The Pursuit of Truth

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com. Hello there, Dennis Prager, Julie Hartman, the Dennis and Julie podcast. Did I say the last names? I did. Yeah. So I don't have to say anything else. Hi everybody. Hi Jules.

Hi Dennis.

Do I call you Jules on the Dennis and Julie?

I think you have before.

That's my nickname for you.

I know few people in my life call me that.

Wait, few?

Few.

There were people who called you Jules prior to meeting me?

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Really? That's adorable. Yes.

You know what's interesting?

Who did?

Who did? One of my best guy friends in high school. And one of my best guy friends from college. Interestingly, it's guys who call me that. Actually, my roommate also, she calls me Jules. So I guess it's 3. But isn't that interesting that most of them are guys?

Well, it's only 2 out of 3.

No, 3.

Oh, 3 out of 4.

You? Yeah, 3 out of 4.

3 out of 4. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is interesting. I don't know. I don't have an explanation. Do you have an explanation? But it is interesting. It is unbelievable how I don't— everyone in my life, 99.9% of humans have called me— relatives, friends, enemies— Dennis.

Well, you know what? I, I at one time started calling you Prags. And it did.

Oh, yeah, I had Prags.

But it doesn't quite— it doesn't quite feel right. No, no. And Sometimes I'll call you Denny.

That's just—

but when I'm like in a really silly mood, I'll be like, Denny, you know? But I don't actually call you Dennis.

No, I know. It's— by the way, John, do you call him anything? No. What is it? Yeah, he can't say it because it's a family show. He cannot say his nickname. I'm joking. I'm just sure— I would— I have no doubt. I would totally believe it's an expletive. There's no doubt in my mind it is not clean.

Do men call fellow men by nicknames? I don't, I don't know the answer.

Yeah, just as much as women, I think. Yeah, the, the fun thing is what couples call each other. I've actually— yes, I did a male-female hour on it.

Of course you did.

The names that people come up with to call their beloved spouse.

Give some examples.

Oh, I don't remember, but it was, it was names like the names— I remember this that I thought, wait a minute, that's a name for a dog.

I know, I know. I mean, what do you— what do you and Sue call each other?

You call her sweet. Wait, wait, so no, no, uh, so if I come home, I, I— so I believe I call her— most of the time I call her Sue.

Uh, babes, sweets. I've heard sweets.

Sweets, really?

Yes, it's, it's interesting. I don't think you realize you're doing it.

Babe. Hi, babe. Gorgeous. I call her gorgeous a lot. Hey, gorgeous. And of course, then she'll look around. Who's he talking to? She thinks I'm talking to one of the dogs. It's really— it's a very sad thing in my life.

That's pretty funny.

It is funny.

I fully call you anything but my love.

And I think, hon.

Hun. That's a big one.

I think, as in Attila the Hun, not as in honey.

You know what my parents do, and I wonder if, if other families do this, and they, they call each other affectionate names. Thankfully not anything that's too cringy. You know, some couples have like Honey Bunches or something, or like Sugar, Sugar.

I'm like, it's uncanny how we have the same reaction.

Yeah, it's— well, we should, we should actually talk about that. It's amazing how, uh, we find interest in what many would consider to be the superfluous or even mundane.

Um, that is its own subject.

Yes, it is. But yeah, my parents, they call each other Mom and Dad. So they'll go, Dad— my mom will walk through the house and go, Dad. Yes, Dad.

So that—

it's not her dad, it's mine.

So no, no, I'm well aware. So, okay, just to clarify that anyone was confused. So I'm All right, look, you're— I'm a big fan of your parents, as you well know.

Oh no, they're watching.

I must admit, that is not something I've ever taken to.

I think they do it around—

No. Okay, there's nothing— I want to make something clear. This is not a judgment. This is a Dennis subjective— it's like saying I don't like chocolate or I don't like vanilla. It's not a condemnation of chocolate or vanilla. It's not a condemnation. It's just I had very close friends in Israel. And, you know, I speak Hebrew well. And so we always spoke in Hebrew. And when I would visit them for a Shabbat, I'd stay overnight. They lived on a kibbutz. And the way he would call her Ima. Which is Hebrew for mom or mother.

Oh, okay.

And I just— and it was so natural. And she was the mother of the house, obviously. And that's what it means. Nobody means you're my mother. I'm well aware of that. But it's maybe because I didn't grow up with it. And I certainly never called a wife of mine, and I've had experience in wives.

Uno, dos, tres.

That's it. Okay, though, you know, let's not over— let's not—

hey, I'm better than Eric Metaxas. Eric Metaxas was introducing you at the Socrates thing. Oh, Dennis is here with his eighth wife.

Yes, well, only Eric Metaxas could do that, which cracks me up. Uh, so anyway, yeah, it's not my— it's not my style. I can't imagine calling Sue mom.

Well, because you don't have kids together.

Yeah, but I— so with a wife. I had kids together. I couldn't imagine it. There's nothing wrong. I want to make that clear. I just can't imagine it. What do you— I rather say gorgeous.

What's— well, they again, they do that with each other. I've heard them call each other affectionate names, but I think when they're around us, I notice, you know, Dad, Mom, and I'm like, it's just—

yeah, right.

Interesting.

Okay.

Anyway, what do you— what's your impression of couples? Who do those like really over-the-top, like Honey Bunches, vanilla chocolate swirl.

Yes, right. Well said.

Boo Boo Bear. Okay.

Right. So I have to preface my response with a realization that there was no objective right or wrong here.

You're right. I shouldn't judge.

No, no. I judge, but I recognize within me this is Dennis's— not Dennis Prager even— this is just Dennis's personal preference. Yes, that's it. And I don't— I can't state this— there's a right or wrong. If you punch your spouse, that's wrong. That's not Dennis's subjective take.

Okay.

So, uh, I, I don't get it. I, I see. I'll tell you why. You know, do you know, we could do a, a whole thing on this. You know what turns me on almost more? And I only come to realize this maybe in the last decade. The amazing, the realizations you make about yourself. You figure you live with yourself so long, you really know yourself. And I really do know myself, but still I come up with more realizations. The thing that turns me on the most, I think, in life is real. I go crazy inside of me the moment I detect non-real. Honey smuckle smuckle buckle doesn't strike me as real. Now, that doesn't make me right. I truly acknowledge this. You could have the greatest marriage in the world and have these, these, uh, flowery nicknames, but it doesn't, it doesn't seem real to me. And that everything, everything that I respond to is always smacks of real. I— does that make sense?

Absolutely. I mean, we talk about this, you know, not to always bring up dating, uh, on, on this show, but it's very hard for me to find guys who are real and deep. And those are different things, but they're kind of like twins.

I think they are.

They're first cousins, actually.

That's right.

Um, you can't— I don't think you can be deep without being real. You can be real without being deep.

Okay.

Would you agree?

