Scrolling Your Life Away

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hello there, everybody. Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. It's Dennis and Julie.

Shalom.

Who just told you— someone in Australia told you they're a big fan of the show, right?

Oh, yes. Well, I just spoke to the Australian Jewish Association on Zoom the other night at 1 a.m. my time, which shows you how much I like them.

Yes. For you, that's very hard.

It was really hard, I will admit.

For me, 1 a.m. is prime time.

That's like 7 p.m. for me.

Yes, that's right.

Your 1 a.m. is like 7 p.m. for me. But I was really energized when I went on the Zoom. And what was really touching, Dennis, was how many people raised their hand to ask me a question and said, I love Dennis and Julie.

I love— Australia.

Yes. So shout out to the Aussies.

Well, it shows you the power of the internet for good, just as it is for bad. It's not just for bad. I mean, there would be no PragerU without the internet, just as an example.

It's interesting that you bring this up because I have been contemplating for some time now getting rid of my social media. And I can't see Sean, but I'm sure Sean is shaking his head and thinking, oh my God, because it's a good way. It's like the only way that we're advertising my, my show right now. And frankly, Dennis and Julie, that's the primary way that it gets advertised. I deleted my— I've talked about it on Dennis and Julie, but I deleted my personal social media because this was like a year and a half ago because I thought it was just unhealthy and a time drain and not good for me. But I have contemplated getting rid of even my professional social media.

Really?

Yes. That's what I meant when I—

why?

When I first said it, because I just think that— that I think it's an evil thing, social media. I really do. And I hear you that it's a— that it can be a force for good. But I—

when you say professional, so you would not have a Twitter account, is that correct?

Yes.

Or do you use it now?

I do. I just think it's, you know, you can't—

it can take over your life.

It can. And I don't let it take over my life, but I even find that I'm spending way too much time on it. And I'm pretty, pretty moderate about this stuff and I regulate myself. But even to, to bring up an unfortunate subject, even looking at the spat between Ben Shapiro and Candace Owens and then the spat a few weeks ago between Megyn Kelly and Candace Owens. I just look at that stuff and I go, this is not— this is just not facilitating goodness. In some cases it is. But if we're like Twitter warring with each other and also literally the way that social media is designed is to make what you have to say incredibly concise and simple. And you're the king of being concise. You're excellent at it. But also when you only have 280 characters on Twitter, you sound off and say—

That's exactly right.

I just think it's evil. And I think if I, again, I'm considering this, if I lead by example and say I'm not partaking in this, I'm not saying that people will necessarily follow, but—

It's an interesting point. So I want to tell you something I've never said to you. Obviously, I mean, it's not some gigantic revelation, but I think I've thought about this a lot. I don't have— I have a Facebook account, but I don't even know what goes on there because it's all professional and others monitor it. But if I were not a public figure, I personally think I would love to have a Facebook page.

Really?

I am so interested to know what cousins are doing and nephews and nieces and friends I haven't seen in 20 years. I would revel in that stuff.

I understand what you're saying. And of course, as we've been remarking, it's not all good or all bad. There are some very good parts of it, including being able to see what your relatives, friends are doing. But I think that you maybe have a romantic fantasized idea of what you would learn. A lot of people— I was actually thinking about this today.

That's interesting.

A lot of people who in real life I would judge to be very kind of— what's the word I'm looking for? Moderate, not narcissistic people. You see them on social media and they're like posting the yogurt that they ate. It— some, some people are very different online than they are in real life. And so I think you have this idea. I would see that my cousin climbed Mount Kilimanjaro.

Wait, that is interesting. So explain that to me. What— I know you're right. I know of it. I haven't really witnessed it because I'm not on Facebook. But so people will do that. I mean, without exaggerating, this is what I had for breakfast.

Oh yes. Oh yes.

Okay. I know this will sound, or I assume it'll sound silly. Why?

Well, that's the million-dollar question.

Why? Well, no, why? Forgive me, Julia. I'm interrupting.

You're forgiven.

Okay. Thank you. I'm not asking why psychologically. That I'm interested in, but I'm asking why in a very pragmatic way. Does anyone care?

No, no one cares. But, but there's a culture on social media of doing that. It's very weird. It's very difficult to explain. I'm not, I'm not sure I could even do it. But there you just— it's a really interesting experiment in social contagion because people see other people posting their breakfast pictures and it's very common for people to post their food when they go out to a restaurant. And I don't know if they're trying to show Hey, I have a social life, or, hey, I'm getting out and here's my fancy pasta meal, or if they're just seeing other people do it and they think they have to do it. But it is very—

you've actually seen this.

Oh, people will post.

You're right. I'm totally— I'm totally ignorant.

You could— I could pull up my Instagram for you right now, and I bet if I looked at the top 3 stories, one of them would have a food picture.

This is what I ordered in the restaurant.

Yes.

So here's another question. Since this is all revelatory to me, is it more likely a woman will do that than a man? Yes, I would think that.

Yes. But you'd be surprised.

There are a lot of men who have to believe that a guy who posts, this is what I ordered at the restaurant. I don't want to— I truly don't want to offend anybody, but it's not very masculine.

I know. It's not. Do you see now why I have this allergy to it? I think it, I think it makes us brain dead. It's obviously a time drain.

And okay, so now I'll go to the what you thought I asked originally.

Why psychologically?

Or why? Yeah, what animates— I mean, the thought that I, even if I were a private individual, I wasn't a public person, the thought that I would put out for anybody. This is what I had at my restaurant. It's inconceivable. If I did my— as my wife would put it, I would have Dennis rushed for an MRI of his brain. He was probably having a tumor.

Here's what I think it is. I think it started off as— for the average person who posts a food picture, I think it starts off as a social contagion. They see other people on Instagram doing it and they think, that it's cool or they're— it's kind of like what you do on Instagram and that's why they post it. I think there's a sprinkle in there of wanting to show people I am out at a restaurant, I have a social life, I am, you know, I don't just stay at my apartment all day. But I think if I really got down to the psychological reason for it, I think it's because we have so lived our lives online. Social media, especially in my generation, is a feature of life, not a bug. It's not like we have our lives and then social media separate. Social media is in large part our life. And you know what I think it is? I think that we have subconsciously internalized the idea that if we don't post about it, we don't take a picture, it didn't happen.

It didn't happen.

Seriously. No one would consciously— it's very subconscious, but it's sort of like the food will be better, or like the experience is—

I understand that.

Weirdly, the— like, I think they think the experience is more real if I post about it, which is so fake. It's very, it's very, very odd. Oh, we could, we could talk about this the whole time. I mean, people, people post with their friends, and I think that's a way of like solidifying— if, if your friend posts of you on social media, or you post with your friend, that's a way of making the friendship real. Like, we posted together, they're on my social media page, so they're my friend, instead of just actually knowing in real life and in private that that person is your friend.

Post now, what, what medium are they usually using?

My generation is very, very Instagram.

