Dignity

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

You know, one of the biggest differences between The Dennis Prager Show and The Dennis and Julie Show? There's nothing on my desk when it's The Dennis and Julie Show. Wrong!

I actually was about to grab this. Look at this, everyone. You can count on two things happening every single Dennis and Julie.

Yeah, go ahead.

Number one.

Yeah.

Stuff near Prager.

Next.

Number two, at the end of the episode, I go, Dennis, they can follow you on Instagram. And you go, they can? And I go, yes, they can. That's not Dennis Prager. Oh, wow. That's so funny.

Welcome to Dennis and Julie. Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. This is a male-female difference. All right, I have a very, very— it's a 3 very on the word interesting. That's, that's, that's 3 out of 3 because you can't go to 4 verys.

Yeah, that gets odd.

Yeah, it does. I, I just came from another trip. Of course, it's another week, it's another city, and this was Minnesota and I rented a Suburban. I always rent SUVs when possible because I'm so tall and I— it's just, there's no comparison. I can barely squeeze my 6-foot-4 frame into a regular car. But I got a Suburban and that's a very long piece of equipment. Really long.

Yes.

Okay.

And you drive one in LA?

No, I don't. It's a foot shorter, what I drive. That's important. It's the GMC version of the Chevy Suburban. Chevy— I have the GMC version, which is Yukon, and it— and I, I don't have the full size, the extra long like a Suburban. That extra foot caused a problem. I, I was parking in a parking structure next to a car, and I realized I was a little too close. This is not— I'm not proud of the story, but the purpose of the story is important. So I kept backing out and coming back in so as to be further from that car. Yeah, for their sake and my sake. I couldn't get out if I was too close, but I kept getting closer and closer.

Even when you're trying to get further and further?

Okay, why? I have no idea why. I assume because of the remarkable length of this automobile. I can't answer your question. I think I'm a very good driver, but I was pathetic in this matter. I was. I fully acknowledge it. I got so close that it was impossible— the door wouldn't even open. It wasn't even a matter of could I squeeze out. There was— you couldn't You couldn't put a rat through it. I was literally less than an inch from that car.

Oh, wow.

And I, I actually got out of the car through the passenger side. You climbed over? I climbed over. And two wonderful Minnesotans, a couple, a middle-aged couple, lifted me out of the car like the jaws of death. You know, those—

did they know it was you?

No, I don't think so. I'm rather happy about that fact.

How was your day? I lifted Dennis Prager, 6'4", out of a car.

Exactly.

In Minnesota.

Right. It was embarrassing enough.

Yeah.

Okay. So it was clear that whoever owned that car next to mine was going to probably scrape our cars when they left. So I left a note. I am so sorry, I rented a car I'm not used to. I'm, I'm way too close. And please know, uh, here is my phone number. Okay. So as it happens, when we returned— Alan, Alan was with me in Minnesota— when we returned from our lunch meeting, it was somewhat hilarious. Alan climbed through the passenger side.

Oh my God.

And then I directed the tires so that he would not literally a half an inch not go toward the car, but he still scraped it somewhat. He did a great job, but there was no— it was not possible. I was too close. So I, as it happens, I don't know how this happened, there was no scraping on my— on the Suburban. I don't even know why.

Wow.

But there was, uh, there was white paint or whatever it would be. There was scraping on the back of that person's Subaru. I took a picture of it and I left then part 2 of my note. Well, you know, we ended up— I ended up leaving and scraping the back of your car again. You have my number. So I'm going to read to you the text from this person.

Oh no.

Oh no, no, it's not. Oh, it's not.

It could be really good or really bad.

That is exactly correct. You are right. Well, that is interesting. If you've had both, I want to hear. So here. Hi, my name is— and it's a woman's name. I own the Subaru you hit. Hit is a little overstated, but doesn't matter— in the parking garage. My email is— please feel free to either text or email me. Thank you for leaving the note. That was very nice of you. It's very sweet.

Yes.

So here— so I am actually going to do an hour of radio on this question.

So you, by the way, I love this about you. You, you, you take a moment in life like scraping a car and then you'll connect to something macro and big.

This is to me big.

Go ahead.

I, I, I, I have two questions. What percentage of Americans who did exactly what I did would leave a note? Yeah, that's one. And number two, what was— what would the percentage have been in 1960? And I don't, I don't have an answer to either question, but I actually believe if I could have the answer to one question about America, that would be my question.

That it's— it is fascinating. It reveals so much. Sorry, I actually was thinking about doing a show on Timeless about something similar that happened to my parents. But well, it's, it's not similar, but it's, it's a relate— it's related. It's like a first or second cousin to your story. My parents were mailing— you, you look—

I was, I was wondering, a first or second cousin.

Yeah, yeah, related.

So then I realized I won't know till I hear it.

Yes.

Okay.

So my parents were mailing a— about a month ago, they mailed a credit card bill, mailed a check, excuse me, to pay off a monthly credit card bill.

Right.

And it was a sizable amount. Thankfully, it wasn't anything enormous, but it was sizable and significant. And so my parents, especially my dad, they— I mean, he like never misses a deadline ever. You know, we show up to the airport 5 hours before. Yes, literally the day before. So he gets a call from the credit card company saying, Mr. Hartman, you have not paid your credit card bill. And he was like, what are you talking about? I did. I mailed a check a month ago. Turns out someone phished the check out of the mailbox and white-out— white-outed the name of the credit card company and put a fake name and wired that money to her or his bank account instead of the credit card.

You're telling me a whited-out check will be accepted?

Well, I think this person was extremely deft at like getting— whiteout was just a—

Oh, I see.

You know, basically this— they figured out a way to do this.

I get you.

But the point is—

So wait, was it cashed?

Yes, it was cashed. And so my parents are now in this process of trying to get the money back somehow.

So your father left it in the family mailbox, in the mailbox down the street. Oh, in a US post office?

Yes. Down the street from our house. He walked in and mailed it.

Somebody took it out of a US post box?

Yes. And we were talking with our neighbors.