I haven't thought, I have to think that through.

I know real people who aren't deep.

Okay. So that answers that.

But I don't know deep people who aren't real. So no, that entirely makes sense. You know, I've been thinking so much lately about your line as it often goes with your lines, they make more and more sense to me as time goes on and the more that I live in the real world. And you often say, and it sounds like it's a joke or as you would say, a cute comment, but it's actually, you're being dead serious. You say you have an erotic attraction to the truth.

That's right.

And that is so, that is exactly how I'm living my life now. I wanna get it.

Right.

I wanna get it in its ugliness, I wanna get it in its beauty.

Well, I have an erotic attraction to real.

Right, and the real and truth are synonyms. Cinnamons. Oh God, synonyms. Cinnamons.

Yes, real. I fell in love with Sue within 3 minutes, and it never happened in my life, and I never even thought it— I always thought it was make-believe movies. And I saw— look, there are the obvious reasons, but So what? I've, in the course of my lifetime as a public figure, I've met any number of very attractive women. So that wasn't it alone. And she would be laughing if she heard this because she so doesn't think she's in that realm, which she's deluded. But doesn't matter. What really got me was how real she was.

You can tell. You can tell almost immediately with people.

Oh, that's right. That's right.

I believe in you know, getting to know someone, not judging people too quickly. However, that being said, and this is not said as a self-aggrandizing thing, I actually view it as a gift from God. I can get a read on people in 1 to 3 minutes. Dare I even say I could get a read on people in 30 seconds.

Yes. So do you remember your instant read of me?

Of course I do.

You do? Tell me. I've never heard this.

Oh my, I think I've told you.

And I'm not looking for a compliment. No. I'm very, very curious. Your instant read, not your long-term read. Read?

Well, my instant read of you wasn't you. It was PragerU. Because when I—

Oh, because you saw me videos. Oh, that's true.

And I remember.

Yeah, I—

it is. I can't say I have a good memory, but I can't say my memories are always vivid. This is a vivid memory for me. I was lying in my bed watching on Google late at night, and I Googled, what do conservatives think about police? Up popped— I actually think it wasn't a video on police. I think it was Larry Elder's video about the 5 biggest issues facing the Black community, because this was during Black Lives Matter. And I was so disillusioned by what I was seeing on the left with the rioting and the looting and the crusade against police and the Maoist self-criticism sessions. I'm just trying to set the scene for people. And so I sought out an alternative online, and I had no idea PragerU existed, never heard of it, never heard of Daily Wire, never heard of you, never heard of Ben Shapiro, never heard of Candace Owens, never heard of Jordan Peterson. I had no idea that this world existed. And when I clicked on the PragerU video, again, it's vivid. I remember thinking, these people are telling the truth.

Wow.

It was like, it was a visceral certainty. It was like, I knew, I just knew it immediately because it was so clear. It was so fair. It was, it was nuanced. Immediately, you know, check our sources in the description. And I got, and I went, What is this organization? I've never seen anything like this. It was highbrow. It was eloquent. It was like all the— it had all of the accoutrements of real truth tellers and real intellectual people. So I was like, oh my God, what is this? And then I went to every other video and time and time and time again, even and especially when it was controversial, I went, they're right. I remember there was a video on prisons, you know, is the prison system racist? And this guy at the beginning of the video said, we're gonna, you know, I wanna lay down my principles here. And I adopt this, I do this on Timeless. I recently did an episode on transgenderism and I said, I'm gonna start out with my principles about this. And I remember in the PragerU video they said, you know, no one should be wrongfully incarcerated. Prisoners should always be treated well. And I loved, I love that, just coming out with, you know, laying the groundwork before. Anyway, I'm trying to give examples of the impression it had, but I figured out that this organization was spectacular in truth-telling. And then I traced it to you. And that's how I found you. And every time you spoke, again, it was just— here's the thing, when people tell the truth, and when people are real, it hits something in you. It really does. That's why I think telling the truth is so powerful and everyone should do it. The human being has a proclivity to sin and to be evil and to do bad things. But also, when we hear the truth, something powerful is ignited in us.

Dennis Prager here with a man I have come to admire for his work. So when I asked him, what do you do? This is the title he gave: Wealth architect. Very simply put, I am a wealth architect that helps my clients accelerate the way they grow your wealth. It's not how much you make, it's how much you keep. The Internal Revenue Code is embedded with a number of things that you can take advantage of. It's what I call playing tax chess.

We take the time to play tax chess in your favor. We give our clients unbiased, independent advice across all areas in their financial life. Because we have no incentive to sell anything.

I was taken enough and impressed enough to have you do my work, and you have in fact saved me a serious amount of money. CharlesDombeck.com/Prager. Well, it raises the fascinating question to which I don't have a complete answer at all, because I follow a lot of the hate directed against me on the internet, for many reasons. And I will admit, I am amazed that somebody could actually watch a talk I give and then go, this is nonsense.

Me too.

Now you could say, you know, he said X, and let me tell you why I differ. I respect that. But, oh, this is a bunch of lies. This is nonsense. This is hate. The, the common dismissals. Uh, I, I don't, I don't know where it comes from in a human being, because you and I don't understand. If you are confronted with truths, why don't you instinctively respond positively? And I, I don't have, I don't have a complete answer.

Well, this is my hypothesis, and it's— I think it's partially right, but it's not the entire answer. I really want to explore this. Why, when people hear the truth and they know it's the truth, are they not attracted to it? Why don't they want to pursue it and adopt it and speak it and honor it? I think part of it is that people are afraid. Of the truth. And this is my whole thing. The truth is good. When you actually get down to the truth, the truth may be uncomfortable.

I love that saying.

But the truth is not— the truth isn't bigoted. The truth doesn't favor men over women. The truth doesn't favor white people over Black people. Do you know what I mean? Totally. The truth is good.

That's why I love your saying.

And that's why— and when I discovered that, because the truth is God-given.

I've got—

boy, we were talking about— this is so Dennis and Julie. We're talking about like, Honey Bunches of Oats, the names, and now we're talking about the God-given truth. But, um, this is, this is how— this is one of the, the, the, um, one of the biggest ways I believe in God is my belief that the truth is good.

That's beautiful.

It really, it really is.

Yes.

And so, so anyway, I just want to finish this, this point that I think people are afraid of it. I think that when, during Black Lives Matter, I think when people would speak the real truth about how, this is so uncomfortable, but the truth is uncomfortable, that the main problems in Black America were not systemic racism or were not police brutality, it was fatherlessness. And, you know, victimhood, victimhood and all of those things. I am not afraid of saying that truth because I fundamentally don't believe that Black people are inferior to white people. I believe that the Black community in the United States of America has overwhelmingly adopted a culture that is not beneficial. And by the way, to really get into it, I think a lot of this culture has been fueled by racist Democrats who encourage and legitimize fatherlessness and victimhood.

