Dennis & Julie: Thought Police

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

I haven't done that before. This is Dennis and Julie. Shalom. For the gender confused, I'm Dennis and this is Julie. Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. What number is this? You told me a number.

76, right?

You even— you have to admit it. That's a lot. It is hard to believe, in other words.

And we haven't missed one since we launched in March of 2022.

We haven't.

Nope, haven't missed one.

With all our travels.

With all of your travels especially.

Yeah, that's true.

Sometimes it's me, but mostly it's you.

Yes, right, exactly. You and I were on my show. I often invite you for the third hour of my radio show, and a subject that has now transfixed me— does that happen to you? I'll bet it does. All of a sudden, an idea kidnaps you.

Oh yes. Oh, of course.

And then I dissect it to death until I really feel I understand it. So it arose with this woman who wrote this wonderful book. Was it The End of the Woman?

How Smashing the Patriarchy Has Hurt Us All? Hurt Us or something.

Yeah, something to that effect.

Set us back.

And then you and I, after she hung up or after I said goodbye to her, We got into a discussion, and it so has riveted me since that happened, but partially in the past. But, you know, you mull over an idea over time, and then all of a sudden it all comes together. So I asked you a question, and you had to— you had to, as often you do, a terrific answer. Why is being a mom and wife almost a nightmare for many on the left? Barefoot and pregnant is the, is the way they put it down.

A term I learned on this show.

That's right.

Thanks to you.

Well, no, but it is interesting that it is. The term seems to have died, I guess, in your generation. But That— yes, that's, that's what it is. I'm accused of that all the time. Oh, Prager wants women barefoot and pregnant. By the way, I never understood the barefoot part. Do you? Where does the barefoot part come from?

I think it's that you're at home.

You're— so you don't— yeah, I think—

so you don't need to wear shoes. You're cooking and cleaning and chasing children.

As opposed to Prager wants women to go into sales. Or into engineering or—

By the way, if I might, I have a great response to that. Whenever Dennis is accused of dog whistling to racists, Dennis brings up something that I told him, which is that when I worked for Dennis two summers ago, one of the things that I helped him with was going through your mail, going through his mail, switching the pronouns here, going through Dennis's mail 'cause he gets such a huge volume of emails and, you know, I want to flag the most important ones for you. And I said to you, and you repeated on the air, that in all of my hours going through your inbox, I never saw a racist email. That's actually pretty amazing because you're a public figure. Even if you're a public figure on the left, if you're just a public figure, you invite crazy, sometimes, you know, outlandish thinking people. So it's actually kind of remarkable given your stature that you haven't gotten a racist email. You've gotten some crazy emails, but never racist. And I said to you, if you were this bigot who dog-whistled constantly, don't you think that all these people who would be receiving the dog whistles would write to you like, good job on that dog whistle? That's one of the things I brought up. And the second one I want to tell you now, and it has to do with this barefoot and pregnant issue. I got an email once from a hater of you and of me. Saying, you know, you're working with and for this guy who wants to see women in the home and, you know, doesn't think that women have any utility besides being domestic workers. And I wrote back to this guy, if Dennis Prager so badly wants women in the home, why has he done and continues to do so much to elevate my career? Why does he have me?

Did you get an answer?

No, didn't get an answer. Why does he have me guest host his radio show, go on the third hour of his program? He does a podcast with me. You're so overwhelmingly supportive. You know, anytime I need to bounce ideas off of you, if you really thought that was my only utility, why would you go to such great efforts to help me in my public life?

A lot of comments. Yes, a lot of comments. First of all, on the last question I posed to you, I almost never receive a response when I respond to hate mail.

I have found that too with hate mail that I respond to.

Because they have no response.

They're cowards.

Yeah. Your question seems to be legitimate. If that's where I want women, why aren't I at the very least just pushing you to get married and have children? Is there an itsy-bitsy bit difference of how I would treat a man in your capacity? The answer is no. I mean, I'm sorry, do you think I would be?

No, I thought you were asking me.

I was confused.

No, I don't think so.

Of course not.

I mean, you see it. You see the proof. Larry Elder, Carl Jackson. I mean, you've— Yeah, you've really helped, you know, identify people and encourage them.

It doesn't even occur to me, Julie is a female and therefore I won't promote her. I know, and the absurdities of it.

And by the way, this is a, this is a little off topic, but welcome to Dennis and Julie. And I think it's interesting, there was this people in college, I remember would ridicule and lampoon this idea that you— that when, you know, when people say, I'm not racist, I have Black friends.

Yeah.

A lot of leftists would ridicule that like, oh my gosh, you know, white people or conservatives, the way that they absolve themselves of the charge of racism is to say that they have Black friends and they would laugh at it like it was so absurd. I don't think that's absurd at all. I mean, if you have Black friends, clearly you're not a racist. I don't think that's something to— I never understood why the left thought that was the most ridiculous thing. If you, again, if you're friends with Black people, if you treat Black people well, in your case, if you, you know, you've elevated Larry Elder, Carl Jackson, doesn't that mean something? If you were racist, you wouldn't do any of that. I don't get— I don't get that. So your actions in your own lives don't count.

The definition of racism is non-leftist.

Yes.

That's the— it has nothing to do with race. You're a racist if you're not a leftist.

Well, you have this brilliant line among many where you say that the left cares about your thought and—

That's right.

The left cares about your thought and what positions you claim you have. The right cares about your actions. That's why when you say to, you know, when you present to the left and all this is true, you know, I've, you know, I'm the godfather of a gay couple's child. It, you know, I treat gay people extremely well. Many gay people work at PragerU. I have gay friends, Dave Rubin being one of your closest friends. It means nothing to them because they care again more about thought and public positions than about your behavior.

That's why it's totalitarian. That's the way they are in North Korea. You can't think ill of Kim. That is a crime. People are taught how you think is a crime. When religious people, usually it's Christian, but sometimes it's religious Jews, differ with me on my preoccupation with behavior over thought, part of it is, it is totalitarian to measure people's thoughts.

Oh yes. I mean, we're seeing, I was just reading, you know, I'm, I'm really interested in China and I was reading this article that they have cameras on the street and they, you know, they use Apple Watches to track people's heartbeats. And if you have a heartbeat that's a little, that's going a little faster than your, than your usual, they, They use that as grounds to accuse you of having impure thoughts about the regime.

