The Center of the Universe

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hello everybody, Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman, the Dennis and Julie Podcast. Julie, you do not have to react, but I will say it is truly one of the delight hours of my week. Hour and 15 minutes of my week. She feels the same way, Sean. Do you believe her, Sean? Is she saying it to be sweet, or do you think she really feels it? What do you think? Yeah, you— oh my God, you know what he said, Julie? Said, I'll blow your mind, I too feel that way. Oh, even Sean. Sean Z. Yeah, feels he really— he loves— no, they're, they're oblivious, they're immune, uh, that, you know, they put up with you and me and they're very sweet about it, I have to say. Anyway, everybody, welcome Dennis and Julie It's part 2, really. We're— this is, again, as I said last week, it's real time because I am learning about Julie's phenomenal trip in Italy and Eastern Europe. And I have been— I was away for 2 weeks on a listener cruise through the Arctic. I was— you know, Julie, I have a few thoughts. I didn't talk about my trip, 'cause I'm frankly far—

I know who beat me.

Well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You know, I don't believe in this 50/50 jazz. But yours is more interesting in a deep sense. But I have some interesting insights that I'll share with you. Some big, big, one really, really big one that I don't think I've shared with you. And one not big one, but I just thought you would find of interest as everybody watching or listening. So Sue and I spent 2 weeks in the— on the Arctic Circle, which is not common, and at the beginning of summer. Therefore, there's the key there. We did not see dark for 2 weeks.

Wow.

Yes, it was sunlight for 2 weeks. Which is—

how did you deal with that?

Well, no, okay, so here you go. This is the sort of stuff I love to think about. So people living where we were, Iceland, Greenland, the Orkney Islands, and the Faroe Islands, they have 3 months basically of light. Because even if the sun sets, which I'll— this will really blow your mind. I knew this because I've already been to the Arctic when I was your age. I went on a mail boat up the Norwegian coast, and it was awesome.

Anyway, a mail boat?

Yes, I didn't have the money. Yes, mail. Norwegian postal mail boat, right? I didn't have any money to go on a ship. My life is not what I thought it would be. It's better. But anyway, I didn't care. You know where I slept? I slept in the bar. They closed the bar at about midnight, and I slept on a table. No, no, I, it's— and I didn't— I thought it was— I thought I was the luckiest kid in the world, and I was, and I was, by the way. But anyway, so this is the second time in my life where I have been at a place where the sun sets at around midnight and comes up within 20 to 30 minutes. Sunset is 20 minutes. That's how long the sun is below the horizon. So of course it's light all night. I mean, really light. So I'm thinking, this is— so you asked how did I go crazy. So here is the question I posed to locals. Which is easier, 3 months of light or 3 months of dark? And of course the answer is 3 months of light because it's effortless to make dark. You close your shades or you put on eye shades, which is what I did in both cases. And it was nothing. But the only light you have in their winter is the light, the artificial light of electric bulbs. And that's a little more difficult to deal with. But people adapt. And so now I want to share with you this really big insight, which I had incidentally at the beginning of my travels, but it really, it really intensified and for some reason in Greenland for the following reason. So I'll give the reason and then I'll give the insight. It's odd, the order should be the opposite. Greenland is about as quote unquote out of it as you can get on Earth. No one goes to Greenland. No one thinks about Greenland. Nobody knows what goes on there. The only time Greenland enters people's minds is if you fly the Arctic route from Europe to the west coast of the United States. That's it. Even if you fly from Europe to New York, you don't go over Greenland. You go straight over the North Atlantic. But you, or the Central Atlantic, whatever you want to call it. But when you go the Arctic route, because it's much, much quicker, to go from London to LA that way than to go quote-unquote direct. The Earth is much broader then. So I have flown over Greenland, I don't know, dozens of times. And either I see clouds, so I see no Greenland, or all I see is white. That's it. So I always think, does anybody, is anybody down there? All I see is white.

Can I pause you?

Yeah.

For a moment. I don't even know if you remember this. Forgive me, this is a good interlude. You have not only flown over Greenland yourself, we have flown over it together, and you have pointed it out to me on the plane. Oh, there's you, and there's Greenland out the window. And we were flying from the ARC conference in London back to, um, back to LA, and Dennis Dennis Prager came and got me from my seat and brought me to the window and said, you got to see Greenland. And it was amazing. Here's a, here's a photo of it. I'll send this to Sean.

Well, I thank you for doing that because now I don't make up stories. I always find it a phenomenon to go over Greenland because I'm thinking this is really remote and I wonder what's going on there. And I didn't even know if anybody lived there. For all I knew, nobody lived there. Maybe some weather stations, let's say, or some military outpost. What? Is it true that Iceland should be called Greenland? Yes, so Sean is asking, it's a fairly well-known question. Why is Iceland called Iceland and Greenland Greenland? 'Cause Iceland is green And Greenland is ice. And so I've heard all sorts of answers. The most common answer, I have no idea if it's true, is the guy is a Dane, I think, who made— because the Danes still own Greenland. By the way, Donald Trump wanted to buy Greenland from Denmark, incidentally. It's very funny.

Really?

