Guts

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hello there, everybody. Dennis and Julie. Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman for Dennis And Julie, Julie, show everybody that book. I think they'll get a lot of joy out of it.

Yes, I wanted to publicize this immediately. First of all, hello, shalom. Nice to see you as always. Great to be with all of you. This is a book that was recently published and it's called Elevator Pitches for God. It's a really, really cool book. And I'm not just saying it because I'm in it and you're in it. But it's a book that's comprised of 70 one-page essays from Jews, Christians, Muslims, atheists, people who are maybe like me and kind of, you know, an ethical monotheist. And they give a 500-word synopsis of why they believe in God or why they struggle with God but still believe that God is necessary. So this book is called Elevator Pitches for God. Dennis is in it beautifully. I'm in it.

It's really nice. I just saw it. I had seen it as a— only as an electronic thing. It's really beautiful. And by the way, we get no money out of it. So this is not an ad. Yeah, we just thought you would enjoy it. It's one page per entry.

And I have read some of these. They are absolutely fascinating. And I think the great thing about the book, in addition to the religious diversity, is also the professional and walk of life diversity. Yeah, there are physicists, chemists. Seth Dillon, who's the CEO of the Babylon Bee, is in it. Larry Elder's in it. Alan Dershowitz is in it. One of the, the writers of the show Friends is, is a contributor. The now late Senator Joseph Lieberman has a contribution in this book.

I knew him quite well.

You did? Oh, I didn't know that.

Wow.

What was he like? He was as sweet a human being as you could want to meet. And everybody— everybody— it is nice to hear. You know, he was Al Gore's running mate. It's funny, we, we were good friends and I didn't even vote for him.

Wow.

Yeah.

And did you ever talk about that with him? No.

You know why? I assume he assumed I didn't. I don't think he would think, oh, well, Dennis and I are friendly, so he'll vote for me.

Well, it's interesting that he was Al Gore's running mate because forgive me if this is unkind, but I do not have the highest opinion of Al Gore. I have a higher opinion of Senator Lieberman.

Almost everybody does.

So why would they? Well, tag team.

They're not— they're not related facts. I mean, Al Gore wanted to win, and he thought that Joe Lieberman, having such a good reputation in the country, would be a good running mate. He probably was a good running mate. I'll tell you this you'll find of interest. So I won't say who. It's not even bad, but I just won't say who. But a member of my extended family which is all Jewish, and he called me, or I called him, I don't remember, sometime before that election, and he mentioned that he'll be voting for Lieberman, for Gore-Lieberman. And he said, how could I not? You know, it's the first time a Jew would be a vice president of the United States. I remember saying something to the effect, I don't really care. Yes, I just— I can't vote for the Democratic ticket. It's— that was a very revealing moment to me because I'm not— and I don't— this is not a putdown of this person who's a wonderful human being, but I have no instinct even toward tribalism.

Well, we've discussed this on Dennis and Julie, and you have that great anecdote about the, the great Jewish, like, baseball players or something in your life.

Like, which proves something, Julie, that I have now come finally to accept. Most of us are who we are at a very early age.

We were talking about that.

I know we were. And interestingly, I, I was— I had a— because I may bring this brilliant— he's brilliant, one of these savants. He's a psychiatrist, Dr. MD, and he has clinics all over the country and they do brain scans so they could check if you have even dementia in your future, which must be pretty depressing. Oh, he says there are people who tell him, doctor, if you see it, don't tell me. It's really interesting. Yeah.

Because then also, forgive me, but if you know that it's happening, some people may think, oh, well, that's good to know so that you can prevent it. But sometimes you almost like will it into existence sooner.

Well, yeah, he thinks that you can help delay it, but in any event, I got a massive bill of health and my brain's in great shape and I thank God and my, my parents' genes for it and so on. But we were talking about, uh, he asked me about my childhood, so I told him and he said at some point at the end of our meeting He said, I, I was exactly like you. I was just different. And I thought, wow, it does start early. I was different really early. I mean, I'm teaching myself. This is my high school life. Not one night of homework did I do. Uh, um, I was corresponding with radio stations around the world. Radio Moscow sent me a book to teach myself Russian, which I started doing. I taught myself how to conduct orchestras at the New York Philharmonic Library. Is that a normal child? Exactly. And, and he, he had it in his way. And I— you mentioned to me you knew you were an adult or something at like 9. Yes, right.

Well, when I would go over for a play playdates at my friends' houses when I was like 8 or 9 years old, I was far more interested in talking with the mom for the day than the kid.

Oh yes, that's right. But here's the key, you were aware of that.

Yes.

You looked at yourself from outside of you and said, I'm different. Mm-hmm, right. You had said to me similarly about when you were 9 and you preferred to talk to your friends' parents. So the point is, or a point of it is you knew you were different. And in other words, you were aware, you know, isn't it interesting? I want to speak to my friend's parents.

Well, I think, I think a lot of— I'd be very curious to hear from the, our listeners and watchers if they can relate. But I do think a lot of people know to some extent who they are very young. In other words, I don't think this is just confined to us. For instance—

Oh, I know it's not confined.

Like, yeah, you know, people— I have a friend who's going to medical school and she said, I just knew from the time that I was able to understand what being a doctor was that I wanted to be a doctor. I would play, you know, doctor. I would—

I would—

I was fascinated by doctors. I always knew I wanted to be a talk show host. I have videos from the time that I was 5.

That's amazing.

Holding up a spoon and going, really? Welcome to the Julie Hartman Show. Yeah, there's one. Oh, I should play it. Maybe I could get it. Yeah.

I hope you have it.

I do have it. Thank the Lord I have that. It's so precious to me. But I had this globe and I would like spin the globe and then put my finger on the globe and say like, oh, well, today we're going to be talking about Mauritania. And I had this really high-pitched voice. That's what I do on Timeless.

I love that.

