Doctors on Disability and Why You Need Disability Insurance - WCI Podcast #398

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Their money since 2011. This is White Coat Investor podcast 398 doctors on disability and why you need disability insurance this episode is brought to you by SoFi helping medical professionals like US bank borrow and invest to achieve financial wellness. SoFi offers up to 4.6% APY on their savings accounts as well as an investment platform, financial planning and student loan refinancing featuring an exclusive rate discount for med professionals and $100 a month payments for residents. Check out all that SoFi offers at whitecoatinvestor.com SoFi loans originated by SoFi Bankna NMLS 696891 advisory services by SoFi Wealth LLC. The brokerage product is offered by SoFi Securities LLC. Remember Finra SIPC investing comes with risk, including risk of loss. Additional terms and conditions may apply. Our quote of the day today is a Japanese proverb. Money grows on the tree of persistence. Thanks for all of you out there. We're glad you're with us. Without an audience, there is no podcast and without you out there doing the important work that you do, there is no medical system either. So I'm particularly grateful for the medical system this year. Today we're going to be talking about disability and there's a lot of docs out there who are very grateful for the medical system as well. So no one said thank you to you today. Let me be the first first years out there. I don't care. What's your first year in? You know, medical school, dental school, some other professional school. We have a champion program. Whitecoatinvestor.com champion. What is the champion? Well, there's one in each medical school, dental school, et cetera class. Your job is to pass out copies of the White Coat Investors Guide for Students. We'll supply the copies. All we need is your mailing address. Seriously? That's all you got to do to be a champion. And you will save your classmates literally millions and millions of dollars over the course of their lives. So you can sign up for that@WhiteCoinVestor.com champion. This program is going to run through March 16th. We need time to print the books, get them out to you, and for you to pass them out before school ends. So we got to have a deadline in March, but but you can do it as soon as possible. The sooner your class starts becoming financially literate the more benefit they're going to derive from that. So thanks. For those who have already signed up, if you haven't been handed a book yet and you're a first year, that's because no one has signed up in your class. You need to step up and be the champion. It's not hard, I promise. And you can be the hero. Okay, in this episode, we're going to interview three different people. The first two are docs. Docs who have become disabled. Okay. And they talk about their real life, what it's like, and their real policies. The policies they bought and now have to deal with the upsides and downsides of those policies. The third guest is Matt Wiggins, who is one of our recommended insurance agents that can help you get individual disability insurance coverage. This episode was actually supposed to run last August and I blew it by becoming disabled myself. I fell off a mountain in the Tetons and have essentially been dealing with a short term disability since. By the time you hear this, I'm back at work. In fact, I might even be playing hockey again and even doing procedures again. But it's something I've been struggling with recently. But any rate, the reason this didn't run in August was because we couldn't do the third interview because I literally was in the ICU instead of here in this studio recording that interview. So I'm sorry, this is a lot later than we wanted to give you this information, but I think it's still just as important and frankly, just as timeless as it ever has been. It's certainly just as important in December as it was in August when we were hoping to run this episode in the first place. So my apologies for the delay, especially the two people I interviewed who were wondering what the heck happened to the interview they did. But I think this is an important episode with really important information in it, so I hope you enjoy it. All right, we've got a guest on the White Coat Investor podcast today. It's a doc. He's going to remain anonymous, but he's experienced disability in his career and we're going to hear his story and talk a little bit about some of the decisions he made along the way and how that's affected him at this point. So let's start with you just telling your story for now. Sure.

Well, thanks for having me on here, Dr. Dalio. I appreciate it. Listen to several of the podcasts in the past and have learned a lot from you guys, and hopefully my story can help educate some others here. So I'm an orthopedic surgeon, let's see, about three years, four years out of training, I started to feel like my left hand wasn't quite as nimble as it used to be. For instance, if I was to shake my hands out after I washed my hands to kind of get the water off them, they just wouldn't move quick enough. Or if I was trying to tell somebody to cross the street, I couldn't do that sign to kind of wiggle my hand to give them free to cross the street. So I had a little concern that maybe I had some nerve damage or something like that. I went and saw a partner of mine who's a hand surgeon. He sent me to get an emg. And as I saw the neurologist during my lunch break, she said she had concerns for me to have Parkinson's disease, which took me as a big surprise. Certainly I didn't expect to hear that. And she sent me on to see a movement disorder specialist who confirmed that almost immediately upon seeing me. But fortunately, I was able to be treated with medication for several years and continue my occupational demands without difficulty. I had to inform my administration, of course, and they were able to make sure that from a disability standpoint and from a liability standpoint that I was still employable. And fortunately, I was able to stay on staff. In terms of a disability insurance standpoint. I had looked into individual policies as I started to experience these symptoms. But then as I started to read into some of the fine print, I'd already had documentation of having some of this stuff going on. So I don't think I was even a candidate to get an individual policy at that point. But I was lucky to have a couple of policies provided by my employer that I would provide for a significant amount of income after disability, and that would be a long term plan until age 67. So we're working on that right now. I'm still in the short term disability, but go back to my story here. As I continued to operate, I started having a sore throat around the holidays last year, and in January I was diagnosed with tonsillar cancer. And during the spring I underwent treatment for that with radiation and chemotherapy. And, you know, that's still an ongoing process. But my short term disability policy is good policy in that it allowed me to have one year of my full contracted pay as I dealt with this during the holding period for my long term disability policy. So currently I'm collecting my full paycheck while I recover from the cancer treatment. And I'm going to have to go through some more Treatment here in the coming weeks because it has metastasized to the other side of my body and down the recent pet stand in terms of my long term policies. As we know those things can be pretty complex in terms of the way that they read out. One of my policies is a smaller policy and it is defined as an own occupation policy. So I hope that that doesn't cause me much headache moving forward. My other policy is the larger of the two policies and that has some provisions for what they define as regular occupation period, which is two years and then it's gainful employment. So the way that's defined is if they can find me a job, I get paid 80% of my stated income on my definition of benefits, then I get a decrease in my payment. Unfortunately, as a high income earner, that number is set at a pretty high bar. So depending on how difficult these insurance companies are, it might be difficult for them to find a job that meets that 80% threshold. But I've just started the process of working through the long term claim and submit some paperwork for them, so hopefully that works out in my favor.

Yeah. So let me summarize. You came out of training at 38. At 40 you were diagnosed with Parkinson's. At 43 you were diagnosed with throat cancer. Your disability coverage was all employer provided. They provided a short term policy which sounds like it's pretty good. A year of your full pay and then a couple of long term disability policies that may not be quite as good. You're still sorting out exactly how bad they may be, but you're not quite yet at that period. You're looking at what, about a 50% pay cut when you go on long term disability, is that right?

Yeah. As the employer paid policies are taxable, I will look at about a 50% decrease in take home pay.

Yeah.

Once my going to policies take effect. Yes.

What are your thoughts on the coverage you chose to get? Do you have regrets about not getting individual policy as a resident or Right as you came out of residency or anything like that? Are you happy with the policies the employers provided or. Or it sounds like you've got at least some worries about those.

