What Makes An Individual?

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hey everybody, Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman, the Dennis and Julie podcast. I gotta tell you, Jules, I get such wonderful feedback from some pretty classy people.

Me too.

I'm sure you do.

Via email.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I do in person because of my travels. Anyway, I just thought I'd share that. So hi everybody, whatever your station in life, as they say. So I— this is not an— it's an important thought, but it's not worthy of long discussion. But you know, you are— you're so alike. I mean, I love it. It's one of the things I love about you and being with you, the similarity of our wanting to understand everything. So as soon as the music comes on, I get into a mode, a mode and a mood. I was thinking mood, but you're right about mode. And I was thinking everybody has the same experience. Everybody, virtually everyone, gets into a certain type of mood and mode with certain types of music. Everyone, everyone, you know, you, you hear your country's national anthem, forget the words, just the music, you, you're stirred. Sometimes to tears if you love your country. Is there any visual equivalent in power to the oral, oral?

I think so. So one of my favorite publications, which I publicize on this show free of charge, I do it all the time. I love it so much.

Journal of Asian Endocrinology.

That sounds cool. I actually like picking up— when I was traveling— oh gosh, I should tell you about the Bucharest airport. You will love this. I'm pulling a Dennis Prager. You will love this line. Let's put that on the side. I do love reading random journals, but what was our topic? Oh my gosh.

So hold on. The visual.

Oh yes, thank you. So one of my favorite publications is the Epoch Times, and they do a life and tradition section, and sometimes they will profile— they have a recent sort of a spread, if you will, or column where someone profiles a different state capital. And it's really beautiful and interesting to see the architecture of these different state capitals. And it got me thinking about how ennobling a space can be. When I went on this 5-week trip to Europe, one of the places that I spoke at, and it was really, actually very last minute, the invitation was Oxford. I spoke to the Roger Scruton Legacy Foundation about art and architecture. And one of the things that I, the main thing that I argued, which, and I'll post the talk online, but one of the thing, the main thing I argued was that the architecture of a place can tell you so much about the ideology. And you look at, Nazi, fascist, communist architecture. When I was in Italy, I went to Ajor, which was Mussolini's fascist utopian city. He created it for the 1942 World's Fair, which never ended up happening because of World War II. And it's all of this white marble and it's very heavy and straight lines because, you know, curved, any kind of curves were considered to be feminine. And you go there and literally proportionally with your scale as a human being, you feel overpowered. And it made me so appreciate the White House, the state Capitol, because you go into these— sorry, we have to laugh. We have to laugh at that before.

I—

all right.

I never hit the mic at the radio show. I do hit the mic in the podcast. Yeah. Yeah, we have to explain why we're laughing. Because we had a debate about how often I hit the mic.

My dear friends, Dennis and Julie friends here at the station, we call Dennis M.O.B., Murder on Broadcast, because he hits the mic. And by the way, when I guest host for you, when I hit the mic, because it does happen, you—

Yes.

And you know what I say? I go, well, I really am a Dennis Prager protégé.

That's beautiful. I see. I think that's beautiful.

I just need to start speaking in Hebrew. That would be to get the right tour line. But anyway, you will appreciate this because I think what you say about music is so true. But I think that there is something that can be equally ennobling about walking into a magnificent space. I think when you walk into the United States Capitol, you become a character.

Well, that's true. You know what? I feel that in cathedrals. And I'm not Catholic and I'm not Christian, but I walk into a cathedral and I have, I'm supposed to, but it works. I feel God's presence more than at a baseball game.

[Speaker] Of course. And you know, so interestingly, I have a friend who I was with yesterday and he is looking at homes in Los Angeles to buy. And we went out to dinner and then we drove around and looked at these various houses, just the outside of them because they weren't open. And he really likes this house, which is actually quite old. On the inside, it's renovated, but the outside is old and it's sort of Gothic. I actually can't quite figure out the style. It's a little weird looking on the outside. And then we looked at these other houses and there were these very specky, perfectly manicured lawns, perfect proportions, these gorgeous new homes. And one of the things he said to me is, you know, in a place like Italy, when you tore an apartment or a house, the older it is, it actually has more value. People want the older homes because it's lived in, it has history. It's, it's cool, you know, and people wanna discover who lived here before me was, you know, was it a, a good marriage, a bad marriage? What kind of diplomat may have lived here? And then in Los Angeles, it's like everybody wants the new house that looks like all of the other houses. And I think that that has a deadening effect. And so to answer your question, I think architecture can be just as ennobling as music. And I think, and you will resonate with this so much, clothes. Like today, I'll tell you, when I put on these earrings, I felt something.

Oh, oh, oh, did they?

I just thought I'd pause there.

No, no, no, no, seriously. Did they belong to a grandmother or something?

No, they were just—

So what did you feel?

I felt classy. I felt— pretty. I felt like I was channeling a part of myself, of a unique, classy, dare I say timeless girl. And I feel different. I mean, the other day I was on a plane and I had— you wouldn't approve of this, sorry, but I had a sweatshirt and sweatpants on and I felt like a troll.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't approve of it. Look, I would be happy to talk for a long time with you if but if we have, I wouldn't, if we already have, I wouldn't do it.

Oh, it's huge.

It is depressing to see the way people go to work, but I know I've mentioned this in the past. All I, I don't deny the power of the visual and especially of architecture, to be precise, but the direct line to the emotions Here, so we open up with the theme, right? With a musical theme. So the second it starts, I am transported. There's no picture of a building, even, you know, the Taj Mahal or the Capitol.

But you have to experience it. You have to walk.

You have, yes.

