Dennis & Julie: Vulnerability

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com. Hey everybody, I love this opening theme. I have to tell you, Julie picked it out.

The listeners love it too, by the way.

Is that right?

I get a lot of emails asking what the name of the song is. It's something—

oh God, wait a minute, something?

Didn't you—

wait, wait, you picked it out and you don't know the name?

No, it's The Night Sweats. Is that the name of the song or the band, Sean?

Oh, you picked it out, Sean.

Wait a minute, this is gonna be a fight. He sent me like 50 options.

50? 5-0?

Yes, like many, many, many options, and then I picked this, so I get the credit, Sean. Okay, I'm just kidding.

He gets half of it. Nathaniel Ratcliffe and the Night Sweats.

See, I was right, the Night Sweats.

I so like this, I actually looked up their albums on, on the streaming service I use.

What is the streaming service you use?

Oh, well, I use Qobuz. You wouldn't know them. Most people wouldn't know them.

I've never heard of them.

Qobuz. But they have everything. Q-O-B-U-Z. It's a French thing. But they specialize in classical. And Tidal. So I have two there. Those are the ones. And they have non-classical as well. So I looked this up. Dennis Prager here and Julie Hartman. That's why it's called Dennis and Julie. I think I should review for one moment, Julie. You'll be embarrassed, but I, but I have to do it. I was thinking I should sort of give a 1-minute introduction, reintroduction to why we do this.

Sure.

So folks, this month is the 40th, 40th anniversary of my radio broadcasting. By the way, you know, 40 is big in the Bible. 40 days of the flood is the flood.

Oh right.

40 nights Moses is on Sinai getting the Ten Commandments. 40 years the Jews wander in the, in the wilderness till they get into the Promised Land. 40 is a very important number, and it, it As I explained in my Bible commentary, The Rational Bible, 40 doesn't mean the number between 39 and 41. Numbers in the Bible, certainly in the Torah, the first 5 books, are meant to convey notions. 40 means a divinely significant period of time. It doesn't mean between 39 and 41.

Why do you think 40 specifically?

There's no answer.

Yeah, like a random number.

I'd have to speak to God. But, uh, but that— so I think, oh my God, well, in my case it is the number between 39 and 41, but it, it's, it's an incredible period of time. So do you realize that I have been on radio as long as the Jews were in the wilderness?

That is pretty funny.

That is funny.

Yes. Okay, you've been on radio almost twice as long as I've been alive.

That's correct. It's eerie. The whole thing's eerie. So that's a good, good segue to my just reintroducing that, folks. I have never co-hosted anything in all 40 years. I'm not a snob. I think co-hosts that work well are great, but I have a lot to say on my own. And I sort of structure the show around me. So it is a statement of how unique I think Julie is that we do this. I'll leave it at that because people get annoyed if I compliment you too much.

Well, it is a huge honor to be your first co-host, and I hope that we do this for a long time. And I think I like the way that you just said that we want to remind our viewers of why we do this, because I know that we've discussed this on our own. One of the things that I think is very unique about our podcast is that we talk about real life. It really— I think we started off, and correct me if I'm wrong or if you disagree, we kind of started off talking about news items, and then I've noticed, I think around episode maybe 9 or 10, we seamlessly— and I don't even know if we were aware of it— transitioned to just talking about our own lives or these kind of greater themes.

I think that's—

and I really like that. And by the way, a lot of the viewers are saying that they like it too because I don't think there's really— of course, you know, I'm saying this because I'm the co-host of this podcast, but I don't, I don't see anything else like that out there besides your show. Your show is very human.

Right. Agreed. But this is even more human because it's two humans, right? So it's double human, human squared.

And we're both extremely vulnerable on this podcast too. I mean, I've talked about things here that I only really talk about with my parents and close friends.

So You make, you, you make me think of something to talk about vulnerable. Listen to this one. This is what just hit me. Then I'll ask you to give me the answer, or an answer. I don't know if there is the answer. And then we'll get to a vulnerable subject that I, that I have in mind based on something you told my wife and me recently. So on the vulnerable issue, So in general, do people want to see people that they admire as vulnerable or as sort of superman-ish? So for example, take me. I know a lot of people have respect for me, and I think I've earned it, to be honest. So does it sort of diminish the way they see me if they were to see me as vulnerable?

I don't think so. I mean, but then again, that's just my opinion. I don't know for the masses, but I think I respect you more when you're vulnerable. I, we, we talked about this a few episodes ago. I hate when, and I know a lot of these people at my college and just in life who will refuse to say when something is wrong. Or will refuse to critique their lives in any kind of way. I think I said we have these family friends and every time you see them, oh, you know, this child is great. This child just got into X college. This child just won some award. I mean, everything is like skipping through the daisy fields. I don't like that. I think that it's inauthentic and it's fake. So I really appreciate when someone like you is vulnerable. I think it bolsters your respect, but again, it's just me.

What do you think? So, well, I don't have a complete answer. If I were certain of the answer, I wouldn't have asked it. I don't just raise questions, even if they're interesting, if I don't think— if I think I have an answer to it. But it is one of the reasons that I do regularly tell people— I did it on my show just this week. I was talking about I don't remember how it came out, but I, I was thinking, or no, I was talking about life and people's— people having issues and the pain that's out there. And oh, I was just speaking about how lucky I feel that I have a wonderful wife, wonderful kids, and wonderful friends. I mean, I truly— you know, all of this is true. And I'm very, very lucky. But I immediately added, don't think my whole life's been lucky.

It hasn't, right? And you talk openly about that too.

And I think it's important because I don't want people to think I've— I liked your phrase, I've never used it, I'm not sure I even heard it— skip through the lily fields.

Oh, the daisy fields.

Daisy fields. Oh my God, I got the wrong flower. Wait, it's tip— say it again. Tiptoe through the tulips, he says.

Oh, I didn't know that that was a saying. I just came up with the skipping through the daisy fields on my own because it's the image I have.

No wonder I never heard it.

Yeah, no, that was— I coined that myself.

This is hilarious.

Wow, so there's a—

okay, so what was your line?

Skipping through the daisy fields. I just have this image.

No, I know, obviously we all got it. Yes, but I thought, oh, that's a, that's a funny saying, skipping through the lily fields. And then he corrects us, is tiptoe through the tulips.

Oh, whatever.

Did you ever hear tiptoe through the tulips?

I've never heard that.

You also never heard— we established right before the show— monkey's uncle.

What, what was that again? What did I say?

I'll be, I'll be a monkey's uncle. That, that's a phrase you would use if something incredible you just heard.

I have never heard that ever. Ever. You know, I love little colloquialisms or sayings. They're the best. One of the ones— I don't know, Sean, please Google this because now I'm curious to see if they exist outside the realm of my family. I got this one from my mother and I use it a lot. Sometimes when she's talking about a subject that— or someone asks her a question and she doesn't want to go there, she goes, "I'm not touching that one with a 10-foot pole." Oh no, no, that's very common.

Oh, 10-foot pole? Oh my God.

What a fall from grace.

No, I have one. Are you ready? I do have one unique to my mother. I heard this from my mother regularly. Not, not every day, not every week, but certainly more than a few times when she would say something happened a long time ago. Let's say, oh, I haven't seen this cousin. And then she would say this phrase, since Jesus left Pittsburgh. And I grew up Sean's look is worth everything.

I love that.

Is that awesome?

That is.

So I remember thinking as a kid, that's a great phrase. And then I would use it. People go, what? Since Jesus left Pittsburgh? I don't know where on God's earth my mother heard that.

I had a saying in college. Okay, now I'm really opening up. When someone was drunk, I would go, well, they're green eggs and hammered. That was my, that was my line. So people sort of would bring that up to me.

They go, you made that up?

Yeah, that they're green eggs and hammered. Do you get it?

Well, green eggs and ham.

Yeah, but they're hammered, like they're drunk. They're hammered. And I say, well, they're green eggs and hammered.

I prefer—

maybe we cut that part out.

I prefer, since Jesus left Pittsburgh, frankly.

Sean's laughing.

Wait, wait, wait, you heard— oh, you Googled it and what did you get? Since Christ left Chicago. Then this is— you now have explained the puzzle of my life. She probably heard since Christ left Chicago once and she changed it to Jesus and Pittsburgh. Yes, I like since Jesus left Pittsburgh.

