The Reason for the Season

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hello everybody and welcome to Dennis and Julie. I'm Dennis Prager. Julie Hartman. That's what we usually hear when we come into the show. Hi everyone, Dennis and Julie sans Dennis. Still as he is still in the hospital. I'm Julie Hartman. I'm joined here by our— what do we call you? Grandpa, bestie, menace, uncle, executive producer, technical director Sean McConnell. What? You— oh, turn on your mic. Oh my God, you're already acting like Dennis. All you need to do is hit the microphone.

Let's go with uncle because I'm not quite grandpa. Yet.

Well, it's great to have you on the air. Those of you who listen to Timeless have seen Sean on the air before, and we love his contributions, and he's always in the ear of Dennis during the show. Though I remember when I was listening to the show for the first time, the Dennis radio show, before I knew you guys, Dennis would always laugh at what you said. Yeah, but he would never actually repeat it on the air.

Well, There's a couple of reasons for that. One, I say a lot of funny stuff.

We know.

Two, I sometimes say things you cannot say on the air, should not say.

That I also know very well.

And three, Dennis doesn't think like that. He doesn't. He's kind of riffing and moving on and he doesn't. He never. So those are the three reasons. I would say about 10 or 12 years ago, Alan approached me and asked me to be on the air with Dennis because of the repartee that Dennis and I have, because he thought it was funny and it adds to the show. And I thought about it for a long time because I used to be a DJ. I used to be on the air and I used— before this life, used to be on the air.

Oh yeah, I didn't know that.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, really? Yeah.

In Northern California. Um, that's what I did before I came down here, and I thought about it for a long time. And I— and Dennis is Dennis. That's— it's, it's his thing. Uh, and I didn't want to interrupt his shtick.

Being Dennis is his thing.

I didn't want to mess up his— God forbid he's in the middle of something brilliant and I crack wise about something and it derails him from some point he may have gotten to that we all need to hear, that the world needs to hear. You don't do that so much. You bring it out of him. The discussions the two of you have. Yeah, you kind of play off each other and he'll say something brilliant and then you'll say something brilliant and then you'll both compliment each other and annoy the crap out of the audience.

But, and maybe out of you in the—

but you get to a lot of brilliance. And to be honest with you, I, like you at home, am a big fan of Dennis and I need him in my life and I need that wisdom. And it's, it's been hard without him. But so when they asked me if I would talk on the air, I said no.

Yeah.

I ultimately said no because I didn't want to be the reason Dennis didn't get to something brilliant. Not that I'm not funny. I'm funny and I can still talk in his ear and, and I appreciate them offering that to me. And it, it's still weird for me to sit here, but apparently people liked it and, and so. Here we are.

I know. I, it's funny to me that you said no all those years ago and then here we are.

I think a lot of people would've jumped at that chance.

Yeah.

But, and, and there's not, there's a part of me that wants to share my opinion. I think a lot of people wanna share their opinions, but I just didn't feel like it was the right forum. I, I, the, but ultimately I did not wanna interrupt Dennis. I didn't want to get in the way of what he does.

Uh, well, now you're sitting in now, now you're the Dennis, right?

And I go on the air with you and I'm more than capable of, chatting and cracking jokes and even an occasional good thought more. But that was my reason for not doing it. So I hope the audience enjoys the unheard me.

Well, they're hearing the heard you now.

Yeah.

And this episode is airing— oh God, let's see. I have to always check the dates airing. So right in the middle of— what would it be, the 15th of December? So it's right around the holiday season.

Yeah.

And, you know, Last year around the holiday season, I had this realization that I want to share with you, and it's changed the way that I view this time of year. I feel like a lot of us who— maybe I'm speaking more for my generation. My generation, Gen Z, is very secular, and up until recently I was pretty secular. And we kind of let the holidays come and we really just observe the secular traditions, the Christmas tree and the turkey and all that, you know, good stuff. But we don't really think about the meaning of of the holiday. And for some reason last year, it hit me that I was so lucky to live in a country that celebrates Christmas. I was so lucky to be able to go into a church on Christmas Day and see the way that religious people practice this. I just— I had such an appreciation for our religious freedom and the fact that this is such a big deal in our country, because in so many places you wouldn't have the freedom to read the Bible.

The birth of Christ. Christ or presents and Santa or the whole thing?

Well, certainly the, the latter, but no, I— what I mean is more the former. Like, we've lost, we've lost the sauce here a little bit. We've, we've lost the, the sense that this is a religious holiday, Christmas, that is.

And I can hear the one commenter out there going, uh, technically December 25th is not the birth of Jesus Christ. Okay, that's not the point. That's when we celebrate it. It's tradition.

Boy, I didn't hear that commenter in—

It'll happen. There's always one.

Well, screw them. But we've— I just feel like we've really lost sense of the fact that this is a sacred religious day and that even if you don't believe in it, we're so lucky to live in a country where we have the freedom to even explore. And it really was last Christmas, at least for me, when I actually started taking Christianity seriously. And actually, believe it or not, last Christmas was when I read the New Testament for the first time.

