Learning Yourself Through Others

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Well, hello there, everybody. Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. Dennis and Julie.

Jennison Dooley.

You know what? Oh boy, she's frisky. She's in a wild mood. This is going to be a difficult hour. I'm telling you in advance, it's going to be difficult. I, I gave you Julie. It gives— you know what gives me great pleasure? It really shows how deeply I feel about you. I get— I think I get more pleasure when people, strangers, come over to me at speeches, airports, and mention Dennis and Julie than my own work.

Oh, that is so lovely. And I think it's because we really explore things on this show that neither one of us are able to do on our respective shows because of the format of this.

And I'm known, and correctly known, for being really open. Yes, but the— you know what, it's very interesting. It proves— I know this is going to sound— I'm making this big preamble for what may be a trivial point, I acknowledge it, but it's one of the many, many, many arguments why we need people in our lives, because they elicit stuff from us. That it is not doable on your own. You'll love this. So my dear friend Joseph Telushkin, friend since high school, my one friend since high school, after about, I don't know, 10 years of marriage, he said to me one day, you know, you know what I realized being married? I go, what? That I actually get into bad moods. It was a very interesting insight because when you live alone and you get into a crappy mood, it's normal. You're, you're you. It's, it's when you have to bounce off another person that you start knowing you. Wow. We, we need people. This is not an argument you often hear. We need people for 100 reasons, but one of them is to know ourselves better.

Oh, of course. I mean, I even find this with ideas. When I explain an idea or a point of view to someone else, it forces me to understand it myself. They always say if you want to figure out if you understand a concept, teach it.

That's right.

And that's, that applies also to your sharing things about yourself. I was talking with a friend recently who has resolved to go on She said 30 dates in 60 days, which is a little ambitious. I mean, that's, that is quite a short amount of time to do that many dates. But she said to me, she's maybe 5 dates in, she goes on these dating apps and she'll do it. And she says, it's fascinating for me to see what stories I tell about myself or the way that I answer questions on this date about my upbringing, my relationship with my parents, how I feel about my life, how I feel about my career, what I want out of my life. And when I'm in conversations with strangers, you will relate to this. I don't know if many people would relate, but I know you will. My favorite questions to ask them are, tell me about the home you grew up in. Tell me—

and the reason why.

Why? Because it reveals so much about a person. Oftentimes when you ask those simple questions about someone, it gets them, to your point, thinking about— and they go— because few people actually ask those questions. And they have to kind of go, oh, what was the home I grew up in like? And then you get the deepest and often most revelatory answers from that question in particular. No, just from simple questions. Who had the biggest influence on you for, for better or for worse?

So who will you ask this of on a date? You will, you will ask.

I will ask it of literally anyone. I was at a cigar lounge the other day because of you. Thank you very much. But also now I love cigars. Yeah, whatever. It's— they love, they love when I come in. They call me the daughter of the cigar lounge. They say they don't get any women, and I'm like, good, I want to hang out with the guys. And I think I mentioned this on Dennis and Julie, but this cigar lounges are so diverse.

Yeah, we did mention it.

Crazily diverse.

I told you the, the photo I took at a New York cigar lounge guys yucking it up. And there was a black guy, a Hasidic Jewish guy, a white guy, a Hispanic guy. And they're yucking it up like they're old buddies, they're brothers. But because they're sharing a cigar.

Well, because in other countries it's more culturally common to smoke than it is in America. But you go in and the other day there was a Syrian and a Syrian and then a gypsy. But anyway, I love asking people those kinds of questions because people don't go there. And a lot of the times people don't care to learn about someone else's upbringing. They care, what do you do for a living?

Right. So how, how does that relate to my idea that we started with, that you need another person to know yourself?

I think, I think you need other people to take an interest in, or you, so you, you in answering.

So in a sense, when they answer your question, they're learning more about themselves.

Of course. Oftentimes they pause and they go, huh? So I want to ask you, who is the person in your upbringing who had the biggest influence on you, for better or for worse?

Or this is, is a good example of not something I would say. I would not think to say as much as I'm open about myself on broadcast. So what I'm about to say is that the question always troubles me. You, you couldn't guess why?

Because I think I can guess why. Okay, no one in particular, right?

And, and the reason that it bothers me is, A, it, it may sound conceited, and B, I, I don't want to in any way understate the importance of my parents. I mean, so I, I will say there's no question that my father had an influence on me. The, the influence that I think he had was his not letting life bother him attitude.

My dad is really good at that too. I think it's easier for men to be good at that than women.

That's a great point.

It just is.

Yeah, you drop—

I think Sean has that attitude. Drop 'I think.' Sean totally has that attitude. Well, I can't say I've ever known a woman who has that attitude. I certainly don't have that attitude.

That is— yes, because this is— there may be a reason, and I'm This might be the reason. If women could tune out, which is what it involves, to tune out of life, right?

That's exactly right.

Babies would die. Yes, that, that's the reason I think it is. You have to be—

we have a primal instinct to be clued in and therefore to be vigilant. Yes. Oh God, it's so good.

By the way, there's another reason to be vigilant for your own self-protection. Yeah, men do not walk around at all like women walk around.

No, no.

Is there danger around? How often have I thought, A, I'm a male, and B, I'm 6'4"? Unless I'm in a horrible area, which I almost never am, I never think, God, is there danger lurking? But every woman—

oh, all the time.

By the way, you want a giveaway? You'll love this. You would never— this is a great example. Eliciting information. So my favorite form of photography— I've been into photography since high school— my favorite form of photography is what's called street photography, which is exactly what it says. You're taking pictures of people. It's people. The first 30 years of my love of photography, I'd love taking pictures of beautiful landscapes. It's called landscape photography. Photography. Then, but then I, I just love taking pictures of people, candids, not posed pictures. And this will crack you up. So I will sit, for example, at a cafe in a foreign country as people walk by. Thousands of people walk by, and I will take picture after picture of people walking by, and the ones that I find most interesting I'll keep. I am always amazed at how often the woman in the picture— let's say it's a man and a woman walking together— is looking at me taking the picture, and the guy is completely oblivious.

What an astute observation.

Oh well, I don't know if it's even astute, and I'm— I take the compliment, but it's not astute, it's just It blows my mind.

Totally believe it.

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Oh, we always have that radar constantly. But you were saying your dad had this remarkable ability.

Yes. And that— so then we tuned out to about the— yes. So I get— he, he, here's a good example. And I think, I think I did relate this, though it's not, it's not something anybody would remember. When I was your age, that's right, exactly your age, I went one summer to Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and Jordan.

Sounds like my summer, but Middle East edition.