I do. Obviously in hindsight I would have liked to have more coverage. The thing about those individual policies is they are quite expensive and I did get some quotes on them and at the time it seemed expensive to me. But looking back, I certainly would have loved to have some more coverage. I am fortunate. While the 50% pay cut is a significant chunk, baseline is pretty good for me too. As well, so I'm going to be pretty comfortable living off the disability insurance coverage that I have. And I also have discussed with my insurers that I can still work in an environment where I can perform orthopedic clinical medicine and still get the benefit of the orthopedic surgeon. So that is defined by the InOccupation Rider. That is, if I do work in just seeing patients in the clinic and treating them medically or referring them out to surgeons, that I should be still able to be getting my benefit or at least a portion of it.

Is that going to apply to both of your policies or just the one?

It should apply to both. And I've expressed that specifically with both of them and they've given me positive feedback on that now as to whether or not that holds true once the time comes for them to pay, we'll see. But so far so good.

Yeah. Are there other people depending on your income or are you single?

No, there are other people depending on income, yes. I've got a wife and a kid.

Okay.

Seven year old.

And you know, the most important thing I've told people about disability insurance in the past is to have something, you know, rather than nothing. And when you realized you weren't going to be able to work, how did that feel, knowing you had something in place?

Oh, definitely reassuring. You know, the fact when you, when you train for X amount of years, you know, I was 17 years out of high school in terms of my further education, my training, my residency and fellowship, that I got to this and to have it stripped away five, six years into your career is devastating, you know, and certainly get kind of used to living the lifestyle that you have when you're making a certain income and then to have that taken away from you is tough. So to know that there's some sort of security blanket is a big deal. Yeah. So going back to talking about whether or not I would regret having regrets in terms of not getting further disability. Absolutely, yes. In fact, I do share with my colleagues, even non medical professionals, that it's important to get coverage because a banker or a finance guy or anybody who's a high income potential to lose your job at any time and not expect that you don't have to be a surgeon to make a lot of money and to count on your skills to pay the bills. So I would definitely recommend an individual policy. Having, looking back.

Yeah. Have you had to get an attorney involved or anything to get your benefits or have they just been, you know, the insurance company paid as you expected?

That's a great question. So once I found out I had the first diagnosis, I immediately contacted my contract attorney who referred me to a specific attorney who works specifically with doctors with disabilities in terms of insurance policies. So he's kind of dialed in to this subspecialty and he's been great to work with during this process and guiding me through. And luckily he's made sure that I've been ahead of the game during the process to make sure that my documentation for my providers is on point and that I'm not missing anything for when they ultimately do decide to argue. Because with these policies being employer provided, they are kind of governed by erisa, which is a policy governmental standard that apparently gives the insurance companies the benefit of the doubt and most of these arguments. So we have the burden of proof upon the insured.

Yeah, it's a serious downside of group policies like that, isn't it?

Yeah, it is. I'm working through the process of transmitting the long term claim. Fortunately, I have about six more months until that policy kicks in. So I'm kind of submitting a boatload of paperwork to them and keeping my fingers crossed that they follow through.

Yeah. Medically speaking, what's the likelihood of you recovering and going back to operating?

I would, I think my operational career is over, unfortunately. I don't know if it was the shock of the, the treatment or the cancer itself or the Parkinson's advancing or me just getting old that it's just too inconsistent with, with the way my meds are, you know, with the way I respond to my meds. Certainly when I'm medicated, well, I could do anything. But when they wear off, it's, it's very hit and miss. So as a safety precaution, we decided to hang that aspect of my career up.

But still, the possibility of doing non operative orthopedics is still out there.

Yes. In fact, I've been offered a job in doing that and this is something that we're working through a contract discussion on now.

So that's positive. Yeah. Now if you go back and end up working some amount of time, part time, full time, whatever, as a non operative orthopedist, presumably you'll make a lot less money. You know, let's say you're making 50% less. What do you expect these long term policies you have to pay in the event that that's what you can do?

Well, based on my discussions with them, I would expect them to pay their full amount because the way that the definitions are listed in the policies that I can make up to 80% of my income with the benefit from disability as well as my employment income and not get a pay cut. So I don't think I'll cross that threshold with this part time work. But I would expect to be able to get my full benefit from the disability policy and then my earnings from the employment.

Yeah, so that's fortunate. Right? Because I mean, that'd be more than 100% of what you were making before. But it sounds like they're considering a non operative orthopedic surgeon, a different specialty than operating.

Right.

Because my policy is defined as an orthopedic surgeon in my job description it says I have to be able to perform surgery.

So very cool.

That's what they're going off of.

Well, I'm happy to hear that and I'm glad you have some coverage. Even if you have some regrets on the amounts or the type of coverage. Having something is way better than having nothing. And we wish you all the best in being able to pursue your career to the best amount that you can. And thank you for coming on the podcast and being willing to share your story.

Appreciate the opportunity and good luck to everybody out there.

Thanks.

All right, our guest on the White Coat Investor podcast is Joe. Joe's had quite a lengthy career and has had some experience with disability that I think would be worthwhile to have you hear about. Joe, thanks for being with us. And let's hear your story, you know briefly about your career and your interactions with disability insurance and with disability. Sure.

Well, thanks for having me on, Jim. First, when I first went into practice back in the late 90s, the group I joined didn't have their own insurance. I had to buy my own disability and life insurance, which I bought a term life 10 year like flat rate policy until I was able to finance my own insurance. And then the disability. I forget at the time, but it was a, you know, was it was like a 12,500 a year policy if you became disabled, which I felt at that time disability was more important than the life insurance.

Is 12, 500amonth or a year?

A year.

A month.

Okay, a month at that time. This is back in the late 90s again. The salary was more in line with my salary at the time as a cardiac surgeon just coming out of training and I don't remember the details of the policy at all. And then fast forward five or six years later, I became an employee of a large healthcare system in Pennsylvania and they offered both life insurance as well as a disability policy. So our disability policy Is every employee has to have it. They give it to every employee, it comes out of your paych tax after taxes so that the benefit becomes a tax free benefit. And then they give you a credit in your paycheck every month for the disability policy. I think the premium was about $200 a month at the last I checked. This is maybe a year or so ago. Anyway, I was plugging along, operating every day. Loved it. I loved what I did as a cardiac surgeon. It was a very enjoyable career. And about two years ago I just had some back pain, low back pain. I was dealing with that. I was wearing a brace, having a chair behind me in the or and then started working on my core. And then I had an injection, facet joint injection which helped my low back pain. I kind of took that away. And then three months later, May of 23 or April of 23, I woke up with neck pain, severe neck pain, burning in my shoulder, couldn't sleep. I talked to the pain doc who did my lower back and he put me on steroids which kind of took it away, took away the pain. But then a week later I came back, operated two days in a row and it came back and it got worse and had another injection which made it worse. And then I had excruciating pain. And I eventually got an MRI which showed severe stenosis C3 to C7 with some cord compression they thought saw a spine. Surgeon tried physical therapy, but the pain just got worse over the next two months and I couldn't even stand. Pretty much right after the MRI and the pain I was having, I couldn't sleep. I essentially at that point told my boss I can't operate at this point. I went on our policy, we don't have a short term disability, we get six months of salary continuance, which is a really nice feature. So I did that and about two months later ended up with the three level acdf anterior cervical dissecting with fusion. And the surgeon said with that type of surgery that it'd be risking my worst, speeding up the process even. Cause I still have some residual disease in my neck that I shouldn't operate. And after a few months of recovering and then getting back into therapy, talking to the surgeon, I just decided and some other people that it's probably best that I go on long term disability. Now our policy is two year occupation only policy. So if you can't do your profession, which for me is cardiac surgery, then the benefit is full. Well, it's not full pay, they have a maximum depending on your Salary, a maximum benefit you can get. And then after the 24 months, they have an incentive to work policy. And depending on if you can go to work or not during that time, you know, after about three, four months before, about a month or two before my six months ended, you know, they put the applications for New York Life. I pretty much all of my documentation got approved quickly. So some of the things I would tell people is, number one, keep a copy of all your records. Any, any procedures, any doctors or visits, whatever you do, physical therapy, because they're going to want to see it, they're going to want it all, and it's ultimately your responsibility, provided they'll ask for it. But you know how doctors are with medical records, so make sure you keep a copy of that. And then the second benefit, the second best advice I got from this Dr. Pearson, who has her own disability insurance company. We had a mutual friend, she just gave me a phone call. Get the actual policy from your company, not just the brochure that they give you with your benefits package, but the actual policy, which ours was 36 pages of medical, legal, insurance, jumbo stuff that I've read multiple times with some understanding, but very challenging to read. And, you know, they also made me apply for Social Security pretty much right off the bat. I had to apply for Social Security, and to get Social Security, you have to have two conditions. You have to have worked five out of ten quarters, and you have to be. Somebody clarify you that you cannot work. So I put the application in, they sent me for an ime, and about four or five months later, I actually got approved with Social Security, which I really wasn't kind of looking for because I don't want to take my Social Security benefit till I was age 70, as, you know, you've recommended.

