Divorce, Dignity, and Demons

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Hello everybody, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls. Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. It's the Dennis and Julie The Dennis Prager U podcast. I realized just as we were entering, I open up every one. This is— and it's unofficially, it worked out. I open up each one and you close each one.

We could switch one day.

We could. But it brings up a thought. One of the reasons we get along so well is we have a division of duties. Interesting, isn't it?

Very interesting.

Yeah. So I have a question. It occurred to me right before we went on, and we could spend 1 minute or more. I'm just— this is a curiosity question. I, I'm— it's rare that I can't predict your response because I know you so well, as you could predict my responses. But I give you my word, I have no idea what you'll say. What do you do? Well, I'll put it this way. Do you think that obliterating Mrs. was a good thing for society?

Oh my gosh, I have so many opinions on this. No, I still call adults, and I'm 24 years old, so I guess I'm an adult. I mean, of course I am an adult, right?

I get the point.

I call adults Mr. and Mrs. XYZ because it was drilled into me as a child to do that. And I still enjoy doing it because it's a way of It's such a polite and subtle and dignified way to signal your deference and your respect for a person. And I think it's a catastrophe that it's gone away. You know, there are schools in Los Angeles, and I'm sure this is the case now all around the country, but when I was growing up, there were schools in LA where it was customary for students to call the teacher by the first name. And I think that's terrible. I think that is so disrespectful.

That's a given. I can't stand that.

What was this?

That was a— there is a collapse of all hierarchy. That's what that's about. Nobody is above you. Not your teacher, not your parent, not the policeman, not your clergyman. No one. No one is above you. That's— but that's a separate one. I'm talking about removing Mrs. and substituting Ms. for every single woman. Ms. Miss Wilson can be, you know, 16 years old, can be 76 years old. And you know the reason it was done.

Perhaps I'm not following.

So are you saying I'm talking about the obliteration of Mrs. and substituting Miss for it?

And can you give examples?

That's so interesting that— so this is not something you're aware of, really?

No. When you asked the question, I thought you meant with regard to adults calling adults.

No, that's clear. So, by the way, that in and of itself is so interesting. It was a revolution in America.

Was it?

Yes.

I'm not aware of this.

Every married woman was Mrs. Okay.

But what are you—

are you aware of that?

Well, of course. But what are you saying has happened now?

Nobody is Mrs. The term is not used. Every woman is Ms. Well, can you give it—

I'm not, I'm not—

no, no, no, no, it's anyone. It's you. You would be Ms. Hartman, right?

But I'm not married.

Yeah, but your mother would be Ms. Hartman.

Really? I don't know. I don't— is that true?

Totally true.

Wow, I, I wasn't aware of that. I mean, it doesn't surprise me, but you—

it is inconceivable that you would receive, let's say, uh, a grown woman, a 50-year-old married woman will get an email and it will say, "Dear Ms. Hartman," or "Dear Ms.

whoever." Wow, I wasn't aware of that.

What, you weren't aware? Oh, you thought Mrs. was still in use?

Mm-hmm.

Oh, that's fascinating.

Well, I think it is still in use, but I actually think what's been substituted is not Miss for Mrs., but first name for Mrs., where now it's really common to just refer to you as—

No, no, I agree.

Or even officers, or even, you know—

You're right, but— It's not the discussion I'm up for right now. That's a tragedy. But it's as true about men as it is about women. They think he's Gary or whatever his name is. He's not Mr. It's always, by the way, in that regard, I just want to say, whenever I meet a family, like even strangers, you know, at an airport, it's so indicative when the parent will say, oh, this is Mr. Prager.

Hmm.

You can almost know their politics by, oh, say hello to Dennis.

Right, right.

To, you know, to a 7-year-old girl or boy. But anyway, that's it. That's it. It's a very worthy issue, but it's not the one I'm asking about. So you're simply not aware of the decline of Mrs.?

No. In the way that you are identifying it, I'm not aware of that. No.

So when you would get an email from college from, from the Harvard authorities, it would say, dear Ms. Hartman, right?

I mean, no, I think it would say dear Julie.

Oh, it always say Julie.

Yeah, I think it would say Julie. But again, I'm not married.

So what about your teachers at your all-girls high school? So they were, I assume, nearly all women.

Mrs. We— yep, we had Mrs.

It was Mrs.

Absolutely. Yep, we had Mrs. Actually, you know what, now that you say it, you're actually kind of— I think you're right.

I know I'm right. It's not a matter of I'm right.

It was— yeah, you are. You know what, I give you credit. I wasn't— I, I just didn't quite realize this. You're right. There were some teachers— I don't want to say their names— but when they got married, they did not take—

yes.

And then we referred Yes. Yeah, you're right. So why? So you think— why do you think this is?

Oh, I know why it is. I know why it is. I remember it like yesterday when Ms. Magazine came out. That's why it was called Ms. It was a made-up term. There was no such thing as Ms. There was Miss and Mrs. Their argument was, why aren't men given a different label if they're married or single.

This is what's so— I love that I'm given a different—

oh, I think that's so fun. Oh, I couldn't agree with you more. By the way, I would never have objected if they did that with men.

Women— see, I actually— I think men enjoy, you know, speaking generally, of course, being the head of the household, being the leader. I think men enjoy retaining the name and giving the name, and I think women enjoy getting the name. I am really looking forward to the day when I get to be a Mrs. I think that will be really fun.

So Mrs. O'Brien, Mrs. Birnbaum, Mrs. Who are you listening? No, no, no.

Oh, what my perspective? Like, well, it depends on the last name.

I know, no, obviously. Okay, anyway, uh, uh, so you know my wife, who was a tower of strength, her, her email account— I won't give the but is You basically just gave the email again. No, no, we didn't.

