God’s Will

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hello everybody, Dennis Prager and, uh, oh, uh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Julie Hartman. Julie Hartman. And it's Dennis and Julie. Do you know— this is not the topic for the— I'm— you're going to set a topic. I know you have something in mind. I don't know what it is, right? But I was thinking just today that I, I would have liked to have started I may be wrong, but I had this notion. Dennis and Julie Explore Life.

That's what we do.

I know, but that, that would be the title. Or Exploring Life with Dennis and Julie.

Well, that— if I've realized one thing lately about myself, it's that I am utterly fascinated by life. And I know this doesn't come as a shock to you or to the listeners or to Sean. Sean's probably thinking, No blank Sherlock. But I just, I've really recently come to see that it is, it's the thing that maybe makes me different or the, I'm just fascinated by literally everything in life. Everything.

What's one, it's something we relate to in one another. So you see, here's the killer, cuz this does lead to an interesting and, and, and talk.

I know, I knew this would happen.

Well, it happened. So it's an interesting and somewhat troubling issue, believe it or not. I, as you and probably many listening know, but I know you know, I have been transfixed by the realization of how powerful—

Nature.

No, our own nature. Not human nature, that's obvious, but we have two natures. Human nature and our own nature. And so the question that plagues me is, how much free will do people really have?

Boy, this— we're, we're 2 minutes in and we're racing, and I truly had nothing.

I was— I know, I was thrilled that you had something.

You should understand, before the show, this is how it went. Yes, I said to Dennis, I, you know, he always always goes, oh, do you have something? And, and we'll— or I go, do you have something? And all we'll say is yes or no. That's it. And before the show, I said, I do have something, but I know it's gonna happen. Something is gonna happen in the first 2 minutes, and it's gonna be spontaneous.

Well, you started. It's your fault because you spoke about how much you're, you're fascinated by everything. That's your nature. That's my nature. And I'm sorry, it's so important.

It is. You don't have to be sorry.

Well, I am because I really—

well, don't worry, we have time. I'll bring up what I want.

Okay, so I, so I want you to understand the effect. I think this will interest people, the effect that this profound realization— I don't mean I'm profound— deep, that it's how deep it is about the power of everyone's nature, of Julie's nature, Dennis's nature, and so on. It's good and bad because the free will issue is a real, is a real issue. The, you know, to take the, the terrible example, because I'm, I'm— it's so mind-blowing that there are men who will sexually abuse a child. I mean, it's, it's So it's so foreign to my, my, my brain that it's clear it's built in, or it was created by something sick that happened to them. Now I blame them. They should be—

they should be punished.

Yeah, well, yes, but I have to be honest, I don't get any credit for not abusing a child. You— it's like saying, because I don't, I don't abuse zebras, I don't get credit for that. He— I don't have to work on suppressing that. In fact, I don't have to work really on suppressing any, any real evil. I mean, I, I have to suppress flaws, but I, I don't have to suppress— I don't have evil instincts like that.

I can relate to what you're saying, and This— and I know exactly what you're saying here, where it's, it's not like I'm so great, I'm, I'm not even— I don't feel that we— that, yes, you were not born with those instincts.

Yeah, I'm saying the opposite. I'm not great.

Exactly. I have never felt the impulse ever to steal, which is very common. And so this is, this is a very interesting discussion because it's like, do you take credit for it or do you not? You know, I have never felt the impulse to steal. Is that my, my individual Julie nature? I was blessed to not have the impulse to steal, or should I give myself more credit that maybe that that's something that I worked on without even realizing that I was working on it?

So here, so now that you mentioned stealing, I also, I, I could go on.

No, I'm so sorry to interrupt you. I just want to pause for a minute. I didn't realize how many people have the impulse to steal. You know how I realized it?

How?

I was listening to Pastor Scott. I'm forgetting his last name. I'm so sorry. I've, I've spent enough time around Dennis that I've that I've inherited the name-forgetting trait.

That's a beautiful thing.

I forgot his last name, but Pastor Scott is a, is a pastor who works here at Salem, and he's just down the hall, and he has this radio show where he takes in a lot of calls. And I was listening to him the other day, and caller after caller after caller called in and talked about how they are working on their impulse to steal, and sometimes they can't help it. And it sustained it for an entire hour. I had no idea.

Right, right.

And that doesn't make better.

So, okay, so—

oh God, you don't know what you don't know.

This is so rich.

I know it is crazy. And my other topic's so rich too.

Yeah, so we'll get to it. We have to work on this one. This is huge. There's so many aspects to it. But I— on the stealing part, so it must be really, really common. I'll give you, I'll give you two examples. So I was at, it was in Nashville, I think it was in Nashville. It really doesn't matter, but I think it was. So I was there for 10 days, as you know, with The Daily Wire and Jordan Peterson and the Bible study group. And I went almost every night to a cigar lounge where I would obviously have a cigar and I would do work. So normally there'd be no reason you would know this, but— or most people wouldn't— but that cigar, there, there are always lighters all around for lighting your cigar, or if it goes out, you relight it. There were none. And I, and I, you know, I, I don't let reality go by without trying to figure out I go, I'm just curious, why are there no lighters out? He said, well, we had, I think he said, 16, and they were all stolen. And, and, and it's important because the people going into the cigar lounges are not off the street. They're people who at the very least can afford a cigar.

Yes.

So, so 16. How's this one? I was at a restaurant, and I'm almost certain that Sue was with me. I was at a restaurant and there were no salt or pepper shakers. Why don't you have any salt or pepper shakers out? They're stolen.

Yep.

Salt and pepper shakers are stolen.

