How to Judge

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com. I'm not going to say hi everybody, which I usually do. I'm going to say hello, ladies and gentlemen, in protest against United Airlines. Was it United? I think, yeah, United announced— was it? Which airline was it? I think it was United. They will no longer say ladies and gentlemen.

Oh, come on.

Oh, absolutely. Well, there's no company more woke than United Airlines.

I know this. Yes. They said that 50% of their pilot class would be women and people of color. By the way, can I pause and say something quickly?

Can I just say what this is? Dennis and Julie.

That's right.

Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. And since we do believe in binary, I'm not going to tell you which one is which. Yes, it was Delta. Oh, thank you. Correct. Delta is in a race with, with United to the bottom.

That's right. OK. Yeah, I do want to say something. And I actually, for the first time, want to ask directly for the viewers' help. I mean, always with Dennis and Julie, we want your comments, of course, and your responses, but I actually need some advice. I picked up a bit of a smoking habit in Europe when I was on my trip.

Cigarettes?

Cigarellos. See, I was like—

Did you inhale?

I was like a Dennis Prager protégé and my own protégé, and I basically— anyway, I did— they're cigarellos. I didn't want to do cigarettes, and I didn't want to do cigars.

What did you inhale?

Well, see, you've tried to teach me how to do cigars for as long as you've known me. And it's all— it's never been intuitive to me. I, I don't know what that means. Did I inhale? Yes. I like the smoke went in my mouth.

Right.

And there was one time when I coughed very heavily. But I don't smoke anymore. I quit, you know, like, and it wasn't hard to quit because it was— it's not even a habit. It was, you know, it was just something I did in Europe. But 5 days ago or 6 days ago, when I noticed how hoarse my voice was, I was like, oh, I'm, I'm just not going to do this again. But it's still quite hoarse. Now, I do talk show hosting as a job. You know, I have friends visiting, so I'm chatting all day with my friends when I come home from work. So perhaps it's just hoarseness.

No, but you haven't had this before.

No, I've never had this.

Right, exactly.

So help Dennis and Julie listeners, please.

So is there anything you could do? Yeah, yeah, I have learned a lot from listeners with their home remedies and so on.

No, it's really, it's really a blessing of our job. And see, here's what's funny. I'm about to make this thing a whole macro topic, but people who are in the public eye, this is what we—

but this is why we're so compatible as friends, as co-hosts, making micro into macro topics.

You know, Morgan, who I brought here and I had her on my show, she said, she said, you and Dennis are so funny because you'll be talking about a rubber band or you'll be talking about, you know, and then you'll go, "It's so interesting, you know, people who use rubber bands, or how are rubber bands made? Do people who make rubber bands, when they see that—" Do they also make paper clips? Do they also make paper clips? And when they see people using them, do they get a kind of satisfaction of their product that they've made, or do they think it's superfluous because rubber bands and paper clips aren't a big part of our lives. That wasn't as good as my— our other macro topics. But you hear the point.

We take something, we make it macro. So that's our nature. We're not even complimenting.

So you're doing it right now.

You're like, that's our nature.

Anybody who wouldn't know us would think it's highly pretentious. That's why I said it's our nature.

No, they would think that. No, I understand that.

Yes.

And by the way, or on a more charitable level, Just idiosyncratic. Yes, that's what it is. Idiosyncratic. It is.

Oh, I know it is. I mean, I— it's so interesting. See, I want to follow back on the other macro one, but now I'm about to make another macro.

Well, why did you want help from the listeners with regard to your voice?

But it's so interesting with friends, you know, like they have to accept your natures. My friends.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's unbelievable. I was just— I was Hold on, hold on. I just want to finish the first thought of the last 6 that we've gotten to in 6 minutes, not in 4 minutes.

This is why we never struggle for topics.

Yes. So do you want advice on conquering hoarseness?

I do, because of course I'd love for you to write in to me.

By the way, have you swallowed honey? I'm not joking. Well, we have some right there.

Yeah, yeah, maybe.

Well, you could do it right now on camera. I'm not sure everybody will be fascinated.

Why not?

I mean, it's just not that interesting. Oh, I think it's fascinating.

But yeah, no, I could do that. But also, um, I had a point about cigars and cigarillos.

Um, by the way, they're so common. You want to know the test on whether, you know, you've inhaled seriously? If you can breathe the smoke out your nose than you've inhaled.

I'm testing it now, even though I don't have stuff.

I really can't do it now. Yeah. Okay. Uh, you raised a question that could end up taking the hour. I hope it doesn't, but it— so I have been open with you and obviously therefore with those who listen. I have been only in the last couple of years, which is— oh, I'm disappointed in me because it's so basic and I didn't realize this sooner. That's what I say to myself. Dennis, you pride yourself on having at least given thought to the biggest issues of life. This is one of the biggest and you didn't think about it. I've thought about human nature all of my life, but I didn't distinguish it from our own individual nature till the last couple of years.

Yes, I know this. And that makes you—

oh, it, it plagues me more each day, but it does something else. What you alluded to in one sentence it makes you more patient with people.

That's very true. That's very true. You know what we were saying earlier, that many people who wouldn't know us would find our make the rubber band about some macro topic, they would find that to be— to be—

you said pretentious, pompous.

Yes. You know, I think, I think I've had friends who have had to adjust to this with me. And here's another thing. Yes, we have natures. I've always been this way. I've always been extremely curious. I've always been very attuned to life. I'm obsessed with life. That's really what it is. And I know you are too. I am truly obsessed with life. I think all of this is really cool. And even the evil and the hard and the dark parts, that is, I hate to say that's cool, but that is utterly captivating to me. And a lot of people, and I don't begrudge them, maybe don't find life as interesting. Like they're kind of going through the motions. I tend to have friends who, like me, find life to be interesting. But nevertheless, they've, I know they've had to adjust to this with me in the same way that I've had to adjust with some things with them. Where sometimes if they don't want to talk about the macro big subjects of life, they want to talk more about everyday things or gossip. Sometimes I find that I have to adjust to that, and I can't judge them for wanting to talk about those things because they don't judge me for wanting to talk about—

Well, so you came ahead of it. You came into this 50 years ahead of me.

Yes, that's right. But also it's our job. You know, I've always been curious. I've always been obsessed with life, but I've become even more this way because of my job. I am way more— well, how would we describe it? Yeah, I'm way more macro. I'm way more— I'm way less— I hope this doesn't sound self-aggrandizing, but I'm way less shallow. I'm way less earthly. I know this may sound weird, but like, I'm just way less earthly than I was. What does earthly mean? I really don't care about what other people are doing. I really don't. I don't really care who's going to what college or who's, who's, who went on what vacation or who.

All right, that's not earthly.

