Whiny and Spoiled

Your dog and a stranger are drowning. You can only save one. Who do you choose? Dennis Prager says your answer reveals everything about how you define right and wrong. In his new book, If There Is No God, Prager exposes the danger of emotion-based morality and why without objective truth, society descends into chaos. This isn't a religious book. It's a rational case for moral clarity in a confused age. If There Is No God from Dennis Prager. Order now at PragerStore.com.

Hi everybody, Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. Dennis and Julie. I don't know if you can— you got to be able to tell if you're watching because we have different backgrounds. I am in St. Louis, Missouri, and Julie is back home in the founding studio, in the central studio in LA. But it looks good, doesn't it? It looks, it looks, uh, it's not like when you were in your college dorm room.

Oh gosh, I remember throwing all of my items to the side to get them out of the frame of the shot. I actually we needed the computer to be lifted so that I wasn't, you know, I wasn't looking down and I would stack like my textbooks. It was— the whole point is it was a very shanty setup. So yes, this is a lot better. You know, I'm curious, I'll be honest with you in the audience, I'm curious to see how this episode will go because we've done this, I think, well, certainly we did it when I was at Harvard, but it's been so long. Since we've done an episode like this where we're not in person. I hope it will be good. I think it will be good. I don't know if it will be as good.

Well, so, no, you see, I admire your openness because most programs or podcast shows would not acknowledge ambivalence with regards to any of the quality of the program. So I'm of two minds on this matter. I happen to think we'll pull it off, but I also believe, that's why I say two minds, that nothing compares to in-person. In effect, we're sort of doing this by Zoom. It's a different technology than Zoom, but There is a difference, but there may not be a difference for the onlooker, for the observer. There may be a difference for us. Am I clear?

Of course, yes. And I wonder if there will be a difference for those who listen. I mean, they wouldn't have any other reason to know besides the fact that we just acknowledged it, but—

That's right. I wonder if they would. Well, they probably won't. So I have a question which you don't know I'm going to ask.

I know, for the record, D&J listeners, I never know and you never know what I'll ask you. None of this is rehearsed or planned.

That's entirely accurate. Yes, correct. It's part of its charm. So you are 24 and have achieved a remarkable level of success. Truly remarkable. This is not a compliment, it's just a fact. No one can deny it. So I'll ask you something that I've thought about in my own life, and I was also successful at your age, and here's the question: Why has it not gone through your head?

Well, I don't know if you saw my reaction there, but I don't think I've accomplished anything. And I'm laughing because I actually don't know why I'm laughing. I feel like maybe I sound absurd or I sound like I'm being humble or something, but I'm not. I really don't view myself as having accomplished very much. I view myself as having done the bare minimum and I'm chugging along trying to accomplish a great deal. So maybe, maybe that answers your question. I'm delighted that you think I've accomplished a lot and I'm not, I'm not saying this in a, as you would say, in a cute way.

I'm delighted you think that. I know. No, no, no. It's a very interesting subject because I didn't say you accomplished a lot.

Oh, did he not?

I said you were successful.

Isn't that the same thing?

No.

Um, at my age, isn't that the same thing?

No. You see, that's a very— I chose my words carefully. By the way, I do think you've accomplished a lot. That is not— but that is not my point. There is no denying you can debate how much you've accomplished. That is a fair—

we could—

we— and it's worthy of discussion. But you can't deny that you are successful. I mean, you— the very fact— I mean, I feel funny saying this because it involves my saying something implicitly positive about me, but, you know, I'm sort of a big deal in American public life and intellectual life, media life. You are the only person I've ever co-hosted anything with. Let's say it was the only thing you did Most 24-year-olds are not having a weekly podcast with a national figure.

That is true.

That's successful. That's, well, that's a success. So your answer was fascinating because, and by the way, I do believe you answered my question even though you changed the word success to accomplish. They're not identical. You could be a successful— I don't know, let's say you're a successful hockey player. Would you say that he has accomplished a lot? Yes, maybe. Yeah, well, in the, in the narrow realm of hockey, and I have nothing against that, I'm a big hockey fan. But in terms of what you're thinking of life and touching lives, then he has not accomplished a lot. He's just been very successful. But anyway, you did answer the question, and I want to explain to people watching, listening, why I think you answered in large measure my question, why hasn't it gone to your head. You really don't even accept the premise of the question. That's— you don't, you don't go home thinking, wow, amazing how much I've done.

