Using God’s Name

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hello there, all. The weeks go by fast. Once again, Dennis and Julie. Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. Hello everybody, bye everybody, shalom. You know what shalom actually means?

Peace.

Yes, that's right. It's a very interesting word because it's rooted, it's related to the Hebrew word shalem, which means complete.

So I was recently rereading the book that you recommended to me, Mario Pies' The Story of Language, which By the way, I've had listeners of Dennis and Julie email me at julie@julie-hartman.com, by the way. Now I don't have to say it at the end, Sean. And they have ordered that book, even though it's out of print, but you can find it on Amazon. But he had a section on Semitic languages, right? Arabic and Hebrew. And I didn't realize that the The vowels are accents.

The vowels are dots and dashes.

So there are only consonants in Hebrew letters. Wow.

And, and by the way, overwhelmingly in Arabic as well. That's correct.

Arabic is really beautiful to, to look at. Oh, gorgeous.

Fascinating. Well, you know, it's, it's almost a design. Yeah, because it In medieval mosques, for example, the— you don't have to— I, I read Arabic.

But you read Arabic?

You didn't know that? I'm glad you didn't know that.

That's incredible. Wait, really? You, you can read Arabic?

Yeah. Wow. I took Arabic for 3 years. I was at the Middle East Institute.

I can't— the feeling I feel right now of Being so unaccomplished is very overwhelming. I can't speak or write or read anything besides English.

What about music? Because— oh, interesting. I, by the way, I— people should know, if you give your kid a musical instrument, you are so expanding their mind. Yeah, because it is another language. Yeah, it literally— it's another alphabet. It's completely another language, and it's It's to me the greatest language, obviously.

Well, back to the Arabic thing, just quickly, you'll, you'll find this to be interesting. I recently had Spencer Klavan on my show Timeless. We do a Thinker of the Month series or sort of like an Observation of the Month series, which everyone should check out. And recently we were talking about how different religions depict or don't depict God. So, for instance, in Christianity, among Catholics, it's customary to have a crucifix. But among many Protestant denominations, it's viewed as iconography to have a crucifix. So, there's just a cross. In Judaism, and luckily I have you across from me to correct me if I get this wrong, you're not supposed to depict God because God is invisible. And you're not supposed to say Yahweh. But you can depict, you know, biblical figures.

Well, uh, on the, the Yahweh thing, that's correct, by the way. So Jews have actually two steps. It's really amazing. Not only will they not say God's name as is written in the Torah or in the whole Hebrew Bible, uh, it's four letters, and they won't— will never pronounce those four letters. So what they say is Adonai, which means my Lord. Which is why when it has God's proper name from King James on, it's the Lord. The Lord is not the same word as God. Lord is God's personal name, the four letters.

So you're not supposed to say Lord?

You can say Lord. You can't say what— I'm not even saying the four letters.

I thought you just did, and that's not a gotcha, but no, no, Yahweh.

Well, yeah, but that's not how it's pronounced.

Oh, I see.

That's close.

Oh, I see. Well, you know who, um, what, uh, Michael Gottlieb taught me? Um, he taught me that Hashem is, is my God, or the God—

no, the name.

The name. That's what it is.

So that's what I was saying. That's the second degree. So if you're not praying or reading the Bible, you don't even say the substitute Lord, you just say the name. So it's two degrees separation from the actual name.

So can they hear him?

You know, I hope they hear him so that people will appreciate what I have to endure.

What about me?

On a daily basis. You— yeah, but you— I've endured it for decades. You've endured it for a year.

Well, I voluntarily endure it.

How long is Timeless going on?

It's been a— it's been a year and 2 months.

A year and 2 months.

It flies. It really flies.

Yeah. Don't tell me about time flying. Yeah.

But back to Arabic. So there's that crucifix issue, if you will, in Christianity. There's the don't depict God or don't say God's name in Judaism. And in Islam, you are not supposed to have any depictions of God or the Prophet Muhammad or any other figures in the Quran. But this is the point about Arabic. And you're also not supposed to have music in mosques, which differs from Christianity and to an extent differs from Judaism. Yes, you're not supposed to have music. Double check me on that, Sean, but I'm nearly certain that's correct. But you know what? The Arabic calligraphy is sort of the art. And if you look at mosques, for instance, if you look at the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, there's beautiful Arabic calligraphy, you know, circumambulating the structure, and that is the substitute for art. That's supposed to artistically glorify God.

So what raised this issue?

That's a great question. What did raise this issue?

It's fascinating.

Well, you were saying Hebrew or Arabic or something.

No, no, you were talking about Mario Pai Arabic vowels like Hebrew.

Yeah, well, yeah, we got off on a tangent, but I just wanted to bring this, this subject up of the different ways that God is depicted. Or because I had a discussion with, with the Shabbat dinner crew about this a few days ago, and truthfully, I never saw it as a big deal to depict God. I don't mean to disparage those who do view it as a big deal, but I didn't quite understand their reasoning. But I actually think the Shabbat dinner crew kind of convinced me that when you depict God, you're limiting— what they said is you're limiting him.

That's right.

But then again, I know as a—

Well, let's say there were no ban on depicting God in, let's say, Judaism. What would you draw? Since, see, with Jesus, you, you can imagine a human figure. Jesus came as a human, right? So, but no, no Christian— well, I guess Michelangelo in the Sistine Chapel with reaching out to Adam, but, but nobody assumes God is this human with a beard. I mean, and people might, might imitate, right? But nobody seriously imagines that. How would you depict the invisible God? Let us say there were no ban. It's not depictable. It, it's like, how would you draw a black hole? I guess it's the best analogy I could give. We— you just— well, you have a black canvas. Okay, that would be God then.

