WCICON25 Columnist Panel - WCI Podcast #425

This is the White Coat Investor Podcast where we help those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street. We've been helping doctors and other high income professionals stop doing dumb things with their money since 2011.

All right, everybody, welcome back to the White Coat Investor Podcast. This is episode number 425, WCICON 25 columnist panel. My name is Megan. I'm hosting the podcast today. I am the podcast producer, but I'm stepping in this week while Jim is off traveling the world and having what is surely a great adventure with his family. So I'm just helping out this week and we've got a great episode lined up for you. But first, today's episode is brought to us by SoFi, the folks who help you get your money right. Paying off student debt quickly and getting your finances back on track isn't easy, but that's where SoFi can help. They have exclusive low rates designed to help medical residents refinance student loans. And that could end up saving you thousands of dollars, helping you get out of debt sooner. SoFi also offers the ability to lower your payments to just $100 a month while you're still in residency. If you're already out of residency, SoFi's got you covered there too. For more information, go to sofi.com whitecoatinvestor SoFi student loans are originated by SoFi Bank NA member FDIC. Additional terms and conditions apply. NM LS 696891 all right, we have an awesome sale going on right now. This is our big summer sale. You get 20% off of everything that's courses, books, swag. If we sell it, it's 20% off. This only runs until July 3rd, so make sure to jump over to our website and grab a course or a book or whatever it else it is, whatever else it is that you've been wanting to buy. Okay, today we want to share our columnist panel with you. We have so many diverse voices that now write for the blog and we wanted to give you a sample of a few of those voices. We always have a columnist panel at WCICON every year, and it's always been a fan favorite. It's a great way to get to know the columnists, get to recognize what's going on behind the scenes here at White Coat Investor. Who are the voices? Who are the people behind all of those posts? So if you have not had a chance to come to WCICON in the past, we hope that this might give you a teeny little taste of one part of what it is that we do at the conference. So we hope we get to see you in Las Vegas at the end of March. Remember that tickets go on sale at the beginning of September. That's going to be our early bird prices. So get excited and we hope we get to see you there. In the meantime, enjoy this discussion from some of our columnists.

Welcome. Welcome. This is going to be awesome. This is a conversation with the columnists, which is an important part of what we do here at wci. We have columnists for two reasons. Number one, because we want you to hear from people like you, and I am not exactly like all of you, Right. So we want people of different genders, different professions, different specialties, et cetera, that can speak to to you from your stage of life. So that's number one. Number two, if I fall off a mountain or something, we don't want WCI to go away. That's the other reason we have columnists. So we have 13 columnists now. Let's bring that slide up on the screen. Thirteen columnists. Three of these are new in the last year. One's Dr. Eric Hofmeister, who is writing about, you know, retirement, early retirement kind of topics. Jeannie so is here as well. She's on stage with us. And Adam Softie is also here with us today and is one of our new columnists in the last year. The rest have actually been with us for over a year. So I know you recognize some of the writing. We'll talk today about some of the columns they've done. But this is going to be a lot of fun. Josh makes me do this every year because he wants to make fun of me on stage. So you get to enjoy that as well. Okay. We're talking about the new columnists. Don't forget you can ask your questions through the app. We don't have enough questions for the whole session. Actually, we do, but we don't want to use all those questions because I don't want to ask the ones Josh wants me to ask. So we're going to take your questions. Okay. The ones that come in through the app. And then in a little bit, we're going to start throwing something around the room. All right? So make sure you have eye contact. If you throw this to somebody, it's very soft. It's not enough. It's going to hurt anybody. But, you know, it could knock your drink over or something like that. Okay, let's get into this a little bit. And one more slide. No. Okay. Let's first start by introducing you guys. Let's start over here, Jeanne, and tell us who you are, what you do for your main gig and where you live and what you tend to write about. Sure.

So, hi, my name is Jeannie tso, A genie like three wishes I dream of. And I'm coming to you from the snowy north up in Canada where I've been a practicing radiologist for about 18 years now. And more recently I've acting as a physician advocate in the financial realm. And what I hope to do is normalize a conversation about money amongst our peers and really try and bring relevant financial information and education to our community. And at wci, I write about my ups and downs of my financial journey and how it integrates into my professional and personal life.

I'm Josh Katzowitz. I'm the content director here at wci. I've been, this is like three and a half years now. I've been doing, this is my fourth conference. I write, I'm a sports writer by trade before I became a financial writer, sort of. I'm not married to, I'm married to a physician. I'm not a physician. This is my wife. She's a physician. She fed my sports writing habit for many years. And at wci, I try to bring some fun to the blog. My last column was about how a dentist fed LSD to the Beatles and changed their sound. So that was kind of fun.

Fun.

But also I also like to take people behind the scenes a little bit. We do some contro when we have a controversial post. Oftentimes I'll go back six months later, Jim and I will kind of talk about it and then we'll see how that goes. And also I try to keep up with the trends. So a few months back I was thinking, is anybody worried about an AI bubble explosion on the stock market? So I talked to some people, did some research, and that's the kind of stuff I like to bring to the blog. It's not like so hyper financial specific, but I just like to bring a little levity.

Hello, I'm Julie Alonso. I'm a child adult and forensic psychiatrist and I live in Austin, Texas with my husband and our teenage twins and our cute little Shih Tzu. In general, I've been writing about physician wellness, mental health and issues that are relevant to women physicians and professionals.

Hi, I am Adam Safdie. I come from beautiful Reno, Nevada. I'm so honored to be part of this community. When writing, I like writing about various things. Among other things, I write about the intersection of LGBT issues and non traditional Families with finance.

My name is Tyler Scott and my first professional chapter was as a dentist. I was a public health dentist in Oregon for 10 years. I now live in Salt Lake City, Utah with my wife, who is the podcast producer for White Coat and our three girls. And now I have transitioned careers to being a flat fee financial planner for physicians and dentists. And part of that transition was burnout, and part of that transition was a disability experience I went through. And so at the blog, I write about my career change, I write about my disability journey, I write about dentistry and family finance as it applies to what we would call it white code, a moderate income.

Okay, so we have a topic today. Although I know this conversation is going to go everywhere, especially once the catch box starts making its rounds, our topic today is spending extravagantly. We talk about spending extravagantly on the things you care about and then being thrifty on what you don't care about. So the first question for the panel is, what is something you spend extravagantly on and has been difficult for you to do that. And let's start with Tyler.

