With Child

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Hello everybody, Dennis and Julie. Dennis Prager and Julie Hartman. Hi Julie.

Hi Dennis.

It's an odd opening. Hi, Julie. I don't normally do that, but it is appropriate. Hi, Julie. Julie, you had on your terrific Timeless podcast—

thank you—

a very interesting debate.

Yes, yes, I did. I think I, you know, we never before the show even talk about what we're going to discuss. But I did suggest to Dennis that, that maybe we would talk about this today because it was a big deal in, in my life and I think in, in the show to, to do that. So I interviewed an anti-surrogacy lobbyist on Timeless. That is what Dennis is referring to. And some of you may know this from listening to this show, but for those of you who don't, I was born from a surrogate mother. —And there are— —So explain to everybody— Exactly. So there, there are two, to my knowledge, there may be a third category in today's world, I don't know, but there are two types of surrogate mothers. There are gestational surrogates where the embryo is implanted into the surrogate. In other words, it is not her biological child. Another egg, another sperm form an embryo and it's implanted into the woman and the woman carries that child to term. That's the first category. And then the second category is a surrogate who's the egg donor. So she is the mother.

So simply sperm is implanted in her, right? Yes. It's obviously a far easier procedure.

Right. But it's not— they're not in a relationship. It's not— they didn't—

it— right. It's anonymous. Right.

Yeah. I don't know how many— I wish I had asked this woman how many people fall into the second category. I would suspect that it's pretty rare now. Yeah. For, for a lot of different reasons. But that's just to say I am the child of a gestational surrogate.

You are, you are your parents, both your parents' biological offspring. Yes.

And the situation that got my parents into the whole realm of surrogacy was that when my mom had my older sister Gina, who, as some of you know, you know, has severe autism. She was unable to carry children after that. So she had my oldest sister, Harry.

Oh, wait, but that had no relationship to your sister's condition? No. Right. It, it didn't. So I'm just, this is purely curiosity. Right. You mentioned her condition as just a, an aside. It was not related to the issue.

Yes. Well, the, she, my mother had a really small uterus. It's really complicated and it may have something to do with Gina's autism. Okay. I was just curious. She was born prematurely. In other words, after— especially after the trauma of that birth.

So it was better for all that another body be used to carry your mother's egg and your father's sperm.

That's right. Because both of my sisters are premature. One of them ended up being autistic, they think, because of the small uterus. And forgive me for—

it's going to be very brief. Sure. But it's going to help your cause of your explaining what the debate was. To this brain, I don't even entertain what could possibly be morally, religiously, scientifically wrong with what happened.

We wouldn't have you, but go ahead. It was so sweet on my Instagram. There were people who were commenting like, I'm so glad that you were born. I don't care how it happened. And that was really nice. Yeah. But it's very interesting you say that because as I have observed with you, many people who don't know you and who do not take the time to learn what you actually believe would make the argument. And I've heard this before from, you know, my former classmates, you know, well, Prager is probably a nuclear family absolutist that, you know, you would oppose adoption, you would oppose surrogacy. Little do they know that you have a child who— you have two sons, but one of them is adopted. And here you just said that you do not see any moral or religious objection to surrogacy.

Right. I just— I want to say that I was— I'm often literal. I don't even understand the objection.

Right, right. Well, I'll tell you what she said. And by the way, the best way to know The best way to know what she said is to watch the episode. So I encourage everyone to go and watch it.

Yes, and tell them how to do it because it's important.

Yes, yes. So go, so here is Dennis and Julie. It's on the Julie Hartman YouTube page. And so it's in, it's in the video section just as this episode is. And so, so yes, so that's setting the groundwork. I, I am the child of a gestational surrogate. Now we live in a world today where—

By the way, at what age did you know this?

Oh, from the time that I was born. Well, did you— you can't know everything from the time you're born. But my— I have to give my parents so much credit. They never hid it from me. And in fact, they made it such— I say it's both a huge part of my life and not a huge part of my life because I— it's not something that I necessarily think about on a day-to-day basis. But growing up, my mom especially— I have to give her huge credit for this— would always talk about the miracle of that birth, of that birth. And she would say that after she had Gina, because there's a, there's a big age difference between me and my two older sisters, 8 and 9 years respectively. And during those 8 years between Gina and Gina's birth and my birth, my mother was, was doing IVF. Then it was determined that she, because of her uterus and because of the previous births, it was not safe for her to have another child. And then they entered this realm of surrogacy, which was so hard for them. They moved to California in part because they were, they were living in New Jersey, in part because California had more established surrogacy agencies. Yes, surrogacy was not legal in most states until like a decade or a decade and a half ago. When I was born, I was, I think only like 2,000 babies in the United States had been born via surrogacy. My mom says when she would tell people about it, people would be like, what, what are you doing? It was so kind of out of the, the norm. Anyway, I just wanted to establish the situation my family was in because there are people today like Kim Kardashian and Khloe Kardashian and other celebrities who choose to have children via surrogates in large part because, and even they admit this, they don't want to go through the pregnancy for cosmetic reasons. By the way, I don't judge them for doing that. I, whether it's that you can't have a child or you're doing it for your own reasons, I still think surrogacy should be allowed. But I want to establish that in my case, it wasn't that my mom didn't want to gain 50 pounds. It was that she wanted another child. She couldn't. And surrogacy was the way to do it. So I interviewed this woman, Jennifer Lahl, on my show. She is the founder of the Bioethics and Culture Network. I believe that's what it's called. And she, within that, she has a campaign called Stop Surrogacy Now. And the whole genesis of this episode was that I was at the ARC conference with you in London, which is a conservative conference. And I was really surprised to meet a lot of people there who were anti-surrogacy lobbyists from all around the world, not just the United States, places like Hungary and France. And that surprised me because, especially that we were at a conservative conference, because I think of being pro-surrogacy as one of the most pro-life positions that you can take. But as I said on my show, instead of canceling these individuals and getting whiny and upset and feeling offended, I talked with them and I made friends with them. And they knew that I'm the child of a surrogate. And I had this woman on my show to demonstrate to people that it is possible to have respectful and mature disagreement on a very important issue. We often hear, as you know, that if you say that there are only two genders, you're allegedly threatening a trans person's existence. Here on my show, I had someone who literally is against the mechanism of my existence, and I don't feel threatened. I felt grateful that she was willing to talk with me.