It's not a picture. Like you couldn't see a picture of it. You have to. In the same way you're listening to the music, you have to walk into the building.

Right. So music is a far more accessible emotion-bringer than visual. Because if you have to walk into a building— and I fully acknowledge I said about cathedrals and their effect on me— but the immediacy, the ability of music anywhere on earth, you could be in bed with earphones and you can be brought to almost tears. Anyway, it's a gift of, I think it's a gift of God. There's no evolutionary explanation for music's power.

You know, it's really a great topic, and we never plan our topics, but it's so spontaneous. I actually really think that a physical space has an equal effect. And because of all of my travels recently to 7 countries, Italy, Malta, Ireland, England, Romania, Slovakia, and Hungary, and Denmark, 8, I guess, 8 countries. I understand, actually. I actually— now it's kind of a fascination. Our architecture in the United States is so shabby compared to architecture in Europe. And I'm not, you know—

but is that true for modern architecture in Europe? I don't know if that's true.

No, it's not true. It's not true of modern architecture.

All right, then the modern in both stink.

But it's so important. Like, I really— I know this may sound bizarre. I actually think people would vote differently if we had older architecture around us. I really do, because it ties it— there's nothing tying us to our past, right? There's, you know, and also you need—

that's deliberate.

You need something, you need something that is so enchanting and is so dreamlike, I think. And anyway, I think, I think that is the same effect. Well, yeah, I don't mean to segue, though. Welcome to Dennis and Julie. We often—

no, no, I acknowledge that this immediate reaction to the opening music was, uh, going to be a short part of our broadcast. Go ahead.

Yes, but I also, just to maybe close it out, I, I know I've said this on Timeless before, but as I get older, I'm really trying to be careful about what I consume musically and also my living space, because it really— we don't quite understand this in the modern world, but it has such an effect on you. And this, this is small, but In my apartment, I haven't the past 2 years decorated for Christmas or Thanksgiving. I'm going to do that differently this year. I'm going to deck out my whole, even if it's just me.

Good.

You know, and you're, you know, how do you feel going into your library? You have so many heirlooms, you have so many pictures and books. Like, do you think it orients you or are you kind of used to it?

Well, both are true. It orients me and I'm used to it, but I've obviously created it as such. By the way, here's an interesting subject. I don't— again, it's not going to be long, but I do think it's significant.

Yeah.

So everybody who comes into my study, office, whatever you want to call it, is struck by the number of books. There are probably 1,000 books in the room, or would you say?

Probably, yeah.

Okay.

Minimum.

So I, on rare occasion, I have mentioned this, but I should do it more. I believe every person's home, apartment or house, everyone should have a bookcase with books. Of course, even if you'd never read them. To be, to be surrounded by books is a different world than having no books around you. If there are books around you, if there are even multiple bookcases, which in case obviously in my room, you are announcing to the world you take ideas seriously.

But what if they don't? What if someone doesn't take ideas seriously? Should they posture?

Yes.

Why?

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I see. I hate posturing. I think I, I would almost respect someone more for not doing it. And because I've been to homes where people have the bookshelf of the perfectly curated books of, you know, To Kill a Mockingbird and— right, you know, they have it perfectly on the wall. It's like, you don't read those. Come on. Who are you fooling?

They're not fooling. They're announcing that it is significant enough to them to have offered a bookcase of them.

I disagree.

Why? Why do you think they're doing it?

To seem worldly?

No, but people don't care anymore. Nobody leaves a house saying, God, I didn't see one book there.

Right.

So it gains you The average person doesn't think it gains you anything.

I think I am. I see.

So I'm curious, this posturing, that's your term. So the term used when I speak to young people, you should act happy even if you don't feel it. They go, it's inauthentic. So do you resonate to that? It's inauthentic.

Oh, sorry. No, no, I resonate to your, your, your, your.

Yes.

Okay.

So, so Why can't they say about acting in a good mood when they're not in a good mood is like putting out books even though you're not a reader? Why aren't they analogous?

They're not, because when you're— when you're— the way you carry yourself is of such consequence all the time, right?

The way you carry yourself.

I know, but like, that's the way having books on your bookshelf, I mean, you don't read them, so what?

But that, that's how you're carrying yourself.

I think, I think that's just fake.

Why? But so is your good mood if you're in a bad mood.

But it's, it's, it's completely— it's just completely different.

Why?

Because you're like, you, you carry your mood with you.

What if you're an actual slob but you, you dress up nicely to go on an airplane?

Well, who would do that? I'm kidding. People should do that.

Yes, exactly. People should do that.

You know, I just— maybe, maybe I'm sensitive to it because I actually, sometimes I feel like I trash sometimes my schools or upbringing, but growing up in secular liberal environments, there's a lot of posturing. There's a lot of, I am a worldly person. There's just, and especially aesthetically, there's a lot. You go sometimes into people's homes or you go into their apartments and it's really like they're trying to look cool. They're trying to look like they read or look like they, and it's actually very studied. And I just, I don't think you should be a studied person. I think that I hate, I think it's very, Norman Cousins has this great quote about people who wear the uniform of nonconformity. I just get the heebie-jeebies when I see another same old coffee table book that every single person has and another crystal that every single white girl in LA buys and another, like it's just, it looks so, it's like, It's like communist to me, honestly. It's like, who are you? Who, who are you besides what you think your apartment should look like on Pinterest? What do you actually want to read? What do you actually like this coffee table book, or did you see it on West Elm and you think you're going to be a cool girl on Instagram if you buy it? I just, I would almost rather people who don't read to not even act like they do because everyone is becoming the same, or not everyone, but I see a lot of people my age, they're trying to become, you know, the same kind of person. It's like, you're not fooling anybody.