Yeah. It is the second language kids learn Danish. They also learned— so they learned 3 languages: Greenlandic. I didn't even know that they had a language. Greenland. I didn't even know anyone lived there. Forget that they had a language. Greenlandic, Danish, and English. And so it's utterly remote. As I said, I didn't even know if people lived there. People do live there. Under 100,000 people. Way under 100,000. In the entire— by the way, it's the second largest island on Earth. Only Australia is bigger. That is how big Greenland is. It's gigantic. And remember, Australia is, I think, 3 time zones like the United States. It's a very big place. So Greenland is gigantic. And by the way, you know, to give you an idea how people— you know why I love geography— do you know that Greenland The west coast of Greenland is just a 2-hour flight from the east coast of northern Canada. You are really near Canada when you're in Greenland, but nobody lives in that part of Canada. That's all ice. Anyway, this is my insight. This is big. This, this is something that can affect anyone. And I realized it again in my very early travels, but this really amplified it because of the out-of-it-ness of Greenland. And I'll put it in two different ways. One, wherever you are is the center of the world. And that is not a narcissistic fact. It is a good thing that it is that case. Which leads me to the macro lesson, and that is people should not think that life is more meaningful if they are in a quote-unquote important place. If you live in Washington, D.C., or London, or New York City, you are very likely to think, I am in the, in some ways, the financial center, the cultural center, the political center of the world. Wow. But there is no wow. There might be a wow if you are one of the big players, but that's a tiny percentage of the people living in Washington, New York, or London. The vast majority of people living there have no say in the finances, the government, or the culture of their societies. As it should be, that's the way it is. Very few people do. I grew up in New York City. I remember in New York City people really did believe New York is the center of the world. They really did. Did you ever see, Julie, I'm very curious, if you didn't you'll love this, you'll look it up after we're done. The famous New Yorker magazine cover, a drawn— they're always drawn cartoons, the COVID or illustration. It is of the United States from a New Yorker's— that's the name of the magazine— a New Yorker's perspective. So you have New York, the United States, and then San Francisco or LA. I think it was San Francisco. And, but that's all you have is New York and California, and the, the, the rest of the country is, is like contracted into a tiny thing. The country is basically New York and California for a New York City person. It was an accurate illustration of the— of— I grew up there, I know this. Uh, oh, this is the most important place, we're in the center of the world. And it leads you to think— this is, this is my upshot— it leads you to think that life is more interesting, more meaningful, more important if you are in a place that is quote-unquote really important or the center of the world. But it's not true. And Greenland was a perfect example. Greenland is like the opposite of New York City, right? It's— no one thinks about it. But when you're in Greenland, it's not unimportant. My life didn't become less important walking around the capital, Nuuk, N-U-U-K. With a grand population of 25,000 people. My life was just as important in Nook as it is in LA or Washington or New York or London or Paris. Furthermore, and more to the point, to the people living in Nook, life is just as important. Their lives are just as important. As the life of a New Yorker is to a New Yorker. And here's even more of a punchline. Of course it is, because there's no difference. What preoccupies the average individual living in New York? My health, my family, my friends, my community, my work. Is that fair? What preoccupies people? Those things. But that's what preoccupies people if they're in Nuuk, Greenland or Manhattan. People in Manhattan are not preoccupied with, I don't know, how are the finances of the world being worked out here in Manhattan. A handful of people in the financial sector might be, but 99% of New Yorkers are not. If you're still waiting to buy gold, sitting on the sidelines might cost you precious gains. This is Dennis Prager for AMFED Coin and Bullion. That's my choice for precious metals. The current economic climate could make buying gold a very desirable safe haven commodity. The government's overprinting of money, the fluctuation of interest rates, and high inflation can all impact the value of gold, and it's why you should seriously consider buying now. I've been working with AmFed Coin and Bullion's owner Nick Grovich for years. I'm glad that I jumped into the precious metals market when I did, but it's never too late. Nick's been in the industry for over 42 years, and he's proud of providing transparency and fair pricing to build long-term relationships. Nick and his team have my back, and they will have yours. They recommend what's in my best interest, not theirs, and I never worry about hidden commissions or huge markups. If you're interested in buying or selling, call AmFed Coin and Bullion for a free coin performance review. 800-221-7694. AmericanFederal.com. AmericanFederal.com. This is a really important thing to understand. I'm talking long, but forgive me. It's okay. I gotta get it all out because it's really, really important. So I grew up and I was told New York's the center of the world. I didn't know it was true, not true. I was agnostic. My first lecture outside of New York. I don't mean Connecticut, outside the New York area. I was about 20, about your age, and I was, I was brought to Nashville, Tennessee. For the average New Yorker, Nashville might as well be somewhere between the moon and Venus. It's, it's the hick. It's that New Yorker cartoon. It's You know this phrase flyover country? That's a New York, California view of the rest of America. Nebraska is flyover country. Illinois is flyover country except for Chicago. It's all flyover country. And the South, oh my God, you can't get more hick than the South. Nashville, Tennessee, Dennis. And sure enough, my friends, what was it like there? And I remember thinking, And it was life-changing. And I always tell this whenever I'm in Nashville. I tell people, you changed my life. You don't know this. Because I realized what a quality, high quality of life you could lead in Nashville, Tennessee. This 1970s. Forget now where I think it's better known for that. But I thought, people live in beautiful homes. It's a clean city. There's much less crime than in New York. People are 10 times friendlier. They're at least as cultured. And here's another one for you. People in New York know nothing about non-New York, but people in Nashville know a lot about non-Nashville. So ironically, and I still, I believe this to this day, non-New Yorkers are more worldly than New Yorkers.

Oh, of course.

Oh, you, you felt this as well?

Yes, yes, for the same reasons that, that you said. I mean, the irony is that because they think they're the center of the world, New Yorkers are very worldly.

Yes, exactly.

I would actually mushroom this out to America, which relates to our conversation last episode, which is sort of like the part one of our, of our travel experiences, and this is the part two. But we Americans think of our country collectively as kind of the center of the world because of our power and our influence. And as a result, we are quite unworldly. You were saying in the last episode— That's right.

That's correct.

If you were to approach people in Harvard Yard and say, can you name a country in Eastern Europe? Few could because we think we're so—

Right. Well, that's exactly right. So everything is the opposite of what people think. So it's such a big deal. I think God, or if you want evolution, I don't care what reason you give, because the insight is the issue, not God. But I do believe God is the creator, but doesn't matter. An atheist could believe the same thing. We are made to be, to have a meaningful life anywhere?