Yeah, so for us, travel has been our area where we really spend big, by our definition. And that's we identified that as a shared value in our family. And the way I was able to make that transition to spending more and justifying it is that I'm happy in my career now. And when I was a dentist and feeling physically and emotionally burnt out, I was really fixated on the fire movement. I really wanted financial independence, retire early so that I could escape this career that wasn't serving me. So every expense, I just viewed that through the lens of 22 more chart notes I'd have to fill out before I achieved liberation. And so now that I am in this career that I love and that feels sustainable and joyful, it's given me permission to spend more because if I need to work a little longer, that's okay, because this is a job that feels sustainable and that's allowed me to have a little more ability to spend and enjoy the present.

And Julie?

Yeah, so it is hard for me to spend extravagantly, but I try to guide that with what we've heard from some of the speakers here. Experiences and relationships. Does it enhance an experience or a relationship? We also really enjoy travel as a family. You know, it's something that we're able to show our kids parts of the world that they don't know about. And, you know, it can be hard to justify those expenses sometimes. But I try to think of it in a sense of these are things that we can afford. We worked really hard to get here, you know, and is it something that will enrich our lives? You know, if you buy something, stuff, eventually you're going to habituate to it. But a travel experience is something you can never, you know, never lose. And, you know, even things like we bought Taylor Swift tickets and.

How many times did you buy Taylor Swift tickets?

Two, but the first.

Am I the only one who is still calling it the Eras tour?

But no, the first time we got them at face value value. So it was a difficult experience to pay 10 times more than that, perhaps to get another set of tickets. But once the TTPD set came out, we had to do it. And he ended up wanting to go at the last minute as well.

And it was in a suite with other doctors. I wrote a column about it, about how I spent six hours with Taylor Swift. Loving Taylor Swift is obsessed with doctor moms. Here's what I learned. If you and I put it in for expenses. I still haven't gotten that check back.

Weird.

I wanted to ask you about that.

Just keep turning that in and see what happens.

I will say my teenage daughter said it was the best day of her life. So you can't. I mean, that's priceless, right? You can't put a dollar value on them.

All right, Adam, please tell me it's not Taylor Swift.

No, no, no. I joke with patients when they meet me for the first time that they get the hippie granola doctor because I am a vegan and it's important to me to kind of follow a plant based diet.

Diet.

And I identify that as one of my values. And while Reno, Nevada is a beautiful, beautiful place, it is not easy to be vegan on the fly. There's not many, like, vegan restaurants that, you know, that I can order doordash from. So for me, I spend extravagantly on shipping my vegan food in to Reno. I prioritize my health and my, you know, my values for that price of convenience.

All right, Jean, for being candid. I like cars. I like maybe fast cars. I was a commuter for most of my life as a student and then as a medical student. And so you spend a lot of time on the road admiring other people's really nice cars. And I thought that if I'm going to spend extravagantly, then I want it to be something functional where I can enjoy it every day. And I have to say, like, even coming home after work, it brings a smile to my face to get into my car and just have that me time between work and home.

What kind of car is it? What kind of car?

It's a, it's a nice car.

I'm just a German car.

German car.

It's a German car. It's an Audi.

Okay.

Audi, yeah, Audi.

Jim, I want to let me just ask you a question because most of it's going to be focused on us. But you know when you started the site in 2011, you and Katie were in a much different spot in your financial. You talked about that yesterday. Kind of your, your guys progression and when you're writing at the time you, I'm sure you could relate to what most WCI were going through because you were going through that yourself. And now I don't know if you guys went to Katie's talk about with marriage and spouses. She was talking about how you work at the grocery store and you on a rampage. You don't check prices, you just buy whatever and when you come home it's twice what she spends at the grocery store. Which is why you don't go grocery shopping anymore. But can you at this point in your life and your career and with your net worth, can you relate to most what WCI are going to. You write a lot for the site, can you relate to them?

I fully admit I am not a talented shopper. I shop like a hunter, found the animal, kill the animal, dragged the animal home. Right. That's how I shot.

That's what she said. That's exactly what she said in there.

Yeah, it's true. Can I relate? Well, first of all, it hasn't been that long, right? Since we were just like everybody else and I hit my head this year. But I still have a pretty good memory and so I can certainly remember donating plasma for grocery money as an undergraduate. I can remember pinching pennies as a new attending. You know that first car I drove as an attending cost $1,850, right? I have not forgotten what it is like to have 20 things to spend money on and only enough money to spend on three of them. And I interact with five or 10 of you every day, usually by email, sometimes in person. And so no, I am not having trouble relating to the white coat investors in the least. Is my spending a little more free than it used to be? Yes. Am I still trying to get better at spending? Yes. Of the five money activities, earning, saving, investing, spending and giving, spending is still the one I'm not as good at. But I have lots of people to help me, you know, like Josh for Instance, sending expense reports in. You know what actually helps me a lot, and I may mention this a little bit later, is I have other people actually run the car. I have other people actually, you know, look at the expense. Like this trip we took to South Africa last fall. I didn't know what that ticket cost until I was back from the trip for several weeks. And that helps me to spend money when I don't have to actually spend the money. So, you know, you do what you can.

Okay. So you can still keep riding force then. You're not fired.

Not quitting. Okay. All right, let's do our next question. Everyone here on this panel is basically mid career. And I'm curious, over the last, you know, 10, 12, 15 years, whatever it's been since your career started, how much has your mindset changed about spending extravagantly since you got out of training and maybe had student loans, didn't have as much money? Is it easier now for you to spend? Or do old habits die hard? Anybody can answer that. It feels like they. They've got a good answer.

Okay, I'll say both. I think old habits die hard. You know, I definitely have seen my spending evolve over the past 15 or so years of my career. But still, if I'm booking a big trip or buying something, like pressing that purchase button is painful, you know, I have to kind of psychologically work myself up and maybe justify it a bit to myself. So I thankful.

Maybe I should have asked a better question because maybe the better question is, do you feel guilty while spending? Because I feel guilty sometimes. Even though even if it's like I'm going to buy a T shirt online for $15, it takes a really big effort for me to hit submit. I don't know if it's because of the guilt of something. It's not really something I need or it's more something I want. I don't know if it's a guilt thing or not.

Sounds like an issue you could work on.

Sounds like an issue I should work on. What do you guys think?