Really?

Yes.

Impure thoughts. Did we ever do thoughts versus actions?

We dabbled in it, I think, a few episodes ago at the end, but we didn't do a— and by the way, I just, I don't want you to forget the genesis of this conversation was the excitement issue. Yeah, so just, just wanted to keep track of—

yeah, we'll get back to that, hopefully, where we started. There's, there's so much already on the table.

I know, I should write it down.

The, uh, I was reacting to something you said and I began with the last— I— oh yes, well, it was about my mail. Yeah, and if I was a racist, why didn't any racist ever write to me? Such a good question. If it's dog whistles, where are all the dogs responding? But as I said, racist means non-leftist.

Yep.

The thought— the— look, we could do the whole hour on the thought. I did an hour with Eric Metaxas, one of the wonderful people of our time and a committed Christian, and to his great credit, because he's Eric Metaxas, he really listened to what I had to say. And he said it was very thought-provoking to him. It is doctrinal to most Christians that thoughts can be sins, and I respect their view, and I understand where it comes from. And my answer, if it leads to sinful behavior, it's a sin. But if it doesn't lead to sinful behavior, then I don't think it's a sin. And they differ, they— and I respect it. And by the way, believe it or not, I always say maybe they're right. I often say this about people I differ with, maybe they're right. It's a very big help if people do that. My view is that leaving the mind more or less alone and just controlling your behavior is more likely to produce goodness, which is what I'm preoccupied with, than monitoring your mind. So yes, well See, if I know I can't do X, even if I think X, the odds are I won't do X. So they'll say, ah, but if you didn't think it in the first place, you certainly wouldn't do it. That's the response. But it's funny, I I ask a lot of questions about that. For example, if bad thoughts are bad, are good thoughts good? But nobody makes that case.

That's—

because the amount of evil that's come from good intentions is gigantic. And all the good people who don't do good, they think about it but they don't do it. Does that— so forgive me— does that count?

Powerful what you're saying.

Yes. If bad thoughts without bad action counts, then why don't good thoughts without good action count?

This is so quintessentially you, this, this way of thinking. I'm pointing that out because I endeavor to have as clear and robust a mind as yours. So I sometimes surveil almost your ways of thinking and you really do consider everything. That is an exceptionally well-argued point. Yes. Should you get credit for every good thought that you have? I bet a lot of Christians would say no, you only get credit if you, you know, if I'm thinking I would love, oh God, wouldn't it be nice if I built some homes for some needy families or went and volunteered at a soup kitchen, or, oh, I feel so bad for those families. Oh, I wish them all the best. Does that count? Or does it count if only if I go and walk the walk? Really, really. That's very, very, very powerful.

If you don't get credit for good thoughts that are unrealized, why do you get blamed for bad thoughts that are unrealized?

Yes. Yes. And Also, if you just look at this issue from an outcome point of view, I think it really backfires if you police thoughts too much. I think it actually makes people more likely to do the bad or evil thing that they're—

Well, that's a very interesting question.

If they're made to feel so awful.

I am agnostic on that one. I don't know the answer. But a case can be made for it, that I will say. So I think about that. So my view is, if I know I just won't do something, it frees my mind to, to go in its— in all directions. It— I don't— I only police my mind really in one arena. And that is the 10th Commandment, do not covet, which is the only one of thought in the 10 Commandments. And it's the only one of thought, I believe, in the 613 laws of the Torah. They're all action. And what does covet mean? Do not yearn to steal what belongs to another, his house, his spouse, his donkey, his servant, Hey, by the way, that's my proof it can't be lust. It's not lust. It's not a law against lust. It's a law against coveting, which, by the way, I'm convinced Jesus used the word covet, not lust, which is another— I won't get into that, but it's an important thing for Christians to hear. So I agree. You should say to yourself, I got to get my mind out of this idea that I'm going to take away what belongs to my neighbor. But beyond that.

So why do you think that is the one thought that is, quote unquote, policed in the Torah?

Because the more you think that I want to take away something, the more you're likely to do it. So they'll say the same thing about lust, right?

Or murder or Cheating or whatever.

That's why it's a very complex subject.

So do you think it is true that with regard to wanting to take away something from others, if you think that more, you're more likely to do it and it's not as likely if you think about, for instance, murdering, that you'll be likely to do it? Does that question make sense?

Well, murder, it's so murder really is taking away something that belongs to another. I mean, it's true.

I'm trying to say, do you think that thought, right, the COVID thought above other malignant thoughts is one that you really will be more likely to do if you don't prevent yourself from thinking about it?

I don't know. I've never thought about murdering anybody. I can't answer that. It's an interesting question. Well, are men— here's the— look, here's where the rubber hits the road. Are men who allow themselves lustful feelings in the course of any given day, okay, especially at a beach, okay, let's be very open here. Uh, are they more likely, less likely, or just as likely to come to commit adultery as men who don't allow themselves a lustful thought? I don't know the answer.

I would bet that they are less likely.

Interesting.

I don't know if this is going to make sense, but on a personal note, your your hypothesis or your arguments, I should say, about thoughts versus actions have really helped and liberated me because I used to— I never encountered an argument such as yours that you are allowed to have bad thoughts as long as you don't act on them or you shouldn't feel bad about them. And I guess the proof that I can give that it's better to be okay with your bad thoughts is that I've, I've just seen it in my own life. And this is— I'm bringing up my, my parents and I'm making a note because I know they watch. I have a great relationship with my parents. I love my parents. But I'm 23 years old and you sometimes you clash with your parents and they clash with you. You know, it's, it's natural. And sometimes when I would feel annoyed at my parents or resentful, something that they said or did, I would get very mad at myself and I would go, Julie, you're such a spoiled brat to have that thought. They do so much for you. They've created such a loving home for you. They're so supportive of you. Why are you thinking this? You're awful. And I don't have a— I can't identify what the exact reason is, but I can just tell you the outcome. When I stopped policing my thoughts, when I allowed myself to have those thoughts and I told myself two things can be true at once, you can have a bad thought about your parent and also be extremely grateful to them. For them and to them, I found that I was less likely to be rude with them. I found I actually behaved better because I focused way more on actions. And I told myself, don't police yourself for these bad thoughts. You're sort of like the trade-off for not policing yourself for these bad thoughts is that you behave well. I'll grant you these these thoughts as long as you treat them kindly. And that's what I've done, and I notice I'm less rude, I'm less snippy and snappy, and it's just helped. Gold dealers are a dime a dozen. They're everywhere. What sets these companies apart, and who can you really trust? This is Julie Hartman for Amped Coin and Bullion, Dennis Prager's choice for buying precious metals. When you buy precious metals, it's imperative that you buy from a trustworthy and transparent dealer that protects your best interests. So many companies use gimmicks to take advantage of inexperienced gold and silver buyers. Be cautious of brokers offering free gold and silver, or brokers that want to sell you overpriced collectible coins claiming they appreciate more than gold and silver. What about hidden commissions and huge markups? Nick Grovich and his team at Amped have always had Dennis Prager's back. Nick's been in this industry for over 42 years, and he's established a reputation built on trust, Transparency and fair pricing. If you're interested in buying or selling, call Nick and his team at AMFED Coin and Bullion, 1-800-221-7694, americanfederal.com, americanfederal.com.

