredible. We're— it's a gift from God or nature or life. It is a gift to, to, to do this for a living, folks. Finally, I'm back to cruising with my listeners and viewers. After 2 years of nonsense, of lockdowns, we're going to the gems of Southeastern Europe, May 31st to June 13th, 13 days combined land and cruise on AMA Waterways. We're privately chartering the entire boat for me and my listeners. This cruise was just announced. It's already almost sold out, actually under 10 cabins left. That's it. Book today, 800-345-2483, 800-345-2483, or click on the banner on my website or go to CoastlineTravel.com. Itinerary: pre-cruise in Vienna and Budapest, cruising in Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania. But you haven't been there. Post-cruise in Bucharest included in your trip. 4 private lectures with me and yes, Alan Estrin. Nightly cocktail reception, spacious staterooms, over 80% with balconies. Chef's table experience. Open seating dining options, beverages included. Champagne, select wines, beer, and nightly specialty cocktails. Unique local entertainment, complimentary tours in each port, unlimited free Wi-Fi. Book today, 800-345-2483, or click the banner at my website, or go to coastline-travel.com.

But I'm just telling you, I'm trying to strike a balance, but I think you have done it so beautifully.

I, I can only tell you To the extent that this comments on your comment, I certainly did it in Denmark. I mean, it was such a rich— You do it everywhere. Well, thank you. Good. I think you're right. But I just want to note that the meeting— Sue and I had dinners as often as possible, or meals, with some of the people that we met there. For example, the group, the Free Press Society, who gave me the award, they had Saturday night, they had a dinner at a lovely Italian restaurant in Copenhagen, and the whole board and two other guests were there. And I, by the way, you already know this instinctively because I've seen this with you. I obviously, I had a certain seat at the table, and there were like a dozen people or 15 people at the table. And I said to the group that I was sitting next to in the middle of the meal, I have to go over to speak to other people. And I did. I simply changed my seat to sit with others that I had not been talking to. I was, I was the guest, obviously. And anyway, I did get to speak to everybody. It is so— this is another big, big point I just want to make. It is so wonderful for your life to meet good people. It sounds— oh, that, that's the, the big wind-up was for that pitch. It was like a— for those who know baseball, it's like a changeup.

It sounds simple, but it's— but if you really understand it, it's everything.

It's everything.

Yes.

I made a point on my Happiness Hour, which you'll love. I said loneliness is not assuaged by being with a lot of people. If it were, nobody would be lonely on a New York subway car.

And you found this at Columbia.

You told me, yes, that's correct. I was with a lot of people. Exactly. The number of people has no effect on your loneliness. It's the— it's having kindred spirits, it's having good people, yes, that conquers loneliness. And you know, it so boggles my mind 'Cause I've been doing the Happiness Hour for 25 years, or nearly, and I'd never actually said it that way, but it makes perfect sense when I use the subway car example. The reason people are lonely is not because there's no one in their life. It's because they don't have kindred spirits in their lives.

Well, a subway, I hear what you're saying, but at a subway, you know—

It's an extreme example.

Yes, and people are on their phones, but you could be at a dinner table and you could feel lonely, as I often have.

You could be in a marriage and feel lonely, which was a point that I made.

Yes. Well, no, it really is true, and that's the point that I was making in the journal, that finding good people is everything. And again, it doesn't matter how they come, regardless of where they come from.

Well, that, right, which you're realizing as our love for each other.

That's exactly what it is.

And friendship. Plain, simple, the deepest sense, friendship is as proof as you can get.

Right. And again, this dovetails nicely with what I was saying about how, even though it's kind of a stupid phrase, you life-size your profession. You know, when you got up from that table and sat with other people, you, you have this and I have this. You have a genuine desire to learn from your listeners or from your fans. You don't see yourself as above them. You see yourself as so lucky that you get to reach so many people and bring you know, a vast number of people into your life. And that's something, I mean, growing up in Los Angeles and especially going to the schools that I went to, and I went to very elite private, uh, all girls high school. And then of course I went to Harvard. So I had a lot of exposure to extremely famous people. Some were nice, some were not nice. Actually, most were nice, but many of them treated their fans, interactions with their fans as just that, interactions. Oh, thank you so much for watching my movie. Thank you so much for reading my book. Thank you so much for listening to me. Let's take a selfie. Move on. Juliet from Virginia is gonna be really ticked off because I'm complimenting you a lot, but doesn't matter. You are the first famous person I've seen who really breaks that barrier between themselves and their fans. You don't just make it transactional. It's not just that you take a selfie. And we've talked about this. You talked about that Norwegian guy in the airport, and you have a— you had a whole discussion with him. You really want to get to know them, and you view it as an opportunity to meet someone and maybe find that person that we're talking about, to find those people. And you— that has taught me so much.

Yes, God bless you. That's great. So, uh, first At the risk again, because look folks, Dennis and Julie is about Dennis and Julie and about life. That's what makes it real, right? Okay, just, just, it's not an ego trip, just for those. Anyone who knows me knows that's true, and I could assure you with regard to Julie. But in any event, I, uh, if people who know me only publicly, which is most people obviously, were to be at a dinner party with me, they would be surprised either, A, how little I speak, or how much all I do is ask the people questions.

Yes.

I— the last thing I'm interested in is speaking.

It's true.

So yeah, you've seen this?

Of course. Yes.

So certainly in Denmark, that's all I did was ask. I asked everybody about their lives. I'm truly curious and interested. How could I not be? I think these are fighters. You think it's hard to fight in America? Do you know how hard it's— it's much harder to fight in Europe. We have large numbers of people who are fighting the woke here.

In Europe, the conservative movement in Europe is jealous of us in America.

And I pointed that out and they fully agreed. They don't have talk radio. They don't have PragerU. They don't have Daily Wire. They don't have TPUSA. They don't have American Greatness, the Town Hall, you know, the innumerable wonderful conservative websites and so on. So these people really deserve credit. And I— and what— but, but my point is I wanna—

who—

what makes you tick? So I hear— I— now this gets to the Danish Julie, whom I hope you will meet.