That's why you're conservative. So let's—

well, exactly. I just, by the way, as an aside, there are so many kind of directions that we can take this conversation in, but one of them I want to bring up with you is the whole time during that interview, I was— it was kind of in the back of my mind, like, I don't feel threatened by this person right now. I disagree with her. At times I passionately disagreed with her, but I did. I never felt like she was again, like this whole concept of threatening. Yeah. Like, I, and I kept thinking, what do—

All right, so you got to clue me in. I'm sort of like, you know, at the edge of my seat. Okay. What did she say? I want to know. Do you know how rare this is for me not to be able to come up with the arguments of people I disagree with? That's— it's a gift from God or nature or the way I'm built. In the shower, where I do a lot of thinking, I actually will think of a position I take and immediately my brain will come up with the opposition, right? So I am about 80% of the time— I know what people I will debate with will say without having even read them. But in this case, I don't even under— I have no clue. I even in private, I asked you, was it religious? The opposition? Is it secular? Is it feminist? And I still don't understand it. Okay.

So, so let's go through it here. Here are the arguments that we got to in the show. She says that she opposes surrogacy first because she says that surrogacy is, is riskier than other pregnancies, natural pregnancies, and it puts the, the the surrogate at risk of having health complications and at times even dying from being a surrogate. We'll get into that. But let me just give you kind of a laundry list of the— her oppositions. That was the first one, that surrogacy is more risky than other pregnancies. The second argument that she gave was that payment for pregnancy is coercive. She said no one would do this unless they were given money. Now again, I have a lot of counterarguments to that, but I'm just going through them here. I'm biting my tongue.

Go ahead.

And then the third kind of big argument that she made was that, well, I asked her about, you know, a lot of people get paid to do physical things that they wouldn't otherwise do without money. For instance, we watch people scale ropes on sides of buildings. Construction workers, would they do that if they weren't getting paid a sum of money? And I said, so why are those jobs acceptable to you?

But well, did you say this to her? I did. What did she say?

She said pregnancy is not a job. So that was sort of— I felt that she—

yeah, but she made it into a job because she said it was payment. She's— you're, you're responding to her argument. Her argument is they should— that paying them is coercive. And you're saying paying anybody to do anything is coercive, right? That's the nature of payment. Yeah. If you— who would do what they're doing for no money? Very few people.

I think what she was saying, and again, I don't agree with her and I don't quite understand what she meant. So I really want to encourage everyone to watch it because I also don't want to speak for her and perhaps misrepresent her argument. I'm just doing the best I can here from what I understood. But what she said was that pregnancy shouldn't— should not, is not a job. And to me, she was kind of invoking this like spiritual argument that like pregnancy shouldn't be bought and sold.

A job is anything you're paid to do. Now, you might say that a job is immoral, but right, the definition of job is what you are paid to do. Right. Other— otherwise, so what is a job? Why is cleaning toilets a job? Do people want to clean toilets? I got to believe that a lot of women would prefer to be a surrogate mother than clean toilets. Right. Okay. So that was the argument. Yes. I don't understand. I still don't understand it. Why do you— you're saying maybe it was spiritual. So what is the spirituality of it?

Wait, I'm so sorry. Before I forget, let me tell you two more, because I know— bingo, Dennis and Julie— I'm going to forget. Another argument was she said that it is economically unjust for lower-income women to be providing this service to wealthier families. There was a line in her— in the episode where she said it's the haves and the have-nots. You're never going to see wealthy families doing this. That is the nature of all—

I mean, I agree. Paid work on earth. I mean, the haves pay the have-nots. If you, if you are the housekeeper, you are the have-not being paid by the have. Yes.

And then the fifth argument that she made was that medicine, you should not— medicine should be for healing. You should not do— you should not use medicine to do unnecessary things that could potentially put people at risk. And so one of the things I said—

well, that was back to number one. That it's risky to the mother, to the, to the son.

Right. She was just saying, and she made the argument, look at what's going on with, you know, trans individuals getting their breasts chopped off and getting puberty blockers.

I don't know why that's even, I agree.

I don't think it's an apt comparison, but she, but she was saying that, you know, medicine should be healing and we've gotten into this realm where medicine can essentially do anything and we have to restrain that. But my, my rejoinder is, Cutting off the healthy breast tissue of a woman, girl who says she's a boy. Yes. Is far different than—

it's not comparable. It's, as I said, it's not the same universe. It's a non sequitur. It's not. It's not only not apples and apples, it's apples and toilet paper or apples and newspaper. I wish I could talk to her because You should.

You should maybe have her on your show.

I'm not even kidding. I might do that because it's one of the rare times in my life I don't understand a position that I don't take. I'm passionately for capital punishment for some murders, for premeditated murder. But I understand why people oppose it. Right, emotionally and morally and whatever other arguments they have. But this one, let's, let's restate it. A healthy woman says, for X amount of dollars, I will help you, a couple, not only a couple, a married couple. So we'll remove all issues of religion. It's a married man and woman. I will help you, a married man and woman who want to have a child but can't because of the mother's physiology. I have that physiology, so I will help you to have your family. God, is that ugly? I mean, it's so— but wait, wait, so I'm very curious. I would like to ask her, let us say that the surrogate was just a friend who loved your parents and didn't get paid, would she oppose it then? That's a great question.

You didn't ask. I didn't ask.

Oh, I would love to know how much the money part plays a role in her opposition. If it's wrong, it's wrong for free.

Yep. You know, maybe next time I should have Dennis Prager sitting there with me. Okay. But that's a great question. I didn't ask that question. That's a very good one. And another thing she said, too— again, this is all flooding back. I'm sorry if I'm kind of throwing it at you, but I want to get this all out on the table so that we can really analyze it. Another thing she said was that she believes that surrogacy erases women, that essentially, like, she— okay, so at the beginning of the interview, I remarked offhandedly, I was actually trying to explain what a gestational surrogate is. I said, You know, it's where, you know, the biological parents, the egg and the sperm, you know, create an embryo and the embryo is implanted in the gestational surrogate. And I use this analogy, I said, and as my parents explained it to me growing up, it's their ingredients but baked in another oven. And she came right in and said, I take issue with that. I think, you know, women are not just ovens. Women, women, you know, that reduces women to just— and pregnancy. So there was a feminist element. Yeah, there was. And she was saying that, you know, In a lot of surrogacy cases, the surrogate provides the service, delivers the child, and then is forgotten about. And then she was pressing me, do you have a relationship with your surrogate? Do you think of it like— and so anyway, putting all that aside, that was another argument she made, that it erases women and it just reduces them to just these containers. Yes. And she, and she made it, she said something like, you know, women are not ovens, women are not birthing people. And I'm sympathetic to the argument because we're seeing now these crazy terms like a woman is a birthing person or, or no, yes, a woman is a birthing person. Yeah, right. That's right. And so I hear that argument. But as I said to her, first of all, When my parents use that baked in another oven analogy, I was like 5 years old, and that's how they were trying to explain to a 5-year-old how the surrogate—

I'm not even— forgive me, I'm not 5, and I find that to be a perfectly apt phrase. I do too. You were baked in another oven. What is the issue? It's reduced her to an oven. So wait a minute. So if your mother had given birth to you, then would your— why wouldn't your mother be an oven for 9 months?

