Wisdom

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Hello everybody, Dennis Prager with Julie Hartman, the Dennis and Julie podcast. This time we didn't even ask each other what's on your mind. I know this is truly winging it. I gotta— I got an interesting thought. It is an interesting thought. It's actually an interesting question. I have a thought attached to the question. When you come here to do Timeless and to do Dennis and Julie, you are in the presence of, let's see, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 men.

Yes.

Not one woman.

No.

How do you like that?

I love it.

Why?

Because they're chill. They're very chill. I think, I think we've discussed this before, but it's, it's worth talking about again. I mean, I, I say this as, I was gonna say, I say this as a proud woman, but I can't say I'm proud to be a, a woman anymore than I'm proud to be a human being. Like, it's just what I am.

Excellent.

—what I was saying, what I meant to say by that, I'm speaking as a woman who roots for other women. Female bosses are hard. I've had, I've had female bosses before. I've had female teachers, many of whom have been wonderful. But the female-female dynamic sometimes can get tricky. No, but the guys here, you know what you're getting every day. They're always very chill.

There is a woman You're welcome. They are goofy. I can't believe it because I have no tendency. Yeah, that's right. There isn't a woman I have asked, and I've asked many women this because I'm interested in everything, as you know. So I'm interested in, in that the male-female dynamic fascinates me. There isn't a woman I have asked who said, who has ever said to me, I would prefer to work for a woman. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, and you're resonating to that.

Yes.

It doesn't sound— what I said to you now, it doesn't sound odd. That's what I'm saying.

No, it doesn't. But, well, this harkens back to a theme that we've discussed a lot on this show, and that is that people are uncomfortable with the truth. Something like that. We've been conditioned to think a truth like this is bigoted. Oh, if you acknowledge that maybe you would prefer to, as a female, you know, have a male-female dynamic instead of a female-female dynamic, then that means that you're anti-woman. Of course it doesn't mean that you're anti-woman. It just means that sometimes men and women complement each other and sometimes that just works better. But nevertheless, in our society, we've been taught that these things are no-nos, that they're indicative of a kind of bigotry instead of just being a reality.

So for those who have heard me say this, and I say it almost every day of my life, that truth is a liberal value and truth is a conservative value, but it has never been a left-wing value. I mean it literally. It is. I don't mean it even as an attack. It's not a left-wing value. Fighting racism, theoretically, fighting sexism, theoretically, those are left-wing values, but truth is not. So since truth is not a left-wing value, if you— if women say, most women say, I'd rather work for a man, or even if I'm given an all-male or all-female group to work with professionally, I'd rather work with the all-male group The question that the left-wing mind asks is not, is that true or is that valid, but is it anti-female? Am I uncomfortable is the question, not is it true. Right.

No, it's, it's, and I love what you said that you don't even mean it so much as an insult as much as just a diagnosis of the situation. Why do you think it is that women have this competitiveness with one another? Because men, from my observation, men are competitive and they're competitive with one another, but there isn't the same ingredient of cattiness.

I don't know the— I don't know the reason. I don't know the reason.

Like, do men— and by the way, I just wanna say for the record, I have had fantastic relationships with females. I mean, I know you do.

I can vouch for that.

I mean, All of my closest— Oh yeah, no, no, go ahead. Okay. Yeah. For, for the record, I was asking if Dennis wanted to, to cough. Correct. Um, all of my best friends are, are females. I mean, I have like 10 to 15 really, really close female friends and female, um, you know, close—

Which by the way, that is what I do believe should be. Yes. I think a, a woman who only has male friends, suspect in my eyes.

That's true.

And, and a man who only has female friends is suspect in my eyes.

Oh, we should, you should talk about that.

You— oh, I am adamant about that. I have something on the internet that is at least 10 years old that— oh, you would love it. Have you seen it? No. Questions you should ask if you're thinking of marrying someone.

No, I haven't seen this.

Oh, you will, you will digest it. You— it's it. I wrote it at least 10 years ago. One of them is, does he have close male friends? Does she have close female friends? That's not the same as working with— so, but so I, I am, I am a strong about that truth. Yeah, there's something awry if you don't have close same-sex friends.

I love this example because it shows that it's You're not like a male absolutist.

I'm not. No, I'm a truthist like you.

I'm a truthist. I'm a truthist too. It's so funny the way that you're— again, you're conditioned to smear those arguments as somehow anti-woman. You just proved that you're not in saying that it's a better thing to have as a woman close female friends generally than a lot of close male friends. And I have male friends too.

But Yeah, I will say that as a general rule, meaning that everything has some— there's room for an exception. I'm not a big fan of people having close friends of the opposite sex.

There are exceptions.

To be honest, you're the first exception In a sense, in my life. But the age difference is so great. You mean our friendship? Yes, that it's obviously totally innocent. But you really are in that sense. I mean, I'm obviously, you know how close I am with my wife, but that's what it should be. In other words, your closest opposite sex friend should be your spouse. Of course.

That is so interesting. Like, you are one of my few close male friends, right? Yeah. And, and I, and I have vast majority, uh, close female friends. But yeah, it's, uh, it's very interesting. I, I, I have come to really believe that close male-female friendships can't— it can't always work.

Oh, I would go further. It's almost inevitable it won't work. First of all, I have spoken about this really all of my life since I spoke to young people in my 20s. Almost always in a male-female friendship—

of the same age level. Yes, right, exactly.

Yes. One doesn't want it platonic. One wants more than the other. I, I've— I can imagine that it— that there are occasions where that's not true. I've never encountered it. One of them wants more. One of them either wants love slash marriage, or love slash commitment, or, or, or sex, but something.