Wow.

Yeah. Because I thought, this is, this is just something that I really ought to appreciate. I mean, can you— there have been so many people all throughout history and still all around the world who yearn to know about God, who, who yearn to have some kind of connection and celebration and meaning, and they're denied that. And then here we are luxuriating in privilege in America where we get to go to church on Christmas. We get to read whatever we want to read. And many of us just throw that opportunity away.

Hmm. Dennis would say something brilliant right here. Like, only, only affluence affords you the luxury of not believing in God, right? Or something to that effect.

Well, you know what's weird to me? I don't know if, if you can, relate to this at all, or if you've seen this. And I talk about this a lot on Timeless. As you know, in December I've been doing a lot of gospels episodes and just stories from, from the New Testament. And my reason for it isn't so much— I mean, it's a little bit religious, but it's more so just to increase our biblical literacy. But I find that there's a very strange trend that has taken hold in America where people don't even want to know about it. I can't tell you how many people I ask, friends of mine, and I adore my friends, and I'll say to them, do you want to read the Bible with me this month, or do you want to, you know, increase our biblical literacy? And they're like, no, not really, I don't really have any interest in that. I can't understand that.

It's interesting why you bring that up.

Why wouldn't you be interested?

I had a long talk with my brother who was a hellion growing up and has become a pastor Really? Life is crazy that way. But we had this long discussion about how if you don't believe in God, I don't understand you, but I can live with it. But if you deny the wisdom of the Bible, you're a crazy person. Well, you have an agenda.

Not just that, but if you're not even interested in the wisdom from the Bible, that's what gets me.

Yeah. The re— it's, it's lasted for 5,000 years.

They deny it without even knowing it. I mean, the amount of people who say like, oh God, you know, religion is this, religion is that. It's, it's, you know, antiquated, it's patriarchal. And it's like, have you ever been to church? Have you ever read the Bible? Have you ever actually taken a look at the thing you're criticizing?

No. It's easy to hate something you don't know.

But this is like— I, I just got to a point in my life where I realized if people believe this to be the word of God, this is something I ought to know.

Yeah. So I have an interesting relationship to that. And I grew up staunchly Catholic.

You were— Sean was an altar boy, everybody.

I was an altar boy.

So cute.

My mom was the choir director. I sang in the choir. I went to CCD. I was confirmed, and I chose the confirmation name Bernard.

Mine was Rebecca because Saint Bernard—

Saint Bernard made me laugh, and I love dogs. That's where my head was at the time.

Few things have changed with you, huh?

And then I went to college and I thought I was so wise I didn't need God, I didn't need the Bible. And then as life went on and I took a trip to Israel and, and with Dennis, I realized that Jesus Christ walked the earth and it's impossible to deny that fact. Um, I would never say I didn't believe in God, but I, I put it aside. And I wasn't religiously practicing or anything. And there was also a lot of shame in my life when I sinned. I feel like I'm gluttonous, like I don't belong in church because I'm a sinner. That was a big part of my life too. But when I realized Jesus walked the earth and the wisdom of the Bible is undeniable and that God exists, how could all this exist without God? So I came back to a lighter form of Christianity and belief in God. And I still, I struggle with that. I do struggle. I don't struggle with believing in God. I struggle with the religious aspect of it.

What do you mean?

Going to church every Sunday, professing my faith. I struggle with those things. I don't, I don't for one second deny the existence of God, but, and I look to improve on that. I don't know quite where I belong. I mean, there was a time in my life I considered becoming a priest. That's how seriously I took it. And then straight away, Father Sean. But part of what brought me back was not just the trip to Israel, is Dennis's rational approach to the Bible. It made so much sense to me.

It's really life-changing because for me, I don't need to explain the illogical.

The way Dennis explains the rationale of the Bible, I need things to make sense. So I feel like in my brain there's a logical part of me and then I know faith is exactly that. It's a leap of faith that not everything needs to be explained, but on some level it needs to make sense to me. It needs to be rational or I can't believe. And so Dennis fills that gap like no other person.

Well, one of the main ways to me he fills the gap is it can really be synopsized in a single sentence where he says, how did life emerge from non-life?

Right. What had just happened.

I know that sounds so stupid for me to say, or what I'm about to say sounds so stupid. I had never considered that before because it's pounded into us. Evolution, evolution, evolution, evolution. And then you feel like you understand evolution. You feel like you understand how things happened, but you never ask the question, well, how did the first primate emerge? How did life emerge from non-life? That's an example of the rational approach because so many people say, well, how could you ever make the Bible rational? There it is.

I'm going to struggle through this, but maybe you can help me through it.

Okay.

Once you get past the Big Bang, that something from nothing.

Yeah.

