Thoughts and Prayers

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hello everyone and welcome to Dennis and Julie. This is about the time when you're used to hearing, hello everyone and welcome to Dennis and Julie, Julie Hartman and Dennis Prager. You know, Jules, isn't it amazing the power of music to get us oriented into a mood? Or maybe you would hear him say, what number is this? He always had those fantastic introductions. But as you know, we are missing the other half of Dennis and Julie today. As many of you probably know by now, on Tuesday, Dennis suffered a terrible fall and he was immediately hospitalized. He entered surgery. and now we are praying for the best possible outcome. I know that so many of you just want information about Dennis's condition, and I promise you that we will be more forthcoming in the coming days with that information as we learn it. But we don't know very much right now. What I will say though is that tragically, this is not a he will be back next week situation. This is a long haul and a long recovery for Dennis. And that is why I humbly ask you for your prayers. So many of you, Dennis and Julie listeners, Fireside Chat listeners, Dennis Prager Radio Show listeners, people from all walks of life and all faiths have written the most gracious messages to Sue, Dennis's wife, to me, to Sean, to Alan Estrin, and to Dennis's extended family members. With your support and your promises of prayer. And I just want you to know how much all of us deeply appreciate those messages. And although the situation is quite somber, they do seem to be working. Since Tuesday, every single day we have seen modest improvements, modest but nevertheless improvements. And, you know, it's kind of funny because this subject of prayer is a very Dennis and Julie-like topic. In fact, I think that we recently did an episode discussing the power of prayer, and that was something that always kind of plagued me. I never understood how prayers work, how they accord with our free will, the extent to which God gives credence to prayers. And this is something, as I had just indicated, that Dennis and I talk about. But I remember this summer I was in Rome on a spiritual immersion boot camp, and I was speaking with a Catholic priest who gave me what I thought was a really satisfying answer about prayer that I want to share with you. He said, God does not want slaves. God wants to interact with our free will. He wants us to be active participants in creation. And he said to me, you know, if an outcome is right here, perhaps with the power of prayer, again, with God interacting with our free will, we may be able to move the outcome maybe over to something like right here. And I thought that that was a really satisfying answer, that God does want to interact with our free will. And of course, if there is anyone is deserving of our prayers. If there is anyone who has racked a lot of points up in the God category, it is our dear friend Dennis Prager. And I also want to say that as hard as this has been to those of us who are really close with Dennis and know him personally, I also recognize that this is very difficult for so many of you who have listened to Dennis for years and just want to know if he is okay. And people come up to me all the time, or they email me and they say, my gosh, Julie, you're so lucky to work with such a legend, such a giant of a man, literally and figuratively. And they often say to me, I feel like I know him and I know I don't know him because I've never met him. And I said, no, no, no. I always say this to people. I say, no, no, no, you do know him. He is exactly the same person on the air as he is off the air. And so to all of you who have been following Dennis for some time, you know that man who sits right across from me. And you know that he would want all of us to continue to live our lives with joy, to not despair. As he often says on Dennis and Julie, to despair is a sin. And I know that Dennis would be so moved by your messages of support and prayer. So thank you again from the bottom of our hearts for those lovely messages of support. Now, many of you know that we've been doing Dennis and Julie for 2 and a half years now. We launched this show out of my senior year dorm room in college. And this whole journey started for me when I was a sophomore in college and I was disillusioned with the infiltration of leftism on my campus. Into the minds of people who I thought I respected. That was the infamous COVID and Black Lives Matter summer. And it really all began with, I think, divine providence that I encountered PragerU online. And I ordered this book right here. You can still see my underlines here in this book, Still the Best Hope, the book on the American value system. And since then, through working with Dennis for 4 years, I have been the beneficiary of his incredible wisdom. And it's amazing in a time like this to actually know what Dennis would say to us for how we should think and act in the midst of such tragic news about his health. And so today I wanna pull 3 clips for you, 3 highlights of Dennis and Julie. And the first one, which you'll hear right now, pertains to this very subject. Dennis said, and I know this from knowing him so well to be true. As I said, he's the same person on the air as he is off the air, that he knows that he is not immune to life's tragedies. And I think he gives really good instruction of how we ought to process something like this. So please take a listen, and you know you can always email me at julie@julie-hartman.com.

I suspect that much of the pain of life And I'm thinking aloud, really, and I may be wrong, in fact, but I think much of life's pain comes from surprise. Hmm. See, that is why I wrote in my happiness book, 1999, and of course if it's in my book, that means I was talking about it well before that. I, I have so often said, when you understand that human nature is not basically good, you are far better prepared for the hurts of life from other people than if you think people are basically good, right? A— well, which goes to your superb point that you've said to me privately, how the pursuit of truth is so liberating. Or I don't know if that's the word to use, but that's essentially— but I, but I don't want to get sidetracked. This is really important. I, I wrote a book in my 20s, maybe I was 30, maybe I was 30. About antisemitism. It's called Why the Jews. It's in its third edition. It's still in print. Simon Schuster publisher.