It really, it really is true. And It just shows you human nature is so the same. I mean, I know that's the most colossally obvious statement, but it, it shows you how stupid these modern arguments are that, you know, oh, there's no such thing as human nature and everybody's different. I mean, like time and time again, the same things are proven, right? And I love kind of looking at other people's lives and their experiences as, as like a, uh, as like a, a life coach manual, like to, to trace people in their romantic endeavors or their professional endeavors and figure out, okay, why did they succeed or why did they fail? And how does that accord with human nature, their own human nature or the, the human nature of the people that they were dealing with? Like, how do I kind of crack this code? How do I deepen my understanding of the way that people work? And watch the experiences of others to see what I could do best. I love that.

It's analogous to a lot— I get such joy from you. It's analogous to a line I, I, I have used since I began publicly speaking in my 20s. So if I watch a group of people walking toward a ledge and they're all falling off to their death. My conclusion is, don't walk there. Most people think, I'll walk there because it won't happen to me. Yeah, why? Where do we get that from? So here's one defining element of the word wisdom. The ability to learn from things you did not experience. Hmm. Okay.

This is very interesting because I have been thinking about this lately. Can you really do that? I'm not so sure. I think to an extent you can. You can watch. It's what I just said that I try to do to watch other people.

Yeah. But you know what? You do. I don't agree with you. You are underestimating your own accomplishment in that arena. Say more. If you— that's good. If you couldn't— if one— not you— if one could not learn an immense amount from, from others, then it would render books pointless. If I have to experience it to, to learn it, then, then why read? Right?

Yes. But, but at the same time, you're totally right. I have been thinking lately that there's an extent to which you can learn a lesson through someone else, but really until you learn it in your own life, it will not have the same impact.

That's not the same as not learning though.

That's fair.

You're same imp— of course. Look, If I, if I read seatbelts save lives and I really, really believe that, and I do, and then I'm in a terrible crash and a seatbelt saves my life, I will understand it even better. That's what you're saying. Yes, that's fine. I have no, no issue with that.

So do you, do you have an example of some things that you think that you've avoided or you've you've kind of learned through other people and then taken a different path in your own life without learning the hard lesson yourself.

Yes. In fact, ironically, I mentioned it, and you are in love with aphorisms now. I know. Aphorisms taught me when I was a child about life. So the one that we quoted right before going on the air, I don't remember why, was from the Talmud, the second holiest work of Judaism after the Bible. And I learned it in about fourth grade. And every kid who goes to a yeshiva, Jewish religious school, knows this by heart and in Hebrew. The easily— I'm obviously translating— the easily embarrassed doesn't learn. I love that. Okay, so here's a perfect example. It taught me a lesson about life that I would not have known, certainly not in 4th grade, on my own. There are people who don't know that till they're 50. Some people don't know it ever. One of the reasons that I— we did talk about this because the huge issue of taking risks. Yes, yes. So when I first conducted an orchestra I was so nervous, and I mentioned this to you, that I literally dripped sweat onto the score. I remember seeing drops of water on the score of the Mozart score I was conducting.

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I had never conducted a real orchestra, but I had studied and studied and studied scores since high school and thought maybe I could, and I took the risk. By the way, did I tell you what happened the first rehearsal?

I think, I think you did, but remind me.

Well, it's precious. It's a precious— I, I, I, I Obviously I cherish this moment. So it was a very fast piece by Mozart and I was very nervous. What I'm good at, what I'm a professional at, I never get nervous. If you tell me to speak to a million people, it's not an issue. But conducting professional musicians, they're pros, I'm not. Anyway, I actually got lost in the piece.

But this was a rehearsal.

Yeah, it was a rehearsal. No, no, no, no, that's beside the point. That's not the punchline. So they, the orchestra fell apart, interestingly, and I gave them the most honest response. I said, forgive me, but there is both good news and bad news in what just happened. The bad news is I lost the place in the score. The good news is you really are following me.

Yes, I, I thought that they were just doing it. Yes, letting you have your—

yeah, you swing your arms as long as Right. And it never happened again. But it was a real moment. Anyway, the point is, I don't want to lose the road we're on. The road we're on is, can you learn without having experienced things? That is one of the working definitions of wisdom. And I always believed I don't want to go through it in order to learn. Evil is a great example. People don't really believe evil exists till it happens to them.

It's true.

Yes, but I, I knew it really existed. Yes.

No, I— this is, this is very important because on the one hand, yes, absolutely, you can and should learn from other people's experience experiences even if you haven't experienced them. And I feel that I, like you, have done that a lot in my life. But, and this is apropos of our, our point about trying things and failing, or having the courage to fail, there's— there are also things that you just kind of have to throw yourself in and do, and you can't think them out too much. You just have to to, to learn it by doing it. And I'll give you a personal example. My show, when I started Timeless a year and 4 months ago, I had no bleeping idea how to do a talk show. I mean, I was 22 years old, just graduated from college, and I am so proud of what we have done. But it has changed a lot. I mean, we started off doing it live and then we went to prerecorded and we used to do you know, one full timeless show on one topic instead of many topics in a show. And then we did separate Julie Noted clips as news. And then now we're back to live and we do, uh, many different topics in a show. And then the Julie Noteds are sort of highlights. In other words, it's really, really changed. And it's amazing because I remember when I was, uh, near graduating from college and then the summer after college before I started the job. I planned out so much of what I was going to do. Now I know that comes as a shock knowing me. I know that you're stunned, you're stunned beyond belief that I would do such a thing. But I remember, you know, reading all these books and kind of mapping things out and listening to other people and going, okay, how does that person open the show? And, and how do I do this? And you know what, Dennis, if I could go back to my myself 2 years ago who was planning the show, I would say to her, good job in some ways, like do, do some of this. It's paid dividends with the amount of knowledge I now have. But I would say, Julie, you're gonna go into it and you're gonna, you're gonna learn. And at times you're gonna feel like it's unnatural. At times you're gonna change things, but no amount of planning that you do right now Right. It's going to change how much you're going to learn by just doing it.