Yeah. So for me, I have just learned I've come to know myself. I'm 40 years old now, and it took me this long, I think, to really know who I am and own that and love that and not feel shame or guilt about my weaknesses and feel proud of my strengths, I am inclined to be a saver. I am inclined to worry and plan for the future and look ahead. And I've come to love that part of myself. And because I know that I need help, not unlike Jim, of people in my life willing to help me live now and experience the things I do want to experience in the present. And so when it comes to travel and traveling extravagantly, Megan is our travel agent. We went to Iceland for two weeks last year and she planned it and booked it all and told me not to look at the credit card statement and not to look at the Monarch report until we got home. And we had the best time. And I wouldn't have booked the same trip if been left to my own devices. And we had such a better experience because I turned over, I owned who I am, let my wife, who's more spending inclined, which makes us a great team, I think, to have someone a little more saving oriented or someone more spending oriented. And that has helped change my mindset and helped me live this life. I know I want.

I remember for me as I went on in my career, I remember some of these milestones that I listened to Jim's Milestones Millionaire podcast all the time. I remember when we paid off our student loans. You know, this is other milestone might not be relatable to a lot of folks, but when we personally decided as a family not to have children and, you know, reaching these milestones, Jim asks, when people pay off their loans, he says, what are you going to do with that extra money? I remember that mind shift, you know, saying, oh, I have a little bit of permission now. So I think that helped to make it easier to spend.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, each of you have written a column at some point or another about spending. So let's look at some of these columns. Let's bring up a quote from Jeannie here in a column she wrote. Let's bring this up on the screen. Okay. The column was called I was a doctor for 13 years with an eye toward luxury before finally starting my financial education. And she said, breaks from work were spent enjoying the fruits of my labor as a single professional, traveling the world, savoring fine dining, and amassing a fun but tasteful shoe collection. At that point, I knew so little financially that I embarrassingly can't recall what securities my financial advisor used for my portfolio. Well, now that you're financially literate, Jeanne, how has your attitude about spending changed?

Well, Jim, as you can see, with the shoes that I'm wearing today, I still have zero difficulty spending extravagantly. But what financial fluency really taught me was, was to be able to spend with intention. And so now that I have a very clear plan and roadmap of what I need to save to reach financial independence, I Know exactly how much I have left to spend. And when you can see the positive results of good saving habits and a clear plan, then you can spend so much more freely and have so much more fun doing it.

Yeah. Okay, let's bring up the one from Adam here. Financial tasks. When you are childless or child free by choice, of course, you should save enough money to meet your retirement goals, but then spend extravagantly on the things you love, like flying first class. Do it. I feel zero guilt for buying business class. Lie flat ticket for overseas flights, like taking luxury cruises. Do it. So, Adam, in that column, you said that on a luxury cruise to Alaska, you and your husband were some of the youngest passengers on the trip. How do you balance taking these awesome luxury vacations when you're in your 30s and 40s and still saving up for your retirement nest egg?

I put the principles in practice that you and this team preaches all the time. You know, we pay ourselves first. We, as a family decided 30% is what we want to set aside for retirement. As Tyler talked about in his talk yesterday, you know, he has squirrel funds. You know, we put money into squirrel funds for expected future expenses. So when there's a bonus that comes along with my awesome job. Thank you. I'm not ashamed to spend it. And as Dr. Gromit referred to yesterday, even if you're scared of dying old and broke, you still have to YOLO at some time that you have. That's what we try to do.

But what struck me about that was the next line was about how you guys were the youngest on this trip. I don't know if that. If that gave. That helped you with the mind shift. Like, maybe these. Maybe these people, maybe this is their first time ever doing something like this. And I'm in my 40s or 30s or 20s, probably, and you were doing it then. So did that just kind of reinforce the idea of YOLO lean a little bit?

I mean, it reinforced, you know, the, you know, again, going back to what Jim says all the time in retirement, there's go go, slow go and no go years, you know, and I don't necessarily want to wait until I'm retired to experience those years. And if there's a hiking on an Alaskan glacier, I want to be young and fit enough to do it and not just look at it from afar.

Yeah.

Having spent three weeks of my life on an Alaskan glacier is not as awesome as they make it sound. Put it that way. All right. Okay, Julie, now we're going to bring yours up here. Let's get it up there. She wrote a post called Justifying and Cash Flowing. A Selective Extravagance. I framed my mindset in the context of this being a much more expensive year than average and allowed myself to accept that idea. A selective extravagance, if you will, that aligns with our life goals. I had to psychologically accept the thought that it was okay to spend on something that was a once in a lifetime event. And I'm super grateful for this event because I went to it. It was a heck of a party.

I do like the 10 parties. Well, this was in reference to my twins bar and bat mitzvah and those are our only kids. So I figure I already got a 2 for 1 deal on that, right? I mean, seriously, we were only. Because of that, we were only going to be doing one of these. So it did help to justify that a bit. And truly going back to what I said about experience, experiences and relationships, you know, this was an opportunity for us to bring almost all of our loved ones, friends from across the world, across the country, family members from all over together for a joyous occasion. And you don't get too many opportunities like that. So I was able to justify that in that sense. And we value that as well. We go to every family or friend wedding that we can. You know, medical school reunion, high school reunion. We've been to all those events because that gives me a lot of joy. And I feel like you can't get that value from a lot of things in life, you know, a lot of other things.

Was it hard to pull the trigger for? You said it was hard to pull trigger sometimes or spend. Was it hard to pay the caterer or whatever?

The catering bill was the most painful. Food is expensive, but the food was good.

It was really good. So Josh invites Katie and I to come to this bar mitzvah and. And I don't think he expected us to say yes. Oh, yeah, it was.

It was a courtesy invite for sure. It was don't show up, but make sure you send us a gift.

Yes, it was. It was an epic, epic party, though. It was something. Okay, let's go to Tyler's now. He wrote a column, how much we make, save and spend as moderate earners. And I love this term moderate earners. We batted this around the room for like an hour saying we can't call people low income physicians anymore. We're going to call them moderate earners. Right. And so it's a term we use at White Coat Investor all the time, but it's A great term because it really does describe what it is like, right, to be in that space where you're making 150, 200, $250,000, those sorts of things that lots of physician families are. But it's a different life than when you're making $800,000 as a surgical specialist. So he wrote this column saying, now let's look at how we sliced up our $297,000 in 2023. We have four stops on our cash flow train that help us determine how to slice up our income. Pay ourselves first, save for future expenses, pay the bills, spend the rest. How did you come up with that plan?