You know, if I may cut in, I, I said when I answered the question, isn't that the same thing, when you said I didn't say accomplishments, I said success, and then I added at my age. I just want to say I acknowledge that the term successful or the idea of accomplishments is very subjective. And I look at someone, and we've talked about this on Dennis and Julie, how, you know, colleges and universities will have someone like Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg come and deliver the commencement address, and they lionize those individuals as accomplished and successful people. I think for many reasons, those are the wrong people to speak to us at graduation. And I actually think that their accomplishments pale in comparison to someone who maybe doesn't have as much money or as glitzy of a job, but who has built a magnificent family life, religious life, has done well at their business. So I just want to make that clear. But at my age, you know, I'm not married. I don't have kids. I, I think I was defining success and accomplishments in, I guess, what you would call the conventional way professionally. And, you know, it's something I think about a lot because I'm very ambitious, as you know, as the audience probably knows. I've always wanted to be a talk show host. I've always wanted to do very well in my life. I don't, I don't really mean monetarily. I just mean like the best at at my field. But I think having gone to the, the schools that I went to, that is a private high school and then Harvard, and having kind of grown up in a milieu of, of people who are on paper very successful and accomplished, I think I've come to see that a lot of that is a farce. And that's not to say that those individuals don't deserve credit for how hard they've worked and what, and what they've done. That's not to say that all of them are unhappy. But when so much goes into the resume, this is my, this is my line. I know you've heard it. When so much goes into the resume, there's not much left in the person. And I think I've really come to see that, especially over the last few years. And so it's very interesting that you ask this question. I don't, I don't mean to make the, the, the answer all about me, but, um, it's, it's, well, the question was all about you, so your answer can be all about you, right? But obviously, you know, this is, I want to make this applicable to everyone, but it's something that I've been going through a lot having just turned 24. And I think a lot of people my age might be going through, or people who are older went through this at my age. What is success? What does it mean to be successful? And I ask myself because I'm so hard on myself and I never view myself as successful. At what point in my life will I be able to say, be able to acknowledge, okay, I've been a success. What, what has to be fulfilled in order for me to finally see myself that way? And I think it's shifting more into marriage, children, a great internal and private life than it is a public life.

Wow. I haven't heard you say that.

Well, that's, that's really in large part your influence on me. And obviously I have to give credit to my parents too. My dad has told me from the time that I was little, the most important decision you'll ever make in your life is who you marry. But you, you really talk about this a lot. And, you know, believe it or not, Dennis, things that you say and do make a big impact. And again, I think a lot of it too is just growing up in this world and going to these schools and looking at people and thinking, my God, you went to this university, you went to this graduate school, you made this amount of money, you started your own firm, you you know, you've been on the COVID of this magazine, you're this, and then you like, you think they're going to be so interesting and you talk to them and they are really boring, like really, really boring and not happy all the time, or even much of the time.

So this is, it's funny, I, I threw out that question. I had no idea how long it We would discuss it. But this is a very big deal for you to say this. So I'm going to do something that I don't know, maybe I shouldn't do, but I'll do it anyway. Maybe I should do. I don't know. I'm going to answer my question about me. So it never went to my head, and it doesn't today. Everyone who knows me knows that's true. I have no hesitation in talking about that. I find the idea of being arrogant is somewhat of a joke. So when I think of my life, I don't think what a success, to use the language that I posed to you. I think overwhelmingly of what needs to be done. I just want to say one other thing. Because this really calls for being revealing and self-revealing and open. So when I tell people that the fame is wildly overrated, I, I have the ability to say it. 'Cause I've reached some degree of it. And you know this 'cause you know me and anyone who knows— the only thing that matters to me is have I touched another person with good values, with good ideas? Will they be better because they read me or heard me or watched me, the fame part is only a vehicle to touching more people. Well, if you're more famous, you touch more people, but not if I'm more famous, I feel better about me, or it's an ego trip. When I ask young people, I mean really young, like 8th graders, what do you want to be when— what do you most want in life? To be famous. Is the most common answer. Did I ever tell you this?

Well, no, but I know this to be true because I was an 8th grader not long ago, and my— one of my aspirations was to be famous.

It's fascinating.

Why do you— why do you think it is that so many of us, especially at a young age, are obsessed with it?

Well, I'm a big fan, or certainly have been, of Americans. But I do believe that more American kids would say famous than kids in Spain or France or Norway or Nigeria. The power of the media struck America first, I think, with television, for example. It, it validates you if you're famous. That's what people think. And we see how successful it is with Britney Spears, for example. There's a, there's a happy person for you. And I'm not knocking her, I'm just saying she probably would have done much better in life if she were not famous.

Well, I, I think another thing too is, and I I know you very well, and I think even people who don't know you personally know you very well because you're, you're authentic. You, you, I know it is true for you that, that you care above anything else, more than anything else, touching people, making an, an influence, um, be, being a good example than, than fame. I don't wanna speak for you, but I can imagine there's also another thing at play, which I know is true for me. And that is, I think I said a few moments ago that I only feel like I've done the bare minimum in my life. And a lot of that is because I think with all I've been given, if I haven't done this, then I'm an idiot. I'm a, I'm a nothing burger. I was born in the United States of America. I was born in a two-parent household. I have lovely, incredible parents who for my entire life you know, made it known to me that I was their number one priority. They were great examples to me. I have had wonderful friends. I've had— well, it's sort of debatable. I say a great education. I think I've had a great education. Obviously, there's, you know, arguments about the state of American universities, which I totally understand. But I, but I have had a great education, had amazing opportunities. I email one of the most prominent talk show host in the country. He responds. I come on. I mean, the point is, I've had all of these opportunities, all of these advantages. And so I look at myself and I don't think, yeah, I'm really successful. I think, okay, I took advantage of those opportunities as I damn should. If I'm not successful, having had all of the advantages and opportunities that I, that I've had, then I'm a dud and I'm, and I'm ungrateful. And I haven't done anything with it. So I feel like for the rest of my life, even if I become the President of the United States, which I'm not saying I necessarily will or even want to do, but I feel like it'll never be enough because I feel that I'm truly one of the most privileged people in the world. I wish more people had that mentality. This is not said to to praise myself.

But, you know, well, that's why I did a hmm. I wish everybody did. Well, for years I've said, is this white privilege? Is nonsense. American privilege is two-parent privilege. Two-parent. That was the other example I always used. Two-parent privilege. That is correct.