It kind of is like who had a friendship breakup with whom. That doesn't— it used to. I used to go, oh, that girl, or, you know, not in a gossipy way, but oh, that person and that person broke up, or that person and that person had a friendship breakup. Now I notice I really don't care. It actually bores me. And that is not something, I hope people realize this. Yes, it's my nature, I take credit for the amount that I read, the amount that I contemplate big things in life, I take credit for that, but I'm not saying this in a pompous way like, I'm so elevated, I don't care about earthly things. I've had to make myself this way for our shows. 'Cause every single day when the mic goes on and we're on the air, it's our job to touch people, it's our job to bring the macro because every day, You know, people are going to their jobs. People are, you know, listening to us as they're, you know, I got an email from someone the other day and she said, I love putting you on when I'm making dinner, you know, and I'm very aware of that. And I'm very aware that people don't have the luxury as I do to talk about the big things in life. And so I want to make sure I master the big things and bring it to them. But in turn, because I am still a person as well as a professional, I have become obsessed with the big things such that in my personal life, when people start talking about this girl we knew and if this girl is gonna marry this guy or— well, that I find interesting— or if this girl doesn't like this other girl anymore. I don't give a shit. Sorry, I know that was kind of a rant, but like, I don't care anymore.

I'm smiling because I've known this about me all of my life. And I had— in high school, I came up with a theory in high school, and the theory was that the greater the number of people in a conversation, the shallower the conversation gets.

That's not true of Shabbat though, correct?

That's correct.

But that's because you've really— I, I learn a lot from you, Dennis. I mean Those Friday nights we have are incredibly special. And I know that they're special because we have 20 people and we're talking about some of the greatest things in life. But it's because all of us have a shared kinship, if you will, in loving. Yes, the eternal.

Right. It doesn't have to be, but it does. Generally speaking, I— but maybe I'm now realizing there may be a reason. Maybe my rule wasn't accurate. Maybe it was because if it went in one-on-one, I could control the conversation. I could, I could, because it's my nature, I could talk the deep stuff. I didn't give it— do you know that I have announced on the radio all of my life, and I, I've never thought about it, how do listeners react, say, folks, I— this may sound bizarre to many of you, but I want you to know that so-and-so public figure— politics, sports, show business— having an affair holds no interest.

Oh, I kind of find that— that is the stuff like I'm kind of shallow on. No, no, I find that to be interesting.

I know, I know.

Why did this person have an affair? Yeah, well, most people have affairs, you know.

Okay. I think I know the answer to when a man has an affair. It is usually for sex. When a woman has an affair, it is usually for attention.

That's fascinating. I want to figure out why the people had an affair and I don't judge them.

I really don't. Yeah, but I don't even see— but I don't, I don't even find it interesting because my assumption is most people, most men, let's put it this way. My assumption is, and maybe this is fascinating talking to itself. My assumption is that most men will give in if the opportunity arises. Did you know that there was a— there was a— I don't know. There was a business. I was going to say a service, but they claimed to be a service. So girls wanting to know if this is the guy I want to marry would actually hire a woman who would dress sexy meet the guy at a bar, be obviously somewhat available, so to speak. And if he tried to pick her up, then, uh-oh, the girlfriend would drop the guy. You know, he's gonna cheat on— if he's gonna cheat on me while we're dating, he'll certainly cheat on me when we're married. Which, by the way, I don't know if that is a— I don't know if that's a valid rule. Yeah. It is an interesting one worthy of its own discussion. Is there a difference between committed dating and marriage? And I think there's a world of difference personally, but many people don't. But anyway, I always thought it's a stupid test to put him on. Let us say My, my girlfriend— I don't know, the analogy is not perfect, but my girlfriend is on a very strict diet. She doesn't want to get type 2 diabetes, I don't know what. And I have people constantly coming over the most delicious desserts to her, and she has a big sweet tooth, which most people have. Maybe you just shouldn't put people to the test. By the way, it's, this is, there's so many pregnant subjects here. I love that, pregnant subjects. Yes, that's right, they're pregnant subjects. How many guys would pass, forget married men, though that's worthy of a question. And by the way, you've really gotten an education about men. Thanks, Dennis. Yes, that was serious. I truly do take credit for that. Thank you. Yes, it— well, it's worthy of a thanks. If you're still waiting to buy gold, sitting on the sidelines might cost you precious gains. This is Dennis Prager for AmFed Coin and Bullion. That's my choice for precious metals. The current economic climate could make buying gold a very desirable safe haven commodity. The government's overprinting of money, the fluctuation of interest rates, and high inflation can all impact the value of gold, and it's why you should seriously consider buying now. I've been working with AmFed Coin and Bullion's owner Nick Grovich for years. I'm glad that I jumped into the precious metals market when I did, but it's never too late. Nick's been in the industry for over 42 years, and he's proud of providing transparency and fair pricing to build long-term relationships. Nick and his team have my back, and they will have yours. They recommend what's in my best interest, not theirs, and I never worry about hidden commissions or huge markups. If you're interested in buying or selling, call AmFed Coin and Bullion for a free coin performance review 800-221-7694. AmericanFederal.com. AmericanFederal.com. As I've said all of my life, there's no way a woman can understand men.

Well, I went to an all-girls school.

No, no, right, that helped. It's a big help if you have brothers. That's a big help. All sisters. But you had all sisters, you went to an all-girls— there was no way you can begin to understand.

My dad is the best. Like, my dad, my dad is— he is so— I got so lucky with my dad. He is the most stable, loving, right?

But I'm not the other way. No, no, that's— yeah, but that's his character, right? The issue is explaining men. Yeah. Most fathers, or I don't think, explain that. Most mothers certainly don't. They should. Parents should explain to girls what men are like. It's absolutely urgent because there's no way to know. But anyway, I do believe that most guys who are, who are not married, okay, not even, not even engaged, but they're in a— what is the— committed is not the word that dating people use.

What is the word? In a relationship?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where you know there is a word and it's not committed. Exclusive, that's the word that's used. You're in an exclusive relationship. How many guys, let's say guy 28 years old, guy 25, 28, he's in 2 years an exclusive relationship with a woman. They're not engaged and certainly not, obviously not married. And a really sexy woman approaches him at a bar and makes it clear she is available to him. How many men will say, you know, I'm sorry, I'm in an exclusive relationship, have a nice night?

I don't know.

I don't know either.

I would hope a lot, but probably not a lot.