Yes. Yeah. But this is much more—

Oh, totally.

And for a Jewish—

Dangerous.

For a Jew, it was not the best places to visit. Okay. Not even— is not even necessary. So I said, I was actually, I remember where, I was in my parents' bedroom talking to them and I was visiting the house. I was not living there then. And so they said, what are you gonna do this summer? I said, oh, I'm gonna go to Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan. And my mother goes, oh no, isn't that dangerous? And my father looks at me, he goes, Dennis, you're only young once. Have a great trip.

Love it.

I, and I remember the words, you're only young once. And danger schmanger, that was my father's view. So back to your original question about influence. It's, it's sort of like— and again, I hesitate because my point is not at all— there's no sense of I'm complimenting me. It's just I'm being honest with you. I am asked all the time, uh, by real— especially by religious people who know the Bible, and especially by religious Jews. Even though most of my readers are Christian. So Dennis Prager, which commentaries do you use in writing your commentary? Because there is a whole huge body of Jewish commentators for thousands of years, and I list off some of the best-known names. It would be known to them. But in fact, it's mostly from within me.

Oh, I believe that because you've read it. Yes, it's a very unique perspective.

Yeah, and it's not a compliment, it's just a fact. It's— I'm an idea factory. That, that's my, that's my gift.

I'm really intrigued these days about the roles of people's childhoods in their adult life. I was reading, as it happens, a very liberal feminist book, which is the—

what was it?

Glynnis McNichol. I think it's called I'm Just Here to Enjoy Myself.

Huh.

The title of the book. And it's about a woman in her 40s, a single woman, a writer, the author who lives in New York City, going to France France and I think Italy, but maybe only France for a summer and having a good promiscuous cultural time. And I decided to read it. I love going into bookstores and picking out books that will stretch the boundaries of what I typically read. And I can't say that I typically read liberal feminist manifestos. But there was this one line in it that intrigued me. She said, I've come to believe that the very definition of maturity is not letting the blows of your childhood hit you too hard in adulthood.

That's good.

It is good. I'm mostly here to enjoy myself because that's what she texts.

One woman's pursuit of pleasure. And what in Paris?

And she— I mean, I just— I— we're very, we're very different in our worldviews. I could tell from even just the prologue. But I thought There's something to learn from everyone. And I really liked that line. I think that is very true. I look around at people and I see them as not always, but typically carrying the baggage of their childhood. But to your earlier point, forgive me, I don't mean to interrupt you, but to your earlier point, I don't think a lot of people realize that. And so when you said you need someone else to bring something out of you, I love going back to people's childhoods with them. I think that is the best way to know yourself.

Right. But you just said you don't want that baggage to influence them overly.

Of course. But you need to unearth the baggage.

Well, that's an interesting question. Are we all products of our upbringing?

Of course. I don't think that doesn't mean we're solely products of our upbringing.

So. Okay, well, Okay, since it's not solely, but, but it is. So what— I know this is, it's not measurable, it differs with different people— what percentage of our adult behavior was formed by our, our upbringing?

I would say over 50%. I look at people, and I encourage you, Dennis Prager, right now, and the listeners right now to think of people close to you in your life and consider how their adult behavior or how their adult personalities are influenced by their parents. I can look at my friends and I know many of my friends' parents, and I can completely draw a line between their worldviews, their strengths or weaknesses, their idiosyncrasies and their parents.

Let me offer a counter view.

Okay.

If that were true, Mm-hmm. Wouldn't siblings raised in the same home by the same parents be similar?

I don't think it's mutually exclusive. I can look at my sister and she and I couldn't be more different.

That's right.

So, and she and I are totally both in our own ways. And I think every child in their own ways is a reflection of and a reaction to their parents. And I can see how it's true of her and I can see how it's true of me, as different as we are.

Well, you may well be right, and I have no axe to grind, and this is really something I'm visiting— if not the first time, I haven't visited it often, this, this theme. But if, if two people come out with opposite personalities, opposite values, It's hard to say they were both shaped by their parents.

Well, their upbringing— I think their upbringing is— parents have a huge role, of course, but I think your school, your activities, your friends, the way you fit in.

Oh, I see. Okay, fine.

Your early years.

Yeah. All right, your early years. Fine. So even just early years, that means parents and peers?

Yes.

Right? Basically parents, peers, teachers. Okay. But my point— so my brother and I went to the exact same elementary school, had the exact same parents, lived in the exact same home, and we're very, very different.

Right. But you're the same in a lot of ways. You're both good guys. You got married. You've good careers. You're upstanding people. You're serious people. You have serious careers. I can see— I've never met your brother. That's fair. Okay. That's interesting. I think people, it's, it's really—

so then go back to your baggage point. In light of how powerful you, you claim our upbringing years are, what's your baggage point?

I see people who are carrying around the, the narratives that they internalized as children. Or the dynamics that they internalized as children. I mean, I don't want to say names, but there's someone in our life who is beautiful and doesn't think that she's beautiful, and it's because her father did a number on her.

Yes.

I know a lot of people who have issues, trust issues, or who have— and similarly on the other side, I know people who have spectacular qualities and they emulate their parents. But really, with the baggage point, It's oftentimes a dynamic that they were put in as a sibling or as a child within the family role, or a narrative that they internalized as a, as a kid. I, I, I want to give more examples, but I don't want to give away, give away people.

Let me offer, there are two themes here that as usual, spontaneously arose. One is the baggage issue, which I, I'm totally on board with you, passionately on board with you, and want to address. The— that's really big in, in my outlook on life. The, the other is, you know, the influence of our childhood on us. So I'd like to offer This is not exactly a brilliant insight, but I want to offer the other, or an other, possibility that your nature may be more powerful than your nurture. And I offer two examples. One is named Dennis. And the other's named Julie.

Really?

Yeah. No, this is a very, very— we're— I'm being very open about us. And it's— these are two people I know well. I know me and I know you. There, there was— it doesn't take away at all from our parents. To note that neither of us is explicable by our upbringing. Part of us is, of course, there's no question. Your pursuit of excellence was driven by your parents and many, many other factors in your life. But Julie, you're very rare and I'm very rare and I don't compliment— it's not a compliment to you and it's not a compliment to me and My proof is I don't take credit for it. Listen, in high school I did no homework, taught myself Russian, and taught myself how to conduct orchestras by visiting the New York Philharmonic Library and learning symphonic scores.

But you're quite rare.