Right. But you are conflating skill with wisdom. You're— there is no way to attain a skill without practice. Okay, that's fair. Who is it that— there was one— who was the guy who, uh, this is a famous writer and Uh, he wrote how many hours it takes to— 10,000. 10,000 hours. Yeah. Who was that? Malcolm Gladwell. That's right. Yeah. So when I, when I think of, of my own career, I mean, obviously I got better and better at doing what I'm doing, and everybody does. If you don't get better, basically, if you don't get better, you get worse. That's really the way it works. But that's not the same thing as wisdom. If you're a baseball player and you're a pitcher, after 10,000 hours you have a better curveball and a better fastball than when you started. But that's not wisdom. So I was talking about learning wisdom from others. There are things that cannot be learned from others. Well, look, there are coaches for pitchers and hitters. There are coaches, they can help you. But in any— so anyway, we're in agreement with that. So I have a related issue since we're talking about men and women, unless you wanted to say something. No, no, you go ahead. Okay. So this is the joy of a talk show. What I have picked up from Listeners, I mean, I actually believe that I've sort of cheated in having a talk show. So for example, I'm not the first person, obviously, who has written a Bible commentary, but I think I'm the first person to have written a Bible commentary who also had a talk show.

Because you bounce things off of the audience.

Oh, exactly. I've— what I— What I have learned— so here's a great example. I don't know how it— maybe Sean will remember how it arose on, uh, on the Happiness Hour about— was it, was it somebody who called in and said something to the effect that beware, there's a guy And you'll now know why I remember, why I'm raising this, because we're talking about men and women and women and women and women and women and women. But beware, he said, of women who are particularly close to their mothers.

Wow, interesting. Very.

So it opened up vistas of thought for me.

I love that, vistas of thought. Yes, I'll have to steal that. It's very relatable.

So I actually said on the air that it's just how interesting in the recent past it has occurred to me how many really evil people were very— men this time, men— were close to their very close to their mothers. Hmm, but wait, but didn't that person say to you, beware of women? Yes, yes. So I'm extending that. Okay, I'm excited. So I'll jump to the end about, again, biblical wisdom. Okay, there's a, there's a very famous line in Genesis, the be— in the beginning of the human condition, where, where God in effect is saying, and therefore a man shall leave his mother and father and cling unto his wife, and they shall be as one flesh. You can't grow up if you don't leave your mother and father. So that's a piece of wisdom that people don't know because it sounds beautiful to be— and you should look Thank God my sons are close to me, but they're not inordinately close to me. They love me and I love them. Well, it's not even a matter of boundaries. It's a matter of health. I mean, there were no boundaries, so to speak, in terms of warmth and even personal talk. I mean, well, there are boundaries. I'm not gonna speak about my love life with my wife, obviously. You're a pretty sick parent if you talk about that with your kid. But the life— see, life is a balancing act. If you're not close with your parents, that's not good. And if you're too close with your parents—

That's what I always say. Life is balancing contradictions. I really believe every single day, all the time, it's just balancing contradictions.

And you, in other words, you can be too close to a parent. Oh, so another— yes, it was very interesting. So a 23-year-old guy called the show and he said, Dennis, I just want to verify what was being said. My father says I am his closest friend in the world. Hmm. And Dennis That's not healthy. He's not a healthy man.

Well, it goes both— that call-in shows that it goes both ways. It's not just that, that kids need to leave their parents. Parents have to leave their kids sometimes too.

Good, good one. Well, it's true. And therefore a man shall leave his son and daughter and cling unto his wife, and they shall be as one flesh.

So, but I want to go back because this is—

that's really good. You came up. I hadn't, I hadn't thought of doing the inverse. Oh yeah, parents need to leave their kids too. Oh, 100%. For the kids' sake, even more than for your sake, but certainly for the kids' sake. Look at all the, the mothers, because we usually associate it with mothers of Hollywood stars, female stars who live through their daughters. Oh, absolutely.

I feel like going to the, the schools I went to and kind of growing up in the environment that I did, I was around, you know, here in Los Angeles, a lot of helicopter parents. I feel like I could write a book on actually on helicopter parenting.

How about Why Your Helicopter Will Inevitably Crash?

Yes, I actually think that should be, that's a good title of an article at the very least, but Let me tell you, it is just as much the parents holding on to the kids as it is the kids holding on to the parents.

Oh, I think it's more. But yes.

And, and, you know, I, I see now there are a lot of kids my age who live with their parents after college. And that came as a really big surprise to me. I live, as you know, and I'm telling the viewers, in an apartment here in L.A. I have a roommate. Who's one of my best friends from high school. And when both of us graduated from college and we both figured out we were living in LA together, it, or it wasn't even a question that we were not going to live with our parents. Like, of course we were going to find an apartment. Right. Like, you know, it wasn't even, and I love, I've said on the show and I really mean it, I love my parents. I think they're fantastic, fantastic parents. I love them. I could not live with them after college. And guess what? They don't— they couldn't live with me after.

As it happens, it's a credit to them. That means that they helped raise an adult. I—

it just— it was not even a consideration that I would live with them. I would go nuts, and they would go nuts too, right? And the same thing for my roommate— wasn't even a consideration for her. However, we know so many people who live with their parents And it's really interesting. And by the way, a lot of that is because of money, which is its own problem today that I have. I completely understand. It is extremely expensive for us to live in this apartment. We would save a lot if we lived with our parents. But I think there's this added component of like these kids who are the products of these helicopter parents, like literally don't know how to live without their parents. And I don't think their parents know how to live without them. And they tell them a lot about their jobs and a lot about their personal life. And it's like a forum, like they sit with their parents and their parents like strategize with them. And at a certain point, in addition to that being harmful, I find that to just be downright weird. Your parents at a certain age should not know everything about your life. All right.