I know it's very powerful for me to walk into a Catholic church and see the crucifix. Because it immediately orients me with what the central issue is, and the central sacrifice and redemption. So, visually, that's very helpful for me. But as you say, you're right that depicting Christ, who was a human being, is different than depicting God. So, you know, another thing they said at Shabbat dinner was the reason why you don't say the full name of God, we're saying Yahweh, but as you say, it's not the exact thing, is that The name, you know, God is so powerful and so deserving of reverence that you shouldn't use his name superfluously. And that inspired me to kind of look at myself. And I do throw around the term God a lot. I'm sure I've said it. We're 5 minutes into this podcast. I'm sure I've said it. Oh my God, or dear God, or God damn. And I don't view that as disrespecting God. And as you say, one of the commandments which says, do not take the Lord's name in vain, what they mean is not literally the word. They mean don't—

Carry.

Yes, carry the name of God and say you are acting on behalf of God if you are not truly acting on behalf of him. But I think there is something to be said that we do very loosely throw around the term God just in our everyday lives. With, oh my God, goddamn. And maybe, maybe it is a little disrespectful.

Do you want the answer on Islam and music? What's the— okay, so Sean just looked up Islam and music. It's a very complex and controversial— the complex and controversial matter. Many Muslims believe that the Quran and the Sunnah prohibit music, and other Muslims disagree and believe some forms of music are okay. So it's a dispute within the Muslim world. Fine, but I, I, it's true, I, I don't have any association of a mosque with, with music. There is obviously Arabic music.

Well, the call to prayer is, is musical.

That's right, that's right, it is. So what, what were you just saying prior to that?

That when you—

oh yeah, that we use God's name too often. Well, first of all, God isn't God's name. So I always try to explain that to people who say, well, Dennis, when you say 'Oh my God' to a caller, you're using God's name in vain. But God's name isn't God. God has a name. So, and I, I, if, if people did use what people say, let's say Jehovah, that's God's name. It's not the exact way it is in the Torah, for those terribly curious. It's a Y instead of a J. That's how you would— but as a believing Jew, I don't say that name. But Jehovah is very close. So what can I say? I'm a very big believer in gradations of sin.

Oh, definitely.

And I know you—

I don't view it as a sin.

Yeah, well, some do.

I know they do.

There are—

I disagree with them.

Since my beginning of my radio career, I've been getting mail, first mail, now email, of Dennis, you're such a God-centered religious man, how can you say oh my God like that? And first of all, I had never been told that in Jewish religious life. Nobody ever raised the issue. And I realize Christians are much more sensitive to that issue. I respect that. But I do want to make clear, God is in God's name. So if you say, as I would, somebody calls me up and they say, Dennis Prager, let's say we're talking about the loss of a child, because I talk about painful issues on the Happiness Hour, ironically.

Right.

And they will say, well, you know, I lost my daughter in a car crash 2 years ago. And I'll go, oh my God, my heart goes out to you.

So, oh, it's ridiculous to pick on that.

But they would.

I know they would. Yes, I, I disagree. I, I think the, the reason why I'm raising this point is that one of the things I really admire, I've come to admire about Judaism through my exposure to Shabbat dinners and all that, is that With the Sabbath, there's a ritual every week where time is sanctified and you orient your behavior around God. You're not supposed to use, I mean, you drive, but you're not supposed to work. You're not supposed to use a lot of technology. And I—

Well, I wanna make clear, I drive to Shabbat events.

Right.

Synagogue and Shabbat meal.

Right. And you use your phone to pull up something if you wanna show us. But you really try—

But it's always related.

It's always related, yes. To the Shabbat issue, right. But I appreciate that because I think it's important to have not an excess of rituals, but some rituals or things that you abide by in the week, which remind you of God's presence and your obligations to him. And I don't, I at least have not experienced a big counterpart with that in Christianity. Now rituals can go way too far, But the reason I bring up this God issue is that it's just something that I'm trying to consider in my daily life, maybe not using the term God as superfluously as I do in order to give God the appropriate reverence he deserves.

I think it's beautiful. I have no issue with that. Dennis Prager here with a man I have come to admire for his work. So when I asked him, what do you do? This is the title he gave: Wealth Architect.

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I was taken enough and impressed enough to have you do my work, and you have in fact saved me a serious amount of money. CharlesDombek.com/Prager. The ritual issue is, is really one that only of all faiths, maybe on Earth, it's really only Protestant Christianity that is largely ritual-free. Catholicism is not. Judaism is not. Islam is not. Buddhism is not.

What do you make of that?

I don't make anything of it. I'm— I, I don't have a judgment on it. Well, look, I want to fill in that sentence, but I made the point only because I think people will find it interesting. Because everyone— this is the way life works— what you experience, you assume is the norm. When I, you know, when I discovered this, my third year in college, I was in England. And first of all, obviously, it was the first time I had been in a car on the left side of the road. And so I had to confront the very obvious. It's obvious if you think about it, but it became obvious and important to me. There's no right or wrong about which side you drive on, the left or right side. That's purely cultural. But what the way you grow up is the norm.

Yes.

So for Protestant Christians, it is normal not to have religious rituals. But it is not normal in any religion on earth, at least that I'm aware of.

Well, you know who it would especially behoove to be reminded of this very important point that you think your life is the norm?

Yes.

Left-wing Americans.

Go on.

Who excoriate the United States, who say that we are a systemically racist, patriarchal, homophobic society. They have no idea what a staggering accomplishment this country is and the way that their lives are. And with all of the flaws America has, the way that their lives are, are leaps and bounds above everyone else's lives in the history of planet Earth. But we fall into this assumption where we just think freedom of speech, freedom of religion, as women being able to wear our hair down, go into a beauty salon. We think those things are the norm.

That's right. It's true for the West generally, but certainly for the United States.

Yeah.

So that, by the way, it's ironic because I mentioned this realization I had when I— my first exposure really to the rest of the world was in England in my junior year in college. And it shaped my thinking. For example, I mean, there were all these little things. I had it slightly in America in high school. On occasion, I would go to a friend's house for the weekend, and I remember the first time I was at a friend's house and they Put the— the mother put mustard on the table.

Oh my gosh, this is so weird. I was about to say this exact thing.

You're kidding.

Mustard?

Yes, mustard.

I was about to use that same thing.

It was a different brand.

Yes.

And you're in my, my home and I go, you don't use the same? That is so weird. You use Gulden's, we use French's.