Oh, you're right. Okay, I said I'm rare. Yes, I knew I'm rare then, but Clearly my parents didn't raise me that way. They, they, they didn't know. They thought I'd end up in jail because I didn't do any homework, which is a very funny thing. You don't go to jail for not doing homework. But, uh, oh, my father— you'll love this. This is a classic Max Prager line. My parents met Joseph Telushkin's parents at a parent-teacher's meeting one the first time they met him. They knew of Joseph because he would visit the house. My high school friend, who's still my friend. So they said to him— this was a Jewish high school. And my parents said to Joseph's parents, you know, we should have sent Dennis to a Russian school. Then he would have studied Hebrew.

Oh, gosh. You studied both Russian and Hebrew.

What are they talking about? No, no, no. It was a great line because they knew I didn't do any Hebrew homework but I did study. I did make myself—

so you could read Pravda, right?

But, but, uh, but you don't even have to be a rare person to have— I've been obsessed with this in the last few years— the power of our individual nature. Not just the power of human nature, that's universal. Human nature is universal. But I mean our nature. I mean, you know, did Beethoven's parents produce Beethoven? No. I mean, they may have taught him piano at an early age, but how many kids were taught piano at an early age? Millions. He, he, he just— he was who he was. So It's very, very hard to know why we are who we are. With all, you know, our dear friend Dr. Stephen Marmor, who was a psychoanalyst, not just a psychiatrist. You know the difference?

I think I do.

So, psychiatry— in order to be a psychoanalyst, you have to be a psychiatrist. In order to be a psychiatrist, you have to be an MD. Psychologists don't have MDs. Psychiatrists have MDs.

So psychoanalyst—

Psychoanalyst is an advanced degree for only psychiatrists.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Yes. And it's a lot of— it's Freudian. So it's not highly regarded today. Freud has been widely dismissed. I don't— I think Freud was a genius, but I totally get—

Boy, that's a conversation unto itself. Is Freud a genius?

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And I think it's brilliant. I think therapy, as Abigail Shrier has exposed, can be terrible. But I think examining your life and your patterns, I mean, people have dating patterns. That's something that I have been talking with friends about. I feel like I was just listening to a podcast, some very prominent podcaster who was talking about this. But people, they— I can give a few examples of how I, how I think people are affected by this baggage. I had a friend years ago who was extremely emotionally unavailable. Like, she could not talk about her emotions. She couldn't handle other people's emotions. She wasn't particularly warm. She was a great friend in other ways. She was fine. She was very smart. But then I met her parents, and especially her mom, and I completely understood where that came from. Her mom was very kind of utilitarian, always very busy, had a lot going on, and did not exude warmth and didn't model. I have to give my mom immense credit. My mom, always growing up, she would— we'd be at the grocery store, she would ask the cashier, how are you doing? It's nice to see you. She'd remember people's names. She's a birthday savant. She remembers everybody's birthdays. And as a child, it was just really— I had this warm, very magnanimous mother, and it was just modeled to me that that's the way that you treat people and that's the way that you treat strangers. This friend, when I met her mother, her mother exuded no warmth. And so in turn, I completely understand why she was, many think, unempathetic.

Okay.

I could list so many more examples.

We don't have a big difference of opinion. I just— It's so hard though. Look, it would be idiotic to deny that our upbringing affects us. The big question is how much. And that brings us to your original point about baggage. So let's— and I think this is what you were saying, why you brought up the baggage point, you— because you were offering advice. Don't let your baggage weigh you down.

Well, that's what the author said in the book. She says that the definition of maturity is not letting the blows of your childhood affect you too much. Yeah, I think people— this is— and I know you'll very much agree with this. One of my favorite lines, I actually think it's the thesis statement of conservatism, and I think it's the thesis statement of the United States of America. It's in Genesis when Cain kills Abel and God says to him, the impulse towards evil is within you and yet you have the power to master it. I, if I ever got a tattoo, I'd get that tattooed in very, very fine print somewhere on my body. I think the reason why people let baggage deal them big blows in adulthood, and I have immense, I mean, I have known people as I, as I'm sure you have, I'm sure through your Human Laboratory radio show you've heard from people people who are abused as a child, who were neglected. I mean, that— those are very insurmountable things as an— as adults to navigate. But I think a lot of people consign themselves to, oh well, my mother was this, or my father was that, or I had this happen to me as a kid, so I'm screwed. No, you're not screwed. You're deciding that you're screwed.

That's correct.

I— we are the stories that we tell ourselves. That I so believe this. It's not actually what happened to you. It's the story that you tell yourself about what happened to you that informs the way you are.

By the way, that raises it. And we don't have to go, although we tend to go off on tangents. But this is an interesting tangent. The stories we tell ourselves.

Yes. Oh, boy.

No, no, no. I, I, I, I, There's a literal aspect to that phrase, not just the way you meant it, but literally. And I'll give you an example. When I, when I had— I've been divorced twice, and of course I'm with Sue for 20 years, and After my first divorce, I was embarrassed. I remember that was the actually the, the biggest single emotion I had other than am I ruining my child, which turned out I wasn't. But I was embarrassed. First of all, no Prager had ever had— never had a divorce. So I just felt, wow, I'm really the black sheep of the whole Prager clan. That there was a big clan, but nevertheless, you get my point. And, and I am very much into— I told you this— I, I want to know what the right thing is to do because I generally will be able to do it, but I have to know what it is. How did I screw up? That's what was my biggest question, to the extent that I did screw up. I'm In retrospect, I'm not sure. I don't think I screwed up. I don't think my wife, my first child's mother, with whom I get along great, by the way, I don't think she screwed up. We should not have married, or as David puts it, we got married to make him, which is a great attitude.

It's a good reason.

It's a great attitude. It's a good reason, yes. And I thank God I married her. But we weren't We weren't made for each other. It was just, it was, it was wrong. So I, I went to, I saw a therapist. I wanted to figure out what did I do wrong. And it turns out, I don't, as I said, I don't think I did much wrong. And I don't even, nor would my ex-wife think I did much wrong. We just knew we weren't for each other. I don't think she did much wrong, as I said earlier. But anyway, it was nevertheless, it was fascinating to me. He was a German Jew with a thick German accent from Austria. I thought I was talking to Freud.

It was really something.

Oh, he was brilliant. He was, he was brilliant. And all of this is a preamble to the point. So one day I told him of an unhappy story in my early years. I was not a happy child. I was unhappy till 14, and I was very happy since 14 to today. So I told him a story about my parents, and he said something to this effect. He said, Dennis, if we had a video camera to record that event, it may not have been exactly as you recounted. Hmm. Why did I mention this? You said the stories we tell ourselves, right? That's the phrase you used, right? Okay, so here's a good— here's a really important thing. How do we know that the stories we tell ourselves about our story are true, are accurate? It blew my mind. I, I—

it's a very wise observation.