Yes, yes. Well, you know, so much I could say, but, you know, my time here, I had mentioned, in Italy has been spent so far on a Catholic spiritual immersion program, and it has been a great blessing to me to learn more about the Catholic Church. And as many of As you listeners know, I am sort of on a journey religiously. And Dennis, you opened the door because discovering your Torah commentary was, you know, life-changing to me. And now I feel like I'm discovering and learning about Christianity because I love Judeo-Christian values. As it stands right now, I would truly call myself a Judeo-Christian. Denominationally, I don't know where I stand, but I'm just learning. The Catholic, you know, you're saying that everything is the opposite of— I forget the way you said it— of what it seems. But it's just so funny to me to consider the way that most liberal Americans think of the Catholic Church and then all that I've learned from it. I mentioned in the last episode my fascination with Pope John Paul II. He's was a Polish man who ended up becoming the Bishop of Rome, the Pope.

Karol Wojtyła.

That's right. I actually, while I'm over here in Europe, I want to make a sojourn to Poland, which is called the Christ of Nations, as I'm sure you know, to see Poland, because that's my new rabbit hole, is Pope John Paul II. But, you know, I was reading so much about what he did as the head of the Vatican, the head of the Catholic Church. He was really instrumental in ending the Cold War. And I was just reading about trip after trip that he went on, his enculturation efforts in the continent of Africa, his trying to stamp out socialism from church authorities in the continent of Latin America, his trips to New York or to America. He established World Youth Day in America alongside Bill Clinton. He went everywhere in the world. I didn't realize how diverse the Catholic Church is. I didn't, I didn't realize.

Well, that's what Catholic means. Catholic with a small c. Diverse, universal.

Oh, really?

That's what Catholic Church means. The universal church, the diverse church.

Wow, I didn't, yeah, I didn't, I didn't learn that.

Okay, okay, yep.

Or maybe I did and I wasn't paying close enough attention to that lecture. But you know, we in America, this is these points actually go so well together. We think that our reality is the world's reality. And we think that because most Americans in our Christian Americans are white, then Christianity is a white religion. We hear about this all the time. Christian nationalism, white nationalism. Speaking of ignorance, oh my gosh. I mean, I should look this up. I think something like 50% of Christians or Catholics are non-white, and the diversity of—

Well, you know, I said last week I think Africa will save Catholicism.

That's right. It really is the most diverse institution in the world. And you know, also, the thing about Christianity which I really love, and it makes it It's so ironic because all of the wokesters think it's one thing, and to your point, it's actually the opposite. They think of Christianity as so, like the epitome of conservatism. Christianity is quite progressive. I mean, Jesus Christ.

In the best sense.

In the best sense.

Not the progressive left-wing sense. Well, it is under this Pope, but that's a separate issue, okay.

That's right. Oh boy, do I have a lot to say about all I've learned about that here. But I mean, some, Jesus Christ came here and was saying, love your neighbor as yourself and turn the other cheek and love your enemy. And he was washing the feet of the poor and elevating. I mean, Mary Magdalene, a woman, was the first person who saw his resurrection. The apostles, I was just in St. Peter's Basilica today and I was in St. Paul's Outside the Walls the other day. The two main people, The two main apostles who Jesus elevated were the most wayward, sinful people. I mean, Peter betrayed Christ three times, and then he was given the keys to the church to become the first pope. Paul was a Christian persecutor and then had his road to Damascus moment. And those are the two individuals who Christianity is elevating. I mean, it's amazing. It is progressive in— I'm so glad you intervened and clarified. It is progressive in the truest, most noble sense. And it's hilarious to me now that I know so much that it has this impression of being the total opposite in America. But because, not to hammer this point too much, but it's so important, because we think our reality is the center of the world, we succumb to these lies and think they're universal when they're really just our profound egotistical ignorance.

Well, I want to hear more about that, but I did want to share this with people. You're— the meaningfulness of your life does not come from the importance of the place in which you live. You have an important life in, in, you know, Western Kentucky or Manhattan, and Manhattan and western Kentucky will have no role or minimal role in whether you have an important life. You know, by the way, I just want to give one— forgive me, I just want to give another proof of the New York point because I grew up there and I knew New York very well. And because of my love of music, I was in Carnegie Hall or Philharmonic Hall virtually every week of, let's say, the 30-week season of music in New York City when I was in high school and college and my 3 years after college. So I really used— and I went to shows a lot. I went to— I even went to ballet for a year. I never got into it, but I tried. I give myself credit.

Good for you. No, seriously, that's great.

Yeah. Yeah. I was proud of myself. I actually subscribed to the New York City Ballet and ended up watching the conductor the whole time. It was very funny. But, uh, the— even that, oh well, you know, we're the center of culture. Yes, to a very large extent within the United States and in the world even. New York and London are the center for classical music, basically, for culture, shows as well, or in plays, not, not just classical music. But if you go to a show in New York, forget a concert, you go to a show And I have. I always ask the people around me, where are you from? I have never met a New Yorker at a show in New York. And this is not a knock on New Yorkers, but it's just that overwhelmingly it is. Well, no, it's really an insight. Yes. Okay, fine. But But the point isn't to knock them. The point is to point out they don't use their culture. The guy from Denver is next to me. The guy from Guatemala is on my right side. They're all coming to New York to see a show, but New Yorkers are not going to see their shows with any particular frequency, or their museums, or their concerts, or their operas. So even that, oh, we're the most cultured, yeah, but are you that cultured? And the, and the odds are not. So it, again, Nook, Greenland is what brought it home to me. These people do not walk around on a daily basis thinking, who am I in, in my living in an insignificant place? It doesn't occur to them. Their lives are just as significant as anybody else's, because what preoccupies people is not how important is my city, it's how quality-filled is my life.

Well, this is one of the things that I love about the Catholic Church, because, you know, on this spiritual immersion trip, we've been talking so much about the dignity of the human person. And how central that is to Judeo-Christianity, which is again what I'm calling.

I love that. Judeo-Christianity.

No, I love it because I think that Christians tend to forget the Judeo part, and the Judeo part is really fundamental and important.

I have a quote for you. Are you ready?

Okay.

All right. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

That's fine.

But it is totally to your point. I just read it. On a Catholic website, because I, you know, I, you know, I care about everything here. So listen to this. This is— I don't, I don't care for this Pope, but it was his—

to his credit, you're not alone in that.