That's scary.

It is scary. My dad, I know my parents watch, he is sitting right now yelling out, thank you, Dennis. It is scary. He told me, you know, Julie, you should really do a show on this because He actually said something really similar to what you just said. I don't think Americans would have done something like this 20 to 30 to 40 years ago. And we were talking with our—

it's a first cousin.

It's a first cousin, maybe a second cousin, but I think a first cousin. Yeah, it's pretty related. We were talking with our neighbors about this and they said that they have noticed that in our neighborhood, that in certain mailboxes there's like silly putty or there's like sticky stuff. On the inside, if you reach down a little bit, you'll feel like sticky stuff. And that's how people catch letters so it doesn't fall all the way down. You mail it, catches the sticky stuff, they pull it out, check if there's a check, and then steal it. But I think my dad—

Sean has a question. What's your question, Sean? Oh my God.

What did he say?

He should be fired.

Well, we know that. Yeah, it's just a matter of time.

Is it— is it whited out or white-outed? He interrupted the show for that.

You know, that's a question that only white supremacists contemplate.

That is such a valid point.

And you know, it makes sense because we have one in our midst. You know the first joke you ever made to me? He? You.

Me?

When I first started working, the first day I worked for you, I'm sitting and I don't know you at all, basically. And you turn to me and you go, my hair's pretty white in person, huh? And I said, yes. And you go, white supremacist white. And I thought it was so funny.

Did I do that?

Yeah, you did.

It was a Dennis Prager. Well, I obviously trusted you very early on.

Yes. I mean, it was not even an issue.

Correct.

Whoever would think that's an issue is deranged. No, no, no.

Correct. So let me understand, who was the check made out to?

The credit card company?

No, no, no. The phony name.

Oh, it was like Angela Lee or it was some generic name, I think, is a pseudonym for—

So who is looking into this?

Okay.

See, that's the interesting thing, because the credit card company couldn't care less.

I think. I think it's the banks or something. Yeah, the bank.

Well, are we insured against— I don't know. Checks.

I don't know. My poor parents are going through this now. I mean, it was, it was a significant amount of money, even if it was $200.

You know, you see that you don't do that to people. I know people will find this offensive, and but I will say it anyway because I don't believe it's offensive, and it's certainly not meant to be. There are many forms of what I call rape. Now obviously the physical rape of a person is the worst, obviously. But what is it about a rape? Let's say the woman— I mean, I know this is really getting into stuff you shouldn't talk about, but it's the stuff you shouldn't talk about that people should talk about, because then you understand life better. What is the worst part of a rape if the woman is not physically hurt, okay, and not threatened with a gun or a knife or something? It's the humiliation. Is that fair to say? You're a woman. Well, the violation—

woman that ever has had to—

right, no, no, I understand, but if you can imagine it, I assume it's the humiliation and degradation and the lack of trust, the, the, the fact you're being, you know, taken advantage of against your will. Every one of those happened to your father. It's not the same. I fully acknowledge that 100 times over, but it's in their, their realm. You— when, when I have— I have not had this, thank God, but very close friends whom you know, their home was burglarized. When you return to your home burglarized, that too is it, it You were violated, you can't trust. It's again, it's in the family. It's not the act obviously of rape, but it's, these are horrible things. Let's say your father didn't care about the money. As you said, $200, it's, you, that is why crime is so awful. People don't understand that we, the liberal and left mindset, usually liberal and left are different. It is so unquote-unquote understanding of crime and criminals.

Yes.

As opposed to loathing crime and criminals.

Absolutely. Yes. And you know, one of— I did a show recently on what I called the doublethink of the modern day, how we're told to— that we must confront our history and remind ourselves of our ugly past. But then people want to tear down statues which would remind us of it. We're supposed to protect and support and amplify women, but there's no such thing as a woman. And one of the examples I gave was we live in a society now where we say, don't judge a criminal for their crime, but you can judge someone for a stupid comment they made on Instagram 10 years ago, which is maybe a bit insensitive.

No, and judge people of 300 years ago for what everybody did 300 years ago.

Exactly. Or yes. Or take a comment like, you know, you're, endless comments that they've exploited with you and take it out of context. We live in a morally confused and sick society. But to your point, yes, there is this bizarre pro-criminal, not just understanding. Yes, understanding they're the victims, but pro-criminal too. I mean, I really think it's kind of extended into pro-criminal.

Yeah, I think you're right, especially if it's a person of color and/or a poor person.

Right. Because if you look at criminals like the people on January 6th who are facing time, they are not given the same understanding as people who—

and did. And many of them, and many of them are not criminals.

Exactly.

Like so. So your story about your dad does bother me. See, it's interesting. You, you know, and I have spent so much time in my 40 years of broadcasting I tell people, most of the time people are offended, they shouldn't be. I say you choose when to be offended. That's my, that's my line.

Okay. Yes.

That's why I'm almost never offended. I don't even know what it really means. But when a crime is committed against you, the vulnerability that you, you feel And again, the degradation, the violation, everything you said about rape and the lack of trust. I mean, I don't know if your father will deposit a check in a mailbox today.

Oh no, he goes up to the post office now and hands it right. But still, even that could be in the—

All right, well theoretically, I mean, it is safer. But the fact is, who thought of that?

I know, I know. I mean, it's sad for a number of reasons. A, that you can't trust your institutions, and that's what's fundamentally happening right now in the United States of America, whether it's the post office or the FBI, the CIA, the police, the way elections are held, people are losing on both sides of the aisle, are losing trust in our institutions. But also, I mean, there are just so many things wrong with it. My father, and even if he didn't work his butt off for money, whatever money he earned, but he did. I mean, he came from, you know, humble background, made, you know, made something of himself. And this is someone just taking advantage again, even whether it's $200 or whatever.

That's right.

It's, it's such an offensive thing.

So that's why I loathe the term social justice, because it has nothing to do with justice.

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The social justice warrior, let's say it was a poor black guy who did the stealing.

Yes.