Black people don't think they're victims, vote Republican.

And so the point is, I'm not afraid of confronting the truth because I know the truth is not eugenicist. I know the truth is, okay, there's a problem with culture and all different kinds of people, no matter what race or gender or religion you are, can adopt bad cultures. And I want to get to that truth because I'm not afraid of it because I know it's not going to prove something that's deeply malignant. I think leftists, if this is making any sense—

it's making total—

there might be a part of them that actually believes in the eugenicist or, you know, argument that some races are unequal to other races because they're afraid of confronting—

when a white says, as all woke whites say, Starting with the woman who wrote White Fragility. True hack of, I don't remember.

Robin DiAngelo, right?

I think so, yeah. So all whites are racist. So a teacher, a white teacher says this in front of you. Why isn't it, among other things, why isn't it just self-damning? If a non-Jew got up and said all non-Jews are antisemitic, I, as a Jew, would hear the following: I know you're lying because I know so many non-Jews who aren't anti-Semitic. In fact, 99% of those I've known, and I've known more than I've known Jews, is non-Jews. And they're not anti-Semitic. So therefore, all you're saying is you are.

Right.

You are getting up and saying I am an anti-Semite.

Right.

A white who says all whites are racist? Since it is, how does a black hear that? Why isn't the black in the same position I as a Jew am with the other example? Why doesn't a black say, well, wait a minute, I've really known a lot of non-blacks. Frankly, I didn't see any racism in them. So clearly, this piece of crap who's talking to me, this moron, in the guise of a professor, uh, is just saying that he or she is a racist. There is nothing else added in that statement, right? Why, why doesn't a Black hearing that say that? Do they— does, does— do Blacks really— does the average Black American believe all whites are racist?

Well, they've been told that.

Well, no, I, I— that's a separate issue.

I know, but when you hold something in us—

okay. You could tell me all, all non-Jews are anti-Semitic. You could tell me that for 40 years. I would know it's a lie. I know what I experienced. You can't lie to me about my life. If Blacks are capable of being lied to and find it convincing, there is no hope for this country. You are being lied to as much as I would be that all non-Jews are anti-Semitic. It is a total goddamn— oh, we're not allowed to say that, except I would say it. May God damn that lie. I stand by that wish. God should damn that lie.

And for the record, as I know you know, it's not just Black people who are being lied to in this country. It's women, it's gay people, it's trans people. It's every person that is somewhat in the inter— intersectional stratosphere who's being lied to that America hates their group. I as a woman have been told my whole life by the left that I am somehow oppressed for living in the United States of America, and I've never experienced oppression because of my womanhood a day in my goddamn life. So I hear you, but I just—

Okay, you can't— Okay, go—

Yeah, sorry.

In my, in my, in my damn life.

But wait, but wait, but why are we doing that? Because if it's—

Yeah, so no, so you're right. —But you don't have no— your life is not goddamn, that's the difference. I want God to damn the lie, but your life is not goddamn.

—Yeah, that's good. That's like what you've taught me, "with regard," not "in regards to." You send your regards. When you're talking about something, you say "with regard." But let's take another example. I've always been against affirmative action because I don't think it— I mean, the evidence indicates that it doesn't work. It does. It actually— you should read the book Mismatched. You should read Tom Sowell's great book on affirmative action, that if people are not qualified to get into a certain school, they're more likely to drop out. And you would rather have an individual go to a school where that is more matched to their abilities at the time so that they can excel in that environment. So I believe affirmative action doesn't work. But also, I believe that people of all races, of all backgrounds, can prove in the United States of America, can prove themselves based on their own merit. And when you say that, like, there's, it's amazing to me how there's such hostility from the left, you know, to many of these viewpoints. And again, it goes back to my hypothesis, which is not the full picture, but I think there's this, I think they may, many of them may have a kind of malignant view. That Black people can't prove themselves on their own merit. That's correct.

The only systemic racism is from the left. The only— yes, there is no doubt every leftist thinks Blacks are inferior. I just don't— because they admit it. If we have the same standards for everyone, you Blacks can't make it. That is what white leftists say. That's what Black leftists say. Right. It is a completely racist notion.

It is. It's a racist notion to say that finding one right answer in math is white supremacy, as the Oregon Department of Education says, or that as the Smithsonian Institute says, that certain virtues are white— punctuality, working before you have fun, objectivity, nuclear family. That is so racist, essentially saying, you know, I don't think that Black people or minorities are capable enough of, you know, adopting these universal values. So we're going to paint them as you know, this terrible bigoted thing. But God, I, I, I know it's complicated, but I have to say I'm, I'm proud of this point that I've come up with because I'm not afraid to get to the truth. That's right. Even when it's uncomfortable, because I know the truth is good. I know even it's uncomfortable to acknowledge fatherlessness in the black community. I know it's not because black people have an intrinsic genetic you know, proclivity to be, to run out on their families. I know that it's a broken culture that, that actually many of them are victims of. So it's like the truth, the truth is good when you get down to it. Let's all get down to it.

Since I began debating people who differ with me, which is very early in my life, it's often been said I'm a very good debater. For example, my arguments at Oxford have gone viral on Hamas, ironically from 8 years ago. So I have often asked myself, why am I an effective debater? So, okay, I have innate abilities to speak and I think clearly. I acknowledge that, but a lot of people can speak and think clearly. And I realized— this is why I so respond to you, because it's the kindred spirit that we have. At a very early age, I realized I don't want to win. I just want to know what's true. And that is my secret weapon. Yes. The reason I am so effective is that I have no agenda. Accept the truth. You have taught me that.

I mean, one of, one of your best lines ever is clarity over agreement, because that's, that's what it is. I want to get to, okay, what do you believe? What do I believe?

And what really is the case? Let the listener figure out what is true.

And let's lay out those three options.

Yeah, but that really is— that's the secret to my— that's why I never fear a debate. I am prepared to say in a debate, Good point. Totally. That's right. You know what, I had not— I had not thought about that. That's a very— that's a very valid point. I, I don't— I'm not winning for Dennis. I want to just figure out what is true. That alone would make the world good, just the pursuit of truth. I— if I had a choice, would I have everyone believe in God or have everyone pursue truth, I would choose pursue truth because there are so many people who believe in God who don't pursue truth. I'm not talking about a lot of religious people, just vast numbers of people say they believe in God and they don't give a damn about truth. So, but that is how much, and I'm a big God believer, but that is how much I am convinced lies are the root of evil.

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It is. That's the issue. The issue is not that you sympathize with trans kids or anything. The only issue is, is it true or false? It is 100% lie. A man cannot become a woman. End of issue. You can look like one. You can think you are one. You could do a million, but you can't become one. I cannot become another species. I cannot become another race. That's just the way it works.