So funny. I was literally about to—

so I have called it the French's mustard syndrome. All of my life. The same thing when I went to the— into their bathroom to brush my teeth.

The toothpaste—

they had Colgate toothpaste. We had Crest. And I thought, Colgate?

I know, why did they use Colgate? It's like they're, they're aliens from another planet.

People need to understand this is not a trivial issue. So at an early age, I had to confront, whoa, there are many ways of doing things.

Yeah.

The only thing that needs to be universal is moral standards. Bill, cultural stuff, have a great time. Drive on the left side, use a different mustard, use a different toothpaste. The Japanese wash their hands before they go to the bathroom.

Really?

Yes, that's right.

Oh God, these kinds of things fascinate me. It's the language thing. That's why I love Mario Pies book.

Exactly. So I'll give you another example of when this whole thing— when I got this really healthy perspective on my own life, that it was in— I was about 25 and I was my first trip to Hungary. 'Cause I went to communist countries a lot. Maybe 24.

Wow.

And I'm sitting in a park just watching people walk by, and a Hungarian guy is walking with his dog. Have I told you this?

No.

Oh, you'll love this. I have such a vivid memory of this. So the guy is talking to his dog in Hungarian, and my reaction was, is this guy an idiot? He thinks his dog speaks Hungarian. And I realized, wait a minute, I think my dog speaks English. Why is that any bit more coherent?

Oh, I so know these moments that you're talking about.

They're so important.

They're really important. Yes, because it's kind of— it's a necessary slap in the face to yourself.

Yes, exactly. I laughed at myself. I think it took 30 seconds till I thought, hey Dennis, you're an idiot.

Well, I'll tell you where this really came to the fore for me. So I recently did an interview with an individual in India, which is so cool to, to, oh, the best. It's really cool. Yes. But he was great. We had a great conversation about conservatism, but you know, when, whenever I'm, I've had limited exposure in international audiences, mainly I've had exposure in Britain, Australia, and then now India. But I always try to orient myself as far as their audience, you know, and even with the kind of language that I use, I'm just aware of it in the back of my head. And so we were talking on this India interview about what has made the United States great. And I was rattling off all of these things, the outsized value that we placed on the nuclear family, respect for the rule of law, patriotism, freedom of speech, a capitalist economic system. And then I got to freedom of religion. And I realized, I paused for a moment because I'm not speaking about this interviewer specifically, but many And maybe I'm wrong about this, but it occurred to me that perhaps there were some audience members in India who would not view freedom of religion as virtuous as perhaps we view it, because many are Hindu and want a Hindu majority state and a state where the laws and the kind of culture are very embedded in Hinduism. And so again, it was just like, it was just interesting for me to, to think about that. You know, we consider freedom of religion to be a universal, fundamental and universal value.

Yeah.

That everyone endeavors to have. But that's not true.

Exactly. Well, if I'd have known you were gonna interview someone in India, I would've, They interviewed me. Oh, that's even nicer.

Oh no, if I had interviewed them, I would have asked a lot of things.

Oh well, I would like to know what you would have. But here's a fascinating one. Does any school in India teach about what Muslims did in the 1,000-year rule of Muslims?

I'm sure.

Oh, I'm sure not.

Really? I, I disagree with that.

Oh, okay, fine. Then I'll give you my, my evidence.

Okay.

The, the head, uh, the lead historian in India in the '50s, I believe it was, the head of history at the major university or whatever it might have been, wrote about how Tens, many tens of millions of Hindus were killed by Muslims, an estimate of about 60 million over the course of 1,000 years. The, the, the— what was done to Indian Hindus by Muslim in Muslim rule is one of the horrors of human history. If you try to find that on the internet Oh, definitely. It is essentially invisible. And I spoke to— I've been to India a number of times. They are so afraid of teaching this to Hindu children because it might cause tension with Muslims who make up, I think, a quarter of the country.

20%.

Okay, so fifth of the country. Well, no, no. Yeah, yeah, fifth of the country. That they— it is simply put aside. They don't want riots between Muslims and Hindus. So that's why— why do you think they do teach that?

Well, I've done a— I mean, I, I don't claim to be any expert on, on India, but I have done a lot of reading on, um, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and the BJP party and their efforts to By the way, is it Modi or Modi?

I never, I don't know the answer.

I call him Modi. Maybe it's Modi.

I don't know either.

I've never heard Modi.

Oh, then it's the, okay. I haven't heard either.

Okay, go ahead. Well, he and his party are endeavoring to really make India a Hindu nationalist state.

Right.

They just opened this temple to, they just opened a temple in one of the northern provinces to honor the Hindu god Ram. And that was where a mosque stood. And in the '90s, a Hindu mob razed the mosque. There was, you know, obviously Hindu and Muslim conflict there. And then the mosque was demolished. And then a new Hindu— Modi and the party re-erected a Hindu temple honoring the god Ram. Now, they claim that the Hindu temple stood there. And then when the Mughal Empire, the Muslim Really? I think it's Mughal.

I think it's Mogul.

Well, I think it's Modi. So I know that it's not Modi.

I know it's Modi. You're correct. Yes, I'm— what you say, you're right, it is Modi.

Yeah.

So yeah, by the way, take a look, isn't it M-O-G-H-U-L?

M-U-G-H-A-L, I think. Wow. What's wow?

No, that I got it wrong for all of my life. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Anyway, go on.

Well, they say that there was the Hindu temple to the god Ram before, and then Muslims came in and destroyed it. And then—

Or what is it?

Mughal.

Mughal. Mughal. Wow. Maybe I'm thinking of how Hollywood—

Well, you can read Arabic. I can't.

So.

Right. But I can't read Hindi. Okay.

Anyway, my point is I've read a lot about Modi and the party and their efforts to Because Hindu, because India was a secular state for a lot of its post-colonial history after 1947. Indira Gandhi, Ravi Gandhi, her son, you know, they were all kind of wanting to make India into a secular state. And the whole appeal of Modi—

Guru as well, I assume.