Yeah, that's right, there are only like 4 options. Well, anyway, that's— she was kidding. That's not the email.

No, no, no, it, it's, it says something about her.

It does, it does. You know, I remember when I was younger, there was a guy in my class who I was friends with, and his parents were doctors, and it was so cool for me to call them by Dr. And Mrs. XYZ. When— and I wrote thank you notes as a kid. And sometimes I remember one time they took me ice skating and they took me out to dinner, and my mom had me write a thank you note. And I thought it was so cool as a kid to address them by Dr. and Mrs. XYZ. It just gave a kind of—

we mean, when you were—

when you were a kid.

So here's an interesting question. So what fun— so today I think people find it awkward to— not to write someone, "Dear Ms." That's— even I do that, right? That's not awkward. But I rarely have heard people talk to someone and say "Ms." So, you know, so Ms. Hartman, what is your take on it? That's part of the reason I think first names have become so popular, because Ms. is so awkward.

It is awkward.

By the way, they now have Mix. Are you familiar with that?

Of course they do.

Well, I forgot. What is Mix?

Because it's not Latin X. It's like it's, it's some kind of indication that you're gender aware.

You know that the Segerstrom Theater— talking about that. So, you know, I'm heavily into classical music. So I have a Google search on Bruckner Symphony because Sue and I travel around the country for Bruckner's Eighth or Bruckner's Fifth. We're crazy about those two symphonies by a guy whom people who know classical music know, but other— most people never heard of, which is a tragedy, but it is what it is. Anyway, there's a— so something came up I don't even know if it was Brooklyn, but it doesn't matter. I got to look at the schedule of musical events and the great Orange County, California concert hall, Segerstrom Hall or Segerstrom Theater. And I even— I was taken aback. Wow. The listing in one category was Latink's music?

Well, you know what, Dennis? So after my 7-country Europe trip where I went to several formerly communist countries, I said that if Dennis Prager in his 20s went to communist countries, I'm going to post-communist countries and seeing 34 years after the collapse of the Iron Curtain what the reality is like. And I just became so fascinated with communism and specifically with the elimination of distinctions, which you explicate so beautifully in your Torah commentary about one of the first things, I mean, literally the first thing that God does is that he creates distinctions, light and darkness, land and water, man and animal, holy and profane, and that gives you a kind of order and a structure.

You gave me great joy.

Well, it's true. It's so, oh my gosh. No, I'm really sorry to do this, but everyone should read this Torah commentary because it really is the basis of our civilization. It helps you understand not just our laws, but our culture and our shared values and heritage. It's incredible. But in communist societies, one of the things that they do is they try to eliminate distinctions between, you know, the family and the individual. And for instance, most people are referred to as Comrade XYZ. And I was thinking about the The comment, and this is what they're doing to your point with Latinx, it's a nothing, it's a homogenization of Latin. Even these, by the way, these racial categories, Richard Hananya's book, The Origins of Woke, is so good on this. These racial categories, when people would, you know, at Harvard they had an, and not to pick on Harvard, at all these schools they have this, they have an AAPI affinity group, Asian American Pacific Islander. Basically what you're doing is you're drawing a big circle around a part of the world and saying if you're Ancestors are from this part of the world. You all have this kind of affinity. It's also like a Black affinity group. Are you kidding me? There are 54 countries in Africa, not to mention other majority Black countries.

The one you pointed out, affinity group. What was it? Asian. Say it again.

Asian American Pacific Islander.

And I remember, is there anyone, one person from that area who thinks of himself as such?

I mean, it's ridiculous. I remember—

What are you? I'm a Pacific Islander. Really?

Gosh, I have so much to say about this, but I don't want to get off track here about the distinctions because I think it's very, very important. When I was growing up, I mentioned that I loved writing to this— the boy's parents who were doctors. I loved addressing them by Dr. Buxton, Mrs. Buxton. I thought that was so cool. And even as I've gotten older, weirdly, one of the Strange fun details of this job is that whenever I interview people, I have to figure out what the appropriate title is to call them.

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The other day, I, I welcomed Representative Mayra Flores to the show. I also interviewed Representative Tulsi Gabbard on your show. I've interviewed ambassadors, senators. I love figuring out what the dignified, respectful title is to call someone because it kind of— I don't know if this makes sense, but it makes society cool. It's like, wow, we have all these people doing these varied, interesting things and it gives respect to them, and in turn it gives you a sense of respect that maybe one day you could become these things. And in communist countries, they don't have this. Everybody's just comrade. There's no cool distinctions of the differences between ambassadors and doctors.

Of course, they have far more important distinctions— power. If you're not a member of the Communist Party— and by the way, people don't know this, the vast majority of citizens of communist countries were not members of the Communist Party?

Well, of course not. Of course they were all subjects.

Yeah. And the hierarchy of the Communist Party.

But I just so dislike this homogenization. We talked about it a little bit in the last episode. But, you know, this—

you'll want to be known as Mrs. Yeah, of course.

Maybe I'll even change my email like your wife.

Yeah, that'll be sweet.

I think it's sweet.

Of course it is.

Also, it's also kind of a mark.

Well, so all the whole, the whole So it's a kind of what?

It's a marker for you that you're moving on to your next stage of life.

I— God bless you. The same thing holds for taking on the man's name. I mean, this is another feminist cause. Let's hyphenate.

You know what's funny? I used to think that I would keep my name because I like my name and for professional reasons I thought I'd keep it. I think I'll change it.

That's fascinating.

I mean, if—

No, that is fascinating.

His last name is like Hyena Berg. I'm not going to change it.

You know, that— I— one of my best friends was Hyena Berg. Yeah, you had a Hyena Berg. Exactly.