But then there's a Social Security disability you're applying for, though, Right? Right.

But then you're locked in for that, that, that rate, you know, the Social Security, Social Security. You are locked. What am I getting now? I'm locked in now for the rest. I can't get weight till I'm 70. So that rate you get from Social Security, I'm locked in for the rest of my life.

I'm not sure I was aware of that. I'll have to look into that more carefully.

Yeah, I mean, please do. I mean, that's just the way I understood it, and that's why they explained it, that it said, now this is the benefit I get. That's what I'm locked in for. Life. I didn't realize that either, but. And maybe you know, please let me know if it isn't, but that's the way it is. And then also healthcare benefits after our company was they gave us a full year of medical and dental benefit after. So one full year from May it was my benefit ended. And then you can either get COBRA or you can go online. Pennsylvania has their own Affordable Care act which you could get some you discount on your health care benefits. As far I need benefits for myself, my wife and my son who's still in college. My other two children are older and off the off the payroll as I like to tell them. And again, the biggest other thing is the disability check is tax free so I don't have to pay taxes on it because it was paid with after tax dollars. That also so and then when you fill out the Affordable Care act for Pennsylvania or any of these, because actually the patient, the person from the penny said no, that counts. But then when I actually talked to the health plan person, they said no, it's only the income that you will show on your tax return. So that was, you know, so you have to really make sure you're getting the appropriate information. I think that's what's so great about your sites and your blogs is you do have a ton of information that's very, very beneficial. So that's kind of where I'm at. I think the other things I know you mentioned in other your posts, I read your blogs pretty much daily is that one part is financial, the other part is emotional. It is the first couple. Right now I'm just focused on getting healthy, trying to work out, go to therapy, strengthen my core, do stuff for my neck. But it's hard to replace that high of being involved in patient care, saving lives, operating that, you know, there's just not a things that can replace that. So I am a little.

You've experienced a forced retirement earlier than you were planning to retire?

Essentially, yeah, pretty much. Yeah. I mean I was a little burnt out anyway. I mean healthcare is getting tougher and having so many lives in your hands every day was, was getting, you know, was getting tougher and as the senior surgeon kind of in the air is getting more and more of the, you know, higher risk cases and tougher cases. So and then the call ecmo, you know, we put a lot of people on ecmo, especially with COVID and dissections and you know, so it was getting tougher and then the administrative burden and stuff like that makes it makes healthcare challenging. So I don't know Right now, I'm just number one. I try to plan something every day for myself, to have something like today. This was my big thing to do, being on this podcast. So, you know, I'll go work out and do some other things and, you know, try to play a little golf if I could, which I can't play as much as I want because there's days that I wake up, I have trouble walking for the first two hours. I'm still with my low back issues still going on. My neck's pretty good. I still have. If I'm on the phone or my computer too long, my neck does get tight. So that's how it reminds me that I know I cannot operate again, even though I would love to go back to do that. But it's kind of where I'm at now.

You mentioned earlier that you had an individual policy at one point. Did you cancel that when you went to this new employer?

Yeah, I canceled that and the life insurance because by that time I had enough kind of my own money saved that if something happened, my wife, who's also a professional, she's a pharmacist, would be able to do okay. But I did cancel that life. That other disability policy, I don't remember exactly what it was. I always felt like if I'm able to work, I will work if, you know, really need be. You know, that's just kind of. I enjoyed work. I always felt unless I was really, really banged up, like, well, I am now. But.

So now your story is different from that of others in that you were disabled relatively late in your career. It sounds like you'd already built a substantial nest egg up by that point. Is. Is this disability insurance benefit just kind of icing on the cake for you at this point, or is this money that you really need to live month to month?

It's more.

Well, you know, they asked Rockefeller, how much money do you need? He said, just a little bit more. And I think you've actually. About a month or two before this happened to me, you had a blog on there about somebody who. Some orthopedic surgeon who lost like a million dollars on their disability policy. I forget the exact story behind it, but, you know, it's a benefit they offer, I think, you know, you got to take advantage of it. You know, we pay into it. You know, like, all insurance companies are great at collecting money, but they're. They really. You know, I've already gotten about three letters in six months and medical records. And, you know, if you don't do this we can cancel it and, you know, they just kind of know how to tweak you a little bit. But I think if I was, I still have a son in college, you know, I'm not, you know, probably could I have lived? Yeah, I guess so. I probably had my 4% number close to it.

Yeah.

So.

But it gets you there. It made up the difference anyway and makes things a little more comfortable. Well, it almost sounds like the bigger burden for you has been the transition into an unplanned retirement more so than financial struggle. And it's interesting to hear that perspective because the last interview I did, just a few minutes before yours was somebody who got disabled much earlier in their career. And the financial piece of it was, was a far bigger concern for them. But it really, it's not the same thing getting disabled at 60 as at 35, is it?

No, absolutely not. I think, I think it's more important for those people to be, you know, because they don't have the finance, you know, unless you come from some real money. Most people don't have that financial security. You know, I didn't even finish my training until I was 38, 30, 36 or whatever I was. But, you know, I practiced for, I guess 36, I practiced for 24, 25 years. But yeah, I think it's very important early on, especially you have, you know, family and children, you know, how are you going to, you know, so I think it's very. In your recent article, I was on the whole, explaining the different disabilities with the occupation only was very well done. I think a lot of good information I forwarded. Actually another surgeon friend of mine, he has his own disability policy and he keeps it because it's occupation only. And we were talking about that. So I forwarded him that article just to hopefully help him explain it. But yeah, I think like I said, the two big parts which you've highlighted are both the emotional part and the financial. So I don't know, you know, it is nice to have time off this year. Last year I remember was in the fall and the first Thursday night game I was able to stay up and watch the whole football game because usually I was in bed at like 9, 30, 10 o'.