Yes. The whole appeal of Modi's wanting to make it into a Hindu nationalist state. So that's why I said I'm not so sure that anymore they're, they're not teaching the Muslim history.

Well, the reason it's irrelevant whether India is more Hindu or more secular, they're afraid of riots.

Well, I've heard Modi talk about the quote 2000-year history of India. He talks a lot about the British and the Muslim colonial rule. So I think that might be changing, but I take your point.

Yeah. By the way, you'll— since this is classic of us, who thought we'd be talking about India? But the points are much larger than any of this. So people ask me that when I— there's literally one thing I brag about, and you know what it is: the number of countries I've visited. It's the only thing.

I thought you were going to say your fountain pen collection.

I don't, because people would think I'm weird, or at least eccentric, which there may be something to that.

Nothing wrong with that.

Yes, I'm totally fine with it. But I'm asked, when people find out how many countries I've been to, they will ask me, so what's your favorite country to visit? The most common question I get, and there is no answer.

Yeah, your answer would be all of them, I think.

To us overwhelmingly. But I do have two favorites to visit.

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I do have two favorites to visit, India and Israel. And I, I've thought many times because This is how your mind works and my mind works. Okay, Dennis, why are they so interesting, those two countries? They have— seem to have very little in common other than starting with the letter I. And then I realized they're the only two countries in the world with their own religion.

Hmm.

The Hindu country I thought, you know, Sri Lanka, but the Hindu country is India.

The Jewish country, it's the sole country of the— yeah, yes.

Isn't that interesting? So it makes for a different world, right? Obviously Israel and India, both very westernized, but— and Israel more so, but still in religious areas of Israel, you've entered another world. And in India, I mean, you could be walking down a beautiful street in some Indian city window shopping, and you turn around and there's a cow next to you. That doesn't happen anywhere on Earth.

Oh gosh, I'm so excited to go to India one day.

Oh, you've got to go to India. So, it begs the question, which was your least favorite country? Sean's a troublemaker. I actually have an answer, but I'm not saying it.

Oh, come on, it's Dennis and Julie.

I'm sorry, it's not.

Why?

If it was just Dennis and Julie.

Why?

Because I don't want to insult the country.

You wouldn't be insulting.

I would. I would. Oh, what is it?

I'm so sorry to do this to the listeners, but the second we're done, I'm asking.

No, I feel terrible because I say everything.

Okay, it's okay.

But if the only reason is there's— I have nothing against this particular country. I just didn't find it interesting. The people were nice. Okay.

I have a guess. No, actually I'm not gonna go there.

Okay.

All right. Anyway.

Okay.

So I thought you were going to say something a little different. So I, I've been to Israel, never been to India, but I was amazed when I went to Israel. Dazzled, transformed, and amazed. And of course it's because of the religious. I mean, being in Jerusalem was like being in spiritual Disneyland. It was incredibly moving to me. And when people would say this, I would have respect for it, but I wouldn't quite understand what they were talking about when people would say that you feel the holiness, but you really do feel it in Jerusalem. So there's that. But really what dazzled me about Israel were the people. I was so taken aback in the best way by their vitality. Just every, like, you know, the leaders of our trip who were Harvard Israeli students, the people we'd meet at restaurants there, you know, people we'd meet up out at clubs, at lectures, anything. They were so spirited. They were patriotic. They were real. They were tough, but they were fun. And I loved that at every single dinner or meal, you raise a glass and you go, "L'chaim," to life. And I realized that's really at the center of Israelis, that they know about life in a way that Americans don't. Because they have to serve in the army and they have daily threats to their existence. I mean, everyone in Israel has had a relative who has died either in the Holocaust or, you know, fighting in the IDF, especially now in a post, you know, October 7th world. But I realized they have texture and nuance and understanding and vitality in a way that Americans don't. Americans, at least in my view, in comparison to Israelis, were very deadened and boring. What do you— what do you make of that?

It's— there are many issues. First, let me start with the last one. Americans have become deadened.

Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. It wasn't always that way at all.

The left has a deadening impact on people. Do you know, I can tell you in 2 minutes if a kid comes from a conservative home, if a kid was, uh, was homeschooled. And you know what the most glaring characteristic is? They're not jaded. Oh yeah, jaded is deadened. So, so we'll, we'll put the American part aside. I like Israelis.

I love Israelis.

Well, you love them, and I totally get it. Often people come back. I love Israel. I love Israel. I love Israel. And I'm glad they do, obviously. And I get it. But you are right about Israelis, and they're flawed like every other human being. Yes, but you are right. Do you know that Israel, prior to October 7th, was regularly voted among the happiest countries in the world and by far the happiest in the Middle East.

Why is that, in your view?

Because they're very life-affirming.

Yes.

And that I give credit to Judaism. L'chaim is not to life. I mean, people who see Fiddler on the Roof probably know the song, to life, to life, l'chaim, l'chaim, l'chaim, to life. That there is a tremendous life-centered aspect to Judaism. Judaism believes in an afterlife, but it is overwhelmingly preoccupied with making this a good and happy life.

Well, one of the things that you taught me is that— is it in the Talmud or other rabbinic tradition where there are 5 questions that God will ask you when you die?

Yes.

And one of them is, why did you not partake in the joys of life.

In every permitted pleasure.

In every permitted pleasure.

Right. It's a sin not to enjoy life. Isn't that amazing?

It, it really is amazing.

But, and they have children. It's how many Western countries are they reproducing and then some their own population?

Listen, I totally agree with you about the deadening nature of the left. And by the way, I wanna say quickly, because a few minutes ago I said that it would behoove left-wing Americans to know that their is not the norm. What I really meant was leftists. As you often say, liberals are different from leftists. And so in this conversation, I also agree that the left, as in leftist project in America, has been very deadening. However, I do think that another component of this, of our deadening, is that we have been swaddled in prosperity and security and affluence. And thank God we have been. All of us are the beneficiaries of that. But I think it has made us spoiled. Liberal, conservative, left-wing, all of us. I think it has made us spoiled and, and disconnected from the reality of life and thus deadened in a way that Israelis are not, because Israelis have daily threats to their existence. We don't by comparison. I mean, that's, that's changing now. You know, the reality in America with crime, with fentanyl, all of that is changing things. But, but you take my point that we've, we've really been, we've had it pretty damn good for the past few decades here, certainly compared to Israel. So I think that's where a lot of the vitality comes from.