Okay. That's one leap, which I do believe happened. Then you have the existence of God in time, and time is not relevant to the significance of the passage of time. Yes, I didn't— I did not cheat at that. I did not quote Kamala. God exists outside of time, right? But there are purists who will tell you the Earth was created, whatever, 5,000 years ago, or didn't exist, uh, dinosaurs, whatever, didn't exist. Like that— I'm gonna lose my train of thought on this. My point was, I don't believe evolution is an argument against the existence of God.

No, it's not. If anything, it's an argument for—

God created the Earth and then things evolved, right? That's my— what I'm— so when I got into the passage of time thing, that's what I'm saying. There's no— you can't hold the Bible down to a specific time. God created the universe and the earth and the things in the earth, and we have evolved since then, right? So I don't— you know what I'm saying? I don't believe that it's necessary to attach it to a specific story or make that story relevant uh, and factual in order for you to believe that God created the Earth?

Yes.

Okay.

And there's so— you know, when people say too, you know, oh, um, you know, if you challenge them and say, how did life emerge from non-life? And they say, oh well, I think science will explain that. That's a form of faith, right? That right there is a form of faith. Well, we put more faith in science these days, for which you think you have an explanation, right? I want to say two things. There's something that you had mentioned earlier. You said that you feel sometimes like you're a sinner and you're not worthy of going to church.

It's not just a feeling, I know it.

I, I mean, well, I, I really disagree with you. And this was one of the things that was so amazing to me as I was coming into faith, because I too thought that I was unworthy, you know, all that. And we talked about it the other day on Timeless. I did a show on the apostles, and when I went to Rome and walked into Saint Peter's a square, if you will. It's more like a— more like an oval. Uh, have you been there?

No.

Really? Wow. Oh my God, we gotta field trip it and put a camera crew on us.

I'm not a world traveler like you, Jules, or Dennis Prager.

Boy, I would love to take you there. I would really love it. I have— oh my God, I have so many stories for you that I could tell. Remind me my St. Peter stories. But the first time I walked in there I looked up at it, and on the left, I believe, or on the right, doesn't matter, there are two statues, and one of them is of Saint Peter and the other is of Saint Paul. Those are the two apostles who they decided to put in huge form in front of Saint Peter's, and they are the ones that are on the left and right of Christ on, you know, on the top of most depictions. Saint Peter betrayed Christ 3 times when he was being carted off by the Roman authorities to be executed. As he prophesied, Saint Peter denied him. The Roman authorities said, do you know who this person is? He said no. Do you know who this person is? Second time he said no. Do you know who this person is? Third time he said no. He betrayed Christ. Saint Paul was a Christian persecutor. He went all around the Roman Empire and killed and imprisoned and harassed Christians. And then he had a road to Damascus moment, which, by the way, interestingly, wasn't so much on his own volition or his own merit. Saint Peter repented after he betrayed Christ. It says that he wept bitterly, and that's why Christ forgave him. Saint Paul was out there persecuting Christians, and then Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus and said, I want to turn you around. And I think there's something really significant there. It gives you a place to go. You are never too far out of God's reach. And I don't know what sins you've committed. I don't ask you to share them, though I would imagine they're quite small because I know you very well and you're a very honorable person. You've shown that time and time again. But what I do know is that no matter how gravely you've sinned, you've never betrayed Christ at his hour of crucifixion, and you haven't been persecuting Christians. In other words, if they can turn it around and become apostles, you are not out of the reach of God's love because of your sinning. Makes sense?

Yeah, no, I don't deny that. And I want to use this opportunity to say the cock crowed.

Yeah, 3 times before the rooster crowed.

But I can legally say that and not get in trouble or bleeped.

Oh my God.

I think about these things.

Evidently.

Yeah, there's such a thing as Catholic guilt, uh, that you grow up—

Oh really?

Yeah, yeah.

Oh boy, I've— I have never encountered that one in my life.

And, uh, I don't deny what you're saying. I did say I struggle with it and I am on a journey. I have not completed that journey and I'm working on it.

Well, there's another thing that I'd like to ask you as a, as a cradle Catholic, and I'm sure a lot of Christian listeners may take issue with what I'm about to say, and I sincerely don't mean it in any kind of disrespectful way.

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I have often found, and I hate to say this because I know this is one of the biggest charges levied against Christianity by its haters, and I don't like when these people do this, but I've always found naming Jesus Jesus and referring to Jesus separately, it almost makes Christianity seem polytheistic. The Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I've always struggled a little bit with that. And one of the things that I say, I was actually chatting with a Jew the other day. Uh, I actually had this conversation with Dennis Prager privately, not on Dennis and Julie. And I said, you know, Jesus in the New Testament is God in the Old Testament. It's not a separate, I mean, it is a separate person, but it's not. And I think sometimes people lose that it is God. There is one God. And the way that I've come to understand it and make peace with it is that, you know, the Trinity can sort of be likened to the different roles that you play as an individual. You are, as we open the show, an uncle, a friend, and a son. And, you know, you're Sean. You're still one person, but you're different in your uncle capacity than you are in your friend capacity than you are in a son capacity. Just as God in those three forms is different but is the same one entity. And so when I speak to my Jewish friends, and I'm not— maybe this makes me a bad Christian, I'm not trying to proselytize, I'm really just trying to think this through and understand it— the God of the New Testament is not a different God. And sometimes when we— I get the sense when we refer to him as Jesus, it almost makes it seem like it's a completely separate God and a separate person. And so when I pray or when I talk about the God of the New Testament, I prefer to call him God instead of Jesus. Because for me, it orients me to the fact that it is still the same being. I guess I don't have a problem with calling him Jesus because it's sort of like your nieces and nephews call you Uncle Sean, whereas I call you Sean. Like it's sort of, reflecting a different role that you're playing. But I don't know, it's something that I've kind of struggled with. What do you think?