I love what you just said about how your agenda is pursuing the truth in those arguments. It's like the truth is your North Star. And if you're following that, if someone, you know, if someone comes up to you and go, okay, let me point this out to you of how you may be going the wrong way. I don't, I don't, I don't view that as a knock on me. I don't view that as a concession. I view that as actually a help to me. Because you're bringing me closer to the truth. You know, let's say— I mean, you, you know this, and I've seen this on your radio show. Let's say you cite a statistic, someone calls in and goes, Dennis, you're wrong. You said that, you know, 5 out of 100 people have X, and what you meant to say is that 2 out of 100 people have X. I always see you go, oh, thank you. You don't view it as, oh God, that was embarrassing, or I have to defend me. It's It's pushing you towards that North Star. So here's— we're sort of talking about it, but let's go back to this question of why is it that some people, when they hear the truth, are attracted to it, want to follow it?

And why is it that when some people hear the truth, they freak out and they're allergic to it? You have an answer?

Well, as I said, I think that some people are afraid that the truth is going to reveal something that they that is, that they don't like.

Okay, that's right.

Um, so recently on Timeless, I was interviewing Spencer Klavan. We do this Thinker of the Month series, and we were talking about Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn because around the time, uh, right now is the 50th anniversary of the Gulag Archipelago, which, by the way, you asked when I was in college how many people at Harvard know what the Gulag Archipelago is. And I didn't know it.

Well, and you're asking me that. That's really important.

And I said that on Timeless.

Good, that answers my question. No, and it's— if you didn't know it, and I've since read—

truly nobody knows it. But we talked about this Solzhenitsyn line, which, God, I've been thinking about so much lately, that his famous line that the line of good and evil runs across every human heart. So I just want to I say that because when I'm asking the question, why are some people attracted to the truth and others run away from it, it's not a binary. It's not that, you know, and Solzhenitsyn talks about this. He says, if only it were so simple that there were just some evil people that we just had to, you know, destroy and get rid of and then everyone else was good. Everyone, the people who run away from the truth have some proclivity to good and the people who run towards it have some proclivity to bad. I just want to acknowledge that. But still, there, there, I have encountered these themes where there are some people, and it's not across gender or race, or, but there are just some individuals who are more attracted to the truth than others who don't freak out when they hear it. So I don't know what it is.

I, I know I agree with you. And it, it's, it sort of renders the human condition somewhat hopeless because every generation has vast numbers of people who believe lies. I mean, we're bathing in them. Israel is committing genocide. It's as big a lie as men can become women.

Well, it really does kind of perhaps confirm a biblical belief that there is an animate force of evil that is always working in life. Well, yeah. And it's coming. I mean, because look around us, like, and by the way, Again, nothing is 100% good. The United States of America, I love this country. It's not 100% good. Israel, I love it as a country. It's also not 100% good. Nothing is. But the overwhelming forces for goodness in society right now, they are the most targeted. And it's crazy to me because you look at it and you go, why? Why would so many people go after, for instance, the United States of America? We're all the beneficiaries of this system. If the people who claim to care so much about the plight of minorities and the plight of women and the plight of immigrants, they should be the most vociferous defenders of the United States of America. They should realize that this system has produced the best possible system in human history for everyone, and especially minorities and discriminated against people. But the good countries are the most targeted. The evil countries like Iran, you know, which are so misogynistic, or half of Africa's 54 countries which criminalize homosexuality, including in some cases with the death penalty, they're ignored. And so you kind of look at this situation, and it again leads me closer to a biblical worldview of a conscious animate force of evil is going to swarm towards goodness and try to eat away at it. That is just what we see time and time and time again.

Yeah, so whether there's an independent celestial force is— that's a matter of faith. Obviously, it's not— you can't prove there's a devil or anything. But I, I will acknowledge that in the last few years, I have a much better understanding of the concept of the diabolic, that it seems to originate with the devil. I don't believe in any independent force other than God because that's right. My monotheism is very pure, but I fully get it. I don't disparage it. It makes sense. The demonic does seem to exist. When you, when you read about what, what Hamas did on October 7th, tie families together and burn them alive, and then scream Allahu Akbar, that their God is great. Their God is demonic. I mean, if that's their God, if their God thinks burning families is a beautiful thing and that you're proud to take pictures of it, if that's not demonic, obviously the term should be relinquished. We should never use it. Whether you believe literally in demons or not is secondary. I, I don't literally believe in, in demons, but I don't laugh at people who do when there is no non-transcendent reason for such evil. That human beings do these things and enjoy it and think they're honoring their God I mean, that's, that's a, that's tough to explain.

But look at, and I, and I hear you too, I'm, I'm kind of conflicted about it. There, I like you in recent years have entertained the possibility more and more of a devil or a conscious animate evil force that's trying to find its way in. But I'm also still conflicted. I, I also believe that God gave us free will and, and the, part of the deal of free will is that you have a capacity to do evil things as well as good things. But it really is stunning to me that if you just look at the course of human history, time and time and time again, the most righteous people and systems are the most persecuted. Yeah. And I mean, that's the whole story of Christianity. And that's why I think it's, you know, it's an immensely powerful story because here we have this person who was the— was God. I mean, was the most righteous person, was only doing good deeds, and he was crucified. You know, it teaches us that in a way it's almost like if you are being persecuted, that may be an indication that you're doing the right thing. I mean, I find that a lot. Sometimes I—

Well, just for the record, just you'll find this of interest, right? Because you're deep. Yes, say the least. So Jews, believing Jews anyway, have understood themselves as the suffering servant of God. This has been so consistent, the desire to annihilate Jews, not just persecute them but annihilate them. And it's always done by the great evil of the world at that time. And I do believe that, by the way. I actually wrote my column after October 7th that what is happening, it just confirms my religiosity. And specifically in this case, because I transcend just being a Jew in the sense that I care, obviously, to bring the Ten Commandments to all human beings. And I want Christians to thrive and so on. Right. But as a Jew and as a religious one, I, I will say that my belief that the Jews are the chosen people was in fact reinforced on October 7th. Hmm. Why? For what you just said. The decent are the most hated. And it's not that Jews are all terrific. My problems with Jews are, are universally known. I know. But. Israel is a pretty damn decent country. Yes, it is. And Hamas is indistinguishable from Nazis in terms of level of evil. So Nazis hate Jews is a given in Jewish history. It depends on who the Nazi is. That's what That's what Netanyahu was referring to when he spoke about Amalek, the biblical nation that God is particularly angry at for what it did to the Israelites and, you know, wants to wipe them out, as it were. They never got wiped out. It's all, in a sort of sense, figurative, but that's what he meant. He meant every generation has the Amalek that wants to annihilate us. In this generation, it's Hamas and Hezbollah and al-Qaeda and all these others. So that's, that's true. It's either—

again, it's a truth issue. Mm-hmm. You know, when I see these people all over the country, actually, literally around the street, around the corner from my apartment, there was this girl tearing off my age, a girl tearing off posters of the Israeli hostages.