So, you know, this really is an intelligent point. I feel silly saying that the point you make is intelligent.

I'll take it.

You make a lot of them. But, but the— what I am noting is it's a provocative point, and I'd like to affirm why you might be well right, why you might well be right. Americans were much happier in the Depression and World War II than they are today. The depression rates and suicide rates are much higher today. No depression, no world war, and Americans are less— by considerably less happy today.

Okay. I have a theory about this that I feel like is a very Dennis Prager theory, and I said it on my show the other day. Timeless. It fascinates me how there are so many Americans today who view themselves as victims and they have been through nothing. Nothing.

Right.

And meanwhile, real victims, you know, those in the Depression, those in World War II right now, you know, victims of terrible atrocities all around the world. They don't view themselves as victims. And the main person I think of with regard to this is Alexei Navalny. Dennis Prager, who, as we all know, recently died. And I did—

was recently probably killed.

That's right. Thank you. That's a much, much more accurate way of saying it. He was murdered by the Kremlin. But I did this whole segment on Timeless about this guy was— had such humor up until the day he died. Literally the day before he died, he is— there's a video of him in a cell with handcuffs and he's making some joke. And it's not— it's not an act. You can really see his mirth. He's making a joke to the judge and he goes, you know, you know, Mr. Judge, I was hoping that you could wire transfer some of your, your money into my account because I'm, I'm not doing particularly well financially in here. Like, he was just, he was always kind of sticking it to them. And at his, at his funeral, he requested that Terminator 2, the music from that movie, be played, which is kind of— it was his favorite movie. And I just love that guy because not only was he—

he was full of life.

He was full of life. And he was filled with his enemies are full of death. Well, what I said was Alexei Navalny teaches us that humor is a weapon. They could take everything from him, his family, his freedom, his dignity, but they could not take away his spirit. And that was his weapon against them. It was the ultimate F-you to the Russian regime. Anyway, my point about victimhood is, again, this like, how does someone like Alexei Navalny not view himself as a victim, but then, you know, the average American college student goes to pieces and thinks that they have been through unimaginable trauma because they were microaggressed. And the answer is, in a way, it's kind of a luxury to view yourself as a victim. True victims can't really view themselves as victims because then they will just slide down a hole of despair. And you know who really hammered that home for me? My best friend in the world, Mahtab, who is the son of Bengali immigrants. Both of his parents died. He raises his 12-year-old sister. He was an orphan before he turned 20. And he is the most happy-go-lucky, great person I've ever met. You would never know what he's been through. And I asked him once recently, I said, How do you do this? Like, how do you not just lie on the couch and sit in a fetal position and cry after all that you've been through? And his answer to me was, I didn't have a choice.

That's exactly right.

I don't have a choice. I have to be there for my sister, and I have to be like, my life has to go on. I can't view myself as a victim.

Right. It's a luxury to be able to. That's excellent. You're batting, uh, always batting. Today you're really on fire.

Really? Yeah, I don't think I was.

I think it's the green dress.

You think this is green? I think this is gray.

Okay, so you're— I hope my wife doesn't watch this episode.

Why?

Because she's convinced I have color blindness.

I'm convinced I have color blindness.

Green and gray. Sean, is, is her dress green or gray?

Gray.

Boy, I really see it as green.

I'm a little colorblind.

That's fascinating.

I get greens and blues confused.

Gray?

Yes.

I don't see it.

I will admit I see a little bit of green in here.

That's all I see is green. It's very fascinating. Anyway, this victim thing, it's everything. A woman called my show. You know how few calls I remember? And I've had tens of thousands, right? But here is one of the maybe 10 that I remember in 40 years. Woman calls me on the happiness hour. I even remember from where— Brooklyn. Oh no, no, it wasn't Brooklyn. It was from the Philadelphia area. She called, Dennis, I gotta just tell you this. Uh, I am— my parents, my father— what was it? I think, I think it was— I think it worked that way. Or my mother. Let's just say father. My father was— my mother, my mother was a Holocaust survivor. My father is American-born. He's the depressed one, and my mother is the happy one. She lost her whole family in the Holocaust. She's the happy one. She's the happy parent. The guy who lost nobody is moody.

Well, it's because when you have something terrible happen to you, you have two roads in front of you. You can either send in your resignation letter to life.

That's right.

Or you can keep, keep going forward. And if you choose the latter road of continuing forward, you cannot view yourself as a victim. You don't have that luxury. Even if you are a victim, you have to think of yourself in different terms.

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Oh yes.

Oh, you have a happy childhood. To which people go, are you nuts? Because it's a blessing to have a, to have a happy childhood. Now it's no blessing to, to be abused. Okay, that's a curse.

It's a total curse.

But a childhood without misery may not be a blessing.

I mean, I think in, in all of the right ways I had a great childhood. My parents are the most loving, secure, you know, people ever. But I was utterly miserable for years of my life with swimming. Years. And there were times when I was—

I'll never forget that you cried in your goggles.

I did. It was horrible. I hated it. I hated it so much. And it was, it was like torture for me. I just hated it. And there were also times when I was, you know, our whole family was miserable because of what was going on with, with my sister Gina and the terrible care that she was facing. But you know what? I look back on those things, especially the swimming. I'm so grateful.

Wow.

I am so grateful that I was miserable for so many years swimming and I cried into my goggles. It is. It has made the rest of life, and especially uncomfortable or difficult situations, nothing. Nothing. And it's also made, you know, having that really disciplined, rigid childhood too, for me, has, has made working hard not hard, if that makes sense. Like, working hard is a feature, not an effort.

Here's my parallel. Through high school, I went to a yeshiva, which is an advanced Orthodox Jewish school. You have half the day in Hebrew religious subjects, half the day in English secular subjects. So literally double the number of hours, double the curriculum, double the work. When I went to college, and it would be 2, maybe 3 hours a day. I thought, they gotta be kidding.

