Dennis & Julie: Truth Seekers

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hi everybody, Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman, the Dennis and Julie podcast. Before anything, and at the risk of, I don't know, not alienating certainly, at the risk of boring even, which is the one unforgivable sin in any communications aspect of life, I just want to say I really enjoy this.

Oh, it's so much fun.

It's a highlight of the week. It's really something. We both feel that, and it's, it's, I guess it has to be communicated to the people watching or listening.

I think it is. You know, I don't feel, and this is something that I'm sure you have never felt a day of our show, but, but when we started doing Dennis and Julie, I was really nervous when we started doing it out of my dorm room because I, you know, I was thinking, is this going to work? I want to make Dennis proud. You were saying every episode that this was the first show that you've ever done with a co-host, and trust me, that was That was not lost on me how extraordinary that is. And so I was so nervous. And then very quickly, it just was so natural. And now I feel anti-nervous. It's not even that I feel neutral. I feel so calm and relaxed.

That is a term I have never heard. You feel anti-nervous.

It's, again, it's not neutral. I feel, and maybe—

Wait, what is the difference between non-nervous —anti-nervous. I'll tell you. Yeah.

And by the way, I'm not so convinced that this is a good thing, but it's nevertheless the reality. I feel like I can say anything on this show. That's correct. That's what I mean by anti-nervous. I mean, of course, I think in my daily life, like you, I try to think about what I say and make sure that I'm communicating with clarity and with fairness. But really, there's no topic here that is off limits for us. And if a thought comes into my head on this show, I never think, "Mm, you better not say that." So that's terrific. It's going to get me in trouble.

It probably will one day, but that's where you have to let the chips fall where they may. That's exactly right. Okay, so I have a great new topic in my mind. Did you just forget it again? No, no, not at all. Good. Uh, it's really— I'm gonna— if it has a prefatory comment you'll find of interest. When I was in my 20s, which I, I remember my 20s better than my 30s or my 40s. Really? Yes. Oh, I, I, I remember like yesterday. For— there are a whole host of reasons we could talk about another time, but anyway, I came to so many realizations about life in my 20s. I remember thinking, how many are left?

Boy, do I relate. I feel sheepish saying it. I say it to almost everything you say, but it's, it's true. I think about that every day. I go, am I going to reach a limit, right? And then I'm going to stop having realizations.

So it's both good and bad because I think Why didn't I have a new one that I'm going to share now? And I think, why didn't I realize this 30 years ago? This is so obvious. And anyway, it's just, I just wanted to share that. So I, I have said this in the past, but I now understand it much more deeply, literally as of a week. I don't know what prompted it. I've always said this, but I never realized how important it is and what people should do with it. I have a great recommendation to people on how to figure out whether they're telling the truth. This is really something. This is a big deal. So here is the statement: people believe what— and in general, all these things have exceptions— People believe what they want to believe. People do not believe what they do not want to believe. So you heard me on the radio, you gave a great example where somebody said to me that, oh, Americans have more in common than they have that differs between them. That is a perfect example of people believe what they want to believe. That is not true. I have nothing in common with a person who believes men give birth, a person who believes that you are a hater if you don't want 5-year-olds going to drag queen shows, if you think America is systemically racist. And I can go through a gigantic list, okay? I have nothing in common with these people. There is no way you can reconcile it unless I change my mind or they change their mind. Okay, so here I have two things to say about this, and then it's all yours. Number one is people to realize that this is true. Overwhelmingly, people believe what they want to believe. Number two, here is a great— this is really brand new. Literally, I think in the last week it came to me. Everyone should do the following little test to test whether they are truth seekers or not. Ask yourself on any subject— it's got to be on some subject— what do I want to believe? Then ask yourself, do I, do I say it because I want to believe it or because I really believe it. So I have done this test in my life, my whole life. I want to believe there is a God. I know that if there is no God, that life is a farce. There is no ultimate meaning. There is no objective morality. And it is the most tragic thing to have ever been born because for eternity there's no meeting with the loved ones of your life. There's no ultimate justice. There's nothing. It's nothing. It's a bad joke if there is no God. So I want to believe there is a God. Fine. I am honest enough to say I want to believe that. But then I say, do I believe it because I want to believe it? And to the best of my ability, I have said no. And that's why my approach to God is purely through reason. Not through emotion, not through theology. Just so, just are there good reasons to believe in God? Yes or not? And I don't even say there's a proof, just good reasons. So that's my contribution.