I would love to.

Sue and I have invited her to actually stay at our home. She's never been to America. So she was— so I met her the second day, I guess. She's 30 years old. She's this— she's very bright and, and unbelievably cheerful. I mean, her demeanor is just so winning, and we just both of us fell for her. And I asked her, and she has just our values, which— talk about being lonely. I mean, that's— you're a 30-year-old woman, not married, right? And you're in Denmark, or any European country essentially, especially Scandinavia. And you have these values, that's a tough road to travel on. So she was expressing exactly our way of looking at life, which makes sense because once you understand it, it's the most logical way. But anyway, I then asked her, so are you religious? Because of course religiosity is, is a, is, you know, the Judeo-Christian value system is my underlying system of thinking. So she said something to this effect, and this is really, this is worthy of, of 10 Dennis and Julie episodes. This is so big. So she said, I, I, I really, really want to be religious, but I can't find any. I go to church and it doesn't, doesn't do anything for me. And it was said as a lament, not as a criticism.

Yeah.

And I, I thought, oh God, this is so painful to me because she hasn't gotten the sophisticated approach to, to God and, and Bible that I do.

Everything And it's everything.

It is everything. And so at the risk of however it comes out, I'll just say I, I, I am much more frustrated than, than I celebrate the, the impact that, like, my religious ideas have had, the, the Bible commentary. And I thought, I know for a fact that if she read my volumes of the Rational Bible, she would think differently. But she's— and it's not Dennis that's the subject here. The subject here is that religious people forgot how to explain religion. And I can't— I don't know if I've said— I don't think I said this to you. Maybe not even— I think privately I might have. You know what I do for a living my whole life?

You're a translator.

Close, close. I'm an explainer. That's— I've explained America, I've explained Judaism, I've explained Christianity, ironically, and I'm not a Christian. I've explained Judeo-Christian values, I've explained conservatism, I've explained Americanism.

That's how I defined it a few minutes ago. We make life more understandable for people.

That's right, believe me. Why do you think I see in you My hope.

Thank you.

No, well, no, it's not even— it's, it's just a fact, it's not a compliment. But explainer, that's what I've ended up doing in my life, explaining. So this is a terrific young woman, bright, the right values, aching for, for God in her life, religion in her life. Doesn't know where to turn because nobody's explaining it in a sophisticated way.

Did you give her Genesis of your Torah?

No, I have to send it to you.

You have to?

Yeah. No, I— by the way, of the— well, you've read Genesis and Exodus, not Deuteronomy. Which of the two would you recommend I give to people?

Genesis. Start—

start—

yes.

Okay.

Well, that's, that's what I did. I know you wrote Exodus first, but I started with Genesis.

Fair enough. The reason I, I think Exodus, because it has the Ten Commandments, and I do so much work on the Ten Commandments.

True, but Bill, just having a good chronological foundation and knowing those early stories first, I think that's important.

All right, that's good to know.

So that's what I— when I send it to my friends, I send Genesis.

But she— I'm debating the reason for my silence. I'm debating whether to say this, but I'll say it. See, Christians and Jews, I know, I really know Christians and Jews. I mean, from the inside, which is pretty rare to know two religions from the inside.

Right.

So, their strengths, this is true for even people, for you, for me, for people, very often your strength is also your weakness.

I say that all of the time.

You do?

I say that all of the time. I was telling my mom that 5 days ago.

In what context?

Oh my gosh. Well, look at Donald Trump. His strength is that he's guileless. He doesn't care. He, you know, he shoots off the hip. And, you know, my strength is my weakness. I care so much. I'm so diligent. I'm— and then I'm neurotic, you know?

I mean, right. It's no one. Another good example is The woman who knows or believes at a very early age she's beautiful. So it's a blessing to be beautiful, but it's a curse if you rely on it.

Yes.

Then you don't know why men want you, and then you get hurt by men. You don't develop other possibilities in your life, and one day you won't be as beautiful as you are now.

Right.

It's just— look, I remember— you'll get a kick out of this. You will really get it. This— in 2008, the amount of concentrated time people could spend on a task to do a task without becoming distracted was 12 seconds. 5 years later, it was 8 seconds. The digital age is narrowing our attention span. Trouble concentrating or recalling information is frustrating, embarrassing, and certainly kills productivity. Advanced nutrition company Healthy Cell created Focus and Recall to boost your brain power. Unlike other supplements that don't work, Focus Recall is not a pill. It's a patent-pending gel that you swallow with ultra-absorption of science-backed ingredients to help you immediately sharpen focus, concentrate longer, and strengthen recall. These physician-formulated gels come in a small gel pack. Tear off the top, shoot it down, or mix it in water. Over 1,000 reviews with an average star rating over 4.5. Prove it works. Supercharge your brain and see the difference. Go to HealthyCell.com. Use limited time code Prager for 20% off your first order. Risk-free. Love it or your money back guaranteed. HealthyCell.com. Code Prager. HealthyCell.com. Dennis Prager. So when I— my first really, really, really close friend was Joseph Telushkin, who still is my friend. We met, we were both 15 in high school. So he took me, of course I visited him at his home very often, and when I first went to his home, his parents, one European-born, one American-born, met me and I, I was not the normal kid that Joseph would bring home from yeshiva. And so I said to Joseph, after a couple of visits to his house, said, so how did your parents react to me? I was so curious. He said, so Dennis, my mother said to me, um, he's very, very charming But is he deep?

You?

Okay, so this— so look, it has stayed with me all these years because I'm pointing out, like the girl who could rely on her beauty, I knew at a very— I'm telling you the story because this is self-revealing. I knew at a very early age I could rely on charm and get away with a lot. I knew it, and I said to myself, Don't you go there, man. You will end up at nothing. It's a blessing to have charm, but hello, you can't rely on that. You better develop every other part of you. So anyway, so back to blessings and curses. I don't— I am good at remembering where this began. Judaism and Christianity. The blessing of Christianity is faith. The blessing of Judaism is is practice, is law, right? But they're also their curses. So what has happened is Judaism relied on observance and Christianity relied on faith, and that was basically it. It's like the girl who relied on her looks and the guy who relied on his charm, and then they got older and older and older and it didn't work as well anymore. The early generations, the observance and the faith things, they were powerful. But over time, if you can't explain more than believe in Jesus, or more than observe the mitzvahs, the laws, you're not going to have a deep religion and you're not going to have many religious people.