Okay, so explain to me— I know this is pathetic that I'm—

No, I love it. It's so refreshing to me. I love and admire it so much that you don't know this world.

Thank you.

No, seriously, thank God.

What is the big difference between Instagram and Facebook?

So Facebook, I think, is more long form. Like, I mean, it is, it is more long form. You can post a bunch of pictures and videos and then write really long captions. And that's good and that's bad. If you're following like Barry Weiss on, I don't use Facebook, but I can imagine if you follow Barry Weiss or Douglas Murray and they write these kind of long things, you're gonna get something of quality. But if you follow your average friend or your average cousin, This is why I said I think you have a romantic view of what you'd be learning. You would be surprised as to how many people use it as a forum to just talk about themselves and the mo— and report on the most— so the minutia of their lives.

So it fosters narcissism.

You have no idea how much. You have no idea how much.

You're right. I have no idea.

And girls my age, and this was so prevalent when I was a teenager and it's still prevalent now and I just turned 24. People plan out their posts like meticulously and they will take, so let's say you're at the Eiffel Tower. People will not only take one photo at the Eiffel Tower, they will take 300 and you think I'm exaggerating when I say 300, I'm not. 300 photos at the Eiffel Tower. Get me from this angle, get me from that angle, get me with my shirt, get me with my sweater on, get me with my sweater off, get me in the photo with my boyfriend, now without the boyfriend, now laughing at a pigeon, haha, look at the pigeon. Like literally they stage these different photos, some of them candid, some of them posed, some of them with this outfit or that outfit, and then they go back to their hotel room and for 3 hours they're scrolling and they're editing, they're making their waist look slimmer, their arms look slimmer, and then once they've done that, it's all about the caption. You have to come up with a witty, maybe a pun about the Eiffel Tower or something. And it takes their whole damn day while they're in Paris. That is the generation that I live in. And even people who I in real life respect and who I think are like thoughtful, no-nonsense people will succumb to that.

This is so revelatory.

I need to do it. Sean, would you write this down? Because I'm going to forget. I need to do a really, really deep dive on Timeless about social media. Yes, it's evil.

So I read a lot about it.

It's—

social media is sort of like, for me, sports. I don't watch almost any games, but I read about it. Okay, I know what's going on. But I really— as I say, so I read about this. So somebody recently made the point, and I'm sure it's not original to him, but doesn't matter. I, I wasn't It wasn't something I came up with. And that is this person's belief that social media is a contributor to the unprecedented amount of loneliness among young people.

Yes. Oh, yes.

So there's an irony, a theoretical irony. Here I am in touch with so many people all the time, and I'm lonelier than ever.

Yes.

Does that make sense to you?

Yes. Oh, I, I've felt it myself when I use social media. You get this false sense of being connected to people and you spend all of this time.

Well, the operative word is false.

Yes. And, and you literally— it's like it's sort of like the precursor to AI or it's sort of like, do you know what Club Penguin is?

No.

Club Penguin is this site that I, that I was on when I was younger. And it's basically like this digital world for kids. And there were parental controls and all that. It was really fun. Like, you pick your outfits and you were penguins in this world and you picked like which shirt you were wearing and you picked your friends and you picked— and it was just like this cool interactive world. That's basically what social media is. But Club Penguin is a kid's game. Social media is a thing that everyone uses. People curate their lives online. Instead of actually like living their lives and shaping their lives in real life. They'll curate this whole timeline of, or these posts of places they were.

So with everybody do, or not everybody, with all the people who were doing this on Instagram.

Almost everyone.

Okay, almost everyone, fine. Well, you need to, you're devoting all this time to presenting yourself?

Yes.

Are people looking at it?

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So with everybody do— or not everybody— with all the people who were doing this, almost everyone. Okay, almost everyone. Fine. Well, you need to— you're devoting all this time to presenting yourself?

Yes.

Are people looking at it?

Yes. But people mindlessly scroll. And I've done this. I have gone to bed and sometimes I'll go on social media because, you know me, in my mind I'm tortured and I need to, like, distract myself with something. And I will find for 30 minutes I'm just scrolling and looking at baking videos or videos of people like making silly putty. It's just my— the kinds of videos that come in your feed are just mindless.

These are not part of your feed. These are just random.

They are part of my feed. They're planted in my feed. Instagram has suggested things.

So who Instagram has suggested? So were you literal about the silly putty?

I'm totally literal.

Yes, so, all right, so good. So walk me through that. How does Julie Hartman get a feed on making putty?

Well, if I were a conspiracy theorist, I would say that these social media creators and titans are trying to make me dumber.

With your permission, as it were.

Yes, because I—

Okay. Okay. But clearly— Wait, so you didn't sign up to receive that feed?

No, I didn't. I don't follow like a silly putty making Right.

That's so— well, that's what I'm asking. Then I don't understand. How do you get silly putty feeds?

So there are people you follow and you get that feed. Every, every person you follow, you see their posts. But then there's this suggested page on Instagram and you go to that. Yes. Yes.

And so you might have signed up for a silly putty making.

It's not like signed up. It's like they— it's an algorithm and they—

I know, but the more you— you have to say yes.

Well, you click on it. That's how you say yes.

Okay, fine. Why did you click on it?

Because it's mesmerizing.

Okay. That's what I want.

And because they make you addicted to this. I mean, TikTok, the whole like they, they design it to increase your dopamine levels and to have.

Okay, so walk me through that. What's the difference between Instagram and TikTok?

TikTok is like short, like 10-second videos.

And what is Instagram?

Instagram, you can post videos and photos and write longer captions, but not as long as Facebook, but not as long as Facebook.

So it's a, it's a length issue largely.

Yes.

Facebook largest, Instagram, Instagram second, and then TikTok.

TikTok.

So that's really pathetic.

Oh, and it's designed—

TikTok is truly mindless.

Yes. And this is— I mean, to bring this back to this whole Israel-Gaza conflict, this is, I think, a large contributor of the kind of radicalism that we are seeing because these social media accounts—

oh, I'm sure you're right—

pump out this propaganda, especially TikTok. The Chinese Communist Party is feeding us all this pro-Palestine from the river to the sea. Israel's a war criminal.

Right. And you only need 10 seconds to tell a lie.

Yeah.

You need a lot more time to tell the truth.

Now, that's a pillow quote. Well, that goes on a t-shirt.

Did you ever hear it? There is something— there is an aphorism like that about truth. Yeah. Yeah. A lie travels faster around the world than The truth takes to put on shoes or something like that.

Well, the analogy that I—

wait, wait, wait. I cracked Sean up, which means I got it wrong. And Zach put it— I got the gist of it. Okay, go ahead.

There is the analogy that I use is it takes one day less. Actually, it takes one hour to knock down a house. It takes 5 years to build it back up.

Yes, of course. Well, that's the left in general. It just, it only destroys. Tell me something the left has built other than governments. Really? I would like to know.