Oh, oh, it was.

People and people don't say that to one another now because it's like, you don't— no, no, you're denying my truth, you know?

That's right. Oh, that's a great point. My truth.

Well, I'll give you an example. You know, about a year or two ago, I was on the phone with a friend and she was telling me that she was breaking up with her boyfriend. And we were talking about it and she said, I'm sad that I am doing this, but I just don't think that we're going to be compatible long term. He's a really nice guy, but I just, I think I'm going to break up with him. And she said, well, you know, but the good news is I think I can get back together with him later. And I said to her, I said, my dear, you have to operate as if you're not going to get back together with him. Because if you make the decision to break up with him but you think that there's a chance of your getting back together, what if he finds someone and then you're like, oh my God, I let this guy go and he got someone else. And I said, it may be the case that you get back together later, but When you make a decision, don't count on it.

So what, how was that related to the point?

She got a little bit upset with me. She said that I was being too blunt or too harsh, and she said, I'm just really sad right now, and I would prefer if you would tell me that there is a chance of us getting back together. And I said to her, I can't lie to you. I, I want, I so want what's best for you, and I have to tell you the truth right now.

Example of fooling ourselves.

Yes, I have to tell you the truth right now. Because this may not be what you think it's going to end up being. And I could tell you, oh yeah, for sure, you've got it in the bag, you can end up together, and maybe you do, but you don't count on it. Factor that in before you break up. So anyway, yes, it's— we don't consider this. We don't consider that the thing that we're telling ourselves might be wrong. And by the way, you know what? That's actually really freeing. That's really freeing. If you think back in life to someone, for instance, who you think wronged you, maybe you're not remembering that exactly right. Maybe it was— you can honor that it was something big to you, but maybe that person wasn't being as awful to you as you think. Maybe they thought they were doing right by you. Maybe they had their own stuff that they were going through. It's actually really liberating to know that these huge feelings that you have may not really be grounded in reality.

Yeah. What do you make of that? Well, when he said that to me, I will admit I, I gave him— I had a more charitable view of my parents.

Well, I'll give you an example of—

Does that make that make sense?

Absolutely. Yeah. No, no, I think everyone should have a more charitable view of their parents.

Well, yes, that's interesting. That's another subject. I just— that's why you said it made you— it could also make you feel better. I wanted to— I just wanted to understand your point. Of course, yes, because it may not have been as dark as you think it was.

Yes, I mean, I know, I know someone who says that she felt like her parents, or her mom specifically, didn't spend enough time with her, but her mother was caring for a for her mother who was living in the home with them and who was very sick. And what I said to her was, I don't think your mom was ignoring you. I think she wanted to spend time with you, but she was working. She would, you know, consider it from her perspective.

It's a very interesting point.

Other people are human beings, right, who inflict the harm on us. They're carrying their own stuff, right? They're maybe doing the best they can. It's, it's actually— I'm really glad we're talking about this. It's very liberating. It doesn't mean that you throw out what you're feeling.

Wait, so when you say liberating, liberating from what?

Liberating from— I think specifically in the case when you feel like something didn't go well in your life or when someone didn't treat you well, it's liberating to contemplate that you may not be remembering that moment the way it really happened.

Right. But when you say liberating, you're liberated. You're liberated from something. What are you liberated from? A dark— the scenario may not be as dark as you thought.

Yes. Or as intense or as black and white as you thought.

Right. Well, I'll fill in the answer to my question to you. You're liberated tell me if this is what you mean— you're liberated from anger, among other things. I— when he said that, I was less angry at my parents.

Yes, I think that's— I think that's exactly right. You're liberated from anger, you're liberated from hurt, and crucially, I think you're liberated from blame.

Yeah, well, that's back to your baggage issue.

But people— it's not just that people blame other people.

We don't have Forgive me, this is really a very important discussion. Would you say that as a rule people don't have charitable views of their parents?

Hmm, it really depends on the person. I think, I think a lot of young people I think a lot of people in my generation do not have charitable views of their parents because they've been fed—

right. And by charitable, I'll be more specific. You— we don't give them the benefit of the doubt.

No. And we don't appreciate how hard it is to be a parent.

Right. Well, that's part of the reason—

really hard to be a parent when their kid has a kid.

Now you'll know.

And then you raise them and then they go away. You raise them to leave you.

Yeah, it's very painful.

It's— it's— I have enormous respect for parents. But, you know, I want to bring something else up on this blame point because I think a lot of us live in a blame state. We blame our parents or we blame our boss or we blame this. I know a lot of people who blame themselves for things in the past. And while that is incredibly healthy in a lot of ways, you know, you know, I do it all the time to sometimes an absurd extent. I actually think that you should blame yourself if you're assuming you're a conscientious person. I think it's even tricky blaming yourself for things that you've done in the past because you were working with the information that you had at the time. I mean, when you married your first wife, I know you don't blame yourself for marrying her. You just said it and it brought David, thank God. But you were working with the information you had at the time. You were, what, 31? You said you wanted to get married. You wanted to be the example people in your life that you were constantly talking about on the radio, you can't years later go, oh my gosh, why did I enter this marriage? It didn't work out. You didn't have other prospects. That was the information that you had at the time. And when you're, when you're later in life, you can look back and go, oh, I wish I had moved there. I wish I had given this person a chance. I wish I had done that. You have to give your old self some grace. What do you make of that?

I know, uh, I don't— I'm laughing at myself right now, but I, I don't tend to blame myself that much.

I know you don't, but a lot of people do.

Yes, a lot.

And one of my favorite movies, you know, I actually talked to Dr. Laura about this. I interviewed Dr. Laura totally last minute, by the way, serendipitously on your show. She was here just wandering, wandering around here one day in the studio, and I said to her, do you have any personal or professional regrets? Which I want to ask you.

Wow.

Yeah. I said, do you have any personal—

What did she say?

By the way, I just want to say that's one of the questions that I love to ask people. Earlier when I was saying, tell me about the home you grew up in, these basic questions, I am telling you, ask your friend.

What did she say?

They reveal so much. She said she was sitting right here. She paused and she said, I did until I watched this movie called The Butterfly Effect. Never seen the movie. I'm going to watch it this weekend. It's with Ashton Kutcher. And it's a movie that where you can go back and change the decisions that you regret.

Oh, interesting. And then the movie shows it's like, yeah, that it might have turned out even worse.

It actually could have turned out worse.

Right? Of course.