She was an oven for 9 months. Yes, exactly.

I just don't understand. Oh, I think— all right, so wait, I come up with— I think I come up with her answer. Yes, but your mother would not have been only an oven, whereas the surrogate was only an oven, right? Okay. All right. That, that's what they would answer. Fine.

And it's just, and the other thing I said to her was like, we don't, I know that you object to these transactional terms or these, what you would call reductive terms, if that's even the right word. But first of all, they are providing a service and the, you know, these, these women in the United States, all over the world, there are horror stories about surrogacy because it's not as heavily regulated and people get extorted.

And, and I, Obviously, you know what they did in the Bible when your wife couldn't give birth? What they did, get an oven. They were called concubines. I'm curious what she thinks of that. I'm— see, I don't know. You don't know if this woman was at all religious, right? I didn't. Yeah, so I do have to have her on. I'll ask this question because isn't the concubine an oven? And, and You know, Abraham, when Sarah couldn't conceive, Abraham had concubines.

What if you adopt a child? Is the, is the birth mother the oven that got you this adopted child? Like, that's right. You know, that's right. So, but what I said to her was, look, A, they are providing a service. They, in the United States, these women knowingly, willingly enter into agreements where they are agreeing to do this for a sum of money. And so, so that's number one. And number two, I said, we, at least in my family, I mean, we don't think of my surrogate mother as just, you know, an oven. We, I mean, all of the time, sure, you're massively grateful. My parents are like, thank God, yes, that this happened. And thank God this woman was able to do this for us.

That, and that, and we, especially my mom says that if the woman had any religious sense, she would say, thank God I could do this for them.

Right. And also get paid.

But as I said, if it's wrong, it's wrong for free.

Now, here are two arguments that I wish I had brought up. We didn't have time to get to everything. We could have gone on for 3 more hours. But she was making the argument that it's again, inherently coercive to pay people to do this thing that is risky to their bodies. And I, and I use the construction worker analogy. How about football player? Right, exactly. But here, here's the thing. First of all, someone who is a surrogate for 9 months can— I mean, you have no idea how expensive it is to be a surrogate. It was expensive in my parents' day. Now it's like, it's unbelievable how expensive it is because I don't quite know. Well, I think there's a larger demand for it now.

So they want room and board, I'm sure. They want to be put up somewhere.

Well, I actually don't know about that. I think they—

Well, I know it because people who— I didn't have this for my adoption case, but it is not uncommon where the The birth mother will make a lot of demands upon the adoptive parents. Well, that's what I was about to say.

There are two points I wish I had brought up. First of all, Jennifer Lahl, who I interviewed, in my view, was really considering it from one side that, you know, it's coercive to pay people this sum of money to do this. Well, first of all, surrogates can make a lot of money in 9 months carrying a child than they probably would've made working a job job for 5 to 6 years, and it can enable them to have economic freedom to go, to go do things, you know. I know situations of other families who've had surrogates, and the surrogate wants to, you know, go to graduate school or wants to do XYZ, and the fact that they were a surrogate enabled them to do that. So that's the first thing that I don't think that she was considering. And the second thing, to your point, is that it's not just the surrogate who can get extorted. Parents can get extorted too. This Christmas, the new film from director George Clooney arrives. It's a rags-to-riches absolute crowd-pleaser based on the number one New York Times bestselling book, the inspirational true story about one of the most difficult sports in the world and the 1936 University of Washington college rowing team that competed for gold at the Summer Games in Berlin. This will inspire you. This team rode out of need— need to eat, need to sleep— and it gave them an edge that captures the power of working together to overcome odds while rowing for America. They don't make movies like this anymore, and it's filled with wholesome content that makes it the ideal multi-generational movie for the holidays. Joel Edgerton and Callum Turner star in this exciting and incredible story of courage, hard work, and determination showcasing America at its best. Believe in each other. Believe in the impossible. Boys in the Boat opens Christmas Day in theaters only. Get tickets now. Boysintheboatmovie.com. The second thing, to your point, is that it's not just the surrogate who can get extorted. Parents can get extorted too. Or it's not just—

Well, how is the surrogate ever extorted? Well, you mean, I guess, abused or financially abused?

Financially, yes. Okay. Right. Oh, no, no.

It's much more likely for the parents.

Of course. I know a lot of stories.

You want me to continue with this? Yep. You put me up at the finest hotel in Beverly Hills.

Yep. And they have your child. You know, they have you hostage and you have to do it. And there are stories. I read them online. I hear about them in my own life.

And you're not tempted. I've not gone through this, but I'm just thinking, when you know that a woman is carrying your baby, you're not going to easily say, oh, you know what, these are extravagant demands.

Well, exactly. That's right. Yes. They, they kind of have you hostage because they are carrying your child and they know that. You know, not, not, not every, of course, but, but certain surrogates know that and they go, right, my back hurts. I don't know if I can go to work. That's right. You pay for me to, you know, get a housekeeper to clean up. Will you pay for a nanny to pick up my kids from school? Will you pay for these meals because I need my nutrition? Like, again, yeah. So gosh, so, so many avenues of this to explore, but Again, the, the really, the thing that I wanted to show was how possible it is to maturely and respectfully disagree on a very personal issue. No, no, I salute you for that. And that I was not threatened. And by the way, there were times where she got personal in a way that kind of surprised me, where she said, you know, I find it to be interesting because she was asking me personal questions about my surrogate, my relationship with my surrogate mother, how much money my parents paid her. And I said, I do not feel comfortable sharing those details because— well, yeah, that's where you—

that's the one area you and I differ. Because when you told me that— forgive me, I know I'm interrupting. It's okay. And I knew you'd say it's okay, but it may not be.

I also think it's a bingo card.

So, but, but it doesn't matter. The— I don't want to let that point be lost. The reason that I, I wouldn't have said, I wouldn't have said, you know, it's a personal question, and you're totally right, it is. I would like to know what difference does it make? That's what I don't understand the question. Let's say my, if you would say, let's say my parents gave her $45. Let's say my parents gave her $45,000. It is, is your opposition based on the sum of money? I don't understand why the question is relevant. Right.

