Seek Joy

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hi everybody, it's Julie and Dennis Prager. I knew you didn't expect that.

I made it.

I know. I knew she didn't expect that. Nobody expected it. But Sean begged me, said Dennis, throw her a bone. What? Yeah, throw her a bone. That was good. Throw her a bone. That's what he said. Yes, throw her a bone. Hi everybody, Dennis and Julie. Dennis Prager, Julie Hartman. What number is this, by the way?

Do you have any idea?

Sean, do you have any idea? It's in the hundreds, right? I mean, 100-something.

I love this show.

Hundred and teens. I, we both love it.

We, I know.

And you're, you're afraid that if we say how much we love it, we're gonna turn some listeners off. It is true. And you may be right.

Well, I actually, I used to be afraid of that. I'm not afraid of that anymore because I think that, I think joy is the, the center of so much in life.

So here, so here is it. I got, I haven't yet. You're right. But I have even a bigger thought on that matter. That just hit me. Do people enjoy performers? And in a certain sense, we're performers. I mean, that's an element of what we're doing, and I have no problem saying that. Anything that you do in public is a performance. But whatever term you wish to use, do people enjoy talk show hosts, commentators, actors— well, actors, well, they're acting, so you can't tell. But people doing what we do, let's leave it at that. If they sense that that individual is not liking it, in other words, does my— I'll just be personal. So 40 years of talk radio, I am certain that people know I love what I'm doing. And that's a big factor.

I think it's everything. And this is something that I'm really trying to embody on my show. And I have loved doing my show. It's just the thrill of my life. I think what I've been realizing recently is that I've been very focused on delivering an excellent, like, just superb product in terms of information and insight. Well, thank you. But I think what's even more important than that is truly just being joyful and having fun and being a great person to spend time with. I hope I've been that too. But I, I noticed my— I'm, I'm starting to shift a little bit more in, in this direction because it, as I said, joy really is the center of everything. And I think what attracts people to performers is if they're enjoying it. Who wants to watch someone who, who seems miserable.

It's really interesting that they sense it, and I'm not sure that they're aware, and they don't have to be. But I got to believe it's true for just about anything. I mean, say you're a baseball fan and you just know the pitcher is pitching solely for money. The guy can't stand the profession he's in, but he's good at it. He makes millions of dollars. I, I think people would sense that.

They absolutely would. You know, it's— we spoke on this show a few episodes ago. I don't know if you remember, but about intuition and gut and energy. I called it like the hippie dippy episode because it was so kind of out of the realm of what we discussed. But some— I've been really reflecting on this. You know how animals consent, fear. Fear.

Right.

I think human beings, we're not even conscious.

Interesting.

But I think joy and a lot more than that, or the opposite of joy or the opposite. And I don't think that we're always aware of it, but we subconsciously, I think we get a real sense of a person more than our brains would admit to us.

Yeah. Well, There's— what is that? Well, yeah, okay. Passion is infectious, he's saying, and we have discussed that.

Yes.

But I was thinking as well, I mean, what you said is the gigantic issue of— what is the famous statement? The heart has reasons the brain does not know of. Something to that effect. Why did I— I mean, it's true for everything. We— what does it mean you sized up a person? Hmm. It's all been— almost all has been on the basis of cues that they emit that are not verbal. It's not something they said, but you, you pick up. And a person who has joy in his work I really, I mean, again, as usual, we didn't even plan on this, but I'm thinking my dad was an accountant. So my, it's a very beautiful story, I don't know if you know this. So my father ached to be a doctor. That was his first love, medicine. But there was no way his parents could afford him in medical school. It was out of the question. Parents were— my grandmother had an icebox. You even know what an icebox is?

Isn't it like a primitive refrigerator?

Well, primitive freezer, basically.

Freezer.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, or a fridge. Yeah. Literally an icebox. And in any event, I mean, he supported them once he earned a living, but he couldn't be a doctor because he couldn't afford medical school. So he became an accountant, and to my father's enormous credit, he learned to love being an accountant. Isn't that interesting?

That shows a lot of strength of character on his part.

Oh, well, my father had that. My father was not a particularly warm dad, which I'm not saying at all as a complaint. It's a non-issue to me. But he was a real— he was much more important than that. He was a good role model. I had a real moral masculine man as a father. That's a big deal. But he radiated joy in being an accountant. Well, you know why? Among many reasons, you— because you think— I certainly think, God, I would rather collect insects. But my father had, he among, see this is to his credit, he had a massive joy in saving his clients money legally. His view was you should pay the government as little as possible without breaking the law. So every client was this enormous challenge. That was one reason he loved it. Here is another, by the way, you'll find this is really interesting, 'cause I remember he talked about it a lot. He said, Dennis, when you know a person's income, they will open up about everything in their life. And he was right. People are more willing to talk about their love life, their sex life, than they are about their incomes. I'll bet you that close friends better know how, how good their marriages are than they do what their incomes are.

It is so true.

Isn't that fascinating? And I don't know why, but it's fascinating. So he said, Dennis, you have no idea. I didn't end up a doctor, but I did end up a psychiatrist. Because once I knew their income, they opened up about their wives and they opened up about their kids and they opened up—

It's almost like seeing someone naked.

Oh, that's right.

That's what it is.

There are people who would sooner be seen naked than let you know their salary.

Oh, of course. Oh, okay. That, that is something that, that we could unpack. But, but on this point of, of joy, I love that this story of your dad finding joy in what it was.

Exactly.

Because, Well, okay, I'll, I'll say this one thing. So a couple nights ago I went to Jordan Peterson's talk. He's on this Struggle with God tour here in Los Angeles. By the way, if people can go see it in their city, go see it. It's absolutely spectacular. But one of the many things that he said was that we have a moral response. It's actually reminded me of what you say about how we have a moral responsibility to be happy. He said we have a moral responsibility to figure out what it is in life that brings us joy and chase that. And he said that's totally different than being a hedonist.

Totally right.

Completely right.

Yes.

He's not saying, you know, no smoking a joint, right? Or eating a croissant at, you know, 4 in the afternoon on the beach brings me— okay, no. But he's saying in life, you know, so many people are stuck in their jobs or they're stuck in their situations and they want something they may not know quite what the alternative is, but they yearn for more. But then they think, oh, I can't, you know, go out and do that because of the constraints of my situation. Sometimes that's true. You do have constraints in your situation. But what Jordan Peterson said is, if you can, you have to go chase that thing because otherwise it will make you bitter and you will descend down into the dregs of resentment and disappointment and lost potential. Because every human being has that internal frustration of not living up to their God-given potential. So that's the first thing. But the second thing is, if you can't change your situation, I think there is such a lesson in your dad's—

Yes.

What you're— what you just said about your dad.