I know.

I thought of college as a 4-year vacation. I'm not joking.

I know.

Which, after high school, it was, right?

Yes. Oh, can you imagine? When I was in college and 3 PM would roll around and I didn't have to dive into a pool, I remember thinking, this is the life. This is the best thing in the world.

I never had the— I didn't have to dive into a pool. I had the equivalent. But yes, so my question—

oh, it's—

if you have this easy childhood, maybe easy is better than happy. If you have this easy childhood, that's not a blessing. You, you don't build antibodies. Yeah, it's like if you never get a cold.

I'll tell you another thing that I've been thinking about a lot lately. people are hating you for that, weirdly it's a sign that you're doing something right if you're ticking them off.

That's right. What people— how shall I put this? I spent a lot of time in airports, but even when— if I go out of the house, there is no day that someone will not come by and say something sweet to me, a stranger, and perhaps ask for a selfie. So this is a common line I get. Dennis, I just want you to know we love you. Their family, or speaking on behalf of somebody else, boyfriend, girlfriend, doesn't matter. Or I love you. And but they always add, ah, but you hear that all the time. To which many years ago I actually came up with this answer. Actually, I also hear the opposite all the time.

Well, do you—

wait, let me just give the— you'll love this. You never— you don't know my response. Oh, you will love this. So I actually say to them, I mean, unless there are little kids around, I will say, you know what, Google Dennis Prager and see how many tens of thousands of hits you get. They totally crack up, and it's true. So obviously I resonate to what she's saying. The object of a vast amount of hatred and vast amount of love, to which, of course, you know this, I think. I've developed this really great lesson in life. If you let the compliments go to your head you will let the insults go to your heart.

Yeah, you have to maintain a sort of neutrality with regard to all of it.

Exactly. I deeply appreciate every kind comment, but they absolutely don't go to my head. It's— and likewise, the others curse me out all you like, fascist, this, this, this, this. It just means I'm having an effect. When I was on Bill Maher's show and the whole audience laughed at me, Bill Maher laughed at me, and the panel laughed at me when I said, "You think Donald Trump lies? Look at how the left lies." He goes, "What do you mean?" "Well, they say America is systemically racist and they say men menstruate." And he goes— this has, by the way, gone viral. There are maybe 10 million views of this on the internet. And he goes, what? Who says men menstruate? And he starts laughing and the whole audience is laughing. And I'm thinking, I know I'm right. They're going to laugh at themselves.

Totally. I study you and other courageous, principled people, and I try to figure out where does that come from, because that's not easy, even though you know you're right. To sit on national television live and be laughed at by the host and by the audience, that's not an amazing feeling, no matter how right you are. And so I look at stuff like that and I go, okay, what is animating that person? And I think it's two things. First, it's what you just said about having a kind of neutrality or indifference to the love and to the hate. But I think there's a second component of courage. Thinking long term, knowing that what you're doing now is going to age well. And that has been kind of my north. Like, I remember being at Harvard and, and writing that article about the COVID lockdowns, which was— even though I in the moment knew that I was right, it was insane to, you know, mask us as we're getting our food, but then allow us to take off the mask as we're eating our food, as if COVID only lives where the food is and not where the Dining table, I knew I was right about all of it, but still it was immensely unpopular. And I remember whenever I do something controversial or taking a risk, I tell myself one thing, this is going to age well. Think about that. Don't think about the here and now. Think about 3 years from now when you can go, yeah, that's right. I wrote an article about the crazy COVID restrictions and now you see that they're crazy. I knew it 3 years ago. What? You have to think long term.

Julie, you are so great today.

I really don't think I'm not.

No, no, no, you don't have to respond. Thank you. That is a very, very wise observation. And, you know, I mean, It's not hidden from the audience how much not only do I adore you, but I see me in you, which has happened very rarely in my life. At beginning in high school, I thought long term.

Yep.

It was built into me. I don't even take credit. That is how my mind worked. I thought in high school, and I was already a happy kid then, I— but I thought, you know, I'm gonna die. So that's when I developed my belief that if there is a good God, there is an afterlife. It's an axiom. It's not a belief. It's an axiom. It's a belief there's a good God, but it's not a belief that if there's a good God, there's an afterlife, right? That's so— I knew, I knew that then because I thought of that. But on a personal level, I remember thinking, how will I want to look back at my life when I'm old?

Yes.

And I am, I am living that now, and I thank God, or thank luck, or or thank whatever that I thought that way, because I can look back at a certain amount of good that I've done, at having children and grandchildren and a community. All that matters. When I— I've been divorced, as everybody knows. I got married my first marriage was because I could not continue to think I'm not going to live a bachelor life anymore. This is empty. So I got married more out of I want to get married, I want to make a home, I want to advance in life. And she's a wonderful woman, we're still very close, and, uh, but she was not for me and I was not for her. Okay, so fine, so we divorced. But I knew I don't want to look back if I can do anything about a childless— and then for my second child, pregnancy was not an option for my second wife. And so I said, oh, then we'll adopt. It took me 2 seconds.

And look what a blessing you got out of it.

Yes, exactly. But that's why when I meet young people and they're so career-preoccupied— and it's not like I haven't had a good career, but I knew what really will matter in the long term, and they don't because they're not— there's no long-term thinking. That's Tom Sowell's great point. He calls it stage one thinking. This is what characterized the, the left-wing mindset. What, what feels good now? Mm-hmm. But you know what? You're going to get old one day. You, you really— you're going to look back at being the head of sales for Neiman Marcus or some, you know, I'm just thinking, right, nothing against Neiman Marcus. That's going to bring you meaning at the end.

Yes. No, it's— I think it's the key to everything, and especially courage, knowing that what you were— what you are doing and what you are saying is going to age well.

That's right.

I just— oh gosh, bingo, Dennis and Julie, I had a point, but I forgot it.

No, there's so much going on that—

I know, my mind is racing.