Oh God, I know that. I know too many Catholics. I know that. I mean, too many Catholics who feel that way. Pope Francis put it this way. In his apostolic exhortation from 2013, Evangelii Gaudium, we hold the Jewish people in special regard because their covenant with God has never been revoked, for, quote, the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable, Romans 11:29. The Church, which shares with Jews an important part of the sacred scriptures, looks upon the people of the covenant— that's the Jews— and their faith as one of the sacred roots of her own Christian identity. Compare further Romans 11:16-18. As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion. Are you ready to lose weight but not sure where to start? So I'd like to tell you why I chose PhD Weight Loss and Nutrition first. Dr. Ashley Lucas has her PhD in chronic disease and sports nutrition. The program is science-based. The PhD program starts with nutrition and is much more. They know 90% of permanent change comes from the mind, and they work on eliminating reasons you gained weight in the first place. There are no shortcuts, no pills, no injections, just solid science. Science-based nutrition and behavior change. If you're ready to lose weight for, I think, the last time, call 864-644-1900, 864-644-1900, to get started, or online at myphdweightloss.com, myphdweightloss.com. Just make the appointment for your one-on-one consultation. Call today, 864-644-1900. It's big.

I mean, that's very, that's very true.

But, but you're right that the Judeo has often been lost in Catholic history, and less so, uh, but also in Protestant history.

Why do you say less so?

Because, because the The reason that I think Protestants were more aware— well, you see, it's such a Julie question to ask, why do you think that? It so cracks me up. It's a very— yes, I know you do, and you will get an answer. In other words, I don't throw out lines. I have a few answers for you. First, there was a tendency in the Catholic Church to believe that it had superseded the original Israel and was the true Israel. That was never thought in Protestant Christianity. Protestants never said we're superseding the Jews. The Jews were chosen, and the founders of America thought we're the second chosen, but not superseding the first chosen. There was, for much of Christian, of Catholic history, that sense that we are the true Israel. No longer is Israel the true Israel. It's very tragic for the Jews. I think it's very tragic for, for truth and even for Christianity. So that's, that's one reason. Second is that Protestantism is sola scriptura, only scripture, which is, by the way, it's the only religion that is, interestingly enough. Judaism is not only scripture. Catholicism is not only scripture. Islam is not only scripture. It's a very interesting thing.

That's very true.

But I have to say, A, I'm a big fan of sola scriptura, even though it's not my religion's basic belief, because there's post-scriptura Judaism and there's post-scriptura Catholicism, but there's no post-scriptura Protestantism. These are all such interesting subjects. I am very, very aware of the achievement of Protestant Christianity in the Western world. It produced the United States of America, the freest country ever invented. It largely produced Britain, the country that abolished slavery. And then followed by places like the United States. And the founders of the United States were all Protestants, and, or at least they were of a Protestant background. Some were believing Protestants, some like Franklin and Jefferson less so, but they were all what you call yourselves. They were Judeo-Christian. Christians. That's why they— John Adams knew Hebrew. He— the— they were adamant about the Judeo basis. The Liberty Bell has a verse from the Torah. I mean, it's just the examples are—

Deuteronomy is the most quoted book of the Bible among the founders, you taught me.

Most quoted book, not even in the Bible. The most quoted book, period. More so, more so than the Greeks, the Romans, or the Enlightenment. They quoted Deuteronomy more than any secular or religious book. That's right.

Well, I have to say, and again, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm really exploring, and the thing that I feel is so amazing about my position is that I, I am a Judeo-Christian, but I don't feel like I'm obligated to carry a flag for anybody, if that makes any sense. Like, I'm just sort of—

totally makes sense. Yes.

I wasn't born, for instance, ethnically Jewish. I wasn't born into a very Christian household. Like, I sort of feel just a unique position of freedom that I don't take for granted, but to really learn a lot and discern. And I will say that, that my experience so far here in Rome, being immersed in Catholicism, First of all, at least the Catholics who I'm with, they, they very much hold that the covenant that God made with the Jews still stands because God cannot break covenants.

Has it come up? Has that come up?

It's so funny you ask this. Actually, literally before I was filming, I was talking about this with them. So it has definitely come up. Oh, yes. It's been, it's been a huge part of the conversation. And so, again, at least the Catholics who I'm with, who are very deeply Catholic, incredible people. They, they very much maintain, of course, that the covenant that God made with the Jews still stands, and that Christ is the fulfillment of the covenant, but also establishing a new covenant through the fulfillment, but that the one with the Jews still stands. That's the first thing. The second thing is, again, from my experience so far, and I am an explorer, I would go on all kinds of spiritual retreats. Well, I shouldn't say all kinds. I would go on all kinds of Judeo-Christian spiritual retreats to learn. But, you know, the liturgy every day, the Catholic Mass readings, there's always a passage from the Old Testament, always a psalm, I believe. If I'm getting this wrong, forgive me. I'm still in my learning stages. But there is always an Old Testament reading. Always a psalm, and then of course a New Testament reading. But in other words, from what I have seen, the Old Testament is very much rooted in the celebration of the Mass. It's not just the Gospel or the New Testament.

So go ahead, go ahead. No, no, no, go ahead.