It's not a nightmare to me to imagine your generation thinking, wow, you have been in these, like. Wait, wait, wait. You're telling me that a large number of your peers are putting up bookcases with books in their apartment?

But they're the same books?

No, no, no, no. Wait, wait.

Modern authors. Are they feminist? Yes. Are they A lot, yes.

Most of the people you know— well, it may not be fair because you went to an elite college, but I find it hard to believe that more than 25% of people your age have bookcases with books in them in their apartments.

I don't know, I don't go to enough apartments.

All right, so yes, okay, so what if I'm right? What if 3 out of 4 people your age have no books on display? So would you prefer that they have no books on display or books on display but they don't read them? Which would you prefer? I prefer—

I prefer the latter.

Wait, wait, wait. You— wait, you prefer books on display that they don't read?

Yes.

So why are we arguing?

Because I still think that there is this push right now. I think that, you know, okay, Instagram, and this is something that I don't mean this in a mean way, you just don't understand because of your age and because you're not on these things, God bless you. But I believe that Instagram and social media has homogenized the human experience. It has made people, I've talked about this on Dennis and Julie, I wrote a Washington Examiner article about the subject. If you look at an Instagram profile, you're reduced to a profile picture, a 200 or 150 character bio, and then a limited amount limited number of photos and videos. And it— people again who are my age are going to understand what I'm saying, but it has this effect of making people into kind of brands to be marketed. And when you're on social media all day and you're seeing the same kinds of pictures, and there's this kind of cool girl aesthetic with a coffee table, book open, and a candle going, or, you know, like, there's, there's a lot of stuff on Instagram about aesthetics, about taking pictures of your food, taking pictures of your home, taking pic— and it all looks the bleeping same. Every single girl goes out to the same restaurant, takes the same photo of the pasta with the wine, and does the same like, cheers, I'm with my best friend, or does the same picture of the same feminist book. And it's like, we're all the same. What makes us different? You know, if you want to read about 19th century Japanese, I don't know, state building efforts. You know, read about that. Don't do this homogenization game where you're trying to act so worldly, but you're really just replicating what you see on your Instagram. I don't, I think again, I don't, I don't like this sameness.

I agree 100%.

There are no individual, like who's an individual anymore?

Right. But I don't know what it has to do with my simple. Okay, he wants me to ask you a question. Who's the bigger poser, someone with a bookshelf full of books they haven't read or someone who maintains a Pinterest account? God, I don't know if I agree. Who is the bigger poser, the person who has a bookshelf full of books they haven't read or someone who maintains a Pinterest account?

I think what I've hit on here is actually really worth discussing and it may explain my perhaps irrational but nevertheless Pavlovian reaction to just putting books on a bookshelf that you never read. Well, if they're good, people can come and disagree with me for this. I feel like if they're good quality books, I would appreciate that. But if they're BS modern day feminist reads with a cool title to look cool, but that's what's happening a lot now. And that's what I don't like. And there— so, so let me get back to this. This is so interesting to me, actually. When you grew up— and Sean, we'll bring in, bring in Sean Z to this discussion too, on the assumption that he's grown up. Yeah, that was quick. Did you guys feel like you knew true individuals? Did you sort of feel like your life was—

I've only known true individuals.

Do you feel like your life had a cast of characters of truly individual people? Okay, I don't. I don't feel that way.

Interesting.

I feel that I have had to work very hard to find real individuals.

I didn't say I didn't work hard, but I, I found them.

I think— and, and look, it's really easy to romanticize the past. I mean, we live in an era where people excoriate the past. I think there's also another thing where you can say everything was was better back then. I'm not trying to fall into that trap. That being said, I do think there were more individuals there. There were more unique, truly independent, sturdy people. Yes. And I just— there is— there's a real homogenization, and it—

politically, right? About that.

Also, personality-wise, aesthetically, social media-wise, I feel like people are trying to be a replica, or they're trying to be the kind of person that that society, not to sound woke, but that society thinks that they should be. Of course that existed before social media.

Yeah. No, no, no.

But social media has exacerbated it.

That's right. Social media, I think, has exacerbated it. Although I remember in college where they would all think of themselves as nonconformists. They hated to be—

Exactly. But they're wearing the uniform of nonconformity.

Identically.

That's a Norman Cousins quote. They are wearing the uniform of nonconformity.

Uniform of nonconformity.

So what does it mean to be a true individual? Think about it.

Well, this goes back to a subject that I'm having. I'm making no headway on with my friends.

Your core. Yeah, that we talked about on D&J.

I know, but I'm making no headway. It's an interesting subject that none of my closest friends, including psychiatrists, as you know, could come up with a definition of core.

So we all agree it exists.

Sort of like that. Yes, right. What was it the Supreme Court justice said? I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it. I can't define core, but I know it when I see it. She has a core. He has a core. I think I know what I'm talking about, at least to myself. So How did we get on to the core issue?

The homogenization. What makes a true individual?

Oh yeah, yeah, what makes a true individual is a very tough question. Again, I know it when I see it. I know, I know who is real. A good word, another good word, it's not a synonym for core, but it's a good word. Real.

What does it mean to be real?

It means that you are doing things because you have thought it through and, and have come to believe in them. Not, not because it's the popular thing to do. By the way, if the popular thing to do is be kind, I'm for people doing the popular thing, but Nevertheless, people strike you, they strike me as an individual, a person. If I go into a house and I see 99% of contemporary art up, I generally believe that that the interior decorator picked it out.

Okay. This is actually explaining my Pavlovian or knee-jerk kind of dislike of the whole putting up books thing. It's giving the same vibe, to use a very Gen Z phrase, as, oh, the interior designer put up, you know, the scribbles on your wall. A lot of people do that with, with how many books setting.