Yes, me too. Dennis Prager here. With a man I have come to admire for his work. So when I asked him, what do you do, this is the title he gave: Wealth Architect.

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I was taken enough and impressed enough to have you do my work, and you have in fact saved me serious amount of money. CharlesDombek.com/DennisPrager. Oh, go on.

No, no, no, I, I'll remember it.

No, I'm just— I'm— I was only going to repeat that long-term thinking. You're right that I never— that's why I said I was so admiring of your point. I never associated that with courage. Oh, I associated it with meaning. That was a very intelligent—

I think it's— I think it is the key ingredient of courage. Really, because again, look at, I mean, Alexei Navalny, talk about thinking long-term. He thought long-term beyond his time here on Earth.

Which was relatively brief. What was he, 40?

47, I think. But he thought he was going to orient his actions for what would be best for his legacy long-term, and more importantly to him than his legacy was for Russia long-term. But no, all courageous people, consciously or not, do that. They think long-term. But, you know, another way that I see this, you're talking about thinking long-term, not just with regard to your career, but with regard to your personal life. That is a hugely important point because, and I have tended to at times fall into this trap. I hope I'm rectifying it, but I think a lot of people my age, we think long-term professionally, We think long-term with at least people I went to school with, kind of placing ourselves well as far as graduate school or, you know, subsequent degrees that we would get. But there's not that similar thinking long-term with getting married and having kids and making yourself into a deep, rich, good person. Like, I know this sounds weird, but sometimes I, sometimes I will purposefully put myself in challenging or uncomfortable situations because I view it as a kind of like resistance training. What? Why are you laughing?

Am I speaking to myself?

Maybe.

When I, when I was—

Because that's going to benefit me long term. You know, like, I always make it hard for yourself now. It's, it's literally like resistance training at the gym. And then later in life, when you're, you know, 30, when you're 40, you're going to encounter a similar situation and it's going to be nothing. Why wouldn't you try to build that muscle now so that you're coasting long term?

Such a joy. Again, I, I thought if it was easy, it was probably a mistake.

Oh my God, yes. I think it's a trap. I think I'm missing— no, I do this in a like Even if Waze tells me, the driving app, to go home like a fast way, I'm like, no, there's something wrong with that. There's going to be an accident. I always think the easy way is a trap. I remember most of the time I think it is.

One, one year I asked a couple of friends talking about our summer plans. So they said, so what are you doing, Dennis? Oh, I'm going to, I'm going to go to Europe. And I said, You want to come with me? It's fun to travel with a friend. I said, well, Dennis, that sounds great. Where are you going? I said, Bulgaria. I give you my word. And the guy goes, where else? Romania.

That's so cool.

Yes. You weren't my friend. Most people thought I think I'll, uh, I'll, I'll get some sun in Puerto Rico.

Yeah.

And, and I thought, my God, there's an option to see Eastern Europe, which nobody goes to, see communism, and I'm gonna lie in the sun in Puerto Rico?

Well, you know what, it's— I think about this so much. Establishing good habits, especially in my age, is really important. And then things Things become second nature to you. Like, I'll give you an example. Reading. I was— I talk on the show all the time about all the books that I'm reading, but when people write in to me and they go, Julie, I so admire your love of reading, it almost doesn't ring true to me because it's like, I hated reading for most of my life. I was in remedial. Oh, I did not like reading. Literally until I graduated from college. Dennis, I was in remedial reading when I was in third grade. I not only hated it, I struck— I really struggled with it. But I remember thinking when I graduated, especially with this job, like, push yourself to read. And now it— now really I'm reaping the benefits of it because it's easier to read long passages. It's just there are just those, those things. And working out is another thing. I mean, I'm not, I'm not spectacular at that, but trying to establish good habits because eventually, if you're thinking long-term, they will become a fixture in your life and they will no longer be an effort, and you will reap the rewards indefinitely.

So none of this is taught anymore.

Oh boy, is that a really good point? Yeah.

And the reason is no wisdom is taught.

Well, you know what, I actually could use your help with this. I'm trying to do a segment on Timeless about character education in American public schools? Because my understanding is that up until maybe the mid-20th century, stuff like that, like character used to be taught.

Yes.

So I don't know. I don't know a lot about that. But you're saying—

Oh, I know a lot about it, by the way. David Brooks. Oh, no comment. But David Brooks.

David Brooks. No comment.

Well, because I have mixed mixed feelings. I'm sure he has mixed feelings about me, but it doesn't matter. He wrote a piece on character education. Oh, he's a New York Times columnist. You— I'll, I'll find it for you, or you'll find it. Just giving a terrific synopsis. I think it was actually— I don't think—

in the Atlantic?

Yes, in the Atlantic.

Oh, I saw that.

Yeah, it's phenomenal. The What was it, McDuffie's Reader and other things? So I actually said, you know, I wish we went back to early 20th century education. So what did the left do? Prager wants to teach racism. Is that sick? That's what— is that what I'm referring to? Is that what they taught in schools? Hate people of other colors?

Also, even if some of that was taught, aren't you allowed to look at the good that was taught and want to pick that? But here's the problem. Many leftists, they immediately view the past as bad.

That's right.

Everything in the past has to be bad. There's nothing redeeming.

That's right.

But we are so enlightened now. Yes, we who trans the kids and give kids puberty blockers. We're the moral titans of the world.

Right. Raising the unhappiest generation of young people since they took records of, of young people's happiness.

Yep. No, I, I, I so want to do this, but here, here's the, the thing about character education. Many would say now that they're doing a character education.

Yeah, because they have made character into macro issues. If you have the right opinion—

that's a good point.

Oh, this is a huge point. That's a very, very If you have the right position on global warming, you're a good person. Not are you honest in your business dealings or don't cheat on tests. Not if you treat other people that you meet decently. Not if you have personal integrity. Not if you want to make a family. Do you have the right position?

