317 - Unlock Your Financial Leadership Style Using the 4 Money Personas

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The mindset is always, I got a scrimp, save, sacrifice, defer, delay. I've got a budget, I've got to cut back, that no one shrinks away to wealth yet. Most people think that that's the game of money. But the game of money is a game of expansion, value creation, service, solving problems and adding value. And if it's anything other than that, it's a game of limitation, which doesn't lead to prosperity.

Hello and welcome to the Remarkable CEO Podcast, a show dedicated to chiropractors who want to transform their job into a.

Business so that they can have a.

Remarkable practice as part of a remarkable life, not instead of one. With your hosts, Dr. Pete Camiolo and Dr. Steven Fransen.

What's up, remarkables? Welcome to another episode of the remarkable CEO podcast, Chiropractic's number one business podcast. I'm Dr. Steven France, and I'm here with a very good friend of mine, somebody who I consider one of the expert advisors in my life in an incredibly important category of life in the financial life. Say hello, Garrett Gunderson.

What's up, man? Yeah, we're like, we're legitimately friends. You've been to my place, I've stayed at your house multiple times. You know, we've been on the beach together. I've watched you surf in. In freezing water, but there's enough salt that it doesn't freeze. I mean, you know, that's. That's the real deal.

Yeah, it's been a long time, my friend, and you were one of the people that really helped to create a trajectory for us as a family. So just on behalf of my whole family, thank you so much for some really valuable advice that I got about a decade ago. So you gave me some great direction, and you've always been a great source of that. So just publicly, I appreciate you, buddy, and you're a great guy and a great friend. So. All right, so for a lot of people here listening, they know your name. Some people don't. So why don't you just give us a quick snapshot who you are. Who's Garrett Gunderson? How'd you end up here on this podcast for chiropractors why don't you just give a quick 1 minute debrief on your story?

I mean, as you know, because, you know, you watched. My son had some challenging issues back in the day with auditory processing. And I met Patrick Chintempo. He invited me to Total Solutions as a guest, even though I wasn't a chiropractor. And then a bunch of chiropractors, like, you know, my wife and I went, told them what was going on with our son. They're like, we want to help. They start making phone calls. I was like, this is a cool profession. Patrick came on my radio show. I did his on purpose thing. All of a sudden, people just started calling our office saying like, hey, Patrick Gintempo, recommend you. We'd like to work with you. I was like, okay. So it wasn't, like, intentional that we ended up in chiropractic. I'd been working with Dr. Craig Bueller, who I introduced you to as my chiropractor for, you know, a couple decades now. And he's been instrumental and then other great chiropractors out there that have, you know, helped my family out. So it was just like, good people got introduced to it and started helping them with their finances because, you know, all these chiropractors, they want to help people, they want to be healers. They didn't go, I'm get filthy rich, man. I'm going to become a chiropractor. And, you know, so I was like, oh, I could really help these guys with their finances. They're humble enough to learn, and there's a lot that they, you know, haven't necessarily experienced.

Yeah, 100%. That's a great take. I always say that chiropractors are typically brilliant clinicians and hopeless business people.

Right.

So I appreciate you being part of the team helping us dial that in, because, you know, what the world needs now is chiropractic, right? And what chiropractic needs right now is more successful chiropractors. And, man, for so many chiropractors, money isn't the energizing force that it could be and should be in their lives. Instead, it's a stress point and it's distraction for the most part. They haven't really figured out productivity and profitability or, you know, tax strategy. You know, they've not been taught that fundamentals of finance and business management. And we're not probably not going to get into the quagmire of that conversation today, but we're probably going to start up at, you know, above Atlas and have A conversation about belief systems. Because, you know, every time you and I get together, that's what we end up talking about. Because if your belief system is off, your belief systems organize your behaviors and your behaviors drive your outcome. So I love the fact that you always start there.

I mean, and there's a lot of misbeliefs and misinformation around money. Some people don't feel that they deserve it. Some people think that it's bad or wrong or evil. I mean, think about it like every documentary always says, you know, it's like dirty, filthy, stinking. So like it needs better brand recognition than it gets. And the reality is it's just a store of value. It's just a man made efficient tool to store value. So when we create value for someone, they don't have to barter with us. They could say, hey, this is a place where you could then tap into someone else's value. And the way that wealth is created is we exchange. The more we exchange with each other, the more value is created. I can't adjust myself, but you know, you can and a lot of other chiropractors can. Like when I heard you and Dr. Bueller talk, I understood part of it, but I didn't understand all of it. Like I was like, damn, you guys are going deep. And I'm so glad that you have this passion and this knowledge around it because then it could bless my life. But I can go that deep on money and finance so that you could do what you do best, I do what I do best best, and we're both better off. And so if the mindset is always, I got a scrimp, save, sacrifice, defer, delay, I've got a budget, I've got to cut back, that no one shrinks away to wealth. Yet most people think that that's the game of money. But the game of money is a game of expansion, value creation, service, solving problems and adding value. And if it's anything other than that, it's a game of limitation which doesn't lead to prosperity.