Well, that's what I said. The first thing I said was I have no obligation to tell you or anyone personal details that, you know, I don't feel comfortable sharing. And by the way, the reason why I didn't feel comfortable sharing certain things was that I haven't asked my surrogate's permission. I haven't talked to you. And I'm not trying to sound like Mother Teresa, but I, you know, this is a personal subject and I don't want to step on anybody's toes. In my own family, my surrogate mother. There are a lot of people involved in this that I, you know, so, so that I just want people to understand that's my objection. And, and now someone could say to me, well, you know, Julie, you decided to do this episode where you brand, you know, you, you say that I'm, I'm the child of a surrogate, let's have a debate. In other words, you entered this personal realm, why won't you, you know, go all the way? But my kind of response, no one's ever said that to me, but like you, I consider all the possible objections that people could have to me. And my response to that is, we can talk about someone's marriage without expecting them to divulge the details of their sex life. Like, in other words, just because you're sharing something personal doesn't mean that you have to give every single detail about that personal thing. And to your point, I didn't think that it was relevant to the discussion. We can debate surrogacy on principle. The— again, whether it was $45 or $45 million. Let's talk about your objection to money. Again, we don't need to make it necessarily about— about—

you know what? I'm going to definitely have her on because I'm just so curious. The more I hear the arguments that she offered you, the less I believe it came from religion. Interesting, because I entertained the money part. Makes it sound more feminism. Yeah. And the— because she didn't offer any spiritual arguments.

Well, she didn't. She didn't use the word, if I'm remembering correctly, or if I heard every word she said. I don't believe she used the word spiritual, but to me, some of her arguments were spiritual, like pregnancy is not a job. Pregnancy is not something that you can just, you know, pay people to do. It has this, right?

So she, these are, these are comments that are made by people, whatever the subject, and they are completely certain that it is a truism what they have said. But pregnancy is, is, it's not normally a job. First of all, we didn't have the ability to have it as a job until the very, very recent recent past. Right. They didn't know how to implant embryos. They didn't know how to make embryos, let alone how to implant them. Right. So it's academic. So it's why I'm curious, but if there's a religious person listening who objects to it, all the concubines of the patriarchs of Israel, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, So I don't— they didn't all have concubines, but it was— if you couldn't have a child with your wife, it was the norm to have a concubine. That is a surrogate because the child of the concubine was considered your wife's child, not the concubine's child.

Well, the counterargument is that even a lot of religious people wouldn't necessarily endorse that practice. Yes.

So did they. So fine. Do they think that they were sinning? Let them say that Abraham sinned. God didn't think so. Now, again, you always have to judge people within their times. I'm not a concubine fan for today. But that is an ancient form of surrogacy. And much more difficult for the woman because she is— she was not— she didn't have an embryo implanted. She had intercourse with a man whom she may have loved.

You know, here's where I am really endeavoring to be intellectually consistent. I am obviously pro-surrogacy, but I don't know if I'm pro-sex work. And I'm really trying to understand my— because one of the things I kept saying in this interview with Jennifer, who, by the way, she's probably listening, I just want to thank you for coming. I'm truly— although I disagreed with her, and at times passionately so, I'm really, really grateful to her for coming on. I didn't cancel her, she didn't cancel me. It was so nice to have someone that was willing to do this with me. So thank you. I really appreciate her. But I'm trying to be intellectually consistent here as to why I would be pro-surrogacy and not pro-sex work. Oh, this is what I was saying. Well, why are they related? I mean, well, it's this idea of if someone willingly, knowingly enters into an agreement and they're getting paid money for it, and they're doing something risky or with their bodies that, you know, leaves them vulnerable. In the realm of surrogacy, I say that they should be allowed to do it. In the realm of sex work, I don't know if I support that.

Well, providing a couple with their baby versus providing a man with an orgasm doesn't strike me as comparable. Right, but again— I know I admire you for even debating the issue, And that, by the way, we didn't talk about it on the show. The issue of the legalization of— they call it sex or prostitution, call it whatever you want— is, uh, my approach to these issues is what will enhance or decrease evil on Earth. That's— that is an excellent— that is the only way. And a lot of religious people differ with me When I was on with Catholic on his very popular podcast and he said masturbation is, is always evil, and I thought, why is it evil? It may be a sin in, in one's religion, but evil? Rape is evil. Murder is evil. Torture is evil. I mean, I could think of a lot of evils. We have to be very careful. So there, I'm against legalizing prostitution, but, but, but I don't dismiss arguments that if we regulate it, far fewer trafficked women will be involved in it. See, that's what I meant by evil. Trafficking is evil. Prostitution is sinful.

They're not the same. Why is it sinful?

Because we who have religious standards for the act of sex believe that it should be ideally within the marital— in the marital bedroom. That's why. Just as you know Any non-marital sex for Judaism and Christianity is in the realm of sin. But look, when we just read in the weekly portion in Jewish synagogues this past week about an amazing story of Judah sleeping with his daughter-in-law, who he didn't know was a daughter-in-law, but she wanted a child from his family, and she was owed it under the levirate law, which I won't even bother explaining. And he, so he, Judah, after whom Jew is named, Yehuda is Judah, Yehudi is Jew. I mean, it's— and from whom? Listen to this, this is the ultimate. From the relationship, from the sexual act between Judah and his daughter-in-law Tamar, who dressed up as a prostitute and he didn't know it was her. And that the descendants of that, the descendant of that child will be King David, then the messianic line, both for Jews and Christians, 'cause Jesus has frequently said, "Son of David." Do you understand what I'm saying?

I do, I do.

Is it the product of an act of prostitution, really? Is the— produces the Messiah for Jews and Christians.

So before people— of that is— oh, oh, I—

oh, I'll give you another one and then I will tell you what I think the point is, that it was a— it was a Canaanite prostitute who enabled the Israelites to enter Canaan successfully. She put up the spies. She hid the spies, the Israelite spies. It was a prostitute. And as I say in speeches to religious groups, God could have picked a Canaanite accountant, a Canaanite nurse, Canaanite teacher. He picked the Canaanite prostitute. Why? Okay. This is where I am in no man's land, but I sleep well because I say what I believe. I believe that both traditional Judaism and traditional Christianity went overboard on the issue of sexual sin.

Wait, okay, but I'm trying to relate this to what we were— they are—

these are sins, but I think that God doesn't consider them as awful as many religious Jews and Christians do.

That's, that's my point. So relating this to this, I guess, debate I have in my head, is it intellectually consistent for me to be pro-surrogacy but anti-prostitution?

Okay. From a secular standpoint, it's tough, but then still not related. I mean, even a secular person, no secular person is going to say implanting an embryo to produce a child for a couple is identical to a woman sleeping with man after man. Right. Nobody— you don't have to be religious to see that they're not related.