That's another t-shirt. That's a great quote.

Yeah, you're right. That's a good point. So what are you on? All of them?

So I personally am off all of them professionally to make people aware of my shows, to tweet out my thoughts.

So why wouldn't you want to continue that?

And Instagram? Because I think, I think there needs to come a point in society where all of us say no. We're not going to live our lives online. This is a net negative than a net positive. And I, I really believe in the power, as corny as it sounds, the power of your individual example. And I, I just want to kind of lead the way of getting rid of that.

Which is the one that people keep reading is bad for girls because they have all these girls modeling and Instagram makes and makes other girls feel that they're physically inadequate?

Probably Instagram.

So what happens on Instagram? So they— so a lot of girls model, so to speak, do bikini shots and the like?

Yes.

Yeah, on Instagram.

Yeah.

And, and I also— is there such a thing as OnlyFans?

Yes, but I know nothing about that. I really, I really don't know anything. I think it's like a pornography site or something. Well, or I don't know.

Pornography has so many gradations, like so many other things. I, I— what I know of it is it's girls modeling, uh, graphically but not naked. Because— is that correct? Zach is an expert. Yeah, exposed. Anyway, the point is not to analyze that as much as which is the one that they claim has a bad impact on girls?

So all of them. I mean, literally all of them. But I think social— I think social media. I think Instagram. It's hard. And I'm pretty healthy. And I've never had an eating disorder in my life. I've never had the urge to, to starve myself or anything. But I even remember when I was a teenager seeing these photos of girls who'd take mirror selfies or they'd take bikini pictures and they looked so thin and so good. And it gets in your head. It's really hard. And you know, another thing, just to further my case for why this is evil and why, again, I think there needs to be a movement of, of us collectively saying no, we're not partaking. So much of this gender stuff is—

that's right—

spread on social media and TikTok especially by the Chinese Communist Party, which does not allow transgenderism or homosexuality in its own country. But they know that it's a good weapon. To spread and confuse the minds of people in America.

I have seen— and everybody should go on, ironically, go on, on the internet and see— there was at least one. I'm sure there are many videos that show the difference between TikTok in China and TikTok in America.

Oh, I bet. I bet it's—

it is so healthy in China. It's teaching kids, you know, how to do gardening and how to do constructive things. And they know exactly how to learn skills.

They know exactly what they're doing to us.

Well, and we're doing to ourselves, and we're doing it to ourselves.

Yes, I will. Let me tell you something, and I'm saying it here and now, and I will never change my mind on this. My children will not have social media until they are at least 16. If I had it my way, I would never— they would never have it for their entire lives, but obviously I can't control them.

So at a certain point, my grandchildren are being raised by my son and daughter-in-law in an Orthodox Jewish home, and they— right, Orthodox Jews don't use electricity on, on Sabbath, on Shabbat, so they don't use— they don't have social media. So when I visit my son, who has two sons and, and two stepdaughters, and we regards, like daughters. So when I visit them, it is as if I have returned to 1950s America. I bet I have the chills telling you this, partially because the room is freezing.

But nevertheless, thank you for saying that.

Yes, I was on—

just for the record, it's always freezing in here. But if Dennis is freezing, you know it's frigid in here.

Yeah, or Dennis is not well. But, but I presume it's because it's freezing. So this is really something. I go there and all I see— there must be 20 kids their age. One is, uh, one is 13, one is, uh, what is he, 7 or 8? And they each have like 15 friends over and they're just running around and playing. They're just playing. So there was no TV, no computer, no phone.

Yeah, that's, that's the way that my kids are going to be raised in my house.

Yes, that's right. So they're not lonely.

I know, it's, it's really bad. And I mean, I go out with friends and you're sitting with them at a restaurant and they're on their phones, they're just scrolling through social media. You go on dates and people just bring it up.

Is that right?

Oh, yeah, of course. Definitely. And you know what? So I—

so unclassy.

God. Well, only you would observe that. And you're totally right. And that is just the tip of the iceberg as far as the—

well, by the way, I'm sure your generation doesn't even use the term classy.

No, they don't. They don't. They wouldn't. They wouldn't know it if it hit them in the face.

That's correct. I know it because it would be objectionable because it implies that there are classes.

And it implies that some people are classless.

Yes.

And you can't make any moral judgments of anyone.

That's right.

What did you just— we were saying, oh, dates. Oh, okay. So I've spoken about this on Dennis and Julie with regard to my peers at Harvard. And not just picking on Harvard, but, you know, kind of like elite schools in general. And I said, I came up with this line a few years ago, and I know I've said it on Dennis and Julie, that when so much goes into the resume, there's not much left in the person. And I observed that a lot.

Great line of yours.

In my high school and college, these people, and you go, oh my God, like they, They like started, you know, their own organization and they, they, you know, like built homes.

They marched for Tibetan monks.

Yeah. Like they, you know, and then you meet them and it's like they are the dullest human beings. And again, I, you know, I have like the best friends at Harvard. I'm not saying everyone, but there was a large— you go, oh my God, these people must be like superstars. So here's, here's the analogy. When so much goes into the social media profile, there's nothing left in the person.

That's— they're both true.

Sorry, go ahead. You can see I'm animated about this.

No, I— you, you have a right to be. So you and I just had a long discussion about this, actually. I was blessed beyond words to be given wisdom at a very early age. I take no credit for it. And So as I, as I said to you privately, and I'll say now publicly, I did no schoolwork throughout high school. I didn't give a damn what college I went to. I ended up at Columbia for graduate school because in college I did give a damn, but I didn't care about where I went undergraduate. I cared about living life. I, I knew— do you know that I wrote Do you— what do they have today? Did you have to write an essay or a composition on some theme in English class?

Oh, yes.

Yeah, right. 2 pages, let's say.

Yeah. 2 pages. I wish.

Okay, well, so of course, all of ours was handwriting. We didn't have— at the time, we didn't have any computers, you know, word processors. I wrote in my sophomore year in high school And I hope I still have it. Actually, I'd love to show it to you. The theme was, I want to prove George Bernard Shaw wrong, that youth is wasted on the young. That's right.

You did, Dennis. You proved him wrong. From what I know, from what I know about you, obviously I didn't know you then.

I wouldn't have proved him wrong if I just did all my homework. I would have wasted my youth. So I learned what I wanted to learn. The world, shortwave radio, the Russian language, how to conduct orchestras. I went every week to the New York Philharmonic Library. I mean, I'm an abnormal human being. What kid is going to do what I did? You know, learn Russian and how to conduct orchestras. Okay, I agree. I'm abnormal.

Only you.

I agree with that.

Only you.

But my point is not that I'm abnormal, which is clear. My point is I, I knew that was not living life. Just studying for tests and doing meticulous homework. My parents thought I was— I know you didn't. Well, you got into Harvard and I got into Brooklyn College, but that's fine. I, I, I retained Dennis Prager.

Yeah.

Your point is you lose yourself.