Oh, it's such a credit to him.

Because barring— of course there are things in life, like it's difficult to find joy in getting chemotherapy. Okay. You know, it's difficult. There are some things in life we're not talking about about that. But even in the mundane, or even in, in some situations that are not ideal, there is a joy to find it if you're willing to see it.

So I wrote about this in my happiness book, now that you mentioned— now that we're carrying this on further because it's so important. And I'm trying to figure out in which chapter I wrote this. It doesn't matter, but I, I would like to have cited it just in case people have the book. So is this a— this is Dennis's trivial analogous situation to my father's. When I rented my first apartment after leaving my parents' house when I was 21 years old and I was graduate school in Manhattan, so I got a— I got an apartment in Manhattan. I had no desire to live in a dorm. I had noticed I had— it was far away from, from the school, from Columbia. It was very far away. But I got an apartment and they only had, or they had it at a cheaper price, ground floor apartment. The theory was nobody wanted a ground floor apartment. The reason, the biggest reason, it shows you how long crime has been an issue. I was 21 and crime was a big issue in Manhattan. It's much easier to rob a ground floor apartment than a 5th floor apartment. Okay, let's be honest. And what was the other— oh, people are walking by, everybody's going into the elevator, so everybody passes your apartment. And everybody had a million reasons why they didn't want a ground floor apartment. So I got stuck with a ground floor apartment, and I give you my word, I Within days, I convinced myself how lucky I was. And I had my reasons. I go, everybody else, they come back with packages from going shopping, going to the grocery store. They have to go into the elevator and then go up, get their key. I just walk right in as if it's my own house. I just walk right up to by the door. And I thought, what, am I lucky or what? They all have to stand by the elevator. I just walk in anyway. That was my, my analogy to my father. If you're stuck with X, celebrate it.

No. Okay. This is so important. And I feel like it's been the— it's been your vocation for your entire life to, to show this to people. But the most important thing in the world for a person to have is a good worldview. I mean, think about Dennis and— this is what we try to do every single episode of Dennis and Julie for ourselves, for others. We try to get to a good worldview. Isn't that an amazing thing? No matter what your situation is in life, if you have a good worldview, you can—

you mean attitude or worldview?

Well, I sort of view them as synonymous, but perhaps attitude is the better term for it. You know, like, so we've talked on the show in recent episodes about how much I hated swimming growing up.

You cried into your goggles.

I did. I cried into my goggles. I, I, I was doing competitive swimming, which people know, but in case they don't, I'm just giving the background. I was a competitive swimmer from the time I was 5 years old. And the, the good news and the bad news is that I was really good. That's good and bad because it's good to be good at something, but I hated it so much and I stayed with it because I was so good at it. Um, even though I hated it. And I really was miserable for a lot of those years. I, I just— it's such a— forgive me if people like swimming, but it's so isolating. You're, you're cold.

Oh my God, I love that.

It's—

I, I'm with you.

Oh my God. And, and also, it's competitive swimming, just for, for hours a day, staring at the bottom of the pool, not being able to talk with anyone.

It is an isolating— I never thought about it.

So isolating. And, and you know me, I'm a social person. I love talking with people, and I was really miserable for a lot of years doing that at a competitive level.

So our lesson is—

I know you don't want to just hear me go on and on about how miserable I was. Um, come on, I, I know that's what you want to hear. I know that's what everybody wants listening to.

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep going for 5 minutes on it. You see, you're, you're, you are great. Go ahead.

I actually was getting to the lesson, which is I know it sounds weird. I look back and I wish I had enjoyed it.

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I both objectively acknowledge that I was miserable.

Excellent.

So, but I wish that I had gone, okay, there's something good about this.

You're moving. All right. So in retrospect, do you think you could have? Do you think you blew it?

I think, I think a lot of it was that I was mentally mired in my misery. And I stayed in it. I mean, look, I was 8 years old. I didn't have the capabilities to, like, change my attitude towards it. But I think if I had changed my attitude towards it, I would have liked it more.

I want you to know, it's funny because I know I've never talked about this publicly and not because I hide it, but it just never came up. So it's a, a question I've asked about life and I don't have an answer to. Can you be great at something and not enjoy it?

Yes.

So you— no, no, right. So you're— see, I think, for example, somebody who's great at piano playing, all right, because I think in terms of music, right? So are there great pianists who don't enjoy it? I don't have an answer. I suspect if they've gone into it professionally, they do enjoy it, right? But I mean, there's so much pain in becoming a great pianist. I don't know the answer, but your, your example is a very powerful one. You were terrific. You were a championship swimmer.

Yes.

And you hated it.

Hated it. But, but again, see, I was a championship talker and I loved it.

No, not as a— that's my analogy and it doesn't fit.

But I look, I look back and again, as I said, I was 8 years old, or, you know, I was so young that I'm gonna give myself the grace. It doesn't matter.

Yeah.

I wish that I had changed my attitude towards it because then I think, I think instead of looking at every day going, oh my God, I have to go to practice. Oh my God, I'm lonely. Oh my God, I'm staring at the tiles at the bottom of the pool. Oh, I should, I should have, I should have flipped it. I should have gone, I'm exercising. I'm, it's cool to be in the, it's kind of a fun feeling being in the water.

Well, or, or even people would think it's cool to win. It's cool to win.

I see when I was winning, what I was so focused on was I need to keep winning. What I should have thought is, good for you, you won. You know, it's, it's just, it's fascinating to see that if I had just flipped it, it would have been better.

So another way of phrasing my question is, can you have a gift and not enjoy it? You had a gift.

Yes.

You worked damn hard, obviously, but it doesn't matter. You had a gift. I could have worked damn hard. I never would have been a championship swimmer. And I did know how to swim, and I do know how to swim. I was a junior lifeguard. I mean, I knew how to swim, but it was not a joy in my life. So you can have a gift and not enjoy it. That's an interesting thing.

No, that's the important point of this discussion, but I think the second important point is on this subject of joy, even when you're, Even when you're not enjoying something or you wish something were different, I think there is a way to make it better if you just decide to make it better.

No, no, that my father, the Max Prager attitude. All right, I'm an accountant. I'm going to really enjoy it.

And this is apropos of your line, which I love. This is maybe one of my favorite Dennis Prager lines. If nothing's horrific, life is terrific.

It's, it's huge. It's, it's huge. And it is, it's a guideline in my life.

Like going, going back to the swimming example, I wish I had just said to myself, you're not in chemotherapy, getting chemotherapy. You're not a woman in Iran, you know, having to wear a hijab. Like you're okay. Yeah. You don't like this sport. Yeah. You're staring at tiles and you're cold, but okay. Find a way to enjoy this. Do you, do you have a, thing like that in life?