I can't thank you enough because I'll just tell you, Alan Estrin, whom I, I brought to God and Religion Dennis Prager, among other people. Thank you. Said the biggest single thing was my dividing between thoughts and actions. It is so liberating. So I had a— I had a— I didn't have as good a relationship in my youth with my parents as I think you did. But you're not the issue in this. I'm just noting this. And all I know is I can face my maker and say, no matter what my feelings or thoughts, I treated them with respect. Because God says honor your father and mother. He doesn't say love your father and mother.

Yes. And love is more— I mean, of course, love is an action. Love is a verb, but love is a feeling.

That's right.

It's a thought.

Yeah, that's right.

I— what you just said is kind of made me think that the operating thing here is self-control.

Yes.

You know, like, you, you can more— you have more power to control your actions than your thoughts. It doesn't mean that you don't have power to control your thoughts, but you, you sometimes really can't. You don't have it. You don't have total free will with regard to your thoughts.

And I don't want to spend the time and effort.

Yes. And you should— and it's—

I never want to work out. Okay, let's—

this is true.

It's a perfect— it's a perfect example.

It is a perfect example.

And I work out 3 times a week with a trainer who, like all trainers, has an element of sadism. So Is it ideal that I wouldn't have those thoughts? Oh, I wish we didn't train today. Why? You see, I like freedom. And one of the greatest limitations on freedom, in my opinion, is on your thought processes. And I am completely prepared and have been pretty successful in controlling my behavior. And I think that part of my joie de vivre— maybe I'm wrong, this is all theory— maybe part of my joy of life is that I let my mind go anywhere.

Yes, it's almost like take the indulgence a little bit. Don't— yes, with your thoughts, you know, like, okay, I'll go there a little bit. And, and if— whether it's lust, whether it's resentment, indulge that a little bit. Satiate the thirst to act on it. Maybe if you think it through— I'm sorry to keep— but just, I just want to get this out. Maybe if you think it through, you satiate some of the thirst to act on it. So actually, it's, it's better to allow those thoughts.

That is true. Well, I was going to say we are like a pressure cooker.

Yes.

You must let the pressure out. And isn't it better to do it in your mind than in your behavior?

Absolutely.

Because I think it can implode inside.

Now, what's interesting, Dennis, is that— and I know this isn't a revelation to you or to me— but we also agree that your thoughts are really important. I mean, you write in your happiness book about gratitude. Yes, you can express gratitude, but gratitude is more—

Right. It's also a feeling.

You can't act on gratitude.

Well, you can, but it doesn't matter.

Yes, you can, you can, but it's much more a feeling. So you are one of the biggest proponents of, and so am I, that your self-talk and your thoughts do inform your behavior and your disposition. So I wanna make that clear to people. It's not that thoughts don't matter. But with regard to bad thoughts, it's inevitable that you're going to have them.

Well, let's take gratitude. So it's a good example. I think you can't be good or happy if you're not grateful. So grateful is a feeling. On the other hand, if you're grateful and never express it, what's the point? And yes. And are you really grateful? Well, how can you be it? And it's, you know, your well is a good— is a fair question. Can I imagine somebody, let's say they're very grateful to somebody who has helped them financially, but they never say thank you? They—

that would be weird.

Okay, say thank you the very moment they happen. But they go on as if nothing happened.

I'm grateful for teachers that I've had in my lives and my lives.

But you didn't send them a thank you note.

I think probably at the time I did. But now that I'm older, I think, wow, that, that person really made an impression on me. I'm grateful for their presence in my life. But I also did thank them at the time.

Well, the gratitude is a good challenge to me because I do believe that if you feel grateful you'll be a better person. You're right, you're— it's a good challenge to me because I, I generally, I still stand with it. Your behavior is more important than your feelings.

Well, I think there's also a difference. Like, you, you want to— you want the good— you want to work on having good thoughts or reorienting your mindset in a more positive way. But our discussion, I think, is a little different. It's inevitable that you're going to have bad thoughts. How do you deal with those?

Right.

And it's different in a way than how you deal with positive thoughts because they're different thoughts.

So it's very complex. But I want people to understand it is complex.

Right. It can't be reduced to an absolute.

Right. Feelings are sinful.

Yes. Feelings are sinful.

Right. Or thoughts are sinful. So when you say bad thoughts, I got to imagine that if somebody is really thinking a lot about murdering people, it's a bad thing.

Right.

Okay. I don't think you or I qualify. When I think bad thoughts, I think kids who resent a parent. You know, did I— I thought I told you the story of the guy who called me?

Yes, the mother to die. Yes, he was caring for his very elderly sick mother, right?

And he was just tired of it.

I think this is really good what you're doing right now. I think we need to, to put— we, we need to specify what bad thoughts are because I don't think the average person, at least I would hope not, thinks about murdering people. Even the worst people that I know, I'm lucky to not know many, but there are 2 or 3 people who I know who are just, you know, went to school with, who are just, I think, despicable human beings. I don't think that they think about murder. So let's talk about what are these bad thoughts.

That's right. It's important.

So the first, the obvious one, especially from a Christian perspective, is Lost, right?