You know, so, okay, wow. So, so much to say on this, but I think this is especially heightened right now for obvious reasons that we talk about at length, that we do not have the guardrails of Judeo-Christian values. Our, our culture is no longer steeped in, in these values, which tell us constantly to control our impulses, to control our human and individual nature and behave in a good way. That's obvious. But I think there might be something else too going on with the, the stealing epidemic. And this I have some sympathy for. Doesn't mean that I force it, but I have sympathy for it. You know, it's— so I said I don't have an impulse to steal at all. And it's, and it's true. I have never— I would be— we're so honest with the viewers about ourselves, our impulses, our lives. I have never stolen a thing in my life.

I was even a candy bar.

Not even a candy bar. No, never stolen a thing. I was at Whole Foods the other day. And I was doing the self-checkout at the kiosk where you, you know, you see the price and I was buying cherries and the cherries were like $25.

It's unbelievable.

Unbelievable. And I'm, and I'm, you know, checking out and I'm going, oh my gosh, you know, inflation has gotten so bad. And, you know, and I'm starting to think like, maybe I should, you know, should I de-check out the cherries? Like, you know, I can't, can I not afford cherries? I'm a, I'm a young girl, I gotta save my money. You know, I'm having all these things at the kiosk. And this is where I'll be really honest. There was a thought that entered my brain that I would never do, but nevertheless, I had the thought, what if I didn't scan them?

Right.

And you know what I thought? And then my brain goes, Whole Foods rips you off anyway. I start to rationalize it.

Oh, this is awesome.

This is so, right? And I start to rationalize it. That's how it works. And I go, okay, I'm just taking you into my psyche. I go, okay, what if I didn't scan it? Whole Foods jacks up the prices anyway. They're already ripping me off. So it's actually not immoral because I'm already paying way more. I'm a victim. And by the way, that may be true because of inflation and people jacking up prices. But then I went, wait a minute. No, no, no, Julie. The reason that they're, you know, you have to think about other people. You have to think about the worker. By the way, so funny that I'm having this like moral spinning thing at the kiosk at Whole Foods. But I'm thinking, yes, it's true that I'm a victim of the higher prices, but if I don't scan these cherries, then other workers are not going to get— do you see what I mean?

Well, and not only that, they'll have to jack up the prices more.

They'll have to jack up the prices more. And other, you know, so everybody's affected by everything.

Businesses and theft in America are staggering.

And that's not fair to the workers.

But I find it interesting. I so credit you that you would acknowledge Of course, the thought went through.

Of course it did. But then, and then I went, no, Julie, you're not going to do that because, A, that is not who you are. And that's the most powerful argument. That is not who you are. You do the right thing because it is the right thing, period. End of story. But second, the reason that you're not going to do that is because society would— I know it sounds so stupid, but like society would fall apart if everybody thought the way that you did right now and if everyone behaved as you did.

So I am curious. I think I know the answer.

Yeah.

Did it at any point occur to you God is watching?

Yes. Oh, of course.

I thought the— I know, I thought you'd say no.

No, of course, because you didn't offer that at the beginning. No, I—

it was—

there were a lot of things going through my brain at the kiosk.

No, no, no, that's, that's interesting.

God was one of them for sure.

Yes, I believe God is watching is huge.

And I believe he's— I mean, I have this like image of God. I have this little notebook.

I have this image of God sometimes where he's going Yeah, I actually believe in that.

I believe in that too. He knows. I don't mock it at all.

Yes, they say, oh, you believe God keeps a moral scorecard? Yes, God keeps a moral scorecard.

He sees me.

I certainly hope he does.

And by the way, that's such a beautiful thing if he keeps a scorecard, because it means that your small actions are not insignificant.

May I shake your hand? Brought me great joy what you said. If you're still waiting to buy gold, sitting on the sidelines could cost you precious gains. This is Dennis Prager for AmFed Coin and Bullion, my choice for precious metals. The current economic climate could make buying gold a very desirable safe haven commodity. The government's overprinting of money, the fluctuation of interest rates, and high inflation can impact the value of gold. And it's why you should seriously consider buying now. I've been working with Amfetcoin and Bullion's owner Nick Grovich for years, and I'm glad that I jumped into the precious metals market when I did. Nick's been in the industry for over 42 years, and he's proud of providing transparency and fair pricing to build long-term relationships. Nick and his team have my back. They'll have yours. They recommend what is in my best interest, not theirs. I do believe that. It's not just advertising rhetoric, and I never worry about hidden commissions or huge markups. If you're interested in buying or selling, call AmFed Coin and Bullion for a free coin performance review. 800-221-7694. AmericanFederal.com. AmericanFederal.com.

Thank you, but it's true.

It's totally true. So, okay, so here's an interesting thing. You said it. Uh, I— since we're, uh, we're having confession here.

I know, confession hour.

Uh, I am with you. The thought of stealing never actually entered my mind. It's so obviously wrong and I'm actually crazed about it. Like, if I even check bills that I did, did they undercharge me?

Hmm.

And I've gone back and said, you know, I still owe you $10. All right. But, but there, there is one arena and it is painful, but I did, I did it I took— I did atonement. In elementary school, I cheated on some tests. By high school, I had fully stopped, and I ran an anti-cheating campaign in high school because most of my fellow students did cheat. It was— and that was depressing to me. Did you ever cheat on tests?

One time, I was in fourth grade. I one time, and I had the— I had some— it was a spelling test, and I had a little note card in my desk. And Dennis, too— I know this sounds so stupid— to this day, I feel bad about it. I will walk around, right?

Guilty.

And I will repent for that.

And like, what was the word? Do you remember any of the words?

It's so— I remember weirdly, I remember You know what I remember? I remember they quizzed us. One of it was, what is the word? I don't remember how it was phrased, but I remember I learned that the word for soil is earth with a lowercase e, and then earth is an uppercase E.

And that tripped me up.

And I think that was one of the things that I wrote as a— but you guys, I, again, I know I said I will literally walk down the street. I will remember it. I'll go, I'm so sorry.