You do. You do. It's sad. Well, you know, it's changing so much now because— and I've talked about my high school. I mean, my high school is barely recognizable in 2023 from the, from the school I went to graduating in 2018.

Yes.

It's like it's totally different.

Right.

And the rigor that has gone down. I mean, the— is it rigor or rigorousness?

No, rigor is rigor.

Yeah. Has gone down and it's so woke and so crazy. I mean, I could, I could get into—

So the exact same teachers and principals?

There's been, there's been some turnover. They hired a DEI director. There's a new principal, but the old principal was pretty woke. But some of the teachers have left. But yes, there are a lot of teachers who remain there. And I, I don't, I don't think they think highly of me. I want to tell you about a book that Dennis Prager says has been one of the most influential books in his life. It has been re-released. George Gilder's Men and Marriage. George Gilder, who I interviewed on my show Timeless, has been clear about the stakes for the family since 1974. 50 years later, the need of the hour remains. Men that take responsibility for themselves. Men who love their wives. Men who raise their own children. Men who tackle the workforce motivated by their family and the needs of others. Without fathers, our civilization will sink back into the Stone Age. We must bring dads back or else. Get your copy of George Gilder's classic book, Men and Marriage, today at dadsareback.com. If Dennis recommends it, it must be a great read. Civilization needs strong men. Without dads, we're toast. Get George's book at dadsareback.com. And I, I don't, I don't think they think highly of me.

Oh, I'm sure they don't.

But let me tell you something, not to brag, I was beloved at that school.

Well, how could you not be?

I was beloved.

You were the perfect student.

And every year, and again, I'm not saying this to brag, it's just, it's truly fascinating for me.

No one thinks you're bragging.

I won the character, like the, you know, the, You are a character. No, but the like character award every year in the, you know, was all of that. And again, I don't say that as a brag whatsoever, but it's amazing.

So they're not inviting you back as an alumna who did well?

No. And I've heard, I've heard, and some people have even told it to my face. And by the way, I'm sure there are some teachers who agree with me or who respect my right to do what I'm doing, but they're not gonna come out and tell me, they're gonna remain silent about it. So I wanna, I don't wanna paint all of them there with one broad brush, but I have, I've heard through the grapevine and I've also faced, or actually online been told by former classmates and teachers how disappointed they are in me. And that's sad. It's interesting for me because one of the things I want to ask them, especially the ones who smear me as evil or unkind.

Well, not teachers to be right. No, no, no.

Teachers. Fellow students. Teachers never did that ever. Thank you. Thank you for clarifying that. But what I want to say to them is like, do you think I just like totally changed my character? But you know what I mean? I guess that could happen. Have you ever seen someone who started off really nice and then they became really— Oh, that's interesting.

Yes, it's very rare. There is a human being that I had a friendship with. It's the only case in my life that this happened. And he became evil.

Wow.

And I— it's the only person I know who I would describe as evil. It's a, it's a very odd case. I will also say this, uh, when I knew him and he was a sweet, intelligent guy, he was religious.

Oh, and now he's not?

Oh, he's not just not religious, he's an anti-religious atheist. Publicist.

What do you think happens to someone like that?

Because my— I don't know the answer.

My question for the high school classmates was like, do you think I just totally like changed my character? Like, why do you think I won the character award every single year?

What is— what, what do you mean when you say I, Julie Hartman, am evil, right? What, what constitutes my evilness?

It's literally like talking with toddlers. I mean, the level of stupidity.

Well, Ignorance and the inability to answer.

Oh, I mean, I don't even try to get into it, but it's just, it's really interesting. Like you, I had a sterling reputation. You knew, like, do you think I just, I just threw that out the window or I just—

So they had, I'll tell you what they would say. You sold your soul for money. It's a very common—

Where's the money?

I know that's a separate, that's right. They don't, they say this about all of us.

Yes.

Oh, yes. Oh, Prager. Oh, he's a conservative because that's where the money is. Are you joking? That's where the money is. 99% of the money in this society for advocacy is on the left.

Oh my God. I mean, I didn't sell my money or my money. I didn't sell myself for fame. I'm not famous. I didn't sell myself for money. I'm not, you know, making millions of dollars. I didn't— I mean, I've lost friends. I mean, this has been a huge— and by the way, I'm so grateful for this career. I love it. Changed my life. It's elevated my life. There have been a hell of a lot of sacrifices. You know, they just, they just think you're right, that, oh, she just did. People, you know what, forgive me, I know you want to say something, but I want to make this point.

I'm fine.

This world that we're in, the conservative, public-facing, talk podcast media world, it's such a rarefied world. I, we should, we should really discuss that. As I've told you, I've never, and I mean never met someone who's on the air who isn't lovely in person and gracious. And I've met Hollywood people who are, you know, growing up in LA, I've met Hollywood celebrities and some are really nice and some are really not nice. But in this conservative media world, everyone is off the air exactly who they are on the air. And being at this conference that we were at in London, which we haven't talked about on Dennis and Julie, by the way, you know, so much of it was networking. And what was so amazing, I observed this was like, all of us are networking with each other to like, try to facilitate the most amount of good. Like what other world where you're like exchanging business cards and you're like trying to like get to someone solely because you want to save Western civilization and like do the most amount of good. And so I think that the reason why there are so many genuine people on this side is because we really, many of us, and obviously there are probably some, but like many, almost all of us are doing what we're doing for a cause that's greater than ourselves.

That's right.

We're not, you know, like we're not selling out. A lot of us are not selling out for money.

So I was raised, a liberal, a Democrat, and of course a Jew.

Redundant.

Almost, almost. That's right.

In Brooklyn.

So my life has ended up with conservatives, Christians, and what did I say? Liberal. What were the three things I said?

Liberal, Democrat, Jew.

Oh yeah. So Republicans, conservatives, Christians, and they're just generally really nice people. Oh yeah, I'm not going to say there aren't some, you know, bad apples, but that's inevitable. But yeah, it's really— you— it's really struck you?

Yes, so much. I mean, again, I, I Everyone who I— I shouldn't say everyone, but almost everyone who I encounter in this world, they're just so, so genuine and genuine, very genuine.

As you said, the same off the stage as on the stage.

Yes. Because look, maybe there are some people who are coming into this. I'm not going to rule out the possibility that some people may see like a benefit in being conservative and being public. But there's a lot— there's so much sacrifice and vitriol that you have to endure that you have to be a true believer. In order to do it, right? A true believer for goodness.

Because that, that, uh, it's a term. Do you know the term the true believer?

No.

Oh, I knew you didn't. That's why I'm asking.

What is it?

You can read this in an hour and a half. Eric Hoffer, The True Believer.

Okay.

Eric Hoffer was a longshoreman and a philosopher. A very rare person. He was brilliant. You read The True Believer, it'll be one of the best books you've ever read.

Oh good, I'm excited.

Yeah, I know you are.

I will read it.

Yeah.

So what is it referring to?