Yeah. So if, if I'm known for one thing, it's probably one liners. But one of the one liners that I say incredibly often, I heard from you the first time, which is money follows value. And just recognizing that everything we teach, everything we do in the, on the practice side or the business side, at the remarkable practice, is about creating value. Right? So, and there's actually a four step process. There's creating value and then there is delivering value, then there's adding value, then there's capturing value, right? This, this. There's this whole sequential. And if you interrupt any of those, you're interrupting how money works and flows. Obviously, creating value is the education process, right? So as people don't really understand what's available to them through chiropractic here, or even what health is or sickness is, what the wellness paradigm is, right? So you have to create value, and that's an education process. Delivering value is the execution process. That's keeping your promises, educate and adjust, right? Drive better health outcomes and a better health experience. And then there's adding value, which answers the question, why do you get adjusted regularly? Why? Why have you seen Bueller for decades? And why do you get your kids adjusted? Whatever the answer to that is the value add, that's the perception piece of this. And then finally there's the capturing value, which is the transaction piece of this, which is exchanging that value, that stored value for your works of service and love. So this whole value equation, to me, we've gone deep on. So I think the first time I heard you say money follows value, I was like, that's my guy. So let's unpack that a little bit because I think for most people, they've got this distorted viewpoint around money. And if you understand, like, we're all about loving on people or driving better health outcomes and a better health experience, it's like that's actually value. And money is a reflection of the value that you're willing to add into your community, right?

It's important to understand that it's a representation of value, that it's not intrinsically valuable. We are intrinsically valuable as human beings as having a soul, being of God, you know, like, that's intrinsic value. But then we can store value as a reflection of the value we create inside of money or with money, which means there's energy to that because we put forth some degree of effort. Now, look, there is some degree of luck that comes with money. There's people that inherit it, there's people that marry into it. There's people that win a lottery. But that's more of a curse than a blessing most times because it's kind of like if someone came to the gym with you and I and we're like, hey, check out this Echo bike. Just go as hard as you can for 60 seconds and then they nearly die and throw up if they've never been on one before. But you know, when you've done it, you get a little bit more used to it. You build that muscle and money is a muscle that we have to build. And if we don't build that muscle to make more of it, to keep more of what we make without having to cut back to grow the money appropriately aligned with our investor DNA and then ultimately grow ourselves, if we grow our money without growing ourselves, that gap is called risk. And that's where people have fear and scarcity, that's where they have loss and that's where they even feel erroneous beliefs like guilt and shame around it. Because maybe they think, oh, I have more than someone else. And then they actually sabotage themselves because of these belief systems that were handed down from other generations or statements and sentiments from family and friends and even well intentioned preachers and teachers. But the reality is like money is something that could be an absolute blessing if it's a companion to value. It's a curse if it's devoid of it. So if someone just gives someone money, they don't know how to create value, that's going to collapse them. They're under a squat rack with £400. They've never done it before. That's going to be terrible. Right? But if you build up to it, you can handle it.

Let's unpack that a little bit further because, you know, our audience is, you know, this is the remarkable CEO podcast, right? So for chiropractors specifically. So, you know, you've got thousands of listeners right now who self identify as CEOs or they're aspiring CEOs in this space, right? So you're talking to the business owners, you're talking to the decision makers, right? So you know, they come in with their own sort of mindset, you know, around what's possible in their business or you know, deservingness around, you know, what they could turn their business into, you know, the productivity and the profitability potential of their business. And I, man, I hear that shortcoming, that gap of people just really having guilt issues. And it's almost like there's two ends of the spectrum. People have extreme limiting beliefs around the deservingness around money and the value that they're adding. And they do end up self sabotaging or they don't even take the risk and get there, right? So and then the other end of the spectrum, right, so where there's just people that understand and just it's chiropractic is who they are and what they do and they really own the value of what we're doing and the changes that we're making for people. And there's almost nothing in the middle so let's, let's talk to the other side of the, that spectrum where it's like, how do you reconcile that gap, Garrett? Like, like, how do you get into that belief system?

Yeah, we got like two scarcity belief systems here. The playing not to lose, which is the people that hold on tight, they scrimp, they save, they sacrifice, they defer, they're not very good action takers, you know, and that's either like a miser that plays the game called preservation, hold on to what they got, or a conservative playing the game called accumulation, which is always about one day, someday, but it's always kind of like, what can you hold on to, what can you eliminate? What could you cut out? CEOs are more on this other side called playing to win, right? Which is either like a striver playing a game called status, or a high roller playing game called opportunity. But it could still be a limiting game of scarcity because it's never about today and enjoying the present. It's only about the future at the expense of, you know, forever, because there's never enough. But the reality is there's a different way to go, which is if you learn to co create, especially when you're a CEO, like who are the people that support and inspire you, who creates accountability? So you move beyond scarcity. Then you learn to eliminate things that are no longer useful based upon who you are as a leader and what you're capable of so that you have the time and space for what matters most. Then third, you learn to delegate roles so that people can own that delegation and it's not a task that comes back to you. And finally, you learn to collaborate, which is you find these people that have different capabilities than you so you could accomplish more as an organization and a group. And that's what a CEO has to do. But that means we have to play the winning game of co creation, delegation and collaboration versus a losing game of isolation and scarcity. And so instead of being a miser playing a game of preservation, you become a mindful manager that thinks about, how can I plug financial leaks and reduce waste in an organization. Or instead of being a conservative, you become a planner and think, how do we create effectiveness and efficiency with initiatives to make sure that there's pro formas and know what's going on. Or instead of a striver, you become a creator, which is an artist, an inventor, entrepreneur, where you lead with value and pave new pathways. Or instead of a high roller, you become a catalyst, a visionary, a connector, a mover, and shaker you think and play big and show ways that people can win together. So what you got to do is if you're one of those four Personas, you got to find the winning Personas that you are not to add to the collaborative team in order to grow properly. But when people are stuck in thinking about reduction, they don't invest enough in the good employees that could actually take them further. And being cheap about that means you have someone that occupies time and my in your mind. And now you're less productive because you're trying to micromanage instead of be, you know, building a big, beautiful vision. Because part of it is nothing like a small mind to kill a big vision. And someone that might be useful in an organization in the early stages might not be useful years down the road, because instead of being a tailwind, they become a headwind. They justify their existence. They complain all the time. They get into victimhood. They didn't grow as an individual. And the hardest thing as a CEO is to know when to say, this is no longer okay and it's time for you to move on. And a lot of chiropractors keep them for far too long because they don't want to hurt their feelings. They're afraid of the difficult conversations. But that's it. Immaturity in leadership, even though we mistake it for kindness, it's not kindness and compassion. It's simply complacent escapism. Yeah.