And I know people who go, oh my God, I should have married him. I should have. I should have that. You don't know how that could have worked out. And that's quite liberating because it actually forces you to just live in the here and now, take the appropriate lessons, but don't— first of all, the great thing about the past is it's done anyway. You literally cannot change anything about it. And number two, consider that it would have gone differently. You imagine, oh, it would have gone this perfect way. Not so much.

And by the way, the same thing holds true with making a decision. If you have two opportunities, Oh, yeah. So a special, special human being that we both know. That's all I'll say. Who lives in Europe. But no, no, it's not Robert.

Okay. I thought everybody was going to know who it was.

Okay. So she— so, you know, I don't know. So she wrote me that she was torn profoundly between two jobs. And I felt— we actually even spoke on the phone— and I felt a little crappy that I couldn't give her really good advice. And then I texted her a long text saying, it doesn't— you can't know. There are, there are arguments on both sides. You can't know. You just know you're blessed that you have two great possibilities. It's not between a good choice and a bad choice. It's between a good choice and a good choice.

Okay, I, I have to offer a theory for you, and it may blow your mind and perhaps the audience's. And I want you to think of things in your own life which may corroborate this theory. I oftentimes think the things— if you look at the biggest impressions in your life, the most impressionable relationships, jobs, moments, etc., they often come from things going wrong or things going unexpectedly. I'll give you 3 examples. Number 1, one of my best friends, when we were applying to college, had a horrible draw with college admissions. And she was like captain of the lacrosse team. She played all these sports. She was the president of the class. She was a star student. She really got— she didn't— she got waitlisted everywhere. She ended up going to a college that she really didn't want to go to, and her first year was miserable. She got put in this dorm with these crazy girls, and they were like dirty, and they had eating disorders, and she had to move. I mean, it was just the poor girl. And her parents got divorced too during that time. It was just an awful time for her. She met her now fiancé at that college, third year. And I say to her all the time, I say, thank God that you didn't get into any of the schools you wanted to go. You went to this school begrudgingly. You had an awful experience. Thank God you went there because you have— and they are so good together.

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She's very close with his siblings, with his extended family. Like, she hit the jackpot. That's example number one. Give you example number two. Dr. Laura, the other day I was here earlier in the— I got here about an hour before you went on the air. And in the spirit of full disclosure, I was having terrible menstrual cramps. And so I actually left.

That is the spirit of full disclosure.

It is. But I'm telling you, for a reason, we're very real on this. We're very real.

Okay.

I was in a lot. I actually texted Sean, can you bring me Advil? He wasn't there yet. I was, I was in horrible pain.

So he never brought you Advil?

He did. It was so sweet. He did. But it was late.

What?

I get here at 8 a.m. You start at 9. He gets here at like 8:45. So I was in pain.

Okay.

Okay, so I walk over and, you know, on this floor that the front desk is on the other side of the building. And so I walk over to the front desk to ask for the ibuprofen. Dr. Laura's right there. Oh, and I swear to God, thanks to menstrual cramps, I never go over there.

No, you don't. Right.

Thank you, God, for giving me menstrual cramps. I'll give you a third and final example. When I was on my trip this summer, I was in Budapest flying to Rome. I missed my flight and it wasn't my fault. I went— by the way, do people know this? I went to the airport and the airline, Ryanair, they make you print your ticket at the airport. You travel all the time. Do you know of airlines that do that? It was a cheap airline. I go to the airport, I have to wait in line. They print my ticket and then they go, oh, you're within 30 minutes of the flight, so you can't get on the plane. Oh, and I'm like, are you kidding? And they don't have a refund policy. So it's a whole scheme. I think. Anyway, I'm so mad. I had this program starting in Rome later that day. I was going to miss it because the next flight wasn't until 12 hours later. And I went, oh my God, this— I just lost money. I'm missing the first day of this Rome experience. I'm stuck in Budapest for 12 hours. It was 105 degrees. I'm like, what the hell am I going to do? And I'm beating myself up for missing the flight. This is a great story. I Uber back into Budapest. And nerd alert, I decide I'm gonna go to the Museum of Communism and Nazism. But I'm hungry first. So I go to this random cafe that someone recommended to me and I'm walking in with my luggage and there's a spider on me. I sit down, there's a spider on me just to make the day worse. The waiter comes over, he's flicking the spider off of me. I'm like, could the day get any worse? And it was because I missed my flight. Because I went to that Budapest cafe and because of the whole spider debacle, that I caught the attention of an American couple at the next table and they invited me. We started chatting. They found out I did a show with you. They love you. They've been listening to you for years. They invite me over and they say to me, we have a son in Los Angeles. Dennis has met that son in Los Angeles. That has been a great thing in my life. And by the way, by the way, later that day when I went to the Communism and Nazism Museum in Budapest, I took so many photos and videos that when I was back in Rome, I went to Ava's wedding, our friend's wedding. I was in the backseat of the car driving to the countryside. We had an hour to kill and I was showing pictures of the Museum of Communism and Nazism. The woman who I was sitting next to was at the Roger Scruton Legacy Foundation at the University of Oxford. Oxford, and she invited me to speak because I missed my flight and was killing time. And I find this with people— I like my friend— sometimes when things don't quite go the way you think that they're gonna go, it actually ends up being a blessing for you. I know that's a very nice way to look at the world, but it's true, right?

And the— so the moral of the story—

you were talking about our friend where she doesn't know where to go. Even if, let's say, you go to a job that you hate, let's say you made the wrong decision and you have an abusive boss and all that, You could meet your husband.

That's right.

You could meet a dear friend there. You could leave that quicker and go to a third option. It's not—

so it's interesting. So I said to my wife today, I showed her the texts with this special woman in our lives, and I said to her, I, I felt that I disappointed her by not giving her advice. But I, I said to, I said to my wife, I, I purposely didn't because I know she respects me a lot and I might have tilted her decision because she was right in the middle, right? I might have been determinative in her decision and I did not want to be that because I, I don't know how it's going to turn out, how either of the choices would turn out. I did have a preference, but I didn't tell it to her. And it turns out anyway, she's going to do what I preferred, even though she had turned it down. But now she regretted it. Anyway, it's very true what you say. I will give you my example. You don't know this. I don't think you know this. And if you don't, you will get such a kick out of this. So as I said, I was a lousy high school student because I didn't do any high school work. None. I had one notebook for 4 years and there was no writing in it. Well, I was very—

could not be more different.

No, correct. I was very proud of it.

Wow.

So In New York City, when I was a kid, you, if you had a certain grade point average and a certain score on the college boards, you would get into one of the branches of the City University of New York. Queens College, City College, Brooklyn College, And I— there may have been more, but those are the ones I remember. I lived in Brooklyn, but I wanted to go to Queens College, which is a little bizarre.