No, no, True Believer has become synonymous with fanatic.

Right.

You know, the person is a true believer, he doesn't question himself, he doesn't question anything. I'm just— I know you didn't mean it that way. You meant it literally.

Yes, we truly believe in the cause.

Yes. And that is absolutely accurate.

And that is what motivates us above anything else.

So I want to read to you something I read in The New York— in The Atlantic, because I'm mostly— I was telling my wife just yesterday, so I spent— I flew, flew back and just flew back from Florida. A week without flying is not possible for me.

I am so sorry. Don't forget. Can I just say one quick thing?

Yeah.

Also, just finally on this rarefied environment world, everyone is very happy for one another. That's another distinguishing factor.

And I think each other—

I remember when I first started working for you, Candace Owens left PragerU to go to Daily Wire. And I said to you, how do you feel about that? And you said, it's— I'm so happy for her. It's great. It's all about the cause. And I saw this at ARC. I saw this at the conference, like, like when someone was up on stage, like everyone watching was really happy for them. And, and it's just, it's a very healthy environment because we're all trying to help each other and help ourselves to facilitate the greatest possible good. I'm so sorry.

Go on. No, no, no. It's a non-issue. So, uh, I was telling my wife how much time I spent on the plane reading The Atlantic, which is on the left. And, and then I was telling the same thing to Alan. I, I actually— it's almost bizarre, the, the interest I have in reading those I don't agree with. Do you know that's why I learned Russian? To read Pravda, the Soviet Communist newspaper. I have always been fascinated with the opposition and especially with the left. How, how and why do they think what they think? So anyway, so I was reading a very long thing.

So I want to read—

huh?

Do you not get angry when you're reading it? I tend to get angry.

That's an interesting question.

It's so— it just, it so repulses me that I do read it, but I, I feel myself my mood getting—

I'm very controlled in that world, in the emotional world. I mean, I'm very emotional, as you know, but I'm— I don't react emotionally to that stuff. I, I think I— first of all, I expect awful, so I'm not— I'm never shocked. Sometimes they say stuff that's just so vile that I guess it does. But anyway, so David Brooks is a New York Times columnist. I remember him from before he was at the New York Times. He was actually, I believe, with the National Review. He started out on the conservative side. Today he's not a leftist. He's one of the few non-left. He's liberal, but he's not one of the lefty. And he's absolutely irrational on Trump. I mean, there really is Trump Derangement Syndrome. People stop thinking clearly. But that's not the point I want to make. So he wrote a piece on— he thinks about big stuff, which I like, obviously. And why has America gone into moral decline? Which is a perfect—

so he admits that there's been a moral—

yes, he has. He doesn't admit the left caused it. Okay, well, that's what drives me nuts about him. But it doesn't matter because I get a lot of data. So listen to this piece of data. I want, I want to share this with you and everybody listening or watching. According to research by Ryan Streeter, who was at the American Enterprise Institute. Definitely have him on my show as a result of this one line. Ready? Listen to this line. See, it's— I read very slowly, and one of the reasons I read very slowly is because I want to understand every word that is said. I learned to read, in effect, studying the Torah. And you learn it by reading it very carefully and always asking, what does it mean when it says that? Why doesn't it say X? Could have said X better with Y. Okay. Lonely young people— this is going to fascinate you— lonely young people are 7 times more likely to say they are active in politics than young people who aren't lonely.

I have been talking about this for years. Leftism is a way for people, especially young people, to find meaning. Meaning going to a protest, posting on your social media, putting these stickers on your computer, trumpeting out what you believe is giving people a life purpose.

Absolutely.

If you don't know what you are, what you want to do, what you— but like, that is a really compelling default.

So it's interesting that the term is the low— the basis is lonely. I will assuage my loneliness in politics.

And you know what's great about that, too, for them? They feel like they're a part of something. They're feeling like they're, you know, around other people and they're less lonely. And it's a way to channel anger about their own lives, their own loneliness, their own lack of purpose. And they, they sublimate that rage and that dissatisfaction and project it onto America.

That's correct.

That's what I think that— I think I observed this last week. I think the basis of Trump Derangement Syndrome is that people feel like Trump is a really easy and socially acceptable outlet to voice their rage about things that they don't feel comfortable actually expressing their rage about in their own lives.

Wow. The people you know who hate Trump at this.

I think that's the case.

Yes.

Why? So when I know you didn't want to, you said that Trump Derangement Syndrome is not the point I'm making or the point I'm focusing on. But forgive me, I do want to ask and then we'll get back to this. What do you think is the basis of Trump Derangement Syndrome?

So you're the, the reason for my hesitation, but I will answer you, is I know some of the most prominent Never Trumpers in the country. Hmm. So it's very, it's a very emotionally difficult subject for me. Because I have been friends with some of them. They're really— they're very famous individuals, and I'm sure very deep, good people. Well, they're deep and good in, in almost every other area.

Yeah.

See, if you don't like Trump, I have no issue. I don't think he's terribly likable. But who cares? Why isn't the question that people ask, or should ask, is, is individual X good or bad for America? Not do I like— do I like politician X is a narcissistic question because I don't give a damn whether you like Trump or not. It is of no— I don't care if you like me or not. I care if you think I am doing good for society. Is— did he— he had 4 years as president. Was the country better or worse because he was president? If you— if you are at all honest, it was better.

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If you, if you are at all honest, it was better. You— it is a dishonest answer to say it was worse. It was economically better. The world respected us more. There was more— less— far less chaos in the world. There was no defund the police movement. The border was at least beginning to be closed. I mean, the Israel embassy was moved. Every president promised they'd do it. They all lied in their promise. Republicans as well. The Abraham Accords. I mean, the list is gigantic. The country was feared, as it should be. When I asked Neil Ferguson, one of the greatest living historians of Harvard and now at Stanford, and when I asked him on my show, I had no idea what he would say. I give you my word. Would Putin have invaded Ukraine, in your opinion, if Trump were president? There was not more than a nanosecond between my question and his answer.

No.

And I believe that. Why didn't he invade while Trump was president? Why didn't we have the chaos of the Middle East while he was president? When America has a weak nothing as president, the world becomes chaotic. And this is my message to conservatives as well who go, well, it's not in America's interest, not in America's interest. Oh really? Chaos in the world is not in America's interest? When the hell did you come up with that idea? Some of my fa— this is another subject entirely because isolationism is really on the rise among some really wonderful conservatives, the people I respect. But the idea that we only care about America? Since when do we only care about America? God or nature or life allowed America to be the richest and strongest country on earth. So that we only care about America? Is that a moral consideration? Is that an American consideration? But anyway, we should talk about that another time because it's a real big deal, the isolationism that is arising. But I'm obviously passionate on this because it's pure narcissism. I don't like Trump, therefore I will oppose him. I don't care if you like Trump. Why is that not relevant? It is irrelevant that you don't like Trump. Do you like America? Is the only, only valid question about a public figure.