I'm going to keep Julie Hartman.

My— oh, after divorce.

After divorce.

Well, I can only tell you that David's mom, my first son's mom, is still all these years later, Dennis Prager. She's very happy to have—

Well, it's a good last name. It's a kind of last name that can go with a lot of different names.

Yes. And well, I must say, I, I'm happy that she kept this name. Why?

That's so interesting.

Well, it means that she's proud to have been my wife. We didn't have a good marriage. We didn't have a terrible marriage at all. We just, we married in order to produce David. That is my theory of life. That is David's theory of life. I told you, no? He was sitting there, equivalent in his previous studio. He was on my show. It has to be, let's see, he's, so it has to be, I would say, 15 years ago. And, and I, I, you know, I gamble to be real. I gamble on radio. I really do. I ask questions that whose answer may be disturbing to me. I mean, my interview with my other son on my fireside chat was— so people were shocked. I asked him, did you ever think I loved your brother more than you?

Because he was, you know, and you asked him, was there anything else I could have done?

Oh, yes. No, I I don't know. I do. I take it back. I know why people hide things from the public, but as a general rule, I think it's a blessing if people know more about you and that you're more real. Anyway, I asked. I did not know what he would say, and I said to him, What was it I asked him? So how do you regard your, your mother and, and me having divorced? And I, I entertained the possibility that he would say, well, since you asked, I just want you to know it was pretty shattering in my life. It was a difficult thing for me to handle. I, I was totally open to that possibility. And this is what he said. Dad, I believe— this is the way I regard it— I believe that you and Mom married to produce me.

Wow.

And I thought every, every child of a divorced couple, that's such a lovely thing, might want to adopt that attitude.

Well, also, I think it's a credit to you and Janice that you make him feel that way, because a lot A lot of parents— and I'm just going off of some situations that I've seen, you know, it can get very contentious and the child can left feeling like they're collateral.

Like, oh, this is a subject. This is worthy of a whole D&J. My passion on this is as great as any possible subject. I, before I ever married, because I was the director of an institute where we had summer sessions a month, two one-month sessions. So I got to know young people, I'm talking 19 to 25 years of age, really, really well. I lived with them for a month. And I developed this idea, which I have not wavered from one iota, including my own divorcing. And that is, it is not the divorce that hurts children, it is what happens after the divorce. I developed that idea before I was ever married. And that's the case. That's why when you say it's a credit to you and Janice, because, because we didn't badmouth each other.

Right.

And because we get along fine. That was— he didn't have that trauma.

Do you have regrets about your divorces?

No.

Why?

They, they, they— I have— I'm sad that they had to happen. That's not what you're asking, though. You're asking, am I Do I regret that I divorced? No. Boy, this is another whole DNJ podcast. It is one of the few, few areas of values. Of course, there isn't, there's no Judeo-Christian theology, but there are Judeo-Christian values. But the view of divorce is different. Catholics don't allow— well, they— I mean, theoretically you can divorce as a Catholic, but you can't remarry. Yeah, well, yeah, or well, that's if you want to remarry. I have— I've defended Catholics all of my career, but I find that problematic, the annulment thing. Oh, but it doesn't matter. It emanates from the New Testament. There is a hostility to divorce. There's no question Jesus has a hostility. Now, people will say, well, so does the Old Testament. God hates divorce. It's one of the prophets. It's a quoted line. Okay, I'm not sure that that's what is meant there, but even if so, God hates war, but he obviously allows for it. I don't believe for a nanosecond that the God who loves humans wants good people— I'm talking about good people— to suffer for 50 years because they made a boo-boo in whom they married. It, to me, it makes God look mean.

So it's interesting to consider from a societal perspective and then from an individual perspective, because I believe societally we have to set rules and standards and general guidelines, like you should not get divorced. But then on an individual level, of course you have understanding for people who do divorce. And it's something— it harkens back to something I know that we've discussed where I count myself obviously as conservative, but on an interpersonal level, I wouldn't say I'm liberal, but you know, I'm—

Well, you have my view and you came to it on your own. I'm not implying you got it from me, but you do have my view, which the way I put it is, I am, I am for standards in the macro and compassion in the micro.

Yes, that's a, that's an excellent way to put it. And I think that applies to divorce. I think generally it's something that we should discourage. We can't let people, you know, as a society, we can't just be like, oh yeah, whatever, if you, if you get married, you can get divorced. But of course, I mean, I know a lot of people who have been divorced and I can't really, I mean, it wouldn't be my place to say anyway. But it also—

do you want to get into this or not? Because I have—

of course.

Okay, then fine.

Getting— okay, could I say one, actually one final really quick thing on the whole names thing? I think this is really important, and I don't mean to deviate, so I'll say this. You can follow up, and we will get back to this divorce thing. But this, this thing you brought up about Mrs., it got me thinking about how I've been interacting recently with a new homeless friend I have. Outside of the CVS near my apartment is a homeless guy named Daniel, and he is so sweet. He's not one of these homeless individuals who barks at you or who makes you feel like your safety is, is threatened, and he just sits there very silently. And I've kind of befriended him. Gosh, I would say 40s, like 30s or 40s, and He's in a wheelchair. And so whenever I go into the CVS, I ask if I could buy him some things. He always asks for iced tea. So I get him some iced tea. And we've talked a bit about his situation. And by the way, I have to give you credit for this. And I have to give my mom credit for this too. You both are so excellent at this. You both go there in a very tasteful way. You have— I've seen you do this with people where you'll ask the elephant in the room question. And with Daniel, I asked him, how did you get here? How did you get to be homeless? And then he started— it kind of doesn't make sense. He started talking to me about his car accident. He's clearly very troubled. Anyway, I just want to tell you that I make a concerted effort to refer to him as sir. I'll say, hello, sir. Hello, Daniel. And the reason for this is because I know the reason. Well, I want you to—

told me, but I know the reason because I know you and I know me. And I'm very touched.