So I want to get your input on this. Okay. I don't know. This is a good example. I don't know what you'll say. Yeah. Okay, so I'll tell you, and I know that my opinion won't sway your answer, so I feel I could say it in advance. I was on my high school basketball team. I had no talent whatsoever in basketball, but I was the tallest kid in the school. Okay, so I wasn't disabled and I was tall. That's why I made the team. Okay. Having said that, that's just a fun aside. Here's the point. This might sound odd to you and to everybody listening. I did not want my parents to watch me play.

You've said this before. And the—

but the reason is not because I lack talent. The reason was I'm a man.

Mommy doesn't come to my games. Yes.

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I think that totally makes sense as a man. I did not— when I played sports, I did not want my parents towards the end to come to my game.

Well, you did play sport. You were, you were championship swimmer.

Yes. So I didn't want them to come in. You didn't? No. By the end. Why? Pressure. Not that they put on me, but that I put on myself because it was at the— I mean, the, the, the, the more that it went on in high school, just the, the, the more competitive it got. And frankly, the, the better I got. And, um, the, the races that I was in, the meets that I was in were just so competitive. And, um, I didn't want my parents to— I, I, I felt the pressure and I so badly wanted to make them proud that I didn't want the added pressure of having them there. So I told them to not come anymore. Right. So it's— but that is very different than your reason.

That's right. And it's analogous. I'm not your parent. And it's analogous to you don't want me to be around when you do Timeless. Yeah. No, no, no.

It's so true. Yeah. No, no, no. It's a great point.

Yeah. No, that is the point.

I kick Dennis out when I film. I go, you need to leave.

And I leave and I'm hardly insulted. In fact, I'm complimented.

Yes. Because I don't want you to— I wanna make you proud. Right. And if you're there, I'll feel stupid. Okay.

So getting back to my reasoning, I was probably on an extreme end of independence in that I didn't want my parents to come to my games.

And that's very dignified too.

Well, dignity is a big thing. It's funny you should mention that. That's worthy of its own broadcast.

Yes, it is.

But okay, so the question then, forget Dennis, okay, I'm at the extreme end. What is— what do you think? I'm asking you. I don't have an answer. What do you think is the healthy, um, number of games parents go to that their kids playing?

Oh my gosh. See, my answer to this question is so warped because growing up with all the sports that I played, every single parent came to every single game.

That's right. Yes. So that's why I'm asking.

So I was just sort of like conditioned to believe that this is normal. And not only would every single parent come to every single game, they would be— thank God my parents are never like this. They would come, but they wouldn't do the following: on the sidelines screaming.

Oh, they sometimes yell at the referee or the umpire.

Sometimes. Oh my God. Okay. I really could write a whole book on this. You have no idea. That's the second book you could write in the last 20 minutes. I know. And I already have 3 more ideas.

But to answer your question, I don't think it's healthy to go to all the games.

I agree. I, and speaking of, we started the show out by saying, you know, acknowledging the, the male-female truth, um, many people smear as, you know, bigoted or uncomfortable. I think acknowledging this truth doesn't mean that you're, you're anti-parent or that you're critical of parents.

The whole thing, of course, you don't even have to say it. So they shouldn't come to every single game. All right. There's no question in my mind. That's correct. So the optimum may be half the games or a quarter of the games or whatever. And maybe there is no optimum, but definitely not all. Yes. In fact, none is probably better than all. Yep. And less than none is because you're estranged from each other. That's obvious. But that's the issue, the estrangement, not the showing up. So here is the question. This is— this I know I haven't asked you, and I don't know what you'll say. I have a theory, but I'm not going to say it first. Why do you think so many parents go to every single game?

Because of them. I think it's because they live through their children.

Okay, that would— this is very important. That's so— that's what Okay. I have a different answer. You're— I think you may well be right. That's fascinating. I just want everybody curious. What's your answer? Because they want their children to love them.

Oh, God. I don't think that at all. Again, given my experience, because I have seen these—

they— I think parents think if I don't show up at every game, My kid will be hurt, and if they're hurt, they're going to be angry at me or alienated from me. That's what I— I may be— I, by the way, I entertain the fact that I may be entirely wrong, but I don't think I'm wrong.

I think also what's important to note here—

oh, wait a minute, Sean agrees with me. That's interesting.

I think that's an element too. I, I think what's important to note here is that, as, as you say with your great mustard story when you were a kid and you realized— French's Buster, too. And by the way, I had the same thing growing up with— Everybody has it.

Yes, of course.

You think your experience is the norm. That's right. So I want to preface my commentary by saying that I had this crazy experience with these uber-competitive club sports from the time I was literally 5, and I saw a very crazy set of parents and kids. So my diagnosis here may not be the whole picture. I think what you said is true, I think there's another contingent of parents that I was particularly well exposed to who are not caring about if they're— it doesn't mean they hate their children, but they're not, they're not showing up to the games so that their child feels supported. They're showing up to the games to micromanage the child and to get joy. So, you know what, to live through the child.

So wait, wait, we now, so we have three 3 explanations. I want to control my child. That's what micromanage is.

Yes.

I want to live through my child. Okay. And I want my child to love me.

So he thinks there's truth to all 3 of them. Yes.

All 3 of which are unhealthy. Yes.

Oh, oh, absolutely. I mean, the—

these games that I would go to Wait, if I asked parents, hey, how come you go to all your kids' games? What would they answer? Okay. What would they answer? Not what would we answer?