Okay, really?

Yes.

I'm asking, not challenging. I'm just curious if you said to the average interior designer, look, I don't know, I don't know any books. Oh my God, Dennis, they will— don't get Gibbon's Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire.

No, they may not get that, but interior designers do books. I mean, they buy books for homes.

I mean, they look—

I would talk about like what they buy, cover of the book, and does that stack nicely on your, you know, paperweight.

Well, I wanna just say this, the Rational Bible has beautiful jackets. No, no jackets.

Right there.

Beautiful illustration on the COVID So if you wanna decorate your home.

And look, I mean, we just, we started the episode by talking about the importance of aesthetics. I'm not decrying the importance of aesthetics, but what's so cool, and when I was in Rome for 2 and a half weeks this summer, you know, I would go into every single church And it was different. You know, it was, it was, it was truly unique. It was like that, that church was its own character.

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You know, I, I, since that Dennis and Julie episode, have also been contemplating this question of a, of a core. And I think that your statement referring to the Supreme Court justice on pornography, I actually think is spot on. But one way I've tried to figure this out, or try to answer this question that I asked a few moments ago, what does it mean to be an individual? I have started to read about saints. For instance, the one I'm reading a bit about now is Joan of Arc. And I remember when I would go into these different churches when I was in Rome, I— you know how much I love history, and I would get very, uh, mad at myself if I didn't know the saint or the, you know, person to whom the church was dedicated. And I remember a friend said to me, you know, when you go into a new church and discover a new saint, it's like meeting a new friend. And I thought, that's so cool. And now, and now I see it that way, where these Characters are people who you get to know, and I think that's what makes the Torah so cool. Abraham is a different character than Noah, who is a different character than Cain, who's a different character than Abel. These people are true individuals.

Yep.

And we just— I struggle to— and of course, you know, all throughout life, Sean was right, this predated social media, but If you don't mind, can we continue with this question? What does it mean to be an individual? It means to have a core. Oh, Sean is saying furthermore.

What has bred more uniform nonconformity, the left or social media?

And what has further bred the uniform of nonconformity, the left or social media, he said. Well, let's focus. Let's focus first on what makes an individual.

I'm thinking, obviously, what makes an individual where— well, a big part of it, I have to believe, is convictions. That are, are not shaped by desire to be popular, publicly accepted.

Yes, I think that is a huge part.

Oh good, I'm glad.

That's very well said.

The— it's very interesting, it raises a whole nother issue, but it's a worthy issue. So if your kid is popular in high school It doesn't tell me much about your kid. Your kid may be wonderful and your kid may be pretty awful. They, they may be popular because they have charm, not because they're an individual, not because they're a fine human being. Does that make sense? But And then people who are individuals don't seek popularity.

Yes, I think that is the key ingredient. Every— I'm— as we are speaking, I'm trying to think of people in my life and in our lives.

It might be the key.

Who are individuals? And I think that is the key ingredient. People who do things their own way. That— and they are the— something I think is, is a real hallmark, excuse me, of an individual is someone who is the same all of the time. Oh, no matter where you go.

All right. So wait, that, that's authentic.

Well, you said real a few minutes ago, right?

So is authentic— I'm just asking, is authentic and individual the same thing?

So, okay, yes and no. It depends on our definitions. A few moments ago, you were— early in the episode, you were talking about people who say it's inauthentic for me to act happy if I'm not happy.

Yes.

So in that sense, the word authentic, I think you should be real, but part of being real is you work on curbing your, I mean, if we were all authentic all the time, you'd probably be asleep right now and I'd probably be like stretching my head into my blanket.

None of us are always authentic. [Speaker] Well, I give a grosser thing to kids. You're authentic if you don't shower, if you don't brush your teeth, if you flatulate in public. That's authentic. I mean, so authentic, you know, authenticity. There's authenticity of personality and then there's physical authenticity.

Right. The word authenticity to me gives a very like So in that sense, the word authentic, I think you should. I think you should be real. But part of being real is you work on curbing your. I mean, if we were all authentic all the time, you'd probably be asleep right now, and I'd probably be like, stretching my head. None of us are always authentic. Well, I give a grocer thing to kids.

Well, you asked, who's an individual? Is that the governing question?

Yes.

So here's another one. You can't be an individual if you're a coward.

Yeah.

Courage is a fundamental characteristic of being an individual.

So you know what part of this is? I think that people my age really lack good role models of an individual. And I know that people are going to think that I am partisan when I say this, but look at someone like Joe Biden or look at someone like Kamala Harris. Are they individuals?

I don't think so.

Hardly. You know, they are the definitions to me, putting politics aside, of, of, of, you know, being the replica of who they think that they should be. Donald Trump, say what you want about him. He is an individual.

That's a good point.

He is an individual and actually evinces the core traits.

And he does not aim to be—

he does not aim to be popular even among his supporters. He turns away many of his supporters because he doesn't care about being popular. He is immune, sometimes too much so, to the opinions of others. But he's an individual. And you know what? I think sometimes, and I think a lot of people, and I don't mean this at all in a kind of judgmental way, I actually feel for my generation so much. I think a lot of us are really endeavoring trying to be individuals and we have no idea what that looks like. And then I think that's when we do the whole like, okay, is this who I am? Am I the artsy girl? Am I the this girl? Am I the that? And it's like, no, don't be a replica. But then also I think sometimes people can go like— and I know I just went to Europe— but go fly to another country and try to have some wild experience to figure out their individuality. And it's really hard. Because all of us, I believe and hope, yearn for it, but we don't have good— like, can you name someone growing up, either in public life or in your own life, who you looked at and you went, that is a unique person? That is—

well, I wouldn't have said unique person. I would have said individual.