I have no idea who did it, but I'm just saying, let's say. And your father's a quote unquote rich, which he's not, I understand, but he's upper middle class. Rich white guy. Yeah. The sympathy of social justice goes to the poor black guy. In justice, it goes to your father.

Exactly. Exactly.

Justice and social justice are usually opposed.

Well, it's an oxymoron if you think about it, because the whole point of justice, to your analysis, is that it's individual. Social means beyond the individual. So social justice doesn't make sense because the whole point of justice is carrying it out on an individual, not social level.

Good point.

It's just, I mean, I could, I have on Timeless, I do these episodes where I talk about the contradictions or the doublethink or, of, or the Orwellian nature of modern society. And we see these slogans like gender-affirming care. Gender-affirming care is gender-denying abuse. Okay.

Right. Gender-affirming care would be, oh, especially when you're a boy and you think you're a girl. Well, let me affirm your gender. You're a boy.

Right, exactly.

It's the opposite of gender-affirming. It's the opposite. Exactly the opposite.

And in the case of children, it's abuse.

Orwell would be shocked.

He would be shocked. But the point is we have so many of these examples of these terms, like social justice is another, where it just doesn't capture what really is going on.

And so I wanna get back to, this was, it was a superb, obviously I got riveted by this discussion with your father's check. By the way, I do want, I want you to keep me apprised.

I will.

I'll keep all of you apprised. Because I would like to know What happens in such a case?

Yeah.

Yes.

And it's just a needless headache. My poor, they have so much on their plate and now they have to, you know, chase down this, this money and try to get to the root of things.

So there's no video, obviously. No. No. In that, in that street corner.

No, it's, it's horrible. And you know what, this is, this is a moment where people are gonna go, ah, she's a Prager proselytite. Proselyte. What, what's the word?

Yeah, proselyte. Proselite. Why? Why?

When I said it wrong.

No, no. Yes. Why?

Because with what I'm about to say sounds very Pragerian. And I think it's a great thing that I've internalized it. This is the consequence of a secular society. I can promise you that whoever stole my parents' money does not believe in God, just as I can promise you.

Well, no, no, no. I know exactly what you're saying. And you're 100% right. They may well believe in God.

Oh, I see.

They didn't go to church that Sunday. Secular is not religious, not atheist. That's a very— it's really important for us. Hitler thought he believed in God. He doesn't believe— this guy doesn't believe in the God of the Bible, right? He believes in the God he manufactured.

He doesn't believe in God.

That's what I mean, is that he truly doesn't believe in a moral judge, right? That's clear. That's why I want, you know, I want billboards, God judges you. They're more effective than God loves you.

I agree. If I could say one thing right now to someone who is anti-religious, who thinks that religion is antiquated and oppressive and basically does nothing, I would like to say this to them. When you take away a judging God, even, and by the way, people who are anti-religious go like, well, how do you know if it's real? Even if it isn't real, God, the Bible, religion has a utility. Above all else, it has a social utility, which is what we all talk about, wanting harmony. Believing that there is a judging God affords you the maximum amount of harmony because when the state won't cut in and effectively punish people or when the state can't catch some criminals, the one thing that will keep that criminal from committing their crime is if they believe that the man upstairs will judge them in the end. And when you take that away, what is the incentive to curb your impulses.

This is worthy of the rest of this D&J for all, as far as I'm concerned. So first, you may not know this, Voltaire was the great French Enlightenment thinker who was an atheist.

Yes.

But he is— it's a very famous phrase, and I'm paraphrasing, I want my housekeeper and listed everyone in his life. I want them all to believe in God.

Well, that's your brilliant insight. Last D&J, I asked— I said to you, what would be your one-sentence pitch for people as to why they should be good? And your answer was you want everyone else to be good in your life. That is the thing that you most want of others. So you're kind of— it's only fair for you to practice it yourself, right?

But, but he was intellectually honest enough to say, exactly, I don't believe in God, but If the world didn't believe in God, it's— it would be moral chaos.

We're seeing it.

So now it's like the perfect— I can't believe it's like we had set this up, which we didn't. We never do.

Never.

So the, the segue to back to my story of my leaving the note on the woman's car— I didn't know it was a woman— on the person's car. So I told you I intend to devote an hour on radio. I want to hear what what people have to say about this. So I have so many questions. The first one was, what percentage of Americans would leave a note if they, if they damaged a car and no one saw it, obviously? Second, what is the percentage today versus 50 years ago, 60 years ago? Maybe both are unknowable, but I wish I could But here, here you'll love it because this is— I admit this is me. So I also ask another question: why did I leave a note?

Why did you?

It's not easy.

Well, as you said also last, D&J, we don't always know people's full motives, including our own.

That's why motives don't mean a damn thing. Only actions matter. That's my, that's my big lonely fight in life where both secular and religious people are preoccupied with feelings and thoughts and motives. I'm preoccupied with actions. Yeah, so I want to— but look, I did the action, so the question is, why did I do it? So, uh, okay, I didn't think about this, it comes utterly spontaneously to me. Why do you think I did it?

I think you did it because you believe in a judging God who will punish you. I know punish is a strong term, but there'll be consequences for you if you don't do it. And I think that you have so trained yourself into making your modus operandi of doing the right thing that it wasn't even in consideration to you that you wouldn't.

So, okay. This is— that's why I told you this is so rich. I debated Alan Dershowitz 20 years ago on the radio, before Trump, before he was hated by liberals.

I interviewed him on your show about a month ago.

And good for you and good for him. And he said to me, it was very interesting, I obviously remember it from a long time ago. He said, Dennis, I respect you, which he does. That was given, but he prefaced it, you know, you know how much I respect you and so on. But nevertheless, I am— I think I am, at least in this sense, a better person than you because I will do the right thing even though I don't believe God will punish or reward me.

Fascinating.

