Risk vs Reward - How to Find the Balance - WCI Podcast #401

This is the White Coat Investor podcast where we help those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street. We've been helping doctors and other high income professionals stop doing dumb things with their money since 2011.

This is White Coat Investor, episode number 401, brought to you by Laurel Road for Doctors. Laurel Road is committed to serving the financial needs of doctors. We want to help make your money work while both harder and smarter with a lower road High Yield Savings Account. Build your savings with highly competitive rates, no minimum balance to open, and no monthly maintenance fees. Whether you're saving for an emergency fund or planning your next big purchase, you can keep building your savings and access your funds whenever you need them. For terms and conditions, please visit www.l Laurelroad.com WCI that's www.l Laurelroad.com wci Laurelroad is a brand of KeyBanc NA Member FDIC. All right, our quote of the day today comes from Susie Orman who said, when you understand that your self worth is not determined by your net worth, then you'll have financial freedom. And that's a great introduction, I think, to what we're going to be talking about today. In this episode, we're going to be discussing a lot about life and how life isn't completely determined by by your net worth, certainly not the quality of your life. And I think a lot of you know this. Deep down inside you know this, but we tend to forget it from time to time. Well, let me remind you, if nobody's thanked you for the important things you're doing in your life, which is not necessarily managing your money, let me be the one to thank you. You do a hard job. Maybe you're coming home from a rough day or a rough shift. And it's important work that you're doing. So don't forget that and keep at it. The world needs you. It needs your skills, it needs your abilities and you're making an important contribution. By the way. Let's talk a little bit about Bolden. You probably haven't heard of Bolden, but you have heard of New Retirement, at least previously on this podcast. The new name for New Retirement is Bolden. I'm not sure exactly why they changed the name, but if you're sick of trying to make spreadsheets and calculations that do what you want them to, you should definitely, definitely check out Bolden. It's perfect for DIY investors. Take control of the variables that impact your wealth, retirement, timing and long term financial security. There's a free version. There's a paid version, so you can check out the free version and see if it helps you with your financial plan. A lot of people have found that they actually got a better financial plan out of the free version of Bolden than they did from paying a financial advisor, but I think it probably is best combined with something like our Fire your financial advisor financial literacy course. You can learn more about that@whitecoatinvestor.com courses, but this could be a powerful tool to help you model the money as you work your way toward retirement. So check it out. Whitecoatinvestor.com Bolden all right, we're going to start with a question off the Speak pipe. It's less a money question than it is a climbing question, but let's take a listen to it.

Hey Jim, I wanted to thank you for your last couple episodes. I'm glad that you're feeling better after your fall and I found the two episode breakdown to be extremely insightful and very well done with really something for everyone to learn and I really appreciated them. I wanted to ask you as a fellow doc and climber, now that this has happened, you didn't really get into how your relationship with Risk has changed. It's probably a question that I'll have to ask again in another year, but just at this moment in time, are you going to be just a sport climber from now on? Are you planning to get back to the grand at some point? What are you thinking? And being financially independent, do you feel a different financial position? Thanks again for everything and I'm glad you're back and feeling well.