Well, you were talking about earlier, which is such a great point, that we as Americans especially tend to I think culturally think is wrong or culturally reject. And it's that no matter where you are, you can have a meaningful life and you do have a meaningful existence. And I just love that about what I've learned about the Catholic Church, how it really is the world's church. It's an institution that is oriented for everyone in the world. I was talking about the traveling of Pope John Paul II, even the various diocese I've been so impressed I mean, everywhere in the world, there are Catholic churches and Catholic priests. And on this spiritual immersion trip that I was on, we had a priest whose original diocese is Bombay, India. And then he now lives in Latvia doing missionary work. I can't tell you how many diverse priests I've met here in Rome. The other day, I just met a Vietnamese priest. It is so unbelievably diverse. And they talk so much about the dignity of the human person. We are all created in God's image and likeness. I have gotten no sense, in fact, the dead opposite sense of some kind of white nationalist religion. That is so not true. I mean, everywhere in St. Peter's, there are these images of the world. In fact, just as you were speaking, I was pulling up a photo, but I was listening. I can do two at once. I pulled up this photo that I took the other day in St. Peter's of a sculpture and I'll send it to Sean so he can edit it in, but it shows that woman is representing divine justice, and you see she has her foot on a globe, and the idea is that God judges people everywhere and according to their circumstances, but just everywhere you really do get this sense of the diversity of the church and that every single person's life, no matter where they are, is meaningful. And I'll just say, I know you said you were speaking too long earlier. Now I feel like I'm the one who's speaking too long. This is such a beautiful thing about religion, and especially Christianity. It's, to use your great line about the Torah, it's ethic-centered, not ethnic-centered. That's the great thing about the Torah. That's the great thing about the New Testament. And that's the great thing about the United States of America. E pluribus unum, out of many, one. It's not based on where you're born or your ethnic background. It's based on your coming together in values. That is truly the most magnanimous progressive in its greatest sense worldview and concept that anybody could ever come up with that does honor the lives and the dignity of all people, no matter where they are or who they are. I hope that made sense, but I'm just saying your point—

You know, you probably didn't notice, all I did is smile the whole time you spoke.

I didn't notice, but I'm glad to know it.

It's not fully describable how much it means to me. How, how you are, what you are. It's really powerful to hear you speak. I want to tell you, and you say, and I, I want you to, I hope you say that the rest of your life, you're Judeo-Christian, wherever you fall denominationally, if anywhere. But here's another thing to say, and I remember when I came up with this So I was in my, again, my 20s. I was alone in Israel. I speak Hebrew rather well. So obviously speak to Israelis easily. And I was brought to, I don't know why, but some friend brought me to army headquarters in Tel Aviv. So I started flirting with the—

That's not where I thought you were going with the sentence.

No, no, no. The punchline, I'm just noting the context. She was a cute Army girl and I started, as the British would say, chatting her up. But I don't chat, I don't know how to chat up with movie talk or I don't know, something else. I only know how to talk what I care about. Anyway, I don't know how it came up but We were talking about things and she asked me about, you know, why I was there and what do I do. And obviously I mentioned my, uh, at the time I was very, very involved professionally, not just personally, in Judaism. I was the head of a Jewish institute in California. And, uh, she, so she looks at me and she, she goes, Ata dati? Are you religious? And I said to her, and I won't say it in Hebrew obviously, but I said to her in Hebrew, I don't know if I'm religious, but I do know I'm not secular. And she had never heard that in her life, obviously, because you're either one or the other. And she had never heard a person say, I don't know about religious, but I certainly know I'm not secular. And I loved that line. I was so— I've used it so often since. That's what I really know. And that is what you really know. You don't know, are you Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, all of them?

So well said.

You know you're not secular.

I mean, it's just— it's a— yes, yes, that's what I've been saying this whole trip. I— God, the secular world, people—

hold on, Sean has a question from the group. Yeah, right. Is there a slight against Muslims in using the phrase Judeo-Christian? So is there a slight against Muslims in using Judeo-Christian? Of course not, because there's no such thing as Islamo-Christian or Judeo or Islamo-Judaic, because Judaism and Christianity are the only religions on earth that share a Bible. We don't share a Bible with Muslims, so you can't— it's dishonest to say Islamo-Christian. There's no such thing, or Islamo-Judeo. So it's not a slight, it's just a fact.

It's a fact. I mean, and just—

So what were you going to say? Because I wanted you to bounce off the— you're not secular.

Yeah, I will. But to your point, Dennis, you know, the New Testament or Christianity is truly Judeo-Christian. I mean, they do it— the basis of—

Well, no Judeo, no Christian.

Right, right, right. But Islam interestingly views Jesus as a prophet, views Moses as a prophet, but the Quran, it is not viewed as like the third book, if you will. It is viewed as the replacement of the Old Testament.

Yes, because Christians and Jews screwed up their own revelation. That's the Islamic view.

And they believe Christians.

I said Christians and Jews.

I love and use all kinds of MyPillow products, and right now they're having a big sale, a $25 extravaganza. When MyPillow started, it was just a one-pillow company, but now MyPillow has hundreds of products, some of which you may not even know about. To get the word out, we want to invite you, our listeners, to check out their $25 extravaganza. 2-pack multi-use MyPillows, just $25. MyPillow sandals, $25. Their 6-pack towel sets for $25. Brand new 4-pack dish towels for, you guessed it, just $25. And for the first time ever, the premium MyPillows with all new Giza fabric, just $25. Orders over $75 will receive free shipping. And this offer won't last long. So go to mypillow.com and use the promo code Hartman. Or call 1-800-566-6745 today and use the promo code Hartman. Oh, I see. Okay. So, so yes, that's just to substantiate your point. But gosh, I have so much to say about this, this point about not being secular. I feel so lucky because I know the secular world so well. And now in my life, I come into the religious world. And I'm so grateful that I have this job where I'm in front of the camera because I think I'm really in a unique position as someone who was formerly steeped in the secular world and now very steeped in the religious world to highlight the differences. And the secular world compared— and there are many problems with, quote, the religious world, which I know is not a monolith. But my gosh, a lot of people do religion wrong. And Dennis, you say that. I mean, you say that in the first few pages of your Torah commentary, that religion can be a false god. So I'm not saying that the religious world is a monolith and that it's a great monolith. It's obviously varied. But the secular world is so confused and diminished compared to the religious world. I mean, just the clarity with which people like you and Ashley and John Nerona, the leaders of this Catholic Spiritual Immersion Program. The clarity with which you all speak is so indicative to me that you have come upon the truth. You know, in the secular world, people speak in such a convoluted, confused way. It's— I mean, the secular world is also in many ways just so meaningless. It's to be here in Rome and among Catholics. I mean, it's so funny. We walk into these various churches and every church has a different saint that's buried there or a different relic to a different martyr. And I would get very— at the beginning of the trip, I was really anxious because I didn't know who a lot of these people were. And I went up to the leader and I said, oh my gosh, who is this? Saint and, oh God, I can't believe I don't know this. And she said to me, it's a new friend to discover. You know, when you go into a new church and there's a new saint buried here, it's like getting to know a new friend. And I thought, that's so cool. I mean, in the Catholic Church, they have these feast days, you know, the feast day of St. Benedict or the feast day of St. Thomas. And you know what I realized it is? It's just every single day, and this And this is true of the Torah too, you know, with the reading every week. And I mean, you're just learning about great people doing great things. And it is like getting to know new friends. It's like a constant study of greatness in the world. How cool is that? What, what, where does that exist in the secular world? What is the counterpart to that in the secular world?