But you see these people, Dennis, and this is what amazes me about the, you know, the protesters at college and universities. You see these people and they're so angry. And they're so self-righteous and they think of themselves in such this like puffed up way. And I know those are two kinds of things. I'll address the angry thing first. What the hell do you have to be angry about? If you look at any of those protesters, of course, I'm sure that some of them have gone through terrible things in their lives. I'm not saying that everything has been perfect, but you're telling me you're a student at Harvard, you have all of these advantages and opportunities, and you're angry, you're angry at the United States of America, you need to go get your head checked. That's what I said. I said in Dennis and Julie recently, I said, you know, a lot of these protesters, you know, we just view them as contaminated by extreme political thought. I think many of them are truly mentally ill. They have a severely warped sense of themselves and their lives. If you are angry being an American and being a student at a privileged university, you need to go get your head checked. And similarly, when you see these people who are really puffed up and they have this kind of, this view of themselves as so accomplished and a great activist and a change maker and a, you know, whatever, chess beater, it's like, you're not, I mean, whatever you've accomplished, of course, I mean, it's, again, it's kind of the bare minimum. I see these people who are like, oh, well, I started this organization or that organization. Well, the road's been pretty paved for you to have that accomplishment, so don't think too highly of yourself.

A girl came to a microphone at one of my college speeches. You know, they line up, and I always say, if you disagree with me, come first. So she gets up to the microphone and she goes, are you telling me that I as a woman am not persecuted in the United States of America?

Yes, that is what I'm telling you. I hope that's what you said.

Of course it's what I said. The girl is presumably, I mean, if she's a typical student, she's not working. She's getting all of this for free, either from her parents or the state or both. Or the college, so 3 possible entities giving her the— she has a beautiful dorm room, probably has somewhere an Olympic-sized swimming pool, maybe has sauna facilities, can eat whatever she wants, tonight Italian, tomorrow night Chinese, and she is persecuted? It renders the word persecution meaningless.

Well, we talk a lot on Dennis and Julie about the inversions in modern society. Up is down, left is right, good is evil, evil is good. And one of the greatest examples of that to me, which never ceases to— the irony of which never ceases to amaze me, is that for all that these individuals talk about privilege, their positions, their worldviews, their actions are the most rancid, in-your-face examples of privilege.

Go on, amplify.

I mean, my God. I mean, again, like the fact that the fact that you as a, as a female student at a prestigious university in the United States of America would go up and ask that question that that person asked you. That is the most— I said on this show, leftism is spoiled brat syndrome. If you think as a woman in the United States that you've been held back, of course. And again, as we always acknowledge, you have to like throw in a million disclaimers. I recognize that, you know, some people may have members of their own family who've been hard on them. I get all of that.

Right.

But just, just on a macro scale, Even, you know, the whining culture is so privileged. There are many good reasons to buy gold and silver. Bank failures, digital currency volatility, emerging market countries trying to topple the dollar as a global reserve currency. Julie Hartman here for Amped Coin and Bullion, Dennis Prager's choice for precious metals. If you ask Amped owner Nick Grovich to simplify the case for precious metals, He'll tell you when President Roosevelt recalled the gold in circulation and paid people with paper money, they received a $20 bill for a $20 gold piece. Today, that $20 bill won't even fill half of your gas tank, but the gold piece is worth about $2,000. Which would you rather own? Now let's simplify the reasons to use AmFedCoin and bullion. Nick's been in this industry over 42 years, and he's proud of providing transparency and fair pricing to build trusted relationships. If you're interested in buying or selling, call Nick and his team at AmFed Coin and Bullion, 1-800-221-7694. AmericanFederal.com. AmericanFederal.com. The whining culture is so privileged, you know, like here, I'll give a— I'll give an unpopular example. When I hear people talking about how they've been the victim of microaggressions or even the victim of a what they would call a misogynistic or racist statement. You know the thought I have? Even if that happened to you, let's say someone yelled out a slur, an anti-woman, an anti-Black slur. Even if that happened to you, move on. Move on. I'm not saying it's okay. I'm not saying that I condone, but we live it. It's so priv— like, can you imagine on a daily basis what it's like in another country? What people have to go. I mean, again, we don't— people in America just think that if something bad has happened to them and if it's unjust, then they have the right to perpetually whine about it. Part of life is that people are going to be rude and unkind to you and not treat you well, and you're going to have to deal with that and move on.

And just to get the story. You could see this on the internet, Pete, you, anyone. So I have written about and told the story about my wife when she was about younger than you, about 20, and a waitress in LA. So the manager of her restaurant grabbed her breasts, came from behind and grabbed her breasts. She took his hands away and continued continued serving her patrons at the— when I say that what an accolade that is to my wife, so I even sometimes I'm surprised at how sick the progressive mind is. The number of attacks on her And the responses to my saying and writing that were remarkable. Well, all she did is perpetuate misogyny in America. She should have had this man fired. And her thinking, which she told me years ago, was this guy has a wife and family. I don't want to ruin his life. Because of that. He didn't ruin my life. When people tell me they're hurt or insulted on the air, I will— not by me, just in the story they tell me— I almost always say, please understand, you chose to be hurt. You chose to feel insulted. Yes, it's a choice.