Well, that's what you say with, you know, you love, you love God because first you love the Torah, not the other way around. That shows that you first are looking for reason and proof, and then that directs you to your love to God. In other words, it's not just what you want to believe, you, you have evidence for it. I think what you just said about figuring out with almost every issue, what is it that I want to believe? And then what is it that I do believe? Having that distinction in your head is incredibly important. It just shows how in sync we are. It really is so eerie. I have to tell the audience because this morning I was having a discussion with my eye doctor about this very subject, believing in what you want to believe. Allow me to explain. I love my eye doctor. She's this great conservative woman. And so, you know, we talk As she's examining my eyes, we talk about moral issues. And so I haven't seen her in a year. And she, you know, we were sitting down and she was asking me about my lifestyle habits, my medication, my alcohol consumption, my, my exercise routine, etc. And I was sitting there and I noticed myself wanting to hide things from her because I didn't want to appear as irresponsible or undisciplined in her eyes. For instance, she asked me how often do I drink, which by the way, just on a separate note, drinking is bad for you in many ways, but it's apparently— there are a lot of studies coming out that it's bad for your, your vision in addition to your heart. She was saying it's, it's bad for your vision. And so shows you I'm very honest on Dennis and Julie. I drank, I drank a lot in college as I think a lot of people did. But you know, now that I'm out of college, I'll drink maybe 2 or 3 times a week. But I noticed myself wanting to cut, not wanting to tell her because I was a little bit ashamed or embarrassed, even though it wasn't excessive. I wanted to tell her I drink one time a week instead of three, or she was asking me how often I work out and I just, and then it sparked this discussion where I admitted to her that I wanted to hide it. I said, I will be honest with you, I'm a bit, you know, I'm a bit ashamed to admit this. I don't work out as much as I should. I probably drink a little bit more than I, than I should. I, you know, eat bad food more than I should. And it sparked this very interesting discussion where she said a lot of people who come into my office, and when I ask them the same questions, they don't want to tell me. They have the same reaction as you. They don't want to tell me the actual truth of their lifestyle habits because they want to believe that they have a healthier lifestyle than they do, and that if they are having health problems, it is not because of their lifestyle, is because of some external thing. And it made me think, boy, if you can't confide in your doctor, if you in the— in the situation that is there to help you, who's there to help you, that is the most safe arena to tell the truth. You know, they're not— the doctor's not there to judge you. The doctor's there to help you. Even in that arena, if people, myself included, are a little bit embarrassed, it shows you the extent to which people, as you were saying, want to just believe what they want to believe. They don't want to embrace the truth. If people—

did you finish? Because I—

go on and I'll continue. No, no, no, continue.

I know what I want to say.

I just think that this is a problem that doesn't just afflict us politically. It afflicts every part of our lives, our personal part of our— and I know, I know you know that, but—

No, no, no, I know you know that I know it. I'm just saying, oh yeah, to reaffirm the truth of what you're saying, not because it's obvious.

And I view it— again, I succumb to this too— but I view it as a shirking of my personal responsibility, a responsibility to myself, responsibility to my family, responsibility to my country, if I just believe what I want to believe. And I was sitting there in the office this morning, I was going, Julie, you're only harming yourself by telling her that you only drink once a week when you drink 3. Tell her the damn truth so that she can have help you, you know? Or in other words, when you start to realize the harmful effects of your just believing what you want, you're less likely to do it.

Correct. So what I wanted to say that was important, by the way— it's just another example, by the way, as we both know— people should embark on this like today. Make, make a verbal list or even a written list on any subject. What do you want? What do you want to believe, macro or micro? Do you want to believe, for example, everybody wants to believe their kid is wonderful, right?

Is your kid really wonderful? My parents would say yes. No, I'm kidding. My parents did not say— my parents actually wouldn't say yes.

No, they finally said yes later in life, but I didn't do any homework and I didn't go to work and they thought I'd end up a bum. Actually, my mother kept saying JD, which you never heard of. JD to you was Doctor of Jurisprudence. JD in my era was juvenile delinquent. When my mother said you're going to end up a J— Oh, you. Oh my gosh. Oh, thank God. I was really given a resilient spirit. Thank God, because I could have been crushed at home, to be honest. And this is not anti my parents. I thank them for a million things. But they, they thought I was a loser until, until I would say mid-high school. And then they weren't sure. And then all of a sudden, hmm, he's not a loser. Then, wow, he's a real winner. That's how it really went to loser, maybe not a loser. Okay. And then, wow. Okay. In any event, they did say You'll be a JD. So here's an example of every area. I just— it came into my mind about your children. So you should— every parent should ask, what do I want to believe about my child? And then ask, do I believe it because I want to believe it? It should be done in every area. Do you believe America is systemically racist, or do you want to believe it? Do you really believe it? Uh, by the way, I ask this every atheist that I now, uh, have a dialogue with. I ask a question.

I love when you ask atheists.

It's so the right question. So say it.

Dennis asks atheists, do you hope that you are wrong?

Right. Do you hope you're right or wrong? Right. Do you—

in other words, if, if you could have an answer, would you want there to be a God? And it's— that is totally the—

well, that's how I know if they're intellectually honest. Of course. If you don't hope you're wrong as an atheist, you're a fool. I mean, you don't hope, and you're lying to yourself. You don't hope. I said this to a very prominent atheist. He said, I don't know, I'm not sure, what do you mean? I said, well, wait a minute. Do you have a child? Yeah. Do you love your child? Of course. Would you like to see your child after you die and after she dies or not? I said, well, of course. Then you hope there's a God.

You know, it's so interesting you bring that up, and this is a little tangent, but welcome to Dennis and Julie. I bet if I asked— and I'm aware I'm not trying to pick on my peers, I think I bring them up a lot, but it's just the cohort, to use my favorite word. Bingo, by the way, that's one of the bingo things. It's just the cohort that I know the best.

You know, I've never used the word cohort in my life, just for the record. Why? I don't even know what it means. What's a cohort?

Group. You don't know what it means?

What does it mean, my group?

Yes, a group. Or what's wrong with group? Well, what's wrong with cohort?

Because it wasn't used before 5 years ago. That's not true. I'll bet it is.

Oh, I bet, I bet you're wrong.

We're gonna go on Ngrams on Google.

Yes, go on Ngrams and look up cohort.

I bet you that the word is zero prior to 1980.

You said 5 years ago.

I know. So I'm stretching it to 40. I'm sure. I don't disagree with you.

It's probably gone up because of me.

That's good. That was good. Okay, your cohort.

I will just say before we move on, Joe, I love it when people have bizarre eccentricities. That was redundant. All eccentricities are bizarre, but this is one of yours. Your preoccupation with the word cohort. It's a word. It means group. I think it's a particularly eloquent— elegant way to say group.

I feel toward cohort what I feel toward matrix. What do you have—

why is that? Why is there a problem with that word? Do you have a problem with the word conundrum versus problem? Then why? Then why?