It's amazing.

It is amazing.

Simon Schuster.

I mean, yes, that's right.

That is the fact that it's still in print. The fact you were when you were 30, third edition. Yeah.

Yes.

It's really amazing. Kudos.

Thank you. And my co-author and I, we we explained antisemitism, that it's unique. Of all the hatreds of the world, there are so many hatreds. Koreans don't like the Japanese. The Japanese don't like the Chinese. I mean, that's it. We did a list of that last night.

We did a list of that last night.

Yes, it's endless. Endless.

Turks hate Greeks.

Colombians don't like Ecuadorians. I mean, it's endless. But nobody wants to eradicate the other groups. It would— it doesn't occur to people, we're going to wipe out every member and their country, every member of that group and the country. But that is antisemitism. It is exterminationist in its hatred. So it depressed me the events of October 7th, 2023. But it didn't surprise me. And I realize that that enables me to handle it a little better.

Mm-hmm. That's a very profound point that a lot of pain comes from surprise. I think that you're right about that part. You know, I've talked on the show about how sometimes I obsess about my parents' death. And I think part of the reason why I do that, and it's gotten better, but certainly when I was younger, I would really obsess about it. And I think I'm trying to prepare myself for the day when it comes. And weirdly, I think that my obsession with it has harmed me in the sense that it's prevented me from sometimes enjoying that they're with me and it's made me worried about things that I can't control. But I do think When that day comes, and may it be a long time from now, I think I will be more prepared for it because I have thought about it and it certainly won't be a surprise.

Yes, that's, that's a perfect example.

Doesn't mean the pain goes away, which I know you're not saying, but I think a large amount of it is the surprise.

That's right. So That's why it's so important to have a realistic understanding of the world. Aside from that's the moral demand made on all of us, it's also for selfish reasons. If you are sort of protected in your— there's Dr. Marmer, our mutual friend, said to me once, Dennis, you have really good shock absorbers. Part of my shock absorbers are that I don't get many shocks.

So this is hard for me to answer because I know the way that I walk through life and it is this is going to go wrong, that is going to go wrong. I'm going to fail at this. This person's going to die. I'm going to lose all my money. I'm going to be homeless and I'm never going to get married. That's kind of the way my mind works. Not all the time, but really, I know, you know, it is. That's my, that's my default. And so Honestly, a lot of the time I'm very pleasantly surprised because I expect things to go very wrong. Do you think most people walk through life with the opposite worldview, that they, that they think that they're immune from losing money, losing a family member, etc.?

I think, I think they do. I think it's a very, very good question, which is why we do Dennis and Julie. Just, okay, I'll, I'll just leave that out there. That's a very good question. I do believe that people tend to think they're immune from what happened to the next guy. There used to be, I think it was in the New York subways because I grew up in New York City, and I think, I know it was in New York. I don't know if it was on the subway or not, but there was, it was sort of, not a sort of, there was a sign and it said something to this effect, uh, hello, You're the next guy, or you're the other guy. And it was a very profound statement. You think, oh, that happens to the other guy. Hello, you are the other guy. There has never been a moment of my life that I thought that the bad things that happen to other people— early cancer, killed by a drunk driver— I have never for a for a nanosecond thought it couldn't happen to me.

And people think that because they're a good person, they're somehow cosmically immune from the tragedies or the surprises that happen. I think you're right about that. I mean, on this show, it was, I think, one of the best discussions we've ever had. I said to you, and this is part of what I love about this show, apropos of what we were talking about a few minutes ago, how would you describe it to other people? And we really explore things and we learn from one another and we change our minds on the air, which is great that we both allow ourselves to do that because a lot of people would want to have their opinions totally set before they go in the air. But we were open—

Or think it's weak to change their mind.

Right, they think it's weak, exactly. By the way, I want to talk about that actually in light of my former classmates at Harvard having their names published for signing.

I'm very eager to hear your thoughts on that.

Let's put a pin in that and talk about that.

But I want to continue this.

Yes, I do too. So we had a discussion on Dennis and Julie a few episodes ago where I said to you, I think if God forbid one of my parents got hit by a drunk driver tomorrow, I would have a harder time with my faith in God. And your response to me kind of set me straight and was totally right where you said, so if it happens to other people, you don't lose your faith in God, but if it were to happen to you, you would. And that's totally right. And so circling back to this point, we shouldn't think that, oh, that's, you know, those kinds of things just happen to other people. We're just as—

Yeah, you're the other people.

We are the other. Exactly. Yes.