That's what I do on Timeless. So people, I think people have a sense, and it goes back to your fascinating question that really haunts me, uh, in addition to, uh, riveting me, but, um, about nature versus, uh, nurture. And a lot of, a lot of who we are is built in. And you and I are the biggest proponents of you charter your own destiny. You're, you know, you're in charge of yourself, but nature is a huge thing.

We're born with natures. It doesn't mean that they are determinative. That's the key. You do what you want with that nature. I mean, if you have a nature that is, by the way, negative— we've been speaking positives, perhaps— you can undo it. Otherwise, we're all robots and I could screw up a good nature.

What is an element of your nature that you had when you were little that was, as you say, negative, that you have endeavored to—

Well, I've been very open about it. I was always lazy. My father had a line because he had no problem insulting me. I want to talk about—

Yes, that's a good thing.

Yes, I want to talk about that. He said, Dennis, if— well, this is— he— it was a three-pronged assault on me. If— if— yeah, if— okay, so let's begin. I want to get the order right of the three-pronged assault. Yes. So if Dennis could walk, he won't run. If Dennis could sit, he won't walk. If Dennis could lie down, he won't sit.

You know that I sincerely don't mean to say this to compliment you. I'll be honest when I'm complimenting you. This is not one of those moments.

I don't see that because I worked on it. I figured out how to undo my naturally. It's not— see, lazy is I always call it lazy. It's more I had a nature of I'll only do what I want to do. And you might say, well, who on earth isn't born that way? But you weren't.

No, I actually wasn't. I'm actually trying to work on unraveling the opposite.

That's exactly— I know that. And so that's why I said it's— you're not an example of that. He, he would be right. I did. Look, why didn't I do schoolwork for 4 years in high school? I didn't want to.

You worked hard on other things.

I guess. But I wanted to do it. That's why better than lazy is I, I will do what I want to do.

I'm sure many people can relate to what I'm about to say, but I always thought, and to this day, still think that the easy road or doing what I want to do is a trap.

Yes, that, that my father inculcated in me. Don't take the easy way out.

Like, but I think there's something that's, that's, you know, obviously there's this kind of moral instruction of do the hard thing to better yourself. I'm all about that. But I sincerely have believed that It's not just morally right to do the hard thing or whatever, you know, better, better for you to do the hard thing, that actually the easy way is a trap. I remember in high school when a teacher would say in the rare moments at my school, you know, this, this quiz tomorrow or this test tomorrow, it's not going to be that hard. It's not a big part of your grade. It's not going, you know, study for it, but you don't have to kill yourself. I would go home and study for like 7 hours straight because I was convinced there was some kind of trick.

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But that's a kind of, you know, I've been thinking a lot lately about how people, for better or for worse, really cling to and indulge in their worldviews and in their way of doing things. And my continuing to see, you know, to just like do the absolutely hard thing even when there's an easier option, That's a kind of indulgence of an antiquated worldview that I ought to unravel a bit. But people— my point is, even when people are doing things that are wrong, it's— even if it's easier to do things that are right, it's very hard for people who are buried in their worldviews and in their ways of doing things to change.

Well, let me just say this. If you have a habit of doing the harder thing, I don't see that as a big flaw. I just want to say that.

Look, but you take my great— you— my greater point about—

yeah, well, we're all creatures of habit and we have to watch out for that. But if you have a good habit, don't worry about it. I would say as a guideline, the easy way out is not a good guideline. That, that's— I don't think most people would argue with that. When I undertook to write a 5-volume commentary on the Talmud.

Yes, you, Mr. Lazy.

Okay, all right. Well, remember, my father spoke about it in the physical realm. If I could sit, I won't stand. If I could do it, I did it. But anyway, I really chose a project of writing that was a harder way out. A, it's been the most difficult thing I've ever done, and, and I'm doing the hardest of all, the Book of Leviticus. But I, I believe this will last for ages because, well, you've read two of the volumes, you know how, how much it's worth, and I know, I know how much it's worth. But I could have written bestseller after bestseller, made much more money, and I write relatively effortlessly after all of these years of writing. Not the Bible commentary. Wow. Every sentence is a slug. I mean, you explain to people the burnt offering in Leviticus 1. Okay, and I have a riveting explanation. Riveting, just for the record.

Well, I'd be very curious to see your commentary on Leviticus 17, but we'll— we shouldn't go there right now.

Sexuality? Yes, because I already wrote 20,000 words, as you know. 20,000 words on one verse.

So totally pivoting.

Yes. So you have something on your mind?

Yes, I, I had a subject, and Dennis, as is the case with Dennis and Julie. You don't know what it is. I didn't tell you. But what I did say before the show is, I think I know how you're going to react to it, but I'm not sure. And it's thoroughly different than anything we've ever discussed.

Wow.

On Dennis and Julie, it really is.

So that's amazing because we've discussed a lot of stuff.

And I'm the human recording machine. I can go back to—

you are—

on episode 8, minute 40, we discussed whatever. By the way, it's been 2 years since we've— since we launched Dennis and Julie.

When did we meet? How long ago was that?

We met in August of 2020.

Almost 4 years.

Yeah.

That's 20% of your life. Wow.

You're right. Wait, is it?

No. Well, out of 20, it would be 40. 20.

Yeah. It's It's a lot. It's a sixth of my life.

Yeah.

And so sixth of my life I've been conservative.

Okay.

That's—

bless you. So, so go ahead. Yeah.

So I just, I just want to start by giving some background. So I met this individual at a party a few months ago. He's about your age and retired, has had a long career. And he and I just really hit it off. And it's funny because I know on this show I've discussed how I have many friends my age, you know I do. And I, and I have the best, I am, I am beyond blessed.

It's really something.