Yes. Yep.

And that's what their message has been. Keep the law, believe in Jesus. Have a great day.

It is, I think, one of the greatest tragedies of our time that religion has not been explained well, because I, like you, see, you know, I was once that person. I sometimes I forget that, but a few years ago I knew, luckily, even though I was on the left, I had enough wherewithal to know that there's something greater out there that I'm not tapping into, and I need to do the work to tap into it. Actually, before I found your Bible commentary, I ordered this book. It's called 30 Days to Understanding the Bible. I think it's by Max Anders, and it was a great book, but it was very, um, it was very academic and it was very factual. It was like explaining this, um, the chronology or, you know, the location of where the Bible was written and all. So it was a good introduction, but thank God then I found your commentary because it really It makes it relevant. It makes it relevant.

Relevant is the key word.

But I have to tell you, it pains me too, because I have many friends, dear, dear friends who you've met in my life who are secular. And I love them because they're not like the other lefties who just completely disparage religion. They, they, I think like an earlier me, knew that there's something to it, but they again, like the earlier me, haven't found the right way to have it explained to them. And it's such a tragedy because I say to them sometimes, I go— and by the way, a lot of them, I've given them the Rational Bible and they haven't read it.

Of course not.

And I've asked why, and they'll go, oh, I'm too busy. I think there's a part of them that's afraid to read it. I think there's a part of them that thinks that it won't be helpful to them because they've been so They've never found religion to be helpful to them. And I say to these friends, I go, I promise you, I know you well enough. And I also remember my old experience. I literally say, read the first 10 pages as a favor to me. Read the first 10 pages. It is such a tragedy because there are so many people who have the potential, who are fertile soil to let this stuff grow in. And they've been— I'm sorry to say it, especially in this, with the following term— they've been screwed over. They've been screwed over by religious establishments, and they've been screwed over by academic establishments, by the anti-religious establishment, and by the religious establishment.

I know, I agree. I was just adding a different word for the other side, right? Of course they were.

My life— I know I've said this ad nauseam, but I have to say it again, and I was journaling about it. What didn't I journal about yesterday? So I just was—

How often do you journal?

That's the thing. I rarely journal because I get frustrated writing because there's so much I want to get out and I feel like my hand can't keep up with my brain. But I just told myself yesterday, I'm going to allow myself to slow down.

By the way, you need to take pictures of everything you wrote so this may get destroyed in a fire or lost.

True.

You know, Alan Estrin has written a page a day all of his life?

You know, he— learning that fact, I think I learned that about a month ago, that inspired what I did yesterday. I've kept that in the back of my mind. He does it every day and he keeps it to a page. Yeah, that's unbelievable.

It is unbelievable.

I don't know if I have the patience.

Well, he's the most disciplined human being I know.

He's unbelievable.

He makes me look like a homeless drunkard.

Oh my gosh, see, this is your— this is your equivalent of A beautiful woman being told she's beautiful and thinks she's not.

That's funny.

That is real. Oh yeah. So you do a 3-hour talk show. You've written what, like 11 books? You just went to Denmark. You often, after your 3-hour talk shows, do either Dennis or Julie or another podcast, and then you write columns and you speak and then you do your Minion. But yeah, you're a whatever you just said, a lazy drunkard. Got it. That makes sense. Dennis Prager.

That is funny.

Well, can you see what I'm saying?

So I got a new great subject on them. Okay, based on exactly what happened.

Yeah.

So I debate this. So my father told me regularly I was lazy. Okay, it doesn't matter. I think he was right, by the way. Doesn't matter what you're told by a parent or an older sibling sticks with you.

It does.

It just sticks, good or bad. So I debate, and I don't have an answer: did my father do me a service or disservice? Because it— I can make such a powerful argument that he did a service for me Because I have, because I think of myself as lazy because of what he said, I have battled not to be lazy all of my life. And that has been a blessing in terms of what I've accomplished. What if my father had said to me when I was in 7th grade, boy, you know, one thing one cannot say about you is you're lazy. You are one hardworking kid. Which would have been a lie. I wasn't a hardworking kid at all. But it's a very tough question, the question of what should parents say to their child. Because you see, this is really such a— this is a perfect example of what we do, that just go from one huge thing to another huge thing. I know this is really huge, and this has preoccupied me more now than in the past. Maybe it's not possible to raise a child to be happy all the time and become a good, productive human being. Maybe it's just not possible. If you're seeking to make your child happy all the time, you might be ruining them.

Yes. You know, I feel like a broken record because I feel like everything that you say, I say, I, I was just thinking about this. All right. But it's just, it's true. I, I don't know why I'm certainly not thinking about having children at this point in my life, but, but for some reason, maybe it's because I'm, you know, I just turned 23 and I graduated from college and I'm making that leap from quote unquote the childhood years to adulthood. And I'm reflecting on my upbringing. And I'm thinking about, you know, when I'm a parent, what will I do differently? And what will I try to emulate with what my, how my parents raised me? By the way, I would want to emulate, you know, 95% of it because I, you know, I have wonderful parents. But I was thinking, then I had this debate with myself, which, which is exactly what you just raised. But if I'm too good of a parent, that actually may cripple them. Because, I mean, my parents were and are excellent parents, but certainly growing up there was a huge, huge, huge problem in our household, which was my sister Gina. And it was just, it was constant.

Or just people who are severely autistic.

Who's severely autistic.

Not even minimally autistic.