Well, thanks for your kind words and well wishes as we record this. It's a few days before Christmas. I was cleared nine days ago to do physical therapy. So right now my life revolves around physical therapy. At least half of my workouts as I'm trying to get back into shape are really physical therapy kind of workouts. You know, I'm using weights that are ridiculously low. If I were at a gym instead of in my garage would be embarrass. I can't do a pull up right now. I actually tried about five days ago and couldn't even move myself off the ground. Well, yesterday I got about halfway up so I was feeling pretty good about the improvement. My physical therapist yesterday was very proud of me for getting 15 or 20 degrees of range of motion in my wrist over the last week. And that's really good, except for the fact that I started with, you know, a range of motion that was pretty darn close to Zero total between flexion and extension of my wrist. So I've still got a long ways to go. My relationship with climbing right now is that climbing doesn't exist. I basically can't climb right now. I'm too out of shape. Number one, hopefully that will soon be fixed. But number two, I literally can't hold onto the holds. I can't do enough with my wrist to really do any sort of climbing that would be fun for me. So in that respect, I'm still in the middle of this now. I think I'm a whole lot closer to the end than I am to the beginning. But my therapist tells me that I'm probably looking at six months of therapy just for my wrist and hopefully by that point I'm more in shape. So it's hard to forecast how much risk I'm going to take in my life in that respect. But I was very cognizant of risk before this particular fall. You know, I've been climbing for a long time. I've taken risks like the risks that I took the day I fell frequently for decades. Risk doesn't show up every time. We know this in investing, we know this in climbing. A lot of times you get away with taking risk and every now and then it rears its ugly head and comes up and, and bites you. Now the truth is I turn 50 next year. I'm not 25 years old anymore. It's probably time to start dialing back the objectives I'm going for. When it comes to climbing. I don't think I'm going back to the north face of the Grand Teton, for instance. Will I climb the Grand Teton again? Almost surely. Probably by one of the easier routes. Will I take up sport climbing? Probably not. I didn't do a lot of sport climbing before. Sport climbing reminds me of climbing in a gym. And climbing in a gym reminds me of, reminds me of skiing at a ski resort. It's like skiing, but it's not actually skiing. She'll skiing on groomed trails or riding chairlifts. And it's kind of the same way with climbing in the gym and in some respects sport climbing. For those who don't know, sport climbing is basically climbing where all of the anchors are 6ft apart and are 4 inch bolts drilled into the rocks. So it reduces your risk significantly compared to traditional climbing, which is what I've spent most of my time doing over the last two or three decades. So that's kind of where I'm at with risk. I'm still recovering. I Got a ways to go, but I'm making progress. So I do expect to be out adventuring again this spring and fall. So hopefully by late spring I'm actually able to row a boat and paddle a kayak and get out and get after it. But right now that's all pretty hard for me. So I'll let you know in a few months. We'll have more physical therapy, I suppose. All right, now we're going to talk a little bit about a related subject that comes in from an email. Says thank you for all you do for our community. My question is about the notion of YOLO versus preparation. I'm having a hard time finding the balance between working hard, saving in all the appropriate ways, preparing for the future, and also enjoying life. Now I have enough life experience to know that tomorrow is not guaranteed. But I also feel the responsibility of being prepared and ensuring that we are set in our retirement years. How do we find that balance? How do we know what that right balance is? Well, this is one of those questions that there's no right answer to. There's only a right answer for you. But I'm reminded of it all the time when I see certain questions, financial questions that get posed to me. You know, sometimes it's things like people building massive 529s. I've gotten a lot of these questions lately of people wanting to start 529s before they even have kids, of people wanting to figure out ways to get even more money into a 529. I think some of these people just need to sit down and run out, what, $18,000 a year for 18 months at 5 or 8% actually adds up to it's a massive sum of money. The likelihood that your kid is going to spend that in college, even if they go to an expensive college, plus an expensive dental school is pretty low. And most kids aren't going to go to an expensive college and an expensive dental school. And you don't have to save everything for college in advance, but people are just trying to get more money, more money, more money. Well, I wonder at what cost, right? How many shifts are they working to do that? How many patients per hour are they seeing to do that? What are they missing out on now in order to do that? And I see similar questions with HSAs. For instance, you know, a post that ran today as we record this, was how to give your kid a seven figure hsa. And basically it's a post about how if your kid's not your dependent in those adult years, when they're still in your family. Hdhp, your high deductible health plan, you can make a family size HSA contribution for them. And if you let that grow for the next 40 years, it can grow to seven figures. But the idea behind it is a sound one and most people might do it a little bit to some extent, but aren't going to completely maximize it. But I had the first comment on this post was somebody going, oh well, that's not even that much money. Inflation's going to take its chunk out of it and one really bad healthcare episode could wipe it out. Well, not if you have health insurance, right? I mean, look at all the money I spent on health insurance this year or on health. Not on health insurance, but on health care consumption, right? I mean, I spent a six figure amount. I don't know, it might be a quarter million dollars by the time all is said and done. What did I pay? $8,300. It's my max out of pocket, right? If you've got a six figure HSA, you've got to have 15 years of those to wipe it out, right? Because that's your max out of pocket. Now there's some things that aren't necessarily covered by your health insurance and so on and so forth, but the point is, a six figure HSA is a massive hsa and a seven fig is huge, right? Even if it's a seven figure, not in today's dollars, the likelihood of that not being enough just seems really, really low to me. So there's lots of people out there trying to optimize everything in their financial life. And I want to introduce, if that's you, I want to introduce you to the concept of enough. And there's a book written by Jack Bogle called Enough. And a lot of it's about how to run business and that sort of thing. But it also deals with the personal concept of enough. And when we think about this, we think about it a lot as being a money level enough money that we don't have to work the rest of our life or whatever. That's enough. But the concept applies to so much more than that. For example, it applies to how much time you spend at work, right? A lot of us need work in our life. I've found that work is an important aspect of my life. Without work, I just spiral into depression and sit around and that's despite having lots and lots of hobbies. But a little bit of work really energizes my life, provides a little bit of structure and a little bit of purpose and just makes everything a little bit better. But there's a concept of enough that applies to the time spent at work. There is the concept of enough that applies to your level of optimization of your finances, right? You could always spend a little bit more time, find one little additional tax break, find one slightly better investment, find ways to shave your grocery budget down a little bit more and put a little more money toward your retirement accounts. But you don't have to do everything. You just have to do enough to be successful. And so you need to be prepared. You need to treat future you at least equally to present you. You're probably not going to die before 40 or 50, right? You're probably going to live into your 50s, 60s, 70s. Most people do, not everybody. There are no guarantees. So you don't want to put everything toward the future. But you do need to find a balance. For most people that want to work a full career, that balance means putting 20% or so of your gross income toward future you, investing it wisely, and spending 80% of your current income on present you, right? If you really want to have an earlier retirement, bump that up a little bit. 25, 30, 35, 40%, okay? But if you bumped it up to 60%, you've probably gone too far. Right now, everything's all about future you, and you're not doing enough yolo. So find balance in your life. Recognize that there are things you can do in your 40s that you cannot do in your 60s. Very few people go try to climb the Grand Teton, you know, in their 60s if they haven't previously done it in their life. Some things belong to decades that are earlier in life, right? Your teenagers don't want you to read bedtime stories to them. That era has come and gone, and if you missed it, you can't get it back. Likewise, there's lots of other things that belong to specific chapters of our life. This is a concept discussed in a book called Die with Zero. Highly recommend you read it. It's actually not about dying with zero. It's about balancing. Balancing now with later. And it's worthwhile read for anybody who's wondering about the best way to to balance those two things. The other thing you'll learn in life, and you've heard people tell you this, you just don't recognize it until you get to that point. More money is not going to make you any happier. A little more income does make people happier. You can look at the happiness studies and you know, up to 100,000 or so a year, more income makes people dramatically happier. And even after that point, it does increase your happiness slightly, but it levels out eventually and it's not going to bring you more happiness. What does make people happier? Relationships. We've got plenty of money. But you know what? When things aren't going well, relationship wise, people aren't happy. Right? That's just the way life is. Now, we've got a guest today that we're going to bring on the podcast that's actually going to be a WCICON 25 speaker. By the way, if you haven't signed up for that yet, you still can. WCIEvents.com is where you sign up is February 26th through March 1st. There is a virtual option available. If you can't still, you know, change your schedule so you can travel, you can sign up for it virtually as well. But one of the keynote speakers there is Dr. Grumman. So let's get him on the phone. We're going to talk a little bit more about these concepts about, you know, the subjects he's going to be talking about at wcicon, which is what he's learned as a hospice document from dying patients about how you ought to be living your life now. All right, Jordan, it's great to have you back on the White Coat Investor podcast.