So, so let's talk about that.

Okay. Then we'll go to some others.

Well, what others do you have in mind?

What I said about resenting my parents or family member, even if it's wanting to break the law, not in something as awful as a murder way, but maybe steal from, you know, let's say you're at a department store and the lipstick that you want to buy is $10. And you're like, This is a little lipstick. I don't want to pay $10. Oh, I could just pop it into my purse. That's a bad thought.

That's right.

Wanting to cheat on a test, wanting to lie about something.

Wanting somebody to fail.

Yes, that's a big one. That is probably the biggest bad thought that people have in addition to lust. And we're going to talk about whether lust is a bad thought. A lot, a lot, a lot of people want others to fail. So that's it. Sorry.

Yeah.

Should that be policed by ourselves? By ourselves? I mean, I believe you should make an effort to mitigate that in yourself, but should you? Right. So this is it. I'm glad that we've specified. So you should try to make an effort to mitigate that in yourself. But Should you feel bad for having the thought in the first place?

So if I have that thought, I do try to get rid of it.

Do you ever?

Yeah. Well, I think I do.

I mean, we all do. Of course I do too.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, so this obviously argues against my original point that it's only— I never said only actions, but I still stand by actions are far, far more important than thoughts. That I stand by. I would not argue thoughts are unimportant. I just don't, I just don't emphasize them nearly as much as I do behavior.

So I'll—

so if you don't work to hurt that person's chances of winning, you can just be happy that they fail. You know, what am I going to say?

I don't mean to make this about me, but I actually have a very—

I wanted you to make it about you, actually.

I— well, Thank you. I, I have an experience with this. So I went to an extremely academically rigorous and competitive all-girls high school, 7th through 12th grade. So we have the, and, and, and our entire vocation, everyone at that school and all the parents, I'm just gonna tell you, was, was about getting into college. It's all we cared about. It's all we thought about. We didn't have social lives, if at all. I mean, barely, if at all. And we all wanted to get into college and we knew, we looked around and we knew competition. We were each other's competition for, for admissions. And I remember I was in 8th grade, and your, your transcript starts counting 9th through 12th grade, uh, for, you know, your academic transcript. Colleges, they don't look earlier than 9th grade. And I remember having this conversation with myself over the course of several days/weeks, and I said, Julie— because I'm, I'm competitive I'm ambitious. I wasn't born with this desire to, you know, want to see other people fail. But like any competitive and ambitious person, you hope that you're succeeding. And by design, you sort of hope other people fail, right? Not, you know, not drastically, but I hope I do better. And you get it. So I had these thoughts and I went, Julie, you are going to be utterly miserable for the next 4 years. If you don't figure a way out of this. Because there's gonna be, I mean, you're gonna take tests every day, you're gonna have sports competitions every day, people are gonna get recruited to college early, people are going to, are the children of legacies that these, you know, you're gonna, everywhere you turn, you're gonna be reminded of someone's doing better or something, and your head's going to explode. So I said to myself, what am I going to do to make my life less miserable? And I came up with this paradigm, and my right hand to God, I internalized it then, And I can't say that I've been perfect 100% of the time, but it has guided me through my life and it has made me such a happier, healthier person. I told myself this: even if someone does better than you do, it's your— like, you can't change that. Don't waste your time ruminating about it. You can't change that they got, got, you know, this score or got into this college. It's your life. It's not their life. Don't waste your mental energy focusing on that. And also, I came up with a second paradigm. If that person is a good person and did it, you know, worked really hard and did whatever they did honestly, as were many of my classmates, they were really smart, capable girls. I said, Julie, wish them well. Work to wish them well, because if they did that right, That's a boon for all of us. That's a boon for goodness. If good people do good things in a good way and get rewarded, and get rewarded, that's a good thing for everyone. And so I'm almost done. I know I'm going on and on, but basically thinking, thinking your bad thoughts through and trying to shift them in another direction can really help.

By the way, don't worry about going long.

Okay.

This is a true tangent, but it's— everyone should hear this. The issue in speaking— I do it for a living, I know this subject well— is not how long or short you speak.

Interesting.

It's whether you're interesting. That's what people have to understand. People much rather hear somebody for a half hour who's interesting than 5 minutes who's boring. Okay, just, just want to say you're not boring because— and you're not boring because you have something to say. That, that's what constitutes interesting or boring. So I have a perfect example for what you just said, that I— when I follow sports, so I, I love the playoff season, it's exciting. So as they near the playoffs, let's just say baseball. So there are 4 teams that are qualifying for the last playoff spot. And they all— it still cracks me up because they all say the same thing whenever they have a press conference with the manager of the team. And they'll go, you know, the— and then they'll mention another— the Tigers You know, they're, they're a half game ahead of you with, with 3 games to go. And every manager gives the same answer. We don't pay attention to what they're doing. We only pay attention to what we're doing. That's what you're saying.

Yes.

I mean, I will do my best. I am not preoccupied with whether the other girls in my class—

you can't, you can't even—

like, you'll go nuts.

You'll go nuts. And also let's say you spend hours and hours thinking about it. You can't change it. You can't transport yourself into their body. You can't take their skills and transfer it to you. And I just remember, think, this is why it's important to think things through. 'Cause then when I had the instinct to be envious, I went back to the thing I had thought through and I go, no, don't, don't be envious right now because it's a waste of your energy because you can't change what the other person has.

That's right. No, you got it. That was a— it was a good— it was a good thing. So we were making a list of bad thoughts.

Yes.

That's okay.

But this— but this— I just want to reiterate, this is the biggest one, I think.

Wishing ill further.

So I'm sorry to beat a dead horse here, but it's not dead yet. Should people feel bad for having those thoughts? I think we agree that you should try to mitigate them. But should you feel bad for even having it in the first place? Well, I don't think so.

Even that's complex because I wish ill upon those who deserve it. Yes.

Yeah.

I see. I wish that most candidates of a certain political party lose.

See, this is why I love Dennis and Julie, and I love the format. As great as radio is, we'd have to cut to commercial right now. I love being able to have the space to go on these tangents. That's a really— should you feel bad for wishing people, I mean, of course, failure, who deserve, who ought to fail?

Because if they succeed, you feel it will hurt society or unfairly hurt you.