Yes, like extremely, almost completely nonverbal. Has lived, lived in our home until I was 8 years old. She was physically abusive to me. She had to leave our house, excuse me, was— went to a residential facility in Massachusetts for a few years, then came back to Los Angeles and bounced around from group home to group home where she had horrible, negligent, abusive care. And my heroic parents, every single day of their lives, I witnessed them— literally, our dining room table would be peppered with legal documents and binders, and they just gave their whole lives to this child. And That had a profound impact on me.

What, watching them take care of her?

Yes. Watching the way— I mean, watching especially my mom, because, you know, my dad would go out and make a living and my mom was really the one bearing a lot of this burden. Not that my dad didn't help, but he had to, he had to go make money. But my mom, I just saw how sad she was. And how she— I mean, my mom is the most valiant, incredible, disciplined, devoted person I know. But I mean, she went through hell every day.

She went through— And you're raising this because—

I'm raising this because— don't worry, I'm not using this as a therapy session. I'm raising this because that really, I think, in some ways, that wasn't a perfect childhood. You know, but that really benefited me in a lot of ways because—

Right. You're bouncing off my, my thing. Yeah.

That benefited me in so many ways because I, like, I understand the tragic nature of life. I've learned how to try to balance my own happiness with making my parents happy or my sister happy. It taught me a lot. And my point is, I was reflecting on my own childhood and the bad parts I think were good for me. And so when I was thinking about when I'm a parent, if I'm too perfect of a parent, I may cripple my child.

There's another reason. No, no, there's another reason you might. Let's say you're a perfect parent. Your kid will then grow up with another problem.

Yes.

How can I measure up to my parents?

Well, exactly.

So that's what I'm saying. There is no perfect answer to raising children. So there's a— well, there is a perfect answer, ironically. Because there's no perfect answer, here's the perfect answer: do what is right. End of issue.

Yes.

You can't— there are two big things you must avoid. You cannot try to make them happy. You can't make them happy. Only humans can make themselves happy.

Right.

It doesn't matter what age you are. Maybe at 2, But, but okay, we don't stay 2 very long. Well, that's not true. So a lot of people are staying 2. But anyway, and the, the— so, so one is— well, what was my point? This is really important. When I made that throwaway line about 2 years, many people still do. I lost track of this. This is, this is 2. Oh yes, the other, and it's really important. You can't aim to be loved. Yeah, this, this is the tragedy of, of America of the last half century. Parents wanted to be loved by their children at all times. Now, everybody, every parent wants to be loved by their children. That's— but that's not here or there. What's here or there is, is that do you act in a way that you think will elicit love, right? Then you will screw your child.

Oh, have I seen this time and time and time again in these— and again, the, the neighborhoods and the, uh, the schools that I grew up in, just parents who would— who were so desperate to be their children's best friends, right? And to— and It was, it just, it was inappropriate. You're supposed to parent your child. You're not supposed to become their best friends. And it, and I, I really could see how much it crippled the children.

I have another interesting thing that all of this— this is also brand new, by the way, just occurred to me— what is the relationship between that and a really happy marriage? Here's a thought.

That meaning the friendship?

Yes.

With your— oh, that's, that's interesting.

No kidding, it just hit me. So listen to, listen to what I'm asking.

Yeah.

So are, are husband and wife who are deeply in love and with each other, are they more or less likely to helicopter their parent— their child?

Less likely, I think.

Oh, okay.

Yes.

Well, if that's the case, then that's, that's a big deal.

Yes.

Maybe this preoccupation with the child is the substitute. Yes, is a function. Yep.

Oh, totally.

That's why single mothers are the most guilty of spoiling their children.

Is that true?

Oh, oh, it's, it's not. It's also true about single fathers, by the way, who see them infrequently, and so all they want to do is give them a great time at Disneyland instead of being their father.

Yep.

But it's— but more women have, uh, custody of children or more time with them than, than single men do.

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So it's well known that they're likely to be spoiled kids, kids after divorce.

So it's a supplement.

I, I want If I don't have love from a man, at least I'll have love from my child.

Yes.

And if I don't have companionship with my man, at least I'll have companionship with my child. Oh, that's exactly correct.

Yes.

See, see, here, here's how I look at life. I— so again, this is somewhat of a new thought, or at least new, a new term. It is a delicate art life. And it's very hard to be a great artist. Or, or forgive me, I, because I have another way. This, this has occurred to me in the last few years. The human being is an extremely finely tuned Maserati. When the Maserati works or some other super expensive car, it is a sight to behold. It is a marvel of human engineering. But if it doesn't work or not driven properly, it, it, it's obviously awful. And we're infinitely more complex than the most complex car, right? So to get it right is rough, is just really difficult. But most people aren't trying to get it right.

Yes, yes, absolutely. And they're, they're not aware that, that they're not even aware that that is the goal that they should have.

That's right. That's well said.

That's one of the things, and I know I've said this many times and over the past few weeks, but it's something that I have— it's probably the biggest lesson that I've taken away from, from meeting you and becoming conservative and this whole journey I've been on is what an unbelievable thing that your mind has the power to steer you in the right direction in life, that you can use your mind as a navigator and a tool and a refiner. And like, you know, A few episodes ago, I was talking about how I have this habit of cursing, which I will be very honest with the viewer, I have not been very good about breaking. And everyone—

You have been good about breaking.

Have I?

That's not true.

Oh, good. See, I'm so hard on myself.

I think I haven't been. Oh, there's no comparison.

Oh, good. Okay, good. Well, I was cursing a little bit. I think I cursed once before I met you.

Yeah, but this was in jest here.

We were kidding.

Even I did.

Okay, fair enough. But I was— Again, it may— you know how you were saying a few minutes ago there was a big wind-up and then you feel like whatever you said wasn't worth the one, right? Maybe this is the same thing. But I just, I just had this realization. It is so cool that I have this habit or I have this proclivity, but if I train my—

that's right—

mind to overcome it, I can overcome it. And so what you're saying here with, you know, people don't even see it as a goal to be that great Maserati or elevate themselves. It's a real tragedy because I think there are so many of us, you know, in my journal I mentioned ghosts. There are so many people walking around who just, I don't even know if, again, this is maybe we'll get into the realm of being too touchy-feely or too trying to be profound, but it's really something that I believe. They don't recognize that they're human beings. They don't recognize what it is to be a human being. They don't know what, like, They would never think my vocation in life is to elevate myself to be the best possible version of a human being I can be. Not just the best possible professional or the best possible even like mother, just to reach my heights intellectually, spiritually, emotionally as a human being. People don't— it doesn't even occur to them.