Clock.

So that was an interesting feeling of being, hey, I don't have to worry about getting up the next day. So there are some definite benefits to it.

I think you'd rather have your health though, wouldn't you?

Yeah, well, yes, absolutely. Like, there's days that, you know, I wake up, I'm in pain I'm taking Motrin and, you know, I'm trying to avoid low back surgery and even though I have some severe lumbar stenosis there as well.

But.

Yeah, absolutely, yeah, you really don't want to be in the boat. I mean, you know, we're promised nothing in this world, so I just try to make the best of it each day.

Now, if you had been disabled, let's say you got disabled 20 years earlier than you did, would you have been dissatisfied with this group policy that you have versus an individual one?

I don't. I mean, I think if you get one of those higher occupation only and that you could still work in addition to that and they still pay, I mean, that's ideal. That would have been ideal. But I think they're, as you've highlighted, they're a lot more expensive for people, but I think that would have been ideal.

All right, well, Joe, thank you so much for being willing to come on the podcast and tell your story. I think it's important for white coat investors out there to realize that there are doctors out there getting disabled at all stages of their career. This is a real risk they face. And I think the statistics are as high as one out of seven of those who buy a physician disability policy end up actually making some sort of a claim on it. So we appreciate your time and being willing to share such personal story with us.

Yeah, one comment on that. Yeah, it's clearly an occupational, especially the neck injuries are clearly an occupational well written about hazard for surgeons, dentists and hairdressers. So it's, you know, just a position we're in all day long. So, yeah, I think you have to be prepared. Right. That's what insurance is about.

So.

All right, Jim, keep up the great work. Really appreciate everything you've done. I've learned so much from, from you and your, your. Hopefully one of these days I can get out to your conference. It seems like a fun time.

Thank you. We'd love to see you. Our next guest in this pod is Matt Wiggins. Matt, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me.

So tell us briefly about your company because it's one of our recommended companies here at wci.

Yeah. So the company's name is Doc Insure and it's designed exactly to do what it says is to insure doctors with life and disability insurance. So I've worked with over 15,000 doctors in my career and given them all unique advice and education and helped them get the right policy the first time. So my team and I, everything we do is designed around making it simple and easy to understand. And that's our passion. That's our heartbeat.

So you can get more information on these folks we work with for disability insurance by going to whitecoatinvestor.com insurer. Okay, Matt, let's start out by talking about the problem with this particular podcast episode. We were supposed to record this months ago. Now, those of you listening to this, you've just heard two interviews we did with docs who are dealing with disability in their lives. I made those interviews in, like, July or so. Okay. That's when we did those interviews. And then we're going to have this interview with Matt toward the end of August. And this podcast was supposed to run at the end of August. Obviously, it did not run at the end of August because I never finished this interview with Matt because I was sitting in an ICU at the end of August with my own disability. So I basically, as we're recording this, recording this the day before, I get the pins out of my wrists, basically three months after when this thing was supposed to run, and it's not going to run for another month yet. And so I feel a little differently about disability, you know, than I did a few months ago. It feels very much more real. These things can happen in an instant, it seems. But the first thing I want to talk about with this interview with you, Matt, is my biggest dilemma with disability insurance. You know, we're always talking about, you know, is this rider better than that rider? Do I really need this one? Which company's best and all that. But the big problem is that there's so many docs running around out there, all with no policy at all. Why is that, Matt? Why do so many people not buy these? Is it just sticker shock or inertia or. Why?

I'll tell you, that's. It's a big deal. First of all, it's nice to have you back, so I'm glad you're upright and good to go. So really happy to have you back. You know, I think that it's a good question. Years ago, so like 15 or so years ago, it was estimated only 30% of doctors got disability policies. That's. That's a huge problem. Right. And so when I was kind of starting one of the first of its kind, online companies that worked with doctors, and you were getting started with what you do, there was a. There's a whole, like, movement of educators, if you will, who were pushing to say, hey, docs, you really need to protect your income. So I'm glad to say this isn't scientific, but there are numbers out there with some of the carriers that suggest that around 50% of doctors get disability insurance.

So, hey, that's a win. We've gone from 30 to 50, so maybe I am doing some good here.

It's a win. Yeah. Yeah. So thanks for all you do. And obviously we're all trying to get the word out out there, but I really think what it comes down to is, you know, you can go out and buy a term life insurance policy dirt cheap, and you can do a lot of other things. Insurance is kind of this thing you're sold that, you know, it's kind of insuring things that don't really happen. And, you know, you always feel like you waste money on it. But disability insurance is far, far different. There are studies that show that the likelihood of a doctor being disabled during the course of their career, I've seen as low as 1 in 7. I've seen as high as 1 in 4. I think the tried and true numbers, about 1 in 5. Doctors go on some type of disability claim during the course of their career, so it's one of the most likely things you would insure. But doctors, because they know the body, they know medicine, they know all kinds of things. I don't know, there's just kind of this. I don't know if it's kind of that Superman complex or if it's the whatever else, but it's, oh, that's not going to happen to me. And shockingly, it does more than most people realize.

You know, it's interesting because I feel like doctors are probably better at buying this than most people. I think most people out there running around without disability insurance, I'll bet the percentage is actually higher among doctors than is against than it is for a lot of people. If you talk to the regular Joes, you know, in your life, I mean, how many of them actually have a disability policy?

No, that's true. And I actually have. This is what's funny. I have insurance companies coming to me all the time saying, hey, you've done a really good job of developing this educational platform where you can help doctors learn about DI and buy it. Can we do this for the general public? And no one's been able to solve that so far, and I'm too focused on helping doctors to come off of that right now. But you're right. Doctors to a greater degree buy disability insurance because I don't have to convince an ER doc that bad things happen. And, you know, I don't have to convince most doctors that they see patients all the time. They get into disabling situations, either illnesses or injuries. So the data is there in their head. They. They have the experience to know that it needs to be protected against. But there's just that, hey, this is expensive. I don't fully understand it. I think that's a big barrier to entry. Who do I trust to help me understand it? Because I don't. And I don't just want all these salespeople bombarding me. So sometimes I think just trying to get over that hump of a lack of knowledge, a lack of knowing where to get the knowledge and then actually paying for it. I think those are kind of some of the barriers.

Yeah, there's a little bit of work too, right? I mean, everybody understands how term life works. You can put it on an index card, right, and you're either alive or dead. I mean, I'm an emergency doc. I see all the gray between alive and dead. It only lasts about 15 minutes. Right, but disability is not like that. Right. It's 50 shades of gray. The policies are longer, they've got more riders. There's all this stuff with them. So I wonder how much of it is just the inertia of, oh, I gotta learn about this. I gotta spend time talking to somebody about this. It's harder to buy. How much of it do you think is that?