Or even, well, There are some people who are, again, I mentioned there are 2 or 3 people who I met in my life who I really can say are just awful human beings. If they fail, it won't do anything for society or for me, but I sometimes wish that they would fail because they're such rotten people. I don't wanna see them run the country.

Right, well, it does something for ultimate justice.

Of course, right? In a cosmic sense, it does something. Yeah, in a cosmic sense. But in an immediate sense, it doesn't. So should I feel, Should I, should I work to wish those people well despite their rotten core?

No. Why would you? I mean, you could wish that they turn their lives around, and I do. That's not the issue. You're not asking that. I just want to make that clear. So the most obvious question, when at least when it comes to men, on sinful thoughts. Women are not walking around as sexually preoccupied as men are, and it is impossible.

I have learned—

well, I know that as a woman, but yes, no, no, no, no, no, men are. It is a revelation to women.

It is.

We have a different brain. That is why— one of the many reasons I don't believe in trans. I don't believe you can become the other sex. Because becoming the other sex involves a brain change, not just hormonal changes.

Gosh, that is so— I'm sorry to pause, but that is so true. All the women that I know, I can't think of one that has like a male— I know it sounds stupid to say and obvious, but a male brain. Like, we all, we all get a little bit emotional. We also are very empathetic. A lot of us are very empathetic. There, these patterns don't mean nothing. Of course, these patterns exist for a reason.

They had women. I've said this, but it's worth repeating because it, it was revel— it was as revelatory to me about women as what I have explained to you about men and their sexual brain.

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So they had women sit alone, college students, hours in a room, right? I don't— I, I wish I could find this study on the internet. If somebody knows where it is, I'll— I will call them up with thank— with a thank you. And they had— guys would sit alone, not with each other, alone for hours. And then they asked the men, what did you think about when you were alone for hours in a room? What the women— what'd you think about? The men said sex and sports, and the women— so the men didn't interest me because what are they going to think about? Shakespeare. So the women, I had no idea. I knew it wasn't sex and sports. I knew what women don't think about, but I didn't know what women do think about. And their answer, which was revelatory, and I immediately realized it was accurate, they review conversation.

Totally, totally accurate. All the time. I do it constantly.

And we almost— if a guy does it, it's so rare. I don't— I've never met a man who does that. There may be. There's no such thing as—

you do that. But, but I mean, you've called me and you say, I've been thinking about something we said.

Yes, because—

no, but something I— like a personal issue or, or a conversation that we had about religion or something. Yeah, but, but that's because you're thoughtful and And I care about you. Right.

It's— but—

well, that— well, that's actually not an insignificant point because women— like, I will replay a conversation I had with the cashier at Ralph's.

That's fascinating.

I will.

That is fascinating.

And I'll go, oh gosh, when I, you know, said this, have a good day and it was nighttime. I'm so stupid.

That's precious.

It's true.

So I'll be very, very open in what I'm about to say because it's— because it's a funny line, and I can be funny and open with my wife, as you know. Sometimes I will just— driving in the car, and I will just out of nowhere say to her, you know, Sue, the first thing on my mind is the last on yours.

And it's, it's literally true.

Literally true. Women, women don't know this about men. They— women much more than men. This is the interesting thing, because we think men are dense on micro subjects, but I think men know women a little better than women know men. Because— not because of an advantage of a male brain, But because our brain is so different from yours that you can't imagine how sexually preoccupied it is. You can't because yours isn't. Thank God, by the way. If it were, nothing would be accomplished in this world. Nobody would raise children. They'd be too busy having intercourse. Life wouldn't go on. It's a beautiful— it's not easy. But it's a beautiful balance act between the male and the female. And by the way, a woman wants a man of sexual energy.

Yes.

So I want to make that clear.

And it's— sometimes I try to, knowing that I can't, obviously, but I try to act like I'm God creating the world. And I'll try to think, well, why did he create it this way. And the male sexual urge— and by the way, it's not that women don't want or enjoy sex. Obviously no one is saying that. But you know, men would have it anytime, any, anywhere, any second, with anyone. With anyone. And women— exactly, that is the key. I'm glad that you added that. But think about it from God's perspective. He need— it's of a, a —what is it—natalist purpose, a procreation purpose, to have one sex that's kind of, you know, overwhelming. And you're right, it would not work if it were both. That's right, it would not. And it wouldn't work if one was super and the other was, was, you know, never wanted to have intercourse. So, but, but still, I just want to make the point that, because I've wondered, why did men—why did God sprinkle in more sexual urge to men than women? There's a utilitarian purpose.

I will say, though, my father, who spoke about sexual subjects as openly as he did about anything else, and I got that trait from him. So my father would sit at the Sabbath table, which was particularly odd. He was an Orthodox Jew. So, you know, this was even in non-religious families. He was a rare breed. Being so open about sexual matters at the family table. But he would often say, because he had a very loving relationship with God, much more so than I do. And I don't dislike God, but I don't love him as much as my father did. And he would talk to— my father would talk to God every night when he went to bed. It was part of his— it was life. So he said, Dennis, There's one question I have for God. Why did you make the male sex drive as strong as you did? And any thoughtful man understands my father's question. So while I, I'm totally in agreement with you, I hear you. If, if it was a little less powerful, we'd still have children.

Right. So, but yeah, back to the the reason why this has come up, and that's the bad thoughts. Lust, wanting another woman while you have a woman, is a— again, I, I don't know because I'm not a man, but I'm hearing from you it's a common male thought. Yes. And so the question is, should men feel bad about that? Right. And should women feel bad that their husbands, boyfriends Correct. Have that.

And I think no on both. And that's what gets me in trouble with a lot of people, a lot of women who are not even religious, and a lot of religious men and women who, especially Christians, who have taken Matthew— I think it's 19, but I'm not sure the chapter— uh, you— that whoever lusts after another woman has committed adultery with his heart. The problem is, one problem is he didn't say, he didn't say lust, he said covets. And I agree with him.

So why is it adultery with your heart to want to take away? Take away? Yes, because you're prohibited.