There's so much here to unpack, and I now— I know what it feels like to not have a topic and then all of a sudden get off on a tangent.

I know Sean was a little worried before the show. He's like, we don't have a topic.

I'm like, a little? I was very worried.

Trust me, it'll be fine.

Okay, okay. So I don't know if I can unpack all that. Growing up Catholic, I never had an issue with the Trinity— the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are one to me, and I don't question it, and it doesn't bother me, and I never really gave it any thought. They are all one entity to me. Now, there are people out there that are sticklers that are going to tell me I'm wrong in some way. Or I remember working with Officer Tatum for a long time, and he had a big issue with that, with the Trinity. With the Trinity. He didn't understand the Trinity.

But he's a Christian, right?

Yes, but being Christian doesn't necessarily—

well, the Trinity is like kind of the whole thing.

It is for Catholics. I don't know that the Trinity is such a big deal for other denominations, uh, and that's where he was coming from. And I know people have an issue, obviously Jews probably have an issue with that as well. I have simplified it in my own mind because I think one of the worst things we have done as humans is fight over religion. I think that negates the whole point of believing in God.

Well, you've said this before, and forgive me for interrupting. I mean, obviously I hate any kind of violence and fighting. I think the Protestant-Catholic fighting has been totally stupid. By the way, I was at a wedding this summer, I was sitting next to a Protestant, and she said, oh, I can't wait for the culture wars in America to be over so that Protestants and Catholics can get back to fighting one another.

It would be nice.

I thought that was so funny, but I feel like with Christianity and other religions that are very different from some of the tenets of the Judeo-Christian value system, like very radically different in its treatment of people and its vision of the world, I can understand that religious fighting.

Well, there's a, there's a school of thought that the Old Testament Judaism is the original. And then Catholicism is a break-off of that. And then what Protestantism and, uh, other versions of Christianity are break-offs of Catholicism. So you get this infighting, right, where Catholics think that Christians aren't Catholic enough, and Christians think Catholics are. I just think the whole thing's silly. I don't know. I don't have any factual basis for that. And I'm— there are people that are very involved in their faith and very, uh, stickler-ish. Can I use that as a word? And want to tell other people how to believe, right? And I have a hard time with that. I don't think that's the point. I think Jesus walked this earth and the stories that were told in the New Testament are examples of how we should live our lives, right? And I can't see Jesus telling other people how to believe. Now, somebody is going to tell me, well, he did this and this and this and this and this and this. Okay. I can't. I can't. I'm not a theologian. I'm not a priest. I don't know all this. I'm just telling you from my perspective that I believe in God and I believe it's more important for people to believe in God than to tell other people how to live and how to judge.

Have you ever had an encounter with God or a vision of God?

Yes. Now, this you want to talk about?

No, I just asked it for a very personal thing. Okay, well, you don't have to share, obviously, if you don't.

I can share it. I've shared it with, uh, people before. I was in Israel and we were on a tour at one of the temples where they believe Jesus spoke as a rabbi. And they were building a new monument/museum there on what amounted to be a chapel with the glass in the background and a ship, and it looks like it's floating on the water. And underneath was something that looked like a wine cellar or a tomb.

That sounds pretty Catholic.

So this story is kind of involved. We were on a bus. That's how they do these tours. You, they have, of course, 9, 10 buses full of people that are all a part of the same group, and you go on separate buses to these different locations. And we happened to be on, uh, the bus with one of the CEOs of Salem, uh, and it was my first time meeting him, and he felt obligated on that trip to make sure that we had what it took to facilitate communion— wine and bread— when we reached this chapel. And we were in that—

is he Catholic?—

wine cellar. I assume so. Uh, and we didn't have it. We didn't have one part of it. We didn't have the, the wine, or we didn't have the bread. And he was freaking out about this on the bus, to the extent that he freaks out. I don't know, that's He was worried about it and he was trying to procure these things so that we had them so we could have that experience of having communion in that chapel on the tour. And somehow, one way or another, he managed to get those things because when we got there, one of the priests on site had the stuff and said, oh yes, I'll get it for you. And so we had communion underneath this chapel. At this holy site where Jesus had once spoke. And in the Catholic Mass, there's a point where you're about to receive communion and you say, "I am not worthy to receive you." Only say the words and I shall be healed. Butchering it. But when it came time for me to receive communion, I could not finish that sentence verbally. I got to a point where, Lord, I'm not worthy to receive you, and I couldn't finish the sentence verbally. And I sat down and I was frozen and overcome. With all I can describe as emotion and what I perceived to be the presence of God. I was weeping. I was blubbering. I lost track of time. And when I came to, there was a hand on my shoulder and the room was empty. And it was the same guy who had tried to procure communion for everyone handing me a tissue. I to this day don't know how to put it to words, what I felt and what I experienced. But that was God telling me, you are worthy to receive me. Just say the words and I shall be healed.