Yeah, well, we wanted a cash flow plan that we knew would help achieve our retirement goals, but that also didn't feel restrictive or constraining. We wanted to have the security of shoring up the long term, but infuse some YOLO and some, some joy along the journey. And so we utilized this system. This is not my idea. This is something I learned from, from Sarah Catherine, who gave the keynote this morning. And the, the first stop on the train is to, to pay ourselves first. So we, we set our savings rate first. We identified how much we, we need to set aside to retire when we want. Then we set money aside for future expenses and our squirrel funds so that when the big home repair, the healthcare expense or the new car came along, we were already ready for that. And we put our bills on auto pace and those just happen automatically. And then we get to spend the rest like no questions asked, just joyfully. And that has given us the balance we hope for of living the vibrant life we want now and being totally certain that our long term goals are not going to be compromised. And it's been just a incredible work way to relate to our money and it's given us the permission to live and spend extravagantly. One of my favorite quotes, my tagline on my Bogleheads signature is be generally frugal and selectively extravagant. One of the first things I read from you, Jim, in 2018, and I have lived that way. Generally frugal, selectively extravagant, and the systems help us do that. Awesome.

Still good advice, still works. All right, Josh, let's get into our annual shouting match about you buying a Tesla. You wrote this column in 2022, and let's talk a little bit about that, shall we? Have you paid it off yet?

No, it's not paid off yet.

It's a very low interest rate.

All right, so here's the deal. I've never had driven A new car. Before then I had a Saturn, which I drove into the ground 200,000 miles on a Saturn. That's pretty good. And then I had an old used Toyota Camry, and I drove that for long time. Long time. I actually sold that to a junkyard for 50 bucks. And then I used her Mazda CX9 when she got a new car. And I kind of drove that in the ground, too.

So, like, I thought I earned.

I earned a new car. I earned the Tesla. And it made like, financially. I mean, we talked a lot about whether or not we should just keep the Mazda for another couple years. We actually talked about with our kids, and ultimately we decided that because of Tesla, this is pre. This is pre. Kind of okay. Not to get political.

It's in the before times.

It's in the before times. It's a little bit different now, but the safety features are great. And we like the fact that it's an ev and so we like that. And it goes fast, which is awesome. So all that. I didn't. I felt great. I think we felt great about purchasing a Tesla, but that wasn't the real problem.

Wasn't it?

The real problem was what, I financed it.

Well, no, the problem was not that you financed it. The problem was you told them you financed it.

I did.

You know, sometimes you write.

You write a column and you don't know what's going to hit or there's one little line in there, it's going to. Caused hate mail to come at you for days and days and days. And that was the fact that I financed.

We couldn't afford to pay it off today. But it's.

Yeah, we could afford to pay it off today.

It doesn't make sense because the interest rate was very low.

And anyway, this is Jim and I in front of my Tesla in Austin after I gave him a thrill ride.

All right, well, that wasn't necessarily the reason why you were not super happy about this column. There was another reason you weren't happy about the column, the reason you had to amend the Time title. And that may have been related to this column.

Yeah, so I started with the headline to my column, which was I bought a Tesla. No, this is not an April Fool's joke. Because this was an April Fool's joke from Jim in 2021. This is probably one of your most famous columns.

Right? Well, the best part about this is I'm still getting emails asking for advice for people buying Teslas. They want to know what features I got on the Tesla, whether I still like It. I get all these things. Isn't this a great Instagram job? I don't know if you saw the license plate, but it's like WC Investor, right? This is somebody's Tesla who's in my neighborhood on the street. Right. I mean, that's what this was.

So that. And that kind of kicked off the annual tradition that Jim writes in April Fool's Day post. So, like this. This was funny. People got fooled, I think.

Right.

And then we continued on with Aperture tradition.

Right? Yeah, we've got. We've done that every year now. Here's the 2022 version of shorting Ethereum. Helped us make payroll. You know, I think these April Fool's Day posts are so insane that no one's ever going to believe it. Right? But that is not the case, apparently. It turns out.

Now I remember we were. We were in Austin, Texas, at a chicken. At Gus's Chicken, trying to figure out the next April Fools. And we're like, well, we come up like WCI is going to put together or release a meme coin, right? And one was, we didn't. We didn't. We're going to do an nft. How ancient does that sound now, the NFT thing, right?

You're giving away all the ideas.

Well, we can't do an ft anymore because NFTs are no longer. But so then you decided, let's just do this one shorting Ethereum. And I think people were believe this one too, didn't they?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, I think a lot of people tuned out after a paragraph or two. They're like, I don't want to read anything about Ethereum. Nobody even found out we didn't short Ethereum because they never got to the end of the post. The next year was why and how we're disinheriting our kids. This one was a lot of fun to write and I made all the kids read it and they weren't sure if it was an April Fool's joke. So I really enjoyed this. And I had such a good time writing this one that the next day, April, April 2, 2023, I wrote the post for 2024, and I'm like, we'll make it just as ridiculous as all the other ones, Right? There's no way anyone's not going to realize when they read the title on April 1st that this isn't an April Fool's joke. And we ran this call and nobody thought it was funny.

It did not originally say April Fools. It just said PSLF canceled Exclamation Point. And that was it.

Yeah. We added the Aprils later in case people find this post on some other day of the year.

We really thought this was a good idea.

I really thought this was a good idea. Remember, this is 2023. Nobody's talking about canceling forgiveness at this point. Everything's getting more and more generous every year. I thought it was pretty funny by the time it ran a year later. Some people thought it was funny.

The staff thought it was funny. That was it. Nobody else thought it was funny.

Yeah. So that was our last one. And so we have a poll for you. Those of you have your phones, your apps, you can answer this poll. Let's put the poll up on the screen here. And the poll is very simple. Should we continue this April Fool's Day tradition? You've got a number of choices on your poll you'll find in your app. Yes, it always fools me. Yes. But I always pick. Figure it out before the end. Yes, it's a funny tradition. No, it hurts your credibility as a financial website. No, I don't like to be tricked. Or. No, it never makes me laugh. It's kind of stupid.

Now, when you keep in mind that this PS Love Canceled was one of our biggest traffic days of the entire year. So from a traffic and engagement perspective, it was fantastic. It was a huge success.