Okay. Who?

Yeah, my father. Okay. That, that which raises a fascinating question. Is what type of man your father is more important than how he is as a father?

Hmm.

I think it might be.

So why was your dad an individual?

Because he marched to his drummer. It was clear to me. I mean, I'll give you one, one out of many examples. I could give you a lot of examples, and there are some are quite impressive. One, I will tell you, it's really impressive. But here's an example that people may not be impressive, feel impressive. I think it is. At the Shabbat table, which you're now very familiar with, Friday night, the family would sit down and, you know, it would go on and on because there's nothing else to do. We couldn't do anything electronic, couldn't watch a movie, couldn't drive anywhere. It was either go to bed or keep talking. So we kept talking. And anyway, my father would— I wouldn't say regularly, but I would say frequently discussed sex. I know you're laughing because it was the last thing that your parents would talk about.

Well, it's the last thing I expected you to say.

Okay. It was the last thing almost anybody watching us would expect me to say. That's correct. That's why I said it. That really gives you an idea. The man was an Orthodox Jew wearing a yarmulke, not, not using electricity on the Sabbath. And yet talk about sex.

And you're saying this is a— this evinces his individuality?

Yes, of course it is. Because if he'd have asked, what should I talk about as an Orthodox Jew at the Sabbath table? He would not have come up with an answer, sex. He would have come up with an answer. Well, the portion of the Torah that the Jews are reading that week, or, you know, some, some insight into the Talmud or what have you. He didn't ask what, what is the appropriate thing for me to talk about? He asked, what do I have on my mind, right, that you might find of interest?

Hmm. I think another ingredient of this, and I know I'm talking a lot about social media, but it's so pertinent for my generation. Is that part of being an individual is having a rich inner life. So what do you do in private? Like what, what, when nobody's watching? And this is, I think this is foreign to you because first of all, you're an individual. And second of all, you didn't grow up in the age of social media. I grew up in the age where you broadcast every single thing you're doing. Every single thing. And so I— a big question, and I ask myself this when I use social media, is, you know, why do I— when I go to a place, I feel the, the urge to take a photo because otherwise I feel like it didn't happen. Because, because of the way that just growing up I've been, I have— I feel like I have to take a picture. And I'm so over this now, but I used to feel like I had to, to to post. And then I really asked myself this question: what is— you know, can you have an experience for you and not tell anybody about it? And it's funny because even though I have a show, two shows, and our lives are, you know— well, we don't really broadcast our lives. I mean, we do, but we're more so talking about values. Even though in a way I have a very public-facing job, I would consider myself to be a private person. The other day we filmed right by Forest Lawn Cemetery, which, by the way, if anybody's ever in Los Angeles, you have to go to Forest Lawn. There, it's beautiful. It was the cemetery that was— and it's all American. It's the cemetery right near us here, which has all of these replicas of statues of David, for instance, Michelangelo's David. There are reliefs of the Constitution, of the Last Supper. It's all around. It's like an American cemetery. It's amazing. And the other day I just walked through there. I just drove there after work alone and just walked through there and I looked at some of the graves and I noticed by the way that a lot of every single grave doesn't say what job you did. It doesn't say what religion you were. Didn't say what, how successful you were. It said mother, sister, daughter, brother, husband. In other words, I went and I did something to fill me up that I didn't tell anybody about that I didn't post on Instagram because that's That's my relationship with Julie. And then in turn, I think that makes me an individual.

Yeah, it does.

Like, who does? Who is a person outside of the public?

Well, also, you did something almost nobody else does. You know, you're 24 or—

I walked around a cemetery.

Yes, exactly. That's correct.

That you went to a cemetery.

All right.

Maybe Julie's wandering among the dead.

Call my doctor is not a funny line because it's like, where does bravery end and stupidity begin? So are you going to jump across the Grand Canyon? That's bravery, but it's also stupid, right?

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So it's sort of like, where does individuality end and being a nut begin? It's not easy to answer.

Well, you are a true, I mean, I'm at your house and I go over and you're just scrolling on a new, I mean, your interests are truly, I mean, I love Dennis, but I get so bored with the whole audio equipment thing, God bless you. But you really love this stuff. And it's not— again, this is antithetical to you, but I am telling you, this is revolutionary among my age. You do it for you. You're not— you're not trying to impress anyone with your audio equipment.

Well, look, I mean, if I—

obsession—

my life would be a good example of an individual. In high school, I didn't do any homework. I didn't go to parties. I never liked parties. I always actually disliked them. I have even a reason why.

I love parties.

Okay, that's fine. You're an individual and love parties.

Yeah, they're fun.

Exactly.

And I love people watching, even if the people are kind of insufferable.

But I just want to say, talk about being— I'm not— this is not bragging. I'm just giving it— not at all bragging. I'm just noting because I'm the life I know best. This, this would characterize an individual. When I was in high school, I went every week to the New York Philharmonic Library to follow symphonic scores and teach myself how to conduct. That's an individual. Now, you could even say it's weird, but there's— there's— it's clearly an individual.

I think what's sad And when I'm about to say this, it's gonna sound really hippie. I believe that we have immense amount of responsibilities in life. I believe that we have an obligation to all of those around us to behave well, to be happy, as you say. But I think a lot of people in my generation, we don't live lives for ourselves.

Right. We don't live for—

we live for other people. And, and I even recognize this. And I, and as you often say, I don't really take credit for it. I've always been an individual. This is the whole core thing.