So that's why I atoned in high school by leading an anti-cheating campaign.

Okay, so we're very similar. When I was in high school, I was a part of the honor council, which is a group that adjudicated honor code violations. And at Harvard, I was both a voting member and a student advisor.

How much cheating do you think happened at Harvard?

I know. Wow. I've never talked about this, but And I had to sign an NDA. They're very private, so I don't know how much I can say, but there are 12—

Well, you're not saying names, you're just saying numbers.

There are 12 student members in the entirety of the Harvard undergraduate—

Harvard Council.

Just the whole, out of all the undergrad, there are 12 students who serve on the Honor Council. And then there are 12 faculty, and I was one of the 12 students.

Right.

And so I was a voting, so I, we got case, we got dozens of cases. Dozens a month.

Dozens a month?

Oh yes, it was very— it was quite common. I mean, I think that's public information.

You know what I would like to know? I would like to know—

I wish, by the way, I wish I could really talk about some of the cases.

I wish you could.

But I'm too cautious.

I'm not going to do that. So I'm not going to push you. But I also wish, which is related, I guess, I'd like to know how they skewed I would like to know it, uh, male, female, was it evenly distributed? I would like to know conservative, uh, left, was it evenly—

everybody's laughing—

was it racially equally distributed or religious and secular equally distributed? Those would help us immensely in making a better society because then we could identify where work was needed.

You know, it's, as I just said, I really take the privacy of the students seriously. And I had to go through a lot of like legal things that to outline very clearly what I could and couldn't talk about. And so I'm going to exercise a lot of caution here and not respond to anything that you said. But I'll go check because I think they, I think they release a yearly report about some of the About the honor council?

Well, what other than their names, what can't you say? I'm not quite certain.

I kinda, this is, I just, again, I'm 2 years out of college, so I'm so far away from this, but I just remember really going through a lot of training about, because people can sue. I mean, if you, when students are privy to other students' information, agree, that's right. And they would write very private things about themselves and what, you know.

Right. But you, what you're allowed to give generalizations for example, if it was more men than women, you're not portraying any confidence. Do you remember if it was evenly split, male, female?

I'm out. I just, I just want to be so careful. We'll, we'll follow up with this. I want— I don't want to— yeah, I, I don't want to get sued.

No, no, it's, it's, it's very hard for me to imagine that would be an issue. But, but again, I'm truly not trying to push you. I know you're not, but I am— I As I said, the questions I posed, of all of them, the one, the one I'm most interested in is secular versus religious. Hmm. That if I could, if I could know one division among the teachers at Harvard, that's the one I would like to know. And I would bet my— I would bet Sean Who is very, very dear to me, and I— but I would bet him— yeah, funny, he doesn't look honored. It's really odd. I would bet, Sean, that you were more likely to be secular than religious, uh, and specifically I'm talking about Christians and Jews, uh, that— and I would find that any of the divisions, that would be a very illuminating thing. And I'm not sure you, you would even know the answer because that's not something I assume you would know about, a student who was brought up on charges of cheating.

Well, well, students would be able to make personal statements about before they went, you know, why, on why they explaining theirs. Because when someone is accused of plagiarism or cheating on a test or something The faculty raises it, it goes to the Honor Council, and then we adjudicate the violation and we look at what the student wrote, a personal statement. The student— and this is all public— the student comes before the—

I don't understand, what kind of statement would it—

They would write, I mean, and again, none of this is personal.

You mean forgive me, but—

No, excuse me. Explaining because they get to tell their side of the story. They can either deny the accusation or they can. But if they don't deny it, then they would write, my mother, my mother died shortly before I did this and I was in a very bad emotional state and all of that. And then they come before and they explain the— it's a very— I, I hope I can talk about— I'm gonna, I'm actually gonna really check to make sure because I really hope I could talk about this. And you know, another thing was was I, and this is public, I was not allowed ever to, I mean, talk about it publicly, but there was a protocol in the Honor Council that if you saw a student on campus who had violated the honor code and that you had the whole meeting with and all of that, you had to pretend as if you didn't know them.

That you didn't know that they had or they were up with charges?

You would do— yes.

Well, naturally, you know what you think.

Of course. But you— but there was this protocol that you were not to, um—

by the way, was there a protocol that if you see somebody cheating, you, you report them?

No.

There are colleges where you—

I know. Yeah, but there was a protocol because that you would just act like you didn't know them because you didn't want to have to put them in the situation of having to explain how you knew each other.

Of course, that makes sense.

Anyway, very interesting stuff. We should talk about it sometime. But I do want to go back to this, this free will and nature component, because that's how we got off on it. We were talking about stealing, and I didn't realize how rampant stealing is.

Remember your point? I have to throw in something. Sure.

This is—

it never occurred to me until this conversation. You know, I've been teaching the Ten Commandments all of my life. I know them by heart in Hebrew. Literally, I'm literally— okay, I— that's how familiar I am. I mean, most people don't know them in English, and, you know, I could tell them to you in Hebrew. And I'm not bragging, I'm just telling you how much I have taught it. And yet it just occurred to me, there are only Ten Commandments, obviously. Only five of them deal with purely ethical issues. Murder, adultery, stealing, false witness, coveting, meaning wanting to steal. The first 5 are more in the religious realm. The Sabbath, honoring your parents. You could argue honoring your parents in the ethical realm, but it's not using God's name in vain, etc., etc. So the second 5 are the ones— so people have often criticized— secular or anti-religious people have often criticized the Ten Commandments. Well, you know, there's no law against— and then it only occurred to me now, though those 5 are the most common that people have to battle against. Hmm, that's so interesting, isn't that?

Yes.

It literally, as a result— you list them again. I just did, but I'll do it again. Fine. So in, in their order: murder, adultery, stealing, false witness, coveting— wanting to steal.