I have the best friends my age and you've met probably half of them and I know how much you love them and they love you. Um, and you're so kind to them always, which I appreciate. But I, I have a lot of friends my age, but also as you know, and the listeners know, I have friends who are like 3 times my age, obviously one of the biggest ones sitting in front of me. And so when I met this, this guy at this party, um, you know, he's married with kids, retired, you know, we just, we really hit it off as friends. And so recently we had coffee and I didn't know very much about him just besides that I really, um, he seemed like a very wise, individual, and I had no agenda with him besides just to learn from him. And we sat and had coffee for about 3 hours, and he was just telling me all about his worldview. And it was absolutely riveting. You know those people who, even if you don't always agree with their worldview, they're very sturdy in it, and like, it's just, they've tested it, it works for them. I was just sitting there listening, you know, taking notes, and I wanted to share some of it with you because it sounds very new agey. It sounds very like manifesting crystals and follow your heart and follow your dreams. But it's actually, I think, very, very in line with what you and I tend to believe. And I'll start with, with one thing. He talked to me about trusting your intuition. We haven't ever discussed intuition on Dennis and Julie, and maybe I'm wrong, but I don't— you don't strike me as the kind of guy who talks about intuition a lot because you're very, very rational. But he was, he was essentially saying that a lot of life is, is trust, getting a really good gut and trusting that gut. And that doesn't mean that you don't have moral, you know, instruction alongside that. That doesn't mean that you don't deploy your rational brain. But that's so— that was so interesting to me and really hit me because in the modern world, we have been taught not to trust our gut and not to trust our intuition. We've been told you need to like consult all of this data and do an analysis and reason and logic and think through every single decision and map it out perfectly and then make your choice. But trusting your— I think trusting your gut and your intuition is so important in honing that, because what your gut and your intuition is, is basically the accumulated wisdom and life experience of your whole life that's telling you something really fast that would take your brain longer to sort through. I have more to say. Believe me.

Do you have an example of when you've listened to your gut?

Well, I think the whole point of my bringing this up is that for a lot of my life, I didn't have a gut when I would be making decisions. In fact, when I first was deciding whether or not to work for you, I talked to a lot of people about it. And people would say to me, because, you know, I didn't, I didn't know if that was if I should do something else that summer. Frankly, I didn't, I wasn't totally conservative. I was maybe like 50% of the way there, but I wasn't totally in line with your worldview. And I didn't wanna pigeonhole myself by going on the air with you, et cetera. And so I asked for advice and people would tell me to trust my gut. And my answer to them would be, I don't have a gut. I don't know what that is because the modern world has so taught us to just run in the direction of logic and proof and data and think it through. And so I've been trying to hone that more. Do you have a— do you follow your intuition or your gut at all?

I've been thinking intensely while you were speaking. I've never used the term.

I know you haven't.

I never said, oh, well, I followed my gut and I decided to do X. Here's the reason I have suspicion of the idea. Most people do follow their gut and they make wrong decisions.

Okay, so that's what I said to him. I said, I think the problem nowadays is that people follow their feelings and their gut and they make poor choices. And he said, No, people follow their feelings. They don't follow their gut. And your feelings are different than your gut.

Right. I don't know how to make the distinction.

I think in the short time that I've been trying to hone it, I think I can.

Okay. And I'm not putting you on the spot, but can you define that difference? I would like to know when your gut and your feelings have ever been in, in, in a collision course?

Well, I don't want to get personal, but, um, sometimes you want to do something and sometimes you know that you shouldn't.

Uh-huh. Okay, so your feelings go to X, but your gut tells you it's a bad idea?

Yes.

What's the difference? And that's fine, I'm just trying to hone in. What's the difference between gut and conscience?

Hmm. I think they're all like first cousins. I think they're all sort of related, but siblings. Yeah, or siblings. I think your conscious— conscience, excuse me, is more of your, your moral barometer.

And you could be anything.

And well, gut, gut, I just think is like, Yeah, gut can be anything.

What is that? Did you ever hear the saying? What is it? I don't remember the full saying. And if you don't remember it, you obviously can't give it correctly. But the heart has reasons that the mind is never aware of, or something to that effect.

I'm not aware of that saying.

Yeah, I can look it up. But it's It's essentially that. Instead of gut, that one's heart. But the, the heart might know. Look, my mother told her mother at the age of 17, I met the man I'm gonna marry tonight. Mm-hmm. That's gut.

Totally. Okay, but that's so important.

By the way, I had that too. I, I, I—

Interesting.

Yes. I didn't even believe in that.

I—

that— so I can't say it was my intellect telling me how terrific she was. We had met for 10 minutes. Mm-hmm.

No, I think that's a great example.

I know it is a great example, and it's helpful obviously to anybody listening and to me. So, so what, what did this person say to you about the gut?

Well, we were, we were discussing, I was talking to him about my life and he was talking to me about his life. And he said, you know, a lot of the way that he was observing with me, that a lot of the way that I tend to reason through things or make decisions or think about things—

Denies the gut.

Yes, intensely logical. And I like—

That's me too.

I know it is, but I will lay out like 5 scenarios and I'll be like, Well, I could do this because, you know, it could lead to that. But then there's this downside, or I could do that and then maybe this could happen.

And then I will say that over the course of a lifetime, that approach is better than following your gut.

Of course. But I don't think it's a binary.

And I do think that's fair.

We do, we do tend in life.

That's why I ask you, when, if it's not a binary, when do we, have you ever found that they were in conflict?