And you're enabling somebody to stay stuck, and that's hurting your business and your impact. Right. So in the remarkable practice we teach the four rights concept, and it's getting the right people in the right seat, doing the right work, the right way. So the right people have three attributes. They're a players who share your core values and buy into your vision story, which is vision story is, where are we going? What does success look like to us in that next iteration? So what you just said there in that last piece is that's a dynamic thing, Right? So. And the person that might have bought into your vision story for the last five years may not be the person that's going to buy into the vision story for the next five or ten years. And you know, there's a very often that's for a season. People are with us for a season and for a reason. And you have to be aware of that. And people tell themselves stories all the time, and they end up holding onto that person that creates not just a deficiency, but potentially a toxicity. And that creates the interference, the natural state of growth of the Business. I love that. But what I'd like to do is I. You know, one thing that I love about how you teach and present is you organize these frameworks. And I just heard that avatar framework. And I'm going to ask you. Sorry. To double back for us because there was so much gold there. I don't want people to miss it. I heard that with four different avatars, there's a four of let's call when you're at your worst and when you're at your best type of, you know, toggle.

Right.

So if you could. Do you mind delineating those again and be able to say one thing we do quite a bit in the CEO program is stop doing and start doing right. So we all need to stop doing less more than we need to start doing less. Right. So let's go through the. When you're at your worst, you're this avatar, and when you're at your worst, you behave like this, this, you need to stop doing this, this and this. And then when you're at your best, you grow into the next iteration of you or the leader. You be this avatar and start doing this, this and this. Can I ask you to do that? Because I heard it and I immediately see an infographic and I hope you have one you can share.

Yeah. When we're. When we're in our worst, then we're in the consumer condition where we look to take more than we give. We operate by the rules of isolation and scarcity that is usually governed by fear, doubt and worry. It's more take than it is give. It's more reduction than it is production. And so ultimately it's really selfish instead of in service. And when that happens, the first money Persona is a miser. A miser goes, I've got to hold on to what I've got. They know what the cheapest gas is in town. They know, you know, the price per ounce of everything. As Jay Z would say, they know the price of everything but the value of nothing. You know, that's kind of the miser. And I grew up in a family of misers because they were just afraid, like, what if we don't have enough money? What if we don't make it? What if the mines go on strike because they were coal miners? Like, I get where that came from. But on the flip side, their winning Persona, the winning Persona, the way we flip is through co creation, delegation and collaboration. It's about team. It's about like, you know, it's that saying, if you want to go Fast, go alone if you want to go far, bring people with you. And that's the bottom line is, is we become a mindful manager. If instead of just thinking about your own budget, you think about how to improve an organization and start thinking like, where's their financial leaks? Where can you plug holes? Where can you get the same software that does the similar thing? Or without having to pay as much fee, like, they're super useful because it's not just about elimination. It's about value creation. And that's kind of the catalyst. And a mindful manager is detail oriented. They're efficient, they're great at improving things, they're good at reducing waste. So that's the first category. Misers are isolated and in scarcity. Mindful managers are in abundance and collaborative. The second one, still playing not to lose, is a conservative. Nothing to do with politics. It's just simply a fiscal philosophy that says, you know, this is the Dave Ramsey, the Susie Ormonds that, hey, you just have to save for the future. You got to pay off everything and just have money and retirement plans because one day someday when you're too damn old to enjoy it, you could finally go take that trip. You know, that's kind of the. These people in, in the. The conservatives are very much know it alls. They're overly analytical. They judge people for not saving more money and being diversified in a portfolio. And are, are you stupid? How do you not know to do an index fund versus a managed fund? Like, like they're very condescending because they are researched miser. They just put the money into the mattress more than put it into a diversified portfolio where on the flip side, the planner is stable. They're thoughtful, they're strategic. Think like a cfo. You know, they go, hey, let's monitor the effectiveness of this initiative. Let's see how we could be more. We can mitigate risk and maybe be more resourceful. So that's the planner side of things. Now on the other side, we got the striver that plays the game called status. Like, you know, I'm a striver when I'm in scarcity. It's like, I'm just gonna work through it. I'll just do more. You know, it's like, you see that kind of nature. It's just like thinking that more is better and the striver wants to earn it. But they like their status. You know, they like to, to show what they've been able to do. The downside to them is they sacrifice too much. They. They don't Handle other areas of their life, sometimes at all costs. At all costs. And so they think that they'll eventually do better, but they are habitual where if we flip it to the creator, the creator knows how to build other people up. The creator knows how to like in be, you know, invent. They know how to like, you know, rally people around and inspire leverage. Right. It's just the difference again, it's. It's in the collaboration, not in the isolation. And you know these people that wear a badge or moniker of like, I work 16 hours a day. I'm like, oh, you didn't learn about how to delegate. That's sad.