So apparently, most of the people here at wcicon are perfectly fine with this tradition, even though we got plenty of hate mail about that particular episode. So we'll try to be a little more careful about what we joke about at wci. Okay, let's get the mic box out. Let's take the catch box out. Okay, this is padded, all right? So if you get hit in the head, it probably won't kill you. But let's make sure if you throw it to someone, they're looking at you and you actually make eye contact first. Don't throw it from the strap on the bottom. Just throw it like this. Okay, who wants the box? We're gonna do a mix of mic box questions, and we're gonna do a mix of the ones you guys are putting in on the app, and they'll get funneled to me here on the iPhone. I saw somebody back here. Who wants the question? Who's got a question?

So how do you get your spouse.

Or other significant partner involved in a budgeting process if they have no interest in that?

Hypothetically. Hypothetically, yeah, yeah, yeah. For those who might be interested. Yeah, yeah. So for us like that. This is more my area. I care about this And Megan cares less about it.

So.

So the way that we got involved was talking about how much we could spend freely and without regret. That was something that really resonated for her. I talked yesterday about what I called the scarcity gremlin that sits on the shoulder. This gremlin shows up some of us in childhood based on our upbringing. Sometimes it can be in training, when money's low, that kind of whispers to us, you're out at dinner and you, you spy the raspberry cheesecake. And the gremlin's like, you can't afford the cheesecake, don't eat that. Or you see a cool jacket at REI that you want and the gremlin tells you no. And so that connected for Megan. I said, let's talk about a way when you have those moments that you can get the cheesecake, you can buy the cute shoes in the window and not have any shame or regret or anxiety about that. And so that's what worked for us, was this notion of totally guilt free abundance mindset.

For me and my spouse, it was just talking about our goals. You know, we were working really, really hard and we sat down and dinner after a long day for each of us, and it was just like, do we want to keep doing this forever?

No.

Okay, so what is our shared goal? You know, and I'm more into the investments and things, and he might not be into that as much, but really just making sure you have the same goal in mind and then just slowly introducing things a little bit at a time, you know. Oh, did we go a little heavy on the credit card this month? Let's talk about that.

What about us, Julie?

Yeah, well, I was the one, or am the one who manages most of our money, keeps track of things. I've always liked math and such. And even back in the day we used to watch Susie Orman together. We loved the Can I afford it? Segment that was about spending extravagantly. But no, I started reading WCI, I think probably around 2014, 2015, and started doing all the stuff it said to do, you know, do your backdoor Roth. I opened an individual 401k along with my, you know, regular work, 401ks. I had multiple income streams, all those kind of things, started investing more taxable and such. And I was trying to get him interested in this stuff, but it was a bit of a challenge. And maybe you can talk more about that, but it took a couple years, like three, three, four years. And I was like, hey, you should read wci. Like there was a button that said, start here at that time. I don't know if it's still there, but. And it was like the top 10 basic introductory articles. And he finally one day did it, and then it led to this job. So we're very blessed by that.

My version of the story is a little different. No, they're probably not much different. I think 2018, when New Year's Day rolled around, I'm not a New Year's resolution guy, but I decided to make a New Year's resolution. Maybe it's 2019. I decided to make a New Year's resolution to learn more about finance because at some point I was like, it's kind of unfair that Julie has to do everything. And she turned me on the white coat investor. And I started reading blogs and listening to podcasts, watching some. I mean, we still have that Susie Orman background, so I wasn't totally ignorant, but yeah. And then eventually WCI said they needed somebody who could do this job. And I said, I think I could probably do that. And I can't remember if I mentioned this before, but one of the questions that they asked me in my interview, I could do it because I was a journalist, so I knew, I knew how to do, be a content director. They asked me. I think Katie asked me the typical, like, what's your biggest weakness? Would you say one of those questions, which everybody probably hates getting? I said, probably the content, which I didn't know if that was a good answer or not. Turned out it was an okay answer, I guess, but for me, for me it was. I need to at least be able to have a conversation with my wife and. And know a little bit, so. So she feels a little. A little more supported and so that I just know more things.

All right, let's take one question off the app here. And this one is, how do you decide what budget to give your teenager? Do you give them cash or a credit card?

Well, we have teenagers, so I guess that's the test. My kids have a green light card. We got it for them when they were about 12. And they do get an allowance on it every week, like 10 bucks. I will say neither of them are spenders, though. They. The money has just kind of accumulated. I'm like, should I still be giving them this allowance or not? They've started now that they're getting out a little bit more than high school. Like if they go out to roller skating, buying their own snacks or paying for things like that, but neither of them are really spenders. They don't ask For a lot. So either we've modeled that or they just don't want a lot of things. But we do have the green light card. They have a teenager Venmo account. I don't think they've actually ever spent money on it. They get like, pet sitting and babysitting jobs paid through Venmo, things like that. So it's worked out well. It's easy for them to manage their own money. They can log onto the app and look at their balance. And we've donated a portion of it to charity. Like my daughter donated a portion to the Humane Society a year or two ago. And so we tried to do that.

What about you when your kid becomes that age?

Well, I'm listening to you guys for the advice. My daughter's 10. But the funny thing is, now that she hears me just, you know, writing about columns about finance and listening to you on the webinar, she's actually starting to become afraid of spending money. And she's a bit more hyper aware. So, yeah, I think we'll see. It'll be sort of a balance of making sure that she understands value and being something that she earns and that she works for, I think. And hopefully that'll kind of set her on the right path.

Ty, do you talk to your kids about. Your kids are a little bit younger.

But yeah, my girls are about to be 13, 11 and 9. And we pay for grades, which may be controversial, but it's the closest proxy we can think of. We talk to them about that's their job, that's their nine to five. And it acts for us as a corollary. If you excel at your job, then your compensation will increase. And so we pay based on grades. And there's a multiplier if they get straight A's or their citizenship is good, or if they do extracurriculars as well. And then I pay. This is probably a bad thing. I pay interest. They get a 10% monthly interest rate on anything that's not spent. And I had to do that because they weren't really getting stoked about having six bucks and earning like 38 cents as a five and a half percent annualized rate of return wasn't quite getting through. So we had to go to. I had 10 bucks, now I have 11 bucks that got through. And it's a price worth paying. Hopefully I can teach them over time about reasonable return assumptions. That's how we handle it.