Oh, a thing in life? It's a daily— how do you think I came up with it? It's a daily belief. That is.

But you're so— see, it seems so easy because I, I know you so well and you find joy in everything that I forget that, well, that's how you've made it.

Well, by the way, that in— that is in part a gift. The number of things you see— you know what is interesting about gifts? You have to learn that it is a gift. Yeah, because you think it's normal. So I thought it's normal that I get enthused about so many things. And you know what? I know the day that I— it was brought to my attention that I have this inordinate ability, and it's a gift. I take no credit for it, to find incredible joy in so many things. So it happened when I was the director of this institute in California, which is why I was brought to California in my 20s. And there was a very big problem. I had big problems with my board of directors often. They were all on the left, I was on the right. Not all, but many. And they were not happy I was the director, let's put it that way. So there was a fair amount of tension. So one of my close friends who I brought to work there comes into my office, the director's office, and he sees me going through my stamp collection. I haven't paid attention to that in decades, but it was one of my many hobbies. And then he looked at me, and then he went and told another friend, Leonid telling Joseph, for those in my life, but you may know them, and so I'm mentioning it. And he said, you know, Dennis is so lucky. He can enjoy so many things, all his hobbies, all his interests. And that awakened me, in me, the realization not everybody has that.

But you see, here's it. I know I'm repeating myself, but it's worth repeating. You made yourself into that person. I think maybe it is a gift.

I have built on it. I have built on it. I enjoy elevator rides that I made up. I decided I want to enjoy the 60-second ride with these strangers that I acknowledge that, you know, Joel Alperson's line about me.

What?

Dennis has more fun in an elevator than I do in a day.

See, you've, you've learned that.

No, no, that I created. I agree, but the built-in— I mean, in high school I had all these interests, they so excited me. The only thing that I wasn't interested in, you'll love this, was school.

I know. Well, we do know that about you, which is so—

Exactly.

But again, you were doing all these outside things.

Yes.

People need to understand you weren't slacking off. Oh no, no. You were doing the exact opposite.

Right.

God, it's so interesting because so much of what we talk about on Dennis and Julie are things that I'm working on, like, outside of the show, or I'm trying to adopt in my life. I am really, really trying to pursue this very thing, joy, and in all of it, I salute you. Well, you— I'm laughing because it obviously is a compliment. Sorry. But You were talking about what a great role model your dad was to you. You are such a great role model to me in this category, among others. And it just shows that the most powerful thing that you can give a person is a good example. That is, you can give someone a list of all the things to do with their life, and it could be infinitely wise, but there is no substitute for seeing someone do it themselves.

And so you've really done this for me, but You know what I discovered this in you? You'll crack up.

Discovered what in me?

You're working on finding joy in more and more things.

You're aware that I am doing that?

Oh, totally. Oh. Yeah, yeah, believe it or not, I'm aware. So I'll tell you exactly. So this will prove that I'm aware. So for those of you who are watching or listening, Julie was at our house, my wife's and my house, and you asked me, what are you looking at on the computer? And I said, inks, fountain pen ink.

Yes.

You came over and I would say you spent 25 minutes.

It was so fun.

Well, that's the point. And I want you to know that was impressive to me because you could have easily said, oh my God, fountain pen inks, I'd rather be swimming.

Well, let me— okay, this is, this is so interesting. I'm so glad we're discussing this. Let me tell you what I did. It's fascinating that you observed that. That was the— I don't know, maybe that had an impact on me because let me tell you what I did in that moment. If we're being brutally honest, we are. I sat there and I told myself, you're going to learn to like this right now. I did. When you said I'm looking at that, there wasn't like a little part of me that went, oh my God, he's looking at fountain pen ink. I'm so, you know, enthused, overwhelmed.

Right.

I parked my butt there. I looked at the screen and then I, I told myself there is a joy to be found in this. And I know it sounds contrived. Maybe it started contrived, but then I really did find the joy in the thing.

Oh, I believe that.

Does that make sense?

That makes sense. That's why I raised it. And so I knew what you were doing. This is proof that I'm saying this. I didn't think you woke up that day and thought, boy, I hope I see fountain pennings by the end of the day. I, I think you said to yourself, I knew you were doing that, damn it, I'm going to enjoy this.

Yes. And I thought, okay, there's a reason why Dennis, who— and, and that doesn't mean that we always have to have the same interest, but I thought, this is someone who I really admire, this is someone who I'm very similar to, there's a reason he enjoys this, let me try to figure out what that is.

It's not purely idiosyncratic.

Exactly.

There's a beauty in all these colors.

Oh my God, there They're so varied and vivid and gorgeous.

It is rich.

And, and it, that's—

Robert Florczak would like it.

'Cause he would.

Yeah. He likes colors.

He does.

Yes.

Yes. Well, he, he's another person, and I know I've said this so much on the show, but I didn't like art.

Oh, I thought you were gonna say you didn't like Robert. No.

I think the amount of times we've discussed him on this show, Robert is— he's in studio. That's why we're looking over at him.

Right. Go ahead.

But I know I've said this on Dennis and Julie, but it's really important. I didn't like art for so much of my life. Again, my mom would take me to museums and I would like sit in the middle of the thing and go, oh God, get me the hell out of here. But I really admire Robert. Robert adores art. And I had him on my—

Excellent.

You can actually watch this. You can watch my transformation. On video if you're interested in seeing it. Go and look up the episode of Timeless called The Art of Art. And I see your transformation.

I love that.

Hour and a half. Yeah, they will. And I sat there, I had him on my show, this was like a year and a half ago, and I thought, okay, there's a reason people like this. I don't really like art, but I'm gonna have this guy on. And I said, what are 5 paintings that everyone should know? And he's sitting there with me And I'm asking it, I'm going, well, what's so great about— he's talking about shading and color. Well, what's so great? And by the end of the episode, you see me opening up to it because of what— because I allowed my— I, I opened the door a little bit of possibility for joy.

Boy, have we hit a big topic.

Yeah, we really have.

No, this— the joie de vivre, enthusiasm, passion, enjoyment— these are so huge. So I realized midway in my career, but it took midway, because I always wondered, gee, obviously I have a big audience or they wouldn't rehire me. I mean, it's very simple in my profession. You either have an audience or you lose your job. Okay, end of issue. It's not that they like me or don't like me. And I realized A big part of it— there are many aspects, and I'm aware of that— but one big part of it is my enthusiasm is contagious.

It is.

All enthusiasm is contagious. So I realized I could basically talk about anything I care about, and even if the listener doesn't give a damn about it, I will still hold their interest. And that's true. So what I'll never forget, I tested because we talked about this, about testing ourselves.

Yes.