And again, that's not to say that if someone calls you a slur, they are a despicable human being. That is— no, this conversation is not to somehow give a pass to the people who step out of bounds and who do despicable things. The point of the conversation, as you just said, is how are you going to react to it? And it just amazes me sometimes. I just hear people and they're complaining about these things. And again, it's not— it's not okay if it truly happened to them, but it's like, Move on. Move on. Don't give it that much power.

That's right.

And I know people will say to me, they'll go, oh, well, easy for you to say. You know what? I've had things happen to me in my life.

Why? So wait, why is it easy for you to say? So it's not—

they'll say I'm a white woman, I'm a—

yeah, no, no, okay, so whatever woman. All right, yeah, but woman, you already qualify as on the—

not if you're concerned—

of of victimhood.

Not if you're conservative. We see that with Candace Owens, Larry Elder, Clarence Thomas, the, you know, amplify Black voices unless you're a Black conservative, then your Blackness dissipates in the eyes of leftists. It's the same thing with female, same thing with gay, same thing with transgender. So that doesn't give me any kind of protected status because the conservatism trumps that.

Talking about gay, I just want to make this point because he has so touched me. I've been following, I've always been, he's been on my show for every one of his books. He's been the featured person at PragerU Gala, at a PragerU Gala. He's been to my home, he's been on my fireside chat. So this is many years in his life. But Douglas Murray right now is about as eloquent a spokesman about good and evil as exists in the world. And that's a big compliment for me because I think I'm pretty good at that. He's extraordinary. And what made me think about it is the inability to know what status X will cause you to think he's gay.

And I know, I wish I could be. I wish I could go on a date with him.

Yes, I don't blame you.

Him and Spencer Klaven.

That's right.

Such a shame. Go on.

I mean, Dave Rubin's gay. And You know, it doesn't matter. See, what the left has done has made what doesn't matter matter. These are luminous conservative or anti-evil activists. That's really what conservative means, anti-evil. That's the best definition of it, or one of the best. And I know them really well. Dave, in fact, not Dave, but Douglas, I saw a video of him recently and all he did was dump on gay pride parades, asking as a gay, I don't understand, basically I'm paraphrasing, what the hell is this about? What does it mean, pride? I happen to be gay. That's it. End of issue. I am Douglas Murray. I am human. I happen to be gay. It is not a source of pride. It is not a source of shame. It's just it. But to the left, that's not possible. I am black. That's all it means. It does not define me. It is not a source of pride. It is not a source of shame. It just is. I am Bill Smith, or Dewan Smith, if you will. They— why do they want to rupture the human condition and make the inconsequential consequential and the consequential inconsequential?

It's another inversion. In our society. So there's a 9th grader who listens to Timeless and Dennis and Julie, and he was brave enough— he's a California public high school student— and he was brave enough to send me the PowerPoint slides for his ethnic studies course. The state of California became the first state to require ethnic studies in order to get a high school diploma. It's not into full effect right now. I think the first year it has to be in, in full effect is the 2029-2030 school year. But a lot of public high schools across the state have already implemented it. And so he sent me his curriculum and I exposed some of it on Timeless. And it was— we could do— I mean, I've done two Timeless episodes on it, but we could do Dennis and Julie episodes in perpetuity. About this curriculum and how sick and morally warped and intellectually devoid of anything substantive it is. But to your point, what fascinated me was, at least in the first episode, I was looking at these slides where the first half of the instruction or the lesson was about racism and oppression in America. And this teacher went through and, and she made a big thing of stereotypes and how in the past in the United States of America, we have succumbed to stereotypes of different groups to oppress those groups. So she gave an example of how I think Maya Angelou was discriminated against as a 12-year-old when she was like buying a movie ticket and the person refused to give it to her because she's Black. And then there was another example on the slide of this Italian American who was a victim of a lynching in the 1890s because there was some murder of a police chief and people in New Orleans thought that it must have been the Italian mafia, so they went out and lynched a bunch of Italians. Anyway, so the first part of the course is about stereotypes and the insidious effects of racism, and specifically, and she really hammered this point home, judging people based on their immutable characteristics. And then literally like 3 slides after that, there was this intersectionality slide, which is basically, and I can't, I'm actually, I get hard on myself when I can't define something because I think I'm an idiot, but I'm actually proud of myself that I can't define this because it shows that I think clearly. If I can define intersectionality, my head is a bit scrambled, But it's basically, as you know, this idea that you have this kind of crossroads of multiple identities that define you. And the teacher, to demonstrate the incredibly intellectually profound idea of intersectionality, put up this chart of Beyoncé. And there were all these lines drawn from the center with her name Beyoncé, and one of them was, you know, woman. Black, heterosexual, rich. And, um, and then the— what some of the lines were green, and the lines that were green signified what made her privileged, and that was of course the rich and heterosexual. And then there were lines that were red, which signified what made her oppressed, and that was woman and black. And it was just unbelievable to me How this teacher in the same lesson could lament the existence of a time in the United States when we judged people based on their immutable characteristics. And then she is literally indoctrinating and inculcating students to do the exact same thing. It's crazy.

It reminds me it's a little different, but it's— it does. Truly remind me my college teachers, and I thought of it then, who would say whenever the subject arose, morality is relative. There's no absolute morality, there are no objective moral truths. It's personal, personal value system, personal take. Then the next class, just want you to know the war in Vietnam is immoral.

Yep.

So I remember this was in college and I remember thinking, wait a minute, didn't he just tell me that morality is relative? How could he make that declaration? All he could say is, in my one person's opinion, it's immoral, but it doesn't make the war immoral.