Well, you know, I have said all of my life, my life's work, if I had to summarize it in a sentence, is to show the consequences of secularism.

Yes, and you've done it. And that's my life's work now, is to show that. And you know what's so interesting, Dennis? Something that I have talked about on this show, and I'm learning even more here in Rome, and it's going to be a fundamental part of my commentary, is that the secular and especially the woke world, they're like twisted shams of the religious world, like its principles. For instance, there is a principle of social justice in the Catholic Church, if you can believe it. It's called authentic social justice. That is a term that was coined in the 1800s among Catholics in the wake of the Industrial Revolution, where a lot of people were going to work in factories and terrible conditions and all of those things. And there was this concept that was created called social justice of how do you deliver justice to, you know, how do you preserve the dignity of the human person alongside all of this technological and professional advancement? That is such a different principle in the Catholic Church than the social justice of today. Or even, gosh, I mean, praying. I've learned so much about praying. Before you pray a rosary, you set an intention and you hope that that intention will manifest. In the secular world, when people like do their crystal and their incense things, they use that language of intentions and manifesting, but they don't have any religious moral root to tie it to. I'm telling you, like, the secular world is like a faded image, a faded copy of the religious original. It's fascinating.

Sean has a question. There's no Christianity without Judaism, but there is Judaism without Christianity, right? So he wants— the Jews want to be a part of Christianity. It's an excellent, excellent question. So He has those? He did, believe it or not, yes. So he's going back to the Judeo-Christian issue. So he said, so okay, I get it. And tell me if I'm paraphrasing you correctly, Sean. I get it, we get it, that without Judaism there's no Christianity. But obviously there's Judaism without Christianity, and there was for let's see, so 1,200 years.

Wait, you mean there's no Christianity without Judaism?

Yes.

There is Judaism without Christianity.

Yes. If I didn't say it correctly, that's exactly what it is. So he said, so what's in it for the Jews to say Judeo-Christian? That's, it's a great question and I have a great answer. Amazing question. I use it all the time. First of all, because I want the world to understand that combination is what made the West. Not Christianity without Judaism, and not Judaism without Christianity. Judaism— it is Christianity that made the Ten Commandments known to the world. It was Christians that made the Torah known to the world, not Jews. Jews made it known to a very tiny— I mean, because the Jews are tiny. I mean, for no other reason. The two have been so powerful. Christianity that negates its Jewish origins. I mean, you mentioned love your neighbor as yourself. That comes from the Torah. Jesus didn't make that up. Love your enemy, I acknowledge, is original to Jesus. That is correct. The Torah says you can't hate your enemy in your heart, and so Jesus reformulated it. Love your— it's fine. It's a non-issue to me. There, obviously, I venerate the fact that Christianity has brought the Ten Commandments and the Torah to the world, and the Psalms and the prophets and so on. And Jews have to recognize that. They, the Christians, basically have put us on the map. And thank God for them. And thank God for the Jews, because it gave the world Christianity. So the There are Christians who hate the term Judeo-Christian. They're fools. And there were Jews who hate it, and they're fools. Because it's a fact. They're not the same theology. Nobody talks about Judeo-Christian theology. People talk about Judeo-Christian values. But values make the world tick. And that is the people who obliterated slavery in Britain These were very Old Testament-oriented Christians, but they were Christians. That combination is the most powerful combination, is Judeo-Christian. That means you don't give up your Christianity to be Jewish, you don't give up your Judaism to be Christian, but the combination is unique in the history of the world. There are Christians who reject it, and some of them reject it because I think of anti-Jewish sentiment. They just don't want to be saddled with it. That's it. And some of the Jews resent it because, hey, what do we— you know, we don't believe in Christianity. So what? Christianity believes in us, and they've done an immense good for us. And by the way, Christians have done immense bad too. I agree. Acknowledge that. Everybody's a mixed bag. I understand that.

So I, I have a question for you that I think will enrich our conversation, and it's amazing because it's so fundamental, and I would bet that many Jews don't understand this and many Christians don't understand this. What was the original covenant that God made with the Jews? And this is about— this is what I was talking with the Catholics about today, but I want to hear your answer to it. What was the original covenant that God made with the Jews, and how is that different from the new/fulfillment of the covenant that came with Christ?

Well, it's not an easy question to answer because the covenant, first of all, it starts obviously with Abraham, and God refers to it, "I made this covenant with your forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." And Jacob's name is changed to Israel, and that's what the name of the people is. And the covenant essentially, this is the irony, as I understand it at any rate, there are many aspects to the concept of the covenant, but the basic one, which is not often enough cited, is when God makes his covenant with Abraham, he says, And I will say it in Hebrew because I want people to understand I am not mistranslating. I'm giving you the Hebrew. "V'varchubecha kol mishpakhot adamah." That be blessed through you all the families of the earth. It was a covenant with the Jews for humanity. This is critical and often lost in the parochialism of religion, whether Christian or Jewish. People tend to be parochial.

But I'm so glad we're talking about this. It is so lost.

Oh, totally. It drives me crazy, which is why people should read my Torah commentary, because I show the universal nature of it. It's so important. Through you, all the families of the earth will be blessed. That's exactly right. So anyway, the covenant— so The covenant is, you are my people and I am your God. That's another aspect of the covenant.