This is why— and I know that this is basically the thesis statement of our whole podcast in addition to just exploring life, but this is exploring life— this is why people need to read the Bible. Because I, I always I've coined a term to describe the Bible. It's a divine life manual.

Love it.

It's a divine manual on human nature, and human nature is life. It's almost like studying for life. You go through, and from— this is what I love about the Bible— you go through for some of the first, you know, obviously Adam and Eve tells you a very deep and profound story about human nature, but then you go to Cain and Abel and it's brotherly strife. You go to Abraham and, and Sarah and its infertility. You know, you go, you keep going, it's all there. It's all the things that we deal with and struggle with. You go to the Tower of Babel story and its hubris and how to contain your hubris. Story to story, people consign themselves to such a diminished life by not considering these things, and they consign themselves actually to a worse life by not taking it seriously. Because if you read all of it and you really try to get it, and internalize those truths, that's the best life coaching that you'll ever have, because then you go out and you live better.

That's why people should read The Rational Bible.

That's why I'm so enthusiastic about it, as you can tell, because it changed my life. I didn't ever read the Bible. I never— I had never heard of Cain and Abel. I barely knew the Adam and Eve story. But then being introduced to this whole world of richness It is, it is the best thing that's ever happened to my life. It is. So I'm sorry, go, go on with the, the 5 things that the people have to battle, right? So this is a great example.

There are many evils that are not prohibited in the Ten Commandments. They are prohibited in almost every instance in the rest of the Torah, the first 5 books. That's where all the laws of the Bible are, but Those are the most ubiquitous.

Yes.

All right, my friends, if you're ready to lose weight but not sure where to start, I'd like to tell you about PhD Weight Loss and Nutrition. First, Dr. Ashley Lucas has her PhD in chronic disease and sports nutrition. The program is science-based. The PhD program starts with nutrition but is much more than that. They know that 90% of permanent change comes from the mind, and they work on eliminating the reason you gained weight in the first place. There are no shortcuts, no pills, no injections, just solid science-based nutrition and behavior change. If you are ready to lose weight for the last time, and that may well be, Call 800-644-1900 to get started or go online at myphdweightloss.com. Do what I did and just make the appointment for your one-on-one consultation. That's 800-644-1900. You know, there's a joke. Do you know the famous— you'll love this if you haven't heard me tell it. If you have, Forgive me. So it's a Jewish joke, but the whole, the whole world will understand it. So Moses— I don't— people don't know this except they know the Bible story. Moses went up the first time to Mount Sinai, got the Ten Commandments from God, saw that the Israelites were worshiping a golden calf, and he threw them down and smashed them and went back up for a second, the second Ten Commandments. 10 minutes. So here's the joke. He comes down second time and he goes, Israelites, I have good news and bad news. Have you heard this?

No.

Oh, good. I have good news and bad news. The good news, I got him down to 10. The bad news, adultery stays.

So funny.

Isn't that terrific? I actually tell that joke in the The Irrational Bible.

I love that. You have to, you know, I'm thinking about how there would be people who wouldn't get that joke because they wouldn't allow themselves to understand male nature in order to get that joke.

Correct.

Doesn't that make, you know, it is, it is a male joke.

What's more of a male joke? It is.

But also, like, I'm so happy that I find that to be funny.

Yes.

Because I understand male, you know, That is correct. Like, well, understand the truth, understand male nature. Men love—

this is the—

this is women. And like, just laugh at it.

The newer and, and deeper Julie compared to 5 years ago.

Yes, 5 years ago, I—

you wouldn't have—

I don't know why. What?

No, you would have gotten it, but I would have been— why is it funny?

I would have—

or, or yeah, you would have repulsed, right? It's cringy. Yes, cringe-making.

I would have been a little repulsed by it. And it's like, that doesn't mean you're endorsing adultery.

The whole point of the joke is that adultery is sad.

Yes, laugh at it. It's funny. Oh gosh, thank you for how you've influenced my life.

Thank you for being who you are. Listen, the— it's an interesting thing though, that the point that I made— is there— can you think of something? Since I've twice recited what those 5 are, can you think of something else that is ubiquitous? It's got to be ubiquitous. There are many other evils.

Okay, I know we've done it. This is the third time, but things come in threes. It's murder, stealing, coveting.

No, no, you might as well learn the order.

I know.

So murder, adultery, stealing, false witness, coveting.

You know what? I would add another— victimhood, feeling sorry for yourself.

Oh, okay. All right.

I think that's one of the biggest ones that people—

that human—

listen, it's ubiquitous.

Totally agreed, but it, it's then, it's then limitless. You, you would— he would have to have come down with a truck with hundreds of stone tablets. It's true. So it, it—

but, but am I wrong? I mean, I think, I think that would be another one.

It would be great, but it's, um, you, you learn that You really do learn that in the Bible. That's the irony. The prophets blame the Jews for their calamities. They don't blame others. Not— it is that one of the many, many reasons I believe in the Hebrew Bible, and specifically the Torah. There is no other religious document on earth that is so critical of the people of their— I know that document.

You say when I first heard you or read that you, because you say in the introduction of your Torah commentary, I thought that it was sort of a joke because it's so funny. Like, what other religious document criticizes its people? That's how I know that it's not a joke and it really is. It's really true. It wouldn't accord with human nature.

So therefore there wouldn't need to be a law against self-victimhood, because the whole point is you're not victims, you're perpetrators, right?

You know, on this point of differences in our own individual nature, this is what's cool. There are some things that are universal, and there are some things that are particular. Human nature is universal. We all have very, very similar proclivities and, uh, toward, you know, desires, etc. This, this one is controversial in the modern day, but your, your gender's nature is also right, generally universal.

Yes.