I was like parties.

I do like parties. Yes. And I'm a fun time at a party. I'm a fun bleeping time.

Right. Yeah.

No, but there's this.

She doesn't mean live for yourself. That you're selfish. Live for yourself means you march to your drum, not to everybody else's.

You know, you know a saying I love and I've been thinking about so much recently?

Read the room.

That is a really good one. Astrid said that one. Yeah, that's a—

she's changed my life.

Well, that's a great one. My mom has been saying that since I was little. It's a great saying.

Yeah.

One of— oh God, hold on, we'll recall it. Read the room was such a good— oh, I got it. This saying that I love is, everywhere you go, there you are.

Oh, that is great.

Everywhere you go, I never heard that. Yeah, you are right. You, you know, and I, I have found— there have been times when I have found in life, I'm like, oh, if I just do this, or if I run away here, or if I go—

right. No, no, no, no, you bring you, you bring you.

And so I think really, and again, I— we have— you and I are aligned. We have obligations to people, we have responsibility, all of that, of course. But we are fundamentally— every— for our whole lives, we're always going to be with one person: ourselves. All day, every day, we are in our bodies. And so I just think it's important to have a good relationship with yourself. You know, I have the other day—

what does that mean?

Okay, I'll give you an example. The other, you know, I have, I used to have no work-life balance, like none. And Sean, Sean especially knows this. I mean, Timeless and Dennis and Julie was my whole life. And I recently have been trying to have some work-life balance. And recently, you know what I did? You will love this because it shows your influence on me. I went to a cigar store.

Yeah.

And it's fun. And I found one where you don't have to pay a fee to go into the smoking room. It's actually kind of a small one. And I go in, and maybe it's the guys' thing. It's really fun. They love me. I come in maybe twice a week, and I'll open the door and I'll go, what's up, gentlemen? Who's the girl on the docket today? Who broke our heart? Who's bitching and whining to their— tell me about the broads. And I'll sit down, I'll go, gentlemen, what's What's going on? What sport? And they think it's hilarious. And I'm not doing it— I mean, I don't have a camera crew on me, obviously. I'm not doing it for Instagram to be like, I'm so cool and quirky and I have such a rich life and I'm so fun that I go to cigar— you know, I could do the whole like post myself with a cigar as all the girls do. You know, you need to show that you're out and about. I don't do it for that reason. I do it for Julie. I do it because it makes me feel silly. It makes me feel like I like myself. It makes me feel fun, and I go home and I'm happy. Nobody knows. I hadn't told anyone in my life that I do that until right now because it's my relationship with myself. Yeah, I'm making— I'm reminding why I like Julie and who Julie is, and then I think I'm better when I come into this show. I think I'm better when I come into my life because I know Julie. I don't think a lot of people know themselves. They don't spend time with themselves. They spend time doing what they think they should do so that other people on Instagram think that they have a cool life, and they don't.

Know yourself is a big one. Means you have to know your nature, and I don't think people do, because then you would know what you have to battle. You, you can't be a better person if you don't know what the raw material is, right? How do you make a good person if there's no raw material? But that's another subject entirely. It— the, the— how did— why did we even get on to this about being an individual? It's— but it's, it's so important, by the way. So back to my, my pet peeve, clo— Yeah, about the books that they haven't read and so on. But my pet peeve is clothing. You know, I fly almost every week of the year. I certainly fly 100 times a year, so that would be twice— average twice a week. I'm on 100 planes a year, I'm sure. So I'm almost always in a shirt and tie, never a jacket. It's too warm. And very often the flight attendant, male or female, will comment on how much they like the fact that I'm dressing classy for the flight. On occasion, I even feel I get special attention. I'm not saying they know, you know, Dennis Prager. It's just this man who was dressed up on a flight. And then I'm I'm in first class, so I see everybody coming onto the plane. And the very vast majority of them are dressed as if they were going to the beach. I mean, they're not wearing a bathing suit, but you know.

Oh, I know.

But you know what I mean? Of course. I'm saying, you know, jeans and t-shirts.

But it's because we talked about this on a Dennis and Julie, sardines will act like sardines.

Okay, but if you're a sardine who acts like a sardine, then you're not an individual. That's the subject of this podcast. So that's what you want. If you want to be an individual, start acting differently than the masses.

Oh, 100%. I've been— I have been thinking about this so much because what, what I am trying to do right now at 24 years old is just steer myself really well in life. Yeah, you know, I just— I, I'm just trying to steer myself. And so I, I have thought about this, and I actually wrote down a list the other day. Who, who is Julie? What are things that Julie will do at all times? And one of the ones I wrote was, I will wear elevated clothing everywhere I go.

You did?

Yes. And I will do so in my own— I, I've tried to do this and then I haven't, and I will try my best to do so in my own apartment.

Wow.

I, you know, because I wear PJs all day. Like, I love wearing— I, I will go home and just put on PJs even if it's 2 o'clock in the afternoon. And then if I'm going out later, I'll change. My default is to go back into PJs. And I'm actually trying to work on wearing day clothing that, that is casual, but it'll have an effect on you. It's signal, you know, what is an This is, yes, I think like people, I think it's cool to write a list and follow it. Sort of treat it like your class curriculum or your study guide, things that you have to do. Like I tell myself, pray every morning, listen to non-rap music, wear great outfits all the time. And then you actually become more of an individual.

You're into rap music?

I am.

That's so interesting.

It's so weird. I love rap music. I love Drake. I love Kanye. I love Lil Wayne. I love—

this is so interesting.