You know what, I really want— I love this topic and I want to ask our listeners, please write in to me with some phrases or colloquialisms that you 'Cause I love that. Sometimes I'll say that people are a hoot and a holler and a half. I go, well, they're a hoot and a holler and a half.

Did you make that up too?

Yes, I did. But now let's talk about—

Yeah, but we can't use the ones you make up. We have to use ones that—

Why? Why can't we use the ones I make up?

Then we'll do the lily fields.

Yeah.

Daisies, sorry.

Daisies, yeah, you keep saying lilies. Whatever, it's fine.

Terrible mistake.

Back to vulnerability. I have a point that I want to make before I forget. I actually think that one of the biggest problems in my generation is that people are afraid to be vulnerable. We are sort of, we sort of have this idea that we have to be experts on everything and have formed opinions on everything. I even find this in political debates. Very few people have the strength of character to say that they don't know when they're asked about a subject or that they don't have an opinion on the subject because there's this left-wing view that has taken hold. And I've heard many leftists espouse it that if you don't have an opinion on an issue, then you're, you're ill-informed, you're not doing your homework, or as they like to say, you're not doing the work to understand, you know, systemic racism, XYZ, all of the problems that exist in the world. So I think that, again, people adopt this idea that they have to be experts on everything. And when you think that you are supposed to know everything, that squashes your ability to be vulnerable, I think.

I wrote in my diary that I kept in high school. That's one of the few regrets of my life that I didn't keep it up. But I wrote in there that, to give you an idea of how old this problem is, said something to the effect that in my day and age, uh, You're— what is it? People have this dispassionate demeanor. What exactly— what you're describing. And it drove me crazy because I have, I have passion, right? I'm not directed by it, but I have it.

And passion involves vulnerability. And we talk about how very—

well, that's— you're right.

Yes, it does.

And that's why they didn't show it.

Yes, and very few— we've talked about this ad nauseam— that very few people my age have hobbies or non-professional, non-academic interests. And I think a large part of that is because having a hobby and having passion for something does show vulnerability. For instance, one of the things that I have developed, because as you know and as our viewers know, it's very important to me at this age to— oh, I thought you were going to cough.

Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

Oh, okay.

Oh, oh, that's a—

What happened there?

That's a very good point.

Yes, what happened there, viewers, is I paused because I saw Dennis Prager press the button usually to indicate indicate that he, that he is calling.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I don't do much.

You know what, I love moments like this. Keep it in because it shows the way that the show works. Or maybe cut it out.

It shows the challenge of working with Julie.

What was I saying?

Oh, by the way, if a man can rib a woman, it's a very good sign.

Oh, you read me all the time.

Well, but, well, it's a good sign about you. It's a better sign than it is about me. It's a good sign about you. I rib my wife. Most men do not rib their wives. Most men are afraid that they'll be hurt.

I have seen a lot of women not respond well to men ribbing them or joking around with them, even in the behind.

Women don't rib women.

No, no.

By the way, so I don't forget the point you wanted to make.

I've got it.

So I always give this example. If I say to a guy, I don't know, that we're even— we're meeting at a wedding and he's dressed up and I go, you know, you really do look ugly tonight. Okay, so he'll crack up. And what it means with men is I really like you. Of course, we only rib guys we really like.

Oh, you cannot rib women.

No, can you? That's what I say.

If you cannot—

two closest women 40 years friendship, "Boy, you really look ugly tonight." That would not— it's not even conceivable.

No, I really don't, and I love joking around, but I joke around with my friends in a different way. It's off limits to rib someone. To rib a female. Yes, you're right, good clarification, because they take it so personally and view it as a non-racial equivalent of a microaggression.

That was a good line.

Was it?

A non-racial equivalent of a microaggression.

That's how they view Reddit.

What were you saying before I interrupted you?

Vulnerability. How having hobbies, having passions requires vulnerability. And one of the things that I am very, very focused on right now is developing hobbies and interests of my own because I don't want to be one of those just professional machines. I want a full life. And one of the things I'm interested to hear what your reaction to this is. One of the things I've loved doing recently for fun is I will reread— okay, this actually is showing right now vulnerability, and it's a little bit hard for me to say it because I think that people are probably going to think that it's a little childish. I love rereading young adult novels that I used to adore as a child, or as a 12 or 13-year-old. For instance, there's this fabulous, uh, series by Lemony Snicket called The Series of Unfortunate Events that I devoured when I was in 6th or 7th grade. And it took me out of the political and academic realm that I'm so often in, and it just transported me to another world. And it made me feel the sense of awe and mystery and imagination that I once felt when I was young. And I, I've just, that's kind of been my hobby. For instance, I just the other day reordered a book called The Candy Shop Wars by, oh, I can't remember the name of the, the author, but it's, it's you know, a book for 13 or 14-year-olds, and it's about how they— these young kids go into a candy shop and they have all these powers when they eat the candy. And I love reading that book.

By the way, when you think back about being 13, which is 9 years ago—

yep, it was probably actually a little younger.

All right, it doesn't matter. Uh, the question will remain the same. Does it seem like you were 13 a lifetime ago or just 9 years ago?

Oh no, it seems like I was 13 fairly recently.

Oh, it does.

I've really always— this is, this is kind of another discussion opening another can of worms. I have always been the same person. I've really— I think in many ways I am the same person.

By the way, I do love that question, and I, I don't know if I have an answer, but I, I suspect— I have a suspicion. So are we adults who we were at 9? I've wondered about that. In most cases, if you meet a 9-year-old, do you know what this person will be like at 29?

It depends on how strong their core is.

Candy Shop Wars?

Yes, that's the book.

Brandon Moll.

Yes, that's right. But you know what? Saying that that is my hobby or my interest right now, rereading fun fantasy books, that requires vulnerability.

Why?

Because again, I sort of think people are going to think that's childish. But that's why, Dennis, I think that people my age don't have hobbies. Because for one of my friends just told me the other day, and she kind of said it, you know, on the side, like don't tell anyone, she said, I love— I've started needlepointing, I love knitting. And it was very interesting to me. I said, so why are you— I understood it, but I wanted to hear from her. Why are you whispering? And she said, oh I, you know, people may think it's kind of pathetic. And I thought, ding, ding, ding, that's it right there.

That's so interesting because we have— I didn't even know what you meant when you said if you have a hobby you might come across vulnerable.

No, that's what it is.

Now I do.

Because there's— especially in the environments that I've been in, you're not supposed to needlepoint in your free time. You're not supposed to read, you know, young adult novels, fighting racism, reading the Wall Street Journal, etc.

Well, not the Wall Street Journal for the—

that's true, the New York Times for the left.

God, it's so sad.

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By the way, one final point on this, that the people who, who fear vulnerability are the ones who go to safe rooms.

Oh, exactly.

When a conservative comes to campus who are triggered.

Exactly, exactly. Who start crying when they hear something they don't like. I know, it's hilarious. That's a great point.

So I, I'm going to raise an issue that was raised privately between Julie and me and my wife. Speaking of vulnerable, this is, this is a particularly vulnerable issue, but it transfixed me because I had never heard it, and I probably should have. But anyway, it is what it is. So you said we were talking as usual about marriage.

We do talk about other things, by the way, but—

than marriage.

Than marriage.

Than getting you married specifically. And by the way, I want to make something clear to all of you listening or watching, that it's not specific— that I have a love for Julie is obvious, but I want every young person to get married.

It's true. He does. Even here at the front desk, there's a lovely young woman, and every time you see her, you go, are you dating?

And by the way, guys too. Oh yeah, absolutely.

You're an equal opportunity marriage pressurer.

Insulter, annoyer, annoyer. That's right. So anyway, you said somewhat out of nowhere that— and I found it remarkable because of how young you are to say this. I would think maybe somebody who was in their 30s or 40s and been divorced might say it. But you said that you have a fear, so it's really primal, that if you got married, that your man might cheat on you. And I was taken aback. And so I had two questions in my, in my mind, which I didn't pose to you then because I've been mulling this over. One, to the extent that a 22-year-old a woman, female, girl, would think about marriage, would she have that fear as you do? In other words, was it, was it female or was it Julie? That's really— so those are the two questions in one. Was it female or Julie? So I asked my wife and she said, to an extent, every woman fears that, but I It still doesn't answer the at 22. So how do you, how do you respond?