Well, I don't think they would be honest with themselves. At least the parents. All right.

No, I agree with you. So what would they answer? What would their dishonest answer be? Because I love my kid and I know how much it means to them.

Again, if I'm speaking about the parents that I saw, I think they would say, oh, I, you know, I want to see the game. It's my kid. I want to support them. But then I think a lot of them wouldn't be fully honest that they're living through their child and they're micromanaging their child.

So wait, I wanna, let's analyze this living through the child. That's the, it seems bizarre to me. See, if you're, I said there's this phenomenon of Hollywood moms. They live through their daughter's career in Hollywood. Errol Flynn's, uh, Errol Flynn's young love in, in, in Robert Florzak's phenomenal book on Eric, Errol Flynn, and the movie that he had me see about it. That's what she did.

Oh, he's going to be so happy with that, right?

Okay, but, but here, that's very different from living through your 8-year-old Yeah, in Little League baseball, there's nothing to live through. Exactly. So they say it's one thing my daughter is in Hollywood and she's with stars and I really want to be with stars. Okay, it's completely pathologic, but I get it. I don't get living through my 8-year-old playing volleyball.

Yeah, it's, it's a very weird thing.

So do you think that the— have Now that I've objected, do you still think that that's a factor, living through my child?

I know, I don't think I know it's a factor because what else would it— well, let me, let me give you some examples to color this. And by the way, yes, my experience may be, you know, unique, but I don't think it's so unique. And just what experience is unique? Just my amount of club, club sports that I played. I didn't just play high school. I was very, very competitive in many different sports starting from age 5. But I, I really think that this will resonate with a lot of people because I remember when I went to college, I was friends with a lot of athletes, girls on the water polo team, on the soccer team, on the softball team. And I would have these discussions with them. So I think, I think this is really true of the sports world. Literally, I remember being, you know, 5, 6, 7, 8 years old and being at swim meets or at soccer games. And if a child would mess up, the parent would be yelling at the child or yelling at the referee. And as I got older and as it got more competitive, there would be parents who would be thrown out of the game because they would smash the clipboard on the floor and walk out.

Now, of course, this wasn't every game. So that's your evidence. And you may be persuading me that they're living through that.

Why else else would you have that kind of emotion? It's your—

okay, so I could, I could offer you an else. The else might be that I, I want my kid to see how much I fight for them.

You're fighting for them by screaming at them when they make a mistake? Oh, no, no.

I thought you're screaming at the ref.

Yeah. No, I think that is at that point— wait, they scream at their kids? Oh my gosh.

Yeah, I know. I don't live on this planet in this regard.

Don't worry. I'm so happy you don't. I'm just saying, oh my gosh, because it's— it was such a real thing.

Of course, in front of other people. I mean, I'm dazzled. Wait, so your 9-year-old is playing volleyball and she misses?

It was better when I was like younger. It wasn't as bad, but certainly in high school. Okay. Yes. Okay. In high school. Fine. Oh yes, parents would. Dennis, they wouldn't just scream at their kids, they would scream at other kids. You know how many times I got screamed at from my teammates' parents when I made a mistake?

Oh, because you screwed for the team. You screwed it up for the team.

Yes, I would, I would, you know, I would, um, make a pass that got intercepted or something.

Then we're back to the question. So you, this is all to sustain your argument that they're living through the child. Yes. You win in this swim meet. That means I won. Yes. Oh, God. The human condition. Excuse me. A bout of nausea is taking over.

Well, think about it. I mean, I remember during these games when parents would get really mad at the referee or would get mad at another kid or get mad at another kid on the other team. I know, you know, you don't know this world. I don't. You don't know this world.

You're in Dennis Prager world. I admit it. I don't only not know it, it is sort of like telling me that you know a whole bunch of parents who identify as hippopotamuses. And I go, wow, really? Yes. That is how my— I know. My kids played baseball through high school. They played in their school team. I will definitely sound awful to a certain percentage of listeners, I feel, but it's okay. I mean, I'll live with the consequences. I, inside of me, I was torn whether I wanted their team to win or lose, and I'll tell you why. Because I I asked myself, what will ultimately benefit them in life? If they win now or they know how to deal with losing now? That was my thinking. Because I don't— I didn't care about their momentary joy. I cared about their long-term happiness.

See, here's the thing, and I think with a lot of these parents, you can tell I have some I guess anger, because I would watch these parents be so awful to their kids and frankly be so awful to me, and it was very angering to see the way that many of them behaved. However, I also want to temper this with a little bit of grace for those parents, because I really do think, yes, part of it is that they're just living through their kid, but I do think another part of it is that they really may believe that like, this is it for their kid. And especially I remember—

What does that mean, this is it?

I remember playing water polo and there were so many parents, you know, whose kids were competing to get into college and get scholarships for water polo. And I think that there's this idea of like, you know, my kid's gotta make it right. I'm doing what's best for my kid by being this hard on them and by, I don't know, breathing, micromanaging them, breathing down their throat. I do think a lot of it though is their own problems. I think a lot of, I mean, I remember being at these games and these parents would scream at the referee and then their kids afterwards would like cry to the parent and tell the parent to stop because it was embarrassing them. And then sometimes the parents would just have these, like, you know, would storm out. And at that point, that's not— it's no longer about your kid. That's something having to do with you. I love and use all kinds of MyPillow products. And right now, MyPillow is having a huge $25 extravaganza. When Mike started MyPillow, it was just a one-product company. And now, with the help of his dedicated employees, they have hundreds of products. Some you may not even know about. To get the word out, I invite you to check out their $25 extravaganza. 2-pack multi-use MyPillows for just $25. MyPillow sandals for $25. Their 6-pack towel sets for $25. Brand new 4-pack dish towels for, you guessed it, just $25. And for the first time ever, the premium MyPillows with all new Giza fabric just $25. Orders over $75 will receive free shipping too. This great offer won't last long. Go to mypillow.com and use the promo code Hartmann or call 1-800-566-6745 today and use the promo code Hartmann. That's some deficit in your own life that you're trying to make up here at this stupid water polo game.