Uh, conundrum. One minute. I want to bathe in conundrum.

I know it is. It's— that is a great word.

It is a great word, and it's been used since Shakespeare.

Well, what does it matter? Okay, Mr. Principal here, is your principle that, that conundrum is a better word than cohort because it's been used for longer? Yes. So you just, you're, you're an ageist?

Yes. So I'm not, somewhat, yes, that is correct. Because things prove their, their worth over the ages. Why is some music great? Because it's survived. I feel like I'm witnessing irrational Dennis.

It's my first time I've ever witnessed it. I am gonna, I am gonna fight you on this. There is nothing wrong with the word cohort. Sean, Sean, I get your music analogy, but this is a word.

One moment, one moment. Sean, put your hand on the Bible and swear to tell the truth and the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And if the Bible isn't there, put it on, uh, Robert Swami's book. Okay, so, uh, are you— do you swear? Okay, his hand is up. You can put your hand down. When was the last time you used the word cohort in conversation? Never. Thank you. Never. Okay, thank you. Well, that's it. Okay, so Sean is way younger than me, not as young as you.

But even if it's true, what is so bad about the word?

I didn't say it was bad. You have a guilty conscience over cohort. Did I ever say to you it was wrong?

No, but you made some thoughts about it.

No. Did you hear that, folks? She said no. Okay, continue. Oh, there it is. There's the cohort chart.

Oh, you said it was zero. You said it was zero. No, that's 1,900.

I'm right at 19— no, at 1920 it is virtually zero. And now look, folks, virtually zero is everything.

Please look at that.

Look at that. It's like unconditional love. In the '60s, it became a mountain from nothing.

So again, before we move on, because I'm sure the listeners are riveted by this, I still don't understand. I know you're going to harp on me for saying wrong. What is your aversion to the word? Why do you make a fuss about it whenever I use it. I don't understand what this is.

I have not made it. You're living with a guilty conscience.

We're going to play back the tape. I think I did bring it up this time. You did, yes. But you give me—

But you're reading my mind. Oh, so I'm right.

You are right. So again, what is wrong with it?

Well, first of all, since rationally— hello— rationally, I know there's nothing wrong with it. Okay, my emotional response I control, but I have to say I won't use the term.

Okay, well, I'm going to use it many times throughout this broadcast just out of my love for the word cohort.

No, out of your desire to annoy me. That is not true. Out of love of cohort. Go ahead, moving on.

Yes, I was just saying— translate into which language? Oh, is that yours? That's, that's me. Oopsies.

Well, that's because I have— they're all, they're all listening. No, what I have is your phone set to whenever you use cohort to somehow annoy you.

Okay, okay. So I was saying, my iPhone—

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That was the punishment room. But I don't know which one of us was put in. Definitely Dennis. Julie for the phone.

That is correct. Oh, like his phone doesn't ring in buzz.

Including it doesn't talk to Me, it was a very short vibration.

I listen to you almost every day on the radio and almost every day you hear do, do, do, do do do do do. And then you go and you shut it off. Okay, we're tallying it. It's more you. I know you're witnessing. Okay, we're moving on. So I'm not trying to pick up— pick on exclusively people my age. I know I bring them up a lot on the show, but it is the group that I know the best. So what you just said about an atheist, when you ask atheists if they, um, if they hope that they're wrong, right? And you said that sometimes they sort of go, I don't know, and they go, they go back and forth. That is a response that I see a lot among people my age, where they can't— like, I would think that it would be so obvious that everyone would want a God that is loving and just and judging of those who are evil and reward those who are good. But a lot of— I mean, if I ask that same question to, by the way, a really nice, smart, good-natured person my age, I bet a lot of them would answer the way that you just described the atheist answered. In other words, "I don't know. It doesn't really matter to me." Why?

They've never been well-versed in the arguments for God. By the way, if I could do a poll on Harvard Square of 50 Harvard students, I would not ask them, "Do you believe in God?" I would ask, "If you don't believe in God, do you hope you're right or wrong?" That, that's what I would ask.

What's interesting about this topic that we're discussing, that people believe what they want to believe. In some ways, that's a good thing. You need to be aspirational in, in your thoughts in order to advance yourself, advance your society. But that also leads to the Achilles heel of believing in things that are not in accordance with reality. So what I'm saying is it, when you can temper it, it can be a good thing. But now we live in a society where people, to your point, don't choose to internalize reality. They only internalize—

well, it would be very good. I'll test you right now, and you don't have to pass the test right now because you'd probably have to give it some thought. But I'm testing me right now as I'm talking to you. Where in my life, or where in your life, do we have a distinction that we could draw clearly now between what I, what I believe and what I want to believe. In other words, do— is, is just about everything people believe what they want to believe? So let's go to, let's go to masks. I admit I didn't want masks to work, not because I didn't want to prevent, uh, the, uh, the spread of the disease. I mean, well I take that back. If it really prevented the spread of the disease, I hope that worked. Of course I do. I don't want the disease to spread. But I was, I was more aware of the damage socially it was doing, especially to children. When I saw 2-year-olds forced to wear masks on airplanes, I thought, I'm living in a really sick society. So anyway, my only point is I'm challenging Dennis right now. Where are there things that I believe and that I don't want to believe, or are they always in sync? Which, if they are, that's not a good sign.

No, I think this is very intellectually honest of you to raise. I was thinking about this recently with regard to abortion. I have said on this show and on my own show that I'm very conflicted about abortion, and if I'm being intellectually honest right now, I want to believe that if given— if and when women are given the right to have an abortion, that they will use it responsibly and only in the most extenuous of circumstances. I want to— there's a part of me that wants to believe that the right thing is to give a woman a choice over her body. But I'm— I believe— but also, even— I don't know if this makes sense, but sort of my, my mind is telling me that I'm pro-choice, but my heart is telling me that I'm pro-life. I want to believe in the pro-choice arguments, but what I internally do believe is that it is wrong and immoral to kill a child.