I was originally perplexed, to be brutally honest, by this. See, that's what happens when he coughs.

I didn't cough. You, you just, I cleared my throat.

Yes. I was originally a bit perplexed by this fear of mine. A, because I, as you know, I have two loving parents with an incredibly strong marriage. I've never ever thought that one of them were, um, was unfaithful to the other. I've never personally experienced it in, in a relationship. So, and I thought to myself, why, why am I feeling this way?

Also, that's what I'm wondering.

Right. And also I thought, you know, as you know, Dennis, I'm a very secure person. A lot of people who are insecure in relationships, I could kind of see how they would have that fear. But I, if I do say so myself, I am not insecure. So again, it, it further perplexed me, but I do think it is a female thing. And especially I think it's a young female thing. Because we've talked about this a lot, hookup culture in college, and I would imagine in high school, but I went to an all-girls school and I studied for 4 years, so I, I wasn't in any kind of social scene. But hookup culture is very prevalent among young people. And what happens is even though you're not in a relationship, you get used to this idea of men quote unquote cheating on you or not being faithful to you or not being monogamous. I cannot tell you how many times in college I had girlfriends who would hook up with a guy, the next morning he would not text her, he would not— sometimes they'd be in the dining hall and the guy wouldn't even look at her or acknowledge her presence. And then 2 or 3 nights later, the guy, you know, we'd hear, we'd see the guy, you know, canoodling with another girl in the corner of a party. It is so goddamn prevalent that men just hook up with women, they philander around, and there's no monogamy and no commitment. So no wonder, because I've seen that, I have that sort of idea of men that they cannot, they cannot and will not commit to you. So I think that's where it comes from at age 22.

That is, that is, makes perfect sense. It's another, and I don't say this from even a moral or religious standpoint, it is another practical argument against the hookup culture.

Oh, totally.

For females, for females.

I could talk about the hookup culture for 10 hours straight and how harmful it is and disgusting and personally offensive. I mean, it's just, it's wrong in every kind of way.

It benefits one of two sexes.

Exactly. Exactly.

But feminists wouldn't even admit that.

No, of course not. Because men and women are the same. Yes. And women want sex as much as men. And no, it's, it's absurd. So I think, again, I spent a lot of time thinking about what, you know, why is this a fear of mine? Because again, I have great parents. I'm not an insecure person, but it totally comes from what I have observed and continue to observe.

That makes perfect sense. Or to put it in another way, now that I understand what you said, you haven't seen, in at least in your generation, monogamy.

No. And this is what fascinates me, and I want to hear what you may have to say about it, although it may depress me, your answer. How are men now? Look, Sure. Let me, let me start by saying I'm not 100% against hookup culture. I'm, uh, I'm 100% against the way that it has manifested itself now where it's so prevalent and there's no monogamy. Okay. So let's say it wasn't that common and, you know, two people hooked up and it didn't work out and they moved on. Fine. But what happens now is that there's no dating at the end of the rainbow. So how are men now going to spend all of their, you know, teens and twenties just philandering and hooking up with random girls and then settle down in their 30s and become married and committed to a woman for the rest of their lives. That's what fixates me. You can't just turn the switch off once you've practiced that for decades.

You can turn the switch off. So, okay, so, well, I'm happy to hear that since the point of the Dennis and Julie podcast is true honesty about life, vulnerability, our favorite word today. So I will tell you, you don't know this, I don't think anybody knows this, maybe my wife knows So I came to late teenagehood and early 20s at the pinnacle of feminism when women, at least at Columbia where I was, didn't shave. I mean, that's how radical.

Oy.

Oy is right. It was more oy for me. But anyway, so I knew, being always religiously oriented, I knew my ultimate aim is to marry, be faithful, and have children and be responsible for a family. The traditional middle-class Judeo-Christian ideal. But since I didn't find somebody that. And I, by the way, in retrospect, I totally understand why I didn't find somebody. I marched to the beat of a different drummer. I always did. The number of girls of my age who wanted to talk about good and evil on a date was not—

logical monotheism, as you said on that one date.

It's hilarious. So I said to myself, listen, I'm going to have fun until I find a wife. And I said this, I was very conscious, I said it to myself. Since men want variety, that is built in, as I quoted, did I quote to you Jordan Peterson last week?

You might. I know you did off the air.

About men sacrifice women to stay with a woman.

Right. Well, multiple women.

Multiple women, right. And I said to myself, I'm going to get this out of my system so that when I'm married, I will never wonder, gee, what was another woman like? What would another woman be like? Or what would fooling around be like? That too. While the male sexual urge remains the same, psychologically, you— I felt, and it was a gamble to a certain extent, because it could have been exactly what you said. Well, you don't— you don't— you're not building your monogamy muscles, right, in that type of lifestyle.

That sort of seems to me like a 'the diet starts tomorrow' kind of mentality.

That makes perfect sense, and I think for a lot of men that may be true. But I knew my goal was marriage and monogamy. I knew that was my goal, right? But I also believed I could sort of get inoculated against playing around, fooling around— we didn't have the term hookup culture— by playing the field, as that— to use the phrase that would have been used in my generation. It's maybe used now too, I don't know. So, and it worked, by the way. I don't, I don't, I never had that, gee, what would it be like to just pick up a woman one night and, and, you know, be with each other? By the way, since we're really opening up, I do want to say this, and I think, and I'm saying it not to be self-revealing, but because I advise it to to young people who ask me. If they don't ask me, I don't advise it. But I believe that all things considered, intercourse, specifically sexual intercourse, should be reserved for the person you marry.

Do you think it— if you know you're going to marry that person, is it okay before you get married?

Look, it's not I'm not preaching religion here, I'm just preaching practicality. But I think that there is— if you keep one thing holy, it makes a big difference. So as it turns out, that's pretty much the way I lived, even though I was with a fair number of women. But I, I drew a line.

So before you marry someone and you're dating them, but you know that they're the one Would you endorse having premarital sex with that person as long as, again, you know that person?

Well, endorse—

person you'll marry?

Yeah, I— let's put it this way. I don't have an issue with it.

Right.

I, I— or do you think it should just be after you get married? If it's the person you know you'll marry. First of all, like in Judaism, engagement is the same as marriage. There you, you, you have committed adultery if you are engaged. And go with someone else. But look, I need to always distinguish between me and my religion. My religion would not say fine. I want to make that clear. But I don't have an issue. I really just need to make this really clear. I think people should reserve intercourse for the person— that's why I said whom they'll marry. So then, well, what if they break up? So you are not a virgin at marriage. I can't say that that ruins my day. If you reserved it for the person you were engaged to marry and the engagement broke up, I don't consider you having done something particularly sinful. A lot of religious viewers and listeners won't agree with me, And I respect that, but I would— what I don't have great respect for is the argument that there aren't gradations of sin. And I've argued— it's one of the few religious things I've argued with listeners who say a sin is a sin. And I remember the example I always use. You mean somebody who molests a child in God's eyes is the same as someone who steals a stapler from the office? I think, well, yes, they're both rebellion against God. I know their answers. I, I— it just makes God look silly to me.

It does. You said to me fairly recently at one of our great Shabbat dinners, and it really stuck with me, you said— now I'm probably going to get this wrong, so correct me— um, all sins, all evil is sin, but not all sins are evil, right? That is That is an excellent point. I never thought of it that way.

Yep, that— well, that's my task, to try to clarify life for people on the subject. And by the way, this would be an example: premarital sex is not evil. It, it may be a sin. Well, exactly. I mean, it's evil if there's rape. There's evil— by the way, there's not only evil if there's rape, there's evil if there's trickery. If a man implies commitment or chance of commitment—

well, that is extremely common.

Well, okay, well, that, that, and that goes from sin to evil. That's— tricking people is evil. I mean, if he, if he's forthright, then, you know, and she says, that's fine with me, it's a non-issue, I don't, I don't have any expectations, okay, great.

It really is striking how much people, I'm sorry to say it this bluntly, have sex with one another and call, I mean, they just, they treat it like it's so meaningless.