You know, oh, brute force. You're a laborer.

It's like, cool. Yeah. I mean, great job. And that's kind of, you know, the strivers downside where the creator is an artist, an inventor, an entrepreneur. They lead with value, they bring people together. And finally there's the high roller. Now here, the deal with the high roller is they are fun, man. High rollers, they know how to entertain. They're probably named, never born in one uppers, you know, never bored. Never bored. Might rent the Airbnb and say it's theirs. They might rent the car, say it's theirs. They look like they've got it together on and by the way, they're always into a deal, but they don't do the details of it. So they're very highly dangerous. They get a lot they. And every now and they get lucky on a deal. So people think they're really smart and then they lose a lot of money with them. So high rollers are up and down where a catalyst, A catalyst knows that they're not the detail oriented person. A catalyst knows how to create a vision and cast it and build a winning game and then find the people that are planners and mindful managers so that it actually gets done. Because they're so good at what and why, but they suck at how and when. Yeah. And if you have good catalysts in your life, life is good because they know how to position you, introduce you. They know how to, you know, like they're your biggest refers, all that kind of stuff. They say things about you that you wouldn't say about yourself because you'd sound like you're bragging. But they say it so eloquently. Catalysts make the world go around, but they're. When they're in the shadow of high roller, they're the most dangerous personality on the planet. They destroy wealth faster than anyone.

Man, I love to hear this, and it's just fleshing out something that we pride ourselves on in TRP is we do. We. We've created chiropractics, business school, and we are teaching people how to create world class teams because that's just been such a gap over the years, right? So as. As I listen to this, you know, I'm. I'm now recognizing that where each one of these avatars fits under the Personas that we've presented, right? So we like to say the best teams in the world are diverse, right? So, you know, you want to have a diverse team because you can imagine that each one of those people is a genius and is an incredibly important part of a team. Like you, like you just ended with there, you know, that last example of the Catalyst is like, the Catalyst is the one that, as the name suggests, gets things started, right? High thrust, loves to start things, gets everybody excited, gets the momentum moving, right? So. And. But typically terrible at finishing, right?

So. And you need.

And you need them, right? So you need that activation energy to get everything moving. But the best ones in the world understand that they suck at the. On the backside of that, typically, because they're usually enamored by the next opportunity, right? So their job in the Village is to get it started, get it going, and make sure that they are buttressed by somebody on the backside of that thing to make sure that they follow through. High detail, right? So I love this, Garrett. I think this is incredibly valuable.

I'll just give everybody money unmasked for free. They could just like DM me Garrett B. Gunderson. If they put Remarkable, then I know it's from Stephen the Man Franson, and I'll just give him the audiobook for free. And it's got the Persona quiz so they can find out which Persona they are.

So you have a quiz you like a questionnaire that I. I'm embarrassed. I haven't. I've not taken that yet. All right, So.

I know.

I'll include you. We, you know, we. We need to catch up. For sure. We both got a lot going on, but this is my newest book. And dude, it took me since 2008 to build what the Personas were, because I'm not. My talent isn't research. So I had to build the team to help me research. And I just have to go through thousands of clients over the years to understand it. But it's like, I could. My kids can watch Parks and Rec and be like, they could call out which money Persona. They could watch the office, they can call it the money Persona. You know, they know our own money Personas. And you know, it's so helpful to understand because it also means when I see someone, I want to see their winning Persona. What happens? A lot of times people take the test and they tell me their shadow Persona. I'm like, that's just your shadow Persona. It's not who you are, it's just if you operate from scarcity. And it's interesting that the inclination is that people identify with the shadow instead of the winning. Yes, most of the time. Yes. But the winning is the nature when we collaborate.

Yes. And they probably take an aspirational stance. I know I would. So, you know, with your permission, I'll adopt this. I'm going to create my own fluency with it and I'll bring it into our system because 95% of our problems are people problems. Right. So Jeff Smart taught us that from top grading. So that's absolutely true in the chiropractic space. And if we recognize as CEOs, our job description is to build world class teams. We have to add every dimension to this because the money dimension is incredibly important. So because they take their personal money blueprint into the workspace with them and you know, you have, you, you should be aware of who should be talking to people and patients, your customers about money and who should never get near it.

Right.

So this is an important insight for a CEO to recognize. Like, oh, there's an interface, that there's a conversation. It's like we can't control the consumer's perspective, but we can absolutely control who on our team is interfacing.

If you put a mindful manager in charge of the money, it's going to be a problem. I mean, as far as collecting money or presenting the programs, as far as like monitoring the money, they're amazing.