This will crack you up. I gambled once. I did an hour of radio on a topic not only am I not interested in, it actively bores me. When I pass a women's shoe store, my eyes glaze over. I'm not even aware, in effect, that I've passed it. It had— I have I have zero interest in women's shoes. Zero. And yet I decided— a woman wrote a book on women and women's shoes, and I said, I gotta figure out why so many women are crazy about shoes. I did an hour on women's shoes. I don't think I lost one.

You did an hour on women's shoes? An hour.

Yes.

I'll need to listen to that hour.

We have to find it somewhere. I agree with you. But I gambled And I was right because if I'm getting interested, they'll get interested. How many teachers— do you know that the best teacher I have in graduate school was in an area that I— it was not my area, economics. I just, I didn't, I have an interest in it because it's so important, but I don't gravitate to economics. I don't gravitate to stock market and so on.

Same.

That was the best class I took. I remember the guy's name, Charles Isawi. He was a Lebanese guy, and people could look up his name, Charles Isawi. The fact is, he's one of the only names I remember from graduate school because he was relentlessly interesting. So I didn't cut his class, I didn't skip the class, and that's a perfect example. Are you ready to lose weight but not sure where to start? Let me tell you about PhD Weight Loss and Nutrition. First, Dr. Ashley Lucas has her PhD in chronic disease and sports nutrition. So the program is science-based. The PhD program starts with nutrition, and it's much more. They know that 90% of permanent change— and again, permanent change is the key— comes from the mind, and they work on eliminating the reasons people gained the weight in the first place. There are no shortcuts, no pills, no injections, just solid science-based nutrition and behavior change. If you're ready to lose weight for the last time, call 864-644-1900, 864-644-1900, to get started, or go online at myphdweightloss.com and just make an appointment for your one-on-one consultation. Then you decide whether to go forward. Call today That's 864-644-1900. Do you— oh, I'll give you this. This is really gonna crack you up. My— the first way I made money after shoveling snow, that was the first way, was shoveling snow. This— yes, the second way was— oh, I was— oh, the— so this was the third. Second way was a waiter at a summer camp. Third way I taught Hebrew school. So this is where parents would send their kids to study Judaism, Jewish history, etc. And obviously that's a field I know a lot about. So, you know, I wasn't Dennis Prager. I was just a guy who knew it and they hired me. I said to these kids, not one of whom wanted to be there, They were only there because their parents basically forced them. They wanted to be playing sports or going to a party or talking to a friend on a phone. And I said to them the first day, it is my job to keep you interested. Mm-hmm. So here's the deal. You show up for the first 2 sessions and After that, you do not have to show up.

Wow.

If you pass the test, I will give you an A. I will not take attendance. I have to earn your desire to attend the class. They all attended the class.

Oh my God, this is everything. God, have we hit a gold mine with this, with this topic. When I was in high school, and this is painful for me to say because I, I'm so grateful to so many of my teachers. And I just want to say that I hate the— I hate people who like complain relentlessly about their parents or their teachers. It's like, come on, people are trying their best. So I say this with total respect to many of my teachers, but especially in English class, my God, did they ruin those books. I'm sorry.

What a good point.

Oh my God, I'm so sorry to say this.

Why do kids leave high school not— or college not loving literature?

And that is thing that is such a shame, and I feel like I'm a broken record with this, but there's a reason I come to the show and I talk about Jane Eyre. I know Sean is so shocked I'm bringing up that book, or The Scarlet Letter, or Great Expectations, or all these great books that I've read. It's because I didn't— because my high school English classes, again, sorry to my teachers, but it's true, were so rigid and they were so like, what's the symbolism of the river? And what is the social construct that Charlotte Brontë is trying to expose. Like, they, they analyze those books to death and they ruined it. And then I in turn convinced myself that there was something that I just wasn't getting. I'm not an English student, or I'm not a reader. And I just kind of like, you know, kicked that out of my consciousness. Like, okay, well, books are just not for me. Thank God I kept the seed of possibility in me, because then when I graduated from college that summer after, Literally, I think it was God at play. I really do. Something told me to reread The Scarlet Letter, which is one of the books I read in high school. And I loved it because I wasn't writing an essay on it, because I wasn't going to class and hearing about some goddamn river that, I'm sorry, means absolutely nothing in the book. And I found joy in it. And I wish teachers understood this. It's such an important point that you're making. More important than similes and metaphors and social constructs and the author and the year it was written and the time it was written and the whatever is planting that seed of joy in the students for the book. That is the bar none the most important thing. And then by the way, once they have that seed of joy, they'll love the book, they'll take the true meaning of the book, and then they'll have the interest in the metaphors or the similes.

It does make you ask the question, how many teachers love self-teaching. That's our— that's the theme of this podcast.

Yes, it's true.

I really— I don't know the answer, but I, I gotta believe it's, it's not a large number, because if it were a large number, they would enthuse the students into pursuing that subject.

It's true.

Maybe that's why they have drag queen story hours now, because they're so bored with teaching their kids the alphabet or, or, you know, how to conjugate a verb. Although I don't even know I don't think that they teach how to conjugate verbs. I don't think the word conjugate is actually known.

Yes, it's true. But on this subject of this greater theme of finding joy, I'll tell you another example. And this is a very Dennis Prager way of living. I was stuck in traffic the other day in LA, of course. By the way, you said on this show, you're like, LA doesn't have any more traffic than any other city.

No, they just listed the 10 cities with the worst traffic. L.A. was not even on the list. And I know this because I'm in— I'm all over the country all the time.

New York is so much worse.

Oh, Chicago, New York, Miami. What? They're all bad. I don't know who's worse. So it's so ridiculous to say L.A. and I'm not a defender of L.A. There's so many miserable things about California and L.A., but, but I am a truth lover. There is no difference between LA traffic and any major city in this country. In Nashville, I wasn't even moving. And that's not a— that's not a large city compared to New York or LA. Anyway, go ahead.

No, it's— I like this point because it's sort of like we tell ourselves these myths and then we come to believe them.

Exactly.

Anyway, I was sitting in traffic the other day, just, just not moving on the 405. And of course I'm thinking, oh, this sucks. And I'm, oh, we're not moving and I'm gonna be late. And this, I could be reading, I could be do, I could be working out. You know, my mind just starts going there. And I paused and I went, Julie, find, find, this is my little project with myself. Find the joy in this. And then honestly, I know it sounds really contrived, I started to really enjoy being in the car. I just, I flipped the whole situation and I thought, what did you enjoy? I thought, I have time.

Did you listen to a book?