Hmm. Again, I'm so sorry that this is a shabby answer. I'm so new to this, this exploration of the relationship between your gut and your mind and your emotions. I'm just like literally dabbling in it right now. So I can't give you a good answer. But, you know, like, I actually think this whole idea of trusting your gut is very godly. Because there's so much of life that we can't explain. And I think a big mistake of modern thinking is that everything can be reduced to a scientific proof or a scan or, you know, a materialist kind of explanation. Look at the realm of dreams, for instance. If there's, if there's one thing that I have learned from my time in therapy, periodically going to therapy, I, I've learned how important and revelatory my dreams are. And I used to go to my, my therapist and, and talk, you know, come with a dream that I had the night before. And I think I could like figure out sort of what it meant or sort of what it indicated about me. But it was a mystery to me. And I would go to my therapist and, you know, I have a very good therapist. Abigail Shrier wrote a really important book recently called Bad Therapy about how many bad therapists there are. Are you ready to lose weight but not sure where to start? Let me tell you why Dennis chose PhD Weight Loss and Nutrition. First, he says Dr. Ashley Lucas has her PhD in chronic disease and sports nutrition. The program is science-based. The PhD program starts with nutrition But as Dennis says, there is so much more. They know that 90% of permanent change comes from the mind, and they work on eliminating the reasons you gained this weight in the first place. There aren't any shortcuts, pills, injections, just solid science-based nutrition and behavior. Dennis Prager says he has seen results over several weeks. If you're ready to lose weight for the last time, Call 1-864-644-1900 to get started, or online at myphdweightloss.com. Do what Dennis did and just make the appointment for your one-on-one consultation call today. That's 864-644-1900. You know, I have a good one, but I would go to him and tell him this dream and he would would totally make it make sense. And I would go, oh my gosh, that's exactly right. I didn't process that that's how I was feeling. And I didn't process that that person in my life has such, you know, outsized influence on me, or that that event or something. And so there's this whole realm of our being. And again, I think this is actually a very— this is not a new agey, you know, fluffy crystals thing. I actually think it's a very godly thing. That there's a lot of the element of the subconscious. There's a lot about our instincts that we can't explain. And I think it's good, paired with moral instruction and rational thought, to also hone in on those instincts and trust them. See, this is why I was really excited to bring this up, because we've never talked about this on D&J, and you're such a rational, Dude, your whole— look at the title of your Torah commentary, Rational Bible. I feel like you have some kind of skepticism.

No, I'm saying when I said to you, my gut told me this was the woman. Mm-hmm. An idea that my faculty of reason had always rejected. Love at first sight struck me as only in the movies. I actually did an hour of radio on it. The number of happily married couples wherein at least one of them had love at first sight is very large. It's just, I think it's the majority.

And that couldn't have been just, look, obviously Sue is very beautiful, even though she dodges those compliments.

I meet beautiful women every day. I'm a public figure.

Exactly. Which is why I believe that it was more than just your eyes telling you that this was a— you know, I— again, what I'm about to say, listening to myself say it, I laugh because it sounds so new agey. But energy— God, I said I sound like a—

like, oh yeah, energy.

Yeah, a yogi, like Zach has a question, meditating on a mountain.

What's your question, Zach? Is there a difference between following your gut and following your heart? Is there a difference between following your gut and following your heart? I think there is. The heart is the seat of emotions. Uh, there's a difference between following your gut and following your emotions. For some people, maybe they're conflated, so I can't address that, but I, I, I could easily make that separation. Or as you put it, it is binary. And here, so my emotions want me to have dessert. So I haven't had dessert in 6 months. So it's not my gut that tells me don't eat dessert. It's my, purely my faculty of reason. You don't want to get type 2 diabetes. You want to hopefully lose some weight. It's not healthy for you. Sugar is junk, etc., etc. So is that a fair example?

Yes, but I think, I think we're falling into a trap in this conversation of needing to define it. Well, no, actually, I actually think it's good to define it.

Sometimes it's the trap.

The trap is you were— we've been talking a lot about emotions and then logic/reason. And then I think we're talking about this like the gut is in equal proportion to those two. I think in the whole, like, cast of characters in your body, your, your emotions and your rational thought are like the main characters. They're like the Adam and Eve. And then your gut is like the Cain or the Abel.

So you see us as basically the executive, the Senate and the House.

Yeah, that's another good analogy.

Or if you will, the executive, the legislature, and a better example, and the—

so which one? So obviously, obviously the court is the rational mind.

Well, it's the— yeah, okay, that's fair. So that would be the rational mind, the legislature being obedient enough theoretically to the public is the emotional. And then the executive is the guy left is the gut.

But I'm saying I think your gut, it shows up every single day. You deal with and you battle and you encounter your emotions and your rational, logical brain every single day. But not every day do you encounter your gut. I, and that's why I said it's more of like a supporting character, but very important supporting character.

So here I'm trying, I obviously do best with examples. So I have always maintained that I have a virtually perfect goodness radar or goodness monitor. As I often use this example, and if I have on Dennis and Julie, let me know. That my dear, dear friend Joseph, who was a very good human being aside from everything else— we know each other since our sophomore year in high school. We would both meet someone for the first time. He would inevitably comment on their intelligence. Wow, that guy's really bright. And I would inevitably comment on their goodness. Mm-hmm. Because I, I think bright people are a dime a dozen. Good people are much rarer than bright people. The universities are filled with bright bad people, in my opinion. So when I have this reaction, you know, I don't fully trust this person, Is that my gut?

Yes, that's your gut. Okay, so that's what I'm trying to define here, because the, the way that I define your gut is your accumulated life wisdom.

That's good.

That is integrated into your body, and it, it literally— it's not just like the big things, like, oh, I learned something when I got fired from that job, or when I dated this person. I think it's— I think your gut is comprised of a million little, little, little, little things that you don't even notice that you're noticing, but they somehow make an impression on you and they tell you something about a person or a situation. And then they go right into that gut, trickle down right in there. And then in a moment when it's appropriate, You feel it and your gut is telling you something.

And so it really isn't feelings at all.

No.

I mean, I mean, to answer Zach's question, it really is different. Let's put it that way. It's clear to me. In other words, when I would leave meeting a person and I just knew I can't fully trust that person, That's not emotion. That wasn't emotion.

That's not emotion. And that's not logic either.

I may have enjoyed being with them.

Yes. I mean, how many— and this is what I was saying about energy, which again, I'm just laughing at myself. I'm like picturing myself going, oh, I'm sitting with like, you know, rocks, rocks and incense and all of that on the mat. But you know what, like, I love dabbling in this because there's something to learn from every, every worldview. There really is.

Yes, correct.