Yeah, they put them in the back office, in the business office, give them a spreadsheet.

Hey, you know what we got billed something that wasn't supposed to be built. They'll find that. But if you say, hey, go ahead and present a case, they'll be like, oh, well, you know, you could break this up and you don't need to do it all at once. And you know, there are cheaper offices and you're like, what? But it's just their nature if they're scared.

Hey, Doc, Steven Fransen here. If you're like me, you know that we're in the business of saving lives. And when business is good and everybody wins, that's the good news. But here's the bad news, most chiropractors don't own a business at all. They own a job. It's a job they love, but it's a job and far too often it feels like that job owns them. Is this true for you? Do you own a business or a job? Have you built and do you run your practice on brute force? Does it rely fully on your time, your effort, a pound of your flesh? Are you responsible for all growth, for all new patient generation? How about new patient conversions? Is it all up to you? How about patient care and delivery? Are you a sole practitioner, an owner operator who owns the practice but is also the only one that is head down and bum up taking care of all the patients? Is revenue generation or collections all up to you? Let me ask you the most telling question, Doc. What would happen if you took 90 days off? What breaks? In my experience, most on purpose chiropractors do not lay awake at night worrying about their practice. They worry about their business. Let's slay that dragon. The Remarkable CEO program has helped hundreds of chiropractors just like you turn the job that they love into the business that they've always wanted. Are you ready to run and build your practice on leverage instead of brute force? Do you want to create the scalability and durability that will allow you to make a bigger impact and a bigger income? What would it mean to grow your practice, increase your productivity and your profitability? Do you want to get your time freedom back? Are you ready to turn your pirate ship into a battleship? If this sounds like you, then the remarkable CEO program is for you. Just last year, 53 of our remarkable clients received the Seven Figure Club Award, meaning they hit the million dollar mark for the first time or their next million dollar level, be it 2 million, 3 million, 10 million. Up to 36 million and growing now, Doc, is it crazy to imagine that your practice could be next? Click the link below and learn how to apply for the next cohort of the Remarkable CEO program. We look forward to working closely with you and creating the the business that supports your remarkable life, not competes with it. So as you build world class teams, we've really. I've been going geeking out on this concept. If you've ever read Jerry Weintraub's book book, you know I'm dead if I stop talking.

This is remember because you, you, you recommended it when we were in the accelerated learning group. And so that's because it was better to listen to him tell the stories.

That's exactly right. So one of My favorite business books of all time. And he tells the story, if you remember, of Elvis and the Colonel. And you know, at the end of the day, Elvis is obviously, everybody knows Elvis, right? So he's that big customer facing, right, the, the, the talent who's actually delivering the product, so to speak. But behind every Elvis, there's a Colonel, and that's the manager that makes sure that there is a stadium, that there are butts and seats, that there are this popcorn and T shirts to buy. Right. And all the marketing that happen, right? So it's like the Elvis and Colonel dynamic is something that I've brought into all of my leadership with my own businesses. But also telling our associate, I mean, all of our clients the same thing is like, you've got to recognize with every initiative, there's always going to be an Elvis and there's always going to be a Colonel. And now you've brought a whole new dimension to that whole perspective of like, very seldom is it just a one person thing. There's always, almost always a yin yang dynamic where when you're running a business and now we have the yin yang money dynamic, which is enriching. Thanks, buddy.

Hey, man, you bring the best out in me. What can I say? I love it.

I love it.

All right, so quick, just shift. Because I know you've worked with so many chiropractors and you know, we've got this construct that we created called the Four Seasons to the chiropractic career, right? This launch, build, scale and exit, right? So launches when you're first year in business, not first year in practice, when you start a business, right? So launch, build is when you're an established business, but you are an owner, operator, right? You're a solo practitioner, you own the business, but you're also the person that's head down, bum up, taking care of all the patients, right? The solo practitioner. Then scale is when you've taken that job you love and turned it into the business you've always wanted. And that's hiring other doctors to work with you. Associates, partners. Maybe it's multiple associates or even multiple brick and mortars. And then there's exit, Right? Right. So which is where you're looking for your successor. You're looking for a buyer, you want an exit strategy. And we all want the same thing, right? We want a graceful and profitable exit. Right? So launch, build, scale and exit. This podcast in particular really speaks to the build Doctor who's trying to learn how to scale the scale. Doctor who's looking to learn how to scale. Well and then the scale doctor who's looking to exit. So it's the build it to sell it conversation. So just to kind help you narrow in on the type of you, you've worked with chiropractors in all four seasons, but you're talking to those doctors that are really in scale. Right. So what are some of the, you know, just in closing like 1, 2, 3 big pitfalls. You see these doctors that are like most likely they've been focusing on creating scalability, right. They've operationalized everything and then they focus on professionalizing the business like building a world class team. And that increases their, you know, optionality. You know, they get their time back. Right. So they create durability we call it. But they've found that increasing productivity does not necessarily equate with increasing profitability. Right. So very often they're in this sort of quagmire. It's the gap, I call it. So between have made the investment, I've built up this business and I'm a little upside down right now and man I was more profitable and I was doing everything myself and you know, as head down, bum up and you know, working 60 hours a week. How do you address that with these docs? Because it's a really common dynamic. I know we have our approach to systematizing this and helping them get over the gap. How do you, how do you approach that with clients? Cause I'm sure they show up with the same things. Like this is why I'm calling you is. Cause I have this money gap going on.