Well, back to your point about Douglas Murray, it's so— it really is insulting. Like, one of the things I said in my episode when we were looking at the Beyoncé intersectionality chart was, Is this— are you trying to say this is all who Beyoncé is? When I look at Beyoncé and I listen to her, I love her. I've been to her concerts. I don't think of her as a Black heterosexual rich woman. I think of her as a badass woman who makes great music. You're reducing her to these labels and you're missing the entire essence of who this person is. And, you know, so a few months ago, I was in New York City during Pride. Month, the month which Douglas Murray so eloquently disparages. And all over Fifth Avenue, I mean, really all around the city, but I was staying on Fifth Avenue, so I spent a lot of time there. Every single store was decked out in Pride regalia. And interestingly, every store had a Pride-related advertisement. And so the one that really stood out to me was UGGs. On 42nd and 5th, they had this huge banner with all of these drag queens on it. And the advertisement was, feel heard, feel seen, Uggs. First of all, I mean, there are so many ways we can dissect this. First of all, how do you feel heard and feel seen wearing Uggs? Maybe I can maybe understand feel. How do you even feel heard? I feel seen.

Yeah. Well, hurt is a tough one, but you wear Uggs, you will stand out and people will recognize you. I mean, it's absurd, obviously, but that's the theme. But I don't know, what does it have to do with Pride Month?

So, well, that's the whole point. And I took a video of it and I put it on my Instagram and I said, what I want people to see when they walk past this, and this is the point that I was saying earlier, that, you know, the left and these students on college campuses all they talk about is privilege, but they themselves are the most privileged, whiny, spoiled brat cohort to ever exist. I want people to start seeing that inversion. Similarly with UGGs, I said when people walk past this, I want again people to see this inversion where you look at it and on its face it's pro-gay or it's pro-trans. Feel heard, feel seen, wear UGGs. But actually, that's really insulting because essentially what UGGs is saying is, I think, you know, you people walking by who may identify as LGBTQ, I think that you guys can be so easily bought off. I don't have to sell you my product based on the merits of my product. I can just put a, you know, 12 by 15 foot banner of a drag queen and I know that I'll get your business. It's like that to me is very insulting. I can just pander to you. I can just, you know, throw out this, what do they call them, virtue signal, and I know that you'll come and purchase. I don't actually need to woo you. I don't actually need to sell this to you. That to me is incredibly insulting. Like when I see these women things, like come and buy my product because you're a woman, Screw you. You sell me based on the merits of your damn product. I'm not just going to come walking in there pandering to my womanhood.

Now you have answered, interestingly, you've answered to a certain extent a puzzle. Why is merit considered a white supremacist value? It's always dismissed as a white supremacist value. Merit.

The California Department of Education, or maybe it was the California Community College conglomerate, they released this framework recently where they said, you know, merit on its face appears to be egalitarian, but really it's just a kind of code to facilitate the ascension of white people.

Look, which the Ku Klux Klan would agree with, would they? They would say the same exact thing. If you use merit, whites will succeed. That's—

I don't follow. Why would the Ku Klux Klan say that?

Because they think that whites are superior. That's, that's the implicit statement.

Oh, I see.

Merit is white supremacy.

I see.

If we go on merit, whites will succeed. That's what a white racist would say.

Yes.

And now the progressive— that's why my dear wife, whom you adore, has come out with the statement so frequently saying, Dennis, don't say that white—

that America is not systemically racist.

Yes, the left is systemically racist.

That's the Sue Prager thesis. And it's brilliant. She's right. It's— well, this is what you say on your show. I was listening to you the other day and you were talking about the Oregon Department of Education's codes.

Yeah, they say that's right.

Finding one right answer in math is white supremacy. And you're like, that is so racist because it assumes that there's something special about white people that they find one right answer to know that 2 and 2 is 4. I don't understand how this is not more obvious to people. The constant, again, as we've been talking about inversions, and how pandering and insulting and, you know, to use the terms that they throw out, how racist and misogynistic a lot of these campaigns really are. A lot of these, they're just, they don't realize that they're being manipulated.

Right. That's the essence of manipulation. Otherwise it wouldn't work. If you knew you were manipulated.

I want to say that to some liberals I know in my life, like, you know, do you just really, do you realize that you are a puppet in a puppet show and there are people above you pulling strings and you may have these good intentions and be, you know, genuinely committed to fighting the things that you deem worth fighting, but do you understand that you are being used up? I don't know if that would resonate.

No, I have given up. I don't think— the only thing I think works if you have a woke person in your family is just to ask questions.

Well, that's what I did.

You did ask. Yeah, you did. Yeah. But it's— I have, by the way, just anyone watching or listening, a column I wrote about a year ago Questions to ask to determine if someone is a liberal or a leftist. And I have 32 questions.

It's a really good one. I remember that one.

Yeah.

Well, Barry Weiss put out this article recently at the Free Press. It's called Where Have All the Democrats Gone? And increasingly there's no longer that distinction between liberal and left. And look, I will criticize the Republican Party. I always think when I'm criticizing the left, okay, what what could be said about the right. But there are gradations still on the right. Actually, we're, as you know, I mean, we're pretty divided on the right, but on the left, I don't, I don't, can you, can you identify a liberal still? I really can't. I know people who started off as liberals, but now, but now I think that they're leftists or they're, they've just given so much credence to leftists.