That was that. That's the sign. Yes.

That you are the other person.

Right. Listen, if I told this, you'll know because you're a living Google. Did I mention on a Dennis and Julie episode a speech I gave to a London synagogue? No, I don't think so. Okay, good. I didn't think so, but I can't remember. I do a lot of speaking. So years ago, I was the speaker at a London synagogue, an Orthodox synagogue, and then it was time for questions and answers, and a man gets up, and since I talked about theology, he asked a theological question, and he said, I'm curious, Mr. Prager, How do you explain a Jew who is religious and who is a good person and who keeps the Sabbath and who prays every day and keeps kosher and gets cancer at 45 years of age? I don't know what example he picked, but something like that. And I admit it's hard to shock me. But the question shocked me. So I looked at the audience. This is part of the way I have learned so much about human nature, is to ask people what they think. And I said, would you raise your hand if you agree with this gentleman that if you are a religious observant Jew, good person, you are essentially immune from early cancer or early heart attacks? And most of the hands went up. And I looked at them, you know, I felt bad, but I said, why on God's earth do you believe that? On what grounds, given all the people who have done exactly what you've said and did have cancer and did get an early heart attack?

Well, again, it's this idea, I'm a spectacularly good person. I'm very absurd. I really, it's where it's kind of the intentions rule all. I think people tend to think, well, and by the way, I'm saying this as someone who at times and moments in my life have indulged similar ideas, right? And indulged in similar ideas. My intentions are so pure. I really want to do right by everyone around me.

And you do. I know.

So maybe I am a little bit immune.

Do you feel that now?

No, I don't.

You've completely extirpated it from your conscience?

I can't say completely. No, I can't say completely.

I have completely.

I believe that. I believe that. But I also believe it's taken you years to do that.

Nope.

Oh, really?

I will tell you, at a very early age, I have only— I'll tell you what is recent. Relatively recently, I have realized how rational I am and how atypical that is among human beings.

It really is true. Dennis has a kind of preternatural rationality and joy, I would say, as well. Coming up in just a few moments, we have another clip. This is one of my favorites from Dennis and Julie when we're talking about how Judaism and Christianity complement one another.

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Those of you who've been listening to Dennis and Julie for some time know that the main thing that Dennis and I love to talk about is religion, because of course, in addition to this book on the American value system, when I first encountered Dennis, I was enthralled with his Torah commentary. He really facilitated a belief in and a love of God for me. This clip you're about to see is perhaps my favorite of our many discussions about religion on Dennis and Julie. Dennis, despite being one of the most prominent Jews in America, often talks about how he has a, quote, love affair with America's Christians. And it is so true. He loves America's Christians. And in this clip, We talk about how the Christian and the Jewish faiths really complement one another. And that's one of the things that is so unique, I think, about Dennis and Julie. We have younger and older, male and female, and Christian and Jewish differences, and we can come together and have these very, very rich discussions. Enjoy.

We're going to start judging people by what they say privately. Oh man, we're all screwed.

Oh yeah, everybody's screwed. Everybody, everybody's screwed.

Well, you, you— that means you can never vent to your wife or your husband. You have to watch every word you say to your wife or husband about anything you think about. You can't, because you will be recorded.

Well, that's this— oh my God, this is a Dennis and Julie episode unto its own because when people vent in private, a lot of the times they are going to say something that is wildly exaggerated, you know, because every, every human being knows this. When you're mad at your boss or you're mad at your, your friend or your spouse, you know, you go, this person is such a blank, a blank, you know, sometimes you just have to let it out.

Or how about, I feel like killing him.

Yes.

You're— oh, really?

Of course.

Are you, are you really gonna do it? Of course not.

But there's no, there's no this whole privacy point is so important. And another, I mean, the biggest example of it is that we now on college campuses, and not just on college campuses, but in the workplace, just generally in American society, people's opinions are taken to be their affirmative stances. For perpetuity on the subject. And I remember in college, all of us sort of felt like if we were in a discussion, you had to be really careful about what you said, because then you would be understood as the person who believed what it is that you said about the subject. And yes, of course, you have to stand by your words. But this is the thing I am so adamant about. I wish I could scream it from the rooftops. Part of growing intellectually is saying something that actually you may not fully believe, but kind of throwing it out there and testing it. You know how many times on Dennis and Julie, let me just tell you, I have had like a, you know, 80% of the way there theory about something or a 90% or even like a 60% of the way there. And you know what I've done? I've said, I've been thinking about this lately. I'd like to offer it for your consideration. I've thrown it out here and we've bounced it off each other. And maybe by the end of the episode, I'm a little different. Now, people ask me all the time, why do you put your face on the internet at 24? What if your beliefs change and then your face is on the internet having said things that you don't no longer believe? You know, my response to them is, okay, then my face is on the internet saying things that I no longer believe. Big whoop. Am I not allowed to evolve? How do you evolve without pushing the boundaries a bit?