Well, we all hope a lot. I could just tell you that This I don't think you've ever heard me note. This is very interesting. And to Billy Graham, you ever hear of Billy Graham? 'Cause I never know what famous person from the previous generation is still famous. Billy Graham was the best-known Christian in the world. Better known than any pope, and he was, not obviously, but he's Protestant. And he was the great evangelizer on earth. Wow. Yeah. Incredible rallies everywhere. I mean, he went everywhere in the world and vast numbers would come to see him. I mean, he would have a thing, to put it in Los Angeles terms, at the Rose Bowl and fill the Rose Bowl. Okay. Anyway, so Billy Graham was, as almost all evangelicals certainly then, conservative. I remember when Bill Clinton— this was obviously right before you were born— Bill Clinton had his affair with Monica Lewinsky. Correct. About which I have a lot to say, too, believe it or not. Oh, I believe it. My heart has always gone out to her. Oh, of course. I think she was dealt a bum rap by the media. All of it. All of it. Don't start me. Okay. So anyway, Billy Graham, who was not a liberal Democrat, and Clinton was, but he said no one should judge a man. I'm paraphrasing, but the gist was no one who has doesn't have all the opportunities that a man like Bill Clinton has should judge him. Hmm. See, most men do not have vast numbers of young women pursuing them, throwing them. Okay. Right. Sports figures do. Musicians do. Politicians do. It's true. Powerful men do. Famous men. But it's a very tiny percentage.

And I know women. I can speak as a woman. There are a lot of women. Yes. Who chase—

that's correct.

Rich, yes, powerful guys. Right. A lot.

Right. They don't have to be rich, just powerful.

Games to get these.

Yes, that is correct.

They do. They throw themselves at them. They use sex. They use— they play games. Correct.

So, so I, I knew as a man, I've always been sympathetic to men because I know our nature. I am included in that nature. I am no different from— I'm no different from Bill Clinton except in behavior. But I have the— I'm no different from Hugh Hefner except in behavior. I mean, people, women want to believe their husband is different. Their father is different. They're not. Hello. They're not. They may— they behave differently. And that is to their credit.

Listen. I'm not Mother Teresa. I want to marry a wealthy guy. I want to marry a guy who, you know, who is, who is, um, established in a career. That is not the primary concern for me. But I do, and it's not be—

I mean, you don't have to make it.

You're a woman. Like, I'm a woman. Any woman who is honest with themselves is going to agree with me, and any man who's honest with themselves is going to agree with you about how you're no different than Hugh Hefner accepting behavior, right? We are men and women. We are people. We are flawed, but we have to just recognize that.

I have an anecdote for you. I'm so happy when I could tell you a story I haven't told you. I love it. I love it. You will. This is, this is precious.

My favorite are Aunt Chippy stories. Really? Yeah, because I have an Uncle Chippy. Okay.

That's funny. You must be odd to you that I have an Aunt Chippy. It's awesome.

You met my Uncle Chippy?

Yes, I adore him. I got those great pictures of you two. Oh, you saw them, right?

No, I've never seen them. Oh, they're—

oh, I'll send them to you because, you know, I've never seen— photography is my thing. You'll love the pictures. Anyway, so this, this is, this is going to go into my autobiography. This is one of the great— one of the 20 great moments of my life. And great doesn't mean, you know, some momentous thing happened. But it was great in the way that people will understand it. So I, I was very much into sports. Racquetball and tennis were my sports. I played it regularly. I was a member of a gym that had racquetball courts, and I went twice a week, and I usually played this one friend of mine. Wonderful guy. And he— this was in our— this was in our early 30s or late 20s. And he got married early, late 20s or early 30s. And they met because of me, as it happens.

That's a— that's a theme. That's a theme. That is correct.

So I was close to both because I had, uh, you know, known them and said— got them together. Okay, anyway, we're having dinner, the two of them. They had just gotten married, or they were just about to be married. I think they had just gotten married. And we're having dinner, and I don't have a woman with me. It's just the three of us.

I don't got a chick. No chick.

No chick on my arm. And, uh, so, so, Dennis, she says, how's racquetball with and fills in her husband's name. Oh, great. We love it. And I got to tell you, there's an added bonus. I'm paraphrasing. I don't remember my words, but essentially, and that is between games, we just step outside the court, sit on the bench right outside the window to the— to our racquetball court. And all these good-looking women are walking by, you know, in their tights and their shorts and so on. And then I go, and we, you know, we just enjoy the scenery. And I get a severe kick under the table.

Oh, oh yes, I know this. You told me this from the guy whose wife was—

And the wife goes— No, no, this is a news story that she's never heard.

Sean, so shady. You are Mr. Shady Star.

Sean, go back to the table. The video game. Why are you listening? He's— so anyway, so he kicks me, and then she— he, he goes, well, uh, let's give him a name. Uh, Tommy. Oh, Tommy's not like that.

And, and I remember thinking, I love this story.

You have to be kidding. Tommy is not checking out women scantily clad walking by in the gym. Because he's married. And I'm thinking, what planet does this woman live on? Okay. But the killer was not that she said that. The killer was that he kicked me because he wanted her to believe that. Yes. That was so sad to me that he had to lie about his nature to his wife.

See, you and Sue and— and look, I'm just going to say, and I've said this on the air before, my parents don't talk to me about sex, and I'm glad. Please don't talk to me about it. Most parents don't. Just— yeah, I know they watch the show. I love you. Never talk to me about it. I don't want to know. Dennis is, you know, Dennis can help. So you and Sue are so interesting to me. You really are. Because, you know, when it's your own parents, it's uncomfortable. But I'm lucky with you guys because, you know, I can— it's not— well, it's weird because you're not my parents. Exactly. And You guys are both very open with each other about these things. 100%. And what I love about it is that you're very open with Sue about, and about your finding women attractive, but it is not even a question that you would ever stray from your marriage. It is not even, it is not even like a question of a question because it's so obvious how much you love her and how much she loves you. And you do, you always make her feel like she is the love of your life, because she is.

And, and the, the sexy love of my life. Yes, that's important. Yes, you do. You're always— platonic love of my life.

Yes, you're always telling her how beautiful she is.

Yes. And it's really amazing.

I use that term. And it's really amazing to, to see, because you guys are very rare. You're very open with each other.

We're totally open. But I, I want to—

but it's a credit to her, because most women—

correct, most women—

I will tell you, I've learned a lot from her, because guess what? I don't know if I would be so comfortable if my boyfriend or husband were telling me about his male nature. You know, I think that would be really scary to me as a woman.

It would be, it would be.

And I've learned from Sue to—

Not be scared. Not be scared. That's right.

Because if you have the right guy, he's gonna be honest with you about his male nature, but he's also going to be totally devoted to you.

That's correct. So that's exactly right, which is why I don't believe as a general rule, there are exceptions, there are certain things that cross over, but I, I don't believe in sinful thoughts nearly as much as I do sinful behavior.

I know we've—

oh, we had, we've had some great Dennis and Julies on this, and I've had it, you know, with, with the Christian people, Christian spokesmen that I've had, you know, ask a Jew, ask a Christian dialogues for, for 10 years across the country. I, uh, I, I don't really— I don't care what you think. I care how you behave.

So I have a question for you about this. Your insight about judging behavior, I think, is so valuable. I'll root this in an example. You know, I have some friends who work in industries where you really kind of got to know who's who. You know, media, Hollywood type industries where it is a part of their industry to know who's who. It just is. You and I are really lucky, Dennis, because That's not a big part of our industry, or at least our positions in our industry. We get to show up here every day and talk about the macro. We get to talk about eternal things. Remember when I was saying that I'm not as earthly?