That is true. It's— you're right. It's macro. Yes. Because, you know, I struggle with this because I, I'm a big believer in boundaries. You know, school is supposed to have its purpose. Your parents are supposed to have their purpose, your church, et cetera. And we now have these blurring of distinctions where school is supposed to be parent and political education and character education, et cetera. So I'm in favor of, again, keeping things in their place. But Yeah, I would support a good character education in public schools. But does that make me a hypocrite that I would support my version of character education in public schools but not their version of it?

No, because you're not opposed to character education. You're opposed to bad character education.

Right. I'm just trying to go back to the principle. My principle is there should be boundaries.

Like if I'm opposed to people breathing in dirty air. Does that make me a hypocrite for being for clean air?

What if someone would say to you, yeah, all character education should be relegated to the home and the school should just teach you how to read, how to do math, etc.?

Oh, totally. I'll live with that. That's fine with me. Be such an improvement over today. That's so true. Absolutely. But, but the schools did believe in character education and the homes did. Every home had— the poorest home had a Bible. You know, that was what they used at home to teach character.

Maybe it was you who told me this, or maybe it was Dion. I can't remember, but one of you told me that you used to go on a plane and they'd have Bibles.

So no, not Bibles, or a sticker. Yeah, on your tray when they used to serve in coach, they used to serve meals. Gone. And one of the things on your tray was a little card with a Bible verse on Alaska Airlines. And then the atheist said, we can't— no, that's wrong. There are people who are not, uh, Jewish or Christian. They don't, they don't, they don't want to have that. And then they took it away.

Here, here's the thing though, and I I think this is why, by the way, I just—

forgive me.

Go ahead.

If I flew Air India and it had a Bhagavad Gita little card, I'd be thrilled.

I'd be fascinated. It would be so interesting.

And the narcissism— I don't believe in the Bible, so don't you dare put a Bible verse with my lunch.

Boy, have I been thinking about this point you brought up lately that, you know, no one would think twice if you went on an India airline and they had, you know, their— or a Muslim airline or, you know, And they had their own texts. But then we, we, we hold ourselves to far different standards than we hold others to. I'll give you another example. Patriotism. It's seen as this terrible thing in America now to be patriotic, to love your country. If you love your country, then it's assumed that you endorse all the bad things in the past that your country did. If you love America, then it means that you loved slavery. It's BS. But then you look, would anybody dispute if someone from Iran said, I love my country? Would we look at that person and go, oh, you're saying you love your country? Well, that does that mean that you love, you know, Sharia law? Does that mean that you love the morality police who killed Mahsa Amini in 2022 for having some strands of hair poke through her hijab? Oh, you love Iran? You like the subjugation of women, you know, enshrined in law? No one would think that. They will go, of course that person loves their country. So, so what? Why is there this double standard? Why we who are in a comparatively free and tolerant country have to apologize for loving our country, but those in sick authoritarian countries don't have to apologize?

Maybe 25 years ago I did, I did a show and the topic was some college remove the American flag. And their reason was we have foreign students, so it's not inclusive.

I know. Well, that's why they don't teach Western Civ, because it's intellectually imperialist. If we went to study abroad at a French school or a Chinese school and there was mandatory Confucius education or, you know, Napoleonic war, would we think twice? No, because we know we're going into their territory.

Even in the West, would it— would one of these US leftists this who opposes the U.S. flag at a college, if they went to a Norwegian university and they had a flag of Norway, would they object?

Of course not.

Even a Western country. It's hatred for Americana. That's what it is. This is about as fast as Dennis and Julie—

are we done?

Yeah.

Well, okay. Well, I wanted to bring something up, so bring it up.

Bring it up next time.

We're really done.

Yeah. I know, but that's a good sign. She rarely says, are we— I've lost track of time. I've been Googling Prager A-hole. Did people hear what he said?

No, no.

He lost track of time. He's been Googling Prager A-hole.

There is so much.

How many did you come up with? I have a new hobby. I know what I'm doing tonight.

Oh, there is so much.

That's what he's going to be doing.

I actually enjoy now reading stuff because I know you so well that I know it's a— how absurd it is.

Maybe an attack.

Yeah, it's kind of funny.

Well, it's depressing, and I don't know, it's— I'm totally not speaking personally. It's depressing. Do you know that there is— I shouldn't even say this because it gives them publicity, but it's irrelevant— there's a whole website that is Prager instead of PragerU, Prager Urine. Now, do you understand? Do you understand?

Sean is laughing.

The, the, uh, to say immaturity, it gives immaturity a bad name.

Well, I'll, I'll leave you with this. When I was discovering my conservative instincts. That's the way I say it now. I don't say when I was becoming conservative and I was discovering my conservative instincts and I was so taken with PragerU, I decided to watch some videos destroying PragerU videos because I thought, okay, well, I'm willing to be convinced that these people are scumbags.

Right.

And that is what made me even more convinced that you guys are the real deal, watching the videos trying to excoriate you. And they were intellectually shallow and immature and pathetic. So that's right. If it makes you feel any better.

Thank you. Yes. Yeah. When I see that, I think, wow. I'll tell you that it's funny. Next time, maybe, because I have a whole reaction that I, I don't think I've ever told you. When people write me, just curse me out in an email.

Yeah.

I have a standard response.

What would your father say?

Yeah. No, no. Are you a father?

Oh yeah, that's what it is.

So we'll talk about that. Yeah, this was really special.

I agree. You can reach me at julie@julie-hartman.com. And thank you all so much for your emails. It's painful, painful that I can't respond to all of you, but I read all of them. She sends them to me and I send them to Dennis, and they are just amazing. So keep them coming. And you can also follow me on Instagram and Twitter @julierhartman. You can follow Dennis on Twitter, right, Dennis? @DennisPrager.

Yes. And on Instagram, DennisPrager.com.

On Instagram, @TheDennisPrager.

Really? That's really nice to hear.

Every time. Every time.

I'm consistent.

And I'm consistent with this. Shalom. See you soon.

Bye.

Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits three ways. One-third chooses the dog, one-third chooses the stranger, and one-third aren't sure. Fewer.

Why?

Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions. And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality and why Judeo-Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, you are in effect affirming God.

If There Is No God by Dennis Prager, available now at pragerstore.com. That's pragerstore.com.