And also, if I may cut in, but I do want to go back to this Canaanite prostitute. The reason too why I oppose prostitution is I think there is way more room for women to be exploited and abused and violently harmed being prostitutes than they are being surrogates.

Right, which is an argument that the pro-legalization of prostitution people make. Now we can prevent much better, right, women from being abused and raped and beaten by pimps. By the way, if that's true, it is very hard not to argue for its legalization. I want to reduce evil.

The problem is when you legalize something, you're effectively endorsing it.

Well, you're certainly— you're effectively increasing it, right? That my biggest argument against the legalization of prostitution was vast numbers of young women will enter the field if you legalize it. And nobody can argue that's a good thing for society. Mm-hmm.

Yes. Having a child, carrying a child for a family who wouldn't otherwise be able to have a child is a benefit to society. You are bringing a life into the world.

No, no, no. It's having young women go and— you're the one raising the question, how could I do X if not Y? Right. They're not related in my opinion.

Look, I'm just—

it's fair that you ask it.

Well, look, I believe it or believe it or not, I say believe it or not, because there are people who think that I'm a terrible person for being conservative. I really want to be intellectually consistent. And one of the things that I kept saying to Jennifer when we were debating was, what is the principle here? What is the principle here? Let's go down to the principle. If you think that it is coercive to pay people a sum of money to do work that is risky and potentially harmful and potentially fatal with their bodies, Why do you not apply that same standard to construction workers, miners, factory? I was just— the point is, I was trying to go back to the principle.

Did she answer it? Yes.

She said pregnancy is not a job.

That was her argument. Well, that's not a job.

Look, I totally agree.

I'm just— wait, she— if you talk about the danger, then talk about danger. Then if you want to get into it's not a job, I don't understand. And it is a job. It isn't always a job. It isn't usually a job.

It isn't only a job. It's— I think it's providing an immense spiritual— Okay, fine.

But okay, well, so is being a rabbi, priest, or minister. They get paid. Priests get the least because they take sort of vows of poverty. But beside the point.

I mean, but, but I'm trying to go back to the principle here of, okay, why am I pro-surrogacy? But at least now I'm— and I think I say at least now because I'm willing to have my mind changed, but I don't know if it will. I'm anti-prostitution. And it goes back to the argument that you so well articulated about elevating good and diminishing evil. And also, I really, again, believe that there is far more room for exploitation with pros, even when it's regulated.

Yeah, if that— because we as people— I mean, there are two separate issues. Well, they're related but separate. If we really did regulate like they do, I believe, in some European countries, yeah, is there less trafficking? If there is, is there less suffering of innocent women if prostitution is regulated than if it is not? Then No matter what one's view, as even— not even, especially as a religious person, you should be preoccupied with reducing evil. Those who love God must hate evil. It's a commandment in the Psalms. If you love God, you must hate evil. Okay, so, and not every sin is evil. In Judaism, it's a sin to eat pork products. No Jew would say it's evil to eat a pork product. They'd say it's a sin for a Jew, obviously not for a non-Jew. So look, it's been my experience in life, most people, religious or secular, do think with their hearts, think with their emotions. Yeah. And It's very hard to combat that. By the way, just for the record, since I know how everything I say gets amplified, I totally differ with the man who said masturbation is always evil. That is not the same as defending pornography. I just want to say for the record again, I wish all pornography disappeared. But if all pornography disappeared, all masturbation would still not disappear. There was masturbation prior to pornography, and there will be masturbation post-pornography. They're not the same issue. But the— and especially young men's, uh, preoccupation with it and how they're introduced to sex via pornography. My generation had Playboy. Playboy was not— it's like it That's erotica. God gave us the gift of reason. He didn't give it to animals. If you don't use reason and you're a religious person, you are rejecting God's gift. That's how I look at it.

Well, so you said a few minutes ago that if you take a religious view of sex then you'll oppose prostitution.

Yes. Well, you'll oppose any non-marital sex. Right.

So then again, I want to apply the religious standard to surrogacy. Why does a religious worldview tell you that prostitution is not acceptable, but a religious worldview would, in your view, tell you that surrogacy is?

Well, you're not having sex with the woman. There's no sex involved with the surrogate woman.

Right. Well, so I don't even mean with regard to sex. I mean, I'm sort of asking the question for listeners who may not know a lot about what religion says and think like, oh, well, you know, I don't know.

I don't know why religion would oppose.

Let me tell you what they would think. I know, I, I know these arguments so well. Okay. People would say, well, don't Christians believe that, you know, it should be a mother and father and the mother and father's biological children and the, and the mother should bear ironically.

Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

And then, and the mother, like, they, they think that we're, they think that someone like you, a committed Jew or some, or a very religious Christian is a nuclear family absolutist. Mother, father, biological kids, mother, parent.

You can be a mother, father absolutist and still be okay with surrogacy. Right.

Again, I agree with you. I'm just saying what they, with their impression. Right.

But, but it doesn't violate any of, of the norms that they want having.

They think a norm is that the mother should carry.

Yes, that should be the statistical norm. But it doesn't mean it is. But they all— the religious mandate.

They think it is. And you're saying it's wrong?

Okay, well, I don't know on what grounds. Maybe they've had to educate me. I'd like to know on what biblical grounds you would say that it is a sin and should be avoided. A married couple, the woman cannot, for physiological reasons, carry a child, you would not have the child carried by another woman. Maybe there are religious arguments that I'm not aware of. I fully acknowledge that. Well, I'm not, but I'm not aware of them as of this moment.

Well, as you also said, and it's a very powerful thing, but there are examples literally from the first— well, not the first family. Adam and Eve is the first family. The second— or see, I want to get my biblical families right. There's Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, and then there's Abraham and Sarah. So would you say that's the third family?

No, no, no. They're down the line. It is not. Oh, I see. That's right.

There's that whole lineage. Okay, whatever. Putting that aside, within the first 7 chapters of the first book of the Bible, we are presented with a family, the patriarch Abraham, whose wife is unable to bear children. And to your point, he takes a concubine, Hagar, to have Ishmael. See, I read the Bible. I read your commentary. I'm just bragging at this point, but I'm so proud that I know it. And obviously, you know, that's not to say that all religious people endorse concubines, but the point is religion, literally from the first patriarch, has a situation where a married couple cannot bear children and they have to seek an alternative. That is the point. And so 3,000 years ago, it was a concubine. Today, the alternative is a surrogate who knowingly, willingly enters into an agreement and it's regulated and it's not Right. And taking a prostitute involved your husband having intercourse with another woman. Yes, we've, we've elevated that.

You would think religion would be thrilled with it.