As I look around the stage, I realize I'm oldest, the. The one on the stage. I'm the only one making catch up contributions this year for sure. But, you know, we've got one in college and we've got a couple of teenagers and one in grade school. And we get real serious about the budgeting, about the allowance. As they turn 16 and start driving, they get a lump sum of money. And this has got to cover all your gas, including taking your younger sibling to school. It's got to cover all your clothes, etc. We find out very quickly which of our children are spendthrifts and which ones are cheapskates. And we've got one of each so far, and it's been a very interesting journey. But we don't give them a credit card or anything. They've got their debit card for their checking accounts, and I think that's what they're using when they buy gas. But to be honest with you, I don't know. Katie manages a lot of that and she does a great job with it because they are definitely financially literate when they become adults. Our kids sit in the mandatory financial literacy class at the high school and they ask them, okay, who knows what a Roth IRA is? And my kids raise their hand and they look around and realize they're the only one with their hand up, you know, and the teacher's not asking who has a Roth ira, they're asking who knows what it is, you know, and they're the only ones. So you can definitely teach your kids stuff and you don't have to teach them very much, for they'll know a whole lot more than their peers. All right, let's get the bouncy box moving around. Who else has a question? Raise your hand.

It doesn't have to be about spending either.

It can be about whatever you want.

Yeah, we got all kinds of questions. I'll start asking these questions coming in on the app if we don't move the bouncy box around. But it's a lot of fun. Eye contact. Remember, that's the key before we throw this thing. Eye contact. All right, what's your question?

Can you explain the mechanics of the Squirrel funds?

Like, well, the Ally or Sofi, how the mechanics of that work?

Yeah, just the mechanics of Squirrel funds. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have account at Ally because it pays a good interest rate and it allows sub accounts, which at Ally they call buckets. So we've identified our various episodic expense categories. Travel, home, cars, healthcare, holidays. I also have a bucket for my future backdoor Roth contributions so that every January, $14,000 has accumulated so that I'm ready to do those. And then I just set up an automatic monthly transfer from my checking account to each of the buckets. And that happens on like the 12th of each month. And then once the expense arises, which may not be every year or may not be every 10 years, like we keep our cars 15 years at least. But when the car purchase comes up, I pay for it. Or the large expense, if I can pay for it with a credit card and get my my points or my cash back, I do that. And then I reimburse myself from the ally bucket back to the checking account. So if I bought a $25,000 car, I move 25 grand back to the checking account, then I just pay off the credit card. And the automatic transfers never stop. The money just keeps building up in each bucket so that when the large expense comes up one day, we've already got the cash set aside for it.

Okay, let's take one off the app here and this one's really good for the topic of this conversation. Any tips for transitioning from the live like a resident phase to the next step? How do you know when it's time to quit living like a resident and how do you do it?

I mean, I had kids when I was still in training, so I think it made me more frugal. You know, we were living on a fellow salary and, you know, to two incomes, but still not an attending salary. I think it was kind of gradual. We were still saving for to buy a house and other things at that time. So I think it took me, you know, at least four or five years to really feel like I could start maybe spending a bit more on, you know, vacations and such. I think just having a little bit of a gradual mindset shift and giving yourself some time to become comfortable with that idea that you can loosen your purse strings a little bit.

Anybody else tips on leaving the live like a resident phase?

For us, it was what I alluded to earlier, that mind shift of when the loans were paid off and that payment wasn't going to loans anymore. And at the end of the next year, I saw our checking account was higher than I expected it to be. I was like, oh, I guess I don't have to look at all the vegan meals on the budget websites. I can like order some food, you know, or we can start planning for a luxury cruise, you know. So for me it was that visual cue of that the checking account balance being higher and saying, okay, now we need a plan for this. Because if you don't Have a plan. Then you're just going to sit there in the checking account.

It's not good.

Fail to plan, plan to fail. Right. Okay, let's pass the bouncy box around. Where's it at? Who wants it? Who's got a question? Question. All right, now everyone's afraid to hit each other in the head, give too many cautions. It really is pretty soft if you get hit in the head.

All right, so I've been wondering, should.

You calculate or should you consider your real estate equity when you come up with the number of 25x in order to retire?

Or is it just.

Or that amount should just be in the taxable account?

Are we talking about our home that we live in, or are we talking about the equity and rental properties?

Equity.

Rental property that you're still paying the mortgage on.

Okay, so how to consider your home equity when you. Or your rental property equity when you're determining if you're financially independent or not, using a 25x kind of rule. Anybody got thoughts on that? Jeannie?

Yeah, for us, like, our family is diversified across real estate, stocks, bonds, and then I guess for Canadian, the equivalent of government, I guess your equivalent of Roth and 401ks. And so my kind of founding principle is I always try to make sure that I look at our wealth in its entirety and as a blueprint. And so we have a bird's eye view. We know how much is in which accounts, including the real estate. And that way, if we know how much is where and sort of what the government climate is with taxes, and then we have a good idea of where to pull money, when and where to invest to make sure that we're always mitigating tax to the best that we can and that we're making sure that our dollars grow. So I always look at not just the account in isolation, but also as one piece of a larger puzzle.

Is it true that Your portfolio is 20% stocks, 20% bonds, 20% real estate, 20% oil and gas, and 20% ice and snow?

A little bit more on the ice and snow.

How much Putin is in here?

I think that's the way to consider. Include it. Right. It's investment money. I wouldn't include your home equity in your home, but I would include the equity in your. In your rental properties. Now, if you decide to take those out and just consider the cash flow and make a calculation based on cash flow, then obviously you're calculating in a different way. But it's, it's your ability. You get to decide how you want to calculate that number. Nobody else gets to tell you how to do it. We just can tell you some reasonable ways that other people do it. All right, another question. Should we pass the box around? Who else has a question? Right up here. Let's give it a toss. Everybody between you, look this way.

Good throw.

Nice touchdown. Beauty. So.

The 4% rule assumes, I think, 30 years. If you retire early, you may outlive 30 years.

Right.

So maybe that doesn't make sense if you're retiring early.

Right. So the question is, how much do you dial back your withdrawal rate if you're retiring at 50 instead of retiring at 65 and you need the money to last longer than 30 years?

Yeah. There's no right answer. It has to be what brings you peace of mind. But you're right that the Trinity study that gave birth to the 4% safe withdrawal rate assumed that the person works until 65 and died at 95. So that 4% safe withdrawal rate is presuming a 30 year retirement and baking in even bad sequence of returns during that time. And so when we do these plans for people that say, hey, I want to be financially independent at 55. Yeah. We use a lower safe withdrawal rate calculation because if the money's going to last longer, then you have to take out less of it if you expect it to last longer. And just because you retire at 55 does not mean you're going to die at 85.