You saw this? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Do you know who she is?

No. And people were taking videos of her. But really? Yeah. Someone was like, well, your face is going to be, you know, on the internet showing this evil. And she goes, boo-hoo. And they go, you're ripping down photos of baby, you know, the baby and these young women who are being held captive by Hamas. And And she's like, yep. And she goes, well, you don't care about the genocide of Palestine. I mean, so, okay.

So, well, that, by the way, that's, that's a lie. As I think I said, did I say this earlier? I think I did. Yeah. That's, that's up there with men, men give birth.

Yes, it is. So, but I look at these people and it's so hard because I think both are true. I think that they're intensely brainwashed, but that they're also evil. Yeah. And, but I, but sometimes I go some, I think that we give a lot of credence and a lot of airtime to the brainwashing, and that's absolutely true. But let me tell you something, and this is not, when I'm saying this, I'm not trying to say that I am inherently better than anybody else, but I know myself. And at the height of my brainwash in lefty world, if you showed me a video of what these thugs and that's a nice name for them, did on October 7th, taking these women with the bloody pants. And I mean, you— no amount of brainwash, right, could have convinced me that that was okay. I know myself, and that's right, it would have, and it does obviously strike something in me that would have countered all that brainwash. And that's what makes me entertaining.

One person who was not brainwashed— the brainwashed are to be blamed for being brainwashed.

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The, the, the fact that one person has seen this or heard this or read this and knows this is a lie, that means everyone could have known it is a lie.

They chose not to believe that. Because here's the thing about the human being. And this is saying these Dennis and Julie conversations always have a way of inadvertently flowing. I was saying that, you know, the line of good and evil runs across every human heart. And I said that when you, when you hear we have proclivities to do terrible things, but also when you hear the truth or you see the truth, I think it strikes something in you. This is what makes me believe that these people are evil, because it's a primal human urge, I think, to, or a primal human emotion to see someone being physically harmed and feel sad for them. I think the human being has that just innate instinct to know that when someone is being violent against another person, you know, that that is an innocent person.

An innocent person.

You're right. You're right. No, that is very important. An innocent person. And so that's what makes me believe that, that many of these individuals are truly evil. Yeah, because it's like, like they're not paying attention to, or maybe they don't have that, that primal instinct.

So now you know why I knew in high school that I was not a leftist. I thought I was a liberal, but I knew I wasn't a leftist because leftists didn't hate evil. They didn't hate communism. And that, that what you said is what I said. Wait a minute. You know how many people Stalin murdered and Mao murdered and Pol Pot murdered? Well, Pol Pot wasn't— I was— that was after high school, right? Uh, and I'm saying, wait, you know that? You, you understand the amount of torture and that they enslaved whole societies and you don't hate them? That's, that's what, that was my immediate reaction to why I loathe the left from high school to today. Mm-hmm. The left does not hate evil. It hates Israel, it hates America. And that's, by the way, that's the whole point. When you don't hate evil, you hate the good.

Mm-hmm. And by the way, you know, I agree with you more, more than anyone that this exists far more on the left in modern America than it does on the right. But for the record, I mean, I've talked about this on this show. I met someone at a bar recently who was conservative and he was talking to me about how much he loves Putin. Putin. And, you know, how great— Putin's a traditionalist and, you know, he's a great guy. And I said, well, what about, you know, him torturing and imprisoning dissidents?

And what did he say?

And this guy goes, like who? And I said, like Alexei Navalny. And the guy goes, Alexei Navalny's a lib. He does— he deserves, you know, whatever happened to him. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

Now, my dear, dear Jules, The battle for good is a tough one.

Well, as you always say, you don't— well, I actually want you to say it because you always say it so much better than I say it, as with most things. But you say that you're not a member of a community. Your life is comprised of individuals. Yes.

Not so much that I'm not a member of one.

That's why I wanted you to say this. No, no, no.

You're very close. I have looked at my life and I look at— I have tremendous amount of support and I have a tremendous amount of hate. That's a given. And I'm obviously, I have— I'm very moved by group number one. But group number one is mostly individuals. It's not inherent to a group. That's all. That there's You know, some people you just know if you are a this, you will like this person, and fill in Christian, Jew, Catholic, Muslim, atheist, you know, just— I've tended to appeal overwhelmingly to individuals more than to groups. Mm-hmm. And that's, by the way, it's not a lament. It's just a realization about my life.

You know, and I find this with conservatives, and this is again to reiterate, with the belief that far more evil by many, many times over exists on the left among leftists in America right now than on the right. However, I've even seen, you know, I've met a conservative like that who is, you know, praising Putin. I can't say he's the only one I've ever met like that. But sometimes I'll encounter people who say that they're conservative or say that they're Republicans and I'll go, why? And they're like, taxes. Or they'll be like, you know, and it's like, it's douchey. Oh, sorry, I don't know if I can say that word on the air. You can. I can? Yeah. Wow, really?

Why? Yeah, it doesn't mean you should, but.

I used it on Timeless recently and I didn't check to see if Sean blew.

It's okay, we're real. Yeah, we're real.

It's just, it's douche. And some people may view this as an overreaction, but I know that you won't because I know that you get how much I care about the battle of good and evil, which is the battle of any time, but especially right now in our time. But it's just like, what? You're not a conservative because you, you hate the evil that you're seeing? You're conservative because you want a tax break? Like, I get wanting a tax break. Trust me, I live in California. Half of my paycheck is out the window. Before I can even, you know, look at it. That's true. But you're like, that's why you're conservative. It's not because they're, they're transing the kids. It's not.

That's why you're libertarian, not conservative. That's the difference. And I have great respect for libertarians, but that's a libertarian answer, not a conservative answer. He should have said, I'm a libertarian. Well, no, I don't. I don't think so. Oh, I do. Because libertarians don't generally take positions based on morality. Right. That's not their argument. They're very pragmatic. This works. This doesn't work. Which, by the way, is— I believe pragmatic and good are almost synonymous. If it doesn't work, it isn't good in a way.

And we're on paper closer to libertarians than we are to leftists. But in a way, sometimes the libertarian arguments tick me off more than the leftist arguments. Because the leftists have a poorly calibrated moral compass. But the libertarian argument is, well, what's a moral compass? You know, we should just like, hands off.

I agree with you. Who's inculcating values?

Where do values come from? I mean, I'll take libertarians over the left any day, but you would too.

But I just, you're right. That's not how they think. So look, I'm very pragmatic. I want allies wherever I can find them.

Of course.

And what libertarians do— the only thing libertarians do that rankles me is that they have a party and that takes away votes from Republicans, which means that the left that the libertarians theoretically loathe will be more likely to be elected thanks to the libertarians. Now, why? How do they justify that? I have no idea other than an inflated self-importance. We are so important, we'll make our own political party. And if it means the left wins, so be it. That's not rational and it's not moral.