The reason that I'm silent and smiling is because I so deeply relate to that. And, and, okay, this is gonna— this will tick people off— that you have realized this at your age is very impressive.

But I don't fear the cancel culture mob. I don't, I don't fear them because— guess what? That is such a good point. It is all fear.

It's all fear. I have all of my life, I have taken risks with positions.

Yes.

With ideas, with behavior. Do you know How nervous I was, and I very rarely get nervous. I mean, if you told me I would speak to 40 million people, I, you know, I could eat an apple while doing it. It has no effect. But I was really nervous the first time I conducted an orchestra. I am not a professional musician. I am an avid amateur. I have obviously somewhat accomplished or couldn't have happened, but I knew every one of those musicians is a pro and I'm not.

Yes.

And a fully rational decision might have been, Dennis, keep conducting your audio system. Don't stand in front of real musicians and conduct. That would have been a much more rational thing All of my life has been the risk-taking. Oh, you'll love this. Oh, this is one of my favorite stories. At the age of 24, your age, I said to Joseph Telushkin, also 24— we've known each other since high school— said, Joseph, you know, wherever I go— I had already begun giving speeches— and, and I said, I get the same questions because then my speeches were within Jewish life. And I said, I get, Joseph, I get the same questions. We should write a brochure answering the questions people have about Judaism. A brochure. I thought we could do it over a weekend. Anyway, we ended up writing a 200-something page book.

I love it.

And it took, it took 2 years, but it doesn't matter. That's not the point I'm making. Here's the point. So Joseph tells his mother— he was very close to his late mom, he was a very special woman— that, you know, Ma, Dennis and I want to write a book, an introduction to Judaism. Her reaction was a completely rational one. She said, Joseph, you two are 24 years old. Some of the finest rabbinic minds have written introductions to Judaism. What are you going to say that they didn't? So Joseph came back to me and he goes, Dennis, what do I tell my mother? And I said, tell your mother that we will write the best introduction to Judaism, at least in English, that has been written. That has been written.

I love that story.

And it turned out we did. It's still in print 45 years later. And it's the best-selling introduction to Judaism in the English language, and it deserves to be. But it was a risk. I'll tell you how big a risk. We published it because—

yeah, that's right.

And so it was money out of our pockets to publish it, to typeset it, to print it, to bind it, to select the paper. It was, it was, and we were, neither of us was rich to say the least. It was a risk to, to conduct the orchestra. So many of the things I've written were risks. Just what you're saying, I threw out ideas and I knew when I wrote it I might be wrong, but how am I going to know it if I don't get feedback?

Absolutely. It's It's so true. It's like I learn the most from when I say something and when I throw something out there and I was partially wrong or I didn't consider something and someone pointed it out to me. Those things are seared in my memory and that is what has allowed me to grow. It's just so sad now that the amount of sludge that is thrown at people. I mean, I remember when I was starting this job, people said to me, you're crazy. You're crazy. Why would you put your face on the internet saying these incredibly controversial things? Let's say you fail at it. You know, Goldman Sachs isn't gonna hire you. Not that I wanna be hired by Goldman Sachs, just for the record.

But people would say to me— No, no, but that's right. It's a perfect example. They would go, no, no, not even, what if you're wrong?

Yeah.

What if you say something that really hurts you?

Well, totally. But people would say, that, you know, there are so many places that won't hire you. You know, there are people who won't want to associate with you. And my response to them was, you're right. And that's true right now. I mean, if I decide to pivot and I'm not pivoting, I'm, I'm staying right here. But if I ever decide to, to pivot, there are a lot of places that won't hire me.

That's right.

Of course, because of what I've done. There are a lot of, you know, there already are.

All you need to know is, so Dennis Prager, who exactly was the dad?

I'll be like, oh, we can keep that detail private for now. But are you telling me that even if that's the case, that this wasn't worth it? Of course this was and is worth it. Not even a bleeping question the lesson here.

Okay, go.

No, I'll just say quickly, I think I want to hear what you think the lesson is, but I think the lesson is don't fear not only woke cancel culture, because that was the genesis of this discussion that people fear in class pushing the boundaries, but sort of like life cancel culture.

That's right.

Failure.

That's right. That was it. You took the words. I'm glad I didn't interrupt.

You were going to say life cancel culture?

No, I was going to say Don't fear failure.

Yeah.

You won't succeed if you fear failing. It may even sound like a cliché. I'll live with that. But that's— that is the answer. I'll tell you, by the way, there are times I did get in trouble.

There have been times I've gotten in trouble too. Well, so what are you referring to? I mean, the Quran thing?