Well, and okay, so if it's, if it worked out, why are the depression rates among young women the highest ever recorded in American history?

Yep. And what's fascinating about that, this is, this is the puzzle that I set up for a lot, a lot of my friends. I go, we are the most, not only the most privileged and advantaged generation in American history. We are the most privileged and advantaged generation in the history of the world.

That's right.

That's ever lived. We're also— we have unprecedented access to technology and capital. We're the wealthiest generation. We're the most— and I know they love this one— we're the most racially and ethnically diverse generation in American history. We're the most educationally credentialed. And yet we're the most medicated. We're the most depressed. We seem to run towards things that deter social contact, like going on social media, drinking, using drugs, masks. I mean, it's, it's unbelievable. The paradox, by the way, one of the things, and we talked about it before the show, um, that I want to talk to you about is drug use, specifically weed. Another thing I really noticed in college, in addition to the hookup culture, is how weed has not taken the place of drinking. Drinking is still very common, but it has really become, um, heavily used alongside recreational drinking. You said you had thoughts on weed use. I'm interested to hear them.

Well, my, my longtime listeners know, know this. It's one of the few times that I acknowledge that what I'm about to say is at least half emotion and half concrete reality. I hate weed. I hate it. I hate it more than I hate alcohol. I don't even hate alcohol. I hate dependence on alcohol. But I hate weed because I saw what it did to friends, and it always betokened to me escape. And I never I have no inclination— maybe through a movie. I escape real life in a movie for an hour and a half, but the moment the movie's over, you're back. Yeah. But it's also— I believed— that's why I didn't take drugs, harder drugs than marijuana. And remember, in my generation, marijuana was licorice compared to what it is today. It was candy.

Why is that?

It's so much heavier today.

Oh, interesting.

Oh, it's so much more. And you have the you know, other stuff put it, it's much— I don't know, what do they say, 5 times stronger, 10 times stronger? I believe that. So that's not inconsequential. But I didn't— I hated it in my generation. It— when I was with a guy who— let's— unless the person was an alcoholic, if I was with a guy who had a drink, there was no way to tell he had a drink. I knew immediately if somebody was stoned.

That's, that is true.

Why don't people recognize the difference? I've, I asked this question on my program because a lot of people don't agree with me, which is, you know, the way it goes. But I asked them, so I'm curious, if you were told you the pilot on your next flight is going to have a martini before the flight or a joint, which would you prefer?

You are great. I was thinking about this the other day. It's a little off topic, but not really. You are so great at posing questions like that that are either-or, with scenario-based questions. That is, that is a huge strength of yours, and it's— it paints such a great picture in your mind. Of course I'd rather have a drink than a joint.

Well, that's right. Well, by the way, it is a strength I don't take credit for. It's a gift. But it's so helpful in explaining life.

Oh, it gets right— I want to emulate that.

It's like thinking about the animal or the stranger.

Yes.

Who would you save first?

Yes.

That's how I started with this.

Just so the viewers know, Dennis asked this question in speeches. If a dog were drowning in your pool, your dog, that's key, or a human being, which one would you— a stranger, a stranger— which one would you jump in to save first?

Right.

And You say that it's about a third, a third, a third?

Well, it's a third, a third, a third, their dog, a third the stranger, and a third don't know.

Oh my God.

But that, by the way, that has been— I started asking this 40 years ago.

And have you noticed the numbers?

There's no change.

Oh, fascinating.

It's a third, a third, a third then, and a third, a third, a third now.

To what do you attribute that?

I'll tell you what I attribute to asking the question.

Okay.

I know exactly why it came up. You'll love this.

Okay.

I was on a flight and I used to talk to people next to me more. Now I do more work, but I always talk a little to somebody next to me. It's the right thing to do. So I was— what was it? Oh yes. It was in the day where you actually got meals on airplanes. Long lost in economy class.

Were they good?

They weren't good, but they were a meal. I mean, which said something about the way they looked at clients then, at passengers. Better, more, more sensitive. We're happy to have you on board. Anyway, so the woman next to me, a middle-aged woman, and I'm in my 20s, and she has a vegetarian meal. So Figured, look, I can't read while I'm eating. I might as well talk to her. So I say, look, I saw her meal. I go, are you vegetarian? She said yes. So I said, I'm just curious if you'd like to tell me, why are you a vegetarian? And she said, because I don't think people have the right to kill animals for food. And I respect that. I don't have an issue. But she didn't stop there. Oh, she changed my life. She said, who are we to say we're superior to animals? Oh Lord, more valuable than animals. So I almost choked on my meal, my non-vegetarian meal. So I said to her, wait a minute, I totally respect part one, but I You're telling me that we're not more valuable than animals? She said, well, yes, who are we to say that? It's arrogant. So I said, and this is when I first came up with it, I said, well, then I'm just curious, if an animal and a person were drowning, who would you save first? And I remember vividly there was silence, and I'm thinking Holy crow, you got to her. She, she's silent. And then I said, uh, um, did you hear my question? She said, yes, I'm thinking. And I think you're thinking she's thinking, what the hell is there to think about?

I know.

And that's, that is how it came up that I started asking that question.

Did she eventually answer?

I don't remember. It's a good, good point. I think she was just torn. I don't think she gave it to me.

Oh God, the fact that you're— to your point, that she would even have to think about it.

No, no, of course, that's right.

Right. Secular atheism.

So anyway, we got to that because you liked my doing this, which is good, asking the or, or, or question. So back to marijuana. So would you rather your pilot have a joint or a martini prior to the flight? I don't think there's a question. But I went further on my radio show. This is a long time ago, and I said that with regard to marijuana— what it is, one second, this is— oh yes, I said, I want you to know, folks, I rather my teenage child, my teenage son, had a teenager then, And I said, I'd rather my teenager smoke cigarettes or cigars than joints. And normally most of my audience agree with me. I would say every single caller disagreed with me, every single one. Now I'm not saying every single listener did, but of those who called, every single one disagreed and they thought I was nuts. You know, Dennis, you can get cancer from tobacco. You don't get cancer from marijuana. And I thought, wait a minute. First of all, if they get cancer, it's 1 out of 3, even according to the American Lung Association. 2 out of 3 don't. 1 out of 3 is a lot, I fully acknowledge it. Truth is truth. But I am more worried about their losing their minds at 18 than I am losing their life at 60.

So I never drank or used drugs in high school. As I said, I literally locked myself in my room for 4 years with the exceptions of when I went to swim practice. In college, I did both. I drank starting freshman year, and then starting senior year, I used weed. And I have to tell you, I had a real come to Jesus. I mean, I never— I didn't overuse it, you know, it wasn't a problem. But I had a real come to Jesus about it actually a few months ago, kind of around the time of my graduation, where I thought, you know what, this is— as bad as drinking may be, this feels different. And I'm not proud of this habit of mine, or this— not to say it was a habit, this recreational use. Because what I found was, when I did— so I would take edibles. When I took edibles, I was so much calmer, and it was the one way that I could put my mind at ease. As you know, I have a very active mind. I'm hard on myself. I'm always thinking about what should I be reading, what should I be doing, and that was just the one way that I could just shut that off. But then what scared me was the next morning I would wake up and I would go, what did I have for dinner last night? Or did I watch TV? And then I'd look at my, you know, computer search history and okay, I watched, you know, Real Housewives for an hour and a half, but I don't remember anything in that episode. So when I was in it, it was fun and it was relaxing, but then when I was out of it, it was like my life had just gone dark. And I remember seriously, I had to come to Jesus and I thought, no, this is not how I'm going to live my life. A, it could be doing brain damage to me at a young age, which I do not want. And B, it's a substitute for social contact. It's a, it's, it's a way to run away from your feelings. And I don't want to live my life this way. I don't want to be 70 years old and look back and not have any memories because my fun in life was, you know, getting high on my couch and watching a TV show. So I happen to agree with you. You have all helped to build MyPillow into the amazing company that it is today. Now, Mike Lindell, inventor and CEO, wants to give back exclusively to to you listeners. For a limited time, you will save $50 on MyPillow's percale sheets. That's right, $50 if you order now while supplies last. Please take notice that these percale sheets are different from their Giza sheets. With an imported 250 thread count, they are breathable with a cool, crisp feel and durable, yet still machine washable, plus easy to care for. Call 1-800-566- 6745 and use the promo code Hartman, H-A-R-T-M-A-N, or go to mypillow.com and click on the radio listener square and use the promo code Hartman. This offer will not last long, so order now with the promo code Hartman at mypillow.com for this radio exclusive offer on percale sheets. Now, with regard to the—

by the way, yeah, I watched one episode of Real Housewives Oh, you did? Oh, I try everything. I even did, uh, what is it called? Naked and Alone? Naked—

oh, I don't know that one.