Yeah, it's pretty far.

Yeah, I mean, relatively speaking, it is. But I, I thought it was a better college than Brooklyn College, and it was considered a, a bit higher level. Nobody bragged about going to Brooklyn College, let's put it that way. So I applied. This is quite a story. I was rejected from Queens College because I didn't have a high enough grade point average. I graduated in the bottom 20% of my class. And by the way, I was president of my class, even though I was in the bottom.

And the head of the anti-cheating Yes, well, I created an anti-cheating group.

So anyway, I didn't get into Queens College, so I had to go to the non-prestigious Brooklyn College. Every year, Brooklyn College at the time awarded a sophomore a fully expense-paid year abroad. Your transportation was paid, your room and board was paid, your tuition was paid, and you got a weekly stipend. It's an incredible award that they gave out.

Really seems like it.

Wow. Yeah, I won it. And that's its own story. That sent me to England for the year. When I was in England during the spring, During Easter break, which coincided with Passover, I went to visit my friend Joseph in Israel. He was that year in Israel. While I was in Israel, my name was given by friends in Israel to a department in the Israeli government that sent non-Israeli young people into the Soviet Union to smuggle in items to Jews and Jewish dissidents.

Where in the Soviet Union were you, by the way?

Leningrad, which is now St. Petersburg, Moscow, and Baku, Azerbaijan.

Oh my God, is that cool?

You're beyond cool. Freezing. You have no idea. We'll talk about that another time. And here I am. Can you imagine? I'm 20 years old. I'm being flown to the Soviet Union by the State of Israel. It's, it's almost impossible for people to imagine. I'm pinching myself the way life turns out. But this is what— why am I telling the story? Had I gone to Queens College, it never would have happened.

Yep.

They didn't have the scholarship.

Yep, yep.

This prize.

Excellent story.

Oh, it's— I think of it all the time. My last choice made all of my life possible. Because when I got back from the Soviet Union is when I started lecturing. And that brought me into public life. And the rest is history.

You know, earlier in this episode, I remarked that it's easier for men to have a chillness about life than women. And we went through that. And I stand by that. I said that I am— I said I don't have a chillness about life. I actually want to amend that. I think recently, over the past few months, I actually have gotten a chillness. And it is because of this exactly. Really going on my trip and seeing those examples of how missing the flight led to the couple and this— I mean, I could tell you many other examples actually of things that I just observed where I thought, oh God, this is so bad, and it actually turned out well. I look now at life not as, okay, this went right or this went wrong. I just look at it as, okay, this is, this is what's happening. I'll give you another example. The other night, I was supposed to meet a friend at 7:30, or at 7, excuse me, and the friend texts me and says, I'm so sorry, I'm running late. Can it be 7:30? Now, I had already gotten all the way to the restaurant, so it was annoying. And old me, I fully admit it, would go, oh my God, this is so annoying. I have to wait in my car for 30 minutes. Could this friend not have been on time? And I swear to God, the new me thinks, Okay, it's just something different. God is, God is, God is something different than what you thought may be in store for you today. And actually, I don't know when I, if I said it was a few weeks ago, it was a few months ago. That whole event is what led me to go to the cigar store that I now frequent because I was in that part of town. I had 30 minutes to kill. I had gotten back from Europe where I picked up a smoking habit. And I said, I'm just going to look up a nearby cigar lounge. And I am telling you, I walked into a unicorn of a cigar lounge. The guy is so— the guy who runs it is so nice. The people who go are incredible. He's been there for 40 years. He has such a good rapport. The most fascinating people come in and out. You don't have to pay to access the lounge. You just walk in and there's a lounge. And it's a bit of a drive from my apartment. Who gives a bleep? Thank God that he was running late. So I don't look anymore at, an old me would really think that that night went wrong or that something about that night went wrong. I now have this openness where I go, okay, what is the new thing that I'm being led to right now? Even missing, I had a flight that was delayed and maybe this is kind of corny, but I'm like, okay, Who am I supposed to— who am I sitting next to? Am I supposed to sit— is God giving me extra time to like meet and talk with somebody on this plane ride? If you just live your life with this openness—

do you literally believe it's God, or, or just—

I, you know what, I knew you were going to ask that. I think, I think it's God. Mhm, I do. Yeah, I think God interacts with our free will. He doesn't— some— I don't think he puts it in our face with shining red lights like, this is what you need right now. But I think if you're open to it, you see the things that enter your life. Do you have that view?

Well, I, I have that view, but not, not about God, because I— it sounds corny, but where was God in, you know, in—

it's not corny, it's completely legitimate—

whose lives were wrecked by Nazism and Communism. You know, just this past week, 7 Israelis are on the street, mother and a baby, one of them, and Palestinian terrorists come and, you know, shoot them to death. I know. So it's just too hard for me to think that God wills every bad thing that happens. Because if he does, then, then why are they bad? It almost demoralizes morality.

I hate how new agey I'm about to sound. Truly, I hate it. But I don't think it's so much that God is wanting to open that time to allow me to go to the cigar lounge or that God wanted me to miss the flight. I think it's— oh God, I'm really going to sound new agey. I think it's the universe.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is the last Dennis and Julie episode. I hope you've enjoyed the first 110. All the best.

135.

All the first 135.

Okay, bear with me.

I think there's a universe.

I hate it too.

Mercury, Venus, Earth.

No, I hate it too.

Wait, Neptune, Pluto.

Come on, you know, I think there's a kind of— there's a cosmic— okay, you're now— you're really gonna resign from Dennis and Julie. I feel like there's kind of a cosmic energy that you can tap into.

Okay, I swear to God, it doesn't diminish—

I think there's a kind of opening.

My love of you—

there's an openness to the— wait a minute, no, we're, we're fleshing.

All right, why does it mean the universe? The universe is a physical being.

I know, but okay, okay, God, I promise you I'm going to refine it. And I really don't like how new agey I sound. Things are evolving constantly. People, people are, people are moving, people are shaking, stuff is happening. Like, if you kind of are open to the various threads that are, you know, I heard someone say once, imagine human beings as all connected by these invisible, like, tethers, and we're all just kind of moving around. I think if you view life that way, it makes everything more significant. When I go into the cigar lounge, for instance, I really do think, why were these people— why are these people here at the same time that I'm here? I don't know if it's God pulling the strings up above, like, I want you to meet this person, though I do think God had a role with you and Sue, which is my next question to you. Mr. Deny the Role of the Universe. I think there was some universe cosmic things going on with that.

Deny the Rule of the Universe and Julie podcast.