Right. Yeah, I get it.

In large part, it is because of my work environment. It really is, because I get to come in and hang out with Dennis Prager all day, and I get to talk about worldly things. A lot of people don't have that luxury. A lot of people work in industries where they're like, it's just a different culture. It's a different— you're producing a different product. It's a different culture. And I have some friends who, as I've said, work in these industries where it really is important to know who's who. And I find, because I'm so privileged to work in my little niche of this industry, that sometimes I don't judge them, but sometimes I think like, Ugh, why, why, why does it have to be this way? You know, why, why do you care? Or why do you have to care who's who? And I can't figure out what I should think about that. I can't figure out if—

I'm not following exactly. What does it mean, figure out who's who? I didn't— that's not where I'm clear. Who, who is trying to figure out who's who?

You know, if you're— lawyers— put it this way, and I don't have a friend who's an agent, I actually don't, but let's say you're an agent The way that you work as an agent is that you represent talent, and you, if you get them a movie or if you get them a TV show, you collect 10% of what they earn. You've got to be a shark to be an agent. You've got to, you got to have your hands in all these different kinds of places because you got to know who's who. You got to get invited to the right parties.

You got to be with the right people. You meant you needed to know people's natures. Oh, you know, oh, I'm glad I asked. I had no clue.

You need to know, okay, this person is on this committee. Who are the movers and shakers? Exactly. And you've got to be friends with this person.

So what does that have to do with our theme? Okay.

What it has to do with is if we're judging people for behave— I find to be the who's who. What? How did you put it? I find caring about movers and shakers— I'm just going to say it— to be shallow. Right. I do. I find it to be shallow. Yeah. And I think that we should— everyone is created in the image and likeness of God. I believe everyone is equal, and I believe we should treat people equally.

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And, and people who I know do treat people equally, they treat people in a lovely way. But some of my friends are in industries where they have to suck up to people. They have to care about movers and shakers. They have to get invited to the right parties. They have to be in the right.

So my question is a professional. Me, do I judge?

You know, right. I find it to be shallow, but also maybe I'm not in a position to have an opinion about that because that's their industry and my—

I got lucky.

I hit a unicorn with Dennis Prager who doesn't care. And I am in a unicorn industry where I get to talk about worldly things all day. Maybe it's not fair for me to judge people for being shallow because I am lucky that I don't have to be shallow all day. Maybe if I weren't as lucky and didn't work on this show or work in this environment, I would have to be more shallow. So this is sort of a bigger question I have. Like, I believe in universal standards. I believe in universal behavior. I do believe being shallow is wrong. I do believe, you know, sucking up to people in order to get something is morally wrong, but also maybe there is a kind of moral relativism in the world that we have to subscribe to where in some industries, in order to get your paycheck, you do have to be kind of shallow.

Okay. There are so many issues raised here. It's funny because, you know, my son Aaron does a podcast, AP Unfiltered, no space between the two. AP for Aaron Prager. So he has one recurring line in every one of his daily ones. Thank you. His, his recurring line is being informed is an American and moral obligation. That's right. That's his way of saying, I'm judging you if you, if you're not interested in big issues.

This is important, but this is not exactly what I'm saying. What I'm saying is—

I think it is exactly what you're saying. Okay, go on. Because not to care about your society is shallow.

It's more so— 100% agreed, but it's more on an interpersonal level. I know some people who need to care about how much money people have or how much fame people have or how connected people are in order to advance themselves in their career.

They're related, they're not identical.

Okay, that's fair. And I can't figure out if—

if you should judge them or not. Yeah. Okay. So it goes back to my original statement to you. Remember I said Knowing the power of individual nature in addition to the power of human nature has made me less— what is it? What is it? I didn't say less judgmental. I used a different— more accepting of people. It has. Yeah. Here's one. This is a related thing to what you just said and what I just said. So I have— I've never— this is why Dennis and Julie is unique in my life, because it brings out stuff. As open as I am on my own show, it takes someone like you to bring it out of me. So I have never said this publicly, and not for any other reason than I never thought to. Now it's being dragged out of me, as it were. So I often think And I say to myself, Dennis, well, what if everybody were as thoughtful, not in the sense of being kind, but filled with thought as you are? You wouldn't have a job. Exactly. Exactly. Isn't that interesting?

Of course. No, of course. It's utterly fascinating. I mean, You know, you're right.

And you're right. So anyway, it's just it's not a here or there thing. Look, I gave a course in the 1980s or '90s. It's still available at the Prager Store, which Salem owns. I don't own it. And it's called How to Lead a Deeper and Better Life. So to be, how do you get more deep and more good? It's not an easy course to give. That's right. How do you, a course in getting deeper? Anyway, who wakes up and thinks, I wish I were deeper? People think, I wish I was richer, I wish I was more successful, I wish I was better looking, I wish I was smarter. I mean, but nobody wakes up and says, or I would say close to nobody, that thinks, I wish I were deeper. That's right. By the way, if you wish you were deeper, you'll get deeper.

That's the irony. Well, yes. Well, okay. Wow. There's a lot to say about this, you know? So what I was saying a few minutes ago is, as a synopsis, that I can't figure out whether to judge people for being shallow if being shallow is a part of their career, because I know how lucky I am.

Yeah, but that's career. No, no, you're, you're no, Your question is valid because obviously an agent has to meet with non-people. So forget it. Work it. But so that's not an issue. Of course you don't blame him for that. Yes. It's like you're going to blame a baseball player for talking baseball all the time.

But here, I'll give you another example. So I, because of this job, we're so— we're very lucky because we meet a lot of different people. I have met some Christians, and I know, you know, Christians like this who are so Christian, they are so not earthly that I want them to be more earthly. I want them to call up a favor. I want them to— something, you know, like I know Christians, I seriously know some Christians and they will open their home to anyone and they'll go, oh my gosh, This person was on a pilgrimage and they needed an extra bedroom. And God's providence would have it that my bedroom was open that night because my guest the night before, who was coming in from, you know, this other missionary trip, had left. And I'm like, kick these people out of your house and have your own home. Or I know Christians who are like, I, you know, God has really blessed us because You know, we've given away so much of our salary to the church, and, you know, even though sometimes we fear we can't pay our bills, God's providence will always have it that we have just enough money to pay our bills. And I'm like, call some rich Christian you know and get a loan. Like, sometimes it's so funny because I feel like I'm in all these different worlds where I'm with secular people who don't have enough of the worldly, you know? And sometimes I'm like, "Come on, you gotta have more of the worldly. Don't just work it to get a job. Don't— come on." And then sometimes I'm with these Christians who are so godly that I'm like, "Call up a favor and get a loan." And I know this seems a little disjointed, these comparisons, but I think the through line here is How do we judge people? Do we judge people based on their context? Do we judge people based on their lives and their situations and what they need to do in order to make money, what they need to do in order to, you know, get a good job? Do we judge people based on how strongly they adhere to their religion? Like, should I judge the great Christians I know by the worldview that they prescribe themselves. Does this make sense?