And that is a very common atheist or agnostic argument against the argument you just offered, or I offer. And I've been thinking about it for 20 years. Uh, so it's so worthy. This— so it doesn't get more important than this. So is he— let us say he— I believe Alan Dershowitz would have left a note too. That he scratched the car, okay? And he doesn't, and he claims to have no belief that there is a judging God. I don't believe him. I think he thinks that on a conscious level. He went to the exact same religious Jewish school that I did in Brooklyn, New York, just a few years ahead of me. You don't go through that education and think there's no God who judges people, even if you claim you're an atheist later. It's too deep. But okay, let us say, let us even say on a conscious level I believe him. So it is a very interesting question about who is better, which I don't give a damn. I only give a damn whether you do good, not why you do good. If somebody rescued Jews, there weren't many, but there were after all, non-Jews who hid Jews during the Holocaust at the risk of their lives in many cases. If they did it because they thought God judges them Or they did it because they thought, oh, the brotherhood of man. I'm listening to Beethoven's Ninth about joy and brotherhood. What's the difference? A good act is a good act. You're a hero or you're a non-hero no matter what. Vast numbers of people believe in God and it hasn't had any moral impact on their lives. Let's be honest. Okay. So my first answer to Alan Dershowitz's argument is in real life, if there is no reward and punishment, he would acknowledge pure moral anarchy would prevail in the world. If the police went on strike, Alan Dershowitz would stay home behind a locked door. He would not venture out to go to go to the market, to go to a restaurant? The restaurant would be closed, right? So clearly we know that if there is no reward and punishment, the moral world is dead. So whether or not he is more noble is an interesting philosophical question to which the answer is unknowable. It is unknowable. Okay, let God judge, or let the listener judge. I don't care a damn. All I know is the consequences of a non-judging God is the consequences of a non-judging society. We won't judge you if you steal. Okay, then how much more theft will we have? We're having it right now. This is a massive spike in— massive— in just overt, unashamed, unsecretive robbery of stores because they think they won't get caught.

Oh, they're, they're, they're actually bragging. The thing that's so offensive about those robberies are not just the fact that these individuals are stealing, but they're doing it in broad daylight. They're not trying to even conceal their identities. They're going— they're just doing it, I think, as a major F-you. I know that you will not prosecute me. I know that I'm going to shoot you in the face.

I know.

And they're right. They're totally right. Like, but I think it shows the utter— because at least when— I mean, robbery is never okay, but at least when someone robs the store at night with a hood, there's some shame almost about it. There's even if it's like one—

fear of getting caught.

It's almost— there's almost a little bit of respect for society demonstrated because you fear that society is going to go after you and catch you. When those people are just walking in broad daylight, they have no respect of and/or fear of society.

Well, many of them are wearing masks, to be honest.

Well, a lot of the videos I've seen, a lot of them.

Is that right?

Yeah. You can see there.

You can just see their faces.

It's mixed in broad daylight.

I know. I understand that. So back to my original question, why did I leave the note?

Okay, so I answered.

Right, so, so I, I— you love these questions, I love these questions because we both want to understand life. So I want, I, I want to understand me, I want to understand life. I want you to know that there is a non-God-related answer when I analyze to the best of my ability, and none of us has a perfect ability to know our motives, it's not possible. You can know many but not all. One of them, you will— I think you'll find this fascinating. And I go back to high school. I led a campaign in my high school, you know this, against cheating.

I was on the honor council at my high school and college at Harvard.

Really? I believe it, needless to say. So I remember that the— there was an absolute religious reason. I thought God said do not steal, and cheating is stealing. But I remember that at least as powerful— and I'm, I'm dying to get your reaction— was—

I know what you're going to say—

what?

Dignity.

Yes. Why? Had I told you this?

We've talked about it.

Yeah, but I don't think we have on the show. Not on the show. Yeah. Okay. So this will, I think, fascinate people listening to this. It, it bothered me in terms of my self-perception. Dennis, are you going to really cheat on a test? I so didn't see myself as someone who who would do that. I felt it, as you just noted, it was— it degraded me. Does that make any sense?

Absolutely it does. And I've contemplated it myself because my sense of dignity has always been something very strong and in me and important to me. I think that comes from— even though dignity exists outside of a religious view of consequence, I think it's tied up with a religious view of yourself. Because you view yourself as a precious person, as someone whose actions matter. And I think preserving dignity is almost like preserving your relationship with what's good and what's true.

And God, we're in God's image.

Yes, we're exactly—

because you think it is related.

I think it is. I think, I think it's a first cousin. Or maybe a second cousin, maybe a sibling. I actually think it's more of a sibling than a first cousin. I think it's very related.

Yeah, well, I don't, I don't know. When I didn't cheat, I wasn't— but again, I was just saying I wasn't preoccupied with God when I wasn't cheating. But, but the It's an intelligent comment you make because they're both huge factors. I remember one of my arguments to my— they were all Orthodox Jews. It was a yeshiva. And I remember saying to my classmates, said, hey guys, I have this image that we're taking a Torah test and one kid looks at the other and goes, What's the— what's the answer to number 6? Thou shalt not cheat. Thank you.

That's funny.

Isn't that good? I came up with that. Yeah. So there was always a religious aspect.

Yes.

But there was— forgive me— there was, at least not on a conscious level, a non-religious aspect.

Understood.

I could not have driven away from that car and lived with myself. Here's the killer. What if I were certain there was no God? I mean, it was proven to me. I don't think it's not possible, I admit. But let us just imagine it for argument's sake. I still don't think— I still think I would have left the note because I have so structured myself perception as a decent human being that I couldn't fracture it.