That you— by the way, I just want to make the point, should be obvious, adultery with the heart is not the same as adultery with the penis. Okay, let's be very clear about that. Otherwise, we make religion look silly. Okay? Adultery with the heart is not the same as adultery with the body. Otherwise, everything loses meaning. Is stealing with the heart the same as stealing with a gun at a teller? It's very troubling to me. So, he said covet. Because he was echoing the 10th Commandment. And lust and coveting are not the same. You can covet the guy's car. Nobody wants to have sexual intercourse with a car. Okay, so it's, it's important. The reason that I am not troubled as much as religious people— and it's not just Christians, it's mostly Christians, but there are Orthodox Jews, certainly in right-wing Orthodoxy, who would feel very similarly and speak very similarly, is when you suppress that part of your nature, speaking now to males in particular, that you can't even think it. I think you pay a price. I may be wrong, but that's what I think. And as I said, I love to have a free mind. A man who has an erotic response to women, a married man, we'll talk a married man. And then I want to get to unmarried men because it poses an interesting question. But a married man, he has an erotic response. And I, as I did my proudest video of my 60 videos at PragerU is He Wants You.

Oh, it's a good one.

It's a, it's It's a 5-minute course on men and women, especially on men. The— unless you really believe that almost— unless you really believe that it's almost inevitably going to lead to sin. Creating a world where men cannot think erotic thoughts— I had it when I was 20. I went to Morocco for 2 weeks. Women were all covered up for that very purpose, for that very purpose, not wanting to arouse a man. I didn't feel holier. I didn't feel happier. I didn't feel anything good. I felt—

I, because I monitor me, you probably felt dragged down and less energetic. Yes. Yeah. Interesting.

Also, is there— I'd be very curious, is there less rape in Morocco than in Denmark? That would be very interesting. There's no pornography and you can't see women.

I mean, there's a— we know there's a lot of rape in the Middle East. Yes, a lot, a lot of rape. Right. I mean, this was a big part of ISIS. Oh, oh, yes. And also, I mean, it's, it's not PC to note, but it's important to note that in a place like Iran, it's built into the law that you have an advantage if you're a man raping a woman because a woman needs two male witnesses to corroborate her. Who has that? So there's the legal aspect of that's not disincentivized.

But my, my, my statement is men control your behavior and have a nice day. So that's my, that's my thing.

So let's go from the, from the female perspective because I can tell you, and I know I speak for all women when I say that, you know, would I prefer my boyfriend or husband to not lust after another woman? Of course it doesn't feel good. You can't help but take it personally a little bit.

You can't help until you know male nature.

And you're right, until you know— this is also kind of funny because we're— it's the thought discussion, but you have to understand that Some thoughts are inevitable. And they're uncomfortable. And you may want them to be different. But that doesn't mean that they're bad. And even if they are bad, my idea is like, I can't change it. It's sort of like the girl I envy at my school. I can't change it. I can't change that that's part of male nature. So why am I going to fret about it? Of course, I mean, again, if a guy acts on it, but that's, that's bad. I don't condone that. Or I would go further.

If a guy is with you at a restaurant and he spends half the time looking at the women walking in, he's a schmuck.

He is a schmuck.

End of issue. But that's behavior.

But, but if he notices them and you notice that he notices them and then returns to you, So do you think as a guy, because there could be an argument that as a guy, if you allow the lustful thoughts, then you are inevitably going to be obsessing and thinking so much about other women who is not your own. As I can't speak to it, obviously, as a male who allows those lustful thoughts, and you're also, I mean, you're, I know how much you love your wife and how committed you are to her. It's obvious in the way you speak. It's obvious in your action. It's just, it's, I know it. So is it, is it more likely that you'll not appreciate the woman you have if you allow yourself to think about all the women that you could have?

That's why people have to watch my video, He Wants You. So I have a great scene there. It's, you know, it's all illustrated. It's not with real people. And the guy who was at the beach, because I got the idea for the the course or the video from a, I think, a Daily Mail piece that couples that have vacations, even honeymoons, at a beach resort have more tension.

Oh yes. Isn't that interesting? Oh, that— I did read that once.

Yes. So that, that is what gave me the idea. So my honeymoon's going to be in Antarctica during the winter. Iceland, right? So this is really a very important little point. Women are walking around almost naked. By the way, I'm going to say something that is revelatory to most women. In the male brain, not the male mind, more primitive, in the male brain, the more female skin he sees, the more the brain thinks she wants sex. It means I'm available. That's what it means to, to the male. Not the male mind. Any male who thinks rationally knows it doesn't mean that. But the male brain, which governs the psychological and psychosexual response, that's what it means.

So do you If you obsess about, you know, and you allow yourself to lust after other women, are you less committed and appreciative of the woman you do have?

So that, that's— so I had a sexologist, a sex therapist on my radio show many years ago. It's a very intelligent woman. So she said, this is what ideally couples should do. During the course of the day, the guy is aroused any given number of times, if not aroused, enchanted, I don't care what word you use, and let him take that energy and apply it to his wife, to his woman, to his girlfriend, whatever term you want to use. And that was, I thought, a sober piece of advice. The only other choice is not to go to the beach, which by the way Orthodox Jews don't. They— I have spoken at Orthodox Jewish retreats, and they have mixed hours for some, and they have only male hours and only female hours for those who want to have— to not want to have to confront seeing so much skin. And I don't knock it. I have respect. There are many ways to lead a good life. I'm very open to that fact. There is no perfect answer to this, to the problem of male sexual nature. That's what people have to— the perfect answer is essentially act like a good man. That's the closest to a perfect answer. Not always think like a, like a, like, like a perfect man.