Well, the issue— okay, I do. It totally makes sense. But it's not just Christians. It's almost any really religious person. They don't fully live on this earth. They don't. And they would acknowledge that they don't. But I'm with you. I'm deeply religious and fully live on this earth. That's right. And for Christians, I mean, Jesus is the perfect example. He was fully human and fully divine. That is the Christian belief. So you've got to be fully human too. Yes. You, you can't just be, uh, in touch with the divine. And I would say that to, uh, some of my religious Jewish friends who, you know, they— I bring out the earthly, you, to use your term, in them.

I know you do.

I've seen this. Yes. And, and I often feel— I will say to my wife, I think there is a certain rabbi I'm thinking of, and I am convinced I am the only person on earth who talks to him like I do, who makes jokes, for example.

But Dennis, this is—

I think he's so holy. Who wants to joke with a holy man?

People are so used to you bringing out the worldly in other people. They don't understand that you also bring out the earthly in the religious. And I'm starting to see this as I come up in the world. I'm used to bringing out the worldly in some of my secular friends, and now I find myself bringing out the earthly in a lot of my religious friends. And so it's very interesting because it's like, it's, you know, and I don't— when I say, how do you judge people, I don't go around talking smack in my head about people. That's not what I mean by judge people. But like, do I advise my secular worldly friends based on their secular worldly life You know, like, if they have— well, worldly's not the word.

I don't find them worldly. They're this world, earthly, earthly. Yes.

You know, do I— like, for instance, and this is, this is completely hypothetical, I always protect my friends. I actually don't have any friend who's an agent. But, you know, if I have a friend who's an agent and they really want to get, you know, this great actor to represent, and they got invited to this party and they want my advice on how to kind of work it, Do I give them advice on how to work it because that's their world, even though I don't really believe in working it? I believe in, in not working it. Like, I believe in just letting Providence, letting life kind of guide you. Do I give them their earthly advice in their earthly realm? And then similarly with the religious people, like, do I try to bring them more back to earth, or do I give them advice as Christians and Catholics who for whom that is their worldview, and they should give money away, and they should host missionaries. I find myself, like, I'm getting sturdy in my worldview, but I also, I'm seeing so many people in life, they have their own worldviews. And it's hard because then I wonder, are there universal— I know we're getting really pie in the sky here, but like, are there universal standards to which all of us should subscribe? Or are we all kind of relativist and we are all products of our own religion, our own jobs, our own professions and personalities?

So I have grappled exactly with this issue my whole life and more so today. Ironically, you'd think I would have either ended, ended my grappling or have already grappled so much I'm tired of it or I don't have to do anymore. It's relatively new in certain ways, as I've explained earlier with my current deep realization that everyone has a nature. So let me give you my answers to what you raised. Will help the listener understand what you've raised. So I'll give you, I'll give you an example that in a certain way will hit home because You would be one I would judge adversely according to what I would have thought when I was a kid. Yes. So I fell in love with classical music in high school. I taught myself how to conduct. I obviously play, play an instrument, and I'm, I'm crazy about classical music. It, it's, it's the perfect combination of the intellect and the divine. So, and the emotion, it's the heart, the soul, and the mind are equally engaged. That's how powerful I find it. And it was love at first hearing in my sophomore year in high school. I love that. I love it too. It was a gift. So here's something I had to grapple with to show how early I grappled with it and to give a perfect example of grappling with with it. My closest friend then and remains a tremendously close friend, I could say his name, Joseph Telushkin, we met in my sophomore year in high school. I fell in love with him and I fell in love with classical music the same year. Okay, there we go, that's exactly— newest edition is just about to come out. We wrote two books together many years ago. So he, anyone who knows, he's an extremely deep human being. And our, our talks, we would do hours and hours and hours at a time sitting in my car in cold Manhattan when we were both in graduate school in different, different schools. Anyway, I remember grappling with the fact that deep Joseph couldn't care less about about classical music. Yes, yes, you've told this.

Yes, before, and it's so—

it was so helpful to me. Yes, that's so— it's Scott. People must understand, he forced me to understand, Dennis, you can't judge anybody by whether they love classical music. And by the way, vice versa, there were so many— there were so many people in who are great musicians and who are a-holes as human beings. Yes. So that, by the way, that also was a killer for me when I learned that, that Hitler loved Mozart and Schubert. And I thought, oh crap, what does that say? It says that there's no moral impact by great music. Doesn't have a great impact.

It's actually a kind of like a death almost. It sounds so strange when people who you care so much about and with whom you are so connected on a great many issues, right?

And, and the person that you love, passionate—

and it's almost like, wait, what? You're not the person I thought I knew. But that's not true. We're all different. That's right. And we all have different natures. We all have different proclivities.

Therefore, I've come down to all I— what I virtually all I judge is the moral. Are you a decent person, both macro and micro? Because—

Okay, but here's the thing, here's the thing, and maybe I'm finding this because of my age, maybe I'm finding this because of where I grew up, maybe I'm finding this because of the schools I went to, I'm not sure, or maybe this is universal. I think a lot of young people could relate to this, but Wait, forgive me. What was the comment you just finished with?

Well, about— well, I think I finished with that. Oh, maybe that wasn't my final thought about, you know, those who love music are not necessarily— oh, yeah. My only judgment is, are you decent?

Decent. Thank you. Thank you. Before we continue, I want to tell you about MyPillow. I use many MyPillow products. I walk into work every day wearing the MySlippers, and then I quickly change into heels. I sleep on the MyPillow in the Giza Dream bedsheets, and I use MyPillow towels, among other products. And you can get many of these products at a discount if you use the promo code Hartmann. MyPillow's latest deal is the sale of the year. For a limited time, you'll get 60% off of the aforementioned Giza Dream bedsheets that comes with a 60-day money-back guarantee and a 10-year warranty. You'll get a set for as low as $39.99 with the promo code Hartman. Just go to mypillow.com and click on the radio listener square and use the promo code Hartman, or call 1-800-566-6745 and use the promo code Hartman. Along with this offer, you'll get deep discounts on all MyPillow products, including the MyPillow mattress topper, the MyPillow towel sets, and more. We now live in a world, you know, this is actually, this is actually so fascinating. You have no idea. I mean, my generation, we have not been raised overwhelmingly with the values that you were raised with. Like? A lot of things, actually. A lot of things like writing a thank you note, When I was— when growing up, growing up, let me tell you, and this is where I adore— and I adore my parents in so many ways, but I will always be so grateful for the manners that they taught me. My parents are both very mannered people, and my mom, growing up, she always had me write a thank you note. Always. Seriously, when I was 8, I remember this so well. There was a girl in my class, Isabel, and she This is one of the defining things of my life. And she had a— I had a birthday party and she gave me some gift and I had written all my thank-you notes and for some reason I didn't write this girl, Isabelle, a thank-you note. And my mom kept a list of the people who I wrote thank-you notes to. And for some reason I didn't write this girl, Isabelle, a thank-you note. And it was 5 months after my birthday or 6 months after my birthday and I still hadn't written this girl a thank-you note. And I remember this vividly. I remember sitting and saying, Mom, it's so past my birthday. She gave me this 6 months ago. She forgot about it. You know, we're passes. I don't need to write a thank you note. And she said, no, I don't care if it's late. You always write a thank you note. And I sent this girl a thank you note 6 months later when I was 8 years old. The way that I— I just went to Europe for 5 weeks. You know, there were some parts of the trip where I stayed in my own hotels. There were other parts of the trip where I stayed with Astrid, for instance, or where I stayed with other friends, I will always write people a handwritten thank you note for hosting me at my house. That's big. It is, and it means so much to people.