That's right. That's, that's exactly right. We've taken the Abraham, Sarah, Hagar situation and made it better because the married man is not having relations with anyone else but his wife and the person is not a prostitute. They are someone who knowingly and willingly enters into this agreement. There are many good reasons to buy gold and silver. Bank failures, digital currency volatility, emerging market countries trying to topple the dollar as a global reserve currency. Julie Hartman here for AmFed Coin and Bullion, Dennis's choice for buying precious metals. If you ask AmFed owner Nick Grovich to simplify the case for precious metals, he'll tell you when President Roosevelt recalled the gold in circulation and paid people with paper money, They received a $20 bill for a $20 gold piece. Today, that $20 bill won't even fill half of your gas tank, but the gold piece is worth about $2,000. Which would you rather own? Now, let's simplify the reasons to use AmFedCoin and bullion. Nick's been in this industry for over 42 years, and he's proud of providing transparency and fair pricing to build trusted relationships. If you're interested in buying or selling, Call Nick and his team at AmFed Coin and Bullion, 1-800-221-7694, AmericanFederal.com, AmericanFederal.com. They are someone who knowingly and willingly enters into this agreement, right?

Thus far, that's why I say all the arguments seem— it's the one of it's dangerous. I mean, I would Unless again, I, I'm just ignorant, which could be. It's not an area I've researched much of, but unless I'm ignorant, being an NFL player is much more dangerous than being a surrogate mother. I mean, any pregnancy could go wrong, right?

And also, you know that going in. Again, we kind of went back and forth because I said to her, you have not presented me with sufficient data that indicates that this is widespread enough to call off the whole practice of surrogacy. Because again, we have to do a cost-benefit analysis. Every time you get into a car, you are risking that you may crash the car, kill yourself, and kill another person, or become a quadriplegic, or have something bad happen to you. But the reason why we still get into cars is because far more people drive safely and get to their destination and don't die or become, become a quadriplegic. So we have to apply that same standard. And I said to her, A, you have not presented me with sufficient evidence to indicate that these horror stories are so rampant that we need to call the whole thing into question. And second of all, even if it is the case that surrogacy carries immense, you know, risk of profound personal injury, that person is knowing that, hopefully, you know, I mean, well—

Well, so I'll tell you, going into that, in light of this issue, Here's an interesting one. I don't think the prostitution one is really—

I'm sorry, can I pause? Oh yeah. Just— I'm so sorry. I never mean to interrupt, but I want to make something clear. Okay. Because I just— I said hopefully I want surrogates to have fully informed consent about what they are getting into. I want to make that really clear. And, and, and so if it is the case in America that surrogates are not given the full story, the full data on what they're going through, I oppose that. But assuming that they do, assuming that they are given every study that indicates that they may suffer personal injury, they know that, they enter into that agreement knowing the risk, just as when you jump out of an airplane, you are knowing that you're entering into something risky. I want to make that clear because the informed consent thing is an issue that I care a lot about and I fully support.

So sorry, go ahead, Dennis Prager. No, I forgot the point.

I'm so sorry. I knew that would happen, but I knew I was going to get nailed if I didn't clarify. I'm really sorry. I hate doing that.

All right, so Sean is telling— oh my God, I feel awful. So don't worry about it. So the Sean was telling me that one of her arguments is that doctors, what, they need to— what, they shouldn't do things that are not necessary. So then, no, should any doctor perform cosmetic surgery? Well, that's what I said. Oh, she said that they should not? Okay, well, these, the, the people—

I think she said that she's okay with plastic surgery.

Okay, well, if she's okay with plastic surgery, then the argument that doctors are not doing necessary, uh, things— I mean, necessary is in the eye of the beholder.

Again, everyone needs to go watch the video.

I mean, removing, removing girls' breasts because they say they're boys is is a different category of having a nose job or for that matter a breast implant. All of my life I have witnessed moral non-clarity. That is the great bane of the human existence, the lack of clarity on moral issues. People fight fights that are not necessary to be fought and they don't fight the fights that are necessary to be fought. It's like I wrote a column a few years ago during the riots of 2020 and the tearing down of all these monuments. What was it? I think the title was, The Left Fights Monuments, the Right Fights Evil. Well, that No, it's just— I'm so afraid of interrupting you.

No, no, no, I have you.

It's fine. It's not an issue. I mean, we're both passionate.

Well, that's a big issue that I take with people. It's like when I see this, to your point, crusade against monuments, I'm like, are you kidding? Like, this is what you're focusing on? Or when people are lamenting, you know, obsessing about microaggression, it's like, You have no idea what real evil is.

They really— but that's the whole point. You have no idea. They don't have an idea what real evil is. Yes. 45% of young Americans never heard of Auschwitz.

And look, really? Yes. Oh my God. It's a Pew poll. Oh God. And look, there are issues pertaining to surrogacy that I think need our attention. And they, these are serious things. For instance, informed consent. I'm on board with that. You should totally have informed consent before you get a vaccine, before you have an embryo implanted in you. Yeah. Before, of course.

Also, before you get an abortion, you should have informed consent.

Exactly. Very, very good example to bring up. And there are also other issues. We got to this at the end of the interview where there are stories of families who, for example, implant 3 embryos into a gestational surrogate hoping that one of them will take. I mean, in my case, that my parents implanted, I forget how many, but one of them took. And you're looking at the one that took. But in some cases, all 3 will take. Or 2 will take, and then parents are in the situation where their surrogate is carrying triplets.

Well, for those who believe that human life starts in the embryonic stage, that's also a problem because the— what happened to the ones that didn't take, right? They're not kept there.

I assume they're destroyed. Well, there are situations where the 3 embryos do take, and then I think this is rare, but nevertheless, these situations exist where the parent then says, well, we don't want triplets, abort one. Really? Situations like that have occurred.

They're not— how do they decide?

They flip a coin. That's the whole, that's the whole question. And also not just flip a coin, it's, is it the surrogate's body, her choice, or is it the parent's contract, their choice? If they want to— now that's a fair moral question. And so my point is this, there are many moral questions in this issue that I will be the first one to say we've got to look at. But I think the thing that I objected to respectfully with Jennifer is if you're railing against informed consent, if you're railing against the, you know, certain, some of these moral issues with surrogacy, I hear you. But to oppose the whole practice, like in the case of me with my parents wanting another child, this lovely woman who was willing to help us do it, we walked away happy, she walked away happy. Like, why would you oppose that? That's the question I have. I just, I don't understand. And she asked me at one point in the interview, which honestly I thought was kind of a— anyway, I don't know if I would have ever really said that to someone. She's like, well, what would your opinion of surrogacy be if you and your surrogate mother had died? And I'm like, but we didn't. That's a funny question. Well, I'm here talking to you. Like, right. Anyway, it's, it's a good episode. Thank you to Jennifer in Austin, sir.