And there's this feedback loop too that we haven't acknowledged. When you act better, you— I think you think better. Yes, that's correct. You— and I know you say, and it's absolutely true, that self-control is, is more important than self-esteem. But But the irony about that, or the fun thing about it, is that when you exercise self-control, you gain self-esteem to continue exercising the self-control. That's right. And so I think it was Aristotle who said that the way that you become the person you want to be is to be that person. I know that sounds obvious, but if you, you know, men who say, I really want to be a husband and father, go get married and have kids. Stop preparing yourself mentally for what you think you want to be. Go, go out and do it. If you want to be courageous, put yourself in positions where you will have to act brave. It's, it's, it's kind of the same thing with, with thoughts and actions. If you want to get rid of your bad thoughts, if you want to do good, behave in a good way, and that will have a feedback loop that you may not expect but will be very beneficial. Don't miss the most inspirational movie of the summer. Briarcliff Entertainment's The Hill, starring Dennis Quaid, in theaters Friday, August 25th. The true life story of professional baseball player Ricky Hill. Growing up poor in small town Texas, young Ricky discovers his extraordinary ability for hitting a baseball. But with leg braces and a degenerative spinal disease, the major leagues were just a dream that could never be. Courageously, he risks it all Defying his father's wish to follow in his footsteps to become a pastor, Ricky tries out for the Major League Scout. Pushing hard to overcome his disability, he goes on to become a baseball phenomenon. Some dreams are unbreakable. The Hill, starring Dennis Quaid, Colin Ford, and Scott Glenn. The true inspirational story about family faith and a baseball miracle. Don't miss The Hill, rated PG, in theaters Friday, August 25th. Get your tickets now.

It's close to inconceivable. It's not inconceivable because almost nothing is. It's close to inconceivable that I would commit adultery.

I can say I believe that.

Yeah, I know.

I'm not bragging. I know, but I'm just telling you. And yet I know my mind is very alive sexually. Do you have to like— again, I commend you right now for being so So open with—

the reason I'm open is to help people. Yes. That's the only reason. People don't want to talk.

Do you have to orient yourself a lot and go, okay, I may, you know, I'm lusting after these other women, I think they're beautiful, etc., but I love my— do you see what I mean? Do you kind of have to coach yourself to—

there, it's so clear that I'm not going to do anything with them.

Well, it's because you understand your nature. You're not in turmoil about your nature. You understand this is part of my, you know, this is my male nature. Okay. Got that right. But yes, look at this prize.

I sort of made peace with it, and so was my wife, who is now a co-conspirator in my male nature, which is so relaxing for a husband where you— most husbands hide their natures from their wives. And that is a very sad thing for me, and it's usually the wife's fault. Because he is afraid of how she will react if he opens up. Well, it's—

yes, it's the wife's fault, but also the man, apropos of your definition of masculinity, needs to not be afraid of his wife.

So I— yeah, I take it back. It's both their faults. That's correct. I really do take it back. It— by wife's fault, I meant his fear of his wife. But, or she may have made it clear. But I know from all these years on the radio with the male-female hour and talking about this, a healthy, mature woman is happy to find out about this. Not in the beginning. When a woman first learns what men's sexual nature is, they want to cry. They want to hide. I don't blame them. I don't blame them at all. But over time, you— when you realize he and his nature are not the same thing.

So what distinguishes— to bring this back to the thoughts, the bad thoughts, um, general discussion— why, why should a man and his spouse, not feel bad when a man has lustful thoughts, but you should feel bad if you wish others to fail, even if you don't act on it. I just want to, on principle, create a distinction. Or want to steal the lipstick from the store.

For whatever reason, Okay, I'll give you— okay, I was going to say I want to finish that thought. So for whatever reason, I do think sex is in a unique category, okay, which we could talk about another time. But there's another reason. It is never right to want others to fail unless they're bad people and if they fail, it helps society. But What about lust? Is it always wrong? I asked this of one of the leading Christian theologians of our time. I won't say his name only because I don't want him to get in— I don't think he'll get in trouble, but he's major, major, and I adore him. We had a dialogue at the seminary where— Christian seminary where he teaches. So we talked about this, and I said, let me ask you something. What if a single man lusts after a single woman? Has he committed adultery with his heart? It's not possible. Two singles cannot commit adultery. So if lust is always wrong, it should be irrelevant the marital status of the two people. The guy's lusting. Lust is not always—

I agree with that. Why? Because I think it's clear that at least the way that, for instance, what is it, the Matthew— yeah, um, a man who commits adultery with his— what was—

he was lusted after a woman has committed adultery with his heart.

Oh well, I thought it had to— I thought implied— I thought it was given in that line that the person was married. That's right, it is.

So I'm asking— it is. So in other words, no, no, no, You asked me, we got to get back. You asked me, what's the difference between wishing others ill as a thought, which Dennis, you don't think people should have, and lust? Okay. And I'm answering, if lust, a lust thought is wrong, it's only wrong if one of the two of you are married.

Right?

I think, well, yeah, but there's no condition under which wishing others ill is noble, is okay.

Forget noble, is okay. I see. Okay. I see. Sometimes. Okay, I got it. So sometimes the lust is permissible. I see. Yes.

And you should lust after your own wife. Hmm.

So, well, sorry to get so technical, but there is— you even said it a few moments ago. There is a condition under which it is permissible to wish others to fail if they deserve it.

That's right. So when is it permissible to commit adultery?

No, to lust.

No, no. Okay, that's not the same thing.

Because it is, because we're focusing on thoughts.

Yes. Okay, so when is lust permissible? Like wishing bad people to fail? When is lust permissible? Give me the— when you're single. Okay, fine.

And I, and I believe, because you've convinced me, I don't— it's not desirable, but I don't think it's awful if you are in a relationship and you lust. I think it's just natural. But putting that aside, lust can be permissible when you're, to your point, when you're single and you want someone, but maybe shouldn't be as permissible when you're married. Say it's the same thing with, with wishing others to fail. It's, it's not okay when you're wishing it on good people, or, but it, but it can be okay, and even actually it might be beneficial Imagine if— I want to finish my thought and then I'll expand. It's permissible when you wish others to fail because they deserve it. And just as lust exercised rightly has a utility, that is getting two single people together, wishing bad people failure has a utility. Imagine if you didn't wish that bad people failed. You wouldn't want to fight evil. You wouldn't. You, you would just be morally neutral with all the rotten things that people do.

So let me ask you a question. Your question is perfectly legitimate, and I don't have a perfect answer. So let me ask you a question. Would you rather be married to a man who had lustful feelings at the beach, who loved you who lusted after you but had lustful feelings on the beach, or a man who wished good people failure?

Oh, I mean, there's no comparison. There's no comparison.

Okay, that's my point. I said sex was different. That's what you're saying.

I hear you. I agree. I'm just trying to figure out Yeah, no, I, I, I hear you.