I love everybody to be elevated in his own esteem.

You're going to use the D word—

dignity. That's right. I have become obsessed with Mother Teresa recently. I love Mother Teresa. And she has this incredible quote where she— of course, because she lived with poor people for decades as a nun. And she said the greatest kind of poverty among poor people is not so much their material poverty as it is their spiritual and poverty. It's that they have forgotten that they are human beings deserving of love and respect. They have— that notion from them has been completely eliminated where they don't even know how to— they don't view themselves as someone who's worthy of love. And with Daniel, I always try to refer— look him in the eye, call him by his first name, and call him by sir because I want him to see himself as someone who's worthy of that. I'll say this final thing, and then I'll really move on from it. But I had to say it with this whole Mrs. topic. In my favorite book, Jane Eyre by Charlotte Brontë, Jane goes and works at a school for orphan children. And she said that the kids were unruly. And she said, when I started treating them with dignity, they started to see themselves as more dignified in their own eyes. And then they started to behave with dignity. And I think that's what happens when we refer to— like, I think when you refer to somebody as Mrs. XYZ, it almost reminds them that they're a wife, and they become— not that it's a character, but they become the wife. Or when you refer to someone as doctor, you refer to someone as representative, it almost has this way of orienting them in the same way that putting on a suit and tie or walking into a beautiful cathedral has a way of orienting you. It's one of those, like, societal guideposts that I think that we use to facilitate good relationships.

Well, they dropped it.

Yeah.

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Okay, so divorce, let's go back to that. I asked you if you had regrets and you said no, and we were talking about how By the way, I would add another thing.

Not only do I not regret— I was divorced twice, which is a lot, and hardly what I ever anticipated.

Hey, it wasn't 3.

It wasn't 3. But I want to say as well, I don't have any regrets about having married them.

That's so interesting. Can you go on?

Yeah. Why would I regret it? I have two wonderful sons thanks to the two marriages. I came out a very rich man in that regard. My first marriage was quite short, relatively speaking, it was 5 years. And it really wasn't that long, it was 5 years till the legal divorce, so it was even shorter than that. Maybe 4 years. So that almost doesn't count as a serious experience. Obviously it was serious enough to marry and have a child. But my second marriage was 17 years. And that's a serious amount of time. And first of all, I would never even contend it was It was all bad. My late wife, she is— she passed away years ago. She, she was a victim of abuse as a child, which I had not known when we married. Wow. By a relative, no less.

So often is.

And here is what is so interesting. The ill effects came out much later in her life. Ironically, it was sort of like she was able to contain the ill effects earlier in life but not later. I wonder if that's common at all. But she was not the same woman as the one I married. There was a definite change. But be that as it may, I got, I got a wonderful child out of it. I learned about life out of it. And who knows if I would have met, you know, the love of my life, 20 years now, of my— of Sue. So I don't have—

I—

you know what I regret in life? If I could tell you, my regrets in life are that I didn't keep a diary. You know, they're not really heavy-duty regrets.

This is really interesting, and I very much respect that you are willing to talk about this because obviously it's your son's mother, mothers, and you know, there's always ramifications speaking about things publicly. But you know, you said that your second wife changed during your marriage, right? How are you able to maintain your happiness and your peace living with someone who changed and having a son who was an addict? I mean, these are pretty— these are debilitating things.

I, I Yes. Why do you think the name of my book on happiness is Happiness Is a Serious Problem?

But you're so happy. I don't think people realize that.

They don't. But I—

hell that you faced.

I did. I had very hard times. That's correct. So I— everything that I write suggesting others do, I have tried to do in my own life.

Do you remember a time of your life when you were miserable?

Extremely, yes, I do.

When you were young?

When I was very young.

But I mean during your marriages.

No, I first as Dr. Stephen Marmer, the psychiatrist from UCLA that I have on my radio show periodically because he's brilliant, and of course we're very close, his— he made a statement on the air which really blew my mind about me. And he said, you, you have great shock absorbers. It's just such a fantastic metaphor. I do. I have great shock absorbers. I've, I have them and I've developed them. If you don't have great shock absorbers, you'll, you'll really be shocked. I mean, you, everyone needs to develop shock absorbers or life will crush you. I did not have, you know, people would think and have every reason to think I've had it easy. I've certainly been blessed. I mean, blessed with great health, with great friends, with a great career. I mean, I've had blessings, but I've also had very serious serious challenges between my ex and my second child, who is, who is now a beyond-belief gem. And don't I know, you, you know, I mean, you, it brings me great joy that the two of you really love each other. It's, it's a very beautiful thing. But, uh, yes, uh, I don't know how you go through life without shocks. I just not— I don't know how that I would like to know. It's interesting. I'm thinking of one couple that I know of in my life, and I'm wondering if they would qualify. That's the only people I can think of. There's one couple.

I know them.

No.

Okay.

I want you to meet them. And it would— it would— I'm going to ask them the next time I'm back. I'm very close. I could ask them. So, you know, you might be the only people I know who have not been dealt hard blows. And for all I know, they'll look at me and go, are you kidding?

I know. Well, a lot of the times these things aren't public. I mean, they can't be public.

That's right.

You know, you have a sibling with a, with a problem, or an in-law with a problem, or even a kid with a— a lot of people don't talk about it. Also, I don't think anybody's immune.

And, and yes, nobody is immune to that, but nobody's immune to another thing. Everyone has demons.

What are yours? No, I know it was such a quick question.