But you're— but this whole discussion is pointing to the third thing, which is more particular, your individual nature. And you know, when I really realized this and I came to see it as a blessing was a few months ago, I was on a date. I think I told this on D&J, but I was on a date with a surgeon. And we were talking about our jobs. And I was asking him questions about when he worked at— he's actually now a plastic surgeon, but he worked in general surgery, trauma surgery, actually, before he became a plastic surgeon, you know, people after car accidents, people who've had heart attacks, people who have I mean, gory stories who've been shot coming in trying to save their lives. And so I was asking him these questions and it was kind of comical because he would start to tell me an answer about surgery and I would go, oh God, oh God, I got— I can't, I can't. You have to pause. I can't hear this. And I'd start drinking because when you're talking about someone who has a shot wound and he's like, you know, talking about coming out and guts are coming out in the blood, I can't handle that. And so we both laughed. About how it was so funny on this date, how we were like, maybe we're not the most compatible for each other. He's a great, he's a great guy. We ended up being friends, but we were laughing like, maybe this isn't going to work because every time I'd start talking about some gory detail, you know, I, I couldn't really handle it. But then I realized, I went, thank God we're different, you know. Thank God he has the kind of nature That's right. To deal with that.

And if everybody cringed, there would be no surgeons.

Exactly. And thank God I am cringy.

But if everybody could be a surgeon, there would be no—

Other jobs.

There would be no pilots. I mean, there would be no talk show hosts. There would be no writers. There would be no clergy. It's unbelievable that you think that because that it so resonates with me. Thank God we have these natures.

Yes.

That there are people who thrive on doing work that I can't imagine doing.

Yes.

God bless them.

And that's where— that's where God's so interesting, because God gives us our own— you know, you referenced pedophiles, you know, or people who steal. God gives us our own individual particular natures that vary in a bad way, but he also gives us our own particular natures that vary in a good way, right?

So, well, the question is, does God give the, the child molester that nature? I, I— that would be hard for me to believe.

Yeah, this is what's interesting, and it's what you asked at the beginning of the show. Do we have, do we have free will? I don't know that God gives implants, you know, pedophilia in a person when, you know, he's fashioning them in the cosmic stratosphere. I think that— I mean, didn't Dr. Stephen Marmer, who you've had on your show many times to talk about various things, didn't he say that a lot of pedophiles were abused as a child?

That's certainly well known.

But here's what's interesting. So I don't think that God gives people these individual evil particular proclivities.

But I do think that you said, well, God— but God gave that nature to—

that's what I was going to say—

bad nature.

Oh, that—

when you said that just before? Oh, or that's what I heard.

I think that— no, no, well, oh, maybe I did say it, and perhaps I'm amending in real time, but I I don't think that God gave the pedophile the instinct to pedophilia, but then maybe I'm not consistent because I do think God does give us gifts.

That's right. It's a very— I don't believe either.

You don't believe either?

Right.

The good or— so you don't think God implants particular evils or particular gifts in us?

I think it's randomly it's randomly distributed. That's what I believe.

But how is it randomly distributed?

Well, hold on one sec. Except I do grant that where God wants to use an individual for his purposes, he may give us a specific gift. That, that— in other words, I don't rule God out completely, but I, I I know you're dying to talk. No, no, I feel— okay, so I just—

please don't feel—

this is a very, very sensitive subject because vast numbers of religious people have a deep belief that God is in control. That is their words. And I don't even know what the biblical basis of that belief is. And it doesn't diminish God one iota. In fact, if God were in control, if God gave— if God gave some children cancer, if God gave some, some people the desire to abuse children, I would have a very hard time believing in God. God made the world, and in some people, cancer cells— or cells will become cancers, to be more medically precise— and, and that's the way it works. I, I just finished the fourth of my five volumes on the first five books. And there's a very interesting line that nobody bothers. I wrote the longest essay in my first 4 books on one line. And they will cast lots. The Israelites will cast lots over what area of Israel they will inherit, each tribe. You would think that is worthy of no comment, let alone the longest commentary that I've written. I write a lot of commentary. That's what it's about, my The Rational Bible, explaining almost every sentence. So I note, well, wait a minute, so is it luck that, you know, Simeon gets this area and Judah gets this area, and Issachar— these are all tribes— gets this area. And so my belief is yes, that's correct. That's what lots are. That's why if God wanted to assign territory to each tribe, he would have said, hey, Zebulun, you're here, and Naphtali, you're here, and so on. But instead, you'll draw lots. Clearly, it seems to me it's luck. But most Jewish and Christian commentators go, but God set the results of the lottery. And it's like they don't want to believe that life contains a serious element. People, religious people, hate the word of luck.

But if your family is wiped out by a drunk driver, I love and use all kinds of MyPillow products, and right now they're having a big sale, a $25 extravaganza. When MyPillow started, it was just a one-pillow company, but now MyPillow has hundreds of products, some of which you may not even know about. To get the word out, we want to invite you, our listeners, to check out their $25 extravaganza. 2-pack multi-use MyPillows, just $25. MyPillow sandals, $25. Their 6-pack towel sets for $25. Brand new 4-pack dish towels for, you guessed it, just $25. And for the first time ever, the premium MyPillows with all new Giza fabric, just $25. Orders over $75 will receive free shipping. And this offer won't last long. So go to mypillow.com and use the promo code Hartman or call 1-800-566-6745 today and use the promo code Hartman.

I don't believe God was in control. God has opted not to be in control. Of course God can control. If God could make the world, God could prevent drunk drivers from killing people. But God has opted— he has chosen not to be in control so that free will can exist. Does that make sense?

First of all, I'm pausing because I never want you to think I'm gonna interrupt you. You're so— I, I— yeah, anyway, um, I'm so sorry if you felt that I was—

what, that you were what?

That I was going to interrupt you. You're like, I know you're, you're inching to—

no, no, not at all. I didn't think that at all. Okay, go on.