Yeah, I know. I have delinquent music taste. And I really— but I, you know what? I actually need your help with this. And I want songs that really inspire and elevate me. And I'm trying to move more to that. This is so embarrassing, but one of the songs that I call one of my classy songs is Mr. Blue Sky.

Sean, you know Mr. Blue Sky?

It's one of my classy ones because it's not Lil Wayne rapping about his gallivants. I love rap.

Okay.

It's fun. Do you— you don't listen to any rap ever?

Well, it's not music to me.

Hmm.

So I— anyway, I'm not a lyrics man. I'm almost abnormal that way, you know?

Okay. I know I'm making—

oh, she— wait, we got it. Hold on.

Go to the middle of the song. Sun is shining in the sky, there ain't a cloud inside. Go to the middle. This is the best part.

This is rap.

He thinks this is rap.

No, I'm asking you.

I thought you were in my class.

Yeah, this is a great song.

Yeah.

I thought you were going to give me an example of rap and then say, Dennis, this is why I like it so much. I'd have to give you a drink.

You know, I'm trying. I'm trying to listen to music that gives me a more range of human emotions.

Right.

And, and I think the rap, the rap emotion is very like you walk into a room, you walk into a stadium and everyone's yelling your name. I'm trying to listen to more music that that actually, I know it sounds corny, that reminds me of the enchanting in life. This is amazing because your life is very different. Because, because you have not— you don't know the influences of people. And I think this is what makes this podcast special. I know the influences that my generation is being bombarded with on social media and music, and that's why I saw it when I sought out you. It was so incredible. The wisdom that you were sharing was so incredible because it was a way to cut through all the mud. And we're not like, okay, do you— what do you think? Muck. Do you— when you're listening to a song, yeah. Do you think of the tragedy in life? Do you think of like marriage? Like, what do you—

I think of the tragedy in life with classical music.

Okay. See, that's important. That's so important. I don't know if many of us listen to music that makes us think of tragedy in life.

Huh. What is this? What is the genre?

This is Hotline Bling.

No, no, no.

Drake.

Is this rap?

This is like a Julie song.

This is not rap, right?

It could only mean one thing. Ever since I left the city, you reputation for yourself now, isn't it really good? This is like a— no, I like more. I like— oh my God, Sean's cracking up. Okay, wait, let me think of one. I can actually pull up one. God, this Dennis and Julie, man, it's hilarious.

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Okay, Dennis. All right. Ready?

Yeah.

Play Plain Jane. Play Plain Jane. Ride with the Mob. Hum to Allah. Check You and Me.

Wait, I feel stupid. Have anything— has anything you've played qualified as rap?

Oh my, I don't know.

Yeah, this is— check in with me and do your job.

You like it?

Go ahead and like it.

Oh my God, help me. This is like a— this is like a college song. Look at him. myphdweightloss.com myphdweightloss.com just That I can't keep out, got me singing like na na na na every day. Got my iPod stuck on replay, replay. Shorties like a melody in my head that I can't keep out, got me singing like, hey, na na na na.

It's just such a good song.

I like it.

I like it. I do. Yes, I've liked pretty much all of your selections.

No, he's like plain Jane, but it's, it's a badass.

Copyright infringement, that's the name of this episode.

Yeah, it's funny, but it's bad. I, I like badass music.

See, well, this is not— okay, maybe it's badass music. The stuff I don't like, I think it has a name, grunge. Does that make any sense?

Yeah, no, no, no, I don't do that either.

That's not— I don't see a melody there. There was, there was essentially a melody here. The answer on individual, if you, if one wants to become one, pursue something that most people your age don't. That's where hobbies might come in.

That, that But not for Instagram.

What does that mean? Oh, not in order to illustrate it on Instagram.

Don't do something that nobody watching you— that has nothing to do with what other— you know what, do something. This is how you really know. Don't tell anybody about it. Do an experiment with yourself.

Well, um, I wonder if it would work Would it work?

Hmm, I don't know. I think that we, I think that we are so— I think that my generation has been so used to broadcasting, and I, and, and I actually am not trying to be mean.

Popular is the antidote to individuality. You can't seek the, the curse of humanity, or one curse You know, people say— the people— New Testament says the love of money is the root of all evil. There are a number of roots. The one root of evil is the pursuit of being liked by everybody.

Yes, it is. One of the things that I have come to understand as I've gotten older is that if you are doing something noble in life and if you're doing something truly as an individual, it is a guarantee that you are going to be disliked. If you're not disliked, that's actually strange. That means that you're not doing— that means that— I mean, who is liked by everybody? It's impossible. If you are not— if— I mean, you shouldn't endeavor to be disliked, but I actually think it's a good sign that there are people who hate you. I'm being serious.

She's right. I know.

I have to stand for something.

Yes.

It like, of course.

A certain level of conformity necessary in society. Yes. It's a tough— he says, isn't a certain level of conformity necessary?

Yes, of course. You have moral conformity. You have moral conformity.

Well, no, no. Well, you want moral nonconformity too. Depends on the society. Right.

That's true.

That's true. In Germany, you wanted moral nonconformity.

Of course. Of course. Of course. In a Judeo-Christian free American society.

Yeah, these are all complex issues because people— you know what we should discuss? This has really been— it's been on my mind since I was your age because I could prove it because one of the chapters of the Nine Questions People Ask About Judaism, which I wrote at your age, is if religion is supposed to make people better, how do you account for unethical religious people. It bothered me. The thing— it actually bothers me 100 times more when a religious person acts poorly than when an atheist acts poorly.

Why?

Because the atheist has not brought a bad name onto religion. And I don't— I believe that religion is the only vehicle ultimately that that can make better people.