The argument used to be, I don't like Trump and I think character matters and are the example to the children, all that stuff.

They don't believe character matters. Biden is scum. Biden is the worst human being to be president in my lifetime, maybe in America's history.

Amen.

He is a bad human being. That's my belief. But it's irrelevant. If he were a bad human being and did good for America, I would be thrilled he was president. I am not here to judge people's lives. I am here to judge people's presidencies.

I agree. But I'm saying that that used to be the argument, and it's an asinine argument, the character argument for a president of the United States. If you're picking a husband, okay, I get it. But when you're picking a president, if he cheats on his wife, I mean, come on, we have bigger considerations. I'm not saying it's not bad, but you just articulated it beautifully. My point is that used to be the argument. And since January 6th and since all of these legal entanglements in these indictments that Trump is in, now people are saying he's a threat to democracy. There are no— have you noticed that people are no longer using the likability argument? They're using the right, but he was fomented in all that.

Well, okay, trust. But they said— but they said he was a fascist before January 6th. This is phony. Oh, it's because of January 6th. Before January 6th, they said he was a fascist and an anti-Semite and a neo-Nazi and a white supremacist. And they made up the lie that he said Nazis were fine people in Charlottesville. It's a lie. And we documented in a PragerU video I love that video, by the way.

Really good, really good one. Yes, I think, I think you're right that it's narcissism. And I am fascinated by this idea, the idea of the modern self. Carl Truman wrote a very good book on this. I think it's called The Modern Self. I think it's called The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self. I interviewed him on my show and his book really influenced the way that I understand so many of our issues now. I think we acknowledged this in the last Dennis and Julie, that so, so many of these issues reflect a narcissism and a cult of self. Student loan forgiveness. I shouldn't have to pay back a loan that I took out. I shouldn't have to have responsibility for that. You know, this push— trigger warnings. I shouldn't have to be made to feel offended or uncomfortable if I don't want to. Even, even abortion. And, you know, I'm very conflicted on the subject of abortion. But there is this idea, how dare someone else tell me that I have obligations to someone else other than myself? How dare someone tell me that I have an obligation to my unborn child or to the man who impregnated me and is the father of this child, or to society and to greater moral principles about the, you know, divinity? If you look at every— the pronoun— the— or yes, pronouns, you know, you should have to—

what about you? You should have to have me on your swim team.

Yes.

I'm a guy.

Or bathrooms. I. If I want to go into the woman's room, even though I have a penis, I should be like, it's all me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. And so our conception of ourselves is. It's no longer rooted in, okay, what is our obligation to other people and how do we become more like ourselves through fulfilling those obligations. Now it's just, you only have an obligation to you, and anybody else who's telling you otherwise is an antiquated bigot. And so, yes, I think Trump derangement syndrome is like this. If I don't like him or if I, you know, am reviled by him, then everyone else has to march in lockstep.

I want to read to you how bad, since we got on the subject, and it is deranged. It's a syndrome.

So here I know many people who have it.

Yes. Here is this David Brooks, who is, as I say, not a leftist, but has it bad. In this long piece in The Atlantic that I spent almost 2 hours on the plane analyzing and so on, and it has a lot of good stuff in it, but when it comes to— listen to this— an ancient brand of amoralism now haunts the world. Authoritarian-style leaders like Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, and Xi Jinping embody a kind of amoral realism. Trump, Xi, and Putin.

Also, what is he saying with amoral? I hate this academic jargon. One of the things I love about your writing is that it is both profound and very clear. I don't like isms. I don't like, like, words that end in— tell me what the hell you mean. What does that mean? What are the last two words? I just said them.

Amoral realism.

I'm sorry. I don't think I'm stupid. I'm not saying I'm the brightest tool in the shed, but I don't think I'm stupid. What is amoral realism? Tell me, what is that?

That's a reach of his.

It's academic jargon BS. Yes.

Okay.

Doesn't mean anything.

He's lumping Trump.

Oh, I know. It's beyond belief, as you would say. It's beyond belief.

That is what I would say.

I know.

By the way, when you said earlier, it's me, me, me, me, me, me, me.

Yep.

How many mes do you think you said? I actually counted it.

I think I said 7, 'cause that's the song. Me, me, you know, the singing thing.

Me, me, me, me, me, me. No, it was 6.

Yeah, me, me, me, me, me, me, me.

No, no, it was 5.

This would be a good meme of us.

Okay, anyway, it doesn't matter. I just thought it was funny.

Uh, how many did I say, Sean? Did you count?

He writes here, it's fine, it's fine to elect people who lie, who are corrupt, as long as they are ruthless bastards for our side.

Wait, wait, I'm sorry. Read that one more time.

This is— he's speaking about people who vote for Trump, how they think, or these other horrible—

Okay, so read it one more time.

It's fine to elect people who lie, who are corrupt, as long as they are ruthless bastards for our side.

Okay.

So you ask what exactly? You ask what, what animates it. And it's not, it's not entirely clear. It, it really isn't entirely clear because a lot of these people think clearly on many other issues and then all of a sudden fall off the cliff when it comes to Trump.

Oh, sorry, I just had something that popped into my head. I think that there are, I mean, there are gradations of everything. There's gradations of goodness, gradations of evil, gradations of sin. But I think there are gradations of people who are willing to be moral fighters. And I found this when I started being public with my beliefs. I remember doing episodes, or I think this was when I was on your radio show every week. And I wanted to talk about January 6th, or I wanted to talk about the vaccines was another issue that was very contentious at the time. And, you know, the efficacy of the vaccine and how it's been pushed on us, all of that. And I remember having this debate with myself, should I go there or should I just talk about issues that are pretty, like a lot of people can get behind, even if the left will hate me, you know, I should talk about police. Everyone can— a lot of people can get behind that the defund the police movement has been crazy. Should I just talk about the border? Should I just talk about wokeness and leave kind of the more hot topics like January 6th and vaccines out of it? And I remember having this debate and I said to myself, no, Julie, you can't go 80% of the way. If you're going to be an asset for goodness and for what is right, you can't go right up to it but not cross it. And as you say, I remember I asked you, you know, how do you decide what to say on air? Because you, I mean, you go, you go there with everything. And you said to me, if it's true, I say it. And since you have said that, I have internalized that as my modus operandi for, for my, for my life and specifically my professional on-air life. And so I think there are people who are good people, but they want to maintain, you know, a certain kind of— they want to remain in the American elite. I'm sure David Brooks wants to still be invited to the fancy galas and parties and social events. And he knows that if he goes there, you know, if he goes 100% of the way morally, then he will not reap the same personal and professional benefits. And if he just goes 80% of the way and withholds, Does that make any sense?

Yes, it makes perfect sense. And ironically, part of me wishes that were true entirely. I think it's partially true. I really do believe he genuinely hates Trump.