Yeah. I mean, I—

That doesn't mean you were wrong. I don't think you were wrong on that.

Well, I was wrong with one line.

What did you say?

There was one line in my essay that I wish I had not written. The essay was, well, for those who don't know, this is, how many years ago was that? 15 years ago? When Keith Ellison was, he's now Attorney General of Minnesota. He's a left-wing Democrat and he was congressman. He was a congressman from Minnesota, and he was going to take his oath on the Quran. And I, and it would have been, I think it was going to be the first time that a congressman or senator or president was not going to use the Bible. I know that there were a few cases of presidents, like for example Teddy Roosevelt, after McKinley was assassinated, they couldn't find a Bible. Or one president thought that it's sacrilegious to use the Bible.

But really, who?

An early president. I don't remember. Yeah, it was an interesting thing. He thought this is a secular role, president. So I don't want to confuse the two, but it was out of reverence to the Bible. It was not out of rejecting it.

I see.

Nobody has ever rejected it. So he says, I'm not doing the Bible, I'm doing the Koran. And I wrote I wrote that as far as oaths are concerned, the Bible is America's book and has always been. And I even said I don't believe in the New Testament. That is not my Bible. That is the Christian Bible.

Right.

But I would take an oath if I were elected. I would take an oath on the Bible, which includes the Old and New Testament.

Because this is our civilization.

This is my civilization. It's— I am honoring my society. That is correct. The people who made the freest country in the world believed in the Old and the New Testaments. So I honor them by doing it. You should honor them. And I even said I have such great admiration for Mormons. I wrote that in my column. But if a Mormon said, I'm not going to use the Bible, I'll only use the Book of Mormon, I would have objected then too. This has nothing to do with your being Muslim. But I did, and everything I wrote is legit. But I got in trouble for one line. Oh no, he should not be allowed to do it, I wrote. And, and that—

okay, that was wrong.

It was, it was wrong, right? But okay, of course. But look, no, but I'm on the right. I'm attacking a guy who's in a— he's a, he's a member of two victim groups. Black and Muslim. And here I am, white Jew, saying that? Oh man.

No, what you got, the flak that you got for it, in my opinion, was undeserved. I mean, I was like 5 years old, so I don't remember this, but I'm saying, you know, learning about it in recent years, I think that that was really unfair.

There was a saying, You didn't grow up with this. Most, most people didn't, or at least not in the, in the last, since the post-World War II era. I think earlier people did. I don't even think, I wonder, I don't even think, and I was gonna say, I wonder how many of your classmates at Harvard would even know the definition of the word aphorism. Do you think they would? I'm not trying to—

I didn't learn it until after college.

The word aphorism?

No, I didn't.

Okay, so that— okay, perfect.

And I only—

I grew up on aphorisms.

These are such gems.

Oh, they, they shaped my life. So here's an example. Most of them were Jewish aphorisms. And, and here's the one. It is from the Talmud, the second holiest work in Judaism after the Bible. And, and it says— I'll say it in Hebrew only because that's how I remember it and because it's fun for people to hear. Lo habaishan lo meit. The easily embarrassed person doesn't learn. Isn't that brilliant?

Okay, Dennis, so often we are in sync without realizing that we're in sync. I have been obsessed lately with aphorisms, and I didn't know about them until after I graduated from college. You want to know the proof that I've been obsessed with them recently? Look what I just pulled out of my bag. I carry this around with me in my bag. It's William Bennett's book. Oh yeah. And by the way, he wrote— I saw the intro to one of your books, or the foreword, excuse me, to one of your books. I think it was Think a Second Time. And this book, everyone, it's—

yeah, he reviewed it.

Oh, want to even know the best part about all of this? A Dennis and Julie listener wrote in to me and told me to read this. Have you heard of it? Yes. I'm carrying it around in my bag right here. It shows you how obsessed I am.

I would love I'd love you to meet him. He's such a good man.

I know he's quite old. I'd love to get him on Timeless. But aphorisms, I am telling you, I mean, I don't need to tell you, but I'm— they—

I have the chills.

They're like the best therapy in the world. Oh, they are the best life instruction. And they are— by the way, this will be a real— this will really tick off the compliment people. This will be a real compliment to you. I think the way that you speak is akin to aphorisms.

Oh, that's true.

You speak in aphorisms.

Yes, I do.

You have a remarkable ability, right?

I agree with you.

We're really hitting the 4 and a half minute mark today, but screw it. Yeah. You have a remarkable ability to say something. I think, yeah.

By the way, the reason that it's not bad for you to say it or me to agree, 'cause it's true. It's a gift. Oh, I don't, I don't take credit for it. That, that's a gift, right? If I could play the piano great, it would be a gift. That's how I think. Can I reduce a complex idea to an aphorism?