Well, okay, so the heart-mind is a good way of asking yourself, anyone, Am I committed to truth? So take the abortion issue. So this— I've never said this because it's never come up even in my mind, let alone on the air. So I, I would like to believe that it is not a human for the first trimester. Exactly. I would like to believe that. So my stance on abortion, which is obviously more pro-life, is not what I want to believe.

Same. That's— yes, that's what I'm trying— probably not very well articulated, but that's what I was trying to say. I want to believe in the pro-choice arguments. Yeah, but if I really go down to the core of my deeply moral self—

this is a really good one. Abortion. It is. Because the people who say it's nothing, it's a pimple, that they want to believe that. Exactly. They can't— you can't rationally believe that. Yes. A woman wants the child. It's, it's, it's homicide. She doesn't want the child. It's, it's health. It's health care.

I want to believe that by being pro-choice, I am not killing a child in the womb. But if I, if I, if I stood before— I know how this sounds corny and dramatic, but if I stood before God, I morally, I would have to be honest in that it is, it is killing a child in the womb. And I couldn't make a good moral argument as to why it isn't. This is something I have to tell you, this is something that really plagues me, abortion, because especially as a woman, I mean, you know, I think sometimes, and again, this shows what I said at the beginning of the show, I'm anti-nervous on this show. I just let it all out. If I were in a position right now where I got pregnant, I have to be, I mean, there's part of me that would want to abort it. And there's a part of me that would think it is horribly morally wrong and that I would be a terrible person if I aborted it. It's really a tough thing. I, I get, I see how I'm 23 years old and having a child right now would not be good. I don't think I would be able to take the best care of the child. There's no, there would be no husband. But also, I would also view it as, as literally as killing another life.

This is an interesting, it's really hard. So detour here, which is redundant. Detour is our side, but it's okay.

I said bizarre eccentricities.

You did indeed. I think you could have non-bizarre eccentricities. You were a little too self-critical. But, uh, would you consider giving the child up for adoption?

Well, I think that would haunt me if I had a child of my own and gave it up for adoption and then would think for the rest of my life and that child's life that my kid was out there? The answer is no. I would either abort it or keep it, and probably I would keep it because I just don't know. I just don't know if I, Julie, would be able to go through with the abortion. But I wouldn't give it up for adoption.

You would sooner abort?

I would. Yeah, I would, honestly. Yeah, no, I appreciate it. And by the way, that's being very honest, and maybe that's selfish of me. Because it would be easier for me to not know that there's a child of mine out there living without me. So I guess it's more selfish for me to say that I would first abort it than give it up for adoption. But again, I'm just being honest.

You know, one of my two children is—

Of course, of course I know that.

And I've thought about this my whole life. Obviously he's now 30, so not my whole life, but a big chunk of it. So I've thought of his birth mother a fair amount. Isn't it interesting nobody thinks of the birth father?

Yes, it is.

That is very interesting. Very interesting. Nobody says, or virtually no one says, to an adopted kid or adopted adult, uh, have you been curious to meet your birth mother? They always say that. You've been curious to meet your birth father? People think, what?

Why do you think that is?

The, the birth father obviously didn't carry you. That's a very— that's the biggest factor. And basically, and, and it's often not even fair, but he's regarded as basically a sperm donor. He doesn't have a human, uh, face, as it were, uh, to, to people. But I, I've thought about that. If I— I don't have an answer. I'm not a woman. And that in this instance it matters, I do think, because I did— you carrying it, you have a bond, or can have a bond, in giving birth. And the baby comes out and you see that child. And I think of it as, would I be happy If I knew the couple adopting the child was a loving, stable, good— in my case, religious couple— or is it— it's not irrelevant, of course, but there's no way to assuage my bad feelings. I don't know the answer because I don't give birth, right? But that, that's the question obviously that a lot of people ask. However, I would say to any woman who is pregnant and it was unplanned and unwanted. Between abortion and giving a child to a loving couple, I mean, it's, it's so bizarre. Talking about bizarre, that is bizarre, that I would feel worse giving the child up to a loving couple than killing it.

Well, look, that's— I mean, that is— that was kind of my answer to you a few minutes ago. No, but I understand it, but I recognize that it's selfish morally. Yeah, extremely. Also, also, just to note, it's one thing to talk about this in the ether. It's another thing if it were actually reality. If I, if I were in this situation, I really do think I would sooner I think actually I would sooner give it up for adoption than abort it, knowing me. But as I'm thinking about this, again, this is very apropos of our conversation. What do you want to believe versus what is reality or what you might actually do? Thinking about it just right now, I just, I can't imagine the heartbreak of giving up your child for adoption. And this is said with respect and deep respect for people who do it. I think it is a very noble thing to do and I know it is heart-wrenching for the mothers and fathers who do it. But it would sort of be psychologically easier to never see the face of your child or know that it was, you know, sort of pretend like it never existed, i.e., to abort it, than to give birth to it, see it, and know that it can't be yours. So this abortion thing, I have been thinking about this so much lately because I no longer think that I can in good conscience say that I am pro-choice. A, because my views have evolved, but also I do, I have come to view it as me following what I want to believe versus what is morally true. And what is morally true is that you are killing a child. So that's an example.

Yes, that's what I gave before you. It's really hard. I want to believe that it's not a child. Yep. But I, so there's an example of where what I want to believe and what I believe are in conflict. People need to make those lists. That— so it's very interesting that the people who say defund the police— yeah, I mean, the next example, that's got to be— and I want to believe it's so stupid, forgetting politics— the fewer police, the less crime. Do you understand the idiocy? If, let us say, there were 3 cops in every school, would there be as many school shootings? Right.