I have extended family members who were liberal and not leftist. Leftist. Of course they vote left. But if you were to say to them, so wait a minute, do you think that a man who says he's a woman can compete against women in women's sports? Of course not. That's ridiculous. So I say, yeah, but the Democratic Party is on board with that. That's just a fringe. It's a Dennis, it's crazy. Everybody has fringes. The right has fringes. The left has fringes. So there's always a way to dismiss what they differ with. It's not really that strong or toxic. So do you agree with all black dormitories on college campuses? Of course not. That's racial segregation. Yeah, but the Democratic Party is in favor of that. Yeah, that's the fringe, Dennis. And anyway, talk about racism. I mean, just look at Trump. So there's always an answer. There's always an answer. So as not to confront. So they don't agree with the left on most issues where liberalism and leftism differ, but that doesn't change their view of how they will politically act. So even if the difference exists, it's a difference without significance. That's the problem.

Yeah.

Because there is nothing This I can tell you because I grew up in that world. There was— I can't think of anything. I'll give you two examples. I can't think of anything that the Palestinians could do, call them Hamas, call them Hezbollah, or theoretically Lebanese, but, or any group that would cause Palestinians to say, we are shamed by that behavior. I literally believe nothing could happen that could be done by, let's say, Hamas. I don't think there is anything the left could do that would move a Democrat to vote Republican.

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I don't think there is anything the left could do that would move a Democrat to vote Republican.

What do you think it's going to take then?

I have my own— the, the answer is it— the, the answer might be God forbid, pogroms against Jews. I mean, literal violent outbursts.

But we— there's already been one and they don't—

Yeah, well, there hasn't been one like, like Jews know about pogroms from Eastern Europe. So it, it, it, that might, that might work, but it wouldn't matter. The Democratic Party would condemn it and so they'd feel perfectly at home. So I— the answer to your question is nothing. I don't believe, as I said, I gave two examples. There is nothing Hamas can do to make Palestinians ashamed of Hamas. There is nothing the left can do to move a Democrat to vote Republican.

On Timeless, I recently interviewed a woman named Monica Harris. Shameless plug for that episode. Everyone, everyone should watch it. Or you don't even have to watch my episode. Just, just get her book. Her book is called The Illusion of Division. She is a Black lesbian atheist who described herself on my show as, quote, nothing close to conservative, even though we discussed that. And by the end of the show, she said, you know, maybe I think I am conservative because we really got into the discussion of labels. But anyway, she wrote this book, The Illusion of Division. By the way, a quick little background on her. Princeton and Harvard, Harvard Law. She worked as an entertainment lawyer for 20 years. And apropos of our— the way, the way that we started Dennis and Julie, she, she realized that her life had the appearance of being very successful, but she didn't feel fulfilled. And so she quit her job in corporate law and she and her wife moved with their son to Montana. And she said that she was told by all of these people, you're going to Montana. Well, that's where white supremacists live. That's where Republicans are. You're going to, you know, you're going to have all these horrible things happen to you. And she talks about in her book and on the show with me how it was, it was nothing. Moving to Montana was, was, was not even close to how the people described it would be. She said, just, And she said, I'm friends with Christians and I don't believe in their God, let alone any God. She talks about meeting with this pastor who was called a white supremacist and she had coffee with him and discovered that just like people call you a white supremacist and you're really not, this pastor was called a white supremacist and really wasn't. Anyway, her big crusade is A, telling people through her experience that a lot of the division is an illusion. And a lot of it is contrived. These racial divisions, the gay versus straight or the Republican versus Democrat, a lot of that is being frothed up to divide us. And in practice, it's really not that bad if you just get to know people. But she also really wants to, and I admire this, combat the division that we're seeing, which brings me to this point. And that is, I said to her on the show, and I'd be curious to hear your response, Dennis, I, like you, completely despise the division in our country. And I agree with you that a lot of it is contrived. However, there are people now who I don't just differ with politically. I differ with morally and civilizationally. And it just made me think of this.

You said this to her?

I did. Yes. Yeah. On the air. And it made me think of it as you were just describing the, you know, the Hamas. There's nothing that you could tell a Democrat really that would change their minds. They would always have a comeback. And I struggle with this because I have a lot of liberal friends. I know a lot of— I have a lot of liberal people in my life and I adore them. And to their great credit, they're supportive of me. They may not always watch this show or, you know, consume my content, but they're very gracious. They're supportive kind of from afar. But I know a lot of them are those types of people who would kind of give an excuse, for instance, about gender-affirming care. Oh, well, yes, I think it's bad to give, you know, kids puberty blockers, but, you know, some, some kids may need it or some kids may be ready for it or the science is still coming out about these things. And what I said to Monica and what I'm now saying to you is I'm really confused how to approach my relationships with those kinds of people. Because on the one hand, I wanna combat this division. But on the other hand, if you really believe that it's okay to give puberty blockers to a 12-year-old, even if you're brainwashed, at a certain point we have to go, okay, you can't be that brainwashed. I don't know if that's someone who I care to know or who I should be continuing a relationship with. So it's kind of this question of like how much forgiveness, how much credence, how much wiggle room do we give people? Did any of that make sense?