Let me cut in and ask a clarifying question. So the world is blessed through the Jews, but it was never obligated of the Jews to proselytize?

That is correct. You don't— well, this is a big part of why I venerate the Jewish ideal. You have to be good which I know this is, this is a fundamental difference, at least among many Christians or most Christians, with Judaism. You are saved— it's not language Jews tend to use, but I'll use it, it's fine— you are saved by how you have behaved on Earth, not by becoming a Jew. A bad Jew goes to hell, and a good Christian goes to heaven. That's the— or a good pagan goes to heaven. The Jewish view is that with regard to the whole world except Jews— Jews, it's a stricter issue— that it is only their behavior, not their belief or absence of belief, that determines whether they have a reward after death or punishment after death. How did you act? If you believed in Zeus and you were kind and just and good, you go to heaven. And if you—

yeah, no, I'm sorry, Dennis.

No, no, that's, that's fine.

Well, I, I just wanted to— this is, this is so, so important and, and helpful for me, and I imagine everyone listening. Because even though it's the most fundamental, excuse me, part of both Judaism and Christianity, we don't understand it.

So what does it mean, we don't understand what? Who's we?

What the covenant is with the Jews.

Oh, you're talking about the covenant. Oh, I thought you were talking about who was saved. I'm sorry. Oh, you went back.

I mean, what is the covenant with the Jews? Is it particular to the Jews? Is it universal?

It is both. It's both. Judaism is universalism and particularism. And by the way, that's what everybody should be. They should be universalist and particularist. You should— that's why I've had no problem with being American first. I have a big problem with being American only.

So is the belief that Christ came because the Jews did not live up to the covenant? Did the Jews not fulfill the covenant?

Well, no, nobody has fulfilled their covenant. Did Christians fulfill their covenant? I mean, so then if, if that's the reason— now I'll get back to that in a moment— but if that is the reason, then there would have to be another Messiah after Jesus because the Christians so often didn't fulfill the covenant. Are you ready to lose weight but not sure where start. So I'd like to tell you why I chose PhD Weight Loss and Nutrition. First, Dr. Ashley Lucas has her PhD in chronic disease and sports nutrition. The program is science-based. The PhD program starts with nutrition and is much more. They know 90% of permanent change comes from the mind, and they work on eliminating reasons you gained weight in the first place. There are no shortcuts, no pills, no injections, just solid science, science-based nutrition and behavior change. If you're ready to lose weight for, I think, the last time, call 864-644-1900, 864-644-1900 to get started, or online at myphdweightloss.com, myphdweightloss.com. Just make the appointment for your one-on-one consultation. Call today, 864-644-1900. The failure or non-failure of the adherence to a faith will always be a mixed bag. There have been good and faithful Christians and awful Christians, and there have been good and faithful Jews and awful Jews. That is just, that is the human condition. But from a Christian perspective, I think you're right. The, you know, it's sort of not, it's not working out. From Paul's perspective and the gospel's perspective, well, there was much too much emphasis placed on ritual observance. And it was too parochial, especially from Paul's perspective. You know, there was no Jew and Gentile, there's no man and woman, there's no slave and free, it's all one in Christ, right? This is basic Christian teaching. So that is the reason for the annoyance in the New Testament with the Pharisees, because the belief was, oh, these guys are really observant of ritual law, They lost the forest for the trees. I'm sorry, Paul. And I presume Jesus was. I can't imagine that he wasn't. Well, what would he have been? He wasn't a Sadducee. He wasn't an Essene. So, to the best of my knowledge, so that I regard— I regard Christianity as a faithful religious Jew. I regard Christianity as the attempt to universalize Jewish values?

Yeah, I mean, I mean, that's, you know, it's funny, Dennis, because I don't want to represent— I want to be so delicate with when I'm quoting people because I'm, I'm still learning and trying to understand myself. And the thing I would hate to do is say, oh, these people told me this, and then I misrepresent it unintentionally. But my understanding is that Christians— again, Christians are not a monolith— but view Christ as fulfilling, not even so much changing the covenant as fulfilling it by bringing it into the human heart, by universalizing it and taking it out of external ritual and putting it in the, in the human heart. Where the two commandments are now to love God with your, your whole heart and your whole soul, and to love your neighbor as yourself. So it is— and you and I talk very much about how faith alone— and Eric Metaxas talks about this too— how, um, how faith alone isn't enough.

Well, James, faith without works is dead.

Faith, faith without works is dead. You need, you need works in addition to faith. But my— but again, my understanding is that that it is believed that Christ universalized the covenant.

And well, if he didn't, certainly Paul did. Let's put it that way. And I'm not taking sides here, and it doesn't matter to me, but I just want to be honest to the, to the scripture. So, yeah, to the Christian doctrine that it is only through Christ. Okay. So he's asking me, so how as a Jew do I react to the Christian doctrine that It is only through Christ that one gets to God. Obviously, if I believe that, I'd be a Christian. I mean, that goes without saying. It, you know, I think that the—

at this time in my life, I don't believe that. I don't believe that you need Christ in order— maybe that makes me not a Christian, but I don't believe that at this point in my life.

No, right. That's worthy of— it's worthy of it. Well, that's right. So she said she's not at this point a Christian. And, and I'm— yes, yeah, it's worthy of its own, of its own session, but we have— so we talk about everything, literally everything.

Well, can I— I know we're almost done, but can I ask you a final question? Yeah, this is so— this is why I love Dennis and Julie. I just said it so many times. Dennis and Julie. Um, so, so I understand your point that the Jews— I actually wrote it down— that, that, you know, Jews are supposed to be the example of God, obviously, a light unto the nations in Isaiah's phrase, right? They have the revelation of God. But then with regard to others, Jews are not obligated to proselytize. But, but here's my big question. Don't you need proselytizers? I mean, yes, it's a good thing to judge people by their actions. I get it, and that's where I am right now.

I, I, you're quite— that's right, we do. That's right. I mean, Dennis Prager doesn't know what we're doing right now.

Aren't we proselytizing?