They did in the past.

I know. So what happened?

I have a partial answer. But I want you— what you know, but I want everybody listening to understand that was the point of education. Character building.

Yes.

How do you pursue the best you, you can be?

It— I know I just said this, but I— it literally doesn't even occur to them that—

no, it doesn't.

It doesn't.

You know, I gave a course, it's still available at the Prager School. Is that, uh, it must be 25 maybe 30 years old, I gave a course at a Jewish seminary in Los Angeles. Is it— I think is 8 or 16 parts. It was, it was quite extensive. How to lead— ready— a better— which is common— how to lead a better life. But that wasn't the full title. How to lead a better and deeper life. And I remember saying to the, to the audience, I salute you. Not many people sign up and pay money, right? They maybe to be happier, maybe to be healthier, maybe to be more successful, but to be deeper, that's, that's to your credit. You're here.

The problem also is that we, we don't have good examples. Any more of deep people. It used to be, of course, that education was character building, but also, and, and I say this ad nauseam, the most powerful lasting thing that you can give to a person is a good example. And nowadays there are few people who I can, I mean, I'm so lucky to have you. I'm so lucky to have great parents and I have an uncle who I think is just a remarkable person. I've, I'm blessed with people in my life who are examples, but I'm lucky. There aren't many out there anymore. And so there's no— again, people don't even— it's like speaking another language when you say being a deeper person. People don't even know what that looks like.

That's right.

They literally— and by the way, I'm so fervently speaking about this because I went through this. I once, again, I had this— it was almost like a little divine understanding that there was something out, like a little inkling that there was a whole vast repository of information and life exploration that I wasn't tapping into. I had that weird feeling when I was little, or when I was younger, I should say. But I still didn't know what that meant. Am I making any sense? I knew there was something deep, but I didn't know what it— and by the way, I'm still figuring it out. But it's really tragic because there are so many people who walk around and we, we are just bowing down on our potential as human beings.

There's a book, you would love it, and you, you would, you would read it in one night. Amusing Ourselves to Death. Have you ever heard of it?

No.

The title is perfect. It was written, I think, in the '70s, maybe the '60s, and Neil Postman—

oh, I've heard of—

really?

Yeah, I feel like I've heard of him.

No, the book is better known than he is. Uh, the, the book title was— it was a very, very big seller. It wouldn't be today. People are amusing themselves to death and they're already dead. But the examples he gives are dated, but it's irrelevant. The points are evergreen. And if you want to be constantly amused, you can't be deep.

Yeah.

That's why I guess I'll make a plug for this, but people watching or listening are already plugged in. Send this to young people in your life. See, the existence of you in it will intrinsically appeal to young people, and then they'll hear me, and then it'll make sense, and then, you know, I'll be fine. But having someone that is— that they know, oh, she's younger than me, for God's sake, so what does she have to say? Just out of curiosity, they might listen, right? But the amusing oneself to death, that was a— I'll give you an example. You may not know this, and I hope you don't because I love telling you things you don't know. I don't remember the number, but you should look it up. The first presidential debate, I believe, was Kennedy-Nixon, 1960. And the presidential debates, they've measured the amount of time each candidate— you know about this?

I do, yes.

So they— so now I was just watching a debate of the senatorial gubernatorial, I don't remember. And the moderator says, so you will have 60 seconds to respond and then you will have 30 seconds to respond to his response.

Well, wait, let's explain for the viewers because what the Kennedy-Nixon thing was.

Go ahead.

Which is that Kennedy spoke for longer and it made more of an impact on people.

Oh, but that's not the point. Oh, no, that's not the point I'm driving at. That is a valid one. No, I'm making this point.

Okay.

The early debates, they spoke for minutes.

Yes.

Not who won. I'm not talking about who won. It's irrelevant, right? That I'm talking about the trivialization, the amusing ourselves to death. You have to be amused at a debate.

Yeah, it has to be sound bites.

Yes, it has to capture your attention. When I heard the guy say, you have 30 seconds to respond, how the hell can you do that? I mean, it's beyond belief. By the way, I know this. I'm on television. I've been on television a lot in my life, so I know, unlike radio where I have 3 hours to develop ideas— all right, take away commercials, 2 hours, okay? I have 2 minutes on TV.

Maybe it's impossible.

Oh no. So what? Oh, I've developed my own methodology. My own methodology is I will, I will, knowing I have maybe a minute, I will say as much intelligent things as I can in 1 minute. So I have no idea if it lasts. I— and it probably doesn't, because they don't want to last. Whether in, in the people's minds it lasts. Okay, well, I hope you're right. But, but it— whether it does or not, that's what I do, right? But my point is, the amusing ourselves to death phenomenon even applies to what theoretically is not amusement, a debate. But a debate is now entertainment.

Yep, it's an excellent point. Well, it's also Instagram now. I mean, you got it, like people— I actually was reading this really fascinating study. I hate saying I was reading a study because we've talked about nowadays if you say you read a study, there are studies that confirm everything under the sun.

Right.

But nevertheless, I was reading a study and it said that people in my generation, Gen Z, listen to a song for no more— I think the average time that they listen to one song is like 32 seconds for a standard like 3.5 or 4-minute song. And they compared that— I have to dig up, I read so much, but I need to dig this up. It's somewhere in one of my million Crazy Julie folders, this study. They compared it to previous generations, and the point was previous generations were closer to listening to the duration of the song than people my age. And every generation it's gone down a bit where people listen only to, you know, half or a quarter of the duration that they used to listen to. And that's exactly what you're saying. We have to click to the next song. We got our little bit of amusement, we're bored.