We'll see you next week. It has been— it's a short version of the Dennis—

that kind of came off as sarcastic. I, I genuinely meant it. What are yours?

No, I know.

I mean, you don't appear to have them. I know you do. Everybody does.

Correct. So it is an interesting question when I've worked through a lot of my— it's interesting because I just said everybody has. Well, I would say, you see, women don't know the power of the sexual in men's lives. There's no way to know. It's like asking me to understand a barracuda. You could tell me about a barracuda and I could, I could know it, but I can't understand it. And so I have worked very hard to control that part of me.

Okay. So I have a theory that is really because of your influence in my life. You know, Leo Tolstoy's opening of Anna Karenina?

Yes, about every family.

Every family is happy in the same way, and every unhappy family is unhappy in its own unique way.

Right.

I would like to apply that to men and women. I think that male demons tend to be correct, similar, and then females tend to be entirely right, quite individual.

We don't have you.

I don't know if that's— I, I think that— I don't know if that's like half of them, because there are men who have— I mean, to— sorry to really go there. Well, I guess this does fall into the sexual category. People who have their— men who have their unique demons, like child abusers, though that does fall into the sexual category, right?

Yeah. Oh no, by the way, that's not the only demons people have. Oh, Bible.

No, I'm saying that. I'm saying men.

But, but if I, if you— if I had to identify a demon that I've had to work to control, that would be—

I don't think women have sexual demons generally. I think we have intimacy demons, or we have certainly self-image demons, but not sexual really, generally speaking.

If women didn't have demons, there wouldn't be so many.

We have a lot of demons.

By the way, there are demons that of course have nothing to do with the sexual for men as well.

Oh, of course.

I know a guy, here's his demon. He aches to be famous. It has gnawed at him. This has nothing to do with sex. And I have fame, but I've never craved it. Never. Not a day in my life. And you know me.

I mean, not at all.

The only reason that fame matters to me is it means more people heard my ideas. That's— I translate the— for my life, I translate the word famous to, oh good, they may have read my Bible commentary. They may have read my book on America that you read. I mean, they may have heard one of my fireside chats. Oh, I'm thrilled. But the fame as such, do you know, I mean, this is worthy of— we should do a whole hour on fame. But I'll just tell you, It's so not an issue in my life that it happens any single day that I leave my house, which is virtually every day of the year, just to go to a restaurant or whatever. I am stopped by at least one person who says something to me or wants a selfie. You know, I had this really serious accident. I'm fine, thank God. Nobody was hurt, but my car was probably totaled. And there I am with the police and firemen, and people are walking over asking for selfies. Did I tell you this?

You didn't.

Is that a riot?

It is a riot.

As I said to Sue yesterday, I said to Sue yesterday, I wonder if I were on a stretcher and people would go, oh, Dennis Prager.

I just— thank God you weren't. Yeah.

But anyway, So the— my immediate reaction, which is almost bizarre sounding, my immediate reaction is, oh, that's right, I'm Dennis Prager. I never walk around thinking I'm Dennis Prager. I walk around thinking I'm another guy. But then I'm reminded, whoa, it's like I get out of my slumber when they come over and go, I love your work. Whatever it might be. Anyway, so I'm just noting that's not my demon, but that is this guy's demon— his yearning to be famous. So, uh, you asked for an example of a non-sexual, or you— or any demon, and here—

but oh, there are so many.

There are so many. The demon of my parents put me down.

Oh my gosh. There are so many, there are so many, and they're really passed down. They really, a lot of the times, come from your parents, and then from your parents it comes from their parents. It's like a passed down spiral. I think so many people can be explained by their parents and their grandparents. And it's interesting because you and I focus so much, and it's really important, on the fact that you can overcome you can overcome your nature, you can overcome your upbringing. I think that's the basis of conservatism. You have free will. Poverty doesn't cause crime. You and your shabby character contribute to why you commit crime. Nevertheless, however, I think so many people, their demons come from their parents. Like, not even a— I mean, of course they come from their parents. You're born in this world and you're—

And they're your world.

That's your world. That is, that is your whole world, your parents. So yes, everybody has different demons. But, you know, I think for you, Dennis, the reason why you do not view yourself as Dennis Prager— and I really know this to be true, I spent a lot of time with you and you have no kind of complex. You actually get kind of surprised sometimes when people ask you for photos, which is sweet. But I think it's because I may have— I hope I mentioned this on a recent Dennis and Julie, but when I was in Rome, I spent a lot of time with many priests, but one priest who's hilarious, just very irreverent. He's French and Spanish, he's hilarious. And he was saying that all of us are ambassadors, in theory, for God. You know, not everyone behaves that way, but in theory we all are.

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And he gave this example of Palm Sunday, the donkey carrying Jesus on his back, and all these people are waving the palms at Jesus and the donkey. And this priest said, you know, from the donkey's perspective, the donkey probably thinks that everybody's waving the palms at him, but he doesn't realize that he's just an ass, that everybody is waving the palms at what he's carrying on his back, Jesus. And so then the Father Francesco turns to me and he goes, you're an ass. Amen. And I love that. I thought that was so funny. And I thought it was kind of everything because I mean, I love God. I, I'm just obsessed with God. And I know how much— I mean, God is your whole life. I mean, almost everything you, everything you do, I would say, is because of God. And I think that's the, I think that's the contributing factor for you with the fame thing. I don't think you view yourself—

I mean, even though you're right, that's right, I'm the donkey.

And you're the donkey.

I want to highlight this for people.

He says, I don't take credit for this. It It's my nature.

No, it's my job. I see. My view is I view it as my job, too.

Oh, I view it. You know, I was telling someone the other day, I had a call with a friend who really doesn't like Donald Trump, and I was explaining why I'm supporting him. And I said to her this line that I want to repeat to you. I said, you know, I'm actually conservative because I'm woke. I'm actually conservative because I know how privileged I am. And I know that we have—

Oh, that's good.