I want Dennis to have his full space to be so profound. It makes total sense. But you know what, Dennis? What do you always say about me coming into your life? Or what do I always say about you coming into my life?

God, God, God, God, God.

And I believe, and I believe that, you know. And but maybe this makes us intellectually inconsistent.

No, I said, I said, Okay, it doesn't, because I acknowledge that God does intervene. I think just biblically, God chose Moses to lead the Israelites out of Egypt. I do believe that. I don't think it was just luck.

So you think God intervenes in a, in a good way, if you will, and when he—

I mean, no, he might even intervene in a punishing way. I, I— but I'm not God, and I don't know when God does it. So if I say God brought you into my life, I would say that the odds are that he did, but I don't know that for sure, right? And by the way, it doesn't diminish the, the beauty of our meeting. Yes, if it was fate or luck or God, you know, we're at the same place no matter what it was. So I, I don't bank on it. I, I give the example in my next volume, the, the Book of Numbers, uh, and I, I give the example a few years ago. I might— I think I said this on the Dennis and Julie, but I don't— tell me, you'll, you'll know, you're a living recording machine. So, uh, a few— about 10 years ago or 15 years ago 2 Jewish men walking home from synagogue on Saturday night after the Sabbath in New Jersey. A tree fell on them because there had been a snowstorm and the weight of the snow and ice caused it to fall. It fell right on them and killed both men. So as it happens, I met one of the widows at a speech I gave.

Wow.

Yes.

Wow.

And I, of course, I didn't even mention this belief of mine, although I did now in the forthcoming volume. I, I think I remember reading, but I'm not certain, but even if I didn't read it, I believe it, that they, the two widows, believe it was God's will that their husbands be taken. I don't. I just believe it's awful luck that the tree fell on them. Now, by the way, I have no agenda in talking people out of their belief that God did it. It is of no interest in me to persuade people. But when I call my commentary The Rational Bible, there's a reason. I love reason. I love God and I love reason.

Well, there are two questions here and both are equally fascinating. The first one is, what is true? Is it true that the tree falling on the couple, or the, not the couple, the two Orthodox men, thank you, the tree falling on the two Orthodox men, is it true that that was God's will or is it true that it was luck? That's sort of question number 1. And then question number 2, as you just indicated, is what's a better thing to believe? Or what? You know, like what?

Because so what's your answer? Well, I'm both curious.

I know.

Hmm.

Let me start with the belief thing, because this is something that I was talking with a friend about recently. I have a dear friend. Morgan, who is a little older than I am. And she, by the way, the whole way she came into my life, I feel like was, was God. And we talk all the time about God. And we both, you know, whenever we talk about difficulties in our lives, we always kind of mushroom it into this greater discussion of Well, I think God is trying to move us in a different direction, or I think God is trying to teach us this or teach us that. And the other day when I was on the phone with her, we paused and we said, you know, we're always attributing both the successes and the setbacks in our lives to God. What if that's not true? What if it is just good luck or bad luck? And then we went into another conversation where we said, well, I actually think living in a way that, that you believe that both the good and the bad are God's will is better than living in a way that where you think that everything is random, because sort of when you think that everything's random, you can go down the road of the bad road of thinking that your life has no significance. And that to me is the secular materialist, uber extreme humanist world that we find ourselves in now, where so many people are like, Well, eff it. You know, life is just random. Trees fall on people. You know, people get into car accidents. Humanity is just a, you know, it's just a random scientific mystery. And people can get really jaded that way. Again, I think that's so many leftists now. They're so jaded because they totally they, you know, push any kind of divine out of their lives. Now, you and I have a more tempered conversation about this. We kind of allow both, but a lot of people succumb to binaries, you know, where they, they go so far in one direction that it corrupts them. And so I actually think it's a better way to live to think that the bad things that happen to you or that happen to a loved one are a part of a good, loving God's plan. Does that make sense?

It makes a lot of sense.

So I addressed question 2 before I addressed question— but arguably question 2 is more important because we're never—

question 2 again.

Question 2 is what's a better— what's a better way to think or live by? I know I But I'm saying, but I'm saying figuring out what's the better thing to tell yourself is almost more important in this case than what is really true, because we're never going to know if it's true. We're never going to know if it's at least in this world, not in this world. We're never going to know if it's God's plan or random. So in a way, we have to figure out what's a better thing for us to believe to live as better people.

And the answer to that?

I think it's what I just said. I think it's better to believe that a good, moral, judging God who wants you to behave well and will reward you cosmically, ultimately for behaving well, is in charge. And the good and the bad things that happen to you are part of a larger plan for your life that is intended to teach you something.

It is.

And it will all be rewarded in the end. I think that's better than thinking that all of it is random and just materialist mystery.

I just want to make clear, I, I tend toward the random, but I'm a deep, deep believer in God, as you know.

I know. I, by the way, me too. I sort of think I, I'm a deep believer in God, but I also sort of think it's random. Because you're right, why would God have that tree fall, you know? And reason, as you say, reason is so important. And I do believe God is reasonable, otherwise he's not my God.

I mean, Pol Pot killed a quarter of all Cambodians within 5 years. Horrific deaths in almost every case. It wasn't quickly being shot. And even then, it's horrible beyond words. So did God will the death? Did God will every single one of the 60 million or so Chinese that Mao killed? God— okay, so this guy, death, but his wife not. This woman, death, but her son not. I find it harder to live with that God than the God that gave us directions on how to live a good life. People regularly disobey it and horrors come as a result. See, evil is in large measure the result of not bringing God into life. So in that sense, God is, is involved. But that God made— if God makes everything bad that happens, why fight bad? It's a losing battle.

But God created evil.

God created the possibility of evil.

God— I disagree. God created evil. He created the serpent. The serpent, the line in Genesis is the serpent was the— by the way, I love them. This is because of you that I even know this.

That's great.