Naked and Afraid.

Dennis, which, at which franchise? Which—

I know, I thought— I think it was Orange County.

Oh my gosh.

It's what popped up. The only time I watch TV is— and it's very rare then— is in a hotel room. I find television—

I've always said I don't really watch TV with the exception of Housewives.

I'm not condemning people who do. I think it's great to have have some silly time consumer. We need that. But the problem for me, at least Naked and Scared, is that right, Sean? Naked and Afraid. Naked and Afraid is interesting. How do people put up with being unclothed in the, you know, the Guatemalan jungle? I mean, I mean, that's at least interesting. But the dialogue on Real Housewives, I think I rather— I know, no, I don't think. I'd rather just be in a silent room and let my brain entertain me.

Right.

I couldn't believe how vapid it was. Maybe it was just that episode.

Well, I have thought a great deal about why I watch these shows. I don't watch them often. But you know, every two weeks—

You don't have to make an excuse. Oh no, no, no, I'm just— So you know, even in my eyes, I'm just specifically asking, did you find it interesting?

No, I'm, I'm not making an excuse. I, I think like you, I think it's good to have some, you know, time when you turn your brain off. But just seriously, I was trying to think, you know, why do I— why do these shows appeal to me? I don't know if this makes any sense, but when I watch Real Housewives, especially when I watch like across different shows, different cities rather. I love seeing— I'm fascinated by how much of reality TV is reality. And it's sort of interesting for me to like watch their behaviors and, and watch the different storylines unfold across seasons. And sometimes storylines will repeat, and, and I— it's sort of my way of decoding or unpacking what reality TV really is. For instance, I've noticed— so I, I've been on Real Housewives of New York City, that's been my kind of kick recently, and they recycle storylines every few seasons. Here are the following storylines. Number one, it's that there's infidelity in a marriage or relationship.

Okay, doesn't help you, which doesn't—

how exactly apropos of our conversation, doesn't help me. There's obviously frenemies, and then sort of the alliances reform, and people who were not friends two seasons ago are now friends in this season. And then, you know, it kind of shifts. So they shift the friendships a lot. And I honestly— well, this is especially kind of putrid— they have a lot of, they have a lot of storylines about whether people are secretly gay. Really? Yes. And I find that to be fascinating.

People, or mostly men, or the women? Well, I think about the women in Beverly Hills.

Hell's, they had one about one of the women being gay, and they have a lot about like people's husbands being gay. And that's fascinating to me because again, I kind of zoom out and I go, wait a minute, so this Bravo Real Housewives franchise is run by Andy Cohen, who is a gay man, super left-wing. All he does is post on his Instagram about how awful the GOP is, etc. And yet he puts these women on television who fight with each other, who spread rumors about each other. How is that women supporting women? He puts these storylines where people are accusing one another of being gay or being unfaithful. And it's just for that reason, I don't know how eloquent I'm being, just to be able to zoom out and see the politics of all of this and see the way that it works. That's endlessly fascinating.

Very interesting.

It's not—

I'm going to look this guy up.

Andy Cohen.

Yeah, that's very interesting. There's no question he would have an agenda. If he's a left-wing gay, I mean, if he's right-wing gay, you know, like Dave Rubin, my friend, right?

He's going to be a father soon, right?

No, he just, he had his baby, sent me a picture.

Oh, is it twins?

Well, the second one is coming next month.

Oh, so there are two.

So I got it. So for those watching, listen, Dave Rubin is very well known. He, he started out with, uh, with quite leftist and then started to think clearly. And I mean that literally. I don't think you can think clearly and be a leftist.

You cannot.

You cannot. And so he's a very major force for America and conservatism. He has a terrific man he's married to, also named Dave. So Dave Rubin and David married. So it's Dave and David. My wife and I are very close with them. I was just with them in Miami again, and they just had the first of their two kids. So he sent me a picture of him bottle feeding his baby. I've never seen Dave Rubin this serious in my life.

This serious, you said?

Serious.

Oh, how sweet.

He is so transformed overnight, as any parent is. It's just, it's completely, it's so, that's utterly transformative. Anyway, I only mentioned him to say a gay leftist as opposed to a gay conservative would have an agenda to promote the idea that gay is far more prevalent than it is.

Oh, that's interesting. See, I thought about it in a different way. I thought, my God, this is so— this is so putrid and just so classless to, you know, either like make people who are in the closet come out of the closet on national television or accuse people of being gay with— it's just, it's, it's foul.

You know why it might have been done?

Yeah. And I just thought, how, how, how does square up that someone who proclaims to care about women and, you know, women getting along with each other and supporting one another make millions off of women fighting on TV and tearing each other down, and then someone who's gay would make millions off of this storyline that seems to be recycled across different franchises that people are secretly gay.

So how many episodes have you watched?

Oh, I have watched many.

Okay, fine.

Hundreds and hundreds of episodes.

Oh, really?

Oh yes.

I didn't know this about you.

Yes, across the different franchises.

This is hilarious. To me. I love to know what the people do. That's completely super—

I know, this is my superficial—

No, no, I love it. So hundreds? Oh yeah, of all the cities, of all of them.

I know all of the Housewives. So many. And by the way, you know, I'm talking about like how I love to zoom out and see the politics and how it works. There are some really funny moments and characters on these shows. I call them characters even though it's reality TV, but just in the kind of fun and playful sense, their characters. So I have some, some favorites that I love to go back to.

So I am curious, why, why would these women so often have fights?

A, it's women. Women do that. B, it's reality TV, and they know that fighting is what sells.

What will they fight over?

Um, someone was—

I can't imagine. Yeah, real husbands of Long Island and the guys fighting with each other.

No. Well, it's really funny with those shows because you see the women fighting and then there are the housewife husbands and they're like— and sometimes they'll go on these like couple trips as a franchise and the men are so funny. Like sometimes the camera will pan to them and they're just laughing and going like, oh God, what are the women fighting about now? It's hilarious. To see the juxtaposition. Like, the women are like tearing each other's eyeballs out. Oh, over what?

Anything?

Oh my God, I can't even think.

Like, you mean some perceived slight? Yeah, that's what it is, a perceived slight.

What did I say? A non-racial equivalent of a microaggression, right?

Right. Some— okay, that's so interesting.

So that's— what is your, like, when you turn your brain off— I know that you love cigars, you love photography, but is there any kind of Real Housewives equivalent for you?

Well, so if I were to watch TV, there is one show I'd watch.

What?

Forensic Files.

I love Forensic Files. I love—

so here's the killer. So Forensic Files is close to addictive.

It is.

And they're brilliant. When they end— for those who don't know, these are true, all true names, everything, how they solved murders. That's what it is. Using forensics. So they're brilliant at the— as soon as one episode ends, they don't go to a commercial break. They go right into another episode.

Oh, so they—

and so when I'm on the road and like, Dennis, it's 2:00 AM, it's time to go to bed, you gotta watch Forensics Files. So what you do is— no, no, no, no, no, that's not my point at all, because I fall asleep without TV. All the time.

Lucky you.

I am lucky. What I do, in fact, I have to turn it off to fall asleep. The second the episode is over, I turn it off because I will not be able— you know, yes, they'll hook me in.

I wouldn't be able to do that. I would be so curious to see what the next story is.

No kidding, of course.

But what is—

no, I did not know about Forensic Files before, Sue. That's correct. But my ultimate, the non-brainers are I could read reviews on audio equipment and photography equipment for hours.

Oh, I know. Trust me, I've been to your house enough and hung out with you guys enough to know.

I don't read about cigars. So cigars is not a time consumer. Cigar is just a pleasure.

By the way, this is off topic, but I thought of it as you were discussing Dave and David Rubin and how they have two—

It's David. It's actually Dave Rubin and David Janet.