I, I think it's right that sex is bad for overweight people or, or, uh, or diabetics to eat the desserts, to eat a lot of desserts, let's say a lot of candy, a lot of desserts. Yes. So does it trouble you? I would— I mean, not just asking you, anybody thinking about this, does it trouble you if, if a diabetic lusts after dessert but doesn't eat it? No, right? Of course not. Okay, so, but it would be a bad thing if a diabetic had a lot of desserts. So really bad. It could kill them, and, and the people who love them would, would mourn the premature death of a loved one. So I'm only making the case Again, once again, the distinction between behavior and thought. And I, I, I would compare the, the lusting for dessert with the lusting for a body. They're, they're not identical, but if nothing is done— now, if all a person does, a diabetic, is luxuriate in thoughts about dessert We don't have a healthy human being if all a man does is that. We don't have a healthy man, obviously. But I have to admit that boys are influenced by their fathers, whether they like it or not. My father, to the best of my knowledge, loved and was faithful to my mother for 72, 73 years. That's beyond belief when you think about it. He adored her. He was attracted to her till she died at 89. And she was a good-looking woman, really good-looking woman, even in her 80s. Uh, but he was so open. Look, as I've told, and it drives a lot of people nuts, he got Playboy magazine, not in a brown paper bag. He had a subscription. And that taught me, wow, you could, you could, if you, if you control yourself, this is part of being a man. And of course Playboy in those days was so innocent, right? Wouldn't we all love if our men were looking at Playboy? I agree. Yeah, well, it wasn't even full nude when I was a kid.

Maybe this is what's happened where Playboy, you know, men were made to feel so bad about looking at Playboy, and then now it's spiraled into—

yeah, well, this, the spiraling is, is a real problem, obviously.

Oh God, it is so bad right now. I mean, we could do a whole conversation.

As I've said on many occasions, if all porn disappeared, I would be a happy man. But if all porn disappeared, men would still lust. That's what people need to understand. There's a movie, um, oh God, Something About Mary, I think that's the name, I think. But there's a— it's a pretty famous movie, and the guy is, uh, amusing himself to a bra ad in the Los Angeles Times. And every single male understands that you don't need porn, you just need an image even in your brain of a woman.

I understand what you're saying, but now a lot of guys, they, they do need porn because they train their brains to get so used to this.

This is frightening. It, it's true. I agree with you. Okay, that's correct. But I—

this was really interesting on many levels, but especially this idea that some bad thoughts can actually are not all bad. Lust, wishing others to fail, you know, if it's directed correctly. I'm trying to insert, is that true of other bad thoughts? I don't think it's ever a good thing to wish to steal from a store. That I don't see how that can be turned in a way that's good.

Your family is starving to death. And you're next to a bread store. I mean, but it's— well, true, it doesn't happen.

Well, but that's, that's not— you know, there are some urges within us that even the bad urges might have their utility sometimes.

Yeah, but generally speaking, we know what's a sin, right? What isn't. So I— but I know it's time, time for us to say goodbye, but the This discussion needs to be had. The, the concept of the sinful thought versus the sinful action. My bottom line is that if clergy spent 85% of their time teaching people to control their behavior they would produce much better people than if they spent 85% of their time teaching people to control their thoughts. Oh yes. And that's what I'm interested in— good people, people controlling their behavior. If what I said is true, that's a big challenge to a lot of clergy. How much time do you spend on sinful thought versus sinful behavior? And finally, just for the record, again, I wish all porn disappeared.

Boy, do I second that.

Yep. Life is messy, and I've never yearned therefore for utopia.

And you, to your great credit, you really don't shy away from the, the messy. Even when, you know, I, I made this at great personal price. At great personal price. And I made, uh, for, for those who maybe don't understand, you know, Dennis has— there's been this pornography controversy about some comments Dennis has made about pornography.

It's, it's which really weren't about pornography, right? Ironically.

Anyway, that, that's sort of—

by the way, now that people As you mentioned it, they should see my video with Charlie Kirk on the issue. And Marissa Streit.

And Marissa Streit, yep. But I was at PragerU recently, which we could do a whole episode on PragerU and how utopian it is. Yes, it's close. So utopian. And someone said to me, how's Dennis doing? I said, oh, he's great. You know, he's always great. And you've worked on always, you know, having good temperament. And the guy asking me said, well, you know, I really admire him because he's, you know, he gets so much flack for stuff that he says. And, you know, now there's this pornography controversy. And I said this line, which I wanted to repeat to you, and here I am. I said, well, Dennis does not shy away from the uncomfortable, even sometimes when we may want him to. And they, and the people in the room laughed. But that's you. And I deeply admire that. It's not— I mean, I can tell you just having this preliminary conversation, it is not easy to talk, to even say the words that we say, porn, you know, it's not comfortable. It's not comfortable seeing a snippet of yourself on the internet talking about these very personal, messy issues. But people with good values have a responsibility to talk about these things because so many people with bad values talk about it and create this cultural malaise that we're in. So I just want to say I commend you and I recognize the sacrifice and we are all better off for it because you go there. You understand. But it's hard. Thank you. All right. How can people reach me?

By visiting your home. The wrong answer.

I don't want— I don't want strangers visiting my home. I just—

just for the record, Julie at Julie Hartman. I'm impressed. I truly—

every time I answer, no, I'm impressed. Well, I know your nature, and I know that you have to battle remembering names and emails and websites. You can also follow me at Julie Hartman on Instagram and Twitter, and you can follow Follow Dennis on Instagram. Smile and nod, Dennis. @TheDennisPrager.

Really? Oh my gosh. Every time. What is it? What appears at TheDennisPrager?

What's there? Dennis, I adore you more than anything. I think this is the 5th episode when this has happened, and I will say TheDennisPrager and you will have this reaction. I believe you. Do you genuinely not remember the other times?

I genuinely did not accept. And I'm embarrassed, by the way. I'm not proud of it. Don't be. It's funny. I just— what happens at the Dennis Prager on Instagram?

They take clips from your radio show and they post them on Instagram.

He says I may be the only person on the planet not to visit his own Instagram page.

I love that. I really do. I think that's funny. He's right. So, yes, you can follow Dennis at @TheDennisPrager. Now I'm going to get him on his Instagram page. Yep. We'll work on it. Shalom, everyone. Thank you for being here. Dennis and Julie every Monday on this YouTube channel.

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