Okay. Here is why it may bother you. And here's why it also bothers me when a religious person acts unethically, poorly, as compared to an atheist. Okay. So I have been fascinated by the question of— okay, I'll give you an example, a particularly controversial example. The other day, tragically and horrifically, Hamas executed 6 Israeli hostages. Including one Israeli-American. And so much of the reaction of the United States populace and a lot of the West was to blame Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

Right.

And to blame Israel. Now, look, you can like or dislike Bibi Netanyahu. You can like or dislike Israel's response to October 7th. You can have your opinions about that. But to me, it is quite bizarre to look at Hamas, which executed 6 people by shooting them in the head. They held these hostages underground for over 300 days. I mean, one of them lost his arm in a grenade. You know, they shoot them execution style in the back of the head. And the outrage is funneled at Israel and not at Hamas. And I realized that there's a reason for this.

Yeah.

It's because Israel claims to stand for something. Israel actually stands for something. And this is— but when Hamas doesn't stand for anything, they're not judged against anything. It's like, oh yeah, that's Hamas. It's the same way when a religious man has an affair, it's a much bigger deal and more hypocritical than if a secular man has an affair. The crime is the same. Somebody cheated on his wife.

An atheist can't be a hypocrite, but think only a religious person.

Exactly. And you're punished for standing for something because it's very stark the way that you deviated. If you're a religious person and you believe in fidelity and faithfulness, it It's more stark of a contrast when you do not live up to those standards than when someone who doesn't even stand for those standards does that. But we have to be aware of that in our society, and we're seeing it right here. I mean, this is what Putin does, and this is what China does. They say, oh, the West is hypocritical. I read Chinese Communist Party propaganda on my show recently. They go, oh, the hypocritical capitalist West.

That's right, yes. Or they preach human rights. Yes, and then free speech.

And it's like, well, at least even if we're falling short, which of course we do, right? At least we're standing for something. You don't even allow any free speech. It's ridiculous.

Yes, you got it right.

So yes, be an individual. Individuals are fun. I try. And also, maybe we can close on this. The way that I I think, become more of an individual is surrounding myself by them. Individuals feed off of individuals. You feel more—

that's a good point.

You feel more courage to be you when you're seeing— and you admire someone for being different too.

Yeah, well, that— that you shun— he's saying you shun fake people from your life. That's it. That is a product of your being an individual, then it becomes effortless. Anyway, it's— you're right. I raised my kids, and this will be my, my parting point. I raised my kids, and I, again, I marched to the beat of a different drum. I told my kids, I don't care what your grades are. How many middle-class, upper-middle-class parents say that to their kids? I don't care what your grades are. I only care what your character is. And by the way, in the— I didn't, I didn't know if it would work. I, I only knew that's the only way I can authentically raise a child, because I didn't care what their grades were. I only did care what their character was.

See, I would, I would really care what my kids' grades are. Yeah, I want them to work, right?

I understand, but being lazy is a bad character. So, but what if they worked at something else?

Okay, that's fair.

Oh, okay, fine. I, I, I didn't work at school. I did work at other things which have been with me all of my life— the languages and the music in particular. You have a funny— he has to say he has a fun way to end the show. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Before he says it, let's take a bet. Do you think it will be a fun way to end the show?

I do.

I actually do. I will bet you $5 that it— he's wrong.

He's going to play something. Let's hear it.

Okay.

In the honor of me liking rap.

In the honor of Julie liking rap.

Oh my gosh, yes. Play this. In 2017. All right, just turn it up.

This was from 2017. This is 7 years ago. Hey, yo, my pen and paper caused a chain reaction. To get your brain relaxin', a zany actin' maniac in action. A brainiac in fact, son, you mainly lack attraction. You look insanely whack when just a fraction of my tracks run. My rhyming skills got you climbing hills. I travel through your mind into your spine like siren drills. I'm sliming grills of roaches with spray that disinfects and twisting necks of rappers till their spinal column disconnects. Put this in Dex and check the monologue. Turn your system on. And there was no music when I did this. This is the season for noise pollution contamination examination of more cartoons than animation.

Damn.

Lamination of narration hits the snare and bass in a track for duck rapper interrogation. When I declare invasion, there ain't no time to be startin' gazing. I turn the stage into a barren wasteland. I'm infinite.

Wow, Dennis has bars.

What does that mean, Dennis has bars?

We'll end on that. He'll just have to— he'll just have to figure it out. Dennis, how can they reach us? By having me tell. Yes. That was fun.

So do I owe her $5? But she didn't take the bet.

You can reach us at julie@julie-hartman.com. How many times did you hit the mic today?

Once.

Okay.

Yeah.

I'm trying to remember our Instagrams and Twitters. Can you remember them? The whole episode we've been talking about social media. You can follow me, whatever, on Instagram @JulieRHardman. I do respond to direct messages and post good things worthy of your time. And you can follow Dennis at @TheDennisPrager and Dennis Prager on Twitter and DennisPrager.com and PragerU and probably all these other things. But just email me. I love hearing from you.

Oh, I got a message, by the way. Oh, whatever your religion or no religion, I conduct services for the high holiest days in Jewish calendar, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, every year. I have it for 17 years. People of all faiths attend. Go to pragerhighholidays.com, pragerhighholidays.com, and you could also watch it streamed through Salem.

You also may see an appearance from Julie.

Really?

Yeah, I come every year.

Wow.

Bye! Great to be with you!

Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits three ways. One-third chooses the dog, one-third chooses the stranger, and one-third aren't sure.

Why?

Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define on right and wrong. But if morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions. And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality and why Judeo-Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, you are in effect affirming God.

If There Is No God by Dennis Prager, available now at PragerStore.com. That's PragerStore.com.