Yeah, so like a couple things here. Number one, I think in that early phase in launch, it's like we learned to invest in ourself. Like how do you invest and grow the skills right. Then when you get to build it's like how do you invest in a team? Totally different skill set. And some people wait too long to invest in a team because they're so busy either investing in themselves or even worse, just trying to save in the retirement plan at the expense of building something extraordinary. Like I think that that's at odds for a lot of people that they're taking lean, right. And so they're putting all this money into a plan they know nothing about, locked away till 59 and a half while they're starving out their business because you could pay 10, 20% more for an employee and get 100% more productivity. Because a team is far outperform B teamers as we hear from top grading and so many of the books out there. Right in the studies. So I think that's, that's one issue. The second is, look, people just don't handle their finances enough. Like there's 10% or more of people's income through four eyes. The IRS, 98% of chiropractors last tax job cut were overpaying on taxes. It was as low as 93% before that. But once there was a change, I just saw tons of mistakes. Number two, interest. There's so many people that haven't restructured loans, renegotiated interest rates or reallocated funds that are underperforming to pay off higher interest rate loans. And that's just costing them substantial money over time. Number three, investments. A lot of people don't have downside protection. They have a bunch of hidden fees. They have a lot of stuff that they would be better off putting money into and that's robbing their business. And then number four, they just don't design their insurance efficiently. So they insure inconsequential things that cost a bunch versus ensuring catastrophic things which cost very little. And by those four eyes, that's 10% of their income. That would improve the bottom line. If someone's trying to improve the bottom line by 10%. Like if it's revenue, you have, revenue comes in, you've got expenses fixed and very come in. Like this is simply, you know, maybe you have to pay an accountant a little bit of money. Maybe you have to pay, you know, one of my programs a little money. But the thing is we're talking about 80% margin on this kind of stuff. So it's bottom line dollars which, which can really help out. And then some of that might go into an important part of the business with people, processes or automation and technology. Some of it might go into simply improving someone's lifestyle because if the doctor's exhausted because they don't have enough quality of life, that impacts their energy, which impacts what they do in their business, which means they have diminishing returns because they're, they're, they're stretched thin. And so maybe it's that they're hiring someone with that extra money that comes in, or maybe it's just that gets them closer to financial independence. So I really think these three things really help them when it comes to the four phases that you're talking about. Number one, like build a practice that you don't want to sell, but you can. So follow all the remarkable advice that Steven gives you so that you can sell at any time, but don't make yourself want to sell because you did it wrong. The people that usually want to sell is because they sacrifice too much and they didn't build enough infrastructure. That's right. And by the way, when they sell now you get rid of your tax advantage now you get rid of your inflation protection now you get rid of like where you have a degree of control now you're going to put money in things you know nothing about and.

You'Re appreciating asset that was cash flowing for you.

Right. It's like I was like, I don't know that that's the best idea, but I think being able to do that is critical because you want to have that. Optionality is key, but I want you to also have that. So really, you know, the four eyes is going to be super helpful with, with finding the cash and then being able to maybe reinvest that back in the business while also maybe getting some additional support so that you're not running yourself too ragged, you know, is part of it as well, so.

That's right. That's right. And the business return, you know, you, you know you made me do all of those eyes, right. And went through that whole process and that system years ago. So now you're taking those monies times the 10 years. This is multiplicative. Right. So it's like once you've made a fix and change it, it's. This was kicking your ass every year.

Right.

It wasn't like a, oh a one time oversight. Right. So. And then redirecting those monies directly and reinvesting in where I do have expertise, experience and influence my businesses.

Yes.

Instead of chasing, you know, 12% on the S&P only or chasing 15 to 25% in, you know, real estate, whether it's, you know, commercial or residential. And I'm now illiquid. Yes, of course, I've got my whole life insurance and infinite banking going on. But I take my money and I put it into my businesses.

The roic, your business growth. I mean there's, I haven't seen other investments that have that roi, Stephen.

Yeah, your ROIC and business that you own, I mean you're talking 100, 200, 300% return. You comparing that? Of course we're in the market. Of course we have real estate. But, but after we've spent every dollar, we could invest intelligently in our business.

So I only have real estate to store my value, not to create cash flow because I do not like having tenants. I, I like having like my real estate's my books. I have 10 books. Those are 10 pieces of real estate, right?

Yes.