And you shall be healed.

I cried last time. I said I wasn't going to cry this time, but this was, this was a profound moment in my life. And I walked out of that chapel into the sunlight, and a woman that I didn't even know, a redhead, was staring at me, and she said, you look like you need a hug. Oh, and she gave me the best hug I've ever had in my life.

Oh. Sweet.

It was a life-changing moment. So you asked in there, that was my experience.

Why was it life-changing?

Because I had fallen away from the Catholic Church, and in the eyes of my grandparents and my parents and in my own mind, I was a sinner, not worthy. And I'm not a perfect human being. I did a lot of stupid stuff in my life, but I had worked hard to turn it around. And at that point in my life, it was, it was like God saying, it's okay. You belong here. You're worthy. You know, stop beating yourself up over this.

I love asking people that question. I can't tell you how interesting the responses are. In fact, I would like to create a like an adult picture book, sort of like one of those children's book books but for adults, and just ask people this question: have you ever had a vision of or an encounter with God? And hear their responses. And what I often find is that one person's experience kind of corroborates another one's and sheds light on another one's, and then you kind of piece it together and it reveals a very similar thing that's very much in accordance with the Gospels. I'm so happy that you had that experience.

It's also important to know about me— I don't believe in ghosts, and I don't believe in wacky explanations for things. If I— I'm very much like, uh, who was it that had to stick their finger in the wound?

Thomas.

I'm a Doubting Thomas.

Yeah.

Um, And I've never had any kind of experience like that in my life. So it was, it was special for a lot of reasons.

But, uh, I wonder if Dennis— I, I think I've asked him this before— I don't think he's ever had what he would deem to be a direct encounter or a vision of God. I think he's someone that's just sort of on a daily basis feels a strong connection with God, you know, I think we, we talked about this on a Dennis and Julie. I would be surprised if we haven't. I don't know if there's any topic that we haven't traversed.

If I remember correctly, you have, and I would think his answer would be no.

Well, I think, I think that's a main difference between Jews and Christians in the Old Testament and the New Testament, where the whole point of the New Testament is to make God very personal, to literally have God take on our human flesh and to interact with us. And it's very humanizing. And I think both concepts of God are needed. I think we need the— not that God in the Old Testament is purely strict and impersonal, but he's not a human being, you know, wiping tears and healing sick and, you know, and all that. So, I think we need the more disciplinarian awe-inspiring God. Well, of course it's awe-inspiring in the New Testament, but what's the word I'm looking for? Um, referential. Well, that's another bad one because of course in the New Testament—

but you know what I mean, like there's a push to have Jesus be your friend and hold your hand. And well, yeah, that's— I, I don't go that far.

What I'm trying to say is that in the New Testament, God is more— is personal.

Yeah.

And so I think it's more common for Christians to have those those visions or those personal encounters, if you will, with God. I'm not saying that God doesn't do, do that for non-Christians, but maybe Christians more so see that and experience that because that's their God. It's the highly personal God.

Yeah. There's also been an effort to strip God and Jesus of his manhood.

Oh geez.

I'm good friends with Frank Sontag and his whole ministry.

How is he?

Kingdom Men's Gathering. I hope Frank's doing well. I haven't seen him in a bit. We text every now and then, uh, usually when the Browns lose. But that's the whole push. You have this image of Jesus holding a lamb and nurturing and loving, and whereas Jesus the protector who stands in the doorway and the gate and keeps people from the flock.

How do you feel about the depictions of Jesus as a bearded, long-haired—

well, you and I talked about a week ago and I explained this to you. I don't get caught up in that. I don't. It doesn't matter to me. See, it has nothing to do with my faith in God.

People may find to be offensive, and I'm sorry, but it's the truth. I don't like those depictions. I feel like it makes him look unserious. Forgive me, forgive me please. I feel like it makes him look like he's going to Burning Man.

Well, they're just depictions.