Oh, okay. Yeah, I think it's fun to call them Dave.

Yeah, no, no, no, they probably don't like it. Yeah.

Um, I don't know. I think I told you this. It'd be shocking if I didn't tell you this. I was born out of a surrogate. Did you know that?

You know, I know you told me, but I— it shows how little significance I attached to it that I forgot, right?

Well, I just—

why was that, if I may ask?

So I have two older sisters, and my second oldest sister Gina, who we've talked about on this show before, has very severe autism. And I think that, um, for health reasons, it was not safe for my mother to carry another child. So so somebody else did. So someone else did. That's why there's such a huge age gap between, um, my two older sisters and me. There's, I'm 9 years and 8 years respectively. So I was born out of a surrogate. And what's interesting is in 1999 when I was born, I, I read this the other day, I have to double fact check it, but it, it seemed the source seemed legit. There were only about 2,000 to 5,000 babies in America born from surrogates at the time that I was born. Now it's incredibly common. Now, you know, gay couples use surrogates. Kim Kardashian and Khloe Kardashian— who, and I know you know who those two are because they wanted to—

you mentioned on another podcast, why did they use surrogates?

Because they don't want to ruin their bodies. They want someone else to carry their child.

So I assume they'll bottle feed too.

I have started to think more recently about my surrogacy because it actually makes sense to me that it was something that you had kind of forgotten, because it is relatively insignificant. It doesn't really say a lot about who I am, but I've started to think about it more recently because it really is— it's a miracle, I think, that I'm here as a result of this. And one of the things I love about my parents, especially my mom, is growing up, she always— she never tried to hide that from me. She always told me—

parents—

yes, yes, I'm 100% related to both of my parents. But they never— I think one of my, my grandparents said to my mom, you can't tell the baby that.

By the Anyway, I wouldn't care if it wasn't.

Right. Of course.

Even that wouldn't matter to me. I have an adopted child.

Of course. Of course. But my mom always made it such a beautiful part of my origin story. And she really made me feel special because she was like, you know, you're not supposed to be here. You're really only here because of the miracle of modern science. And so I don't know. I think especially as I'm getting older and I'm going into this professional realm and I'm thinking about my life and what I can contribute to the world, I'm starting to see my— just the fact that I'm here sitting with you is kind of a miracle, really. I mean, I'm kind of not supposed to be here. It would not have worked out.

You wouldn't have been here in the previous age.

I would not have been here.

So you wouldn't have been here through all of human history till, till, till like the 1990s.

And there are many states actually I think still where surrogacy is illegal.

Is that right?

It's actually interesting. I was having a debate with someone about abortion when Roe was overturned, and they were saying, you know, I was supporting Roe being overturned, and of course this person who I was talking with did not support it. And this individual said to me, I thought it was fascinating, well, Julie, you were born out of a surrogate, you know, why are you, why are you against them overturning Roe? Because what they could do next is they could—

no, you were for overturning Roe.

Oh, excuse me. Yes. Why are you before them overturning Roe, this person's argument was that next they could try to outlaw surrogacy. And my response to them was, yeah, basically they were trying to say, right, I get it, so go on. And my response to them was, actually, I think that surrogacy is overwhelmingly a pro-life thing because you're bringing into the world a life that wouldn't have existed. It really doesn't, to me, have anything to do or correlate with abortion because with abortion you're trying to end a life. With surrogacy, you're trying to bring one about that wouldn't have existed. What, what do you think about that?

It's an odd argument. Why, why would they outlaw surrogacy? I mean, if I, I didn't even know that there were states that did it. I, I, yeah, right. What is their argument?

I think it's similar to the organ donation argument, that, you know, if you're using your body, if you're using your body to make money it's, it's inevitably coercive. Like, if someone's poor and they sell their organ, it's— you're really coercing them.

Yeah, but selling your organ is far different than carrying a child.

Exactly right.

And there's something beautiful about carrying a child.

Anyway, I just wanted to hear a conservative's take on abortion— or excuse me, surrogacy.

Uh, uh, How could I be opposed to it? I, I mean, there are couples that, that can't conceive without it. They won't have a child if they don't have a surrogate. Now, my, my first choice is, is adoption because the child's already there, right? And I, I love non-blood love. That's a big part of what makes me who I am because I relied mostly on non-blood love for love in life.

Well, that's what we talked about last time. I love that saying that you have when I said that someone is close like family, and you said actually it would be better to say they're close like friends. You know, if two sisters are close, you should say they're close like friends. Yes, because not all families are close. Well, when that—

most families are not that close, right?

When that person made that argument to me about surrogacy, I just, I thought it was fascinating because so many people on the left— I actually was reading a a study recently where they took like 10 or 20 liberals and put them in a room and 10 and 20 conservatives and put them in a room and they told the liberals, try to answer these questions like you are a conservative.

Oh, that's great. That's great.

And then they said to the liberals, or to the conservatives, excuse me, try to answer these questions as a liberal.

To see how well they understood the other.

Ready? What do you think the results were?

Yeah, oh, I know, I don't even think Yes. We know. I always say that we know what they think. They don't know what we think.

The liberals could not imitate conservatives.

That's right.

They were like, I love the Confederacy. You know, they like wrote these preposterous things.

That's right.

And then of course, you know, conservatives could imitate liberals. And I thought that was so interesting.

Wait, where did you— was this really done?

Yes, it was. I read so much, Dennis. I can't remember where it was, but I'll go home, find it, and next podcast I'll tell you who conducted the study and where it was.

I love it.

But oh no, it's fascinating. And I I thought of that study when that person made the surrogacy argument because A, it's so jumbled. Again, abortion and surrogacy, they don't have anything to do with one another really. And B, and more importantly, liberals so reduce us into cartoon characters. They have no idea what we actually think. They somehow think, oh, you know, conservatives are anti-abortion, so they must be pro only natural ways of bringing life into the world. That was essentially at the heart of that person's argument. They thought, oh, if you know you're against abortion, you should also be against surrogacy because technically surrogacy isn't natural. And again, it's just they reduce us into these bizarre cartoon character villains. Well, it's weird.

Oh, it's, it's worse. It's worse than that. It's, for example, when PragerU was attacked, which is frequent The most common thing is—

Oh, I know this.

Well, what are you thinking? I am curious what you're thinking.

They say, well, you're not a real university.

No, no. Well, that's not cartoonish. I'm just exemplifying the cartoonish thing. That's just— we say at the front page we're not an accredited university.

That's the one I get a lot.

People say, yeah, yeah, so therefore what?

Exactly, exactly.

I mean, by the way, it's worth addressing. It's a very— I do want to address that in a moment. Moment. Their most common is these are the people that lead people to QAnon. So, A, I've never seen QAnon. I don't know anybody affiliated with QAnon. I've literally never seen this. I would not know of it were it not for the left always talking about it.

I had never heard of it.

I still don't know what it is. So here we are, two prominent conservatives.

Yes.

See, calling you a prominent conservative.

I did notice that. That's very kind.

Not coming from your past.

Hopefully one day.

Well, the day has already occurred. So if we don't know two different generations and we don't even know— I don't know. I don't know.

Exactly. I've never met anyone.

But that's the cartoonish.

Right, exactly.

As Obama said, oh, you know, they clutch to their guns and religion, right? Cling. Thank you. Cling. That's cartoonish.

It is. You know, I hate to use this terminology of our side versus their side. I don't think it's helpful, but nevertheless, I'm going to use it here. I just feel that our side is so much more nuanced. You know, you—

Oh, and they claim that they're the nuanced ones. They claim that they're the nuanced ones. No, no, no, it drives me crazy.

Even look at it, even look at some of the— sorry to keep bringing it up, but even look at something like this. We are both aligned that overturning Roe is, you know, a good thing and that having surrogacy alive and well is a good thing. That shows nuance. What the left attempts to do with every issue is paint all of it with one broad brush and go, this is, you know, 100% right or 100% wrong.

Any, you know, tampering with the way every one of their positions, right, every single one is the non-nuanced, right? They're against guns. So I ask, I ask my Jewish relatives and friends, you really, you would like guns confiscated? So I have a question for you. Do you, if it were up to you and you could go back in history And all the Jews of Europe had guns or didn't.