Right.

Hopefully we still plan on dying at 95. So now we're planning on a 40 year retirement. So we would want to operate on a three and a half or three percent safe withdrawal rate when we're doing our calculations. Now, does that answer your question? Is that what you're getting to?

Of course, 3% is an incredibly conservative number. Right. Because most of the time the worst case scenario doesn't show up. Right? Yeah. That's the truth, is most of the time there is no sequence of returns risk. And the truth is, most of the time you can take out more than 4%, 4%, your money lasts 30, 40, 50, 60 years. Right. Because on average, after 30 years, if you take out 4%, adjusted for inflation historically, on average, you died 30 years later with 2.7 times what you retired with. Right. So the only reason you're dialing it back is because you're worried you might have a bad sequence. And if that doesn't show up, you can make adjustments and you can spend more. And there's all kinds of studies out there, right? There are people who make their entire living Talking about nothing but this, how you adjusted, how you take money out in retirement. But the truth is anything reasonable is probably okay. So, yeah, dial it back a little bit. But when we're talking about dialing it back, I'm not talking about going to 2%. Right. If you get on some Internet forum, people are saying, oh, 2% is the new safe withdrawal rate. Well, those people are going to make their heirs very happy. You know, they're really going to appreciate that 2% withdrawal rate.

And we do have two columnists who write about retirement.

One is Anthony, the Humane Society a year or two ago. And, and so we, we tried to do that.

Who was actually in Orlando at WC Con, WC Icon last year. He retired, I think when he was 58. So a little bit later than maybe a fireperson would. But then one of our new column is Eric Hofmeister is retiring, I think in like next month, March. And he's retiring at the age of 47 and his wife is 43. So he's already written a few columns about that and about how he plans to, you know, live the next 40, 50 years without, you know, without making any more money. Well, that's not really true. But retired and kind of what that means for him and how he's going to do that. So check, check out Eric Hoffmeister and check out Anthony Ellison. There's a lot of content those guys produce.

Okay, let's take one off the app here. Your opinion on investing with Berkshire instead of an index fund. Right. We're talking about buying the company Warren Buffett controls. Just buying the stock of Berkshire Hathaway because it owns so many different companies rather than buying an index fund. Thoughts on that?

I think I'm in safe company here. We don't want to buy individual stocks. That is a reasonable position. We believe in how index funds work. We can't pick the winners or losers effectively.

But it's Warren Buffett, hey, the Oracle of Omaha.

What could go wrong? Well, he wouldn't want you to do that. Is the like that's something I point out to people. He doesn't think that's a good idea. But I get the premise. If you're owning an individual stock, a company that is that diversified and owns that many different things is better than taking a flyer on some, you know, random next AI tech. So it's not irrational. And people really like that. It doesn't pay dividends. So it's fun in the taxable account. But no, the premise, right. If we're, if we're Applying for, adopting principles and, and maintaining our financial. Our written financial plan. We. We don't buy individual stocks, so it's not. It's far from the worst one. It's got some trade offs, but I certainly don't own Berkshire as an individual security.

Anybody else have a different opinion about Berkshire? Okay, let's toss the box. Who else has a question out there? Raise your hand. We'll get the box to you. Oh, that was easy one. Like a handoff. Oh, it's not working. We got the box on.

Hello.

Hello. Hey, it's good.

This is a question for Jim. Since your fall, have you changed anything in your life?

Yes, I've changed what I do with my left hand three times a day for about 30 minutes. Yeah, I do a lot of PT in my life. I think about risk a little more carefully, not because I'm worried about getting hurt or having to have surgery, but because I don't want to do PT again. All right, let's toss the box. Who else has a question?

It was interesting, too, that when that fall happened with the company, what happened with the, you know, we'd always had this plan of what happens if Jim gets. Gets hit by a bus. We didn't have it. What happens if Jim falls off a mountain?

That is what the plan is called now, though.

What happens if Jim falls off a bigger mountain?

I mean, you know, the company did great. The company did great. A lot of people didn't even realize I fell off a mountain. They're just like finding out today at the conference. So it, you know, the written content issue was kind of already managed. Right? I mean, look around. There's 13 columnists besides me. We're not going to have any trouble creating high quality written content going forward without me. The podcast hosting issue was a little bit trickier. But those who remember last fall, we had some great episodes hosted by guest hosts. And so those are the big concerns because they're the big pieces where my face gets out there. And I think the philosophy of the white coat investor has been spread throughout the company enough that the other decisions of how to run the company and who we're going to take as advertisers and those sorts of things has already been set. So I'm impressed with how well the company did, but I wasn't surprised.

And we probably have, you know, we have so many columnists and we probably have three months worth of maybe even more of gym content that has not been published yet. So even if you were to fall off a bigger mountain, nobody would Know about it from the content side for probably another six months.

Yeah. Especially if we start mixing in the old stuff that you guys haven't read yet anyway, so. Works well. Okay, let's take. Let's take another question off here. How do you manage your inner circle? Your parents in laws and friends who don't quite understand our financial goals or judge us on our saving or spending? Jeanne, you've been quiet. Inner circle, parents in laws, friends, how do you manage that?

Yeah, that's. Family's interesting. My policy, I think, especially as. As I was doing a real big, deep dive into finances and learning about it, was just to let them know sort of my enthusiasm and my passion for learning about this. And if they had questions, then I would entertain them and. And we would have a conversation about it, but I would let them initiate the conversation with me. And as far as sort of judgment is concerned, as far as, like, how much I made and how much I earned, I think in my family was always nice because there was a respect there for, you know, if you've made the money, then you can spend it and save it as you like. So pretty lucky that way.

Else, inner circle, this is no small feat. It's relationships. Right. It's way harder than money.

Yeah. I think it can be tricky. We have friends who make more than us. We have friends who make less than us. I think you have to have some awareness and be sensitive to those issues. We. We know, I think, somewhat which friends we can talk to maybe a bit more about some of our financial goals or something, some of the things that we're learning at places like Wcicon, and some who are maybe not as interested, you know, sometimes might bring something up in conversation, though, just to get it out there. But I think you do have to be sensitive to those income differentials with close friends and not put your foot in your mouth.

Oh, geez, I always put my foot in my mouth. We do have some people in our life, friends who say things like, wow, you guys always travel. Which is. I don't know how to feel about that. I kind of feel like it almost makes me feel a little guilty. Even though we don't really travel that much, we're not traveling once a month. We don't travel as much as this guy does. But that always. It always feels a little weird when they say, you guys travel so much.