I know. Well, that's— yes, that's another thing. Yeah, he's a true believer.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's the use of the term. I mean, to write these things Look, it's— so here, here's an interesting thing. So you, you quoted me to you, 'If it's true, I say it.' Yep. So to your credit, you said to me privately something to the effect, 'It's— the whole thing is about truth.' What— how did you put it? You put it in—

I wish I remember saying eloquently on the phone. I won't be able to replicate, but yes, but every So here is my newest thinking on this. Okay.

I have said for many years the most important trait for goodness to succeed in the world is courage. I, I would now say it's tied with telling the truth, and that in fact I would go one step further— they're almost synonymous. It takes courage to tell the truth. When I do the Male-Female Hour, to show you how ubiquitous this concept is, I do the Male-Female Hour. I tell the truth about men and women, especially about men.

I know you do.

Yes.

And I kind of marvel at it. I mean, you really go there.

It's gutsy.

It is gutsy.

It is almost never said what I say on the Male-Female Hour.

And we've talked about stuff on Dennis and Julie and Sometimes it's embarrassing, you know, going, going there and acknowledging certain subjects. It is embarrassing, but you do it.

People are, are afraid of the truth.

Yep.

But you know that great line in the New Testament, the truth shall set you free? That is in fact the case. The truth does set you free.

And as I say, the truth is good.

That's your line.

Truth is created by God, and the truth is good. If you get down to the truth, you'll see that men and women are equal. Races are equal. If you work hard, if you make yourself into a good person, you know, good things will happen to you. I— you say you have an erotic attraction to the truth. Yes, I concur, because the truth is good, right?

And when I say that, it's not just a cute line. I am excited by it. That's what's—

what the truth is uncomfortable, but it's good.

Yeah. But I will say Generally speaking, in my life I have found truth much more calming than disturbing, even when I don't like what I hear. Because you—

you can give an example?

Well, where it would be truth about someone I like and, and it's depressing, or truth about, uh, look, the flaws of America, and I love America, right? But I don't want to live in a make-believe. I don't want to live— I have one life to live. I don't want to live in a make-believe world. I don't want to live on stage where the lines are fed. The entire left is rooted in lies. It's a world of the lie. That's why they accept men give birth, because the truth is not here. I have a proof on that, by the way. One of many proofs. When I say something and the left attacks me, which is ubiquitous on the internet, they never refute what I say. They just call me a name. And why is that? So I'll give you an example. I wrote it. I wrote a column about a year ago about all the race hoaxes on campuses. A noose at a black kid's dorm room, a swastika on a black kid's door of his room, whatever.

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All the race hoaxes on campuses, a noose at a black kid's dorm room, a swastika on a black kid's door of his room, whatever. And I gave, I think, I don't know, 12, 15 examples of hoaxes. And I said, my belief is that if there is a noose or a swastika by a Black kid's dorm, that it was not placed there by a white racist, but by either a white leftist or a Black student, usually a Black student. So I was totally attacked, and this is the attack: that's racist. Which of course doesn't deal with the question, is it true? And then they say Prager offered no— nope, this is common— he offered no proof of his argument.

You listed all the sources.

I listed at least a dozen examples. Wouldn't you think that they would say, to prove that Prager's not true, here are a dozen examples of real racists doing the noose thing. Yes, but they didn't give one. All they did is say I lied and that I'm racist because truth is not a left-wing value. They're not aware. Wait a minute. The counter to a lie is the truth. Tell the truth. The counter of a lie is not an attack on the person. That does not counter lies.

No, they literally— they don't. Every single response that they give is transphobic or like—

and it's about you, not about what you said.

And one time I was having a debate with a— well, I've had many debates with many leftists, but in college. And he was saying, you know, this is— that's transphobic. And I said, try— let's play a game. Let's play a game. For the next 10 minutes, you are going to— you're going to just try really hard to believe that I am acting in good faith, even if I'm not acting. Let's just set some rules here. Let's play a game. Assume I'm acting in good faith and make arguments to me for the next 10 minutes that have nothing to do with a phobia or an insidious proclivity I have to hate a certain race or whatever. Let's just— it's impossible. They don't know how to do it. They don't know how to argue based on the merits of their argument. The one time I have heard there are some issues like immigration. I've heard people talk about like the, you know, we need workers. You know, I've heard some people make, make arguments on the left on some issues that don't have to do with, with phobias or whatever. But 90% of the time it's about—

if not about a certain— the overwhelming argument against those who have wanted not to have open borders. Xenophobia is xenophobia.

Yes.

That's right.

Yeah.

Racism and xenophobia.

You know, something I've thought a lot about is it has amazed me, especially in the past 3 years, really since 2020 when George Floyd died. It has amazed me how people could still remain on the left before 2020. I mean, because I was on the left, but I was also very young. I could get it. But things have gotten so bad. And so obviously ridiculous and evil and irrational, not just with the police, but the border and all of this wokeism. And I mean, the list goes on. I look at that and I can't understand how there are still some people on the left. Do you ever have that thought? Like, after all that has happened?

Well, it was never rooted in truth, by the way. The George Floyd thing. You know, I've never said he was murdered.

I know.

Because I care about truth. I do not believe that Derek Chauvin murdered George Floyd.

Well, you noticed I just said George Floyd's death.

I know, I know. I'm just making it even clearer to those listening.

See, that's a great example of going all the way with the truth.

That's right.

And that's hard. It's really uncomfortable.

Oh yeah, that is a good example. Yes, that's right. Truth and courage are identical. That's correct. And this is a good example. To say George Floyd was not murdered opens you up to massive amounts of hate, as if you're okay with killing blacks, which is sick. There's not a cell in me that is okay with killing blacks. But the evidence, I mean, it's the whole story about what the, what the What is the— what are they called, the ones who do the autopsies?

Morticians?

Yeah. Was it— no, no, no.

Yeah.

Who—

what is the name of it?

Anyway, so, God, I can't believe it. You can't remember it and I can't remember it. No, no, it's the one who does autopsies.

Autopsitarian.

Yes. No, not mortician. All right. Doesn't matter. Maybe it is mortician. Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right. Don't keep guessing. So it's, it's the guy who did the autopsy. The doctor said he was not, he was not killed and then changed it because he knew he would lose his profession and maybe his life. And, and so people don't know that, that his first report was he wasn't killed.

And it's amazing, too, how people will use— will take one thing you say and then literally, like, metastasize it to paint this picture of so many layers of bigotry. Like, for instance, when they say, oh, Dennis Prager says that George Floyd wasn't murdered, that means that he's racist. That means he's okay with killing blacks. That means that he is, you know, doesn't think what Derek Chauvin did was wrong. They don't see nuance with anything.

No, because truth is not a left-wing value.

I can— we can both say that the evidence indicates that George Floyd was not murdered by Derek Chauvin.

Coroner.

Coroner. That's the— that's the word. Wait, but is the coroner the one that performs the autopsy?

I believe so.

Oh, okay.

Or the one who extrapolates from the autopsy what happened?