Seriously, I know that we have limited free will. And I would say the same thing about you. You're conservative because you're woke. You're not a prima donna because you're woke. You know, it's not about you. You're— you view yourself as an explainer or a translator or an ambassador of values which were passed. And of course, you deserve credit for the way that you have explained those values and the way that you've built on them and clarified that.

You don't know how true you are.

You view yourself as the donkey.

So this fame-obsessed individual who's— this is his demon. He— we had a— this is— oh my God, maybe 30 years ago we had a conversation. For some reason I remember it was by a swimming pool. And he, he said to me, I don't understand, how do you do it, Dennis? You're, you're, you're so calm about whether you succeed a lot or not. You're not at all driven by this. He knew that about me. And I said, I'll tell you the truth. My view is very simple. If God wants me to succeed, I'll succeed. And if he doesn't, then it doesn't matter if I succeed because he didn't care or he doesn't exist. I'm, I'm, I hope that's clear.

Absolutely, it's clear. It wasn't, but here's the thing, it wasn't always clear to me. Really, thanks to you and this journey I've been on, it's become more clear to me where it's actually, if you have a religious worldview, it's really not about you.

Yeah.

And the pressure is kind of off.

That's right. Oh, that's a beautiful way. That's what I was saying, the pressure was, the pressure's off. Yes, and he's religious, but the pressure is totally on.

This is so helpful because it can be applied to every aspect of your life, not just your career. For instance, if a relationship doesn't work out, you just have to ask yourself, did I, you know, am I right with God? Am I, did I do the right thing? Did I learn from this? And then it's really not up to you. Yeah, I've really come to understand. I use, it's so funny because I've like, I've watched myself go from, you know, secular liberal to conservative to more religious. Like, I've, I've watched my thought patterns, and I used to respect but totally not understand this concept of giving it up to God. Like, what does that mean, give it up to God? But it—

and it's, and it's hard because, yeah, people misunderstand it. They think you stop working.

Yeah, exactly. No, you, you need to do—

you do what you can do.

You do what you can do. You do one 100% what you can do. But then there— you also can't overengineer, though. You also have to let things be. You can't— if you're so focused on being— you can't overengineer that, right?

Well, so I want to return to the demon issue, and that's, uh, it's really important. And the, the reason we got onto the demon issue was, I believe, because I'm usually good at tracing the genesis of conversations or subjects, it was about your second marriage. Never. No, no, no, no, no. But the larger subject was thinking that others are all that happy or have had painless lives.

True.

Because remember I mentioned there is one couple I know.

Yes.

Okay. So I never expected a painless life. That is a big part of my happiness. Because you asked how could I be happy during those very difficult times. They didn't shock me that I had them. People are shocked when things go awry today because they have been raised so poorly by a stupid world of parents, stupid teachers, stupid schools, stupid media that have led them to believe that a painless life is possible, desirable, to be aimed for. Why do you think it is the lowest marriage rate ever in secular, only secular societies? Because there's no wisdom in secular society. None. It's bereft of wisdom. That's one of my biggest arguments for being a religious person. You will actually grow up. There are some secular wise people, though very few. But there were no secular-wise societies, no secular-wise institutions. And one realization you know of, that's why there's a Book of Job. That's right. You know, the whole point of, or one of the big points of Jesus is suffering. Suffering.

The whole point, arguably.

All right, fine. It's part of life. I don't enjoy it, but it— I know it's part of it. And that's part of the reason in my book on happiness, I have a chapter on why a tragic view of life will make you happier.

Isn't it weird?

Yeah, it seems weird.

It seems counterintuitive, but it actually is so true. Not to go all Kamala Harris with the significance of the passage The Passage of Time quote, but I have recently viewed life, people's lives, as sort of like on this scale of time. And it's so interesting to me, you can't choose when and how and where and to whom you're born. And it's like, I remember my dad telling me that in high school, he barely missed the draft for the Korean War. or sorry, for the Vietnam War. And it's so interesting because growing up he was like, "I was grateful that I was so young that I didn't have to serve in the Vietnam War." Imagine people who just made the draft thinking, "Oh, what crappy luck. I should have been born 2 years earlier." Or think about people in far worse situations who were victims of the Holocaust or victim— you know, I mean, it's like you come in, it's this Shakespearean thing, you come— all What is it? All the world's a stage and you come and—

Role actors.

Yes, all the world's a stage, you come on and have your act and then you're done.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, I just sort of— and of course I'm talking about worldly tragedy or worldly conflict, but I just kind of view everyone as coming into the world. We all have our own contexts and situations to bear in our countries and our families. Throw in some, you know, like car accidents and stuff like that. And I just think no one, no one is unscathed. It's just kind of a matter of how and when it's going to hit you. And I know that that sounds, to your point, really awful to— you shouldn't obsess about it. But I think it would behoove people to have more of an awareness. Like, I, I'm 24 years old. I think a lot about my future, the happinesses and the God willing, the successes. But I also think about the lows. I, I think a lot about, will I, will I be able to have children? I know a lot of women who have struggled with infertility.

Will I meet the right man?

I think, will I meet the right man? I also think about my country. I mean, you talk all the time about how much things have changed. Yeah, I'm only 24. What is America gonna look like when I'm 45?

Very real.

What is it going to look like when I'm 65? I'm thinking Do I, do I try to get alternative citizenship? I just, I'm not expecting life to be easy. I'm really not. I don't look ahead and think so. You will have my life is going to be easy.

Shock absorbers.

Well, you know, it's kind of a new— see, I don't know if I ever expected life to go well.