You can say something, literally it's like 4 words and it's both so simple and so profound.

That's what aphorisms are.

And that's what aphorisms are. Exactly. Dennis really is such a unique figure because We live in a world where people tend to really cling to their religious groups and can tend to be very tribal about their religious groups. And from the moment I encountered Dennis, I was so impressed by, again, despite being a Jew, how appreciative he was of Christianity and how immersed in Christian life he is. We'll be back in just a few moments with our final highlight video. MyPillow is excited to share an exclusive offer with our listeners right now. The standard MyPillow is available for just $14.88, a savings that's too good to pass up. There's a limit of 10 per customer, so don't wait to take advantage of this great deal now with the promo code Hartman. MyPillow is designed with your comfort in mind. The pillow holds its shape and adapts perfectly to your unique sleep position, helping to keep your neck aligned for the best night's sleep. And there's more. Take home a 4-piece kitchen towel set for only $25. Enjoy their new mattress topper starting starting at just $99.99, or pick up the luxurious MyPillow bed sheets starting at $49.98. Visit mypillow.com or call 1-800-566-6745 and use the promo code Hartman to unlock big discounts. Don't miss out, order today. In our final highlight clip for today, this is one of my favorite videos. I know I say that about almost all of them, but it is true. We are talking about having the courage to be wrong. We live in a world where if you say something, it is taken to be your definitive opinion on that subject in perpetuity, from which you can never evolve. And Dennis and I totally upend that notion in what you're about to watch. I have a little bit of an idea of Judaism and Christianity that I'd like to offer for your and the audience's consideration that I think Deals with this point well. I think that Judaism really complements Christianity and Christianity really complements Judaism because I kind of view, like in parenting, and you, you talk all the time about how teaching your kids self-control is more important than self-esteem, how being a disciplinarian is more important than giving them love, but you do need both. You just, you know, with using the parent analogy, you need to discipline your kids and you need to love them. And if I look at the Old Testament and the New Testament, I kind of look at them them as like the two counterparts. The Old Testament is more, here are, here's kind of the harsh rules of life. I think as we were talking about Nazism and what does it mean to pray for, you know, the Nazis are about to slaughter storming Normandy Beach. I thought about the, what is it? You would probably know it by heart, chapter 14 or 15 of Genesis when Abraham bargains God down with Sodom and Gomorrah, where God is going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because it's an evil place, and Abraham says, right, there are 50 righteous, 40, 30, 20, 10, and they get back downtown. Yes, you know, that's a practical— you learn from the Old Testament, okay, there are going to be some cases where some innocent righteous people are going to have to suffer or, you know, be slaughtered for the greater good of eliminating this evil town. I really love those, those again, realistic principles in the Old Testament that are outlined. The New Testament, I think, is such a beautiful thing because although I, I'm an Old Testament junkie, I love so many of the stories in the Old Testament. There is no story that is more powerful than the story of Christ to me. And the example that it is such a moving, beautiful, powerful story. Of God loving humanity enough to come down in human form, walk alongside us, suffer alongside us, be treated unjustly, you know, alongside us, to heal the sick, to help the poor. And we need that example. That's why I think they complement each other so nicely, because Christianity can get to grace and mercy and pray and love, and you need the kind of harshness of the Old Testament. But the harshness of the Old Testament needs the grace and mercy and example of Christ. And so I know that religion, you can't cherry-pick. I understand that. And frankly, again, in the spirit of honesty, that's a battle that I'm kind of having right now because when I choose a religion, when I choose a denomination, I don't want to just buy it hook, line, and sinker, but I want to— I'm not just— in other words, I'm not just going to cherry-pick from it. I want to really understand and practice it in its entirety. But if I can cherry-pick for a moment, I do think we can take the pray for your enemies part of Christianity and balance it with the exact—

cherry-pick the founders of the United States.

They did. It's a very good—

this is the one Judeo-Christian country that was truly ever founded. These were Christians steeped in the Old Testament. The— as I've said a thousand times, probably The only thing on the Liberty Bell is from the Torah. Harvard, when in its better days, you had to study Hebrew to get a BA till 1800. Yale's insignia is in Hebrew.

I know. So is— oh no, it's in Latin.

Harvard's is in Latin. And this, John Adams said, the people who have most civilized humanity are the Hebrews. We the quotes from the founders with regard to what the Jews have done. Jefferson and Franklin were not even traditional Christians. They didn't believe in the Trinity. They were certainly steeped as cultural Christians. They wanted the Great Seal of the United States to picture, to depict, they even designed it. You could see it on the internet. The Jews leaving Egypt, the Israelites leaving Egypt. The Israelites left Egypt. America leaves Europe. That was the analogy. Hmm. This, this is— this has been— the Christians of America have largely been Judeo-Christians.