I just want to clarify, I agree with you. I just want to clarify quickly because I think I said, you know, libertarians, there's no moral compass. That was the wrong thing to say. What I meant to say was that, and this is absolutely true, libertarians say it themselves, They think the whole idea of certain social values is paternalistic. And that itself is— that's their moral compass. Their moral compass is just hands off. But they don't believe— like, I've gotten into debates on my show with libertarians. Like, they don't believe in leaders or individuals espousing certain social values. Like, in that way, they're very hands-off. They're like, well, who's, who's to say? Who's to tell you how you should live your life? And half of that I agree with. You should— you shouldn't, you know, be down people's throats, but also you shouldn't be allowing people to trans the kids.

Right. Also, I have no problem in people telling me how to live my life. I have a problem with them legislating how I should lead my life. Yep, that's a very big difference. If you thought that I should keep my kid out of school for 2 years, you could certainly think that. But if that's the law you passed, there was no school open, you're, you're scum. I don't care how you think, I care how you rule. The left wants to rule, not persuade. That's the danger. I want to persuade. I have no desire to rule.

It really is like— and you've said this before— I don't feel any desire to force things on people the way that the left does. That's right.

Well, I have no desire to police people. Virtually none of us do. That's right.

I believe, as I was just saying, so they'll say abortion.

So as if, by the way, let's say that's true. First of all, it's not. There are a lot of answers to that, but you to take one example and say that generalizes the, in the, that conservatives want to rule over people like leftists do is just dishonest because it's, it's almost unique in, in the world of the right of how we will legislate what we believe in.

Well, it's not being pro-life. I don't view it as ruling over people. I actually view it as the opposite. I view it as, as letting the child live.

Yes, that's right. On logical grounds, that's like saying we're ruling over people because we're banning homicide or we're banning bank theft. I— yes, there's so much dishonesty in that, in that debate. It's, it's I mean, look, the very notion of— and I don't want to obviously get into the whole abortion issue, but I thought just the notion that the fetus, the human fetus, is of infinite worth if the mother wants it and it's not worth a pimple if she doesn't is not a moral argument. It's— we— there is no example of that. Can you say that about a, a born person? Why can you say it about an unborn person? If, if you— if I shoot a woman who is pregnant and the baby dies, I'm arrested for homicide. Yep. But if she doesn't want it and she goes to a doctor to get to kill the baby, it's a non-issue. So why is that I don't understand, is there any other parallel in life to the, I am the sole source of moral decision-making as there is a mother over what she's carrying?

This is not a precise answer at all, but it's a first cousin, it's related, but it's a different application of standards and a different moral application of standards in the same way, you know, the left says protect protect women or protect minorities. But the second that those women and minorities are conservative or oppose them, then they no longer deserve that protection.

Like Israeli women. Israeli women.

If Israeli women are raped, it's not protect women because those Israeli women are the privileged. Yes. With Black people, you know, protect Black people unless you're Clarence Thomas. That's right. Then ruin his life with lies or Candace Owens or Larry Elder. And in fact, call him the blackface of white supremacy. So yeah, we see moral relativism in all realms of life. But you know, I know that you're saying we probably shouldn't get into the abortion issue, and I agree with you, but also— Go ahead. It's Dennis and Julie, so here we are.

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I gotta tell you, because I, I am so drawn to the truth There is no good— there are good arguments against being pro-life, but from a moral standpoint, I can't find a moral justification for being pro-choice. I can find emotional justifications, and I guess in some ways I could find a moral justification if the woman is raped. But again, let's get down to the really hard truth here. If you— even if a woman—

it's impossible to say. I know that it doesn't. There's no moral— that's what I'm finding. That's why my video, which went viral on abortion for PragerU, I opened it up saying I'm not talking about legality, only morality. There is no moral argument for abortion if the mother's life is not endangered. There is no moral argument. I'm sorry. I know that's because you and I care about truth. I am not fixated on the issue. I don't speak about it that much. But if you care about truth, then you're— the argument that a baby in the womb or human fetus, if you want to call it that, fine, has no worth, has no stature.

This is so hard and it is heartbreaking and it is painful and it is deeply uncomfortable. But if a woman is raped, that, that the child of rape is, is just as precious of a child as a child of consent, consensual sex.

This will sound boring to people, but now, you know, these are the moments that I adore you. You're, you're Your conviction about telling the truth at any price, it is so— it's so wonderful and so does my heart good because we, we get it. You were raped and now you have to carry that child.

Oh my God. Can you imagine?

Emotionally, I— you and I both respond. But if the child has worth, how it was conceived is another issue. I know. Either it's— either it is human or it's garbage. I mean, what is there in between? Half human, half garbage? I debated a guy about 30 years ago on this. I'll never forget. I wish there was a recording of it. And I kept saying, you know, in the view of this, of the people who were pro-choice, the human fetus might as well be a pimple. It is not worth more than a pimple. And finally the guy just got disgusted and he goes, yes, that's right. I regard it as a pimple. And I thought, okay, I just want the— I just want it. I don't have to do anything more. Hmm. I forced the man to acknowledge that there was no difference between removing a pimple and removing a child.

And this is what I wish people understood, because I'm, I'm going in my mind back to my— I was never a leftist, but liberal self. And I really believed that conservatives were wrong and they were bigoted on abortion. And I thought, and I thought, it's so sick that they want to control women like this. And let me tell you, if there's someone listening who thinks that, I understand you. And I want, and it's now that I'm this me, I just want to make it so clear when I'm making these arguments, there is not one iota of a desire in me to control a woman's decision or to force something upon her that she doesn't want or isn't comfortable with. It's, it's actually like the emotion that I'm feeling isn't I want to force someone to do something. It's actually I want to take my hands off. It's actually, again, the opposite. It's I want to let— I want to protect that precious, voiceless, defenseless child, which has infinite worth because it is a human being. And I want to give that child the opportunity of life that all of us enjoy because we were not aborted. Isn't it funny? Like, it's just, it's so distorted. They— and look, maybe there are some crazy people who are pro-life because they have a malignant desire to control women. Maybe, I don't know. But I know pro-life people, and I am so sympathetic to the pro-life argument that I know it doesn't come from that. It literally comes from the opposite emotion of wanting to let things be free.