It's true. I just have to give you credit and shout out the Rational Bible. The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild beasts that the Lord God had created.

Right.

God created evil. The serpent was evil. The serpent was goading and tempting Adam and Eve to disobey God. God, in planted the, as you say, the proclivity to be evil in Adam and Eve by giving them the temptation in the first. He didn't just make them automatons that blindly obeyed God. He gave them temptation. And that's your point about the possibility of evil. But he also created the serpent. And the serpent was that force of evil going, hey, hey, Hey, disobey God. Do it. Be bad. So I think he did create evil. And I still believe he is a— again, this is just the mystery of life, this is the mystery of religion.

Do you get— I want to return to the issue of the comfort issue, which is not trivial at all. It's huge. The people who believe that the 2 men killed by the tree, God directed it. I presume they believe that the 60 million Mao killed, God also directed. Is that fair to say?

Yes. Okay.

Yeah, I, I don't, I don't suspect they think about it much, right? But they should. So do you, do you Here's one way of putting it. Well, here are two ways of putting it. One, let me ask both. One is, does one comfort you more than the other? God wanted the 60 million Chinese dead, or God allowed Mao and all his followers to institute this massive horror? Second, which puts God in a better or worse light? Those are my two questions.

So interesting. Oh my gosh.

All right, my friends, if you're ready to lose weight but not sure where to start, I'd like to tell you about PhD Weight Loss and Nutrition. First, Dr. Ashley Lucas has her PhD in chronic disease and sports nutrition. The program is science-based. The PhD program starts with nutrition but is much more than that. They know that 90% of permanent change comes from the mind, and they work on eliminating the reason you gained weight in the first place. There are no shortcuts, no pills, no injections, just solid science-based nutrition and behavior change. If you are ready to lose weight for the last time, and that may well be, Call 800-644-1900 to get started, or go online at myphdweightloss.com. Do what I did and just make the appointment for your one-on-one consultation. That's 800-644-1900. And I'll amplify on question number 2. Okay, we're told to love God, and as I wrote in my book of essays, Think a Second Time, it's the hardest law in the Bible. Bible for me to observe. Love God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind. And because of the amount of unjust evil in the world, my belief in God is a given, but loving God is not, isn't, doesn't, has never come easily to me. But so the question is, are you more likely to love a God who killed 60 million Chinese, 6 million Jews, 6 million Ukrainians. I mean, it's an endless— tens of millions of Hindus at the hands of Muslims over the course of the Mughal Empire in India. Or one who doesn't want that to happen, who in effect cries in heaven, to be really emotional and feelings-based, if you will, but which, which God is more lovable? The one who kills vast numbers of people or the one who allows vast numbers of people to be killed?

Weirdly, I know, I know this is not a satisfying answer, but the truth is not satisfying. Clearly it's a mystery. Um, I sort of see them as equal. Equally satisfying or equally dissatisfying, equally dissatisfying, equally reverential of God and equally worthy of some pause and maybe even some criticism and scorn of God. Let's consider both. If it is true that God willed the 60 million Chinese to be killed, I know God is good, that I have faith that there is some kind of cosmic thing that I don't understand, that my human limitations don't allow me to understand. But, and this is a very unsatisfying answer, I concede, but that there is some kind of cosmic thing that makes that work out in an equal and just way in the end. Because I know God is good because.

Right. So I defer it to the hereafter.

Yes, me too. So, but we're talking about which, which one is better, you know, sort of which one is more comforting, which one is more easily love God. But I'm saying both have their own merits.

Okay, fair enough.

So if he willed the 60 million Chinese to die, I have enough faith in my good God that there is some good and noble reason that my human limitations don't allow me to understand that makes that equal and just. However, if he also— if it's the free will thing, if he just gave us free will and a really horrible downside, but necessary downside of free will is that people have the free will to commit human atrocities, that also to me is satisfying and reverential of my God. Because that's part of free will and that's just the reality of life. So that's my answer, sort of. I'm fine with both. What do you think? What is more satisfying to you?

I'm not fine with both. So it doesn't matter though.

I agree. I'm not fine with both either.

I have made intellectual and even probably emotional peace to a certain extent with the fact that bad things happen to good people. We cannot know why on this side of death. Maybe when we cross over, we'll find out reasons, but right now it's— they're not available to us. End of issue.

But what I don't want, and I especially say this to people my age who may be watching, and I don't I don't say it at all with a kind of a condescending way. Don't allow the fact that God may will evil, or God allows evil, to turn you off of God.

Oh, totally.

That's, that, that's the thing that I wish I could tell so many, so many, particularly in my generation. And again, I am not saying this as a holier-than-thou, but I feel so lucky to have discovered this treasure. And I know how many people my age don't have access to these treasures.

It's a simplistic view. I've turned off to God because there's unjust suffering. So I'm curious. Let's say so you— the only God you would believe in is a God who doesn't allow unjust suffering. Really? That's the God you want?

Dennis, they don't even consider— they're so steeped in the brainwash.

They don't even consider. No, that's important. It is a brainwash. It's completely around, oh, I don't believe in God because there's unjust suffering. Oh, so I see. So the only God you would believe in is one who prevents all unjust suffering. And by the way, to what point do you allow somebody to sprain their ankle? No, I'm not being cute. At what point do you want God to stop intervening?

It's mic drop, as they say. Yes, it's 100% true. Boy, we're both— we're both—

anyway, you— we're living in the post-God world. Yes, as Nietzsche said, God is dead. We're living in that.

We have killed him, and we have—

no, no, clearly. And, and they— and you're— we're happy with the results. Are you? You know, look, look at your alma mater and, and other quote-unquote elite universities. I mean, that, you know, that's why these, these questions, they're so interesting.