And so I What I like to do with people and what I like to do with worldviews is I like pick stuff sort of like the way that the gut does. But I think energy is really important. And energy— my friend has this saying, people lie, energy doesn't.

Huh.

And I think that's related to your gut because I mean, how many times have people been in a job interview when— or how many times have someone has been interviewing someone in a job interview and that person has a fantastic resume.

Yep, yep.

They're totally polite.

Right.

They're, you know, whatever.

But it's not, you know, enough for you.

But you just, you get a little creepy vibe.

Or the person without a great resume.

Exactly. Or you have someone who you're like, oh, I'm just gonna, you know, spend 20 minutes interviewing this person, whatever, to check it off. And then that person, there's something about them that really registers with you. I think that's a lot of the world and we discount that that's a lot of the world. It's—

Well, we— Worse, you're saying we discount that it is a valid part of the world and valuable. Oh, well, obviously if it's valid, it's valuable, right?

It's sort of like how, you know, how animals can sense or sniff out danger.

Yes.

I really believe there's a lot of that with with human beings, you know.

So I wonder, what organ do we use to sniff out danger? You— it's really a debate between the eyes and the ears because we don't smell. I mean, a person has terrible body odor, it turns us off. Obviously not going to hire them. But so it's not smell, it's not taste. You don't taste another human being. And what's the fifth sense? Touch. You're not touching the person you're interviewing, so to speak. So here's to develop your theme more, because I'm on board now that I know it. What organ, what sensory organ do we use more to inform our gut? Our eye or our ear?

Ear.

That's what I think. That's what I've always said, always since I began radio. The ear is deeper than the eye. The eye is to protect you. Oh yes, the eye is the seat of emotion. If you watch— if I describe to you somebody was tortured, I hate to go there, but I'm going there. And you read about it, it's not the same as seeing it. Or you hear about it. So emotionally, the eye is more powerful. What is it? A picture is worth a thousand words. Did you ever hear that saying?

Yes.

Okay, so that's true, but depth is the ear. Had I met Sue and I was blind, I would have the exact same reaction. Had I met her and I was deaf and I couldn't speak to her in any way, I don't think I would.

Excellent, excellent analysis. That's, that's so true. And I think, I mean, obviously I wasn't there. I would have loved to have been there watching. It would have been so cool to like have that on video. Do you ever think about I mean, the first time we met is on video, but you think about those encounters that change your life, right? And you wish you could watch. But I would imagine, not being there though, that when you met Sue, you probably didn't have a really long conversation. You probably didn't, you know, learn about her. You weren't given the full opportunity to learn about her depth. But I bet there were things that you picked up in her.

Totally tiny things.

Yeah, I think that's right.

Well, they weren't, no, they were tiny signals, but they weren't tiny things.

Well, exactly.

They were huge.

Right. Well, that's the whole point of your gut. Yeah, that's right. The tiny signals amount to something huge that you ought to trust.

Right.

But another thing that this individual was saying to me in our 3-hour coffee, and by the way, on this note on energy, You know, sometimes when I talk to my, my age friends about how many friends I have who are not my age, I think they get it. But some of them, they're not weirded out, but some of them just like, they don't really understand.

Right.

And they're like, well, why would someone who's married with kids and retired and you met once at a party meet you for coffee? Like, is he gonna give you a job? No. Are you gonna, you know, like they, They don't, and I don't blame them. I don't think a lot of people would understand why that, you know, coffee would happen. But again, at the risk of sounding like a total hippie yogi on a mountain with rocks and incense, I think it's just an energy thing. I think he sensed in me and I sensed in him that we have no agenda with each other. We want nothing out of each other besides to just be two people who have a really interesting life conversation. And so that's how I just wanted to throw that out there. And that's true of a lot of people in my life. It's just an energy thing.

But well, I should add what you don't think about because you're female. It's rarely— it happens, but it's rarely only energy or only intellect or what have you. There, there is an element of the opposite sex that is a factor.

See, well, I think you're right, but I think that element is the complementary nature of the, of the, of the sexes. If you're still waiting to buy gold, sitting on the sidelines could cost you precious gains. This is Julie Hartman for Amped Coin and Bullion, Dennis's choice for precious metals. The current economic climate could make buying gold a very desirable safe haven commodity. The government's overprinting of money, the fluctuation of interest rates, and high inflation can impact the value of gold, and that's why you should seriously consider buying now. Dennis has been working with Amped Coin and Bullion's owner Nick Grovich for years. And he says that he is so glad that he jumped into precious metals market when he did. Nick has been in the industry for over 42 years, and he's proud of providing transparency and fair pricing to build long-term relationships. Nick and his team have always had Dennis's back. He says Dennis recommends what's in his best interest, and he doesn't worry about Amped Coin and Bullion's hidden commissions or huge markups. If you're interested in buying or selling, call Amped Coin and Bullion for a free coin performance review. 1-800-221-7694. AmericanFederal.com. AmericanFederal.com.

That's fine.

Like, I, I do notice a lot of my older friends are male. Not all, but many of them. And I think that's— and a lot of my younger friends are female, primarily, as they should be, right?

As your closest friend should be same-sex, the vast majority.

But, but I think there's this, like, I always say, I feel really calm when I'm around you.

That's great.

And I feel great when I'm with my female friends. And at times I feel calm, but there's sort of a different level of— right, there's masculine energy. And, and I like that.

Right. And men like the feminine energy.

We should play a drinking game with how many times Julie says energy or like another hippie term in the Dennis Prager Hour.

So you have more on that?

I do have more. Yeah. And I won't belabor it, you know, obviously if you want to move on. But it was so interesting to me. There are two other things I want to talk about. The first is what this individual was saying about projection and negative thoughts. Because I was talking with him about some of my— I am really an optimistic person, usually sort of my modus operandi. But of course, like any human being, I have doubts and fears about my life. And he said to me, he said, Julie, so much of life is projection. So much of life is RF. Is projection. It was not Robert Florczak. No, this is a totally different— this is a totally different person, though. It does sound like—

do you want to develop that point?