I got a challenging question. I don't know if she's you could possibly have an answer to it. So you went to the most prestigious college in America, Harvard. So if you had to guess, and it's obviously only a guess, how many of your classmates who just graduated months ago, how many have read a book since graduation? Because they don't have to read for exams.

Probably, probably a quarter, right? Or a tenth.

Okay, so I assume you're right.

Yes.

I went to Columbia.

Yep.

So it's an Ivy League. I'm only mentioning it in context. I remember I actually wrote this up and sent it as an op-ed piece to the New York Times, which of course they never even—

they said adios to that.

Well, yes, but it doesn't—

they saw your name.

I tried. No, no, they didn't know my name from Adam. Them. Oh, oh no, I was—

when— sorry, when was this?

Graduate school.

Oh, you said that.

They didn't know me. The first public— first person in the publishing is William Buckley.

Really?

Yes.

Well, what a person.

Yeah, no kidding. Well, I'll tell you about that in a moment. It's almost— it's actually a funny story. But anyway, I remember noting that it would— I was certain virtually no one was reading anything unless there was an exam on it.

Oh, that was me when I was at my high school. I was about to say the name, but I mean, not that I'm trying to conceal it, but I'm just being cautious here. Uh, for 6 years we had this beautiful library, hundreds, probably thousands of books. I didn't check out one book in my entire 6 years of being at this school. Not one book.

When were you aware of this?

I was aware of it at the time.

And how did it strike you?

I thought it was messed up. I thought this is definitely not the way it should be, but I was just bombarded with schoolwork and I was just reading all my textbooks and that was it. And in fact, I, I don't think I read— this is, this is actually really funny. The first time I read a book for me was when I read your books.

Wow.

I, in college, would— I followed the trajectory that I did in high school. I only read books and stuff for class. You know why? Because I hated reading. It killed it in me. That— why I spend all day reading for school, why for leisure would I read?

That's right.

My— I, I don't want to do that, right?

The purpose of reading was not to learn.

Exactly.

It was to, to get a good grade.

Yes, yes. And I just— it's, it's really sad. But even now, look at what I was just saying, you know, 30 minutes ago, however long ago it was. When I read books now, I'm, I'm insane. I highlight them, I underline them, I start— I like, I turn— I, I professionalize it. I academicize it. Well, no, it's liberating to read a book now, but I'm saying I take my instincts from high school and I bring it even to my leisure reading. I'm saying because I highlight and I underline. Right, yeah, but I, I do that now and I shouldn't touch lives.

That's how I want you to understand it. There's a big difference.

Well, I think this is kind of the—

I always read for that reason. I wanted to understand life better so I could explain it to others better.

You have to understand right now And again, I'm, I'm being very open with the viewers about something I'm going through, which is right now I'm really trying to balance ridding myself of my old habits, like shedding them like a snake sheds its old skin and going into this new realm of absorbing information. And I have to, it's really hard based on the academic upbringing that I had where if you didn't highlight and understand everything in a book, you would fail the exam. So now when I read, I mean, I'm, my roommate, I was reading the Wall Street Journal the other day and I'm highlighting it and she's like, what are you doing? This is a newspaper. And it's so, it's so my academic self coming through.

If it's of any consolation, I had the literal opposite experience.

We're so similar in many ways.

Right, but hold on. But we ended up in the same place. If I didn't underline a book or an article, I didn't think I read it.

Yeah.

So just want you to know that. Okay. Yes. And not— and this is before I had a talk show, right? Before I had a column.

I just—

I needed to know what I read and look back at it before I tell you about Buckley and why I was the opposite of you in high school. I think people should hear what you have to say.

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So I have two things to tell you. My first published works, and why I was the opposite of you in high school. I'll start with the latter. So you only read for school. I read nothing for school.

Yes, yes, we've discussed this. It's amazing.

It is amazing.

And you know, I really admire you. Good for you.

Well, I marched to the beat of a different drummer from my earliest awareness, which is basically, I guess, 9th grade. And I, I had no interest, I had no interest in my grades. And it drove my parents crazy because they thought I was very bright, and here I was wasting it not getting good grades.

But you were smart enough to see that that was not the best way to learn.

That's exactly right. Well, do you know, you'll love this, If I can find this, it would be precious. So your generation, when you wrote a paper— I don't, I don't mean pages, like, did you write like a 2-page thing for on a subject in class, like an English class or something?

Yes, like weekly briefs or something, but we would write way, way longer essays.

No, no, right. So they were called essays. So we, ours were called compositions. Okay, yeah, so I wrote one and it was titled— of course, we didn't, we didn't type them then, we handwrote them. And I— but so I have it somewhere, if I, if I haven't lost it. The Tyranny of Marxism. This is in my sophomore year in high school. Oh wow, Marxism, M-A-R-K-S-I-S-M.

Oh my goodness.

About grades, not about Karl Marx.

Oh my— oh wow, good. Just clicked. Wow.

No, there'd be no reason you would. I had to explain, right?

Wow.

Yeah.

Well, trust me, I know very intimately that it is tyrannical, right?

So here's the— so I—

and the residual effects, as evidenced by me, are tyrannical.

Well, okay, the residual effects are damn good. Okay, you've translated that stuff, you've channeled it into very productive arenas. Yes, but okay, you're a little hard on yourself.

Just a little.

Yeah, well, maybe if I could have that impact on you, to be less hard on yourself, I will have gained.

I have a subject about this. I have a subject about this, but I want to hear your William. I don't even know if we have time to do it today, but it's So which one do you want to do? I want to hear about William F. Buckley, and then I'll bring up the subject.

Okay.

See, you guys, we just— there's so much we want to talk about.

I know, it is amazing. It is. And it's very natural.

It is. Go on.

So I was in graduate school at Columbia at the Russian Institute and Middle East Institute of the School of International Affairs. So I was doing Russian, Arabic, and studying the Middle East and studying communism. Communism. So I spent the summers in communist countries to observe communism. So I wrote to Buckley at National Review. He was the godfather of American conservatism. And I guess I felt to him like young people feel to me, you know, intimidated or very respectful. I mean, I don't expect any response from him. So I just wrote him. I said, and I'm sure it helped, like your thing helped.