You know how I know you didn't? Because you cried into your goggles.

Yeah.

You know, you know that scene. Has been etched into my memory.

I'm very touched, actually. Thank you. Well, no, but in a way that kind of benefits you. Well, life's tough, man.

Yes, that's right. That's why I said it.

That's right. But I don't expect—

I'm happy the coaches were tough on you.

Well, it was. It was too much. But I hear you.

It was, though.

It was way too much.

I had the same thing with the coach. Oh, we scraped the bottom of the barrel. Prager made the team. That was too much.

But I think it was the practice schedule for— it was just every single day. I would have quit.

Yeah. You're a better man than me.

But we were talking—

find that funny? You're a better man than me?

No, I just thought you were man normative, male normative.

No, no, it was quite deliberate. Yeah, he really— he has been really— I'm very curious why Sean is—

dignity after divorce.

Yeah. You're of that topic. I was affected by it. Okay, I thought so. Very—

yeah, no, that's true. His parents divorced when he was 11.

He was very affected. But you were affected, if I, if I understand you, because this meant a lot to you what I said, by what happened after the divorce. He's nodding yes.

Okay, that's so interesting.

I want everyone to know this. I, I believe— I, I'll just be blunt here. I believe that there is a special place in hell for people who poison children against the other parent after divorce. And by the way, it's usually women, okay? I mean, I have no problem. I don't see— I'm not pro-man or pro-woman. I'm pro-goodness, and I call it as I see it. More women poison kids against the dads than dads poison their kids against the moms. That's a fact. It's not an opinion. And there is no moral justification for it, even if you think your ex is an a-hole. Because what you're doing is you're such a petty narcissist that you're willing to destroy your children and their bond with their father because you're angry at their father. I mean, it's so vile. But, and by the way, there are men who are despicable too. I mean, there's no question. But my view on divorce with children is, since you did what you needed to do by divorcing, now you need to do what the children need you to do.

Well said.

That's what I live by. That became my preoccupation. How do I raise— and I have another suggestion. It is the most common thing to spoil children after divorce. Hmm. Yeah. Especially the parent who, who, whose only concern is, well, I want them to love me. You can't be a good parent if that's your preoccupation.

Did you, did you feel regret or guilt that you had married them? And of course not, because you got David and Aaron. But did you feel like, why did I even get myself into this? I had doubts.

Yes, right.

Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people have that.

Right. But, but I realized it was absurd. It happened. So the question is, what do I do now?

So what do you think? I mean, this, this is a whole— as you've said multiple times this episode, this is a whole D&J. But what do you think is the primary, generally speaking, outcome of divorced kids? Are they more likely to divorce? Are they more likely to have trust issues?

I don't think there is I don't think there's any generalization, and I love generalization.

I think there are generalizations for, for problems. I do.

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Um, well, I can, I can speak to the one that I, that I'm familiar with. I think when you have a family member who's extremely disabled and who takes a lot of the family attention, I think that you Wait, I thought you were talking about divorce. I know, but what I'm saying is I think there are generalizations for problems. I think if you have—

No, what's the generalization for divorce?

I don't know. That's what I'm asking you. It hasn't affected me. Thank God.

You know why I say no? You'll find this fascinating. So again, I was the director of this institute. That's why I came out to California to direct this institute. And we had 80 kids for July, 80 kids for all August for 4 weeks. They lived there and I taught them religion and ethics and life and so on. And again, the whole time I was the director except for the last year, I was not married. So I, and I certainly wasn't divorced. So I had no axe to grind. But I remember saying to a friend of mine, By the fourth year, said, something weird going on in my perceptions here. It seems like the kids from the— from divorces, kids whose parents divorced, are way more mature than the kids whose parents are intact. And I, and I was so traditional that I thought, how could I even come up come up with such a thought because divorce is so, so awful. But I've always called it as I saw it. I didn't let my values interfere with my truth-seeking. You totally relate to that. So I don't have to explain it. Of course. You say of course because it's of course for you. But so I don't know if there's a generalization. Is there a generalization about adopted kids? So just the other day, forgive me, at an evening very recently, there were a bunch of Christian couples who were present. It wasn't our usual venue, it was another, another Jewish home. And one of them is a pastor. And the issue of do parents have a kid that they love more than the other kids came up. I've been having a ball with that subject.

Oh my gosh.

I got it. Okay, next time.

Next time.

So, so, so the guy goes, well, I got to tell you, my— we all knew my parents loved me the most. And what's really interesting is I was the adopted one. So you can't even make a generalization about— what generalization can you make about adoption? Maybe there is one available. I don't know what it is. Now, to a certain extent, you can generalize they are more likely to have issues, but it's not because they're adopted, right? It's because of where they were born into. So anyway, go ahead.

No, no, please go on.

I— Well, you were looking for— is there any generalization about kids of of divorced homes? I don't think there is.

Well, two things. I actually want to say something that is a generalization. A lot of adopted families are Christian families. Isn't that funny? I, I would never expect that growing up in liberal environments, that so many Christians would adopt. To you, and probably to many in the audience, it's like a no-brainer. But a lot of—

why wouldn't you have expected it?

I would think they're nuclear family absolutists. Oh, and I know so many Christian couples who adopt, and they They love— it's not even a question. It's literally not even a question that they love their adopted child just as much as they love their biological ones.

Well, one of the great gifts of Protestantism— and I don't have any axe to grind, I'm a Jew— but one of the great gifts of Protestantism has been—

The adoption centers.

Well, the de-emphasis on blood. They don't adopt in Latin America, which is Catholic.

Why has that been a Protestant contribution?

I don't, because Protestantism, it's a very good question. I only know that it is. I can't answer you why. Protestants did a lot of good things.