Yeah, but we value travel. Like, we haven't, you know, done a lot of home renovation projects because I'd rather go on a trip. My kids are going to be out of the house in the next couple of years. So that's my value, and I try to explain that when I can. And also, I plan all of our travel, so I do try to get good deals on things, and we use points and, you know, things like that.

That's weird. You like walking through the Louvre better than laying tile. So surprising. But, you know, that's the way it is. Okay, let's move into our lightning round. All right, so we're looking for shorter answers. We just want your opinions on the topic. We'll hit everybody. Let's start with bitcoin. Do you like it? And do you have any? Let's start on the far side and back this way.

No, no, no, no, we don't have any.

Oh, no, no. And God, no.

I love bitcoin. I find it super interesting. It is fascinating. But I don't put real money in bitcoin. In fact, I don't have any money in bitcoin. I watch it from the sideline, mostly because I have no idea what it's going to be worth in a year, five years, 10 years. I don't know. My crystal ball is totally cloudy. And since the entire return depends on that question, I don't own any.

Do people here have bitcoin?

Let's be honest, right? It's the highest performing thing since it showed up on the planet, right? The Federal Reserve is even talking about having some bitcoin, right? Is it adopted by more and more people? Well, I don't know. It's hard to tell if it's being adopted by more and more people. When it goes up, it seems like more and more people are adopting it. When it goes down, it seems like fewer and fewer. I do know I can't go out and use it to buy anything yet. Like, they've been promising me since 2011. But it. It's still, you know, pretty cool to watch. And if you want to put some small percentage of your portfolio into it, I don't have a problem with that. But if Your portfolio is 50% Bitcoin and 50% Nvidia, you're not doing this right. All right, I can tell you that. Okay, next. Next question. Travel hacking with credit cards. And we're definitely starting this one with you. Is this something you do, travel hacking with credit cards?

I now infamously do not do that, Though I think I have always thought it is great for those who enjoy it. I think it can add real meaning and real value as a hobby and give people permission to travel in ways that they wouldn't otherwise I don't think it has as large of an impact in a comprehensive financial plan as other areas. I'm very happy with my cash back.

Okay. That's too long for the lightning though. Sorry. Travel hacking, yes or no?

Slightly longer than lightning. I got burned by travel hacking in March of 2020 when I earned my Southwest companion pass. Couldn't travel for the next year in nine months. So no, don't do it anymore.

Yeah, I'd say I'm at an intermediate level. We've stayed at multiple hotels that we never would have spent the money on that were really nice in Paris and London and such based on points. So I think it's me.

I think it's a balance like we do some of that, but I don't think we're going to go buy gift cards and get trying to get travel points that way. Although we are. I've been listening to more podcasts about travel hacking, so maybe my answer will be different next year.

Jamie in my earlier career I was like obsessed with travel hacking, credit card points and stuff. But now I'm finding, you know, as you kind of develop more wealth and you the opportunity cost isn't so awesome anymore. So yeah, probably don't look at it as much.

Yeah, we, we operate at a 101 level. You know, we got cards that pay us 2% back or 5% back on gas or whatever, but we're not signing up for new cards every three months and trying to get the sign up bonuses or anything like that. That said, you know, if you really enjoy traveling and you like that as a hobby, it's not crazy to do this is not like foolish to do or anything. It's just not what I choose to do with my time energy and at this point, you know, it's one of those things we've chosen to make our lives a little bit simpler than they have to be. Okay, let's talk about private equity or in the dental world, the DSO ownership. Is this good? Is this bad? Are we okay with it? Should we be fighting against it, kicking and st screaming Jeannie, let's start with you and go back across.

I think it has its positives and negatives. I think for physicians it's difficult to maintain a level of quality and I think it puts more strain on us from a business and income perspective. So I'd say no.

Okay.

Josh?

Yeah, I mean I think, well, for people who sell the DSOs or who sell to private equity, it's a great thing for them. But for, you know, the world. It doesn't seem like it's a great thing.

Yeah, we've had a couple of friends who've sold practices to private equity and have done quite well. So I mean, for them, again, it can be positive, but I think they want to come in and make a profit. So how does that affect the people left behind the practice?

I'm quite happy working for my not for profit hospital right now.

Yeah, I think it's concerning. I also think it's inevitable. And so learning to manage this transition to ensure that providers can have the autonomy they want and patients can have the outcomes they want is part of our job collectively as a community to help inform and have those conversations, to manage those inherent conflicts of interest that will arise.

Okay, last question. You get a one word answer. Is it ethical to retire early as a physician or dentist?

Absolutely.

Yes.

Yes.

God yes.

A thousand percent.

It's your life. You get to live the way you want. Okay, thank you so much for your attention today. We're going to let the panelists get off here and we appreciate you guys coming and especially appreciate you contributing your voices to the White Coat Investor blog.

All right. I hope you enjoyed listening to the columnists have that discussion. We have so many great diverse voices here contributing to the White Coat Investor to all the content that we're creating for you and we hope that you enjoyed getting to hear from some of those people. As I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, SOFI could help medical residents like you save thousands of dollars with exclusive rates and flexible terms for refinancing student loans. Visit sofi.comwhitecoatinvestor to see all promotions and offers that they've got waiting for you. One more time, that's sofi.com whitecoatinvestor SoFi student loans are originated by SoFi Bank NA member FDIC. Additional terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891 don't forget we've got our big summer sale going on right now. Use code SUMMER20 at checkout for 20% off everything that we sell that's going on right now until July 3rd. And please remember to leave us a five star review and tell your friends about the podcast. This review comes from Gail, Maryland. Says my Go to Financial Podcast. I have been listening to this podcast since its inception. The more I listen, the more I learn and I'm inspired. I I appreciate the diversity of invited guests and the positive messages and celebrations of those who are interviewed on milestones to millionaire. Dr. Dali and his staff are providing an invaluable service. Thank you for all that you do. Thank you Gail. We appreciate that awesome review and thank you to all of you. We really appreciate that you are spending your very valuable time here learning with us and building our community together. I know that it is. There's a lot happening in life, whether it's with your patients or your job or your family or working on yourself. Whatever it is, it's a lot and we recognize it, we see you, we appreciate you and we're here for you. So until next week, keep your head up, your shoulders back. You've got this and we can help. We'll see you next time on the White Coat Investor Podcast.

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