I mean, yeah, I'll tell you two things I did. First of all, I paused and I looked up. I went, what a beautiful sky. I know I sound— I know it sounds really corny, but it's true. What a beautiful sky. What beautiful mountains right there. I'm lucky to be able to see this. And then I put on a podcast, and then I started listening to music, and I just started enjoying the time I had in the car. How much of our lives do we spend like complaining, complaining and, and taking a situation which maybe won't bring you a staggering amount of joy. It's not like I sat there and like, you know, discovered like untapped sources of great fulfillment in that car. But how much of our lives do we spend complaining to ourselves or being mired in this kind of like disappointment when we could just make it neutral or even positive? Like sitting in traffic.

Well, I, I couldn't agree with you more on the sitting in traffic. You know, oh well, you know, these poor people who, you know, they can't afford a house near their work, they have to travel an hour to get back home. And I'm thinking, so why is that a curse? I don't understand the You know, because I often will talk to you from the road.

Yeah.

And I rent a car everywhere I go. So I get immense amount done on the phone. I have a cousin I deeply adore. I call him and I— there's just a whole bunch of calls that I make. Then there are books that I listen to. Then there's music. And then there's just silence. I actually like silence because I love to think. Not everybody does, so that's fine, but I do. But the thought that, woe unto me, I have to travel an hour to work. What is the— what is this notion? We say that's a first world problem.

Yes.

Oh, you're in an air-conditioned car, you poor thing. Oh, and you can listen to your favorite music or your favorite talk show or your favorite whatever. Oh boy, what a rough life.

Boy, we— it's so true. We would all benefit so much from some perspective. I often think about whenever something is disappointing to me, I think you are not living in communist China. You are not.

I mean, or in poverty, you're, you're in a car with air conditioning. People, that's a lot. People of the world doesn't have that.

No, it's true. People don't consider that because it's so, we're so lucky here in the United States that the, the, the basic brutal realities of the way human beings live are, are so, thank God, removed from us. But it's a real curse in a kind of way because we're given all of this splendor.

Oh, well, that's a big problem.

We—

some guy wrote a very— some comedian, I think it was a comedian, but comedians tell a lot of truths. That's why they're funny.

Yes.

If it's not the good ones, not funny. Yeah, well, even the bad one, the bad one, you've got it. What you say has to resonate with reality or it's not funny. So he made this point, I mean, obviously did it better than I am, I'm just paraphrasing. And he said, you know, cracks me up when somebody on the plane is just totally complaining they didn't have their favorite meal. You know, if it was, let's say, business class or even in coach. Oh, I'm sorry, we're out of this box. You'll have to get this box. And they go, oh my God, you know, they're going crazy.

Yeah.

And he said, well, wait a minute.

Hello?

You're flying at 500 miles per hour.

So true.

In perfectly regulated temperature, comfort. There's a bathroom 20 feet behind you. You will arrive at your destination in 3 hours as opposed to 3 months.

I know.

How about a little perspective?

Oh, God, it is. So even when you're delayed at the airport and I, and I think airports especially now have, have turned so bad. So, so much in life has sort of taken a turn for the worse, but especially air travel, I think. But even if you're massively delayed and I have some horror stories of traveling, like sitting on the floor in the airport for 8 hours waiting for your plane, even in stuff like that, which you think is so bad, I think suffusing it with this healthy perspective, this healthy dose of perspective. Who cares?

In my happiness book on perspective, you can't be happy if you don't. Perspective is if nothing's horrific, life is terrific. That's a good example of perspective.

That is, I think, one of the wisest lines. Really?

Yeah, it's a biggie. That's true. But I— so if we're moving on, I just want to recap here for people the power of enthusiasm. It, it's, it, it's a, it's a sine qua non. It's an indispensable element in having people attracted to a subject gift or to you. Mm-hmm. I, I have lived that. I have realized that. But you are the— I just, I just want to give you— it's very interesting because you, you would not know that I have been asking myself this question for quite a number of years now. Can you have a gift and not be happy and it not give you happiness? Well, so your swimming example It is the first example. So, but it is an interesting question. Do you regard it as unbelievably hard work or both a gift and hard work? Do you regard your swimming ability as a gift or— look, if you start at 5 and all you do is swim and you, and you have the right lie, the body for it, then, so how do you— I don't know if you regard it as a gift.

I don't know that— I sort of regarded it as a curse, to be honest with you, being so good at it. Because being so good at it is what kept me in it. I sort of wished I sucked at it because then it'd be like, well, what's the point in doing this? You hate it and you suck at it. But again, Part of that is on me. Part of why I didn't like it so much is, is on me.

In retrospect.

In retrospect. And again, and I'm gonna give myself the grace, but, but part of it is that I really, and, and there were a part, parts of it, and I won't go on, that were objectively terrible. And I had really mean coaches too, like screaming mean coaches. But it sort of reminds me, you know, Larry Elder was on my show and, and he was talking about his dad. And his dad told him, when there's a situation that you don't like or something didn't work out the way that you wanted it to, the first thing that you should ask yourself is, what could I have done differently to make that better? And even though I was 8 years old, I think there were things I could have done if I had the wisdom that I have now back then. To change that. You know, I told you I was at Jordan Peterson and boy, that guy, he just goes and goes and goes and has all these like fantastic revelations.

You know, I work with him a lot, so I, he, I'm so close to him that I wrote the introduction to the biography of him.

That is really incredible.

Did he write? No, not his autobiography. But somebody wrote a biography of him and I, and I was asked to write the introduction, which I did. Wow. Jordan is working through life in public. One of the most fascinating things I have done is to get a brain SPECT scan. I went to bestselling author Dr. Daniel Amen at Amen Clinics. They're known as among the best brain and mental health companies in the world. Most psychiatrists guess what your problems are. It's not an insult, it's just the truth. They don't get to see your brain like a doctor who treats your leg sees your leg. But Amen Clinics treats a variety of mental health issues and actually looks at the organ it treats, the brain. You can get 10% off an Amen Clinics evaluation. Go to amenclinics.com. Dennisprager.com/dennis. Talking to Dr. Amen about my brain health was extremely informative and thank God, I will say, very reassuring. I see why looking at the brain before treatment is so important to getting the right care and how it supports targeted treatment for conditions like ADD, depression, memory, and more. Visit amenclinics.com/dennis to learn more about their brain-based approach to mental health, or call 844-256-7266, 844-256-7266, and get 10% off by using the code Dennis10. Yes, it's an amazing thing to experience. Such a courageous and brilliant mind doing that is not common.

By the way, I, I endeavor to do that. On my show. And I think we do that here, but that's really what I want to do, just work through life publicly. But anyway, so I was at his talk the other night, and one of the many powerful things that he said was, he said, stories are the most powerful things in life. They make the greatest impact on others. But he said, they— the story that you tell yourself about yourself is, is everything. And I think when I was swimming, I told myself this story constantly of, this is a, you know, you're so good at this and this is why you have to stay in this. And then as a result, I was miserable. I wish I had told myself a different story. Namely, I wish I had told myself, you're good at this. And, you know, don't, don't be so hard on yourself or don't focus on all the things that are bad in it. Find, find something good in it. But, but I think generally this is a, this is a really important point. Like, tell yourself a good story about being in traffic or tell yourself a good story about yourself.