I know, but like, he looks like he's going to— I'm sorry, I know people are gonna hate me for saying that, but I really don't like those depictions because for people on the outside, and again, I'm kind of a dog with a bone with this one because in my generation, and I've personally I've experienced this, I've witnessed this countless times. People have such distance from religion and such hostility to it. And I don't like— and a lot of that is on them, hear me, a lot of that is on them. But I don't like things that make it more difficult and make it seem— make it, you know, Dennis and I talk a lot about this. I bring this up all the time that I don't like Christians or conservatives or anybody succumbing to the stereotype that the other side has of them. Again, I'm going to kick this. I'm just ticking people off today. But when Kristi Noem shot her dog and wrote about it in her autobiography, I wanted to shake her and go, honey, first of all, why are you shooting your dog? Second, if you're going to do that, don't put it in your autobiography because it confirms the stereotype that, that mostly the other side has wrongfully of conservatives that were these gun-toting, you know, crazy people. And when it comes to the depictions of Jesus, and he's the long hair and the beard and his, you know, wrap is white and waving, I feel like it sort of looks like he's going to Burning Man. I feel like it makes him look unserious and it makes in turn this very sophisticated and serious thing look the opposite.

What would you have him look like?

You know what? I knew that question was coming and I don't know. I get why he looks that way. I don't know if I'd have him in a, like, clean-shaven in a tux. I don't know, but I'm sure there's some kind of middle ground.

I just, I don't see how it can distract you from your faith.

It doesn't distract me from my faith.

Yeah.

I'm just so intent on helping people my age see that this is something that is very deep and sophisticated and dazzling and helpful and principled. And I just know that that's a barrier. Sorry.

Yeah, well, I, I can say this. I am not down with, uh, the PC-ification of the church. Uh, they've been doing that in the Catholic Church, rewriting the the, the words that you say in the prayers. And I would be old school. I almost— I think I would prefer to have the mass in Latin. I think I'd be okay with the tradition of that. I think that if we keep— and who am I? Who am I to say this? I don't go to church every Sunday. So this— keep that in mind as I say this. I'm not being critical. I just think that's a bad trend.

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To try to— I think it goes along the lines of what you're saying, that as we keep putting our hands in the, in the cookie jar of the way Jesus is perceived or the way the Mass is said, We continue to take it away from the holy and make it more human.

Yeah.

And that's not eloquent, but make it more madly, too. You know what I'm saying? I like— I just said, you know what I'm saying?

Like, don't be self-conscious.

I'm not self-conscious. I just— I hate when people say like, or you know what I'm saying, or or the phrase me personally before somebody says something. Like, I'll assume it's you 'cause your mouth is moving. You don't need to say me personally.

You know what my mom sometimes flags for me? My mom is so eloquent and she's a wordsmith and I'm the beneficiary of her exactitude. And she will direct me against saying honestly because it's like, well, were you being dishonest?

Right.

All the other times. Yeah.

No, that's another good one.

And those things, when you eliminate them, they, They're important. They, they amount to something. But anyway, back to the PC-ification of the church.

Gosh, yeah, most holy people I've met in life are very calm people, very undisturbed people, very not caught in the trappings of the daily, not of this world, which has become a burden. No, but you know what I'm saying? Like, their faith is so deep to them, they are so steeped in their faith that this world does not distract them from that. So I think even our conversation right now is an example of fluff.

Really? Well, that's a great PR endorsement of this hour. Hey everybody, listen to Julie and Sean.

I didn't say it has been interesting.

I think that pretty deep. I think it's been—

it's thought-provoking. But I, I just— you know that. You—

I know what?

The deepest people you've met, aren't they calm people?

Yeah, but what does that have to do with the fact that what we've been talking about as well—

they don't get caught up in the trappings, the chatter, the—

but I don't think this is trappings and chatter. I think that they think these things through.

Yes, I think they've thought them through too, and they've decided they don't matter.

They, I'm sorry, they meaning what?

Like what a painting of Jesus may look like doesn't matter to them.

Okay. Again, it doesn't preclude me from taking my faith seriously.

No, I'm not personally coming at you.

I think it's a turnoff for people who are looking from afar.

It's a larger discussion that you triggered and I'm not coming at you. It's a valid complaints.

You can come at me.

I just feel like—

I know what you're saying.

This world is full of distraction.

Yeah.

And we have exponentially added to that distraction with social media and, and everyone producing and thinking that their opinion matters and must be shared at all times.

Oh, you know, I talk about that all the time.

Whereas there's probably a monk on a hill somewhere that has never commented or liked or looked at a YouTube video and probably leaves the most peaceful, serene life, of course, on their way to heaven that anyone could live. And I think there's a lesson in that.