It is great to be here, Excited for our conversation.

Now, for those who haven't heard from you before, can you introduce yourself a little bit, not only what you've done in your life clinically, but also what you've done extra clinically.

So I am the prototypical doctor. Thought I wanted to be a doctor since I was a little kid. Became one, realized very quickly that it didn't suit me as much as I wanted it to. Got incredibly burned out with the paperwork, all the things that we all face. And I was lucky enough in 2014 to get a. I believe it was a phone call from you. I was writing a medical blog at the time, and you sent me your book, the White Coat Investor, and you wanted me to review it from my blog. I took a look at it, literally read it, I think, in one sitting. And it gave me the financial vocabulary that I never had. So I was like, I'm feeling burned out in medicine. I'd love to get out. But everyone told me it was impossible. My financial advisor told me I didn't have enough money. My accountant told me I didn't have enough money. Neither of them asked me how much I wanted to spend every year, by the way. And so I read your book, and I'M like, oh, there's a way to calculate this. And I was lucky enough to have great financial modeling from my parents. So I had investments, I had real estate. I was doing some really good things. And so I'm like, wow, I probably have enough money that I can really start thinking about doing some other things I want to do in life. And then I had a panic attack because I had no idea what I wanted to do in life. Fast forward years. I eventually pursued personal finance because I found that exciting. I loved public speaking and podcasting and blogging, and I built a life around that. And I would have people on my podcast who were experts and personal finance, and when I'd ask them about, well, what does enough money look like? Or why are we building all this wealth? A lot of times I got blank stares. And strangely enough, the place I was getting the answers for these kind of questions was actually my hospice patients. Because when I realized I was burning out in medicine, I got rid of almost everything I did. But the one thing that I loved doing was taking care of hospice patients. So I was still doing that maybe 10, 15 hours a week. And my hospice patients were talking about what they regretted, what they never had the energy, courage, or time to do. And almost none of them said, I wish I made more money. And almost none of them said, I wish I worked more nights and weekends. They talked about these deeper things that they never pursued. And I was like, that's the message. That's what all my personal finance people need to hear. And so I wrote my book, Taking Stock to really bring those messages from the dying about money and life that I think we could all benefit from. Not when we're on our deathbeds, but today, when we're in the midst of worrying about burnout and struggling with our careers and wondering how much is enough.