Yeah, I think that's a big part of it. That's why, you know, we've kind of looked at this. The average doctor who goes to a website and kind of tries to learn about disability insurance or whatever, most of the time is not successful in finally buying disability insurance on their own. It takes the confidence of talking to someone who has history and experience and expertise and knows what they're talking about. And even then, many doctors will still say, I still can't get my head around it necessarily, and what's the real threat here? What's the likelihood? All that kind of stuff. But yeah, when we have the riders and different elimination periods, different benefit periods, when you're talking about ONOC versus true onoc versus modified ONOC versus enhanced medical onoc with guardian versus, you know, it just gets to be too much. And I do think there are salespeople out there from companies that. That don't sell the right kind of disability insurance. And they're probably the most effective at reaching the doctors. So I won't name any names unless you want me to, but. But there's a lot of salespeople, I.

Think we all know the name you're talking about, but we won't mention it on here. Just run into any legal issues.

Yeah, they're the most effective sales group in the country, maybe the world with insurance. And so the doctors are getting hit with that message, but then they stumble on white coat or they come to us or somebody and they go, wait a minute, that's not one of the big five to do this true and occupation coverage. So what's going on? It just makes it even more murky. So I would say for sure the murkiness, it keeps people from buying, keeps doctors from buying.

I think part of it might be the cost too. I mean this is expensive stuff and people get sticker shot, right? I mean I've been telling people for years a good individual policy is going to cost them 2 to 6% of the amount of income they're protecting. So you know, as much as $600 a month for a $10,000 a month benefit. How many people do you think turn around when they see the price and say no, I'm not going to do it?

So it's funny, I would say probably 60% of the doctors that I work with are in training and so they're going to get a small policy that expands later. So they're looking at maybe 5,000amonth in coverage and maybe it's 1:25amonth or something like that. Or they do something like graded premium with guardian that starts even lower and bumps up over time. There's ways to make it cheaper, there's discounts and training so theirs looks cheap. But then all of a sudden you take 5,000amonth for 150 and you expand that out to 15,000amonth and it's 450amonth. And all of a sudden people are saying, you know, hang on a second, that's a big chunk of change. The way I've been successful at overcoming that in the past is to be able to show if you pay for this for 10 or 15 or 20 years, that's going to be a lot of money. But you've also got a huge amount of benefit that they're looking to pay you and it's all tax free. If you have your own personal policy you're paying for with after tax dollars. So you all of a sudden take a 12 month, 15 month, 18 month disability, which is highly likely. And all of a sudden you've made up for 15 or 20 years of paying into this thing. So I think the premium is high and that can give them Some sticker shock. But if you really think of the cost versus the benefit and the likelihood of disabilities and the average length of disabilities, 18 months to two years, you make up for, you know, one and a half, two decades of paying into it pretty quickly.

So all these doctors that aren't getting make the case for disability insurance for them.

Yeah, well, you know, I hear that all the time, you know, pediatrician, do I need this? Or I'm not a surgeon, do I need this? I'm a psychiatrist, you know, all these kinds of things. But I want to tell you there's four major points that I make, the four why's of disability insurance. Number one, the unpredictability of it. I mean, two thirds of the disability is coming from illnesses, injuries we can't prevent, from other people's driving habits or whatever. I mean, we end up in situations where it's so unpredictable we can't see, predict or control the future. And so I'd say the unpredictability of disabilities is a big number one reason why. The number two why is that it's one of the most likely risks that you'll ever cover. You know, we think it's a no brainer to buy life insurance, but the chance of you dying before you're 65 is remote compared to the roughly 20% of doctors who get disabled during the course of their career. Or even like protecting a home or protecting a car. I mean, we're talking about the chances are very remote compared to that. So I think that the higher likelihood of this risk particularly happening to you would motivate me to buy disability insurance. I think the third why is thinking about what you're protecting. You can think about this in several different angles. Number one, it's the largest financial asset you'll ever own, right? Tens of millions of dollars for doctors. Number two, it's the return on the investment you've made in your career. You've literally spent blood, sweat, tears, accrued debt, whatever you've done to get to where you are. And the return on that investment you've made is the career income and the lifestyle it affords. And if that goes away, the return on your investment is not very high. Also, you can ask the question, if my income's not protected, what really is? I mean, not only your current lifestyle, but retirement, kids, education, funding. I had a smart out resident one time say, well, my marriage is still protected even if I don't have di. The number one cause of divorces in America at least is financial troubles. So you get disabled without Disability insurance that causes financial hardship on a marriage. So I'd say ask that question. And the third thing is, who are you protecting? You're not only protecting yourself, but a spouse and possible current potential spouse children or potential children. But I also bring up the multiplicative effect of a doctor's income. All of your future spending that will be done that blesses benefits locally and all around the world. Giving. Doctors tend to be fairly generous. There's all kinds of organizations and foundations that you'll donate to. I mean there's a real cascading multiplicative effect of a doctor's income. So I'd say the unpredictable nature of disabilities. It's a 20% likelihood for most doctors that they'll get disabled during their career. Think about what you're protecting in your income and who you're protecting that relies on that income. I think those are four salient points to think through when you're thinking about the importance of di.

Yeah, let's. You mentioned earlier illnesses and injuries. What's actually causing people to make claims?

Yeah, that's a good question. So here's what you get all the time. You get people saying, well, I'm not mountain climbing, right? Like Jim, I'm not out there doing this dangerous stuff. So do I even need disability insurance? I'm a safe person, I drive safely. You know, there's all this stuff. The issue is, is that 2/3 of disabilities, if you look at all the different carriers, all different companies, I talk to them all the time, they say roughly 2/3 of all disabilities come from illnesses, not injuries. So illnesses, you've got mental illness that is in the top five causes of disabilities. And most of the time these are acute things. These are loss of a spouse, these are job related, these are stress related type things where they just need a year off to get together. And so you have a claim like that. So mental illness claims, you have things like cancer, one of the top leading causes for some insurance companies. Cancer is the number one cause of disability claims. So cancer, you have musculoskeletal stuff, connective tissue stuff like arthritis, you've got things you can't predict. Like I think one of the doctors that you are that got interviewed on this podcast, you've got early onsets of Parkinson's or other things like that, neuro, neurological disabilities, you know, it happens, Alzheimer's. So these illnesses are actually causing the vast majority of disabilities and they're unpredictable. Like we can live the most cautious, safe lifestyle ever and no one can predict these illnesses when they might strike us. So I'd say the unpredictability of illnesses makes it that way. And then you just get to the accidental side, the injury side. People are getting disabled all the time from injuries, from musculoskeletal issues, from car accidents or other types of accidents. We can't predict them. Right. I mean, you couldn't predict on a beautiful day when you're out there climbing that you know something would go wrong and you'd end up injuring yourself. And you don't know when you're going to go through the perfectly good green light that somebody ignores, the red light coming from the other way. And t bones, you, you can't, not only can you not see the future, but you can't predict it. So I would say the unpredictability of the illnesses along with can't predict other people's actions and the illness, the injuries that can happen, makes a pretty good case. And that's why you see 20% of doctors is a good number to stick to over the course of their career getting disabled. These illnesses crop up, injuries happen. It's very unpredictable.