Sure did.

I mean, and you know, and some quote unquote, some of my best friends are Catholics, which is true, but it's, Again, I don't have any ax to grind in this matter, obviously, not being either Protestant or Catholic, but the older I've gotten, the more I've come to respect the Protestant contribution. It's being profoundly threatened by atheism, by leftism and by leftism within Protestantism. Remember, everything the left touches, it destroys, and that will be true for Protestant churches. The Protestant churches that go left will self-destruct over a generation. There's nothing left. Why be Christian if you're gonna be a leftist? I might as well just be the pure thing, a leftist. What do I want?

Boy, we could talk— we could so talk about this leftism within Christianity. Yeah, there is so much of it. And so much— so many of the origins of wokeism are perversions of Christian doctrine, or Christian doctrine taken to an extreme. The last shall be first, you know, the meek.

Right. Well, so the non-Orthodox Jews did the Right.

Well, I do want to, because we were talking about if we could maybe make some generalizations about children of divorce. Sean, if you don't mind cutting in, I would like to ask you, do you ever feel— did you ever feel guilty for being born? Or did you ever feel like you shouldn't have been born because your parents had such a bad marriage? No. Good.

My parents treated each other with dignity post-divorce.

They did.

I just know it's such a big deal.

I've always been grateful for that.

I know some kids and their parents had such a nasty divorce that they wish they weren't even born.

No, that— okay, that's— I'm hesitating because I have to control myself. My anger at parents who can't divorce civilly is, is just—

oh gosh, it's so hard. And hear me, I am so with you. There's no but. I am so with you on that because it is about the kids. You said it so beautifully when you did what you needed to do.

Now you need to do what they need to do.

Absolutely. That being said, yeah, it must be so hard to look at a person who you loved and who you saw your future with, and it's a living death.

Divorce, it's It is a living death.

This person doesn't—

Divorce is a death.

Doesn't love you anymore, betrayed you.

I mean, it's horrible. Death of hopes. It's the death of dreams. It is the death of a family unit, although you could still maintain and try to maintain as much as you can, but it is, it's death. I'm not minimizing the trauma of divorce, but I think people, minimize the trauma of bad marriages. And that's, that's also wrong.

That is true too. That is really true. I know some people who are products of really bad marriages.

It shows people destroying each other. They do. And don't get divorced. Well, like, you have to maximize the opportunity for happiness in life. And at the same time be noble. I mean, there are many, many aims that a good life should have. Is there anything else on your mind, Sean, other than the fact that we are soon saying—

I have a lot I could bring up.

No matter what happens to you as a child, at some point you have to own your own life. That's right. No matter what happens to you as a child, you have to own up to your own life when you're an adult. It's my— Aaron Prager's great line when I asked him, so when did you hit bottom? When I ran out of people to blame for my problems. I think that is— that should summarize whether you were addicted or not, that should summarize your attitude to life?

You know what? OK, this is a whole other episode unto itself, but I think a large reason why my generation, our generation, if I may even loop your generation in, is spoiled and out of touch, among Americans that is, is because I think we've been conditioned to believe that our position in the world is unique. Like even we hear with this whole Trump-Harris thing that things have never been this bad. And yes, of course, I agree that, that the left has wrought a truly unprecedented cultural and institutional threat on this country. I do believe that. But, you know, again, I was talking with my friend who hates Trump, and one of the things I was saying to her was, my gosh, I was watching this documentary on 1968. MLK was shot, RFK was shot, we had the Vietnam War raging. I mean, people then I mean, the Soviets were gearing up for perhaps nuclear war. And it's like, do we— I don't think that our— in a way, our problems are that unique or that different from— they're different, but I don't think they're different in severity from what other generations have faced.

Yeah, I do. I do.

Okay.

Yeah, that's— let's remember that for a subject. It's a great subject. And I'm not wedded to my belief, but I've lived much longer than you, and I lived through that. I was depressed at the takeover of colleges by radicals, just like now. But I did not fear for the future of Western civilization or America.

Even during the Cold War?

Oh, the Cold War. The opposite. The Cold War. America was the beacon of liberty on Earth. America is not the beacon of liberty on Earth today.

That's true. Well, yeah, that's, that's something that I bring up a lot with regard to Israel. You know, Israel, obviously, for as long as it has existed, has faced invasion and worse from its enemies. But now they have 50% of the American and Western population supporting those enemies in their annihilation. That is different.

Things are—

that is quite different.

It is.

On that happy note, I guess the takeaway is don't expect an easy life.

This was a great session. Session. It's so funny. It's not the word you use for a therapy session.

Well, it is. It sort of is.

Interesting.

How do they reach us, Dennis?

By listening to what you have to say.

Yes, you can reach me at julie@julie-hartman.com. We love hearing from you and appreciate it so much. Even if we can't respond to every email, we love it. It's a highlight, I would say, of our week.

By the way, the we is Julie and I.

Yes, Sean.

I forward.

I actually do forward. Sean has mentioned.

Yeah, but he is talking to me privately. He doesn't read one of them.

You can follow me on Instagram @juliarrharbin. You can follow Dennis on Twitter at—

God, now I'm getting confused. At 3 o'clock, at 4 o'clock, at 5 o'clock.

At 4:15, @dennisprager and thedennisprager on Instagram and Twitter and dennisprager.com and prageru.com. And check out Dennis and Julie on this YouTube page every Sunday.

Shalom, everybody.

Bye.

Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits 3 ways. 1/3 chooses the dog, 1/3 chooses the stranger, and 1/3 aren't sure. Why? Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions. And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, In his new book, If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality and why Judeo-Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, you are in effect affirming God.

If There Is No God by Dennis Prager, available now at PragerStore.com. That's PragerStore.com.