That's what you'd be like.

Like, because the narrative that you're telling yourself in your head about you and your situation is what you're going to follow, no matter what the reality of your situation really is. You're following the narrative, not the reality. So make the narrative good, so then the reality will be better.

So I want to go back to something you said earlier, which is undoubtedly worthy of, of at least a whole podcast. Probably worth a year's worth. But I, again, I wanted you to finish your thought, and we, we continued with what we were saying. But you were talking about the— how important it is to be a model.

Yes.

Do you remember saying that?

Of course.

Okay, so were you thinking primarily in terms of parents, or in general?

No, in general, actually. I wasn't thinking about parents.

Oh, so what were you thinking about? Give me an example.

So in life, whenever I encounter someone, and I mean literally anyone, it can be the cashier at the grocery store, I try to figure out what I can learn from them, like what, what kind of example they're setting. And I think, I think in my life too, I really try Instead of, instead of changing other people, I try to just model something well in the hopes that they'll observe me and then change. Does that make any sense?

Yeah. I'm just not clear as opposed to what, or is it not as opposed to anything?

It's not, it's not as opposed to anything.

Okay. So you, you're saying, I need to repeat this for my sake. You're saying that when you encounter someone, you try to assimilate some characteristic that you like in them into you?

Yes.

So that in effect, what you're saying is everybody's a model.

Everyone is a model.

Including a model in the negative sense, presumably. I don't, I don't want to be like that.

What people do is far more important than what they say.

Yeah, I think it's 50/50.

Really?

Yes. I have grappled with this issue and this will provoke you to think. I know you so well. It's a blessing. So I think it's 50/50. There are many— and I go back now to parents, but it could be a teacher, it could be a clergyman, it doesn't matter. There are many fine people with fine characters who have not been able to transmit the values that made them fine to the next generation.

Oh, well, that's absolutely—

this is the catastrophe in my opinion. There were so— you know, they say that the World War II generation is the greatest generation. Okay, I believe there are a lot of great generations, but it doesn't matter. They were a great generation. They were awful. And I knew this when in my 20s. Wasn't true for my parents, but I knew this in my 20s because I said it to audiences. That they did not transmit any of the great values they had. And that explains the '60s garbage that has infected everything till today and the cesspool that the universities have become. Because the parents did not transmit values. They transmitted love, they transmitted comfort, but they didn't transmit values. They were terrific models, but it didn't do a damn thing. On the other hand, you can't give over values and you live the opposite. That doesn't work either. So I am an advocate of the model and the, the teacher of the, of the values. My example that I have always given is if you're a great— back to, I always use music, it's where my mind goes— you're a great, let's say, pianist. Your child isn't going to be a great pianist because you're a model of a great pianist. You have to teach your child how to play piano.

That, that is a very, very good point with parents. You're right, because that that great generation, what you're saying is they modeled, like they did the, this is a bad way to say it, but they did the values.

They, they, they lived them.

They lived that.

Yes.

That's right. They, that's the better word than they did the values. They lived the values. They got married, they got married, they saved money. They were law-abiding.

They, they, they were committed to the country. They went to church every Sunday. I mean, they did so many beautiful things. They married, Most of them stayed faithful. I mean, it's— but they produced the baby boomers, my generation, who produced the garbage that we're seeing now of universities that are evil. I mean, actually teach evil. I mean, it's so bad, it is not possible to overstate how bad the average university has become, how bad the average high school and elementary school have become. It is because The greatest generation transmitted no values.

Well, okay. So on this, this point of, of setting a good example, what I said a few minutes ago is what people do is more important than what they say. You've changed my mind on this, especially with regard to parents. Parents have to verbally pass on and explain why they are living the way they're living and why that's a superior way of living. Totally hear you on that. But here's an example and what I try to do. So I, God, this is going to sound, this is going to sound kind of self-aggrandizing, but whatever, I'm just going with it. I have a lot of friends who say that they wish that they could, or that they hate the direction our country is going in, or they hate what's going on on college campuses and they want to speak up against And instead of telling— and I do encourage them to speak up, but instead of telling them to be courageous and do it, I try to model with my example, getting up every day and publicly taking a stance because I really believe you can tell someone to do something so much.

You need both.

But you need a good—

right. But the model without the telling doesn't work. Work? Well, the parents who were all committed to marriage produced kids who don't give a damn about marriage because they didn't tell them it's important to marry. They told them it's important to get good grades, so the kids got good grades.

You're right. You're right. But I, I think when I learn the most from other people, and this is what I was saying, when I go out in my life, I try to figure out what it is I can learn from someone. It's not It's not what they're telling me. It's what they're actually doing. It's, you know, I learned to have a better attitude about things by watching someone have a good attitude. I learned to—

Right, you're rare.

You don't have to be told, but I mean, everybody has to be told what people do.

You're right. Yeah, for you, because you ask, why are they impressive? Yes. Or, okay, most people don't ask, they just see, and, and they don't know why. It's, you know, there is no area of life that this isn't true. Do, do, uh, does the existence of healthy people produce other healthy people? No, you have to teach people how to be healthy.

You know what, you're, you're absolutely right about that. But I try to take this role model thing. You know, people think it's like self-aggrandizing to say, I want to be a good role model. Everyone should endeavor to be a good role model.

Oh, that's my motto. Every man should endeavor to be a father figure to young men. Yes.

It's not like some anointed ones are the role models.

No.

Everyone can be a role model.

You're all anointed.

Everyone is, to your kids, to your parents, to your friends. That's, that's what I think my point is about the power of a good example.

Oh, it is powerful.

We all have a responsibility to ourselves and to others to be a good role model for the people around us.

Correct. It's not enough, but yes, but it's not you. And by the way, I'm not isolating it to parents. It's not enough for anyone. Older people have to articulate values to younger people or we're dead. I mean, we are dead. They, you know, the people, people, you know, in the arts, you know, people love great art, people love great music. And then a generation, the generation today, they can't— I, I— here, I'm gonna ask you a question. I'm very curious.

Oh, I have one for you.

All right, so I'm just curious, since you were at Harvard as recently as 2 years ago, okay? Yeah, yeah, okay. Okay, so, well, pretty much 3 years. So I'm curious. There's no— there's no way to know the answer, and you may not even want to guess. That's fine. What percentage of Harvard juniors— let's take the third-year students— could spell Beethoven?