And including ultimate aim that I didn't interrupt you when you said, oh well, you'll get a water polo scholarship to a better college. I didn't care what college my kids went to. Yeah, that rendered me an abnormal parent from the get-go. So it would never occur to me, water polo scholarship to Yale, or for that matter Boise State. What do I care? I didn't even care if they went to college. I cared. I, I've said this, I want to say it again, because if everybody raised their kids this way, the world would solve its problems. I said to my kids, all I care about is your character. Everything else will fall into place in life if you develop a good character.

I love that. And you know what a greater theme of this is? And we've discussed this, but I've been, I've been noticing this a lot in society writ large. There's an absence of appropriate boundaries. You know, I mean, like, including parent-child, especially parent-child. We have this parent-child example. We also have teacher-child example. You know, like, I notice, look at all that's going on in our education system. That kids are going to school to learn about sex and gender and all of that. Now, people would say, oh, you know, you're anti-gay because you don't want, you know, kids to learn about homosexual sex or— I don't want them learning about heterosexualism. I want them to go to school to learn to read, to do addition, to, you know, science, play the violin, like, and then they go home and there are certain realms of the home. And I think there are many examples of this, even the way that our media steps in, like these journalists who are, what's the term? I was just reading the other day, jactivists, like journalist activists.

[Speaker:DENNIS PRAGER] That's what they all are now.

[Speaker:JACQUELINE] They all are, and they all think that they're doing the right thing by actually kind of skewing the story because they know better than you. But see, there's just this absence of boundaries. Parents used to understand that there was parenting their kid, but there was also limits at which you did not go past. Mm-hmm. Teachers used to understand, I'm here to teach a certain amount of things and there are limits at which I do not go past. Journalists used to understand. And now don't you notice like in every category, it's all been kind of rewritten. And these lines are blurred, and we're certainly not better for it.

You hit, by the way— we can't develop it now, but it's worthy of another time— you have hit on one of the most important themes of biblical theology and philosophy: boundaries and separations and distinctions. Everything Everything is about that. That's— and what we have today is the anti-distinction. Men and women are no different. That's the best example. But cultures are no different. You can't say one culture is better than another. There are no boundaries. By the way, there's literally no boundary for your country. That embodies the whole problem. Yes, it does. But this parent thing is so important. You know, Churchill said— it's a very famous phrase— democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others. So I would say parenting, or parents, or even family— family is the worst way to raise children except for all the others. There, you know how often in my life, certainly when I was as young as you, till this day, I think whenever I read about or I see somebody who's a jerk, which is not uncommon, and I think, oh my God, that man is a father, or that woman is a mother. I know. And by the way, you know what that does? This is very important for people to hear, not about me, but for them to think about themselves. One of the things that this discussion and my observation about, oh my God, that is a father to somebody, that is a mother to somebody, does is so reduce my critiques of my parents. In my brain, because every kid has critiques of his parents. There is no human alive who doesn't. And so I think, you know what, compared to a lot of others, they're pretty damn good. I didn't have any of this stuff. By the way, I want you to know, this I know you don't know, there was once in my career through college that I was very happy my parents showed up at something I did. Literally once.

What was it?

In college, I recited Russian poetry at a— So you— Totally me. I agree with you. I recited Russian poetry. And you know, I'll even acknowledge why. Why did I not give a damn that if they came to my basketball game. But this brought me some degree of joy. Because I guess partially it was, how many parents have kids who play basketball? Millions. But how many parents have a kid who can recite Russian poetry? And I thought, that's damn impressive.

No, I am so glad. See, here's the thing. I'm so glad that my parents came to to a lot of my games, and they were— and they've always been so, so supportive of me through everything. They never yelled at you?

No, they never yell at the coach.

No, they're so great. They never did any— in fact, they— we would commiserate together in the car, like, driving after, like, oh my God, can you believe, you know, Lauren's parents are this, or did you see, you know, Lauren's parents? No, it might— and my parents would stand up to the other parents and would, would really tell them to— oh, absolutely, and would tell them to knock it off. No, they're great. But, um, What was— I lost my train of thought.

Where I was happy that my parents—

Oh, yes. No, I'm so glad too. But, you know, it is— it's a tough job being a parent. I mean, I don't— Extremely. I don't know. But, right, you know, and so, again, you know, with all these crazy parents who are yelling, yes, I'm appropriately hard on them. But also, You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. You know, you're damned if you show up, you're damned if you don't, you're damned if you're too involved, you're damned if you're not.

People are often too hard on their parents.

And they— that is something that is so true. And as I get older, I see how many people blame their parents for things. And do you guess what?

That's worthy of its own D&J.

And you know what my response is? Even if you're right, get over it. Oh, 100%.

But you're probably not that right. Absolutely. In some cases, undoubtedly. Like if your, if a parent molested you.

Oh, of course. Of course.

That's another category. Exactly. Another category. But the, the notion that you are screwed up because your parents did it. How about— here's a possibility. This is a very, very important— this is worth truly, as I said, it's worth its own broadcast. But maybe it's your nature. See, we are not only what we are because of our parents. I mean, it— what I just said is so— that's right. So basic and obvious, but people forget it. You are not the product. By the way, if you are wonderful, you're not just the product of your parents. And if you're awful, you're not just the product of your parents. Of course parents play a role. I would hope they do, otherwise the world is hopeless. I hope I played a role. I know I played a role in my children's outlook on life and their values. But they have natures. Yes. And it may not, you know, this is, I don't think that psychotherapy as it has evolved, and it's a very troubled profession.