But seriously, if you— if you view— I don't take any person I meet in my life for granted. I really don't. And I'm not saying that as a self-aggrandizing thing. Oh no, I don't take the cashier in front of me for granted. I don't take the people No, I look around and I go, okay, how did my day lead?

That there's some cosmic plan that threw you together. By the way, I'm not mocking it at all. I just wanna, I'm just trying to put it.

No, I think, I do think we're all connected to one another. I do think that there is a kind of, I mean, we're all created in God's image and likeness. There's an all, there's a filial relationship that we all have with our fellow human beings. And I think allowing yourself to be open to that, no matter what situation you're put in, makes you aligned with the cosmic order of things.

And I think things—

I didn't, but I really do now. And I know it sounds new agey, and I know I'm going to refine it, but I really do now. Well, let me, let me ask for your point of view. Do you think God put Sue in your life?

I don't know. That's, that's my most—

well, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to catch you here, but I've heard you say a few times, oh well, I do it, but I, I say it, uh, somewhat tongue-in-cheek where I say God took pity on me.

See, I, I, okay, it's The obstacle— I have very many obstacles intellectually to believing that God is the author of events in our lives. And the most obvious is so many people have been so hurt unfairly that to argue that God designed it that way, that God designed 6 million Jews to be killed, I know, 5 million Ukrainians 60 million Chinese, 20 to 40 million Soviet citizens. I mean, it's endless. Or, you know, or a family in a hit-and-run accident. Well, what do you answer to that? I mean, why doesn't that alone at least make you question God's intervention?

I completely acknowledge that it does, and, and I also acknowledge that what I'm about to say is really intellectually inconsistent, but I do think that God can intervene with good things.

And I do think— wait, wait, you threw in the word can, right? I believe God can intervene, of course.

I think that God— I think God Okay, I acknowledge that this is very inconsistent. I really do. I think with regard to evil, that's God's permissive will. He's not willing— he's not willing for that car to hit. I think it's his permissive will. I have given you the free will to be—

to do so good and evil, to be affected by good and evil, things that'll work out.

And I think it's— I think it's a soft intervent. Yes, and I think it's a soft intervention too. Yes, because he's good. And I understand this is a very romantic way to view things.

No, no, no, it's not.

But I do think there's a permissive and an active will.

Oddly enough, I don't think I've ever thought of it that way. So he permits evil, but he intervenes for good.

Yes. Like, I really—

is that a one-sentence encapsulation?

Yes. Not that doesn't mean that he always intervenes for good.

Right.

But let me tell you something. And It's going to be a compliment.

Did God direct me to open your email?

I think that was providential. I think it was providential that I found you. I mean, I had never heard of you, never heard of PragerU, never heard of any conservative. It was incredible that I found you and that the first Bible commentary I ordered was yours. That's really incredible. But with Sue, I think that God puts that opportunity in your life as a reward to you. No, I really do. And I don't care if it comes off as a compliment. You have dedicated your life to bringing people to goodness. You have dedicated your life to being an ambassador of Judeo-Christian values. And I think that God has seen how honorably and with such integrity you have acted in every situation in your life. And I think he gave you that opportunity. I do. I think that was God's act of will. And I think he has permissive will, as I've said several times, with evil.

He might have acted in my son Aaron's life.

That I'd have to think about more.

Why?

Because I think with Aaron, it was so him. When I hear Aaron's story, I mean, I think it's with the grace— what is the great saying?

By the grace of God go I.

I think we all, we all are coasting off of the grace of God to a large extent. But when I hear of Aaron's story I mean, he said it in that one amazing line: I hit rock bottom when I had— when I realized that I had nobody else to blame for my problems. When I think of Aaron, I think more of that Aaron Prager lifted himself up than God.

Fine with me either way. I think it's both. Aaron thinks it's both, of course.

Well, I, I think it's often both, but I think that God— I mean, this is a tricky one to get, get into. Because to your point, so many good people suffer. But I think that God will reward goodness in the hereafter. Definitely in the hereafter. But I think on earth too. And I think there's a— this is, this is— I hope you follow with this. I get if you don't. I do think there's a kind of cosmic order of things. Someone, Dion, who is remarkably a consistent listener of the show, he never misses a Dennis and Julie, he never misses a Timeless. We love you, Dion. He said to me something that changed my life. I call them Dionysian. He said, Julie, in his Bronx accent, we're not punished for our sins. We're punished by our sins. How true is that? I look at things I've done in my life and I go, yeah, I wasn't punished for that. I was punished by that.

Now, let me just add, knowing Julie, she is a big sinner.

You know what, a therapist actually told me that I need to go out and sin some more.

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So I'm seriously— he's like, you're too— you, you're too nice.

Um, no, no, not too nice, too, uh, too pure.

Well, yeah.

Yeah, you're not too nice. You're, you're a fighter for good.

Yes. Um, but what was I saying? It was important. Oh, Dion, this is so important. I think there's a kind of cosmic order of things. I really do. I think people are punished by the things that they do, and I think that people are cosmically rewarded by the things that they do. And I don't— that's not necessarily mean that God is always intervening. But look at exercise. This is a great example. If you, if you work on yourself, you're— it's like interest. When you, when you take out a loan, you not only have to pay back principal, you have to pay back interest. When you do something bad or something that's harmful, you actually— bad compounds on bad. Think about the other side of interest in finance. When you give someone a loan, you're, you're not only paid back principal, but you're paid back interest. You get more good for the good that you did. With exercise, when you take your health seriously, it has all these compounding effects on the rest of your life. And I think with human behavior and human interaction, the creator, the designer of our universe, God, who is good and just, has some kind of order of things which mimics the scaffolding of his love and his justice. And so if you approach people with an openness and a magnanimity humanity and a kindness, I think there's a cosmic reward for you. I think I'm cosmically— I don't know if it's God, you know, making it all happen, but by not sitting in my car and scrolling on Instagram when my friend was 30 minutes late and saying, I'm going to use this as an opportunity to meet some people, just as I think people are punished for—

I've told you that I was raised— I was raised on aphorisms.

Yes. God, do I love aphorisms.

Yes.

The Book of Virtues is Great.

Kids don't get any aphorisms. None.

I never learned them.

It's terrible.

You should write a list, Dennis.

I am. One of them, and this is all from Judaism, so there's a— any kid who went to a yeshiva like I did knows this. There's nothing special about my knowledge. So there's a very well-known one: the reward of a mitzvah is doing the mitzvah. The reward of a commandment or a good deed is doing the good deed. And the— you might say about sin, although there's no corresponding statement about sin, the punishment of sin is the sin.

Yep.