Yes or no? Well, you know, what's, what's interesting here too is, is I, I get, so the people who want to defund the police want to believe that we can live in a world where you don't need police. It's interesting because when I think about this now, I don't know if I want to believe that we live, even if I were designing the universe from scratch, I don't know if I would want a universe where there's no police. Outside of the fact that functionally it wouldn't work. Functionally, we need police. But what I'm saying is I don't really have a problem with the fact that we live in a world where we need police, because for me, that's tied up with justice. I'm glad that criminals get arrested. I'm again, right, out of functional reasons, for moral—

well, we would hope that there would be a world where there's so few bad people. Of course. Yeah, but that's absurd. It's exactly right. That is a good question. This thing is preoccupying me now. It's like it's the ultimate candy bar, a great new idea. And people should test themselves. What do they believe that they don't want to believe?

Well, I had this conversation with someone recently when I was just telling them how bad things are in the United States, you know, in the wake of this Trump indictment, as you argue so eloquently on your radio show, we are no different right now than a third world country where we are imprisoning opposition leaders for, on quite literally trumped up charges. But so I was telling someone, you know, with whom I'm close, who is conservative, you know, about the really bad direction that our country is going in. And he said something, he responded to me and he said, you know, Julie, America will prevail. America has always prevailed. You know, we've gotten through the '60s, we've gotten through the Civil War, we've gotten through, uh, 9/11, etc. You know, we're going to get through this too. And I said to this person, I said, is that something that you want to believe? I did. Good. I said, I said, first of all, with all due respect, that is an incredibly privileged person's thing to say. Oh, of course America is going to prevail. Do you think people in Iraq or in Afghanistan or in basically any other country in the world go, oh, Iraq will prevail. I've got my dear friends. It's just, it's so privileged.

This is a unique— not unique, there are others— a rare brain. Well, that you have realized that at such a young age, I mean, I have to take a timeout here. That is entirely accurate. Americans are spoiled. And, and by the way, wrong. There's no— there's nothing written celestially that America will prevail.

Yeah, we think it's our birthright. We, we think that it just happens to us.

The people who say that annoy me. Me too. They mean well and they annoy me. So among other things, quite different from anything in the past— Civil War, '60s, is that this is the first generation in human history that is godless, that is religionless. This has never happened. It didn't happen in pre-biblical society. People were religious.

Well, what's baked into that statement— and then, by the way, this is a dear friend of mine who— and it's so, it's so hard because I know that he's not an arrogant person. I know that he's not a bad person. He's one of the most morally upstanding people I know. But baked into that statement is a bit of arrogance, like, oh, well, you know, we Americans are of course going to get through this because we are so special and we are the anointed. That's what really bothers me about the statement. And there's just a total lack of understanding of history. I mean, I really think what is at the root of every single problem we see now, and I mean every single problem, is that we are so effing spoiled. We have the worst thing that happened to America, of course, slavery and Jim Crow and all those terrible things. But alongside those, I would say one of the worst things that happened to America is that it became so good. And it became so unprecedentedly equal and fair compared to other countries because it has led to this spoiled brat syndrome, which has now infected every area of our society and is unraveling the very society that became so great. I mean, that's really our problem here. And for someone just to say, oh, America's going to prevail, it's like, again, do you realize how privileged you are? But anyway, I said to him, is this what you want to believe? Or is this what you really do believe? And actually, Dennis, I think it's both. I think that he certainly wants to believe that, but I think he also truly does believe that America will prevail because America has.

Yeah, I believe he believes that. I think he's brainwashed. And so here's another example, the one that really has annoyed me all of my life. People who say people are basically good, uh, that, that is such a— well, that's, that's, by the way, that is a, that is a function of how good it's been to Americans. There's no doubt in my mind if you asked Russians, are people basically good, The overwhelming majority would say no. Where people suffer, they don't answer the idiotic answer, human nature is basically good. You have to have been so spoiled by a decent society, which America has been until the very recent past, that you believe that nonsense. But that's a great example of, like the rabbi I debated on the issue, he wants to believe that people are basically good. The proof is He's a rabbi, an Orthodox rabbi, believes in the Torah, and the Torah says God said we're not basically good, and God's wrong. I know it proves he believes it because he wants to believe it. It doesn't even matter if God says you're wrong.

You know, another example of our spoiledness is, is the unbelief in God. It is a luxury to not believe in God. It is a luxury to not need God in your life.

To think you don't need God.

Right, of course. Well, that's a very, very important distinction. That's like when you correct me when I say we were sent home due to COVID, you go, no, we were sent home due to lockdowns. Those itty-bitty distinctions matter. You're right. It is, you know, it's funny because if you look at the people in this country who don't believe in God, it is overwhelmingly the affluent, the people who have had it so good that they think that they don't need to rely on religion.

There's an old saying, you'll love this. What's it, uh, he's a self-made man and he worships his creator. Yes, you said that.

You said that on a recent episode, minute 46. Yes, episode 53.

By the way, since you're into little corrections— yeah, oh no, yeah, you— there's no way you would know this. I know I did, but I have cared about this. I've cared about speaking proper English since I was a kid. You said heart-wrenching. It's heart-rending, gut-wrenching.

Heart-rending? Yes. I've never heard that. Look it up. What is it? What is heart?

The same. Rend is to tear apart. To rend is to tear.

And gut-wrenching? Yes.

Yes, you wrench your guts, you rend your heart.

All right, noted. I'm sure it is with you.

It is.

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Here's an interesting question on that. Does it matter? And I think it does.