As Abigail Shrier says.

That's right, well, exactly. They, you know, the cliché is, so tell me about your mother. But maybe your mother is not that involved in how you turned out.

Totally. And, and, you know, as we've been saying, even if it's true, you have to move on. That's right. Even if it's true, you have to move on.

Even if it's true.

And I, I've said this on Dennis and Julie before, but you know, I look back on the whole COVID thing and I feel angry. I do. I lost a year and a half of some of the most precious time of my, my life in college, Zooming from my childhood bedroom for what? But I say to myself, okay, Julie, you're right. You got screwed. Move on. You know, because, because then it just weighs on you, right? You're just making yourself miserable. But, you know, it's also, I think, part of the whole epidemic of parent blaming in this, in this society is really just, it's It's a great avoidance strategy. It's a great way for you to avoid looking at yourself and going, okay, what did I do wrong in my life to get me to here? Or why am I unhappy? It's very easy to say that the fate of your life was in someone else's hands. And oh, you just got here because of parents. Or oh, you just got here because of, you know, people say racism or the patriarchy or whatever. There's a kind of comfort in the blame game. Totally.

That's why people do it.

But also, as I get older, and, and I've always appreciated my parents, but as I get older, I, I realize parents are human beings. Like, when you're a kid, it's very easy to kind of see your parents as like these perfect, yeah, functional people. But then as you get older, you realize Yeah, they're, they're flawed. Like, they were going through their own struggles.

They— right, you were raised by mere mortals.

Yes, but when you're a kid, because you're a kid— that's right, you don't—

they're not mere mortal.

You don't realize. You think that they're invincible.

That's why kids are so easily embarrassed by a parent. It's, it's, it's, it's normal, you know, how much adolescents— oh God, oh, I'm cringing watching my father do that, or my mother do that. Because it's what Dr. Stephen Marmer has taught me, this term splitting. You're either perfect or a piece of junk. By the way, people do that a lot. I, I have gotten that in emails. I've told you about that. Oh, you know, I've been listening to you for 25 years and I thought you were terrific and honest and had integrity, and then you said this and I realized you're a fraud. I'm telling you, I get that No, I know, not a lot. But so it's so interesting. So what is the person thinking? I fooled them for 25 years and now the real me came out because I said something they don't like? A lot of people worry about their weight and for good reason, and I am one of them, and I have embarked on PhD weight loss and nutrition. At the urging of my colleagues and friends Seb Gorka and Mike Gallagher, it's called PhD Weight Loss and Nutrition because they're as emphatic on the nutrition part as they are on the weight loss part. What I suggest you do is have a half-hour conference call with them. Just— conference call may not be the right term. You are having a conference with them. It's just you and someone at at PhD Weight Loss. Go to myphdweightloss.com or call 864-644-1900. 864-644-1900. myphdweightloss.com.

And as you say, what about the moral bank account?

Oh yeah, does somebody get it? Totally. That's the moral issue. Yes, I was just talking to the psychological one. But that's a very common thing in people, that they're either perfect or junk. And kids do that with parents. By the way, I wouldn't be surprised if there are spouses who do that. I have not encountered it personally, but I wouldn't be surprised. I gotta ask Steve Marmor next time I see him. I'm curious if spouses do that. Because when people fall in love, the person they fall in love with is sort of perfect. So I wouldn't be surprised— I've never thought about this publicly or privately— but I, I wouldn't be surprised if that is a factor in, in marriages going south. You went from the perfect person I fell in love with to this flawed human that I'm living with now.

Gosh, it's so interesting the way that human beings have to temper their impulse. I mean, emotions can really take you away. Being in love can really take you away. Being in love with your kid, you know, like tempering emotion that I know is your middle name.

And I am in love with reason. But reason with God. Reason without God leads to chaos. And it's a hard—

I recognize it's a really hard thing to do, especially in the parent— I mean, that's another thing I think of, like with all of those yelling parents who, like, I'm also aware— Do you remember yelling parents?

Do I? Yes. I mean, I think— Do you remember their daughter? They're— who their daughter was? Oh yes. Do you remember ever talking to them and it bothering them that their parents yelled?

You know, that's a really good question. I think for us it was in many ways it was so normal that— it's true. Oh my God. No, it was so normal. We never really talked about it. It was just the truth.

That's Lauren. We'll use Lauren again.

Yeah, that was a made-up name.

I know. Okay. That's Lauren's parents again. There they go. I mean, is that— is that—

yeah, yeah, totally. It was just like a fixture in your life.

So you wouldn't even say, poor Lauren, it didn't bother.

I think that's what I'm asking. No, we know the girl that my teammates and I wouldn't talk about it. No, it was just so normal.

Did you ever— so no girl opened up to you? No. You know, my parents are driving me crazy. No. It was just normal.

We just all got on with it. No, I never recall having a conversation like that. No. But what I was going to say is that I can't imagine what an amazing thing it is to be a parent and how much you love your child. Like, especially as a woman, like birthing this thing that is your blood, your DNA, it's you. I can, I'm not condoning that, but I can imagine, I can empathize with how people sometimes get swept away and that maybe they just so badly wanna see their child succeed and they love that thing so much. Oh, I want them to comment on this. That their emotions literally go crazy. So when the ref makes a bad call, they're freaking out. Okay.