Yeah, I'm saying this sounds like a pretty eerie parallel.

Well, it does now that I think of it. So I wrote him a letter. I said, I'm a graduate student at Columbia School of International Affairs, Russian Institute, and how would you like an article about something in communist East Europe? I'm going there for the summer. So he goes, absolutely. He loved cultivating young writers. I was 22 or 23 years old. I was your age, exactly your age. And I was so thrilled. The problem was I had to come up with a subject.

Yeah, I can't—

a little problem, a big problem. It turned out to be. So this is like one of the living jokes of my life, and I pray I still have the article. I wrote a piece, so it must have been 1974, I guess. No, '73. And I, I, I went among— I went to all of the communist East European countries except Albania. You were not allowed in Albania.

Why?

Because it was affiliated with Mao rather than, rather than the Soviet Soviets. Yeah, Albania was, it was pro-China and all the others were pro-Russia, pro— so anyway, pro-Soviet Union. So, uh, I wrote a piece titled 'Will Gierek Survive?' Gierek was the Polish communist leader at that era, and I said, you know, speaking of Poles here, and it really seems like he's he's not popular, and his days as Secretary General of the Communist Party and President of the government are clearly numbered. That was published. Gyerik survived 10 years.

Oh.

Will Gyerik survive? How many leaders survive 10 years?

Wow.

Yeah, I really blew that. My first article is the single most incorrect article that I ever wrote.

You know, life has a weird way of kind of giving you those funny moments.

Oh, well, I, I, of course, I didn't know it was funny till years later, but now, yes, yeah, it, it was a very reasonable article anyway. Yes.

Well, I mean, kudos to Buckley for—

Totally kudos. I have very great will toward him, and I finally met him personally.

Oh, really?

I, yeah, brought him out to LA when I was head of this Jewish Institute, and I had some of the biggest names in the world. Yitzhak Rabin came. I mean, it was much easier to get big names in those days. I don't know why. And to come out, and I went to dinner with Buckley, and he was just so gracious, and I thought, look at this, you know, I'm 29 years old and he treats me so respectfully.

Confirms my hypothesis that the conservative conservatives are the nicest people.

Oh, well, he would've confirmed that.

Every conservative public figure and non-public figure I've met.

That's correct.

It's been nothing. But not to say, I'm sure there are some blankety-blanks out there.

Yes, but we know we have to work on ourselves. Yes. That's part of conservatism.

And we also know that, especially now, we know it's a, it's a precious cohort and we really have to support one another.

That's correct. So give us a preview of what you want to talk about.

Yes, I'm wondering how much time do we— how much do we have?

5 minutes. Oh, he said 10, I said 5. Who are you gonna listen to? Sean?

I'm gonna call it at 7 and a half.

Oh, that was very sweet. I was sure you'd say Sean.

That's true. I've got a soft spot for my— what did I call you earlier? My personal leprechaun. Yeah, my PL.

Right.

So it was, of course, of course I'm forgetting, but it was in response to something that you raised before the Buckley story. And maybe it was about, you know, in this general theme of how to make your life better or something. I wish I remembered what you said, but I have been thinking about this idea that we are fallen people. As you talked about in your debate with the rabbi, people are basically not good. And I have kind of realized that, and this is because I'm a perfectionist, I don't allow that, as I think Jordan would say, dark side. I don't acknowledge that I have that dark side. If I have a negative thought about someone, or if I make a mistake, I will relentlessly beat myself up over it. And one of the things that Jordan Peterson has sort of alerted me to is, you know, you need to be aware and comfortable with your dark side. It doesn't mean that you, you know, should give into it and you should use it as an excuse for wicked behavior, but you need to know that it's there and you need to accept it about yourself in order to be a happy and even though it seems paradoxical, to be a better person. And so, I don't know, I just thought that was an interesting thing to raise because I'm sort of struggling with, you know, like, let's say I'm really angry at someone and I'm having some angry, bad thoughts about them. Should I allow myself to have those bad thoughts? Should I recognize that those bad thoughts are bad thoughts? I mean, obviously, I shouldn't act on them. But I guess to what extent Should we reconcile with our fallen nature?

I, I reconcile with my fallen nature 100%.

But isn't reconciling it, as, as we're saying here, isn't that kind of endorsing it?

Or no, because as you said, I don't act on it.

So this is what's—

I think that's why I have inner peace and self-control.

Well, this is a—

this is self-control gives me inner peace, right? But, but that I have dark thoughts doesn't bother me in the least.

Okay, it really bothers me.

I know. Well, partially because you were Christian and I was raised Jewish.

So I want to ask ask you, where in the Bible do you get the idea that God does not punish our bad thoughts? He only punishes— we know he punishes bad actions, but what about thoughts?

Well, the question is really on, on the prosecutor. You're the one making the charge that we're— or the assertion that we're judged on thought. So I'd like to know where you have that from. In the Old New Testament, which is my testament.

Oh, I, I don't know where it is.

I'm just saying culture. I don't know where it is either.

Yeah.

No, I think it, I think it is more in the New Testament. I mean, the very— Jesus says if you look, a man looks on another woman with lust, he's committed adultery with his heart. We don't have that in the Old Testament. You can't covet your neighbor's wife. That, that is covet, as I explained in my Ten Commandments explanation. Covet does not mean lust. There is a word for lust, and it's not the word.

So you're totally comfortable essentially having a dark side as long as you don't act on that?

That's right. And, and I sleep better.

So why— like, what— how, how and why are you comfortable with it? Are you ashamed of yourself when that dark side comes out?

Not in the least.

Interesting.

Yes, it is very— I, I— it's interesting to me that it's interesting to you. Because I don't—

so alien to me.

Exactly.

And I'm realizing it, you know, I'm realizing that it's kind of fueling perfectionism in a way that's maybe not helpful. And so, but it's, but it's literally a foreign idea to me that you wouldn't be deeply ashamed of your bad thoughts.