I want to tell you about a book that Dennis says has been one of the most influential books in his life. It has been rereleased. George Gilder's Men and Marriage. George Gilder, who I interviewed on my show Timeless, has been clear about the stakes for the family since 1974. 50 years later, The need of the hour remains: men that take responsibility for themselves, men who love their wives, men who raise their own children, men who tackle the workforce motivated by their family and the needs of others. Without fathers, our civilization will sink back into the Stone Age. We must bring dads back or else. Get your copy of George Gilder's classic book, Men and Marriage. Today at dadsareback.com. If Dennis recommends it, it must be a great read. Civilization needs strong men. Without dads, we're toast. Get George's book at dadsareback.com. Oh gosh. Okay. I have so much to say to this. First of all, see, I don't even know where to begin. I really do think that it comes from a religious point of view, because if you view your existence as insignificant, then your actions are insignificant, whether they're— whether they just affect you or they just affect someone else. If you just view yourself as a materialist bundle of cells and you only have a finite amount of time on this earth and you should just use it for your gain or for your pleasure, you're going to be more likely to cheat and to behave in ways that are not dignified because you kind of think your existence is a big eff it. If that makes sense. I think a religious point of view— the thing that I love so much about religion, and I really can't thank you enough because you are the person who brought me to this and demonstrated to me how powerful it is, is that on the one hand, literally in the Bible, in the first few chapters of Genesis, you are— Adam, or human in general, is told that they are both made in the image and likeness of God and also dust of the earth. That's an amazing thing, and that's a necessary combination. If you think all the time that you're in the image and likeness of God, you'll come to see yourself as more important than you are. But if you just view yourself as dust, then you're going to be more likely to behave in ways that are dust-like because you think you're dust. But religion, I think, keeps you humble. But more than anything else, it gives a meaning to your existence. You were individually made and chosen and created in God's image and likeness. And so what you do with that reflects on your creator. What you do with that is, you know, ripples to everyone else. And I think people who have the greatest sense of dignity and self-respect are the ones who view their existence as consequential. Not that they're put on this earth to be the next king and queen or CEO or whatever, but truly view, again, their existence as having moral cosmic consequence. And I think back, forgive me, dear audience, for making it about me for a moment, but it's interesting for me to compare myself to you because you say that you had the, was it yeshiva? Is that the right name? Yeshiva education that endowed you with a religious view of the world, even if it wasn't always conscious. I didn't really have a religious upbringing, but my parents, I think, suffused Judeo-Christian religious values into my up upbringing without packaging it as Judeo-Christian. And a lot of it was my birth story. I was born from a surrogate mother. My mom couldn't bear children after having my two sisters. And it took my parents many, many years to find a surrogate. Several surrogates failed in carrying the child. And my parents always told this birth story as really almost like a biblical religious thing. Not that I was like Christ or the Messiah, but just that God facilitated a miracle here that despite all these odds and all these impediments, God gave you to us through this woman, which was such a miraculous thing, and we are so grateful. And so growing up, I sort of had this idea that I was a child of God and that God wanted me to be on this earth. That's what religion gives you. That's what my parents suffusing religion without packaging it as religion gave me. And I think that gave my sense of dignity that you also had as a kid with your religious upbringing. That's a long-winded way of saying I think a religious viewpoint facilitates this.

So you just described— totally, you just described, and I'll make it even clearer with this comment, you just described the crisis of religion. A lot of good people who had religious backgrounds kept the values without the package.

And it's photocopy ethics.

Yeah, but, well, yeah, all right, that's your way of saying cut flower. The 10th photocopy is not as clear as the first. But the— I think that that's true, although with modern copying machines it might not be as true as it was once, but The real analogy is the cut flowers, which is not mine. I got it from Will Herberg, who got it from somebody else. By the way, you should read Will Herberg, Judaism and Modern Man. Blow your mind whether you're Jewish or not. And you're not. It's hard for me to remember you're not.

I know, because Shabbat.

Yes, exactly.

All we talk about is Torah.

The analogy is, of course, when you cut flowers from their soil, they seem to live. And if you don't know anything about flowers, look, they don't need their soil, but they wither and die after a short period of time. Ethics nurtured in Judeo-Christian soil don't die overnight, but they die. That's just the way it works. That's cut— it's called cut flower ethics. And it's not my term, but it's a great term. So your parents did what a lot of terrific people of the last generation did, and that is they gave over these great values, what we call Judeo-Christian, but they didn't tell their kids, you know what, they do come from the Bible, they do come from the Ten Commandments, they do come from God. And as a result Vast numbers of my generation, and even more vast numbers of your generation, came to believe you don't need God or Bible in order to preserve ethics. But look at the West today, and especially at America, where we went from 'In God We Trust' as one of our mottos to 'In Studies We Trust,' or 'In the New York Times We Trust.' And look at the chaos. Men give birth— only secular people say that, as I've said a thousand times. So why— going back to that, it's really important, and I don't believe that there is one, or even unknowable two answers. I think we can get— so one is, yes, I, I admit it. That a part of me thinks God is watching. Oh, that I put a note there.

A huge part of me thinks that when it happens to me.

And that is a good thing. Second is I couldn't live with myself. That— and so here, so let's get even deeper. How do you make a person who can't live with him or herself if they do bad? How do you produce such a person? Well, that's of course, a lot of it is nature, to your point.

A lot of it is depressing. It is depressing.

Most people. Most people. Okay. What we answer my first question. There's— neither of us knows the answer, right?

Guess how do we know?

No, no. What percentage of Americans would leave a note?

Oh, gosh. It's a shot in the dark.

Totally. I know.

25%.

Okay. We both believe under 50%.

Yes.

Oh, yeah, that's right.

Yeah. Under 50%. I don't think it's 5%. I think—

Oh, no, I agree with you.

But I think people would probably do it because they would think that there are surveillance cameras.

Oh, that's interesting.

Yeah. How many would do it for moral reasons as opposed to—

Or any reason? Psychological, moral, 25%.

Maybe more, maybe 30. I don't think 50.

So when I raise this, the beauty of talk radio is I'll get answers like, give me your story. Were you hit and no note? Or were you hit and there was a note? It, you know, it's unscientific. It's just a handful of people who could could reach a radio show, but it will still be interesting to me. And what about my other question? What do you think, 60 years ago?

Oh gosh, how many? Over 50.

Yes.