I'm sorry, does what matter? Diction? The proper speaking.

People have had— have come to an instrumental view of language. If people understand what you're saying, it doesn't matter if it's correct or not. So, I mean, theoretically, I could say Me go to the drugstore. Do you understand that? Perfectly. Does it matter? Right. So wait, does it matter? By the way, me has become a subject. Me was always an object. Me and my friends went to the store. No, my friends and I, or I and my friends. You don't say me went to the store. Why would you say me and my friends went to the store? But it is now me has become a subject, not an object. It's not only an object? I think it does matter.

A, because the B is more important than A, but, but A, because I just think it's important to be an elegant, well-spoken person. It, for me, it goes along with your favorite word and my favorite word, dignity. I view it as dignified to, to have proper language. But also, I really, really try to have proper language, even though you're right, it's actually quite an interesting question. Because you can, you know what I was saying when I said heart-wrenching, even though it's not correct. I know what you're saying when you say me go to the drugstore. But I view clarity as important in every part of my life. My clarity in my language. If I am scrupulous in my language, then I will be scrupulous in my thoughts and my actions. I view everything as— does that make sense? Interrelated. Interrelated. I really do. I end my show Timeless by saying each of our thoughts, choices, and actions shape who we are. I really believe that. Everything that we do, literally everything, what we think, the way we interact with the cashier, the way we speak, the way we drive, the way everything, I think culminates and adds up and shapes who you are. And that includes proper language. That's the use of heart-wrenching. Fascinating. Here, I'll let people—

Well, yeah, but the better one to look up is heart-wrenching. Heartrending is accurate. This is only telling you that it was a more common term in 1840 than in 1940. But if you look up heartwrenching, you will see it didn't exist because it's not the correct, the proper term. It's so interesting. People don't care though. No, they don't.

It's— Why do you think it matters? I'm sorry to interrupt you.

For your reasons. Life consists— life should consist of doing the right thing. Unless you believe there is no right way to speak English, or any language obviously, then of course there's a right way to speak it. And I remember in high school, I didn't know whether it was rending or wrenching. And I looked it up and I saw gut-wrenching and heart-rending. Now, I admit, no other kid in my high school class looked it up. They didn't care. So you wonder, what do people care about? Which is its own interesting question. If language doesn't matter— and by the way, this applies not just to people on the left. My favorite example on the right is all the religious Christians who call my show and tell me it doesn't matter what you wear to church. God doesn't care how you dress. So what does God care? Seriously, what does God care about? Here, here, look. Okay, is my proof. Gut-wrenching was not used at all until when? What is the last year? '80. Yeah, exactly. When people— when heart-wrenching— when people started to use English improperly. Look, People should see that graph. It was zero because it doesn't exist. Yeah, it's not a term.

Well, it's just, it's a loosening of standards writ large in every area of life. There's been loosening of standards.

People who don't dress up for church are part of the problem. Well, I, my mother made me dress up for the airplane.

I know. I love that. My dad says that too. I think that's so endearing and, and right. I think that's right. I also, and I've said this on the show before about myself, and I know you You feel the same way. I want to reach my potential, my fullest potential as a human being. I'm trying to recognize that I can never be perfect. Do you know, the viewers know I'm very hard on myself. I'm not trying to make myself into a robot, but I want to refine myself and become the most— Yes. Elegant. You do. Full person possible. And that includes my language. I, yes. You know, I just, if I can, that's not an aspiration for many people.

And why that?

It's actually a very interesting set. Why not? It is so— I say this, it is really empowering and fun to be able to correct yourself and mold yourself into a better person. Who doesn't view that as empowering and fun? I don't understand that. I don't think about that.

Yeah, people don't think about that.

Well, I'll tell one other thing that's been on my mind. So I recently read this incredible book, Dennis, you would really enjoy it, called A Flag Worth Dying For by Tim Tim Marshall, and he goes through, not all, because that would be a very long detailed book, but he goes through many of the flags of the world and explains their origins. And of course, by explaining their origins, you learn so much about a country's history. It is, you would really, really love the book. I love that. I think anyone would love the book. Again, A Flag Worth Dying For by Tim Marshall. By the way, before I go on to my point, I did not know that the Union Jack, which is the flag of the United Kingdom, is basically the four countries— England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland— flags superimposed onto one. Did you know that? No. Okay, this is so cool. This is— if Sean can pull up a photo of this— basically the flag of England is a white background with a red X, and the flag of Scotland is a white background with a— and basically the United Kingdom flag is all of those flags into one. Oh, that's cool. It's so cool. And it's just stuff like that when you read the book and you You just, you see the world differently.

Scotland secedes, will they change their flag?

I don't— well, Scotland has its own flag.

I know.

And then if Scotland secedes, oh, will the UK change its flag?

I don't know. It's an interesting one.

It is. And then through that book, I learned about the Northern Ireland conflict and versus the Republic of Ireland and Protestants versus Catholics. It's an amazing, amazing book. Um, but I was speaking with someone about this someone who I know, and she sort of responded in this lukewarm way about the book. And it got me thinking, look, obviously not everyone is going to have the same interests as I do. I recognize that. And to your great point, it's a good thing that we have diversity in natures and interests because that's what makes the world function and makes the world interesting. But I don't understand people who aren't curious about the world. And I say this with, I'm not trying to be condescending. I'm not trying to sound overly judgmental, but I feel like there's something inherently wrong with you if you don't find anything about the world to be cool. G.K. Chesterton, who I know I reference a lot, talks about in his book Orthodoxy being a cosmic patriot. That's a term he uses, like having sort of a patriotism towards life and being an— not just being a patriotic citizen or a dutiful mother, father, husband, wife, child, etc., but being clued into life and being patriotic of the fact that you are in this world and you should try to understand it and find interest in it. I love when he wrote about that. I think that's so true. And a lot of people don't have that cosmic patriotism and it leads to a very dull life. But I— you'll love that.