Handwritten is the best. Of course. And it's—

but, but also, okay, that is, to me, that is the least that I could do. Astrid, for instance, she was so gracious to me. She knows I'm an eater. She got me Danish bread. She got me this great sausage. She stocked up the fridge for me. She, you know, she was such a lovely and gracious host. By the way, everyone should check out the fireside chat that Dennis did with Astrid. It's fantastic. Of course I would write her a thank you note. This doesn't make me holier than thou. This doesn't make me spectacularly mannered. Are you telling me this girl hosts me at her apartment for a few days and makes sure that I have all the things that I like and I'm not gonna write her a thank you note? That makes me the jackass. That I wouldn't properly thank her. But we, my generation, we've been raised with different— we've— not all of us have been raised the same way. We just haven't. There used to be a universal American culture of certain things like writing a thank you note, and that is not what my generation has anymore. And in a way, you know, I host friends and I don't expect them to write me a thank you note. So, you know, and this is what I can't figure out, Dennis. I can't figure out if I should judge myself and others according to universal standards, or if our society is so out of whack that everyone really is living their truth. A lot of my friends grew up in homes where their parents didn't tell them to write thank you notes. And that doesn't mean that their parents are bad people. Our culture is so atrophied now. I have friends where, you know, I have friends, I mean, who will, you know, I don't want to give that example. But you know, sorry, like, I think a lot of young people will understand, like, we don't, our culture is really broken. And a lot of people behave based on how they were raised and it's not according to like a shared American culture. And that's a real loss.

But then, well, that's why I opposed multiculturalism when it first came out. I don't know, the '90s or '80s. And I spoke against it immediately. I said I had read it somewhere. I oppose multiculturalism, and then I read this: we are multi-ethnic, we're multi-racial, but we're not multicultural.

Yes, this is the thing, and really this is the through line of my whole— of the whole conversation. I believe in a set of principles that everyone should generally follow. Now that doesn't mean if somebody doesn't follow it, I'm gonna, you know, who want to punish them. But I believe that a great country, a great culture, thrives on some universal principles.

Like, you hold the door for—

you hold the door for a woman. That's another thing I have gone on.

Or even hold the door for the person walking behind you, the stranger, male or female. We have really hit a—

we've really hit a gold mine on this topic because I've been on dates with really great guys who do not open the door for me. I have been on dates.

You should raise a question with them.

Who split the dinner? And this is what I can't figure out, at the risk of repeating myself, but the whole— and you judge them? Do I judge them? Yeah. Is it just— are they, you know, because they weren't raised in homes where you—

okay, fine, pay for the girl because we're in a liberal society now. Can you judge someone is not the same as can I explain someone? You can judge and you can explain. Well, they were raised crappily. Let me— fine. Okay. But it doesn't end the judgment. Oh, boy.

We're really about to go here now. We're really going here. I know conservative guys who watch pornography. I know conservative guys who don't hold open the door. I know liberal guys who Do hold open the door. I know, like, we're a very atrophied culture. And so it really is hard because we were, especially, I don't mean to overcomplicate this, I really don't, but it is relevant. Social media, my generation grew up with social media where even more we became exposed to different ways of doing things, different cultures, different norms, you know? And so again, in a way, it's really hard to figure out people.

Well, because what you're saying, I think, is it's hard to know how to judge. It is.

Because think about it, a guy who grew up in a good home who's 12 years old and a guy and also grew up in the age of Pornhub being thrown at them all the time and explicit sexual content on Instagram, can you really blame him if he watches porn a lot as an adult? You know, or similarly, a guy or a girl or, you know, anybody who— I'll take a guy, for example, a guy who grew up in a home with liberal parents who didn't teach him to open the door, but maybe he grew up to be conservative.

Can you judge him? So have I given you the example of Oskar Schindler, the German who saved 1,000 Jews, who, you know, Schindler's List? The famous movie.

I know the movie. It's an excellent movie. Right.

Well, it's a true story. I know. And the guy, which obviously exceedingly rare, he kept hiring Jews to save their lives. He was not only a German, he was a member of the Nazi Party and he was a serial adulterer. And I always use his example whenever people say, oh, Trump, oh, he committed adultery. Yeah, well, Schindler committed more adultery and so did King David. And God was okay with King David, not okay with the adultery. And Oskar Schindler is a moral giant compared to all the faithful Germans who did nothing to save a Jew. So what you're saying and I'm saying on all levels, it is almost impossible to judge a person. You can only judge behavior. That you can do. But nevertheless, if we don't judge people at all, we've abandoned a moral universe.

Agreed. And you know what's interesting too in this? I believe that we're entering a post-woke culture. In many ways, the culture is still woke, but I have even found among my my peers from college, a lot of people on the periphery who used to disapprove of me in college are now actually not only fine with me, but many of them actually are coming around to agree with me. In college, when I— and I'm not trying to act like I was gravely persecuted for my beliefs. I mean, I was really lucky. You know, I had great friends, but I was definitely a bit of a social pariah. There were some people who really did not like me on campus. And who would gossip about me and would gossip about my show with you and would gossip about my conservatism and would gossip about, oh, does she really believe that? And her beliefs are dangerous to society. And now a lot of them are coming around, which is really great. But I believe we're now— we're now sort of entering a post-woke society. And I find in this post-woke society, among my generation, there's a new idea that's in vogue of, well, you can't judge people for anything. Like, we've almost swung so far in the opposite direction where we grew up in this heavy, heavy woke culture where we were fearful. I mean, this is so interesting. This is why the generational part of Dennis and Julie is so valuable. You know, you were watching woke as someone who was married with children and your radio show. I was watching woke as someone building my life. I was someone, you know, I could have gone in the opposite direction. I was blessed enough to find you and come onto the show and make a career out of this. But a lot of people were quaking in the, in the, the, the, the Leviathan of woke. You know, a lot of people didn't have the luxury that I had. A lot of people had to be so careful with what they said. They had to be so careful with who they interacted with. They had to be so careful careful with what they posted because they were applying for corporate jobs and they needed to get corporate jobs. Anyway, I know I went on a little bit of an aside, but the point is we all grew up in this age of being so judged with woke. And now thankfully I think the pendulum is swinging, but now I find among people my age it's like we can't judge people for anything because we were so heavily judged during woke. Now we just like, if people are people are rude, they're rude. If people are, you know, not that anybody's racist, but if people are racist, they're racist. If people are this, they're that, you know, eff it. We just can't judge anyone because everyone is just doing—