Yeah. You know, it's interesting, you know, we dropped our disability policies after becoming financially independent. So when I got hurt this summer, I didn't have any disability insurance in place at all. But if I had had the two policies that I had prior to becoming financially independent, neither one of them would have paid me for this injury. And I suspect a lot of injuries that's the case. The reason why? Well, in the case of one of them, I had an exclusion on climbing. My individual policy, I was climbing when I bought it and I had an exclusion, but my group policy did not have that exclusion. So I would have been paid by one of them even getting hurt climbing. But bones heal in about 12 weeks, which is amazingly similar to the typical 90 day waiting period on disability insurance policies. You're just better, you're better from your injuries, you know, in, in three months and you can go back to work. So that might be part of why so much of it is illness. Even though you hear about lots of people becoming injured, I'll bet a lot more short term disability is injury compared to illness.

Yeah, I think that's obviously good observation. I think that too, when you talk to the insurance carriers, there are a lot of people who get injured who don't make claims. And so because they know that they're not going to be disabled longer than 90 days or there's even a contingency out there, and this is a number I can't track down, I've tried to at the companies, but there's a number out there of people who get, who have an injury and they kind of just live with it and it affects their work. And if they only if they knew that they had partial disability, the partial disability rider on there, you know, they've had to cut back some time of work to like 20%, you know, and so they have like a. They take a pay hit, but they don't think of it as well, I'm not totally disabled, so I'm not going to get anything. They actually could get partial claims for that injury. That's preventing them from working fully and having to take that pay cut. So I don't know. There's all kinds of reasons out there, but the best numbers I see is that the majority of disabilities that go on claim are coming from illnesses which are obviously highly unpredictable.

Let's talk for a few minutes about guaranteed standard issue or GSI coverage. I mean, if people have a GSI policy, is that enough? When does it pair well with a fully underwritten policy? How do we make the most of or think about gsi?

Yeah, it's a good question. So it's popped up a lot recently because gsi, there's actually been a kind of a proliferation of GSI policies out there used to be kind of few and far between, but now there are more. GSI policies have been set up in the last five to 10 years, so there's more access to them now more than ever. And what I'd say is this, GSI is, you know, stands for guaranteed standard issue. It just means that no matter what your health history is, no matter the medications you're on right now, no matter your health history, it could be chronic, it could be acute, it could be whatever. They're guaranteeing that anyone who applies to them, as long as you're not currently disabled and you haven't been denied for disability insurance or had a highly modified offer back, you can get a standard policy meaning normal premium, normal coverages. You can get everything normal just like anybody else who has no health history. So you have to kind of ask yourself the question, is there a trade off there? There has to be a trade off there and there is. So I think the main thing to know about GSI is it serves an absolutely crucial purpose out there. If you have had any health history that you're concerned about, the disability insurance might exclude and you want covered, if there's a concern there, you should absolutely look at going the GSI route and getting A policy, if you have that available to you.

But let me, let me pause you right there, Matt. I think we need to. Because doctors gloss over what you just said, Right. They don't think what they have is concerning or should be concerning to an insurance company. They have some little ditzel that they consider in the past, doesn't even really affect their life. They're not even taking a medication for it. They think it's nothing. The insurance company does not think it's nothing, I assure you. Right. These little things that you're like, oh, nobody. My doc's not even worried about this. Well, the insurance company is worried about it. So it does not take much to have one of these minor medical issues that can cause you to actually be declined for an insurance policy. So I think the bottom line is if you have almost anything, maybe you ought to grab a GSI if one's available to you, and then go through the underwriting process.

Well, so that's a good point. So strategically grabbing a GSI plan before you go into the medically underwritten plan, that can be a good strategy. I do think that. So I run into the same thing. I run into doctors who are like, I mean, this is nothing. Right. It's not a big deal. Well, I mean, disability insurance is far more sensitive to your health history than life insurance because obviously there's lots of things that you can have that won't kill you or even affect your longevity, but those things could lead to potential disabilities. And so you're right, it's absolutely more sensitive to your health history. But on the flip side of that, just so you know, I mean, if you are overweight, if you're obese, that's a reason to get a GSI plan. If you've got a history, if you've got diabetes, that's a reason for GSI plans. If you have back issues or neck issues or even history with migraines or I'm just trying to give you some examples. Those are things that would be excluded if you go the medically underwritten route. So I'm with you on going GSI for that. If you don't have any health conditions or even some minor things here or there, you ought to talk to someone before you make up your mind on what to do. Just because, you know, I have people come to me all the time who say, I had childhood adhd. I haven't really had any symptoms or anything for the last 15 years. Should I go the GSI route? And, you know, my answer is that's not going to affect it. So you don't necessarily have to. But if you want to be safe, you can go the GSI route before going for the fully medically underwritten route. The difference between gsi. Yeah, the difference between medically underwritten and GSI plans. Typically medically underwritten is going to have a higher ceiling for coverage later. So a lot of times 30,000amonth is your ceiling you can go up to versus 15,000 with most GSI plans. You're going to have cheaper rates if you get it on your own. Could be 10, 15% cheaper. By getting it on your own versus GSI, they're having to counterbalance the unhealthy people who will go through the GSI program. And then there's some things like catastrophic coverage or other riders you may or may not want, but they would be available at least to consider under medically underwritten. So you can get better rates and better policies under medically underwritten, but you never want to jeopardize getting coverage at all by just throwing it against the wall. If you know there's some things you're concerned about, you should certainly check out GSI options.

Now, what's the way to find out if you even have a GSI policy available to you?

Yeah, a lot of times you can talk to the benefits department or HR department, depending on what your institution or your employer is. Large hospital, small practice, whatever it is. But typically if it's HR or benefits folks, you can, you can ask them. There are also people like me and some of the other agents that are on White Coat that have, you know, lists nationwide of all the places where there are GSI programs. And then also. So just ask. And then you also have to be careful because some of these GSI programs are set up at certain hospitals or institutions, but they only apply to GME doctors. If you're a resident or fellow there, they don't apply to you once you're attending. So you want to be careful before you start digging into it, you know, if you really have that available or not.

Something to be thinking about, something to be asking about, talk with your agent about. You can still start by talking to a regular agent like you though, right?

Oh, yeah.

You can come say, hey, you know, I want a policy. I got this little ditzel. Maybe I need gsi. Is there even a gsi? I mean, they can start talking to you. There's no problem with talking to you. There's not even a problem with you informally shopping them around to the companies. The only problem is if you actually apply and then get declined now you got a big problem because you can't go get a GSI policy now and you don't qualify for a fully underwritten policy.

That's the problem. What we normally do is if a doctor comes to us, they're concerned about their history. I have them write a quick little dialogue. It could be few sentences or whatever, but we take that dialogue anonymously to the big five companies happen to know the heads of underwriting these companies. We get an answer before we ever just throw it against the wall with an application. And if we have certainty when they come back, then we can proceed. If we don't have certainty, then we're definitely looking for gsi. And you know, the one thing I'd say too is all these companies are different. I can't tell you how many doctors come to me and say, hey, I was, I was not disabled. I was, I was trying for disability insurance with this company, one of the big five, and they declined me and am I just, you know, I'm out of luck for all the companies. And I can give you one concrete example and they wouldn't mind this MassMutual has flat out told me, if you have someone with any mental health history, probably don't send them our way. It's one of those things where they underwrite mental health history very strictly, whereas Standard is one of the big five. Typically though, if you have mental health history, they might give you an exclusion, but they'll do a two age 65, fully blown policy, discounted rates if they're available to. I mean, they're going to treat it very differently. So just because you've tried with one company and not had success with them, that doesn't necessarily mean you're, you're out of luck. Different companies underwrite different health histories differently.