Yes.

That's why Jews— my hope is another battle of my life. Well, it was battle number one against the secularization of society. I said Jews who thought they'll be more secure the more secular America is, which a lot of Jews have believed, were foolish beyond words. The reason Jews have had it uniquely good in America is because the Christians of America were so Judeo in their Christianity.

Yes.

And so, as I put it in my column, which anyone can see, including in Jewish journals, not just in the regular press, is when Christians went to When Americans went to church, Jews were more secure. So you— your cherry-pick is possible. Taking from both is a great idea.

Well, that's why I call myself an ethical monotheist. When people ask me, you know, what religion are you? I go, well, I'm an ethical monotheist because I truly consider myself, at least right now in my life, to be Judeo-Christian.

Right. So you could even go further. I'm an ethical monotheist and Bible-based.

Yes. Well, so let me ask you this question, because again, as I said, I really believe that Judaism and Christianity complement each other, and they're the defects of Christianity I think Judaism makes up for, and the defects of Judaism Christianity makes up for. One of the things that I think is so incredible about Christianity is that when you have nowhere else to go, when you feel like you have really gone down a bad path in life and you have, you know, you've sinned and you feel like you're a bad person and you're defective, you can go and, as the Christians say, lay that at Christ's feet and you can be redeemed. And it's this kind of— it's this amazing, beautiful— it is an amazing thing that, that you can go from the dregs of humanity, and if you, if you believe in Christ and you seek that out According to that faith, like in— I'm thinking in terms of paintings— in Botticelli's Nativity, there's, there's an image of these angels taking men, literally grabbing them and hoisting them up from this ground where demons are trying to grab them. And that's how I view Christianity. Like, you can be being dragged down in the mud and you can be redeemed and saved and forgiven. That is amazing. Because we— if there's one thing about human nature that I've observed is that sometimes when you think, I've done poorly, your instinct is not to go, why don't I make it better? Your instinct is to go, well, I've already messed up. I might as well, you know, really say F it and continue into the dregs. I mean, I even notice this when I—

there's no hope for me.

There's no hope for me. I notice this when I eat. I know that's on a really small scale. If I you know, have a big dessert meal, I'll think, oh God, well, I just ruined my whole diet today, or I just ruined my whole exercise. Well, screw it, I'm gonna go eat another cake, and then I'm gonna have cupcake. That's, that's kind of the human mindset. Well, I've already done wrong, I might as well just indulge. And Christianity moves you away from that. Is there a counterpart to that in Judaism? Is there a story or a kind of tenet of the theology that expresses that in the same way that Christianity does?

Yes, and I'll give you examples. It's not as immediate or as central perhaps as it is Christianity. I mean, you could literally step forward and accept Christ that afternoon and that happens. And it does, and it does, it changes. I know that people have changed. I was with a cab driver like 35 years ago in some southern city, and I love talking to strangers, and I was talking to him about his life, and he said, ah, you know, he was about 50-something years old, and he was way older than me, and the, The point he was making was, oh, I led a terrible life. I was drugs and sex and alcohol. I said, and what turned you around? It was Christ. And I believed it. And this Jew knew he was telling me the truth. There was not a doubt in my mind that the man was telling me the truth. Has Judaism turned people around? There's no question, but it's, it's sort of a more laborious process. Are you ready to lose weight but not sure where to start? So I'd like to tell you why I chose PhD Weight Loss and Nutrition. First, Dr. Ashley Lucas has her PhD in chronic disease and sports nutrition. The program is science-based. The PhD program starts with nutrition and is much more. They know 90% of permanent change comes from the mind, and they work on eliminating reasons you gained weight in the first place. There are no shortcuts, no pills, no injections, just solid science, science-based nutrition and behavior change. If you're ready to lose weight for, I think, the last time, call 864-644-1900. 864-644-1900. To get started, or online at myphdweightloss.com. myphdweightloss.com. Just make the appointment for your one-on-one consultation. Call today, 864-644-1900. You, you know, what is it, uh, the, the one of the most famous stories in the Talmud, which is the The great book after the Bible in Judaism. So a pagan comes to two different rabbis, Hillel and Shammai, two giants who always disagreed with each other.

And he goes, so as you say, that's a mitzvah.