If Julie were here, I'd hug her, folks. It's a good thing she's in Rome. So I, I, so here is, here is my answer. Uh, this has been a lonely, a sort of lonely not in the sense that I'm a lonely guy. As you know, I have the richest social world you could imagine of great people in my life, but it's been lonely in a macro sense. So Jews should have spent much of their efforts in life bringing the world to the Torah. That's why I'm writing my commentary. And I have Tora basis for it, but I won't get into that now, or at least to the Ten Commandments. And instead, now by the way, here's the irony. This is, this is, it's really big subject unto itself. According to the greatest Jewish historian of the 20th century, Saul Oberon, who was a professor of history at Columbia, in his massive work on Jewish history, it's like 15 volumes, And I have those volumes. I'll show them to you next time you're at the house. You'll probably end up reading it. At any rate, he estimates, and it's generally regarded as probably true, that a tenth of the Roman Empire at the time of Jesus were Jews. That's a lot of people. One out of every 10 people in the Roman Empire is a Jew. That was not because Jews you know, were having more kids than other people. They were having as many kids as other people, but because Jews proselytized. Now, but remember, you don't— they proselytized because, hey, hello, dear pagan, we think we have something deeper than idols for you, than gods of nature. You might want to give the Sabbath a chance. You'll find it really meaningful. I'm dead serious. It was sort of like that because you don't have to be a Jew to be You can be saved. But if you want a higher quality of life, join us. And a large number, relatively speaking, were joining. Had there never been a Christianity, it's a question I can't answer, only God can, would the Roman Empire have embraced Judaism like it embraced in 325, it embraced Christianity?

I don't think it would. I don't think it would, and that's a conversation for another day.

Yes, that's very possible it wouldn't. But a larger and larger— you're right, because of circumcision and because of the ritual law, and it's probably true. I don't know. But I do know a lot more— if there would have been no Christianity, the only monotheism that they would have had is Judaism. So, but on the larger answer to your Big question. I regard the Jews, I have two phrases for the Jews. The Jews are, what is it? The Jews are a messenger who forgot their message. That is my description of the Jews. And I have another one. The Jews are embodied in the story of Jonah. Do you know the story of Jonah? In the Old Testament. So God tells Jonah, a Jew, go to Nineveh, or Ninveh in Hebrew, and tell them to repent, or I will punish them. And he is angry at Nineveh, it's not a good place, he doesn't want to go, and he flees. He flees God's mission, as if you could flee God, but he did. And he ends up on the boat. The boat almost drowns. The wonderful non-Jews on the boat, and they are all wonderful, realize he's the reason. So he says, throw me into the sea, otherwise— he was a good guy. They were all good guys. But the Jews are Jonah fleeing their divine mission. That's how I view my fellow Jews. And here, my final point on this, this will sort of blow your mind. You may have heard me say this, but if you didn't, it will blow your mind. It may blow listeners' minds because it's so clarifying. The Jews who most have felt a mission to the world have been the Jews who had no connection to Judaism. Marx and Trotsky. And I mean, to a certain extent, Freud, although Freud did have some connection, not with Judaism.

Was Stalin a Jew?

No, Stalin was not. He was a Georgian.

No, no, no, no, Darwin. Darwin.

Oh no, Darwin. No, I know it's tempting to think everybody who was influential was Jewish, but it's not. Darwin was not a Jew. The big three influencers of the modern age, two of them were Jews. Marx, Marx and Freud. Darwin is the third, and he was not a Jew. But that's what— that's the— so as I've said all of my life, the Jews who talk to the world don't live Judaism, and the Jews who live Judaism don't talk to the world. That's— so I'm sort of— I'm not alone, but I'm sort of a lonely voice. I'm a Jew who practices Judaism and talks to the world.

Well, I'll just end your ending on this note by saying that, you know, I used to— when people would talk about Judaism and Christianity and Islam and ethical monotheism and all these things, I would think that it was a very interesting interest to have. This is— I'm coming to realize even more this shouldn't be something that is considered to be an interest. This is life. These are the fundamentals of life. Understanding Christianity and Judaism, understanding all of this is, is as fundamental to our existence as learning the ABCs, which is, I know, I know, is an Anglophone statement, you know, learning your alphabet or learning your whatever. We have to understand this, this stuff. So I don't know. I think sometimes even my friends, and I adore them, they're like, I love your interest in religion. And yes, I have an interest in religion, but I want to shake them and go, religion's the whole damn thing.

It's all right. I'm gonna say it. Forgive me, folks. I love her.

Well, I love you too.

I'm telling you, folks, that was beautiful. Yes, it is. It's the whole damn thing. That's right.

How can they reach us, Dennis? By listening to me. Okay.

One minute. I'm basking in the light of your last statements. Why is it? Is Sean? You really got Sean moving today. This is a big deal. It's the whole damn thing because it's universal and particular, which is worthy of its own discussion.

Totally. and. And I mean, to a certain extent, Freud. Although Freud did have some connection. Not with Jew. No, Stalin was not. He was a Georgian. No, no, no, no, no. Darwin. Darwin. Oh, no. Darwin. No. I know it's tempting to think everybody who was influential was Jewish, but it's not. Darwin was. Darwin was not a Jew. The big three influencers of the modern age, two of them were Jews. Marx. And my gosh, we're gonna have things to talk about till the end of time.

That's the hope. Bye everybody, see you next week.

Here's something most people don't know. When Warren Buffett was just 13 years old, he didn't put his money into a savings account. While other kids were earning next to nothing at local banks, Buffett put $114 into a little-known investment. Today, that $114 would be worth over $15 million. And it wasn't a risky trade. It wasn't even insider knowledge. It was an account that's been around since 1888, and over the last 25 years, it's averaged 29% a year. That's what happens when your money is allowed to compound. Compare that to today's savings accounts, paying less than half a percent while inflation quietly eats away at your buying power. Buffett understood early: banks are great businesses, just not for savers. If you'd like to see what some investors call the 29% account, go now to secretaccount29.com. That's secret account, the numbers, 2-9 dot com. secretaccount29.com.