Yeah, that's useful information. Let me share an experience a WCI had here. I got this email and he says, I wanted to share my story because I don't want someone else to do what I did. I'm an anesthesiology resident. Really an intern. Last March I found out I was moving to Florida. This is a Utahan actually moving to Florida from Utah with my wife and toddler. I thought disability insurance made complete sense. I had some extra time before the big move, so I pursued getting a policy before I started residency. Use your website to understand the appropriate policy riders, et cetera and use your DI references on your website. I had a general idea of the process but never thought ahead on how my past Medical history would be seen by the underwriters, or what underwriters would even think of my case. Not to go too in depth, but I had some idiopathic, neuropathic symptoms, some pressure and tingling and numbness that I've had for years and years and years, et cetera. I've seen many doctors for this without a clear answer on diagnosis or definitive treatments. Just something I live with, not really causing a lower quality of health or diminishing my goals or future plans. I consider myself very healthy.

Right.

So we applied through one of our agents. I'm not sure he actually told them about those symptoms. Did a brief phone call with the agent, sent some policies that everything I wanted. And I was so eager to just get this done and check this off the list. Before I started working on our move to Florida, I put all my medical history thinking that my condition was really benign and didn't receive any other guidance. So weeks go by, I moved to Florida with my wife and child. I get an email from the agent saying I'd been denied. That's it. About a week later, I found out that my program offers a GSI plan. Ha. I definitely screwed up and I'm still disappointed. I heard about the need for DI quite often, but did not see much education for those with obscure past medical history, like chronic fatigue syndrome, burnout, et cetera, which I think is more common for physicians these days than what society would think. So we dove into it and tried to get him some help. Right. And it turned out a month later, despite this DI denial he had with principal, he was able to get a GSI plan through the University of Florida. Guardian had a recent change where someone's denial of disability insurance before residency would be waived. But if he'd gotten denied while he was actually a resident, it would have burned his bridge and he would have been ineligible. So he was lucky and fortunate. Made a dumb move with good intentions, but ended up okay in the end. Your thoughts on that story? I mean, obviously we're happy this doc was able to get disability insurance, but your thoughts on what happened, What a.

Blessing he was able to get it. So that's a big deal. So I think that disability insurance, when you think about it, it protects your largest financial asset that you'll ever own. I mean, if you're a pediatrician, you're internal medicine doctor. I mean, you're talking about five to $10 million. If you're a orthopedic surgeon, Mohs surgeon, whomever you might be talking about, upwards of 20 or 30 million dollars asset is your income. So I think it should cause us to pause and say before we try anything, you want to make sure that you're talking to experts who are unbiased and who really have your best interests at heart. And Jim, I got to give you kudos, man. You've put together quite a list of folks who do that. Obviously I see myself as one of those. But you really want to talk to people who have expertise with disability insurance because you're right, you can burn that bridge and end up in a situation where you can't protect that largest financial asset you'll ever own. So it can really put you in a bad situation. And it's just that phrase that you said when you were going through that and kind of reading that, that you know, well, I'm a perfectly healthy, I see myself as a perfectly healthy individual. I hear it all the time, I mean all the time. And then they'll say, well, I mean, except that I'm, you know, five six, 305 pounds and I have sleep apnea and I'm non compliant with CPAP. You know, I'm like, you know, but, but whatever the case is really happy you got it. But you really need to be sure before you go for any insurance medically underwritten because it can affect. There's this thing called the mib, the Medical Information Bureau. All insurance companies can see when you apply for other coverage and they check it. So if you go to apply with one company and you're trying to kind of hide that you applied for disability insurance six months ago, they're going to see it and they're going to say now what was the outcome? They can't always see the outcome. Sometimes they can, but they're going to know about it and they're not going to issue anything until they find out what happens. So you want to make sure you talk to someone who's an expert, who's dealt with this a lot and who can help guide you through whether you go GSI or fully underwritten or you have a strategy of getting GSI before you go medically underwritten. And the last thing I'll say on that is be sure that you talk to an agent or someone that you can trust and that you can share all this with. It does not benefit you any to hide any medical history from them. Most of them, when you're talking to them, they're not recording this. This is not going to be used against you. In fact, if agents are anything, they should be very good, unbiased shoppers or buying agents for you. So the more you share with them, the more I can say, hey, this company handles your medical situation better than others. This is the right one to go to. Whereas if you don't tell me, maybe we apply to that one and you get declined. And now you're in that position. So I'd say be sure that you find, really dig into who you can trust to help you in an unbiased way and with expertise. And then just let them know and ask for their help on it. And you should get good advice.

Yeah, I mean, obviously agents have a conflict of interest. Right. If they don't sell you a policy, they don't get paid. They get paid on commissions. Right. But their interest is aligned with yours. You want a policy, they want to sell you a policy. They do not want you to be declined. This is bad for them. So feel free to, you know, don't hide those little things because they may pick them up when they review your, you know, prescription history. When they review this, you know, database with medical information in it. You don't want that to be the first time that your agent finds out about a medical problem you have. That is not the right way to buy this stuff.

That's right. And I can, I can steer doctors. I mean, everyone's unique situation, sometimes going GSI and then going medically underwritten to see what you can get. Sometimes you do that. And especially if you're going to be making the kind of income where you need 20 or $25,000 a month in coverage, you might cap your GSI out at 15,000. So maybe you lock that in and then you're going for the additional coverage from another company. But it's impossible for me to steer you in the right direction if you're hiding things. And so, yeah, if you can trust the agent that you have, which I would never use, an agent you don't feel like you can trust. But if you have an agent you can trust, maybe one of the white coat agents, then make sure you're forthcoming with them on stuff.

Yeah. Again, if you're interested in that, go to whitecoatinvestor.com insure or insurance. I guess it's insurance, isn't it? Insurance. All right, so it's also important to recognize that a GSI policy is not the group policy your employer is offering you. Right. A GSI policy is a portable individual policy you take with you when you leave. So let's talk about these folks that say, hey, I got a policy through my employer. I don't need an individual policy. I'm good.

Oh, man.

What do you think? Are they good or aren't they good?