When you said it was the opposite of what in fact exists— Sean, can you, uh, play the coach from the New England, uh, Patriots? I want you to hear a line that the head coach of an NFL team, the New England Patriots, Gerard— what? Mayo? Yeah, Gerard Mayo. This— he just had a press conference. He's a Black guy. Head coach of an NFL team. It's a very, very, very big position. Well salaried, highly respected. And listen to what he said. I don't know if I— is it coming through? I do see color because I believe if you don't see color, you can't see racism. Okay. Okay. What that man said, every liberal listening let alone leftist, agrees with. It shows you the lack of ability to think rationally among many liberals and all leftists. What the band said, if you don't see race, then you don't see racism, is literally the opposite of reality. As I said on my radio show, Do you think any Jew in Germany in the 1930s would have said, well, if you don't see ethnicity, race, or religion, then you're an anti-Semite? Wouldn't he have said, I wish you didn't see race, ethnicity, or religion? The man said the opposite, literally the opposite. It would be like saying gray is yellow. He said the opposite. Of the truth. And the whole sportswriting world filled with idiot savants. They know sports and they know nothing else. Sportswriters are particularly stupid people, and they are. I have been following them all of my life. The moment they stray from sports, they become morons. These are the people who led the argument that Washington Redskins was racist and bigoted, even though American Indians, Native Americans, didn't think so. You have no idea. When they write on sports, I love reading them. When they write on the rest of life, they're fools. Every— virtually every one. Like, just like actors and actresses. That is correct. So they listen to this guy and go, wow, boy, is that true? If you don't see race, you don't see racism. No, if you do see race, you see racism, you moron. We live— the New York Times is filled with morons. Harvard is filled with morons. Forget that they're immoral. Forget that they promote evil. The fact is they're stupid. This is what can drive a man crazy. They don't think clearly. If you see race, you're a racist. If you don't see race, you're not a racist. It is the opposite of what that moron said, and everyone in the room agreed with him.

Harrumph.

No, this is so important. I know it is. They're intellectual lightweights, the entire left. Forget that they're moral morons. Moral idiots is the term. They are intellectually bereft of ability. They don't know how to think. They're stupid. That line is stupid. The only people who aren't racist are people who don't give a damn about race and don't see race. I wrote, I mentioned on my radio show, I wrote a piece, it's a great piece, I don't know, a couple of years ago. One of the ways I fell in love with America in my 20s, I joined the Simi Valley California Rotary Club. It was a very tiny city, but I was living— that's where I went to live. Brandeis. Yes, because of Brandeis Party Institute. So I lived in Simi Valley for 3 years. And nobody— I actually had to travel 20 minutes just to go to eat. At least 20 minutes. Anyway, I joined the Simi Valley Rotary Club, and I was the only Jew in the club. And I wrote this piece years ago. I said, you know what blew my mind? Nobody gave a damn.

That was the old America. No one gave a damn. No one.

That's right.

But they've made us now give a damn.

That's right. So that's what made them non-antisemitic. If they'd have been fixated on my being a Jew That would have been a problem. I was Dennis, not Dennis the Jew, not Dennis the Black, not Dennis the White, not Dennis the Asian, the homosexual.

Right. Gosh. And you know what? I just want to pause because I know why you're getting so animated about this, because it goes back to the theme of this show, the theme of every show, good and evil and truth and truth. Well, that's to me good and evil. It's, it's if you're good, you're going towards the truth. If you're evil, you're going away from it. This is— that is why you are getting so upset. Yes. Yes, they are intellectual lightweights, but they're intellectual lightweights in supporting evil things, in their intellectual lack of— giving credence.

Can you be an intellectual lightweight and be good? So I don't know the answer.

I think so.

I think you can. Yeah. Yeah. Well, then. So here's a great question. Does the, does the average conservative understand what a lie that coach said? By the way, the coach believes it. So it's a philosophical question. If you believe it, is it a lie? But so, but leaving it aside, it is a gigantic lie. If you don't see race, you're a racist or that's racism. It's, it's, it's beyond lie.

It's, it's— Then Martin Luther King was a racist according to them.

His dream was racist, right? Well, at that time, people— hate what he wanted. Yes, he was. Exactly. Exactly. They hate when we quote that line. They hate it. Okay.

Well, that's part of my draw away from the left because it's like, if you're going to make stupid statements like that, then it's a pretty good indicator that your arguments are very hollow, you know? Right.

That's the reason they have to suppress dissent. Deep down, I believe leftists know that if anyone hears a counterargument, they will be persuaded. That's— that is why they shut us down from campuses. That is why all the social media shut us down. That— that you now know the reason. That's why they hate PragerU. They're afraid of a 5-minute video in a classroom will undo 8 years of brainwashing of the left. And you know what? They're right. Yes, it's a legitimate fear. Truth— I don't believe a little light conquers all darkness. That's a cute line. I wish it were true. But I do believe a little truth counters lies. That's—

yes, that's what I was saying. And you're a living—

yes, that's correct. That is true. They, in their— see, I wonder, God, I would give serious money to this man to sit down with me and have a public dialogue. And if I would explain to him what he said is meaningless and the opposite of truth, that the whole, the only non-racism is not to see race. I— would I convince him? See, I don't know the answer. See, so do people believe lies and absurdities because they've been brainwashed? That's the question. Yes, it is. And, and if they're— if they're shown logic and truth, they go, oh boy, I can't believe I believe that, that was so stupid. Or are they emotionally committed to the lie? I don't know the answer.

Well, I think it's that it's the same reason why the 51 ex-CIA or other intelligence officials signed that letter saying that the Hunter Biden laptop story was Russian disinfo when it wasn't. They believe that the lie is going to help them facilitate the greatest amount of goodness. That's correct. We got to get that evil Trump out of office. So even if it's not true that the Hunter Biden laptop story is Russian disinformation, we're going to say it's true because we're actually helping.

So again, I would pay serious money to have all 51 of those ex-heads of the FBI, CIA, and so on. I would like to have them individually say, now that you know that what you wrote was completely untrue—

they knew at the time what they wrote was completely untrue.

Did you know it then? See, I would like this done under— while they were on a lie detector, right? Did you know it then? And let's say, no, I didn't know it then. Did you believe then that this was likely to be Russian disinformation? Now what do you believe? If, let's say, you did believe that this nonsense, that it was Russian disinformation, okay, looking back Are you ashamed of yourself? See, I believe there's no shame on the left. I wrote 40 years ago being— it's taken from the famous movie Love Story from the '60s or '70s, and it had a stupid line. Being in love means never having to say you're sorry, which was a stupid line, but okay.

I don't even see— I don't— what does it even mean? No, it means nothing.

Okay. I don't get it. But so I took that famous line and I said, being on the left means never having 'Never having to say you're sorry.' And it's as true today as it was when I first wrote it. You're right, by the way. You have the same reaction to the movie line that I did. I go, 'Wait, wait, no, I think I'm being in love means never having to say you're sorry.' I remember—

No, right. No, literally, I'm not being—

As you would say, what does it mean? It's one of those lines that means nothing. It's just like, 'You don't have to say you're sorry to your spouse.' No, I remember. I remember I remember saying to friends, I wasn't even on radio yet, and I remember saying, I gotta see the year of the movie, I think it was in the '60s, and so I remember saying, wait a minute, I would think being in love means frequently saying you're sorry. That's the whole point.