Perspective. That's what you get from the end of life. And due to some of the volunteer work I do, I have a number of friends that are in their last decade of life, and they have a totally different perspective on life than I have now in my 40s and certainly than I had in my 20s. There's a lot to learn from people. And sometimes we, you know, discount what people tell us because we're all, oh, they're boomers, right? What do they know? They're boomers, you know, or what can they know? They don't even know how to use an iPhone, you know? And so we discount all this wisdom that is found in people that have six, seven, eight decades of life behind Them. And there's a lot of things you pick up along the way just from your experience that can be shared. Of course, you know, you got to be a little bit careful, right? Sometimes we do lose a little bit of faculties in our last decade of life. And maybe we don't want all of our political leaders to be 75 plus. But you think, right. You know, but there's a great deal of wisdom available from the elderly that I think we don't take advantage of enough. Do you think, you know, a healthy 80 year old versus somebody that's actually dying has a different perspective? And what differences have you noticed?

So the difference is that when you are told you have a terminal diagnosis, it shifts the lens. So even the 80 year old healthy person still wakes up with a major plan for the day. Look, 80 year olds are no more connected to this idea that I'm dying than a lot of 40 year olds. A lot of them don't want to think about it, they don't want to contemplate it. And to look at your life and say there were these big sentinel things that were important to me and I didn't do is to recognize that life is finite and people don't like to do that. It feels exceedingly uncomfortable. So it's quite possible that someone who's 70 and 80 and not facing a terminal diagnosis still doesn't like that discomfort of realizing that an end is near or maybe even closer than it was when you were 40. And that's why I think this terminal diagnosis really does change things a little bit. Because for once in your life you can say there's an end and it really is not somewhere far off in the distance, but it's clear cut. And that changes the way we think. You know, there's this term memento mori, this idea that we should carry with us, this idea that we're dying every day, right? That death is. And that's something we should think about even in the midst of life. And I think there's something to that because there's always a reason to put things off. We always don't have enough time, we always don't have enough money, we don't always have enough energy. And I'll tell you, a lot of times we don't have enough courage. We're so deeply afraid that we're going to fail, that we don't actually try. And you run out of time to try at some point.

You know, it's interesting you talk about that change when it becomes finite. I mean, the truth is if we sit back and think about it, we all have a terminal illness, right?

Yes.

It's called life. None of us gets out of here alive. But you look at these accounts from people that died relatively young. Maybe one of the classic ones is Paul Kalanithi's book When Breath Becomes Air. And for those who aren't familiar with this, this doc was 36, about to complete training as a neurosurgeon and diagnosed with stage four lung cancer and then wrote this book. And so it's possible to get that perspective even without the eight decades of life experience, isn't.

Is. And you know, it's fascinating to see people do these things once they get a diagnosis like this, because what I always say is, look, the problem with terminally ill is they don't have agency to actually live out some of these dreams that they've been putting. Occasionally you get someone who does have a little bit of time and so you see people do these amazing things. And he was always a writer, but had never really compiled everything together. So I believe him. And then with the help of his wife after he died, was able to still maybe pursue some of his dreams, even with a terminal diagnosis. But a lot of us aren't that lucky. And a lot of us don't get enough time to really say, ah, there was this thing that was important to me. Now I know I'm dying, I'm going to go do it. Occasionally we do, but it's not an everyday occurrence.

I wonder, and maybe I'm wondering this because I had my own close call this year. I wonder how much of that you get just from having a close call, whether it's traumatic or whether it's a medical diagnosis, a cancer that you managed to beat. Is that enough, do you think, to shift perspective?