Yeah, no, I would like to have her on because it would be all revelatory to me, but I, I would, I would like the answer to, uh, what if it was done for free? Because as soon as you raise the money question, then the obvious question is, okay, so for free you're okay with it? Yep. That's— see, if the issue is money, it comes from feminism, which is a progressive/left-wing doctrine. If it— if the issue is not money, then it comes from a religious perspective, right? Yep.

Well, if there's one thing that I learned through this whole experience, it's something that you often say, and it's that we don't necessarily have a community. We have individuals who support us or who we support.

Like, oh yeah, no, no, let me explain it. Yes, because people won't know what I meant. Okay, this is, uh, this is a tough issue to raise publicly, but you did.

Well, the past, the past 1 hour has been a tough issue.

Oh no, no, this is— but we just go for it. So what I have said to Julie is I don't have a built-in community, right? I have a huge community of people who respect me and, and who agree largely, or sometimes totally, with what I say. But it's not built in. Like, if you know somebody is a Jew, and I'm a Jew, you, you hardly think, oh, they're going to automatically agree with Dennis. Dennis. If the person is religious, Christian, they'll automatically agree with Dennis. If they're secular, they'll automatically disagree with Dennis. My community, which thank God is large, is largely individuals. I mean, the largest, I guess the largest group though would be committed Christians. Clearly, I mean, I'm not a Christian, so, and, and I, I love that community and many of them love me, but what I'm saying is I don't have a built-in one.

Right. Yeah. Right. And, and I realize that here where there, it's, is especially this issue of surrogacy is so interesting because you have people on the left to your point who oppose it, and then you have people on the right who oppose it. But then you also have people on the left who enthusiastically support it and think it's awful to oppose it. And then you have people on the right who enthusiastically support it.

The truer thing to say here is the issue doesn't have a community.

Yes, but I think I just— yes, that is the truer way to say it. But I think also I, as an individual, you know, as a conservative, there are issues in the conservative community that, that, you know, I disagree with my fellow conservatives on and they disagree with me on. We're not a monolith. And this is a pretty big one, you know, where I have butt heads with— actually, I don't, I don't know if Jennifer is, is conservative. I, I got the sense she was, but I don't know. And I'm obviously I shouldn't.

So it leads to a lot of other— we ought Did we discuss adoption? Have we done adoption?

I think a little bit, but not in a long time.

Yeah, well, we— I did Blood Versus Love and Values. Oh, because I told you the story about the, the child of Holocaust survivors whose parents— I think I did tell you that, but it doesn't matter. The, uh, it's, it's a fascinating issue. Well, here is a Here's an example. You'll find this fascinating because you're not involved in adoption. I'm not involved in surrogacy. You're involved in surrogacy. I'm involved in adoption. So I, I have followed the, the, the issues with adoption avidly, and one of the most common questions people have asked me is this, is I have two sons. Is one of my— the son who I adopted at birth, as it happens, uh, did, did he search for his birth mother? By the way, nobody ever says birth father, which I find so fascinating. I mean, when you think about it, you never hear, well, did you search for your birth father? Who?

It's not interesting. It isn't. It's sad.

Well, I know that he's saying Julie was asked, what were you— did you search— she asked you, did you search for your surrogate mother? That's what prompted my whole— I didn't say why, but that's what prompted my raising this issue. But I have a point to make that you'll find fascinating. Two points. One is nobody ever says, did you search for your birth father? Which you say is sad. And that's, that's an interesting subject. Why you said that. Why I said what? That it's sad that people don't say, did you search for your birth father? Putting that aside though, the, the points that I find fascinating are one, that it's always birth mother, never birth father, that people say, did you search for? But here is an even— here is the really interesting point. I may be wrong, but I have been involved in this after all. That son is 30 years old, so this is not something I thought about for the last 2 weeks only. And that is, overwhelmingly, I have found that girls search for birth mothers more than boys do. Is that interesting? It is, yeah. If I'm right, it is really interesting. And I, I hear my theory, and it's just a theory, but, but it, I, it may have merit. So who is more likely to identify with a birth mother, a boy or a girl? Obviously a girl. So immediately the girl who is adopted is thinking, wow, she gave up the child that, that she is not only the gestational mother but the oven— not just the oven but, but the ingredients, right? And, and so for that reason, and I don't know what other reasons I think girls do go on searches or yearn to know who the birth mother was.

I would want to know. You would have?

Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think I couldn't care less, to the ex— now I may be dead wrong because I'm not adopted, I don't know, but if I, if I had decent parents The thought, whoa, I really want to know who carried me and who conceived me, it doesn't strike me as of significance. And therefore, I don't know if I would have gone on the search since I would have thought that the search could almost, almost only end in sadness. Because what if I'm disappointed? Then there's sadness there. Let's say I think they're terrific, then there might be sadness in my current family, my, my, which is I consider the real family, the one I, that raised me. And, and then, then it, but I may be wrong on that. There may be examples of everybody's thrilled, and, and, and I do believe that it may well happen You go on a search, you meet fantastic people, you bond with them. But I just thought you would find it of interest. Yeah, it is. Exactly. Girls, I think, generally are much more interested in the birth mother. Neither is interested in the birth father, generally.

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But that is not why I think— that's not what is animating. No, no, no, no, no.

I don't think that's what's animating.

What do you think is animating?

I don't know. I need to—

Oh, I do. Okay. People think it's important who carried you. Well, yes. If the father carried, they would want to know who the birth father was. Right. It's a different universe, but I'm just saying.

Well, I think they want to know who they biologically are.

Well, they're biologically just as much the father. Right. But they're not— that's not what is primary, their primary interest. My son did meet his birth mother. He has never evinced particular interest in meeting the birth father. Yeah. And by the way, he wasn't even crazed to meet the birth mother. He just did and, you know.

I don't blame people for having more of an interest in meeting their birth mother than their birth father. I mean, that's their own personal desires and I'm not going to judge that.

Yeah, no, I'm not judging you. I know you're not. No, no. And neither am I. I'm trying explain it, and it's not easy.

Right. I just think in general it's sad that we don't consider— I get why there's more of an emphasis on mothers, because they are the carriers. They're the ovens. Yes. I'm gonna use that one till the cows come home. But, um, but wait, hold on.

Sean has a comment from the other side. Yes, mothers are more likely to seek out the adopted child. That's true. That's a good— that's right. You're right. Because they carried it. It's the carrying. Yeah, that's the reason for— I raised it because I didn't— I knew it was somewhat related. Right. And carrying is in the human emotion a big deal.