Yeah, I didn't know that that's developing. Yes, it is. So this has to be continued at some point. It evolved into the question really from, from early in the hour. Of when and whom can you judge. See, if we don't judge at all, we're lost. If we judge too quickly, we're cruel and, and, and will render judgments that are just inaccurate. So, I mean, let's go back to Oskar Schindler. How do we judge Oskar Schindler? Exactly.

It's fascinating, right?

Well, Yeah, exactly. So that's why, you know, I believe in a just God and he'll sort it out. However, would I prefer a faithful German who did nothing to help Jews to an adulterous German who saved Jews, or anybody else, obviously, but that's the group that they went out to destroy, Jews? Of course, there's no question in my mind. I do believe, and this This is another fascinating discussion. In my dialogues with Christians, especially Protestants, whom I adore for many, many reasons. They abolished slavery, they created America. I have a great affection for Protestant Americans and Protestants in many countries. But the, oh, here's a rare time where I— Hang on. Yeah, no, no, 'cause I wanted to explain. I wanted to go on a tangent. No, no, no. This is such an important point. Oh, yes. It was. It's in dialogue with them. Oh, yes. So I will say on the radio, there are gradations of sin. And I was stunned in the beginning. I'm no longer stunned at all. I expect it. But wonderful people who share 98% of my values and whom I adore and who adore me will call in and say, well, no, no, all sin is rebellion against God. I even know their rhetoric. Oh, Dennis, all sin is rebellion against God. There's no— it's not a gradation of sin. It's all rebellion. So, and I gave the same example almost all of my career. I said, well, I want to understand something. Do you think that God regards the rape of a child as equivalent to taking a stapler from your office?

I hate to say this, it's so stupid.

Okay, well, all right, so, so let me tell you their answer. Their answer is, well, of course we regard it as different, but sin is sin in God's eyes. And I go, no, sin is sin in God's eyes doesn't answer the question. God definitely thinks the rape of a child is infinitely worse than stealing a stapler. So I don't even know where it developed. That's why I say this is the heretical Dennis. I've often said, and this is true in my own religion, this is not exclusive to Christianity or certainly not to Protestantism. It is true in my own religion. I said the most heretical thing I can say to many religious people is God has common sense. 'Cause it sounds heretical.

Well, we're created in the image and likeness of God, and we possess parts of what God has, and we have common sense.

If God doesn't see the difference between the rape of a child and stealing a stapler, I'm an atheist.

You know what you told me once? This could be really off topic, but I've thought about it a lot. You once said on Dennis and Julie, God gave us guilt. Like, God gave us the capacity to have a lot of the emotions that we have. And I think that's very interesting because if God gave us the capacity to have many of the emotions and the proclivities that we have, then he must possess some of those proclivities too. In other words, if we have common sense, then God must have common sense. Now, he's God. I don't believe God is evil, like, you know, I believe— because he's not. He's perfect. He's good. But with the good qualities, if you will, that we possess, if we are created in his image and likeness, then he must have them too. And so I do believe that God rules with common sense. Otherwise he's not— then he's just some irrational guy.

Why would he give us the ability to discern through common sense? It's useless. That's right. That's why your book is called The Rational Bible. Yes. God and reason. God without reason is fanaticism. Reason without God is men give birth. So you, you have this— you, they need— but each one needs the other.

Yes.

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I admire greatly about you, I've learned this from you. This is a very, very good talk show host. I've worked on it. I've stressed that. You do this every Dennis and Julie. It's very important.

It's very important. It's important to me, not just to the listener. So we began with my my deep appreciation for the fact that we have different natures, that, and then I gave the great example of my friend who couldn't, you know, who basically doesn't even hear classical music when it's played and is a wonderful human being. And Schindler, who committed adultery regularly and then saves 1,000 Jews. What, what? Oh, I'll give another example before I wrap up. You see, here's a good example. People intuit that if we judge nothing, we have moral chaos. Yes. And that's correct.

Yes. On the other hand, If we judge everything.

Well, no. If we— yes, if we judge everything and if we judge wrong. For example, I said it from the beginning when it came out what Donald Trump had said years earlier in private to a guy, that if you are wealthy and famous, you can grab women in their private parts. He never said he did, by the way. It's a lie that he said he does. But he said you could, and he's probably right. Women, women want— you acknowledge that, okay? And even if you really—

sad reality, okay?

Yes, sad or not, you know, I, I— it is what it is. Yes. Okay. Women, women are as turned on by wealth and fame and power as men are by beauty. Okay, that's, that's true. That's the way it works. It's so true. Yes. To deny it is is to live in make-believe la-la land. So the issue there is not that people judged, it's that they judged wrong. Who cares what people say privately? It's what they say publicly and what they do privately or publicly, what they do. If everyone listening, if everything you ever said privately were played for the world, you would look disgusting. It just— and by the way, there has to be a way. The human being is a pressure cooker. Private conversation is a way to release that pressure. Say whatever the hell you want. You're talking to pillow talk with your, with your husband or wife or friend talk, you know, you know, over a drink.

That's fine. And oftentimes it's wildly exaggerated. Yeah, wildly exaggerated. I mean, When you're upset at your boss or you're upset at yourself, right?

Yeah, right. This— oh, I, I wish this guy were strung up by, by his balls. Exactly.

And it's like you're venting and you're fine afterwards. Exactly. I do it all the time with Sean.

We do it publicly with Sean.

I go home and I just yell about Sean. Yeah.

His response was, he judges neither one of us, only— and Sean goes home to Fergus and yells about Dennis and Julie, primarily Dennis. No, but anyway, this— so this is really, really an urgent topic. Uh, that we got onto it is a blessing, but I just want everybody to know, no judgment is terrible Too much judgment is terrible. Maimonides, the great Jewish philosopher in the 12th century, Maimonides, considered the greatest Jewish philosopher, and he had a beautiful term for how we should lead our lives. In Hebrew, it's shvil hazahav, the golden road. The golden road is the middle between extremes. And that is its own subject because I have said now for years, humans are not middle of the roaders. The extreme is so tempting. It's what Jeremy Boreing, whom I consider one of the finest human beings I know, who runs Daily Wire, who is himself a committed Christian, And, and he said in, in another context about fellow Christians, we're living in a purity death spiral. And he's so right.