I don't give much. I'll be honest with you. And my patience for people who are pro-Hamas or Or believe that men give birth, where they have left the world of reason and entered the inversion world you described. My, my, I'm not saying this at all as a recommendation to others, I promise. Anyway, there'd be no reason why I would lie about that. I don't, I don't I don't lie. It's a matter of conviction. But I think it's a waste of my time, of my Dennis Prager's precious time, to spend with somebody who thinks men give birth or Hamas is the moral equivalent of Israel. What are the chances I will turn them around on a one-to-one basis? Minuscule, and I'm pretty persuasive. So minuscule. In that amount of time, I could have written a column. I could have spent more time with friends and family. I mean, the number of other options. So, I mean, I'll ask you in light of this, since you're asking this question. First of all, I didn't know you had such people in your life. I thought they sort of on Facebook rejected you by now.

Oh, many, many of them have. And I want to make clear, none of my friends are pro-Hamas. None.

I wouldn't be. So what would you do if you had one, a sweet kid your age or whatever? And, you know, Julie, you know, I just, I just hate kids being killed on any side. So I don't see difference between Hamas and Israel. What would you do?

Well, I would have a conversation with them and I would calmly and compellingly give them my arguments.

So good. And I think you should give that a one-time try. But what I have done in my life is the reason people say, how are you so calm with people who strongly disagree with you on the radio? And I say, because I know that if I show patience, my arguments will resonate with the people listening. I never, in 40 years, I have never thought I would persuade the person calling in who differs with me on a fundamental issue. The only reason I spend the time I do with them is because I know millions of people will hear this.

Right. Well, so I'm, I'm really glad that we're talking about this because I think people, especially my age, will relate to this conversation. I know because I, I have a lot of liberal friends, but I also have conservative friends and I talk with my conservative friends about this because in our generation, The vast majority of people are liberal. And so I and my other conservative friends, we have liberal friends because of just the sheer, the sheer numbers component. And it's really hard again, because none of my, as I said to you, none of my friends are pro-Hamas. I mean, I would, there are just some things I would just draw an absolute line. If you are, if you're pro-Hamas, if you think there's a moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas, we really have nothing in common and you're a despicable human being. None of my friends are like that. But as I said, I have friends who, certainly I have a lot of friends who vote Democrat and increasingly I'm not saying, you know, that I'm not asking people to vote Republican, but I think voting Democrat is a vote to ruin the country. So I have a lot of friends who vote Democrat. And I have a lot of friends who we don't always get into political discussions, but, and maybe it's unfair for me to make assumptions about what they would say, but I can definitely picture with regard to, for instance, the trans women in women's sports or the gender-affirming care thing, people going like softly condemning it, but kind of giving this, well, we may not know the full story or well, some, you know, for some people, this kind of treatment or this kind of recourse could be okay. And so what my conservative friends and I talk a lot about is, again, like, at what point, at what point do you draw a line? And I keep a lot of these people in my life because I have a history with them, because we're able to have a friendship outside of our political differences. I mean, clearly, I don't talk with a lot of my friends about politics ever, and we have great conversations and have a lot of fun with one another. But as the moral and civilizational divides in our country are deepening, as much as I want to be an example of someone who doesn't, you know, block someone out of their lives because of political differences or who perpetuates division, it's hard for me to remember that I'm in a relationship with someone who would kind of give a mealy-mouthed excuse for this kind of degradation. But again, I know I'm— forgive me, I know I'm kind of talking in circles here, but so many of them are brainwashed and so many of them have just— and I remember I was— I mean, liberal Julie would have never supported gender-affirming care. But I remember at one point in my life, I really thought it was bigoted. To deny a woman the right to have an abortion. I remember at one point in my life when Donald Trump was running for president, I really thought it was a terrible thing to build a border wall. And I look back on myself and I go, my God, how could you be so stupid? How were you so irrational? But then I came out of it and I want to give that same space for my friends, but I don't know if they'll come out of it. So it's like, do I give credence to their views? Do I stay in the friendship and let it go? I don't know.

I think if you think there's hope, then, then, you know, more power to you. I don't, I don't know what to say. I just, I have found that on a one-to-one basis, someone who holds certain views You see, if you don't come to your views via reason, you won't reject your views via reason. So when I'm using reason to tell somebody that it's so utterly obvious that it is immoral, it is wrong to have a man who says he's a woman compete in women's sports, I am using reason, right?

Not—

they didn't come to their position via reason, right? Oh, it's perfectly fine for a man who says he's a woman to lift 250 pounds more than the best woman's lifting in the weight competition, lifting competition in Canada, which has happened. That they think that's okay means that my use of reason— it is like It would be— give a silly analogy but an effective one. You have pneumonia. We're going to combat it with a special potion of bananas. It doesn't work. You didn't get pneumonia because of lack of bananas and you won't solve it because of a surplus of bananas. If you came to your position with no use of reason, then Dennis's or Julie's or anybody else's use of reason is useless. And that's the reason I have a more pessimistic view of dealing with these people than you do.

Again, look, I don't subscribe to a kind of moral relativism. I think it's one of the many cancers in our society. However, I must acknowledge that they think that my positions are as bad as theirs are, or as I think they are.

That's true for every bad group.

Right.