So they continue to produce. I've given them upgrade. Two of them I rewrote. So that's one thing. Ip, you have ip. My businesses that I control. I don't want to invest outside of that because now I have a meeting that I don't want to be part of, a document I have to read that I don't want to read. Someone tell me why it's late or didn't perform how it was supposed to, dealing with people getting paid fees. Whether it performs or not. I just don't like that system. If we look at my portfolio in my 20s, I had oil and gas, real estate, bridge financing funds that I was a partner in. I had, you know, so many pieces of real estate that I was managing, I had. I actually did have a 401k for a couple of years in my 20s before I figured out what it was. And the thing is, I had no extra time. Now I make more money and have less distraction. I have three pieces of real estate, I have some bitcoin, I have whole life and I have my business and I have my ip, I don't do. I get ideas all the time like, yeah, I'm not going to do it. And I've missed out on opportunities that worked. But yeah, you know, most things I missed out on were distractions that were not going to work and it would have taken my time. In my psyche, when I've lost money in the past, it hurts my. Like, I feel so terrible because I feel like I should know better and how did I get seduced by it? And I don't want to have anything that could like, diminish my confidence because my confidence is important to create value. So I just have three things. I want to be financially fit. My financial office is in order. I can handle financial stress. I've got liquidity, I've got staying power. Number two, financial independence. I have recurring revenue from assets that cover my basic expenses. So every day is a choice, not a have to. And then number three, financial freedom. A place where my mind is about how do I create value? And that's the first and foremost thought versus, like, how do I, you know, do I have enough money? Like, people are financially free. Money's not the primary reason or excuse they do or don't do something. It's a consideration. It's no longer the consideration. Fit, independent and free, that's the game for me, you know.

So I knew, you know, when we first met that I was talking to the Right. Guy. Because you always started with why. When you talk about sole purpose is the phrase that you use. Right, right. So when you talk about your why. Right. So and understanding, like, with every dollar you spend, you should have a why behind it. And every choice, because every spend and every investment is a choice. Right. You're choosing something. It's like, what are you trying to accomplish? And yes, you know, I'm in the s and P500. I was in the market. Why? To mitigate inflation.

Right.

I'm in real estate. Absolutely in real estate. Why? Because I'm trying to mitigate taxation.

Right.

I own businesses because I want to build wealth.

Right.

And it's your very specific, deliberate purposes for why you're investing in different segments. And I know that, you know, your, you know, the undercurrent for everything that you advise, at least everything I've heard you speak on, the books I've read that you've written and conversations that we've had. It always goes back to listen, there's going to be lots of opportunities. And, you know, I think God wants us to make, you know, to. To create a life where we say no to most opportunities. Right. So we can say yes to his appointments. Right. So stay focused on where, you know, your sole purpose is, is like, that's where you're going to have the most confidence and the most competence. Right. So it's where you have the most experience and. And you have the most expertise and the most influence. Right. Staying in that space because, you know, money doesn't just follow value, it follows confidence. Right. So when you're in this marketplace as a business owner, just recognize it. You're in the catbird seat. Most of the advice you hear people give, it doesn't apply to you. You're in a different category. You own a business and you need to make your decisions like a business owner.

Entrepreneurial finance is different than personal finance, that's for sure.

100%. All right, brother, you dropped some bombs here. And I know everybody wants to get a summary of all the nuggets. So talk to me about this new book and how do we get our hands on it?

Yeah, so Garrett B. Gunderson is my Instagram. I do little daily drops. I love watching when you did the seven figures of the new six figures. Such a good video. I've watched it multiple times just laughing because it's so right. But yeah, Garrett B. Gunderson on Instagram just put Remarkable in the dms. We'll hook you up with the audiobook on us and you can listen to it. Money on masked. I mean, I think it's my best one yet. It took me seven years to write, even longer to research these money Personas. So I think it's just super helpful and practical. Opens up the question. The very first line is, what would you do with a billion dollars? I just like that question right out the gate to like, get people thinking bigger and, you know, it takes you on a ride from there. So awesome.

Awesome. Gary Gunderson or just GG on my phone. So I love you, brother. I appreciate all you've done for us and for chiropractic. As I said, you know, what chiropractic needs is or what the world needs is chiropractic. And what chiropractic needs is more successful chiropractors. So thank you for helping us help more people, bro.

You got it, bro. Please stick around for more business insights from this week's bonus interview with our.

Remarkable success partner dedicated to helping you more successfully help more people.

Enjoy.

So, guys, I am super pumped and excited to be having a conversation today with the fantastic Vanessa Lewis from investoris. And let me tell you why I'm excited for this conversation. After working with hundreds, I would say at this point, close to thousands of chiropractic officers. Here's what I've realized. If chiropractors follow systems, process, procedure, if they engage in training, if they engage in coaching, they end up building an absolutely remarkable practice. Now, along with the remarkable practice comes fantastic healthy cash flow. But here is my experience vane, Vanessa, most of these chiropractors also have a terrible job at managing finances, right? So they either end up spending just as much as they're earning, their lifestyle continues to increase, they're not investing wisely, or sometimes they're investing poorly. And so they're helping serve a lot of people. They're making great impact, they're making great income, but they don't actually manage their finances at all. So I am super excited to have this conversation today. Why don't you take us through Vanessa, exactly how do you help chiropractors when it comes to the financial side of practice? How do you help when it comes to multiplying wealth? Take us through investoris and exactly what you can do for us and how.

You can help us.