But that's sort of why I said they're equally satisfying, because I know how good God is. I know that if you follow his, his instructions, things work out. God is an unhappy character, and he says that he cried when, you know, or he was, he was sad when he saw humanity but, but this is why—

I never think you'd be quoting the Bible.

No, I really don't. And that's a whole discussion onto its own. I really don't. And it shows you that life can change. You can change life. Your life can change on a dime, right?

For the better.

For the better and for the worse.

That's right. For the world.

For the better and for the worse. But I believe that this is such an important point. I believe that God is good, and I believe that when you follow him your life is going to be better and the world is going to be better. Look at America. I think America is the most— the greatest proof of God, because look at our country and all of our splendor and blessings because we were a Judeo-Christian country. And this is about to get a little controversial.

Our motto was In God We Trust.

This is about to get a little controversial. Look at all the other countries. I'm sorry, that follow a different God. And that practice different things and look at the results.

Yeah.

So that's why I'm not— I believe that God is good. I believe when you follow a Judeo-Christian God, that, that the fact that the results work out so well prove that God is good. And so then with the discussion with evil, whether he wills it or whether he allows free will to allow it to happen, it's not that it doesn't matter to me and it's not that it doesn't plague me, but I'm okay with not knowing because I know that my good God has some reason either way for making that the reality. Did that make any sense?

You made 100% sense.

I know this is kind of—

this is— it threw me another subject which we won't deal with now, but how important Christians need to understand the Judeo part of Judeo-Christianity. Is. I've been telling Jews and others how important the Christian part of Judeo-Christian is.

Very good, very, very good topic.

It's— I, I can't think of, of something more important right now.

I didn't grow up, as you know, in a very, in a very Christian household, but I am, I am a Gentile. I am a Christian, um, you know.

Well, Gentile and Christian, not synonymous, but go on.

Fair enough, right? Very true. And I I see that a lot of Christians— this is not an insult to them at all, but they, but they don't, they don't consider enough the Judeo part of Judeo-Christian.

And the founders did. The founders were steeped in the Judeo. As I always— it's a Torah verse on the Liberty Bill.

Well, also, we need— Christians need to consider the Judeo as much as the Christian because the Judeo The Judeo is the basis of the Christian.

That's right.

That's the fault.

That's right.

You know, Christianity is designed—

Jesus was a Jew.

Yes.

Jesus was Jewish.

That is the foundation of Christianity.

Yes.

That is equally part of Christianity. The Old Testament is just as much part of Christianity as the New Testament is.

That's right.

And so I think equal amount of time should be devoted to both.

What's our story, Mr. Sean?

That was a That was an intense episode, but very fun.

It's, it's so— it's very rich. Don't you wish everybody— I wish everybody in the world would watch one episode of this. I don't care if they even call it Bill and, and, and Judy, Sally, Bill and Sally.

Fine, Judy.

I, I— it's not, it's not for us that I I want it.

Yes. Good point.

At all. I swear. Yes. Because they don't hear these things. That's the point.

And I'm proof. This is what makes my story. I mean, I'm proof. I'm someone who— and I had a wonderful upbringing. You know, none of that is to say I had a bad— but, but I wasn't exposed to this, to religion, you know?

Yes.

And this is something that so many people need right now. Oh my gosh, this is the problem with our country is that we've lost this, these conversations.

Wow. Sean said in my earphones, im him rak yasinu pabachat.

He definitely said that. And kindly translate.

If people do watch one episode, it should be this one.

Oh, that's nice.

That's remarkable.

It's very nice.

Yeah, it's a big deal that you think that, I, I admit.

How do they reach us, Dennis?

By listening to what you'll say.

That's right, that's right. Julie at julie-hartman.com. I love hearing from you. It's just one of the greatest joys of this job. So please keep writing into me. If I can't respond, I promise you that I read them and deeply appreciate them. You can also follow me on Instagram and Twitter at Julie R. Hartman, and you can follow Dennis on Instagram at The Prager and on Twitter @DennisPrager. And as he will often cut in, you can also go to DennisPrager.com, which is the main place, as he often says, and PragerU and PragerU and Sean@DennisPrager.com. Oh my God, you did just publicly give out his, his email. Get ready for it, Sean.

It's not his private email, but if you do write to him, he'll send you a picture of his dog. His dogs, uh, dogs, uh, I saw the other dog.

Yeah, it's really cute. So there you got a new dog. Yes, but we're trying to figure out the name.

Well, I, I have picked out one that I really like.

What is it?

I didn't pick it out. Okay, but we worked at it jointly. Calvin.

I love that name.

Everybody, I've said it's a great name, and it's named after Calvin Coolidge, whom I love. Calvin.

That's such a head of PragerU thing to say.

Calvin, you got to admit. I mean, that is like—

that's such a—

it's like a sitcom. It's awesome.

That's like— that is such a PragerU presidential series thing, too. I know that you fell in love with Calvin Coolidge again recently because of the PragerU president series.

I just read an entire biography of Garfield because of the PragerU president series.

The PragerU President series is so fantastic.

I know.

We should do an episode on some of our favorite presidents and not the unknown ones like Garfield and Coolidge.

Yes. Oh, gosh.

All right. Bye, everyone.

Bye.

Shalom.

Here's something most people don't know. When Warren Buffett was just 13 years old, he didn't put his money into a savings account. While other kids were earning next to nothing at local banks, Buffett put $114 into a little-known investment. Today, that $114 would be worth over $15 million. And it wasn't a risky trade. It wasn't even insider knowledge. It was an account that's been around since 1888, and over the last 25 years, it's averaged 29% a year. That's what happens when your money is allowed to compound. Compare that to today's savings accounts, paying less than half a percent while inflation quietly eats away at your buying power. Buffett understood early: banks are great businesses, just not for savers. If you'd like to see what some investors call the 29% account, go now to secretaccount29.com. That's secret account, the numbers, 2-9 dot com. secretaccount29.com.