What, 65%? May I cut in? I know it's a little— to use the analogy again, it's like a first cousin of what we were talking about. I sort of want to go back just for a moment to this thing I was developing, however articulately or unarticulate— inarticulately. About how your sense of dignity comes from, I think, a religious view of yourself as having an existence of consequence. I really want to kind of explore that and hammer that home for a minute because people, again, people who don't view— you talk a lot about how we have too big of a self-esteem culture. And I agree with you, but human beings need to have the right kind of self-esteem.

That's right.

They need the religious kind of self-esteem to feel like they are in the image and likeness of our creator. And I think a lot of what we are seeing now is that people, in addition to not believing that there's a judging God who will levy consequences at them for their behavior, I think they also just don't think that their existence matters. They don't think it doesn't. Right, they don't think there's anything special about them.

That's the point.

And I'm not saying special like snowflake special. I mean like, I am a human being and I have worth and I have dignity and what I do matters. We are seeing a total collapse of that in society. And apropos of our criminal discussion, the thing that to me is very insulting about the left's view of criminals is that by legitimizing and giving a pass to their crime, they're actually in kind of another language saying, I don't believe in you as a human being. I don't think that you have worth. I don't think that you can better yourself. I'm going to— it's like indulging the worst part of that person. When I see a person committing a crime, if I were, you know, leading a program in a prison to try to bet, I wouldn't, I wouldn't feed the leftist sludge. Oh, this pushed you to commit your crime. I would go, no, you are a human being. You were created in God's image and likeness. You are better than this. I believe that you can be better than this. This is, this is succumbing to animalistic behavior. You are more dignified than that. And like, make them feel more special as people.

So your point, I totally agree. Self-esteem in and of itself is neutral. Well, that's what you're saying. We have so much self-esteem and worthless self-esteem.

In some ways, we have a society that is overdosing on self-esteem.

Yes.

But in the critical ways, we actually have a society that has a huge deficit.

You don't think highly enough of yourself.

Yes.

You won't steal.

That's another contradiction of the modern world, right?

I agree with you.

People think that they're grandiose enough to break the law.

I ever tell you my, my Angola State Prison story?

No. Oh, Angola State Prison.

Yes, it's the largest state prison in America. It's in Louisiana.

Oh, it was this whether you didn't know whether to shake the hand of the—

Yes.

Yeah, I read it in one of your books.

I went into death row.

Wow. How did that come up? How did that get arranged?

I, I was, I was invited to meet with the governor of Louisiana and visit Angola State Prison. And the reason Angola State Prison— it was, it's the largest state prison and it was the bloodiest. A vast amount of murders happened there in the prison. Yes. And they brought in Burl Cain, I think was his name, the warden who was a Christian. And he used Christian biblical principles to change the prison.

Did he effectively?

No murders. He made it— I think the— it went from the bloodiest prison to the least bloody prison under his rule. I have a— this is a very important story, actually. One, he is very interesting. He banned cursing. The guards couldn't curse and the prisoners couldn't curse. He put them all— or, and you didn't have to, you didn't have to, but everyone was made— was given the opportunity to get ordained as a minister by studying intensively in the Bible and religion to become a minister. So much so that my wife and I walking amongst murderers, mostly murderers.

Sue was with you?

Sue was with me.

Wow.

Walking. We, we were— we felt safer there than in downtown L.A. Yeah. And I went over to a guy. They had a— one of their shops was an auto workshop. I went over to a guy, a Black guy who was serving life in prison for murder. I mean, think about it. When do I get a chance to speak to murderers? And I went over to him. And you know me, I can't make chitchat with anybody, let alone a murderer. What am I saying? How's your day?

How's it going in solitary?

Yeah, you know, how do you think the New Orleans Saints are doing?

Yeah.

So I said, may I ask you, how do you feel about the fact that you will be here for the rest of your life until you die? Which is the same as the rest of your life, but I wanted to bring the point home. And Without hesitating, he said, I don't feel nearly as bad as the friends and relatives of the guy I murdered. Wow. That was inculcated by a religious man.

That's an astoundingly— you're not going to get the worst individual.

Well, this girl— okay, so listen to this, you'll love this. Afterwards, I was interviewed by some station or podcast or something. It was a video. So, Dennis, what'd you think? Said, I'm leaving depressed, which is the last thing that they expected, right? As you just showed some shock. I said, depressed? You saw something fantastic. I said, that's right. That's why I'm leaving depressed, because the secular press won't report on it. There's an answer to evil. As I've said all of my life, there is an answer to evil: ethical monotheism. And, and the, the secular media won't report it.

What you just said made me think that there is a good, ennobling religious antidote to the degrading secular status quo that we're seeing, where we were just talking about how the secular offering of self-esteem has led us into chaos. But the religious offering of self-esteem, I think, will give people a sense of self-respect and dignity and will make them better people. Taking it a step further, you know, secular individuals talk about reform, prison reform, but their idea of reform is so different from the religious reform which is needed. In other words, the point I'm trying to say is that we hear about secular reform. Religion offers reform too, but it's the better kind of reform. It's that kind of reform of teaching these prisoners, you know, to have more respect for themselves by not cursing, to do whatever that pastor did to make that murderer answer that question to you in the way that he did. People think like, I just want to highlight that, that it struck me as interesting that this pastor did come in and do some kind of criminal reform. And we think of that as only existing on the left or in the secular world. But no, there is a good religious antidote to each of the things that the left is offering. Yeah.

Sending in more psychiatrists won't do a damn thing. Their problems are not psychological.

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If he's a Christian, I certainly— I certainly didn't ask him that.

Right.

Well, I don't know. Well, I have no answer to that, and I want to explain why. See, there is ultimately the only unforgivable crime in, in my religious view, based in, in my religion, Judaism, which holds that the only way to be forgiven is by the victim. If I steal from you, then if I pay back what I've stolen plus a fine or interest, whatever it would be, and I apologize and you forgive me, then and only then will God forgive me. That is the Jewish, the Jewish, it's very rare I will say the Jewish view, there are a million Jewish views. Since the victim of murder cannot by definition forgive you, I don't know how you are forgiven. I'm not saying you're not or can't be, but I, I don't know the answer to that question. That's how bad murder is. Yeah, the victim can't forgive you, and if God doesn't forgive you unless the victim has— we, on the other hand, it's hard for me to believe there's no possible road to penitence for a murderer. I— so I don't have an answer to you, but I do know it's a question.