I definitely think it is. We only die once. But putting yourself mentally in that place and contemplating it is enough to really get you thinking. And so we see this all the time. You're not the only one. We see people who have these near death experiences or experience the death of a loved one and it changes everything. So there's a template to this. So I don't think that you have to actually go through it. I think we can empathize with our own sense of mortality when we go through something difficult or empathize in someone else's version of mortality or someone else's path and still get all those positive benefits. It's a thought experiment. That's all it is.

Yeah. Now, I know you're given two talks at this Year's WC icon. We should talk about both of them, actually. But we've been talking mostly about the subject of your keynote, which you titled, what the Dying Can Teach Us About Money and Life. And I don't want you to give us your talk. You know, I don't want you to spoil it, because I want people to come to WCI con because I want to meet them in person. But give us a tidbit. What are some of the things that you learn from the dying besides just that perspective shift?

Well, the talk is based on three main premises. And so there are going to be lots of stories and lots of information that are going to deepen this. So I don't think I'm giving anything away. And these are the three main premises. One is we should put purpose, identity, and connections first, so we should really define those in our life. Next, we should build a path to financial independence around them. And last, we should ask ourselves one really big question. What scares us most? And so when you put this all together, the dying can teach us that there are these important things in our life, and money is a great tool towards reaching these goals, but it's just a tool and not a goal unto itself. And if we put these things off forever, we will at some point be lying in a hospital bed and a doctor like me will come in and talk to them about hospice, and it'll be too late. And so we really need to start thinking about these things now.

You know, that's an interesting question. What scares us most? I'm curious what some of the answers you've gotten from people are about what scares us most. Because I think about this and I'm like, I don't know what scares me. Most.

So actually I left this dangling a little bit because I thought it'd be interesting. More specifically, what scares you most? And here's the second part of the question. Are you more afraid that you're going to die today and never get to enjoy your wealth? Or are you more afraid that you're going to live a long life and die broke? And the reason why that question is important is this is the first inkling we get to how to decide. Do we spend today on something that'll fill us up or do we save for tomorrow? So this idea versus FOMO versus or YOLO versus deferred gratification. Like, you only live once. Let's spend it today and have a great time versus let's defer gratification so we have a great retirement. The problem is, none of us know when we're going to die. So if you and I knew we were going to die at exactly the age 85 and we knew the date, we could plot it out and we could use all our money accordingly and have either nothing left or enough to leave our kids on that date. We don't know that. So the best proxy we have is our fear. What scares you more? If you can figure out, are you more scared of dying young and wealthy or old and broke, you can then start figuring out how to spend money today so that you get to have those wonderful experiences, buy those things that are deeply important to you. Celebrate life with your money. Use it as a great tool, but also save for the long term because you might live till 85 or 90 and you want to make sure you don't run out.

Yeah, for sure. All right, give us a look at your other talk that you're going to be giving at WC Icon besides the keynote.

So the Purpose Code is the book that's coming out. And I love to preface this talk by saying when I wrote my book Taking Stock and gave the talk that I'm going to give the keynote, a lot of people got pissed off at me. So imagine. I love this talk. I think it's really important. You might go to this talk and you might come out of this a little angry. After seeing this happen two or three times, it really hit me. People would come up to me and they'd all say the same thing. They say, look, you're saying, put purpose first and then build a financial framework. But I've been searching for purpose my whole life. I can't find it. I'm really frustrated. I don't think there is a purpose. And after getting told this enough times and knowing how important everyone says purpose is, I dove into the data and I found two things that are kind of contradictory. One is that having what researchers call a sense of purpose in life is deeply associated with health, happiness, and longevity. Tons of studies. On the other hand, other studies show that up to 91% of people have what's called purpose anxiety at some point in their life, meaning this idea of purpose makes them frustrated and depressed. So I had a big question. I eventually wrote this book to resolve this question. How can it be both? And the answer is we get purpose wrong. We think it's one thing, and it's actually two. There's what I call big P purpose, which is associated with anxiety, and then there's little P purpose, which is probably what's associated with health, happiness, and longevity. So the Second story is going to be, or the second talk is going to be how we can pursue that right version of purpose to get all the really good stuff and leave the anxiety behind.

Yeah, that sounds really useful. I'm going to have to catch this one. In fact, I think I need to spend some time with the book. For those who don't know, this is on Amazon. It's called the Purpose Code, subtitled How to Unlock Meaning, Maximize Happiness, and Leave a Lasting Legacy. And, you know, purpose is. Can be elusive. I get it. You know, I mean, I've had to spend a lot of time thinking about this as I sat around healing this fall and wondered, why am I still here, right? Why did I survive this? What's left for me? Is there some great purpose for me that I'm supposed to accomplish now in my life? And I don't know, maybe there is, maybe there isn't, but it's certainly a humbling experience to spend a significant amount of time thinking about that.