Yes, it absolutely is. I just think we need to, as a culture, view fathers as— Oh, that's a given.

Listen, it's the catastrophe of our time.

It really is the catastrophe of our time.

Fathers is almost the whole issue. It really—

Well, Larry Elder, when I interviewed him on my show when he was running for president, he recently suspended his campaign, but he said that— I asked him what was the most— what is the most important issue in America right now? And he said fatherlessness. And I am From, from the get-go of my public career, I have, I have been, you know, very loud about this issue because it is a huge issue. But it kind of surprised me that that's what he said was the biggest issue in the country. But I think he's right. I don't think that was so crazy. Yeah, no, I certainly—

you know, you know, my favorite question to ask passionate proponents of gun legislation. Yep. One question, and it's not even to argue with them, it's just to try to establish where we might differ. Yep. In a non-aggressive way, non-argumentative way. If you could have one or the other, which do you think would reduce gun violence more? More gun laws or more fathers?

I know which one I'd say.

Well, that is so significant a question because it tells you a lot about the— anyone who said more gun laws, that you think that will reduce gun violence more than more fathers.

We, we see in the past— and look, I don't like guns. I don't own one. I totally respect people who do. I'm just saying I'm not like a gun junkie. Like, I actually— they really scare me. But if we just look objectively over the past 50 years, gun laws have increased. But right, gun violence has increased. Right.

So that doesn't mean that they've been fewer gun laws 100 years ago and there was much, much less gun violence and a lot of people owned guns.

I know that we, we, we may be nearing our close, but I just wanna make a comment. You know, someone wrote to me and said like, wow, this was, this episode, the surrogacy episode you did was so kind of, was kind of risky for you to do and going with such a personal, personal, excuse me, issue and putting yourself kind of on the front lines of this. Why do you do that? And I thought about you. And how you are fearless with the places that you're willing to go. I mean, you talk a lot about male-female relations, masturbation. I mean, and these things are uncomfortable to talk about. It's not always the easiest thing to kind of lay bare what you think and your personal, you know, experiences with certain things. But I just, I just want to say that if it's not going to be me who's going to do it, then who? And I know you think that too. I'm willing to put myself out there if it means that we're having these discussions and we're considering these issues.

Good. Good. That's why one of the many reasons I— what's the verb I want to use? Adore you. Thank you. But no. Well, you're welcome. But it wasn't— I didn't say it as a compliment. I just said it as a fact. I'll tell you why I do it. Because I am far more interested in doing good and arriving at truth than in being loved. Yep. I, I, I don't ask before I speak, how will people receive this? Yes. I ask the following questions: is it true? Am I furthering good on Earth? And how will God take it?

Those are the same 3 questions I ask. And you know, also, I've been thinking about maybe doing a show on this. This would be a good Happiness Hour, even potentially a D&J discussion. Is it a good thing for you to be hated? Obviously, it wouldn't be a good thing in the sense if you deserve to be hated. But part of the reason why you don't ask is what I'm about to say going to tick some people off and cause them to hate me is because you already know that so many people hate you. You know that there are so many people on the left and Media Matters and all these people who despise you. And so you kind of know the ship has sailed and that you're going to say what's principled as opposed to popular because you know that they already hate you. And sometimes I have that too where like, I'm kind of grateful that there are people who hate me. Again, it wouldn't be healthy if I were this awful person and I'm like, yeah, I'm doing bad stuff and people hate me, good. I'm glad that people disapprove of me and that they don't, because it, in a, in a way, it gives me a kind of freedom.

That is an interesting take, take on it.

And I just think, do other people have that in their lives? Obviously not to the extent that we do, especially you. But as you ask, is having a happy childhood necessarily a good thing? Is having a sterling reputation and being beloved by everyone necessarily a good thing? I don't think so. I've, I've gotten stronger and more principled and more comfortable with myself because people have come at me.

That's right. And if you're universally adored, it's almost inevitable that you will not want to compromise that adoration. Yes. And then you won't be animated by, is it true? Mm-hmm. I have examples in my mind, but I won't give them because there— some of these are good people, but I know they compromised because of, uh, because of that issue. They, they didn't want to alienate their nearly universal base of admirers.

And it, it's sad that so many people hate you. And there's a mounting group of people who don't like me. I know that there are people who I went to high school with or who I went to college with.

Well, that's why you particularly have experience.

Yeah, I know that. I know that there are people who think I'm nuts. I know there are people who think I'm crazy.

Well, tell people what kids you— kids, but people your age you knew from when you were a kid?

Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, there was—

when you came out, so to speak.

Yeah, I mean, oh God, when I was— yeah, when I was at Harvard, there were, there were a lot of people who came at me. There are people from my high school who have—

but say what they wrote.

I mean, it's fascinating. Well, at Harvard, you're evil.

I mean, you were called evil.

Yeah, someone from my high school said I was evil.

Yeah, that's fascinating.

I know. I'm— I want to say, like, you have— you do not know what real evil is if you think Julie Hartman is evil.

That's exactly right.

Or me. Yeah. I mean, but, but in a way, but look, if I could wave a magic wand, I would have people not hate me. Yeah. But it's strangely liberating to have people hate you. It's like, okay, screw you. You hate me. Well, fine. Yes. I'm gonna keep going.

And it also, it is not possible in, on this earth to do good and be universally loved. It is not possible.

That's true. And if you have a kind of biblical view of things, you're going to be hated if you're doing good. That's right. Because there is evil in the world. That's right, by definition. That's right. Evil tries to seep in.

If I'm told at a funeral so-and-so had no enemies, I think, well, yeah, then they did.

Like, were they ever bold? Were they ever— yeah, exactly. And do you know what? I asked you this one time on Dennis and Julie because you're the, you're the biblical scholar. I said, is there any righteous person in the Bible who wasn't hated, right? Or who wasn't tested, right? So yeah, we should really talk about this more. I, I wish for people that they are not universally, university, universally beloved. You got it. Are we, are we?

Yeah, we are. Yeah, it's a miracle that we can do the—

with all of our crazy scheduling conflicts. Well, it's a miracle, honestly. There are many miracles.

There is a miracle. The whole thing's a miracle.

It's a miracle that I was born in the oven. What did he say?

He, he said It's time to tell Julie to tell everybody about our Instagram and other accounts. All right. You can email me at julie@julie-hartman.com.

You can follow me on Instagram and Twitter @JulieRhartman. You can follow Dennis on Twitter @DennisPrager, right? Just— yes, of course. And on Instagram at the—

but primarily DennisPrager.com. Yes.

Shabbat shalom, everyone. Oh, sorry, not Shabbat Shalom. Shalom.

Bye. Bye.

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