We need to, we need to devote a session on what does it mean for your kid to succeed? Seriously, let's do that. Try to remember that. All right, I'll remember it. Okay, good. The, the problem, or a big part of the problem, is what is the definition of succeed? And overwhelmingly it is my kid got into a good college and got a good job. That, that is Look, why do parents have that bumper sticker that drives me nuts? What is it? My child is on the silver spoon school honor roll, right? That means that's what— so what it means to me is I am telling you what a great success I am. That's, well, that's my whole theory about everything. I know, I know. But in part it's because they have defined success in a stupid way. Do you, you never see a bumper sticker, my kid is a proud parent of a particularly honest child.

Well, I mean, I'm stating the obvious here, but that's because people don't value honest, society doesn't value honesty.

All right, so that's why I say, what does succeed mean? That was, that's my question. Succeed means make a lot of money and have prestige.

Well, again, this will be another episode, but I, I feel so strongly that helicopter parenting and micromanaging your child really leads down bad roads eventually, not just for the parent, but for the child. And that's right. Given your definition of success, it, it, it's not conducive to that definition. And ironically, it may not be conducive to the definition that they're striving for of material success because I've seen some, some people like burn out and right rebel. And so it's, it actually backfires.

So you think less of me for being torn if I wanted my kids to win or lose? No, I think that's, that's, I think it's a no, it was a noble sentiment.

Well, I remember, I, I know I've told this before, but I'll say it again. There was one water polo game I played and we lost 35 to 3. I repeat, 35 to 3. And it was so embarrassing. This team was just killing us. Was your parents there? Yes. They, they afterwards were like, let's get some ice cream. Poor, you know, like that, that was just a bloodbath. I remember my dad went, oh my God, that was a bloodbath. Um, and I remember in that game, just, it was so humiliating. It was just getting like torn apart. And I remember thinking, this is a really good lesson for me. You did think that? Of course. I remember thinking this feeling, I'm getting inoculated against this feeling. That's right. This is a great thing.

That's what I wanted them to have. An inoculation.

I'm embarrassed and I'm demoralized. Let, let me like learn how to bear this feeling right now. 16. That's very impressive. Oh God, that was such a bad game.

But you're 100%. Your reaction was 100% right. Oh yeah. Let's put it this way again. In the long run of life, it is better to be on the team that got 3 than the team that got 35.

Oh my God, I just felt the urge to give you a high five. That is so true.

Yeah, well, that's why I said I was torn about what I was rooting for inside. Of course I was cheering for my kids outside, but inside, weirdly, having them lose may be the thing. Yes, that's absolutely correct. Of course that's the answer, because that's what life is about. It's a lot of loss in life. By the way, you'll— I'm going to recommend a book you, which I rarely do because I know you'll read if I recommend it, so I don't want to waste your time. Necessary Losses: It's a Great Term by Judith Viorst. V-I-O-R-S-T. What's it about? That life is a series of necessary losses. That is what life is about. Wow. I have the chills as I tell it to you. It was such an intelligent book. And she was a big liberal and I didn't agree with it. Didn't matter. She wrote a very intelligent book.

I know we're almost out of time, so if you can punt this question, but what does that mean, a necessary loss?

Oh, for example, you grow up, the necessary loss of the innocence of childhood. That's your first necessary loss. It's a very good example. Yes. The next necessary loss is the loss of the comfort of the security of your parents' home. The next necessary loss, I mean, you got fired from a job. The next necessary loss is somebody rejected you that you fell in love with. I mean, it's just, it's just, and finally, the ultimate necessary loss is you lost your life, you died. I mean, that's what life is about, is necessary losses. So the earlier you learn how to deal with it, the better. That's the reason that I didn't know inside what to root for. I knew outside I was gonna root for my kids' team. But inside, I knew they'll be better off if they learn how to lose.

Well, I'll, I'll end on something that confirms that, you know, I've been talking about my experience in sports, which was not always the most pleasant, especially with the, the other teammates' parents. But I am so glad I went through that.

The—

that is what, what, that, that, that experience, the being yelled at and losing 35 to nothing and all of that.

A tough and good.

I look back and it's hard. I feel like the earlier in life, not in a sadistic way, but the earlier in life you learn about challenge and you feel those kinds of dispiriting feelings, it just benefits you longer. That's correct. Okay. I'm reading that book, Necessary Loss. Losses. Losses. That's right. How can people reach us?

By listening to what you were about to say.

That's what you said last time. I'm consistent. And I'm consistent with telling you that you can email me at julie@julie-hartman.com. You don't, you don't remember that? That's so easy. julie@julie-hartman.com.

Okay. This will lower me in your esteem. The moment you start with that, I tune out. Oh my God.

Shocking. Do you know your Twitter? Come on. Literally just say your name. It's X, not the Twitter.

Twitter? Okay, whatever. @DennisPrager.

Good. And then Instagram is @TheDennisPrager.

I'm telling you, she's difficult. She's difficult. Yeah. Yep. I'm a woman. Good one. Good one.

Coming full circle. That was impressive. And, uh, my Instagram and Twitter is @JulieRHardman, and we'll see you right here on the Julie Hartman YouTube page for Dennis and Julie every Sunday at 1 o'clock Pacific, 4 o'clock Eastern. Shalom!

Bye everybody!

Your beloved dog and a stranger are both drowning. You can only save one. Who do you save? Every time Dennis Prager asks that question, his audience splits three ways. One-third chooses the dog, one-third chooses the stranger, and one-third aren't sure. Why? Because we live in an age where increasingly feelings define right and wrong. But if morality is based on emotion, then murder, rape, and theft are just opinions? And if people feel justified, why is rioting or destruction wrong at all? In his new book, If There Is No God, Dennis Prager explains why civilizations cannot survive without objective morality and why Judeo-Christian values shape the moral foundations of the free world.

If you claim that certain things are good, certain things are evil, independent of how you feel about it, You are, in effect, affirming God.

If There Is No God by Dennis Prager, available now at PragerStore.com. That's PragerStore.com.