In a way, that's woke. I mean, you know, that's woke. Yeah, every— there are a lot of Christians who are actually quite woke in their way.

Yes.

You know, and there are a lot of Jews who are quite woke in their way, and there are a lot of secular people who are certainly woke in their way. It's a very astute comment he makes.

How to judge. It's a good one. It's a great subject. I hope this was— I'm sure it was. It made— it's one of those times where I don't think we solved an issue. But that's okay. It is okay. That's what we've done is clarified an issue. Yes. And that's just— to me, that's as important.

And sometimes what I find on Dennis and Julie, and increasingly on Timeless, is there— I want to lay all the arguments or all the sides out on the table and then come to a conclusion.

That's great.

Or come closer to a conclusion. And also, you will present the other side.

There's never one definitive—

I mean, I mean, I always— I mean, this is true of my religious journey. You know, I would call myself Catholic, but maybe this is heretical to say, but I'm always searching. You know, I'm always— if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. You know, I feel like I'm always on a journey of truth-seeking.

We need— I really do. So we need to address two things in this regard in the future. How do you search for a religion? What criteria should you use? Yes.

Oh boy, boy, would this be a good subject. Yes, it's a big— it's something I've been really thinking about.

Write it down because that, that is really worthy. I have, I have thoughts on it that are very different from most people's.

Oh, I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure. No, seriously, I'm not saying that to be cute. I'm sure you do, and they may be quite different from mine.

Could well be. And the other is questioning your own religion. Yes. I was having a talk, you know this person, so I won't— I wouldn't say whom anyway, right? She's a wonderful human being and she's a deeply committed Christian. And she was just telling me, because she knows she could open up with me, A, because I'm not Christian, so I'm certainly not going to be judging her on any issue A, vis-à-vis Christianity, and B, people know they can talk to me about anything. Men open up to me about, you should, you know, you can only imagine. And I think it's great. I love that people open up to me. Anyway, she said, you know, I gotta tell you, you know, and she knows the Bible really well. She's truly, she's a deeply evangelical Christian. And she said, I don't think everything in the New Testament is divine. I don't think when Paul says X, Y, or Z, you know, I hope you here in Corinth are feeling well these days, I can't believe that those are God's words. Those are Paul's words. I was shocked to hear this from her. Shocked. It, I have to admit, it opened up a respect, and I've always adored her, but even greater respect. There were times in my, I'll end with this, there was an issue in my Torah commentary, Torah, the first 5 books of the Bible upon which the rest of the Bible, New and Old Testament.

Incredible commentary. Everyone of any faith should read it. Yes. No faith. And no faith, exactly. Well, any faith.

It's called The Rational Bible.

No faith is Paul's category of any faith.

The fourth volume is coming out this year. So anyway, I know once you started praising it, I was—

I know, I knew this was happening. The evangelical who said that it's St.

Paul's words. Yes, oh yes. So I acknowledge when I'm right. In print, I say, you know, I can't answer the problem of this verse. This verse presents a problem that I cannot solve. And I write it. I am not going to make up a nonsense explanation because I think it's divine writ.

Exactly. And what I love about your commentary, which is the basis of my— like, you, you have to understand, my slate was clean and your 'Your Torah commentary, you brought me to God. You are the roots. You will always be the roots. You are.' And one of the things I adore about your Torah commentary is that you talk about how the, the name Israel means 'to struggle with God.' By the way, there are many people who I have told that to, and they don't know that. I'm shocked. They are religious people, and they don't know that. And they go, 'Wow.' Yes. They go, 'Wow, that is so It's not our definition. It says it in the text. And so I actually think, and this is— oh boy, we've really gone on to another subject. So a few minutes ago I said I would call myself Catholic. I have this internal battle. Was I— should I say I am Catholic? Was that me watering down what I am?

That's right.

Was that me being just, you know, was that me being watered?

I would call myself is not the same as I am.

But the reason I say I would call myself Catholic is because I believe I am Catholic. But also, and maybe this is wrong of me, I don't know. I'm so earnestly, literally, like, live on the air trying to figure this out. I would call myself Catholic. I believe I am Catholic. But I am open to being wrong. I am open.

Well, you can, to be honest, you could do both. You could say I'm Catholic and I might be wrong.

Struggling with God. Yeah, I think it's a lifelong thing to struggle with God. And I'm not the type of person who— or maybe I am— who's going to bop into like a Protestant church and then a Catholic church and then a synagogue like on my Sunday. I want to make— I want to go to Mass. I want to be a Catholic. But also, if I discover something that made me— leads me in a different way, I don't believe in being dogmatic. And this is said with complete respect to people of all faiths. Truly, I know, you know, I don't judge people for being dogmatic about their— I mean, in a way, that's actually easier and more principled because you, you go by a set of principles and you live by them. But for me, I just— and this is part of my on-air life, like, I really am an And all these people are too, of course. But I really am a truth seeker, and I want to— I want to— I just want to discover the truth.

That is true about it.

And I believe Catholicism is the truth. I just want to say I believe Catholicism is the truth at this point in my life. And by the way, with Jew— I know we're really going on here, but I— the Jews are the chosen people. God established a covenant with the Jews. I per— I don't believe it is a part of my Catholic faith for you to become a Catholic. I believe you're a Jew, and the Jew— that's for another time. But my point is, I am a truth seeker. I want to discover the truth, and I'm okay with maybe being wrong or maybe changing.

I have a Catholic I want you to meet.

It's not a satisfying Dennis and Julie note to end on, but you were saying that this episode we didn't maybe come to a conclusion, but what I'm trying to say is that life is a constant exploration, and I hope you find this podcast to be that too.

And just to delay the end even more, Sean's like, I want to even just offer a caveat on that one. It is a constant exploration, but it doesn't mean that there aren't some basic truths.

Absolutely.

There are evils, there are goods. Yes. And we can't go, well, it's too complex. Exactly. Some, some things are not complex. That's right.

And with that, like, it's not complex to hold open the door. We need to revive that as something that is not that complex. It's a universal culture.

Holocaust and communism were evil. That's right. That's not complex.

Boy, I mean, people are gonna be writing a lot of things from this one. We talked about my cigarillos. Yeah, I don't think that that's gonna—

men and women, Hugh Hefner, God.

Oh, we did a lot. Hollywood agents, Catholicism, and jewelry. Yeah, you can write to me about any and all of it at julie@julie-hartman.com. Truly, I love hearing from you. It's the great It's one of the great honors and joys of doing this. And you can reach me too on Instagram @JulieRHartman, on Twitter @JulieRHartman, Dennis @TheDennisPrager and @DennisPrager on Twitter. The Dennis Prager is Instagram. And we'll see you every Sunday right here on this YouTube channel for Dennis and Julie at 1 o'clock Pacific, 4 o'clock Eastern. Shalom. Bye.

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