I do want to develop that point.

I had not thought about it.

This is someone who I was meeting for the second time. I met him at a party and we just had a great conversation.

And this is a good example of why I say I, I have sort of cheated in my intellectual growth because I have something virtually no other writer has— an audience of millions to bounce my ideas off.

But, you know, you're absolutely right. But I think something else that people discount is that you and I discuss a lot the destitute state of our country and how many people are depressed and jaded and radical and thinking they're, you know, Oompa Loompas instead of their gender, etc. And yes, that is absolutely true. But there are a lot of really good, wise people out there. I really believe that.

Correct.

And I know that some people may look at me in my position, and I'm so lucky to have this platform and you, and you've introduced me to a lot of fantastic people, and I am not discounting that. But I have also on my own, just through life, like, like this person who I had coffee with, just encountered wise people.

Well, you reached out to me, right? You're the one who sent the email.

But I just— I just—

that's to your credit.

I just want to say, and I hope this doesn't sound self-aggrandizing, I have so many things in my life to work on, but I will give myself credit for this one thing. When I encounter someone who I think is wise and has something to teach me, I not only become friends with them, I integrate them into my life. And everyone can do that. Everyone. And don't— like, it doesn't matter age, sex, American, not American, walk of life. Like, find those people and learn from them and integrate them.

Yeah.

I can see you're riveted by this.

No, I am riveted.

Yes. You're yawning.

Yes. It's an allergy yawn, believe it or not. But it's because I wanted to clear my ears. But the, uh, your, your point is— one second, I, I— before you commented on my thought, I had a very important point. What was your last point?

Find wise people and integrate them into your life.

Okay, I do have an important point, and they're around. It takes a special person to search for such people. So you see, and the point is not to compliment you, the point is to make a point. It's like whenever people say to me, you've changed my life, I always tell them, you get 51% at least. Because how many people have heard these ideas and nothing happened? Well, I think you go shopping for wise people because you love wisdom. How many people your age do that?

Well, that's— I'll take that. Thank you. I mean, I do love wisdom. And, and I think that a lot of listeners of this show, because they're listening to this show, are the type of people who would, who would be those wisdom seekers. But I do think also we, we now live in a world where it's deemed weird to reach out to people. You know, really?

Why?

Yes.

Why? Because of social media?

I, I don't know why. I, I'll get, I'll give you an example though. I mean, I, I know that not with this specific, you know, coffee thing, but I know that a lot of people, not just my age, but kind of in a lot of different spectrums of life would be like, why are you getting coffee with this person you met once? Why are you so such close friends with, you know, I mean, for us it's different cuz we do this show together, but you know, with Robert Florczak who lives in Germany and he's in our, you know, why are you such close friends with this? 74-year-old artist in Germany. Like, there's a lot of, there's a lot of judgment with those kinds of things. There really is. Well, if you can't see like a direct transactional line to keep—

back to the point we didn't develop, which I thought was so important, who's the per— this person who said to you, we're almost always projecting.

Yes, I want to follow up on that.

Well, Maybe they're projecting. I have no interest in a 74-year-old buddy, so why would you? Yeah, right. I mean, is that not the case?

Yes, I think it is. But I'll give you another example. You know, I think a lot of people look back fondly on their old teachers from high school but then don't reach out to them. Reach out to them. And they worry, they go, oh, well, what would I say? You know, what would we talk about? Or I have no reason, you know, to interact or reach out with them besides just to reminisce. Let's say it is just to reminisce. That's the greatest reason ever. Don't be afraid. You know, the worst that people can say is no. The worst that can happen is you don't make that connection. But maybe it's just among my generation. Maybe what I'm diagnosing is kind of unique to my age group. But I can tell you with certainty there's a lot of just like weird judgment with sort of non-transactional relationships.

Well, that does lead into the projection. So develop the projection idea.

So I was very interested. I'm glad I was sitting there riveted the whole 3 hours. But yes, with this. So I was speaking with this individual not at length, but just a little bit about some of my doubts and my fears in life. And he said to me, so much of life is projection. And he said, when you get a negative thought, whether it's, you know, I'm not going to succeed at my career or I'm not going to get married or I'm not going to be happy or I'm not going to X, Y, Z. He said, when you get a negative thought like that, catch it and flip it. And I'm sitting there going like, what? Catch it and flip it? What does that mean? He goes, catch the negative thought, recognize that you're having this thought, and totally flip it and go, no, no, no, it's not that I'm not going to succeed at my career. I am going to succeed at my career. It's not that I'm not going to find someone. I am going to find someone. Because he said so much in life is what you are projecting. People, it really is your worldview. I mean, two people can walk into the same situation the exact same reality and come out with very different outcomes because of the way that they viewed that reality. And so, but then I said to him, I said, well, you know, I'm all about, you know, trying to ward away negative thoughts as much as possible, but what if the negative thoughts are true? You know, what if it's a good thing for me to worry about some of the things I'm worrying about? And he said, you know, of course, you in your life, you can't just overdose on positivity and optimism. Everybody needs an appropriate amount of skepticism and doubt because that's what propels your life forward. Why do people save and invest money? It's because they have some doubt that they will, you know, or that they have some fear that they'll be financially destitute one day. Why do a lot of us, a lot of our decisions are motivated by this, by doubt and fear. But he said, Bad thoughts can cripple you. And you think that turning it and making it a positive thought is an illusion. But sometimes the negative thought is just as much an illusion as the positive thought. But there's a big difference. If you're thinking positively, you're projecting positively, and it's more likely that that's going to come back on you because what you put out, you get.

Oh, yes. So the, the only issue I have with it is the definition of projection, because I've always thought of projection as, like, for example, I cheat in business, so I assume everybody's cheating in business. That's projection, where I'm projecting my inner life or my life onto others. That's how I understand projection.