I think people could spell it.

You do?

Yeah. Yeah, I think people could spell it. Now, could they tell you anything about Beethoven? No. No.

Correct. I, I, not many, right? I, I even wonder about the spelling, but it, uh, I, I'd love to do, I'd love to do it.

By the way, in my head I'm going B-E-E-T-H-O-V-E-N.

Correct.

Okay, good. I was just quizzing myself. Can I ask you my— I don't want to cut you off, but I just had this.

I'm not being cut off.

Okay, good. I just had this huge thing in, in my mind. To ask you. And it's, it's with regard to this point about examples. The way I'm realizing, the way I live my life is I think about people who I admire. And again, it's not just like you and Robert and my parents. It's literally like I could encounter a random person and I figure there's something about them that I like or I admire. And I try to integrate it.

That's right.

And sometimes I literally do. Right.

Most people don't.

But I try to operate like— I literally picture these people and I picture the way that they are behaving. And then I try to embody— there are times when I think like, act like Dennis right now, act with Dennis's ease, or, you know, act with this person's, you know, X quality. Do you do that? Do you— in other words, do you think in terms of people who you admire and you kind of try to embody them. Because I'm realizing literally right now, that's so much of how I, I live my daily life.

The closest, interestingly, because it's maybe one day we'll talk about our parents or I'll talk about mine. They're not here. But I will say, and it's really, he would be very, very touched to hear this. I would say that not infrequently I would think, how would my father react? And overwhelmingly it concerns courage. My father Did I ever tell you about my father enlisting in World War II?

A little bit.

Well, it's worth— even if I did, it's this. He would have no way of knowing the impact this story made on me because he told it to my brother and me on more than one occasion, or I probably wouldn't have remembered it. So my father When World War II broke out, my father was already— let's see, he was born in 1918, 1941, so 18 from 41 is 23. Is that right? Yes.

History major.

Yeah, 23. So he, uh, he had a wife and a child, and for whatever reason he was not drafted. I think it's because he had a wife and child. I'm not— I don't know what the rules were, but he wasn't drafted. And he— but he enlisted, and he gave the reason. He said, here I am, I'm a Jew in New York, and some non-Jewish kid in Idaho is risking his life fighting Hitler. And this Jew is going to stay home with a wife and kid? And he ended up in the Pacific, ironically, not fighting directly Hitler, fighting Tojo. And by the way, in a very risky thing, he was an officer on a transport, exactly what the kamikazes tried to sink because they would sink hundreds and hundreds of Marines and soldiers who would be on board. And he did it for, let's see, 2.5, 3, 3.5 years, whatever it was. And it made such an impact. It was such an example of, hello, I'm not gonna do the easy thing and stay home. There are obligations in life. That made a big impact on me. And I would often think, wait a minute, so my father enlisted in World War II and I'm not gonna do X or Y or Z? Are you ready to lose your job? Weight but not sure where to start? Let me tell you about PhD Weight Loss and Nutrition. First, Dr. Ashley Lucas has her PhD in chronic disease and sports nutrition, so the program is science-based. The PhD program starts with nutrition, and it's much more. They know that 90% of permanent change— and again, permanent change is the key— comes from the mind, and they work on eliminating the reasons people gained the weight in the first place. There are no shortcuts, no pills, no injections, just solid science-based nutrition and behavior change. If you're ready to lose weight for the last time, call 864-644-1900, 864-644-1900 to get started, or go online at myphdweightloss.com and just make an appointment for your one-on-one consultation. Then you decide whether to go forward. Call today. That's 864-644-1900.

And this is sort of my point about what people do is more important or stays with you longer than what they say. Because if your dad every single morning in the most spectacularly eloquent and powerful way encouraged you to be courageous, you're right, it wouldn't even approximate the kind of effect That's correct. He's going to war made on you.

But he did tell me about it. Had he done it and not explained what he did, it wouldn't have been half as effective.

Very fair.

We're both right.

Yes.

Model and talk.

You're right. You're right. But boy, this is just, again, a realization I've had. And it's so fascinating. I really do like I have these kind of cast of characters and again, literally people who I'm super close with and people who may, who I may barely know. And there are times when I try to, to act like them. And by the way, that doesn't mean that I'm not Julie. Like there are times when I'm not acting as myself. I am myself. But there are other situations, like I'll give you an example and I'll shout out one of the members of our Shabbat dinner crew. Who hosts the Shabbat dinner. He does something that is so gracious and powerful at the start of every dinner. He welcomes everyone and he goes, Julie, we're so happy to have you back. You know, you were gone in New York for 2 weeks and welcome to this guest who's here this week and welcome. And then he goes, and it's so great to be with you and please know how we welcome you with open arms. That is such a gracious thing for a host to do. And I had people over recently and I found, and I told myself, I go, Julie, be right now.

That's really, we have to tell.

Well, he'll listen. Maybe he'll listen to this. But I, but I, I stood there and I go, welcome to, you know, this person or that person. And thank you all so much for being here. I, in other words, like I took that thing in him And I was— Julie was being Michael Gottlieb in that moment. Or at times when I find myself feeling anxious or something, I literally try to act like you. You have this great, like, easy laugh and you're very carefree. And I literally try— I tell myself, be Dennis right now.

You know what this is analogous to? The question of model versus speaking. Is analogous to the— oh God, it's a rare moment. It was such an important analogy, and it's okay.

Bingo.

No, I know, but I don't like bingo. I mean, I'm sure I'll think of it later, but it's— is it this or this? And it's both. And, and Yeah, well, it is. It's actions and talk. It is both. So I want to give you— this is really dark, but I want to give you the ammunition for your argument about the model issue because the negative model Yes.

Oh boy, is that true.

So powerful. Do you know Charles Manson's son killed himself? Do you know that Bernie Madoff's son killed himself? Uh, it's the, the effect on especially sons— it's bad on daughters, but it's horrific on sons if the father is a ne'er-do-well. It is almost— it is overcomeable. I had a guy on my show whose father was a lifelong alcoholic and mean, and the son is a magnificent guy. But when you have a bad model and the public knows he's bad, the shame that a son feels in a father doing bad is probably the worst thing that could happen to a person, except, I don't know, obviously sexually molested. I mean, it is— I don't know what is worse. Maybe that's a tie. Maybe those are tied. That is how bad it is. And so it's interesting question. Is a bad father— I don't mean a father who doesn't do well as a father, I mean a bad human being who is a father, like, like the two you mentioned— is, is that, uh, is that a greater impact than a wonderful man who was a father Is it positive? So I don't know if I'm a wonderful man, but I'm a good man, okay? It's not like I'm gonna sit here and go, I hope I'm good. I, you know, if I haven't attained goodness by now, I'm— it's pretty— I'm pretty self-deluded. I've worked at it very hard. So I know, and many people believe, that I'm a good human being. Not perfect. I don't even aim for perfection. But a good human being, and so, and I am publicly good like Madoff and Manson were publicly bad. So is my publicly good as good for my sons as that publicly bad was bad for their kids? I don't think so.