You know, for all that I read your Torah commentaries and talk with you about religion, I did not learn that about Judaism until I was at your Yom Kippur services like a few weeks ago, and you said it, that in Judaism a person can only be forgiven for their crime if the victim forgives them, then God will forgive them. Two questions for you. Where does that come from? And doesn't that kind of dethrone God by saying like, well, the person has to forgive before I can give my consequences?

Good. So where does it come from? Well, unlike Protestantism, Catholicism and Judaism are more than the Bible. There is post-biblical religion, Talmud, and that's the Talmud. And of course, in Catholicism, you the church teachings and so on. So, uh, the only religion that I know of that is sola scriptura, only scripture, is Protestant Christianity. But even there, there's been so much obviously taught on the basis of Bible.

And not even Islam, because they have the Quran, especially not.

Yeah, exactly. Well, it's— that's analogous to the Talmud, right? Okay, so That's one answer, but there is a biblical answer. All of the sacrifices are for sins against God. You can't bring a sacrifice to atone for stealing, let alone murder.

Okay.

In fact, do you know there is a law? I always do it in Hebrew first, so there's always hesitation. I'll do it in Hebrew because then I have to try. From my altar, you will take a murderer to die. He cannot come into the temple and say, I have sanctuary here because it's the temple. You will take him from the temple, from the synagogue, from the altar, and take him to trial, and if guilty, execute him. You will take him to die. Okay, the murderer.

Right.

Now, does it dethrone God? I— that God demands that humans, uh, be the only conduit to forgiveness in crimes committed against them, I think it ennobles God. It reinforces my belief that God more than anything else wants us to be good to each other. I, I, I would have a very hard time, to be honest. I would have a, a hard time with a God who forgave people their sins against other people without, without the other person, without the other person forgiving. And by the way, he's supposed to forgive if the person is sincerely penitent, but Well, let's work through a scenario.

Okay. So let's say you rob a store and take the store owner's, like, every life savings and possessions, et cetera. The store owner till his dying day never forgives you, but you, the robber, have grown up, really seen how wrong you were, and made restitution to the owner, made restitution and asked for forgiveness.

He should forgive you.

Well, let's say he doesn't.

Okay, no, no, I said, I said in my scenario you are expected to forgive, sincere penitence and restitution. Okay, so then God can indeed forgive. If there is a recalcitrant victim, I mean, look, but that doesn't make it—

you say that the person ought to forgive. Yes, but they may not. Okay, and so by God's law, if that person doesn't forgive, then God doesn't forgive.

They're unjust.

Are they?

The one who doesn't forgive?

Yeah.

If you rob my store, you come back to me, you say, how much did I rob? Here is what—

here, if it was 40 years later and you had to work, you know, for 40 years and build yourself and rebuild your business and take care of your family, you know what, that's a—

I don't have an answer. Uh, it would seem to me That's a very, very tough one. No answer is perfect though. Do you really want a God who forgives what you've done against other people before you've even asked for forgiveness from those other people? So for the 40 years, let's take your, your tough scenario. The 40 years that the guy has suffered and the guy has not been penitent 40 years later, he finds God. And so for those 40 years, God should have forgiven that guy?

No, what I'm saying is once that person found God, once he sought to make it right with the owner, right, once he went through this transformation, then I think God ought to forgive him if the owner doesn't.

I understand. Only God has perfect justice.

Right.

The 40 years of, of pain because he lost all his money in that robbery, let's say. Well, I mean, let's, let's take it worse, you know. You're, you're beaten and rendered quadriplegic.

Yes. Yep.

And then the guy comes, I, you know, I, I will buy all your wheelchairs. Wheelchairs.

Yeah. See, that's why I think—

okay, that— no, that's why we have to You are, you are concerned with how is that guy going to get forgiven. I am more concerned with how are we going to prevent people from doing it in the first place. We're both concerned with each other's, I fully acknowledge that, but I don't think teaching that no matter what you do, God will forgive you Now that's a really good point.

Not that all your other points weren't good, but that is a really, really important point. That is the most powerful argument you've given to me so far in this interview.

Oh, that's my underlying argument.

Yes, that is really true. I've always struggled a bit with this idea that you can be a terrible person for your whole life and then at the end, if you come to a— even if it really is genuine, if you come to a kind of sense of remorse about it, then you'll be forgiven. That doesn't always ring right with me because then what's the incentive to live a righteous life all along?

Well, the only— you can just kick the can down the road. As it happens, there is an answer because you don't know where the road ends. You may die tomorrow. There's a very famous Hebrew phrase: Don't believe it. Don't believe in yourself till the day you die. But since we don't know the day we'll die, you better not believe in yourself.

That's a very— that's a good point, too.

Yeah.

You're full of them.

Well, I've lived longer than you. I'll tell you this, when, uh, you're doing damn well on the thought issues.

I hope.

Oh, you're, you're a joy.

You want to get better? I'm always, every day I'm thinking about how I can get better.

Yeah, so am I. I know you are. By the way, just, just for the record, but I'm also thinking how you can get better. No, that was a joke.

It was You probably are.

You're, you're one of the, you're, you're one of the few women one can— a man can rib.

Oh, of course.

Men with men all the time.

Oh, and women with women never.

Yes, we, we've established that. It's hilarious.

I want to highlight what you just said though, because we only have a few minutes, by the way. Are you kidding?

I know.

Wow, that went by fast.

It did.