You know, the Nazis thought that Churchill was terrible. They—

I'll give you an— and again, I believe in objective reality and objective distinctions. But, you know, let's take the immigration issue as an example. They really think, well, again, this is my assumption. I haven't talked to someone directly about this in quite a while, but I say with 99% certainty that there are people who think that by my supporting immigration control and a border wall, I am causing people to die, mothers carrying their children's— children's— mothers carrying their children's— mothers carrying their children to drown and start, you know, being turned away from the border and have to go back to these countries and face— like, they see my policy position on that through that lens. And again, I'm not trying to give a pass, but they really, they are as disgusted by some of the positions I take as I am disgusted by the positions that they take. And so we sort of agree to a ceasefire, which is like, okay, we love each other, you hate my positions, I hate your positions, but let's be friends and love each other. But again, at a certain point, as these moral and civilizational divides are deepening, that it's becoming harder and harder. For me and as well probably for them.

They wouldn't hold that position with regard to their home. If 25 mothers and children wanted to come into their house, they wouldn't allow it. So America is not their house. They have different rules for their house than they do for the country. And multiply it by obviously millions. I gave $25 million for the house, but give $5 million for the country, $10 million for the country, $20 million. Their argument is emotional. If America was not open, they would never have drowned, and I don't know how many drowned in the Rio Grande, but in any event, none would drown. They wouldn't try to come here and get raped on that way, which doesn't seem to bother them. Do you realize that by opening our borders, vast numbers of these women will be raped because of the, of the terrible people on, on the way to the United States? Whereas if they never made that trip, they wouldn't have been raped.

Well, I don't know, but I think they would probably be. I mean, I think they would be raped in their home.

No, no, they would be still at home.

Well, I think, I think they would be terrorized and raped by gangs and bad actors in the country. I listen, I agree with your statement. I agree with your position. I'm telling you what they would say.

That's— oh, that's what they would say. But I don't believe—

I do believe that is true.

Their, their situation. Okay. You're from Guatemala. I've been to Guatemala. I've been to Honduras, the killing capital of Latin America. And what the gangs are doing there is horrific. But you— and I don't blame them. I've said this from the beginning. I said probably 100 times on the radio, if I were they, I would sneak into America.

Of course. Oh, of course.

There is no question. Of course. And any conservative who denies it is not telling the truth.

Right.

Okay. So that's a given. There is a tragic aspect to life in parts of Central America and the rest of Latin America. It is not solved by not having a border for a country. We should allow a lot of these people in legally. I have no issue with that. But look at what is happening in New York City, where after all of their talk about we're a sanctuary city and we have to let as many in, now all of a sudden we can't handle it. We can't handle it. So it's a theoretical position that the left takes. Things based on emotion. But anyway, I didn't give— it's a perfectly legitimate example for you to give, but I gave Hamas and men competing against women. Those are not positions in most cases people can be argued out of because they didn't come to it through reason.

I think what's hard in my own life, in my friendships and on the air, I mean, I have this debate all the time as I'm delivering news or talking about a certain development is how much, how do I balance grace with levying consequences, harshness and graciousness? That's a really hard thing. That because we need both, you know, you know, I have a—

I have worked out an answer for me. Okay. It's not the perfect answer. So my, my way of putting it is compassion in the micro and standards in the macro.

Hmm.

That is, that is why when I announce that my wife and I are godparents to a gay couple's children, There are conservatives who get angry with me. Dennis, you take biblical positions, you believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman, and you're godparents to a gay couple's kids that they got through a surrogate? And the answer is yes, because they're two beautiful human beings, two beautiful children, and if they want my wife and me to be the moral guides of their children if they die, of course I will say yes.

You know what's fascinating to me coming into this conservative world? I often talk about the differences of leaving the left and coming in and meeting all these conservative people who I once had assumptions about. In addition to many, I mean, we've— I've told you that that all of these prominent conservatives who I've met are exactly the same off the air as they are on the air. In addition to that, it's been very humbling to see how many conservatives are so compassionate and giving, to your point, in the micro for our conservatism in the macro. And I remember being on the left and thinking like conservatives were these stern, unforgiving, kind of who cares about XYZ person suffering. And by the way, I don't believe that our macro values have that at all. I actually think conservatism on a macro scale is very compassionate to people who are suffering. It's one of the misconceptions and the lies about conservatism that it's harsh. But nevertheless, I had an assumption, as many on the left do, that it was harsh. But you meet these people, including you, like in person, and they are the ones— I mean, look at— I don't want to say their names, but at Shabbat dinner last week, there's this very prominent Christian physician and his wife who came, and they just went on a missionary trip to Angola.

That's right.

Where they— well, it's so true.

Conservatives give more charity and volunteer more time. This is a statistic. Listen, our time is up, believe it or not. And it did work.

I know. I was thinking that. I think it, I think it did. The audience will decide if it did.

I'll stay in St. Louis.

Please don't.

Okay. I'm coming back.

For, okay. For the sake of time, I, I won't kick it over to Dennis. You can reach me at julie@julie-hartman.com. You can follow me on Instagram and Twitter @JulieRhartman, and you can follow Dennis on Instagram @TheDennisPrager and on Twitter @DennisPrager. And we'll see you back here every Monday for Dennis and Julie on the Julie Hartman YouTube channel. It's at 1:00 Pacific, 4:00 Eastern. And of course, if you don't want to watch us and see our great outfits, you can listen on Apple and Spotify. But we hope you tune in to see our great outfits.

Absolutely.

Shalom.

Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits three ways. One-third chooses the dog, one-third chooses the stranger, and one-third aren't sure.

Why?

Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality is based on emotions, emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions. And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality and why Judeo-Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, you are in effect affirming God.

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