Well, I may be going against what you're saying now, but something I have been thinking a lot about is this idea of sola scriptura, which is— was really the— not invention, but the term was the— was coined by Martin Luther. And it means scripture only. And that was the basis of Protestantism then and Lutheranism. Sola Scriptura, sola fide. Scripture only and faith only. In other words, this was coming at a time in 1517 when Martin Luther nailed the 95 Theses to the Wittenberg church in Germany. I only know that because I wanted to go there when I was in Germany, being the nerd I am. And see it, because it changed everything. I mean, America would not be America without the Protestant Reformation. Anyway, that's neither here nor there insofar as my point. Martin Luther was coming up during a time when the medieval Catholic Church was like the modern-day Democratic Party. It was bloated, it was corrupt, and I mean indulgence, it was just like, it was, it was, it bad need of reform. And one of the main things that Martin Luther, and I think this is very noble, held is that you don't need all these superfluous things. You don't need priests, you don't need these ornate cathedrals, you don't need the rosary, you don't need all this stuff to have a connection with God. It's sola fide, sola scriptura. And when I go into a lot of Protestant churches, I see that the— and not all, but most— it's very barren. It's very simple. They don't have a crucifix. You know, it's one of the most famous things. It's a cross. There isn't the same ornateness in art. And I've just been thinking a lot about this because I admire this idea of sola scriptura. And I think that's where the focus needs to be, not on all the rest, but on scripture and on your faith. But I think, I don't know if I'm a sola scriptura person. I think the other things that are not sola scriptura are vehicles for us to connect with God. I think they need to be rooted in scripture. But for instance, the rosary, the rosary isn't, you know, outlined in the Gospel of Matthew or the Psalms or, you know, any of that. But it's reciting the Annunciation. And it's a way to have a kind of direction in your prayer. Even, you know, I was thinking, a lot of Protestants are, because they're Protestants, are sola scriptura Christians. Is having a Christmas tree sola scriptura?

No.

No. So what, and the argument would be, well, we don't need You know, we don't need a Christmas tree to celebrate Christmas. Okay, you don't need a Christmas tree, but the Christmas tree elevates Christmas. I think that's actually a really good example. And I, I would love for people to challenge me. You can write into me, let me know your thoughts. But I struggle with this, this idea of sola scriptura because even among those who practice it, and again, I think it's a very noble thing and I think it's the North Star, I do, but nobody is sola scriptura.

I see what you're saying.

How the hell is a Christmas tree sola scriptura?

I think, me personally, that's the ideal. I agree with that, sola scriptura. I, I think— see, I don't want to take away the strategy, but let me, let me finish, let me finish. But I hear your point, and nobody is that. And we are of this world. We live in this world. And no matter— you can strive for that. But I would draw a line between the rosary is one thing, right? Having liturgical dancers and drums in the church is another thing further from that sola scriptura. Do you know what I'm saying? So I think, yes, humanity is ever expanding. And so is the way we express ourselves and our faith. But I think at the core of it, you have to try to preserve the tradition and honor that tradition and not get too far from it with all the extras and strappings and ornaments and bulbs, and it ceases to become a tree.

Agree. I agree with you. And people who substitute that for religion are practicing the very thing that sola scriptura endeavors to go against, and I agree with that. But these extras, if you will, they help you. I mean, we are spiritual beings, but we're also material beings. We need things around us to orient us. A Christmas tree puts us in the holiday spirit. The poinsettias and the whatever the heck else, I can't even name the Christmas decorations. They orient you. I think the rosary orients you. I think walking into a cathedral and seeing beauty and seeing depictions of the apostles and seeing— I mean, oh my God, you go into Saint Peter's and it's like you're in heaven on earth. And I don't view that as superfluous grandiosity. I view that as I go in, I am in the house of God. This is visually orienting me to the profundity of this thing, how spectacular it is. And that, at least to me, allows me to commune with God better than going into a school auditorium and having my, my Mass or my services there. I'm not disparaging those who have their services in a school auditorium. I think it's a beautiful thing. And the whole point is you can commune with God anywhere. But these extra things if they are used in, in tandem and to substantiate your faith, I don't think that they're problems. I think that they're— yeah, I think they're additions.

We've stumbled onto the nut of this episode, and this is where people should weigh in. And we can't be the only ones struggling with this, right? Keeping and, and, and celebrating the tradition that makes religion special versus expanding and living in this world and, and, and all the strappings and distractions that come with that? How do you manage that in your own life?

Yeah, I think the main thing is it shouldn't be—

do you draw a hard line?

But for those who draw a hard line with sola scriptura, my question, and I would seriously like someone to answer it please, is a Christmas tree sola scriptura? Help me explain how that is acceptable in a sola scriptura mindset.

Well, yeah, that's certainly an interesting discussion because you're going to get the— that's not the reason for the season.

I'll tell you another thing. I was talking with Dennis Prager about sola scriptura and he says, I'm a sola scriptura Jew. And I challenged him a little bit and I said, is the Talmud sola scriptura?

Yeah.

You know, I mean, Dennis Prager talks about those questions that God will ask you before you die. And I love them. I think this is soul-enriching. I think this is great. One of them is, why did you not partake in the earthly pleasures? You've heard him talk about this. That isn't sola scriptura. That's not in Numbers or Deuteronomy.

But he's a big believer in that.

In what?

Partaking in life's pleasures.

He is.

Right.

But what I'm saying is that question that he cites as in the— I think it's in the Talmud. Or maybe the Midrash, I don't know, is one of the 5 questions God will ask you before you die. That's not in the Old Testament. And so our faith for many people is not sola scriptura. Anyway, the point is, it's the— Sean's like, no, it's moments like this where I just want to hear Dennis. I know. Well, this is a very Dennis and Julie conversation. It's taking all the thoughts I'm having this holiday season that we're having with regard to Christmas and Christianity and faith and chatting about them.