So this is one of the biggest objections we face. Well, my employer's covering me and they employ physicians, so the coverage they give me must be great, right? And that's just not the case. So there's three major issues with group disability insurance. So if you remember these things, check into them, you'll find them to be true. For the most part. If you're given a disability insurance policy from your employer, it's taxable. And so they'll say, hey, we're covering 60% of your pay up to a maximum of maybe 10,000amonth. But after taxes, it's only going to be maybe like 6,000 or 6,500amonth. So I have doctors all the time who call me up and say, hey, I got disabled and I was, you know, 60% of my income was 18,000amonth, and I'm getting 6 or 7,000amonth. What happened? And when I have to explain to them the cap and the taxability of it, that's. That's a big deal. The second thing is it's not going to be own occupation coverage. I think there's one location of Kaiser Permanente that has a true own occupation policy is grandfathered in from a MetLife contract years ago. So virtually everyone else, they're told that it's an own occupation policy. But if you get money from Social Security disability, if you get money from workers comp. If you can actually teach or work at a library or do anything, it's going to cause them to reduce or pay you the benefit. That's not a true own occupation or specialty specific policy. And number three, most of the time it's not portable. And so if you're relying on, let's say that you go to an employer, let's say the other things aren't even true. Let's say it's covering you wonderfully, which is not the case, but let's say it is. And so you put all your eggs in that basket. And then over the course of 10 years of working for that group or that hospital, you develop some medical history, some medical items, and all of a sudden you leave there. Well, let's say the next job you're going to, they don't provide disability insurance. So you're like, well, I'll just go get my own DI because the past one wasn't portable. You're stuck 10 years down the road with all this new medical history. You're stuck trying to get a policy at that point in time and may or may not be able to, and it's certainly going to be vastly more expensive. So that's why relying on your group insurance leaves you hanging in an awful situation. Less coverage than you think. Not the right kind of coverage, and not even portable to take with you for the rest of your career once you leave that employer. So I'd say those three reasons make it paramount to have at least some individual coverage that's portable, that makes up for the taxes lost, and it will also cover you for your specific duties or procedures. Unlike the group policy.

Yeah. Anything is better than nothing, right? Anything's better than nothing. In fact, I met a doc a few years ago that was living on a $2,500 a month disability benefit and had been for over a decade, right? That's what he lived on, $2,500 a month. And it was like the policy he picked up as a resident years ago. And he never, you know, exercised any sort of, you know, additional purchase option, never bought another policy, got disabled. That's what he lived on was $2500 a month. I don't think he qualified for Social Security, but he couldn't work, and that's what it was. So anything's better than nothing. But that said, I mean, the two people we interviewed earlier in this podcast, you know, neither one of them had an individual policy. And look at the hoops they're jumping through. One of them, you know, had their benefit reduced because they also qualified for Social Security. The other one had two policies from work, but no, you know, no private policy, no individual policy, and ended up with about a few 50% net pay cut. So, yes, the group policies are often cheaper. They often don't ask as many pesky questions. They're very convenient. Right, because it's right there at your employer. The policy's already picked out and everything. But they're not the same thing. They are not the same thing. You know, I actually had two policies back in the day. I had the individual one I picked up as an intern, and I exercised an additional purchase option on it later. And so that was part of my coverage. The other part of my coverage was a group policy. And one things I really liked about that group policy, besides the fact that it was cheaper because it wasn't as good, was that it didn't ask about rock climbing. So that one didn't have a rock climbing exclusion on it. And so I used both for a number of years, and I've Talked to a lot of docs that have taken that approach as well. They have some of their coverage as individual and some as group. But you got to recognize that those group policies are not as strong as, well, you can buy on, you know, on the open market. There's a reason they're much cheaper, Right? And it's not just that your employer might be paying some of the premium.

That's the key. So, you know, it depends on how much cheaper it is. Right? So I'll have some doctors that say, hey, I've got this group plan and we'll look at some discounted coverage. Maybe they're coming out of training, they still have some discounts available. And, you know, we're looking at the disparity of cost. If the group plan is 20% the cost of the individual plan, then a lot of times it does make sense to, you know, have this not as quality coverage, but save some money and then get some quality coverage and kind of combine the two. If you find yourself where the group plan is, you know, 70% the cost of an individual plan, you might save 30% on the cost, but the chance of them paying you, you know, 30% less if you get disabled or 40 or 50% less if you get disabled, is also pretty high. So at some point in time you go, am I really saving enough to potentially get paid a lot less if I get disabled? But that's a, that's something you really have to wrestle through on an individual basis. Look at the rates. I personally, on a weekly basis, I look through 100 page benefits documents and oftentimes in about two minutes, can find what would take most doctors, you know, an hour to find, probably. So you can find an agent or someone who can look through your benefits documents, point out where these things are, and then really help you compare apples to apples. And if they're doing a good job for you, they're not just going to try and sell you the biggest individual policy they can get. They're going to really thoughtfully look at your group coverage and help you decide if that's something you match up with your individual policy or is it really not worth it? You want to go all individual.

All right, well, Matt, our time is now gone. It's been wonderful to chat with you about this very important subject that feels even more important to me than it did a few months ago. As we mentioned earlier, you can go to whitecoatinvestor.com insurance and see all of the agents that we work with, that other white coat investors, hundreds and thousand of White Coat Investors have worked with over the years. But if they just really like you, liked hearing from you, Matt, and they want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?

Yeah, well, they can go to docinsure.com and click get a quote. So we're here to help, we're here to educate and anything I can do, you're going to get a fair shake. You're going to get to see all your options side by side. And if you'll share enough with me, I can guide you towards GSI plans or whatever. You're going to get the best individualized quotes and really guidance that you can get. So look forward to helping anyone who comes our way.

Thank you very much for your time today. All right, as I mentioned at the top of the podcast, SOFI is helping medical professionals like U.S. bank, borrow and invest to achieve financial wellness. Whether you're a resident or close to retirement, SoFi offers medical professionals exclusive rates and services to help you get your money right. Visit their dedicated page to see all that SoFi has to offer at whitecoatinvestor.com SoFi one more time, that's whitecoatinvestor.com sofi loans originated by SoFi Bank NA NMLS 696891 advisory services by SoFi Wealth LLC. The brokerage product is offered by SoFi Securities LLC, member Finra SIPC investing comes with risk, including risk of loss. Additional terms and conditions may apply. Don't forget about Our Champions program. Whitecoatinvestor.com Champion we're trying to get a copy of the White Coat Investors Guide for Students in the hands of every first year professional student and in the country. We hit 70% of medical students last year. We'd like to do even better than that this year. I'd love it for it to be 100%. You have until March 16th to sign up. Please don't wait that long. Let's get these books into the hands of your classmates as soon as we can. Thank you for those of you who are leaving us five star reviews and telling your friends about the podcast, especially those of you sending a link to the podcast when you know there's something in there that would help your friend saying hey, you know what he talks about? The same question you asked me the other day at about 32 minutes in this podcast. Take a listen, see what you think. That's super helpful to people. Thank you. For those of you doing that, thank you also for leaving five star reviews. Those help us to get the word out a lot better than you might than you might expect. That's just the way podcast algorithms go. When there's lots of reviews and lots of good reviews, they just suggest it to people as a podcast and so that helps us to spread the word as well. A recent review we had said save me thousands, Lord knows how many millions Dr. Dali and his team have saved positions with his insight into finance. Personally, his advice helped my family get rid of a financial advisor who is charging high UAUM fees and also develop a solid financial plan. I also started listening to other finance podcasts and found he's well thought of in the investing community. Five stars. Thank you very much for your great review. That does help others to find the podcast. All right, we've come to the end of this episode. I hope it was helpful to you. Please. If you don't have disability insurance yet and you're not financially independent, go get yourself some disability insurance. There are way too many docs running around out there without it. As Matt said earlier, 50%. That's just too many. And some percentage of you are going to be disabled and not have coverage. That's not okay. Please get it. Keep your head up, shoulders back. You've got this. We'll see you next time on the White Coat Investor Podcast. The hosts of the White Coat Investor.

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