See, here's the thing, what drives me crazy is when I can't understand it. Like that football coach, whoever that guy was, what he said was stupid, but I could understand it. I could get into his head and understand his argument. This— that line, I literally like don't understand what it's saying. I just— we may be close to out of time, but there are two points I want to make, if you don't mind.

The first is, if they minded, they wouldn't be watching. That's true. Yeah, Eric Siegel. Yes, that's— I said Love Story, 1970. Okay, so when did I start on radio? One minute, hold on.

40 years ago.

Yeah, I don't know, the '80s, right? Okay, go on.

We've said this before on Dennis and Julie, but it just continues to amaze me, the inversions in modern society, and it's all across the board. This guy says that if you don't see race, you're racist. That is literally the opposite. Like, If you don't see race, you aren't racist. Yeah, that's right. Like it's the opposite.

Yeah, that's why I said the opposite. Right. Like, right.

They say that, you know, people are lying if you say that there are only two genders, but there are only two genders is the truth. Mm-hmm. They say that, you know, the United States is an evil country. It's a good country.

Right. Everything is the truth. Israel's the villain and Hamas are the victims.

It's all in it.

It's all inversion. What? It's all— That's right. That's why my analogy is the left doesn't have a broken moral compass, because a broken moral compass may be right twice a day like a broken clock. Their moral compass is set to north is south and south is north. It doesn't on occasion make a mistake of north and south.

It's always wrong. Another example is when they talk about, you know, gender-affirming care for minors. That's not gender-affirming care. It's gender-denying abuse. My— diversity, equity, and inclusion is not diverse. It's not equitable, equitable, and it's not inclusive. It's crazy.

So I figured out, my gosh, for all you guys who are around Julie's age or a little older—

by guys, do you mean guys or do you mean like guys and girls? Okay. Yeah, guys and girls.

Yes. Oh, who, uh, would like to, to have a date with Jules. Oh my God, I know, I'm sorry to embarrass you. I know how I am giving you now the ticket to her heart.

Marie Jainer?

Close. Better, Solzhenitsyn. Yeah, I go through these obsessions. It's so like if a guy said to you on a date, oh my God, you know, I, I was reading Cancer Ward the other day, you would go, what, did Dennis send you?

That's— well, I would believe that Dennis sent him.

Yes, I would. Exactly.

I told him what to say. This stuff is— I, I know I'm like a—

Cancer Ward is one of the famous, uh, the most famous thing Solzhenitsyn wrote is One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich.

And he got permission from Khrushchev to write that. Because that was the Khrushchev thaw period of the Soviet Union, right? So I said I had two more things to say.

You know that Khrushchev took off a shoe in the United Nations and banged it and said, we will bury you? No. Oh, look it up, you'll crack up. Khrushchev was a Ukrainian peasant. He wasn't Russian. Stalin wasn't Russian, and, uh, Khrushchev wasn't Russian.

Oh, how about, how about Hitler wasn't German?

That's right. And, uh, Napoleon wasn't French. Napoleon wasn't French. And Muhammad Ali wasn't Egyptian.

And Mo— and Moses.

Moses was raised in Egyptian. Um, I know where you got that from.

You? Yes, that I know. And another one, Saladin, who's the like—

yeah, big Arab guy.

Muhammad Ali, I thought. No, Muhammad Ali is the boss.

Saladin was, uh, Muhammad Ali the boxer? No, not the boxer. No, no, no, no, no. He's named after a great Arab leader. Okay. If I'm not mistaken. Okay. And it might have been Saladin. Yeah. Go ahead. The second thing. Yeah. Okay.

So to go back to the abortion conversation for a minute, this is, this is like the fight of my life right now. Now I'm not talking about the issue of abortion. I'm talking about this kind of moral truth rabbit hole I'm in. I know that if I am going off of morality, that I would be against abortion, even if it is in the case of a woman who is raped. That is so hard. Like, and this is why I say it's like the fight of my life right now, because it's like sometimes I know, I know the truth is good. I know that it is a good thing to advocate for and defend a life, even if that life is the result of a terror or is the outcome of a terrible thing. But there are such costs to saying something like that, and I'm not going to stop saying it. Clearly, I'm saying it, but—

Oh, I would compromise on it for this, for the greater good of of having conservatives win elections and pass other laws with regard to abortion.

I hear you. Yeah. Oh, I totally hear you. Yeah. Oh, I know.

I'm just saying for the record, I don't— I don't take positions to feel good about myself. I take positions to do good, to— if you know that conservatives will lose elections because they advocate banning abortion in case of rape. So what you're saying is, for the sake of that principle, I am prepared to destroy the best society ever lived, that has ever been created. I'm not. And so I just want to make it clear. And by the way, that is why often I feel I have a lot of support. I have these— obviously I I have a huge amount of support. It's mostly from individuals, not communities, because there are so many people who are purists. Right. I'm not a purist.

And even to bring back the Bible, which is so funny because I— there's nothing that anybody should be ashamed of loving the Bible and being super religious. But I think you'd get an idea of me watching this show that I'm like this huge religious person because I quote the Bible so much. It's just funny to me because I love God and I love the Bible, but I, I wrestle with it all the time. But, but God doesn't even want us to be pure. I mean, in the, in the Sodom and Gomorrah story, he has to destroy that evil town at the expense of 10 righteous people. That's right. That's what we had to do in World War II when we partnered with the evil Soviet Union to defeat the greater evil of Nazi Germany. So, but, but I agree with you on the abortion issue legislatively, 100%. But the thing that I was trying to highlight is speak. What I tell myself is, okay, it's not just enough to know the truth. You have to speak the truth. Yeah, that's right. And that's in this abortion case is the biggest example.

I mean, that, you know, if a child is a child, then how it was conceived is not determinative any more than if you're born. Oh, you're the product of rape. You're not worth as much as a person who's the product of love.

It is so hard to sit on this podcast and put my face on the internet and say that. But then what I tell myself is, if I care about the truth as much as I hope I do, and as much as I want to, it's not just enough for me to know it. I have to say it.

That's precious. I think we'll leave it at that.

And I know you give me hope. And it— well, thank you. That's very sweet. I hope I'm worthy of that. But I, I know people will just come at me and it will be vicious, and they'll accuse me of hating women, of not, you know, of— yeah, not as, as if I don't think that the right act of rape is the most evil thing in the world, but You're going to get persecuted for telling the truth.

That's right. More than for any other single thing.

On that happy note, you can reach us at julie@julie-hartman.com. And I say us because Dennis also— I forward the emails to him and Dennis loves hearing from you guys as much as I do. So thank you. Thank you for writing into me. And you can follow me on Instagram and Twitter at Julie Hartman. R. Hartmann. And you can follow Dennis. That's right, you can. You can follow me, TheDennisPrager, on Instagram and @DennisPrager on Twitter. Shalom. Bye, everybody.

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