Exactly.

What would you, what, what, what would be your position?

And what they don't understand too, if we want to make the historical argument, is that many blacks in the South who were victims of Jim Crow and the KKK, they had guns too and they wanted guns.

Black women are the single biggest increase in groups getting guns.

Candace Owens, I was listening to her the other day. She talks about her grandfather a lot and how her grandfather was, worked, was a sharecropper or worked on a— in sharecropping somehow. And he— the KKK would like fire bullets into the grandfather's house, and he'd shoot right back at them because he had a gun.

Good man.

And also on the abortion argument, this is what's endlessly fascinating to me. Ida B. Wells, who is the, you know, prominent abolitionist, she was pro-life. All of the, you know, all of—

really a lot of feminists 100 years ago were and pro-abortion is a bit odd.

It is a bit odd.

Or that the anti-abortion are racist when the anti-abortion crowd is the one that wants tens of millions of Blacks to have been born.

I know.

How do you resolve that?

Exactly. The ones who are pro-life are supposedly the white supremacists.

I know, I know.

How the hell does that make sense?

It's truly sick. By the way, on this attack, I don't love it. I'm being sarcastic. Think it's so absurd. Well, it's not a real university. Okay, it is a real university. This is my answer. It's not what we write. This is Dennis's answer. We are a real university. We're not accredited to give degrees, right? But if a university is a place where you learn intensely, we are. If you watch our 500 5-minute videos— forget the fireside chat, forget everything else— just the 500 videos and read the, uh, the list of books accompanying them, you will have a better education than virtually anywhere in America. Not, not in STEM— science, technology, engineering, math, correct? We don't teach botany.

Wasn't PragerU originally, when it was you and Allen were coming up with it, didn't you originally have the idea that it would be a real accredited university for about 5 seconds.

Yeah, well, an hour, right?

Oh, it's so much better that— I mean, no, no, so many more people this way.

When I spoke in Romania, it's all these young people who were so excited that I came there. I thought if we had a brick-and-mortar university, they wouldn't know my name. Uh, we're getting across. We got a billion views. You don't get a billion views at a university. Got 1 billion views on the internet.

This is a question a little bit unrelated, but it somehow— you're presenting PragerU videos made me think of it. Has there ever been anything that you have said on the air in your 40 years that you regret?

Yes, there is. So I regret the first time that I got COVID. You're— it plays with your mind the first few days. It's fog. It's called the COVID fog. Not everybody has it. Some people have loss of taste. Some people have—

yeah, I've had that.

I had it. Yeah, the first time I didn't realize I had it. So to show how healthy I was, I went on the air very quickly from my house I didn't come into the studio with COVID And I said that I had all through COVID, I was hugging people, 100% true. And it was a non-issue. And that, you know, ultimately I even wanted COVID for the antibodies or whatever it was. Anyway, that was stupid. What I meant to say was I didn't care if I got it. Got it right, but I wasn't nuanced, and so that of course got a lot of play.

They jumped on that totally, right? I think even Rolling Stone, Washington Post wrote a whole article on it. Yeah, right.

I mean, so that's a pretty good track record though when you speak 15 hours a week spontaneously.

So that's really the only thing that you can—

I could think of. Yes, I think it is the only thing.

But see, even there, that's good because you don't fundamentally regret what you said, it's how you said it.

Correct.

Which matters, of course. It's not just something to toss to the side, but it's not like you once had a view and you were advocating for something and then 10 or 20 years later, well, you look back and go, oh God, that's different from did I ever change my mind, right?

I actually supported, uh, not passionately, but when the subject would come up, I supported minimum wage.

And why? What were your arguments for that?

My— I remember my argument. I said, the conservatives are against— I said it on the air— conservatives are against minimum wage. This was the 1990s when a great increase in American productivity and so on, and unemployment was low, And I said, but it looks like we're thriving and we still have a minimum wage. So I come to every position I come to, to the best of my ability on the basis of reality. If you do, you're not a leftist. You could be a liberal, you could be a conservative. So I was wrong. And but so that's an example. But I don't regret having said it. That was your question to me. Right.

Well, I think a lot because again, as everyone knows, I am embarking on this professional conservative on-air journey. I start full-time with Salem in a month. And I think to my— I literally was thinking about it this morning on my run. See how I dropped in there that I was on a run? That was—

How much do you run?

I don't. That's why I think it's funny that I just said that. I've gotten into it in the past few days. Actually, for the past 3 or 4 days, I've been running pretty consistently. But before that, I don't think I ran once this summer. So I just had to laugh at myself there that I said that.

You were an athlete.

Oh, totally. And I think a large reason why I haven't really exercised consistently is because, as we've discussed, I'm so burnt out. I view exercising as oppressive. I go back to my swimming days when I would have to stare at the bottom of the pool and count the tiles for 2 hours and swim my brains out, you know. I just, I, I can't. I hate going to the gym. I hate any kind of forced exercise.

We need to do that subject together, burnout.

Yes, we touched on it a few episodes ago, but it's worth expanding.

By the way, this is the joy of doing this with you. I don't remember any episode that I've done. I asked Alan, what, what did we do last week on the Happiness Hour? And then he has the list for the last 22 years.

Well, even today I brought in the— well, I, I lost my copy unfortunately, but I grabbing your Genesis commentary.

Where would you have lost your car?

I don't know. It's so sad. I have torn my house apart for it, and I can't find it.

Did you take it out to a restaurant?

I mean, the only place I've taken it is here.

It's very odd.

Maybe a liberal stole it.

Did you fall over your car?

Yeah, maybe a liberal came into my house and stole it.

If a liberal stole Genesis, I'm very happy. But you marked it up. That's what's so sad.

I know, but you know what? Okay, so I buy a new copy and I reread it and I mark it up again. Big whoop, you know. I was— I want to finish my point because I don't want to leave the viewers hanging. It's kind of odd.

That was exactly what Sean Westford was saying.

I'm sure it was. I was saying, I was thinking on my run, haha, this morning, I'm embarking on this big professional journey. Hopefully I am on air for as long as you have been on air, God willing, I thought, you know, am I going to change my views? Will I always be as conservative as I am now? You know, in 20 years, am I going to rewatch these podcast tapes and think differently? And the answer is, I'm certainly open to changing my mind. And I'm sure like you on some things, I will, you know, evolve. But I really don't doubt that the core of my beliefs are going to stay the same.

It would shock me.

I feel so solid.

See, I'll tell you why. By the way, I want people to understand why it would shock me.

Mm-hmm.

So you came to these views because they make sense.

Oh, exactly.

So things don't stop making sense.

Exactly. That's— and that's what I thought this morning.

You didn't come to them emotionally.

Things that make sense one day are just not going to Right, making sense.

That's right.

And I just, I mean, I love America so much. I just know I'm never going to stop believing in and fighting for America. Certainly, you know, if America continues to go down the path that it is now, I may not be too happy with it. But the, the real America, I, I will never ever falter from trying to protect and advocate for that.

And certainly the American value system.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. Your best guess. The most unique value system ever proposed.

Sean whispered in my ear— well, he doesn't whisper in my ear. Sean yelled in my ear, Dennis, have your views changed in 40 years?

Well, that was kind of what I was getting at with the question.

Well, no, well, that's very different than do I regret anything.

Fair enough.

Yeah, I don't regret changing my mind on air. People actually respect that. But if one were to read what I wrote 40 years ago, I wrote my first book more than 40 years ago, in my, my early 20s. I would have had to change as a person or stop thinking clearly to have changed my views. My views are not ideological, they're logical.

I love that line. That is so important Yeah, because when people, you know, I'll have people at school and they, I think they have an impression of my views or my job is 100% political or ideological. And I really don't view it that way. I just view my beliefs as the core of who I am and just my value system outside of the realm of the political. I apply these values to the realm of the political. It's not.

That's right.

Yeah.

So a guy came over to me. I don't know. You'll know if you heard this story, but yes, I will with my memory. My— I don't know if I've told it on the air. About 3, 4 years ago, prior to lockdowns, I never say prior to COVID, prior to lockdowns at the Philadelphia airport. I remember where it was even. A guy comes over to me about, I'd say he's about 30 years old, and if I think a guy is handsome, he must be really handsome because most men don't think of other men about how they look. He was my height, but certainly thinner. He was 6'4" like I was because I remember when I look at someone eye to eye, it's shocking.