Yeah, you are right that it is not— if we're just talking about incentives and how to build a good society, is not the best thing to teach people that you are— the way you phrased it was much better than the way I'm about to phrase it, but that, that God only will forgive you and that you— what you do to others doesn't matter if they forgive you because God will ultimately— you can't build a society based off of that. You have to have allegiance to fellow human beings and a sense of consequences that those human beings will—

well, people should think about— let us say your son rapes and murders your daughter. So are you going to forgive him? You may still love him because you have some parental instinct to love. Fine. Will you forgive him? So God is our Father in heaven, and whatever we do to another human being is as if we did to another one of his children. God— God is, in my view, I think logically, if he is our Father in heaven, which I believe he is, he knows how bad it is when one of his children hurts another one of his children. And he— no parent— I can't imagine a parent saying to a child who, who did what I just described, you know, raped and murdered his sister, 'Oh, I forgive you, darling.' Wait, so, okay, I agree with you, but then you're sort of saying that God needs to be the one who forgives? No, I'm saying that's why I don't think he does. That, that's my point. I don't— just like a parent wouldn't do it, our parent in heaven wouldn't do it unless that person made— well, you may be— yes, maybe no, I don't know. It's a— yes, okay, that's fine. There might be a point where My son raped and murdered my daughter, his sister. And clearly, if he doesn't seek penitence, I can't imagine a parent that will say, I forgive you.

Right. No, they initiate.

It's a sick parent who would do that. Okay, so then fine. So we all acknowledge, which a lot of my beloved, you know, my closest people in Christendom who, who do believe that God will forgive you even if you don't ask for forgiveness. I don't understand that part.

Really? They think that even—

oh, well, I'll give you an example. The announcement that people make, uh, after a murder within a day: we forgive you.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah, I, I don't, I don't understand that. Who are you? First of all, who were you to forgive? You weren't the murdered person, right? In Judaism, you don't even— you don't have the right to forgive. Maybe God will, but, but, uh, you— who are you? I, I torture you to death and then your best friend forgives me?

Yep.

It's bizarre.

So to come full circle with a question you asked, by the way, I wrote about this in the Wall Street Journal in the 1990s. Really?

Yes. After a school shooting, there were signs put up the next day by students, Christian students. We forgive you, so-and-so, and we love you, whatever his name is, the murderer. And so I—

it seems kind of lefty.

Well, I happen to agree with you. Yeah. And the Wall Street Journal published my piece on it. You could find it.

Well, it's interesting because I think one of the most beautiful things about Christianity is that you are taught to pray for your enemies, or pray for the people who, who have slighted you, or who have done wrong in society. But praying for someone is different than forgiving.

Also, when it says— when Jesus says love your enemy, I think because Jesus was a religious Jew, and I know how religious Jews think, and he was not saying I don't believe and none of us can know for certain. I think he was talking in the micro. We all have personal enemies and we should try to reconcile.

Personal enemies.

He wasn't talking about Nazis.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, you saw, you saw your, your mother tortured to death in, in Auschwitz, but we— I, Jesus, am telling you to love the torturer? I don't think he was saying that. I may be wrong. I, I, I But that's my read.

Well, I know I've said this on the show before. I'll keep it quick. But Nietzsche, who I don't really like as a figure, though I can recognize he said some interesting, thought-provoking things. He basically said that modern-day liberalism or leftism are outgrowths or perversions of Christian doctrines. And he said, you know, this idea of celebrating weakness, I don't think that Christianity necessarily celebrates weakness in the figure of Christ on the cross. But Nietzsche, I actually think it's a beautiful story to show that God loved human beings enough to come down, suffer with them, and not just be like this king in the sky. But the point is Nietzsche saw that and said Christianity gives, makes weakness seem ennobling. And now we live in this modern society where everyone is weak and they celebrate their victimhood. He gave an example of forgiveness taken too far. And I think if Nietzsche were sitting with us, he would point to what you just said about love your enemies, how, how that Christian idea has kind of been taken too far. We're actually seeing a perversion of it in left-wing America where it's like, love the criminal because the criminal was pushed to commit the crime and give ample amount of understanding to the criminal. No, we shouldn't love the enemy when it's that kind of enemy. Okay, quickly.

We'll take that up on another one. It's an interesting question.

Yes. Quick.

We have to go.

So we do.

Yeah.

I was gonna say to come full circle with a question you asked and we got a little off. How do you create people who think that they wouldn't be able to live with themselves if they didn't put a note on the car they scraped?

Perfect ending.

Perfect ending.

I guess because you went right back to the beginning.

I know. So do you have a 5-second answer?

Oh, my 5-second answer is the Ten Commandments.

Yep.

God wants you to leave the note. It's pretty damn powerful.

But how do you convince people that God—

Well, first you try to convince them. We haven't.

Yeah. Yes, we haven't even tried.

We live in the secular age. Secularism never breeds wisdom. Never. There is no secular institution with wisdom. So they have believed that we could get rid of God and still keep do not steal and do not murder. They're fools. And fools cause more damage than anyone. And on that happy note, tell everybody how to contact us.

You, you have such good endings. You've good beginnings and middles too, but you know how to wrap it up. You can reach me at julie@julie-hartman.com, which is really the same thing as reaching Dennis, because I already emails to Dennis.

Oh, we should discuss some of them.

Oh, oh yeah. Oh, I haven't even showed you some recent ones. Yeah, show them to you after. So, uh, please do email me. I love hearing from you. You can also follow me at Julie R. Hartman on Instagram and Twitter. And because we talked about it at the beginning of this episode, Dennis, what's your Instagram?

I, I was looking at you on the screen, so I have no idea what you said.

Oh right, good cop-out. For the sake of time, I'll tell you that it's @TheDennisPrager. Because I'm with the Dennis Prager. So please do follow us and you can catch Dennis and Julie every Monday on this channel, 1 o'clock Pacific, 4 o'clock Eastern. And of course you can listen to it anytime on Apple and Spotify and go back and listen to the 82 or whatever previous episodes we've done. They're good.

That's right. They're really good.

Even I'll say that. And I'm hard on us. They're good. Shalom, everyone.

Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits three ways. One-third chooses the dog, one-third chooses the stranger, and one-third aren't sure. Why? Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions. And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality and why Judeo-Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, you are in effect affirming God.

If There Is No God by Dennis Prager, available now at pragerstore.com. That's pragerstore.com.