Two things can be true at once. A, that the evidence does not indicate that George Floyd was murdered by Derek Chauvin, but also that Derek Chauvin should not put his knee on the neck of George Floyd.

Now, that was— by the way, that was a training, right?

That was a procedure that they did.

But right. They don't see any nuance on the left. It does not lead to death.

Right.

That is why it was a police tactic.

But they don't— they think because you say that, then you're somehow endorsing Chauvin or endorsing it. It's like, oh my gosh, it's just—

it's right. And it's like Media Matters for America, which a lot of the left-wing places use, is a lying institution. All they do is lie. Yeah, I know, because I am the object of a fair number of their— they just they cite you in a lying way or they wrench out of context. Prager said he wants to use the N-word.

Yes. Yeah.

As a perfect example, all I said was saying N-word, whereas you could say every other horrible word like kike for Jew is crazy. And I even said calling a black person is despicable. And I said it. They didn't quote that part.

I know. Hence why I often marvel at how so many people can be on the left. Now, let me clarify. I can understand how some people are not, you know, super right wing or not Republicans or not conservatives. I get that. I just don't understand how after all that has happened, after seeing how rancid and despicable and just awful—

say that about any evil ideology.

How are there so many people still?

The, the God is disappointed in his creation.

Yes, he saw.

Oh, are you ready? It's a great thing to end on. I want to, I want to read to you something. I didn't— I'm going to do this on the air. This is awesome. I'm a big, big fan of Benjamin Franklin.

You know, oh, you should read Stacy Schiff's biography of him. I had her.

Okay, good. I will. Okay, thank you. So listen to this. Benjamin— Benjamin Franklin to Joseph Priestley, June 7th, 1782. The more I know of men, the more I am disgusted with them. I love this. Men I find to be a sort of beings very badly constructed, as they are generally more easily provoked than reconciled. More disposed to do mischief to each other than to make reparation, much more easily deceived than undeceived, and having more pride and even pleasure in killing than in begetting one another. For without a blush they assemble in great armies at noonday to destroy, and when they have killed as many as they can, they exaggerate the number to augment. The fancied glory.

It's really depressing.

And then it totally—

it's really—

you ready for the final line of this? A virtuous action it would be, and a vicious one, the killing of them, if the species were really worth producing or preserving. But of this I begin to doubt. To me, wisdom begins— the famous phrase in the Bible— with the fear of God, and that's true. Wisdom begins with the acknowledgment that human nature is not basically good. You cannot have wisdom if you believe people are basically good. You are automatically a fool, and every doctrine you will develop from that will be foolish.

So you can tell that someone is rich by the clothes they wear, the cars they drive, the jewelries they have. You can tell someone is privileged by the beliefs that they hold. If you think that someone is basically good, you are.

No, no. Human race is basically good. There are a handful of people.

I say someone.

Yeah.

Oh, oh, I phrase it as individual. If you think that the human race is basically good, you have lived a cushioned.

That's right.

Padded.

Yep.

Privileged, to use the favorite word of the left, the P word. Privilege. Privilege. Privilege. If you think that the human race is basically good, you are the most privileged person in the world. But in all likelihood, yeah.

So that's my man, Benjamin Franklin. Another person I greatly admire, my wife. She thinks God should not have spared Noah.

I have to say, I was going to bring it up, but I didn't know if you or Sue would've been comfortable. I have thought about that. I have thought about— when I first heard that, I thought, oh no. But seeing how much evil there is in the world, she may have a point.

She has a point. I don't agree with her, but yes, I'm not so sure that I agree with her because she has a point. Well, that's what Franklin— that's what Benjamin Franklin said. That was his last line. If the species were really worth producing or preserving. But of this I begin to doubt. I'd like to have met Benjamin Franklin.

He— get in line.

So what's the name of the book? Did you read it or did you just have her?

No, I read her recent biography of Sam Adams, which was spectacular. I have not read her.

Oh, okay. But if that was—

I believe it was a Pulitzer Prize finalist. She's won the Pulitzer Prize.

That's a bad sign for for me.

Oh, really?

Yeah. They're interesting. They're dummies at the Pulitzer.

Well, she's, she's, she's a really, really good writer.

They gave the New York Times and Washington Post Pulitzer Prizes for their lying about—

Oh, you're right.

Oh, no, no. Their record is despicable.

Well, she won the Pulitzer Prize for her book on Cleopatra, I think, in 1999. So it was hopefully better then.

No, no. I won't say that. Look, McCullough got a Pulitzer Prize for his biography of Truman. And it was great. It doesn't— all I'm saying is it doesn't recommend it. It doesn't non-recommend it and it doesn't recommend it. I don't have as much respect for the Pulitzer Prize as I do for the Nobel Prize, by the way, just in peace. The Nobel Peace Prize.

Yes. As a quick aside, so Sam Adams and Benjamin Franklin were similar in a lot of ways, but their their lives up until the revolution were quite different. Samuel Adams had a very unimpressive life for his first 40 years. He was kind of a nothing burger. He didn't really have a career. He didn't really have— and then he became— Thomas Jefferson called him the leader of the American Revolution, that it wouldn't have occurred without Samuel Adams. Benjamin Franklin, on the other hand, was so impressive from the get-go. He was a polymath. I mean, and I look at someone like Benjamin Franklin modern society could never produce someone like that. With all— I mean, didn't he like invent certain spectacles?

Yeah, no, he was amazing.

Yeah, I mean, he had all— I mean, talk about like diversity of capabilities.

Did he discover or prove electricity?

Yes, I think so.

Yeah.

I mean, these are not like small— these are huge, huge things this one man did.

That's right.

If you want to feel bad about yourself, read about Benjamin Franklin. If you want to feel good about yourself, read about Samuel Adams.

Well, it's a very funny way of putting it. However, I love reading about people who are better than me.

Oh, me too. It's inspiring.

It's exactly, exactly— how can people reach us? By having you tell them.

Really?

Yes.

You don't want to give it a go?

That's correct.

It's been weeks.

That's part of the problem.

Okay. You can reach me at julie@julie-hartman.com. I love hearing from you. And if I don't respond, please forward it to me because I want to try to respond to as many of you as I can. And you can follow me, at least for now, on Instagram and Twitter @JulieRhartman. And you can follow Dennis on Twitter @DennisPrager and on Instagram at The Dennis Prager. We'll see you here soon. I think this was episode 89. Isn't that amazing?

Is that true?

We should bring in champagne when it's 100.

Correct.

And maybe you'll even drink it.

I will.

I don't even like champagne, actually.

Oh, no, actually, if I have to drink something, I like champagne. Bye, everybody. Thanks.

Shalom.

Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits three ways. One-third chooses the dog, one-third chooses the stranger, and one-third aren't sure. Why? Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality is If morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions. And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality and why Judeo-Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, you are in effect affirming God.

If There Is No God by Dennis Prager, available now at PragerStore.com. That's PragerStore.com.