You know, it's funny, Jim, before I read your book, I thought finances were elusive. And then I read your book and it was so clean cut that I'm like, oh, there's the pathway. This is what I want the Purpose code to do for purpose. I think there are tons of people out there saying purpose is so elusive, and I want them to be able to read my book. And like, after reading your book with finances, I want them to go, oh, there's a path to this and I can do these steps and end up getting the pot of gold at the end, which is happiness.

Yeah, well, that's very cool, because if it's as easy as finance can be made, then any of us can do it, you know, because that's. That's the truth. Finances are not that hard. So if there's no harder than that, I can do purpose.

Most people don't know that finances aren't hard because they haven't read your book. Someone had to teach them. They had to hear a podcast, read a blog, get interested in financial independence, whatever it was. But up until that point, it felt like the most difficult thing ever. I would submit to you that purpose is exactly the same.

Very cool. Well, our time is now gone. We'll have a link to the Purpose Code book in our show notes. I think you ought to come to wcicon and meet Jordan in person. And meet me in person as well, though, so I'll give you more details about that shortly. But, Jordan, thanks so much for being willing to come on the WCI podcast again. And sharing your wisdom with us.

Thank you so much for having me. All right.

I hope you enjoyed that interview with Jordan. He's a great guy. Again, WCICon, you can sign up WCIEvents.com that's February 26th through March 1st this year. We would love to have you there. It's not just about the content there. The content is top notch, of course, but coming to this conference is an experience, right? It's not only at a top notch resort. This year it's in the hill country outside of San Antonio. But every year it's at a really nice resort because we want you to go home more well than you came. We also knock off all the academics at about 4 o' clock each day and go to pre planned activities, wellness activities, you know, and it ranges everything from, you know, pickleball to wine tasting to yoga, all this sort of stuff. We usually have a 5k at the event as well. And so there's all these other things that happen there that not only help you to make friends with people that are like you and do a little bit of networking, but also to make sure you go home more well than you can. And in order to do that, we don't actually require you to come to any classes while you're there. And in fact, eventually you'll be sent home with all the content from the conference and so you can consume that at your own pace, on your own time, and really spend that three or four days you're with us boosting your own wellness. That's the whole point. Again, sign up wcievents.com it is not yet sold out. There are still seats available if you want to come live and can arrange your schedule to do so. We'd love to have you there. My favorite part is just meeting people personally, hearing their stories, hearing their challenges, hearing their successes. So I'd love to meet you personally there. We'll see you down in San Antonio. This podcast has been brought to you by Laurel Road for Doctors. Laurel Road is committed to serving the financial needs of doctors. We want to help make your money work both harder and smarter with a Laurel Road High Yield Savings Account. Build your savings with highly competitive rates, no minimum balance to open, and no monthly maintenance fees. Whether you're saving for an emergency fund or planning your next big purchase, you can keep building your savings and access your funds whenever you need them. For terms and conditions, please visit www.l LaurelRoad.com WCI that's www.l LaurelRoad.com wci Laurel Road is a brand of KeyBanc NA member FDIC. Don't forget I mentioned earlier about Bolden. Whitecoatinvestor.com Bolden that's the new what's called New Retirement. What used to be called New Retirement, but it provides a great financial program that can help you do calculations and make spreadsheets and so on. But it can help you take control of your finances. There's a free version, there's a paid version, so check it out and you may find the free version is all you need. Thanks. For those of you leaving us five star reviews and telling your friends about the podcast, a recent one comes in. It says Excellent podcast pro tip. You don't have to be a doc to benefit. Dr. Daly gives sound, well researched, important advice for anyone looking to maximize on the investing strategy. While not falling for the latest gimmick, he's incredibly consistent with suggestions and directions. His website is also a great source for details like examples of screenshots or walking through spreadsheet formulas. Very little is specific to doctors, so don't let the title keep you away. Five stars. Thanks so much for that great review. For the rest of you, keep your head up and shoulders back. You've got this and we can help. We'll see you next time on the White Coat Investor Podcast.

The hosts of the White Coat Investor are not licensed accountants, attorneys or financial advisors. This podcast is for your entertainment and information only. It should not be considered professional or personalized financial advice. You should consult the appropriate professional for specific advice relating to your situation.