I don't think so either.

Right.

And that's not to negate—

No, no, yeah, exactly. But it is interesting.

It shows you how, how, oh gosh, Pursuing good as the antidote to bad is one of the most important endeavors in life because the crippling effects of badness are so bad.

Right. Well, that's the interesting thing in the Ten Commandments that really bothers people, including me. I— it's the English is I will visit the sins of the fathers to the sons to the fourth generation. But I will visit the good of parents to the thousandth generation. But it's very, it's a very complex thing. Wait a minute, you're gonna punish kids for their parents' sins? So by the way, visit is a bad translation. I know biblical Hebrew very, very, very, very, very well. And poked is the word, and it really, it means to remember. I will remember. Also, you have to continue. It says to those who hate me. Me. So the kids have to continue the bad ways of the father. It's not like you're punished, but the fact remains you are punished for a bad father. That's the point. Not from God, by your father.

Wow.

By society.

Yes.

Oh, that's Madoff's son. Oh, that's Charlie— and I'm not comparing Madoff to Charlie Manson, right? But that's Charlie Manson's son. I mean, it's— that's bad.

Well, okay, this may seem unrelated, but I don't think it is. When speaking of the stories of your life, when people look back on their lives, do they tend to remember the bad moments more or the good moments more?

The good moments.

Really? I think the bad moments.

When they look back at their own lives.

Yeah.

Oh, I think people have have, thank God, an ability to forget bad stuff. It depends. If their life turned out crappy, they remember the bad stuff. Of course, if it turned out well, they remember the good stuff.

Hmm. Maybe it's also a male-female difference.

Yeah, you remember everything. If there was an animal that symbolized women, it would be the elephant because it's known for its memory.

It's true.

If there was one that symbolized men, it would probably be the monkey or the Why?

Because they're just stupid and silly.

Yeah, exactly right.

That's kind of, that's kind of true. But I think— oh gosh, this is very interesting. Does the bad leave more of a lasting effect than—

well, it also depends on what level. I mean, if you're molested as a child, I don't know, that, that's extremely difficult to overcome. But there are other things that, that are Even, but even that, I mean, there are people who have overcome it. It, it, it, it, so there's no absolute answer to it. Also, what does it even mean, good memories from childhood? The family vacation, does that count as a good memory? Obviously it's a good memory, but does it, does it matter? I never went on a family vacation with my family. I didn't want to. I, I, I marched on my own drum. Of course you didn't want to.

Exactly.

To their great credit.

What kid doesn't want to go on a family vacation? Except for you.

No, even better. This is the best, best though. The best part of that story is my father said to me, I was like 6, he goes, so we're, uh, we're, uh, we're going down to, to visit, uh, Aunt, uh, your Aunt Esther in—

Chippy? What about Aunt Chippy?

No, no, this was Aunt Esther in Louisiana. So you want, you want to come? So what kid wouldn't want a trip from New York to Louisiana?

Yeah.

And I said, no, I'd rather stay with Aunt Chippy in New Jersey. That's exactly what I did. So, so they said, fine, stay. Very different. But I, I don't know how much that adds up to. I think it's wonderful to have warm family memories. I don't think— but I, I don't want to overstate how important it might be.

I think they mean more as time goes on. I think they're like benchmark, you know. Okay, that may be, but here's what I'll say on this which we should continue on another Dennis and Julie about the good, which has more of a lasting effect, obviously both. But if there's something I have realized, it's that bad decisions compound, like evil compounds on itself and goodness compounds on itself or badness. And I'll give you a, you were speaking about finance earlier. It's so funny I'm using a finance analogy 'cause I like you am just so bored to tears with anything pertaining to money. It's like, just beyond dry to me. But it's, it's sort of, it reveals a truth about life. When, when you're in debt, you don't just have to pay back principal on the debt, you have to pay back interest too.

It's a great analogy, isn't it? Yep.

It reveals something about life that, that doing something, you know, like when you do some, something bad or irresponsible, you know, It, you're not just, it's not just that, it adds a little more.

And then when you have to pay, it's one of the great truisms of life. And the same thing with why it's very hard to do bad the first time.

It's, it gets easier, so much easier. It's like trying to think of another, you know, if you're, if you have a problem with weight, you know, it's not just that you have a problem with weight, then you start getting other health issues. And then, you know, like Everything compounds. Everything compounds.

That's right.

And then, you know, alternatively, if you make a good decision, then if, you know, you get your weight under control, then you feel happier, and then maybe you're more confident, and then that compounds.

But that's good. Anyway, there's a Hebrew saying.

Yeah.

You know, aphorisms.

Yeah, we talked about recently.

And it's, again, those who attended religious Jewish schools all know this. It's a fact. It's a very popular Hebrew song. A sin drags along another sin, and a good deed drags along another deed. And the Hebrew 'drags along' is my English translation. It's actually the word used in modern Hebrew for 'tow,' like towing a towing—

Oh, okay.

I thought you meant a good deed. A good deed tows along another good deed. It's so— envision a tow truck. So the tow truck.

Yes.

If it's a good tow truck, it tows good things. If it's a bad tow truck, it tows bad things.

That's right. Well, we hope to be the good thing.

This was huge today.

It was.

Oh, God.

So fun.

But both are critical to teach good values and to exemplify good values. Both are necessary.

And to set a good— it kind of came full circle because we talked about joy, sort of learning joy. That's setting a good example for yourself too.

The joy issue was huge.

Yeah. How do we reach—

how do we reach—

how do they reach— we did this so recently, you can't say it.

Oh no, I can't. But I, I— it's wrong. It's like I open up the show, you close the show.

All right. Julie at julie-hartman.com. I love hearing you. Thank you so much for all of your notes. And you can follow me on Instagram and Twitter @JulieRHartman. Dennis on Instagram @TheDennisPrager. I know you're tuning out right now.

DennisPrager.com or PragerU. But read the Rational Bible.

Yes, read the— totally read the Rational Bible. What's he saying?

He thinks that I should find the joy in bingo. In—

we have, by the way, whenever I say bingo, it's because we have a Dennis and Julie bingo. Can we link that? Did—

how do you know? In an alternate life, Sean would be the comedian at a funeral home. Yeah, he, he would make people in mourning start laughing.

He's another one I try to embody. You're like, oh no, bad news.

It's a lot of embody, Sean said.

And with that, ladies and gentlemen, shalom.

Great to be with you. Bye.

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