So I have I came up with an interesting theory on this. So I'm a religious Jew, as you know, as most people know. Yeah, but I'm just saying it not for you, but for the listeners.

I know.

So I try to observe the Sabbath every week. Okay, I'm pretty good about it. Let's say 46 of the 52 weeks of the year. And I, I could speak about the other 6 another time if we talk about religion, which we should. And so I have told my congregation where I speak every Sabbath, what is the punishment for violating the Sabbath?

You say this to me with Shabbat. You say, what's the punishment for missing Shabbat? Yes, missing Shabbat.

Exactly. So this is right up your alley.

It is. Absolutely.

The reward of a good deed is the good deed. And the punishment for a sin is the sin. Obviously, if you commit murder, it's just maybe a separate issue.

But that reflects a kind of— to bring it back to the universe thing, which I know sounds new agey— it evinces a cosmic scaffolding.

A cosmic scaffolding?

Yes, absolutely.

Okay.

Meaning God could have designed the universe such that when you do bad things, you can— you feel good about yourself. Or it could have been different than how you describe it. You could do— you could— you could do bad.

There are people who do bad things. I feel good about them.

That's true. But they're— but I believe they are punished for their— for their badness.

Not in this world.

I think oftentimes in this world, and I think there is justice in the world, but it's not It's not overt. And again, I know that's very romantic and it's absolutely true that great people get punished and terrible people get rewarded in this world, of course. But I think there is justice, but you just have to look for it the right way. I'll give you an example. I had a friend who had a very abusive boyfriend, very emotionally abusive and at times physically abusive. And she and I will talk about him sometimes, you know, all these years later. Thank God she got out of that relationship. And she asked me recently, she said, oh God, like, because he has a new girlfriend, do you think he's happy? And I said to her, I promise you he's not happy. I promise. And she goes, how do you know? She goes, how do you know? And I said, someone who is that horrible of an individual, I can promise you, he doesn't have any real relationships. He doesn't know real love. We all who know real love and know real companionship and know real support, we know that the reward for that is you ever get flipped off by another driver. Of course.

Okay.

I probably flipped him off back.

Oh, well, that subverts my theory then.

No, I'm kidding. I've actually never done that.

Okay. I've gone like my, my theory on these people, because they're usually the one in the wrong. Yes, that's the irony. Is it— my feeling at the moment is it's inconceivable to me that's a happy person.

Yep, absolutely right. And you know what, there are times I look back on my life and I say to myself, I should have taken that risk, or I should have done this. And you know what, I'm pleased by that.

How do you know?

Well, as we were saying earlier, of course, how do you know? But things that I, where I could have behaved differently, I was punished by that.

Oh, I see.

But back to this cosmic scaffolding, I know it sounds like a big thing, but it's true. There is a kind of justice. You see, I think working out is the best example because it applies to everything. If you work hard in life, I don't care what your situation is, if you work hard, and you behave well, some good will come out of your life.

That's true.

It is true across any situation. And similarly, if you're a scumbag and you cheat and you lie and you steal, you're not going to get through your whole life without any kind of consequences for that. And the biggest consequence is that you live your life in that diminished and degraded state. Uh, sorry, I know I'm on one with this, but I've thought about it a lot. Think about liars. I've lied before. Maybe you've lied before. It's, it's hard to lie. You have to keep up your lie. You have to remember your lie. Then you have to remember the lies about the lie.

Thing is, one lie.

There's no such thing as one lie. And, you know, then you go, oh, God, I'm not doing that one again. That one's— that's, that's a hard way to live your life.

It's like I've said to my wife, among the many reasons God willing, and so far I've kept it, I will always be faithful to you, is I don't want the— it sounds so trivial, but it isn't— I, I don't want the inner anxiety of hiding an affair.

Oh, can you imagine?

Oh, it, it frightens me because I'm such a believer in inner peace.

Yeah. Oh, that's another topic.

Oh, it's a big one. Yes, it's, it's as important as happiness, if not more important. Anyway, and, and by the way, I'm not judging people because a lot of people have affairs.

Totally.

For a whole slew of reasons, including, uh, a completely understandable one, uh, cold, cold spouse. So, uh, but It's a curse. Having an affair is a curse. There's no question what you have to do to hide it. And the body of lies— that was Churchill's, I think, phrase about how to hide things from the Nazis— the body of lies that you have to construct. So, honey, where were you at 2 o'clock? Even not prying, just curious. So where were you today? Well, I was late at the office. Oh, really? What kept you late? Then you go, well, I had to do this report for the board. Oh, really? So there's no such thing as one lie.

Yep.

So there's no what? I got that. There is no good place to end this, but we do need to stop.

I do have a final question though.

Yes.

Do you sort of understand what I meant by cosmic scaffolding?

I don't, I don't dismiss it. No, no, no, that's a big deal. I don't dismiss it. I don't know. I don't know this issue. The What, what has God created? What is his level of intervention?

I think good compounds on good and bad.

Yeah, no, no, I— that I totally agree. Is that what you meant by scaffolding?

Yes. Oh, I, I thought you meant that there are these, that there are these rules irrespective of God's intervention. There are these rules of, of the universe, of human interaction, that you tend to see. And this is a prime one.

There's only one of the Ten Commandments that has a reward. I know I'm stopping, Sean. There's one— there's one of the Ten Commandments. Do you know which one it is? Honor your father and mother. It's very interesting. The only one of the Ten Commandments with a reward, so that your— the days on your land will be increased. Your society's longevity depends—

boy, is that good.

On parental authority.

Is that good?

That's why people should read my Bible.

I was going to say, on that note, read the Rational Bible Commentary.

Yeah, question from Sean.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, oh God, I just— I would hope not.

Why would he ask that?

Because you said this is the last— he asked if this is the last Dennis and Julie. When I talked about the universe, you said, and folks, Dennis Prager here on the next Dennis Prager Show.

Yeah. Why does that happen?

Dennis and Julie.

Okay. There will be. This is not the last Dennis and Julie. I want to reassure all of you.

Hopefully it's only the beginning.

That's correct.

Oh, that's right. Julie at julie-hartman.com. Follow me on Instagram and Twitter at Julie Hartman. Follow Dennis on Instagram at the Dennis Prager and on Twitter at Dennis Prager. We'll see you next Sunday right here on the Julie Hartman YouTube channel. And we love being with you. Take care.

Bye. Shalom.

Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits three ways. One-third chooses the dog, one-third chooses the stranger, and one-third aren't sure. Why? Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions. And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive life without objective morality, and why Judeo-Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, you are in effect affirming God.

If There Is No God by Dennis Prager, available now at pragerstore.com. That's pragerstore.com.