Well, it's certainly, I would say it's central to Judaism that you could differ and both be right in certain ways. Eiluva Eilu Divrei Elohim Chayim. They're both speaking the words of the living God. That's the motto. It's a beautiful motto. Anyway, so he asks, he goes to Rabbi Shammai and Rabbi Hillel, different homes, and goes, so what, tell me, explain to me Judaism while standing on one foot. And so Shammai actually hits him with his stick and says, what, are you kidding? I can't explain Judaism standing on one foot. Get out of here. Just not impressive, I must say, but the Talmud records everything that the people said. Goes to Hillel's house, and Hillel says, "Sure, I'll tell you. Do not do to others what you don't want done to you, or do not do what is hateful to you, do not do to others. The rest is commentary. Now go and study." It's a very famous 3-part answer. The essence is, ethical behavior. The rest is commentary. Now go and study. It's a great answer for Jews anyway. But in other words, you, you can't do it if you don't study. You can't just change overnight like that. That, that immediacy that I'm talking about, which does happen to people accepting Christ, I have no doubt about it, like this cab driver. But you're right, that is not the mode of Jewish expression as much. I do want to tell you, though, you— I marvel at you so often, and it brings me incredible joy that you're in my life. As you know, your understanding of that, that the two religions need each other, of course, is very few people Well, a lot of Christians realize it. I don't think as many Jews do, though. I've tried to teach Jews this, this great combination, this Judeo-Christian. There is a rabbi who wrote in the Times of Israel a piece. This is a nonsense term, Judeo-Christian values. By the way, a lot of Christians do that.

I know.

Oh, so there are just as many voices on both sides who don't like that term. And I just hate it. Huh?

The libs hate it.

Oh, yeah, of course. Well, they hate it because they hate both.

Yes, they hate both.

Right. But, but it was— by the way, I looked up this rabbi. I always do that. I'm very curious because I'm almost always right when they have a position that I consider truly absurd. They will have absurd positions on everything. Very few people only have one absurd position. To deny that there are Judeo-Christian values is absurd. It's just absurd. There isn't Judeo-Christian theology, but nobody uses that term. But there are Judeo-Christian values. And sure enough, the guy turns out to be this, a big leftist on every single issue, on every, on trans, on global warming, on every, it's, he's consistent along the line. But I'll give you an example you wouldn't know. Of where they— you hinted at it, but unless, you know, you're not as steeped in Judaism, obviously, as I am.

So not yet, right?

You will be. God bless you. And so Judaism is both particular and universal because it's the chosen people. God chose the Jews and so on. But the whole point is that through you, all the families of the earth will be blessed, as God says to Abraham. Judaism is both. Christianity gave up ethnicity, gave up peoplehood. There's no such thing as a Christian people. There was a Jewish people, a Jewish nation, but there's no such thing as a Christian nation, Christian people. There's a Christian religion. And so Judaism needs the universal mission of Christianity, and Christianity needs to be rooted in a people. And I'll give you one dramatic example.

Make a point.

Oh, well, I said, there couldn't have been a way you would have thought of this. You have to have lived this as I have. But I'll give you a very dramatic example. I got started in public life speaking for Soviet Jewry because Israel sent me into the Soviet Union when I was 21. I knew Russian and Hebrew and Judaism, and so they miraculously, the Foreign Office learned about me through friends in Israel. And anyway, I was sent to the Soviet Union for a month. I came back to the United States and began lecturing 3, 4 times a week about the plight of Soviet Jewry. At the time, virtually every synagogue in America had a sign in the front, Save Soviet Jewry. Now here you will find this will— I know you, when you learn, you get excited.

Oh, it's thrilling.

You will find this fascinating. Virtually every synagogue, Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, had a sign, Save Soviet Jewry, in the front of the synagogue. I don't remember a single church that had Save Soviet Christians, even though Christians were hurt more than Jews in the Soviet Union.

It's a very important point.

Yes, it's because there's no Christian peoplehood. So you, you see, the, the point of life— this is true for all of life— you pay a price for, for your blessings. It is a blessing, the universality of Christianity. But a price was paid because Christians don't, generally speaking, don't care about fellow Christians as much as Jews care about fellow Jews.

That's why I like to cherry-pick, which you're—

I said you should.

I know, I know. And you're—

yeah, that I did.

Yeah. Yes. And you're— and one of the things, as I often say, I love about the introduction of your Bible commentary is that it's not proselytizing. You say, I'm not trying to make you a Jew. I'm not trying to make you a Christian. What I hope is that you will be an ethical monotheist. You will be someone who—

the God of the Bible, the God of the Torah, is the person or the creature, the being you should follow.

You know, this would be the time when I would turn to Dennis and go, how did they reach us, Dennis? And he turned to me and go, by listening to you. And I so wish that we would have that moment right now. And although I am trying very hard to be stoic, I am deeply, deeply sad and I'm worried for him. And again, I want to say that he is improving, but I also want to temper our expectations that he may not be back in front of the microphone for quite some time. But you can count on me here. I am here to continue this show as well as my show Timeless. And as I said at the beginning, you can always email me at julie@julie-hartman.com. And as a request from Sean, in honor of Dennis, I'm obligated to hit the microphone at least once. In fact, I did it 3 times. We'll see you soon. Take care.

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