You know what I said to my kids if they'd say they're bored? No, you're boring. Yeah. And they never said it again that they were bored. Well, it's a great answer. Parents should give that. If you're bored, you're boring. That's what it means. How can you be bored? It doesn't— I have to acknowledge I got a lot of things I have to fight in my own nature, like everybody, but I have never been bored Well, that's not true. I was bored in school because I wasn't allowed to do all of the things that interested me. But seriously, aside from that, what is out there, the ability of music and languages and literature and reading and playing, and I mean, I don't understand it. You're right, I don't understand it.

And Pete, in growing up, I had this idea that it was easier to lead an interesting life if you were more affluent, because you can go to museums, you can travel, you can have certain experiences, meet certain people, go to certain places that other people can't. And of course, there's an element of truth to that. But I actually, I think that's sort of a farce. It is actually remarkably easy.

Oh yes, I'll bet. I'll bet a lot of the affluent are bored.

Oh, there were no challenges. Definitely. But even, I mean, go to your library and check out a book or go, I know it sounds, this sounds like boring to some people, go up to your town square and try to read the plaque. Like read the plaque of whatever statue's there. Just look up and pay attention. And if you look up and pay attention, you will find that everything around you is cool and interesting. That's my little Dennis and Julie sermon.

That was a good one. What's our story, Sean? Oh, cool.

Do you know? I didn't hear.

What is the story? He wants us to go another 2 hours.

We, we could.

That's true. That would be fun, actually. A marathon. Yeah, like a Lex Friedman type show. Porta-potties and, and food. There's— look, look, there it is. England, Scotland, Northern Ireland.

Isn't that cool? And, uh, Wales—

or no, Wales. So let me, let me understand. So England is the, is the perfect perpendicular cross, Scotland is the white, and Northern Ireland is the red. That's fascinating. Wait, where's Wales?

Okay, this is interesting. Wales from, from the 17th century was sort of fused with England, so Wales doesn't appear on this, but the flag of Wales is a dragon. Oh, so it doesn't count, but because it's sort of seen as a part of England. I like that.

I love that stuff.

Oh my God. Okay. So I'll tell you two other examples and then I will shut up. I promise. The flag of Brazil is really cool. You know, it's the, it's green and then there's a globe. Yeah. And there's, there's stars on the flag and it's, it actually is the constellation of the night that, that Brazil declared independence from Portugal. Another cool example, everyone should look up the Ugandan flag.

It's— So that has an animal. Yeah. How'd you know? I know all the flags. That— Oh yes.

'Cause of the, the Tops flag cards. Yes. Yes. It's like these colors that are purposefully not red, white, or blue. A lot of countries, a lot of, right. Those countries don't, don't like those colors. Um, and there's a crane, a bird. Yes. On it. And it's supposed to be a graceful bird that reflects the gracefulness of the Ugandan people. I mean, the whole, I mean, I get if some people don't find this interesting. It's right. So here's the interesting part.

We don't understand why everybody doesn't find it interesting.

I know. Another thing. So the American flag is red, white, and blue. What other two flags are red, white, and blue?

France and Britain.

Wow. You're right. I was thinking of another country.

Okay, hold on. Oh, sorry. Yep. Russia. I'm sorry.

Yes. And you know, the tricolor flag the, the three colors, obviously. Um, France has a red, white, and blue tricolor. And the reason why Italy has a tricolor is because Napoleon, when he came and conquered Italy, he made Italy adopt a tricolor. That's why a lot of European countries also have tricolor flags, because Italy is orange, white, and what's the third color? I think green.

That's right. So I'd love to know what the orange represents. Green is usually pastors. White, what is white usually?

Purity, some purity idea. And the flag of Saudi Arabia has a sword under the creed, and the sword is pointing in the direction that you read Arabic, from left to right, not right to left.

No, right to left, not left to right. You're right. I know, I know Arabic too. And it says, That's pretty incredible. I've got to learn a language. You do. That is a big surprise to me. Imagine, had you devoted all the time you did to swimming, uh, to foreign languages, you would be a polyglot.

That's a great word.

That's a really great word. Yes, a master of many languages. So, Dennis, hold on, Sean is asking something. He asked, was it language that fascinated me first, or was it travel that produced the love of language? It was, it was language first. I, but obviously they, travel increased it. Let me tell you something, this is because this is a big kick in my life. If you speak any language in the country of that language, most people will react so positively to you. I remember I asked a guy in Morocco in one of my first travels abroad, and I was studying Arabic at college, so I said, "Aina al-bariid?" I remember the sentence, "Where is the post office?" The guy sees this American white face come out with Where is the post office? And I— it was in Rabat, Morocco. And I remember thinking I could run for mayor of Rabat. It's how popular I got. Steve Marmer, whom you know and we have made reference to, was on one of my cruises with listeners many years ago. One of the places we went was Russia. Wow, wow, wow, wow. Yeah, so in St. Petersburg Uh, he saw me in a store and I was with a pretty Russian young woman. Of course you were. Correct. That's fair. I'm kidding. And no, you're not kidding. I'm not entirely accurate. So, so, and I was speaking Russian and he came over to me afterwards and he goes, oh my God, I can only imagine how you were in your 20s.

Oh, chicks must have flocked to you. If you— charisma, public speaker.

Okay, I wasn't even thinking that, but that's, that's great. But knowing any of their language, that, that was the ultimate. That was true.

Especially if you— well, you don't struggle with it, but especially if you're a little earnest and struggling slightly and they can correct you.