Yes.

And good-looking and and walks over to me and goes, "Just want to say how much I appreciate your work. Thank you." I detected the tiniest accent, truly tiny. So I said, "May I ask where are you from?" He says, "Norway." I go, "Wow." And so I said, "Really? To be honest, I didn't know there were any conservatives in Norway." And he said, Dennis Prager said, I don't know if I'm conservative. I, I just know what makes sense. That was the best possible answer I had.

It's so interesting that you bring that up because I had a discussion with someone, a classmate of mine, who I actually asked if I could talk about him a bit on the show. So I'm going to really talk about him in vague terms. He's from a country in Africa and I was talking to him about politics and he's kind of asking me about America and et cetera. And he had so, then he kind of started talking about his take on the happenings in our country. And I said to him, "Wow, you know you're conservative, right?" Because he was just saying such logical, sensible things. And he had that same reaction where he said, said, this is conservative. This is just—

that's right.

This just makes sense. This is just the way life is. And yes. And I thought to myself, boy, first of all, what a feather in our cap, really, to— that people who are sort of outside of this realm just don't even see our ideas as conservative. They just see them as common sense. But also, it just shows how politicized things in America have become, that we even call common sense views conservative. It's, it's because even like people will say to me, oh, Julie, you're very conservative. And I'm like, well, I'm pro-police. Is that really a conservative take? Isn't that just a excellent no-blank Sherlock take?

You know, yes, it's a no-blank Sherlock take. I don't know what of our positions isn't right. The police is a perfect example.

How is that conservative?

I think more police, the bottom line, with all the risks of everything, it is much better than worse. More innocent people will die, be beaten, be raped, the fewer police there are. That's either a fact or a lie. Which one is it? And if you think it's a lie, You're out of your mind. It's not a matter of you have an opinion. You're an idiot, right? Defund police is idiocy. It's not wrong. It's idiocy.

And I think it's evil.

Oh, well, of course, because it leads to evil. Yes. That's the— I would like to know what position we take, that you don't want children at 5 to be told that they may not be a boy or a girl.

Great.

That's conservative. Well, if it, by the way, if it is conservative, what a coup for conservatism.

Exactly.

Boy, it's like when people say to me, oh, the only people who hold that view are Christians. Well, I know I'm a Jew and I hold the view, but it doesn't matter. My answer is, if you're right, what a credit to Christians.

You know, I saw a post on Instagram the other day, which again, I feel like we circle back to this every podcast. I have done a great job of staying off of. I've really really followed up on my commitment to get off of social media. But I saw this post, and it was about the debate going on right now that you just mentioned in schools. You know, do we teach 5-year-olds that there are no genders, or do we let them be innocent 5-year-olds? And one of my classmates at Harvard, unfortunately, posted this— this— a picture of a woman holding up a sign. I believe it was at a protest. And the woman's sign said, "I don't care about the Bible. I'm not a part of your book club. Stop trying to bring your book club everywhere to American life." And I'm like, "What?

How?" Why is that the only book you can't bring to American life?

And also—

So I could bring, I could, you know, I could bring Ibram X. Kendi. Oh gosh, but I can't bring Isaiah.

Well, first of all, yes. And second of all, they think that the point that I was trying to make is they think that our advocating for preserving children's innocence is somehow tied in with the Bible. They some— like, they somehow—

well, as I said, if it is, it's a credit to the Bible.

Or they somehow think— I should phrase it this way— they somehow think fighting against this gender indoctrination in schools is religious. Again, I don't I don't really think that's particularly religious. I just think that's common sense.

That was what the guy from Norway said.

So is he single?

No.

See, look, you have rubbed off on me.

And I wasn't— yes, I love that. The fact that I even just asked that question shows that you've rubbed off on me. I know. Oh my God. I take 100% credit for that.

I can't believe I just asked that. My mother watching this is going to like jump up and down and do an Irish jig. Hearing that I just asked if that guy was single. I swear my mom and Dennis are in cahoots with one another because the only other person in my life who brings up marriage and dating as much as Dennis is my mom.

She does?

Just be honest. How much is she paying you? Just be honest.

I can't say. It's one of these undisclosed agreements. By the way, that is a credit to your mom. My, my whole article after my younger son's wedding, Aaron's wedding, was— the title was, 'What gives you greater, greater joy?' Oh, I remember this. Your child graduating college or getting married? But most people will say getting married, but they don't raise their children with that, right? The children think all the parents' joy comes from from graduating college and ideally a prestigious college.

No, my parents are in the minority among parents of my friends.

Oh, clearly.

Yes.

But I would like to ask middle class, upper middle class parents this question. You have two, back to our two choices because they're very clarifying, these questions.

Oh, I love them. I'm telling you, I'm going to emulate them.

Right, good. You will. I have no doubt about that. So you have two choices. Your child will graduate college— no, will graduate Harvard.

From college.

You're right. Thank you. Good, good. Will graduate from Harvard, okay, and never get married. Your child will get married and not— and no, not go to college.

Oh yeah, I think a lot of parents would choose the former, unfortunately.

You do?

Yes. Well, let me clarify, parents in, in my universe.

That's fascinating.

Yeah, see, again, this, this goes back to what we were talking about with hookup culture. They— men, okay, maybe you in your day participated in the equivalent of the hookup culture now, but you always had an eye towards monogamy and marriage. You knew that was the end goal and that you could kind of get it out of your system for a few years. I don't I don't think people, men my age have that. No, no, that's right. They don't see—

I don't think women your age do.

No. So, you know, I'm lucky because my parents are delighted that I went to Harvard. You know, they definitely cared about college, but they also very much care about my getting married. So I sort of had those two priorities in life.

You know your parents a lot better than I do.

Yes.

But—

That is true.

If they were posed my question, as much as they want me to—

They would say marriage.

Exactly.

They have their priorities set.

No doubt about that.

They would, yes.

They want both, which is fine. But I'm obviously giving a juxtaposition.

Right, but the problem is that many of my friends' parents and many of the parents in our universe, they only tell their child to focus on college.

By the way, I'll end with, it's a very sensitive issue, but it's one that I do feel strongly about and almost nobody else does except within very religious circles. About keeping intercourse as a holy thing, even if you're secular. I don't— there's a lot of fun to be had in life, and, and yet have a cutoff point that you reserve for the serious relationship, right? I think it's good for both sexes.

Retweet. Remember I taught you that one?

Retweet what I just said. Yes, I didn't tweet it to begin with. I can't retweet it.

Fair enough.

Yeah, you're testing me.

I say that to my dad all the time. I go, retweet what? What are you talking about, this tweet thing?

I'm with your father.

It's a Gen Z thing. Oh, by the way, Sean, you didn't even have to tell me this. You didn't. I, I just thought of it on my own. julie-hartman.com, my website. Sean always has to remind me to tell you guys that. julie-hartman.com. There's an email there that you can email me with thoughts, questions, and we get a lot of them and they're great. The email is julie@julie-hartman.com, and we just made social media accounts. And although we do talk about obsessing too much about social media on this show, there's good social media and there's bad social media.

Exactly.

I do believe that, you know, following our, our stuff will fall into the category of good social media. So our Instagram account is @DennisAndJuliePod. That is also our Twitter account handle. That's @JulieAndDennis. Dennis. Oh God, I put my name first.

I knew you would. Did I predict it? Hey guys, I predicted it! Yes sir, Rick is giving me two thumbs up.

That is before the show said to Rick, you know, Julie wants to change the podcast name to Julie and Dennis, not Dennis and Julie.

And not only that, with Julie much bigger typeset.

I can't believe I just did that. That just played right into your hands. Okay, it is Dennis and Julie Pod, not Julie and Dennis Pod. Hey, you know, it's That is sexist. Why is the man's name first? Huh?

It's completely sexist.

I'm proud of taking that one to HR.

I'm proud of it.

Dennis Julie Pod on Twitter and Instagram.

Have a good week, everybody.

See you next time.

And up on the wind, it's carried over the cities and the plains. You got time, you're on the main base, and everybody wants the same.

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