Well, I think that's an element of projection, certainly.

Right. But that is not the projection you meant.

No, no. I think the projection of your thoughts and the way that you carry yourself and your goals. So if you walk into—

in other words, you are what you think.

Yes. I really believe that. And it's interesting that you're a little skeptical. Well, I think your life— I think who you are in your life is the biggest proof of that.

Go on.

You, you have, you have worked hard to have a happy temperament. You've worked hard to be rational. You've worked hard to integrate divine moral revelations and truths into your being. And then look at what you've accomplished and look at the way that you carry yourself. Nobody just handed you a radio show. Nobody just like handed you a deal on the Torah commentary. Nobody just handed you your your disposition. You may— you made that solid up here, and then you have reaped the benefits of that in your life.

All right, I buy that. It's important. I have a different way of saying it.

Okay.

Which is not necessarily better. I'm just saying I have a different one. You are what you want to be. Yes, that's how I put it. So I basically— I gave a speech on how to be courageous because a lot of people would like to be and they're not. And my essential message is so simple sounding, it almost sounds simplistic. Simple is a positive and simplistic is a negative, for those curious. And it is that if you want— here's the answer: the way to be courageous is to say, "I want to be courageous." That's Aristotle.

I just interviewed Spencer Klavan on my show about Aristotle, and Aristotle essentially said, be who you want to be.

Right.

If you want to be courageous, go out and be courageous.

Right. You just become it. That's right.

Put yourself in those situations. It's sort of like a fake it till you make it mantra.

That's right.

I never liked that mantra because it—

Oh, I love it. As you know.

Yeah. Because I don't like—

I'm a behaviorist. Yeah, but that's, by the way, from the 12-step program, you know, sort of fake sobriety. You'll become sober, right? You, in your heart, you may want to drink, but if indeed you don't take one, you're— you become sober, right?

But I think what this— what this guy was saying about projection is the way you just defined it. Like, you, you become who you want to be, or you are who you want to be. I actually want to pause.

That's right. Yes.

Well, yeah, I want to— this is what's so great about Dennis and Julie, we, we develop this in real time. Yes, that's true, but some people want a lot of things that they're, that they're not.

Well, if I would say I want to be a concert pianist, which I would love to be, by the way, I knew at a very young age, that's why I studied conducting. I did not start musical instruments early enough to become a virtuoso. And I wasn't going to do 6 hours a day of practice. And even then, without the raw talent, I don't know how far you can get. So if you have an unrealistic desire to be something That, that doesn't help. Dennis Prager here with a man I have come to admire for his work. So when I asked him, what do you do? This is the title he gave: Wealth Architect.

Very simply put, I am a wealth architect that helps my clients accelerate the way they grow your wealth. It's not how much you make, it's how much you keep. The Internal Revenue Code is embedded with a number of things that you can take advantage it's what I call playing tax chess. We take the time to play tax chess in your favor. We give our clients unbiased, independent advice across all areas in their financial life because we have no incentive to sell anything.

I was taken enough and impressed enough to have you do my work, and you have in fact saved me a serious amount of money. CharlesDombek.com/DennisPrager. Desire to be something, that doesn't help. In this regard, I used to watch the Academy Awards. When they became political, when the left politicized them, I stopped watching. I could get politics in the New York Times. What do I need to watch the Academy Awards for? But I remember how often it was almost always an actress. So a woman would get Best Supporting Actress or Best Actress Academy Award, which is the biggest thing you can get in Hollywood. And many of them would get up and say something to the effect, so I'm saying to some girl sitting out there in Kansas You dream it, you'll become it. Look, I am proof. And it drove me crazy. One woman a year gets the Best Actress award. That's one out of, at this point, 165 billion people. You have a better chance of winning a lottery than getting an Academy Award. I mean, I, I don't know if that statistic That's not exactly true, but I'm, I'm just saying.

I'm so glad we're talking about this because I do think there is a distinction. So to go back for a moment, we're saying that you are who you want to be or you become who you want to be. The distinction is, you know, as you say, sort of professionally, like if you want to be an astronaut or you want to be an Academy Award-winning, that may not happen. But I think in the realm of character and to a great extent, to a great extent in the realm of professionalism, I really believe that too.

All right.

To—

in America, where you can— that's right, where it's merit-based.

Exactly.

In America, and where you can work hard, and you know you will.

See, that's— as this whole conversation was happening, I was just thinking, like, I'm so lucky that I can even, like, talk about this, you know? I'm so lucky that I live in a country— and sadly, the situation is— or this, um, our circumstances are changing very much. We're getting away from merit, you know, away from freedom. But still, I'm so lucky to live in a country where I can be who I want to be. You know, if I work hard enough at myself, if I work on all these things I'm talking about— my gut, projection, energy, good thoughts, you know, taking the hard way, or what, all these things— I'm so lucky I even get to do that and have the possibility of having a great outcome. There are people all around the world who, no matter how hard they tried to work on themselves, they wouldn't be able to move their life forward in a meaningful way because of the constraints of their country and in their culture. We're so goddamn lucky that we can do that here. And there's a Salman Rushdie quote that I recently learned and I loved. And he says, our lives tell us who we are.

That's true.

That is so true. I mean, I'm only 24 years old, as you know, but I look back on my life and when I identify the really positive things and the things that maybe I wish were different and that I worked on, I go, Yeah, that kind of checks out. That is who I am. Those— I do have those good qualities which led to this, and I do have those things I need to work on which led to that. My life is a pretty accurate tale of who I am.

So you'll love this saying that I heard many years ago: people judge others by their behavior, and they judge themselves by their motives. So Rushdie's statement is, you are— you see what you've become, or whatever that was. Yes, if you, if you are able to see your behavior. We have a scene in the great video For Goodness' Sake that— the reason I met Alan, and very funny video, very funny. It's fantastic. It's about goodness. It's on an just go Dennis Prager, for goodness' sake. It's a free video on the internet and kids will love it. So I have— I developed a scene of people just rolling their shopping carts and they would hit other cars and scratch them. They didn't bother thinking. And then I have them watch that behavior on a video and they're so embarrassed. So the trick, à la Rushdie, if that's what he was saying, is to see how you act, not what you mean. People who let their shopping carts roll down the parking lot don't mean ill, but they don't monitor their behavior.