Yes, us personally. I want to hear what you have to say. I'm totally open to, to your, uh, impressions of what we just talked about and how you deal with it in your own life and whether or not two people that aren't well-versed in religion should even be having a discussion about it.

Well, speak for yourself. I think I'm more well-versed in religion now than I was. I think I've caught up.

To totally pull ourselves from that deepness to a point of distraction, I spent $1,000 on Christmas gifts last night.

Ooh, did any of that—

But I covered everybody.

Including me?

Yes, including you. Really?

Yeah. Oh, I was actually joking. That's so sweet.

Even though you got me nothing for my birthday. Birthday.

Did you get me anything for mine?

I— no, I wasn't saying it was a problem.

Oh, right.

I'm just saying, uh, I figured out, I think, a brilliant way to do it. It's tough, right? You want to get everybody in your life something, and you want it to be personal, but you'd go mad trying to do all that. Or at least a guy would. I think it's maybe easier for— is it easier for women to shop for Christmas than it is for men?

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, you know, I got my mom the best Christmas gift, and I so want to tell you all because I want you all to, to think of it for a female in your life. But she's, she's definitely listening right now, so, so I wanted to do— okay, actually, you know what, wait for— wait, hold on. Yeah, Mom, I know you're watching. Turn down the volume right now and don't listen to this because I want to help people. Don't. Okay. 3, 2, 1. I got her Melania Trump's autobiography.

Autographed?

No, just her autobiography, which came out. I'm telling you, conservative women in your life and who are in your life, you're looking for a gift. Get them that. Go on, John.

I think I'd rather have the audiobook. Does she read it herself? That would be much more interesting.

Hello, I am Melania. That's so funny.

So, yes, right. If you— if it's not personalized, then it just comes across as generic. I didn't want that. But there's a lot of people in your life. When you get to my age, there's a lot of people. There's, there's parents, there's siblings, there's nieces and nephews and all the entrapments of that. But I think as a guy, I figured out a brilliant way to do this.

How?

I am making my own Christmas trail mix with all the things in it that I think would be delicious.

Okay, what up?

And I'm gonna make a big old batch of it.

What are they?

And distribute that along with some other personalized gag gifts that I think will make people laugh. It did. You have no idea how expensive these ingredients are.

Well, what are they?

There's like— like, I can't— the same reason I can't say right now what it is. You could do the same thing.

You could go 3, 2, 1.

Everybody I'm giving a gift to, pause right now. Yeah, that's what you want me to do? Yeah, it's impossible. Anyways, I'm probably dead wrong. I probably have put together a horrific trail mix that no one will want to eat.

I'll be the judge of that.

Because I went through it and I was like, ooh, that's good. Ooh, that's good. Ooh, that's good. I didn't think about the combination of all of it together.

I can't think, like, because there are things that are like, I, I love Goldfish and I love marshmallows. Goldfish and marshmallows together, together, not so good, right? Not so good.

But I did do the salty and the sweet and the cheesy and the caramelly. I probably screwed it up royally, but I got little gift bags and I'm gonna do that and then it should work.

Okay.

And if it doesn't work, I'm a guy. What do you expect?

Yeah, you have that out.

Yeah.

Well, thank you guys so much for joining us today. And, uh, again, I know we say it every week. I know you're wondering about Dennis. He's slowly, slowly improving. It's just as frustrating for me as it is for you. I wish I could just tell you more. But every time, every week that I see him, it's just, you know, incremental improvement. So this is going to be a long, long, long haul to get him back. But keep the faith. Please continue praying for him.

Let's, let's restate what we do know.

Okay.

We know that Dennis fell.

That we do know.

Yes, he fell and that he hit himself and that he had to have surgery to alleviate the inflammation of that injury.

Well, not just the inflammation, the, the trauma, right? Is very bad.

And he's recovering from that surgery and the inflammation. And the hope is that as that continues to proceed, he will regain functions and come back to us as quickly as possible.

Yep. I mean, that's, that's what we know.

That's all we can say.

And I want it to be very serious. And he's slowly climbing back. So please do continue praying for him. But you can email me at julie@julie-hartman.com. I love hearing from you. And as I've indicated, I read a lot of your messages to Dennis. So please do continue to pass them along. And Sean, can they reach you somehow?

No, no, I don't want to talk to you.

If you want to talk to Sean, you can just email me. And thank you, Sean, for joining.

I hope this— I think this resembles something like a Dennis Prager. I think this was great and that you enjoyed it. And that's all we can hope.

That's right. Merry almost Christmas. Happy Hanukkah. Whatever you celebrate, we hope you have a joyful season and we'll see you soon.

Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits 3 ways. 1/3 chooses the dog, 1/3 chooses the stranger, and 1/3 aren't sure. Why? Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions. And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, If There Is No If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality and why Judeo-Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, you are in effect affirming God.

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