I am not deeply or superficially ashamed of my bad thoughts.

I know I've said— I know this is kind of like going around in a circle, but why?

Because what matters is behavior. I, I am adamant about that. I mean, that's what ethical monotheism is. What are your ethics? God wants you to behave in a certain way. The, the notion that my thoughts are what matter— anyway, God implanted this nature in me.

True. Well, that's, that's an extremely compelling argument. Yeah, and one that I think—

like the lust one. I made total peace with the fact, and so is my wife, you know, I lust 200 times a day, and so does the average male unless he's dead. The only men who aren't lusting a lot are, are the comatose. So, so, you know, this is really important. This— we should do this. Yeah, we should do a subject, and I, I commend people to my, my course on male sexuality at dennispragerstore.com. I don't make big money on this, is nothing, but I know how much it affected my brilliant— and you know she's brilliant— my brilliant wife before we married. And it, it has made for such a happier marriage because she understands male sexuality. So it never occurred to me that if I lust— what does lust mean? It means that when a man sees an attractive woman, especially if she exposes a fair amount of skin, he has an erotic reaction. That's what it means. That is built into me. God made it. I didn't choose it on a list of things before I was born. Gee, I would like to react erotically to countless women in the course of my life. It is built into me like I will react to the smell of food if I'm hungry. Asking a man not to have that reaction is like asking a man or a woman, you're very hungry, you smell delicious food, but don't have any desire for it.

Why do you think God implanted that in us? I know it's that—

because, okay, I've— that I've really worked on. Okay, that I have. By the way, let's remember this about why did God make it. Let's remember this for a future, uh, Dennis and Julie My dad was an Orthodox Jew, but he taught me to be very open on sexual matters. He— you now know what the Shabbat table is to Jews. That's where everything gets talked through.

Everything.

Everything.

Yes.

Yes. That was my university, my Shabbat table. He would frequently say, I have— he really loved God, my father. Said, I have one question. Why did you make the male sex drive so strong? That they would always say that. My partial answer is that's what gives us our energy. If you met a man who had a very minimal sex drive, I promise you he would not radiate energy, masculinity, Etc. I'll be totally open, that's me. I have a ton of energy, as you well know, an abnormal amount, and I am a very sexual being. And I keep it in check. I am faithful. I've been married before. I was faithful then because that's the vow I take. If you're not going to be faithful, don't get married. Okay, simple as that. You want to screw around, every man wants to screw around. But if you can't stop yourself from doing it, just don't get married. You can't have both. You can't have the stability of marriage and the sexual gratification of variety. You have one or the other.

Right.

Okay, that's the way life works. I made peace with that. But I'm telling you that I do believe that that drive is a big part of my own energy.

Well, When I asked the question, I— by the way, that was very helpful. I was more so asking it not just with regard to male sexuality, but just with regard to our quote-unquote dark side in general.

Maybe that I don't have an answer to.

I think, well, there are different components to the dark side.

That's correct, but you asked about sex, right? So listen, uh, people say you know, oh, they find it hard to believe in God because of, you know, all the unjust suffering in the world, right? And they're referring to human evil and to natural suffering— earthquakes, cancer, etc. And then the answer which I've always given is, look, human evil you blame on humans. I understand blaming God for cancer and earthquakes. Fine, that's a problem. Okay, I agree. But I, I have come to believe that given the amount of evil and sadism in the human species, the cruelty that has been so widely, uh, exhibited, it's a question vis-à-vis God. Why couldn't you have made a human being like just incapable of enjoying inflicting horrible pain on humans or even animals.

Yeah.

Uh, and now look, I also want to say, when I say I've made peace with my dark side, my dark side is not in that realm. Of course, you know. No, no, no, not even of course. You, you, you can't know my inner being, but I'm just saying my dark side is, uh, is basically in the erotic realm where, where all men's dark side are But the idea that I want to, you know, to abuse a child or torture an animal— if I did have a desire to torture animals or abuse children, I would be plagued by the fact that I had dark thoughts. I think, I think I should have made that clear. I— that, that, thank God, I, I don't have any of that. And, and so, right. I don't have to wrestle with that.

We need to talk more about this next time. Why do we have a dark side? Why are there people who are born with that specific dark— a really, really dark side?

Our mutual friend, Dr. Morrow, that great psychiatrist— and there are very few great psychiatrists— he addresses this.

I should ask him.

Yeah.

We should have him.

So I have asked him, can a man who yearns for prepubescent children sexually, right, can that person be reformed? And he said no.

I mean, that doesn't shock me.

That's very sad. You tell a man like me, and most men are like me. A prepubescent child is not the object of, of any sexual thought, period. It's like you might as well tell me I'm attracted to a lima bean. A prepubescent child is a non-sexual being. I mean, period. Just, just, just like a tree, right? But if, if you find in them some sexual yearning. I pity you, and I mean it. I'm, I'm serious. To be cursed with that desire, that, that's a curse.

This is, this is, this really should be the subject of our next show, because a subject— that's true. We should count how many subjects we go through in, in one. It's, it's incredible.

That's true.

Yes. Well, you can learn about all the subjects if you go to our social media at Dennis Julie Pod on Instagram and Twitter, and Dennis and Julie The podcast on Facebook, and we look forward to seeing you next time when we will talk about every side of life, happy sides, everything.

That is correct.

It's so fun being with you. Thank you very much for tuning in. Thank you so much for always writing to me. I have— I tell Dennis about— I got an email from an 18-year-old freshman at Duke who said that this podcast has influenced her.

You have a moral obligation to send this to every young person.

Yes. Yes, you do. And email me at julie@julie-hartman.com and watch it on YouTube.

Yep.

Bye, everyone.

Bye.

<LYRICS>You got time, you're only man-made, and everybody wants the same.</LYRICS> Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits three ways. One-third chooses the dog, one-third chooses the stranger, and one-third aren't sure.

Why?

Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions. And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality and why Judeo-Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, you are in effect affirming God.

If There Is No God by Dennis Prager, available now at pragerstore.com. That's pragerstore.com.