Yeah, well, they could, believe me. I always— I would still struggle, but it I don't understand why people don't want to learn languages.

I really do. I unfortunately, I didn't have the best experience learning Spanish in high school. I actually really liked my teachers, but I just, it didn't, didn't really click with me. There was a book, by the way, I've been meaning to ask you, you said on this program that I should read about the formulation of different languages. Yes.

The Story of Language. Thank you. By I.M. Pei. P-E-I. I must have read it 3 times. Oh, I'm going to get it. Oh, you will go nuts. He is so— I'm so excited. And the number of languages he knew, he knew was beyond belief. Oh, it's very exciting. I love reading about the obscure ones like Finnish and Hungarian. They fascinate me because they're not related to anything. They're related to each other, but the Finns and Hungarians don't speak to each other at all. Any more than we do. It— have you ever seen either of those languages? Go to, uh, go to Translate on the internet. Yeah, right. And put in anything like, hello, how are you, in, in Hungarian or Finnish. You will have no idea what it says. If you got Italian or Spanish or any, anything else, it would make sense to you at least. But they don't.

I learned a valuable lesson from our dear Astrid, who I love talking to. She just started her own radio program in Denmark. She's just wonderful. Anyway, she asked me, how do you think— she said, Julie, how do you think you pronounce my last name, which is spelled H-O-G?

Oh no, there's no way. I— we have no chance.

I had no idea. And it just showed me the— like, yes, diversity obviously is such an overused and abused word today, but it really did show me the diversity in sounds and language. Phenomenal. It's pronounced her. It's not.

Okay, I have a good— I have no idea. She tried it with me.

She's probably laughing watching this. It's not her, but it's, it's more, it's more— yes, it's something very foreign to our ear. But isn't that amazing?

It's just amazing what people have come up with Oh my gosh.

Oh, you guys just wait. You think I was talking your ear off about flags? Now that I am going to read this, this book, I'm going to come in here in 2 weeks and talk to you all about languages the whole time.

I would love that. I'm not sure everybody else would, but yeah, our job is to make that stuff interesting.

Yes, it is. So, um, speaking of our job, yeah, how do people reach us?

Good. Before we say goodbye, I do want to say something. When I said to you, we'll make it interesting. So here's something I learned from all— actually, I learned this from even before radio. Did I ever tell you my studying of boring dates?

Oh yes, yes, but tell the audience.

So I I made lemonade out of lemons. Everybody has gone on bad or boring dates. So I decided to do something, and it was really important. If I was on a— in my 20s, I wasn't married till I was 32, so I would date in my 20s, obviously. And a lot— some, I don't know, a lot— some dates were just boring. And instead of lamenting that they were boring, I decided to make a study of boring people. What renders a person boring? And I came up with two answers which are very interesting. One is they were not curious about me. Now, I have no great desire to talk about me the whole time. I've never— you're with me with other people. People. I am much more interested in others. But if you don't ask the person you're dating with any questions about them, it's a bad sign. It means you're not curious and you're narcissistic. So they— it was a lack of curiosity. They could only talk about themselves. That's boring. But the other one was they had no passion. It's true. And it That really led me to realize I'm very lucky because I'm passionate about so many things, including fountain pens. I mean, it's an ongoing joke on my happiness hour or my last hour of the week on radio. Call me about anything, including fountain pens. But it's not a joke. You saw it and you relate to it. This is your nature. Yes. When you sat in my house few weeks ago. And so fun. What are you looking at? I'm looking at inks. It was a very big moment to me about you that you got into all the colors of the inks.

I will be honest with you, Dennis, that actually was a really big moment for me about me too, because as I have said to you and as I've said on this show, it's really— it's— I mean, this show is so, so fun and great for so many reasons, but selfishly I watched— I've sort of watched myself grow up on this. I mean, I am growing, but you know, I've watched myself kind of progress. And I remember talking about this and, and saying that I need to do a better job coming up with a hobby. Um, and by the way, I think this is, this is true of a lot of people my age when they think a hobby has to be some very specific conventional active thing that is, has been traditionally called a hobby, like riding a bike or playing an instrument, et cetera. When I was sitting there with you and I was so enamored, as corny as it sounds, with the different gradations of color that, that different fountain pen inks have, I realized this is my hobby. My hobby is just, is learning about the world, being interested in being taken with something that catches my eye. That's not conventionally understood as a hobby, but that sort of liberated me from thinking that I had to develop a specific skill, or does that make any sense?

Yeah, life is your hobby. Yes, that's a good one, and it's yours. Anyway, we'll conclude with people listening: take this test. What do you want to believe, and is there any time that you want to believe something but don't believe it? Otherwise, you run the risk of only believing what you want to believe.

That is a really, really good point, especially the fact that everyone will, if they are intellectually honest, have things that they want to believe and things that are, that they, that are in accordance with reality. Every, for us it's abortion. For any, any good person should have, yes, if you're intellectually honest. So Dennis, for the sake of Prager Memes, which is this online meme, uh, account, which we adore, how do people reach us? Oh, ha ha.

@DennisJulie pod.

Unbelievable. Well done. No, seriously, well done.

Or at Julie at julie-hartman.com.

I am not— I'm not being facetious. I'm actually quite proud of you. That shows a lot of growth. He doesn't— he doesn't remember this ever. That's correct. Shalom, everyone.

Have people subscribe to the channel.

Oh yes. So we, uh, as you can see from this video, we are posting Dennis and Julie from now on on my Julie Hartman YouTube channel because the Dennis Prager Show YouTube channel hasn't really been used besides for Dennis and Julie. So please do subscribe to this channel so that every Monday when a new D&J drops, you get the notification.

Thank you. Shalom.

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