I'm realizing that this conversation relates to a classic Dennis Prager and a classic Dennis and Julie conversation, and that is thoughts versus actions. And you have stipulated that your thoughts don't matter.

That's right.

Nearly as much as you have even gone so far as to say they don't matter at all.

At times in much of life, they don't matter at all. That's my belief. Right.

Sometimes compared with your actions.

Right.

And I totally agree with you. That we need to judge people on their actions and not judge ourselves. And judge ourselves.

That's why when you say, I meant well, it's usually not a good answer, right?

No, you, you have to judge people based on the— and yourself, yourselves, based on their actions instead of their thoughts or their motives. Because what do we live with? We, we live with actions. We don't live with motives. That's the stuff on the ground that we have to deal with is people's actions. But I think you're totally right about that. And you're totally right that we shouldn't judge people based on their thoughts, because that's tyrannical, you know, but also because of this actions point. However, I think what's important about this conversation is that I do think your thoughts informs your actions. The way that you think of yourself, the way that you think about life, apropos of this projection point, it's everything with how you live. It really is. I mean, if you walk into a room thinking, I'm not good enough, I'm not talented, No one likes me. You know, nothing is going to work out for me. For me. That's what you're going to get in return.

That's fair. I plead guilty to not thinking about that more because I'm so behavior-oriented. But that's where thought matters. When I say thought doesn't matter, My classic one is, again, it's a scene from Goodness Sake based on the caller who called me during my first few years. Dennis, I'm a lousy son. Why are you a lousy son? My mother, I take care of her. She's elderly and sick, and I'm the only support for her. It takes up a big chunk of my life. And Dennis, There are times I wish she'd finally die from her illness. And he called up to tell me he's a lousy son, and I told him he's a great son because that thought doesn't matter. It's his behavior toward his mother that matters.

Right.

So it's on that basis that I say thoughts don't matter. Bad thoughts don't matter if you don't act on them, and good thoughts don't matter if you don't act on them. Them. Even you'd agree with that?

Yes, I think those thoughts are sort of in the realm of, like, life circumstance. But yeah, I'm glad I brought this up because it really was life-changing hearing it, and it forced me to reconsider some of the ways that I go about things.

Wow. Well, give it— you want to give an example before we say goodbye? I mean, can you give an example of the— yeah, you said it's changed the way you, you think about things. So is there an example?

Yes. Well, I'll give you a few from the few days that I've been thinking about this. Another thing that this individual said is test the system. So he called all of these things like spiritual secrets. And by the way, he believes in God. He's what I would call an ethical monotheist. And a lot of these things he says sounds very hippie and new agey. But as I've indicated, I think they're very much in accordance with God. But one of the things he said was like, test the system a little bit with both your gut and your thoughts. So just see what happens.

You know, what does it mean, test the system?

Well, you know, kind of go about your everyday life and don't be obsessed with it, but be kind of attuned to your gut. And he said with positive thoughts, he said, you know, don't be obsessive with it and thinking I'm amazing, I'm made of gold, everything is great, everything is going to be peaches and roses for the rest of my life. That's, you know, that's crazy. But he said just test it out. Like, You know, if you're going into something and maybe you're feeling a little doubtful of yourself or not good about yourself, catch that thought, flip it, make it positive, and go into that moment and just see what happens. And I can't, I can't give you like this grand story that I walked into a room and I had this positive thought and then I got, you know, a $5 million contract to be the next Ben Shapiro. Like, that didn't happen. But I, but I've seen in these few days, just kind of when I'm making decisions, trust, listening to my gut, and it's worked out appropriately well. Can I end on a, on a final thing? Sorry, I know I'm just going and going and going. You can tell me.

Oh no, it's obviously, it deeply affected you. And I hope it's affected listeners.

I think what I've realized is that a lot of life is balancing contradictions. And in this whole discussion about your gut and your energy and good thoughts, I'm realizing that this is another prime example where you can't just— the takeaway of this conversation isn't go out and with everything you do, trust your gut. Or, and the takeaway is not with everything you do have intensely positive thoughts and never have any doubts or fears, because doubts and fears are good. But I think the key to life is appropriately balancing those contradictions. And, and you have to do that in all of life. You have to balance working hard with having fun. You have to balance saving money with investing or spending money. Exactly. You need to you need to focus on career versus personal life. By the way, look at religion. Look at how many contradictions are reconciled in religion, specifically with Christianity. You have to pay attention to this world, but also think about the next world. You have to balance grace and mercy with exacting punishment. Everywhere in life, you have to have the appropriate balance. But these are just things I hope people like me can consider as part of balancing. This is very different. As I said, Dennis and Julie, we've never talked about this kind of stuff.

I'm going to think about it a lot because it's not my instinct, as you know. That's why you did more of the talking, which is fine.

I feel kind of bad about that.

No, but it's perfectly fine. Because you had more to say about it.

Well, I'm sure we'll follow up.

The, the projection line, it still gets me because, as I said, it's always pejorative that I've heard it. People project onto others what they do.

But that, but that can be— if you harness that for goodness, if you harness that for goodness, it will work out well.

Yeah, okay. Everything can be harnessed.

Yep. You can reach me at julie@julie-hartman.com. I'm so curious, especially to hear your thoughts about this episode, if you have any. And you can follow me on Instagram and Twitter @JulieRhartman. You can follow Dennis @TheDennisPrager on Instagram and @DennisPrager on Twitter. And we'll see you right here on the Julie Hartman YouTube channel every Sunday for Dennis and Julie, 1:00 Pacific, 4:00 Eastern. Thanks so much.

Thank you.

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