Well, thanks for having me, Dr. Bobby. I'm the financial strategist and senior mortgage broker with team at investorist. And one of our beautiful clients, the lovely Dr. Molly Ways, she put it in one of our videos when she explained, she said, everybody starts this wealth creation journey on their own. And the best that you can come with is doctor and you end up going down this path or this rabbit hole of what's next. So that's where we step in and we offer uniquely tailored solutions because there's not one strategy that fits all. It's gotta be tailored to understand what wealth means to you. And we are an organization that is value driven, so we've gotta understand what you value and then layer in the relevant services that you need. But we understand that you don't have the time to go see 10 different people, you wanna have a chat to one, then simplify that for you. So I'm going to talk a little bit about the services that we do actually offer because one of the questions that always comes up all the time is what is it that you guys do and can you even help me now with the services that we do offer? I don't like to use the word budgeting, but I'm going to start with the money coaching piece of it because it's understanding and giving every dollar a purpose so you know where your money goes. We can also help with the finance piece of it because sometimes you don't understand what you can borrow. If you would like to invest, you need to understand what your borrowing capacity is or if you need to get some equipment for the practice, you've got to understand is there affordability. So that's what we look at as well. So we look at lending options, we will look at, okay, do you have the right, are you with the right bank? Do you have the right product, the right interest rate, the right structure? Because all of that helps with savings, which sometimes people don't understand. Now, in addition to finance and money coaching, the property piece of it is quite relevant and important because you get access to the lovely Bel, who's an absolute legend in our team, who's built this over the last 35 years of networks and relationships and connections she sourced and I'll share a couple of real life examples as well to validate this. But she's so good at what she does with finding the right investment, ensuring this tax, the tax effectiveness is working. It's a good return on investment. Then we've got to take it to the next step to go, all right, okay, we've bought the properties. Who's going to manage this? Because that's where people start to get a bit overwhelmed and go, oh, okay, do I have to manage the tenant? Who's going to look after that? It's going to be too much of hard work. But that's where we also provide the property management services. And because it's in house, it is a lot cheaper than what you would get elsewhere. So there's the value add for our clients because we look at getting the tenant in, ensuring we've got the quantity surveyors reports in place, is there the right amount of depreciation that can be claimed or all of that gets factored. So there's the property investment and then there's the property management piece of it as well. Then we take it to the next step. And I know there's lots of services that I'm going to simplify it in a minute. But there's also the financial planning piece, the accounting piece and the super review. Because once you've acquired your investments, you might want to have a think about estate and wills planning. You want to ensure that's in play. You want to ensure that you insured adequately. Do a review of your insurances. Is there enough in life income protection? All of that's gotta be looked at. That's where the strategist, the one person in the middle, coordinates all of these services for you. Have a chat with just the strategist who will then determine the relevant services that you need.

That is awesome. So what I'm hearing is you guys are a one stop shop, which means if I'm someone that's looking to purchase my first property, maybe I'll be working chiropractic and it's time for me to. But it's my principal base of residence that I'd like to kind of live in. Definitely go and talk to you guys. Whether I'm someone that's looking to create leverage and you know, I know that I can access funds and I want to start making investments and looking after my future. You guys are the ones I should talk to.

Is that right that we are. That we are now going to actually share a couple of real life examples, right. As to how we lay it in the property management, the property investment, the finance, the accounting, financial planning and the money coaching to help achieve the results that we have. These are real life examples. So the very first example that I'm going to share is of the with the lovely Michael and Imogen, the chiropractors in South Australia, when they met us, they had one investment property which was an underperforming investment. Now it had a return on investment that we call yield, which is the rental income versus the value of 2.9% on that particular investment. And they had $488,000 worth of bad debt. Now, owner occupied debt, your home loan pretty much is bad debt because the interest is not tax deductible. 12 months later, they now have two high performing investment properties. So they've gone from one to two. The return on investment or the yield went from 2.9% to 6.5% and the bad debt of $488,000.

Went down to $40,000. So they paid off $448,000 worth of bad debt. Now those are huge numbers and people struggle to believe it, but they're real life examples whereby layering in the right strategies, we've helped them achieve these results. Now I'm going to share another one that I've got here which is a simple. It was a simple refinance and a restructure. All that happened was the client came up to us and said, hey, you know, I've got these two investment properties. Obviously it's not working. The rates are not the best. Do I have the right product? Can you do a review and let me know what you can do? Now when we started the process that, you know, they were on 7%, I think across both the investment properties by a simple refinance and restructure, we brought the rates down to about 6.34 and we saved them about $1200 a month across the two properties. Now we also reviewed what products they had and we saved them on their product fees as well. So all up across the two properties, when we do the math, they ended up saving $15,170 a year in repayments and package fees on two loans.

That's amazing. So what I'm hearing you say with both cases is that ultimately guys ends up equally more money in your pocket to do things that you're going to be doing things with. Right. Living life you want to live with. I mean, you know, you want to pay as little tax as possible. You want to make sure that you pay as little dead money as possible. So I'm hearing Vanessa and tell me if I'm right or wrong here. It doesn't matter. The circumstance. Right. Doesn't matter. If I am someone that has already got multiple loans or maybe there's already a structure that's going on. I would be of better fit to actually have a chat to you guys and see is there a better way to structure this, set it up, refinance or reorganize things so that it equals more money in my pocket. Is that right?

Absolutely. And I'm going to take this to the Next step, just with that client that we spoke about where they managed to save 15,100, 172 a year, because I asked them the question to go, all right, what would you do with this extra money? Would you go on a holiday or would you like to put that back into your home and redirect your original repayments? They actually went down the path of redirecting the old repayments. So, yes, we saved them the money, but when we refinanced, they continued the old repayments. What that actually did, that reduced the loan term. They were scheduled to pay it over 60, 16 years. That dropped down to six because now they're paying more than what they need to pay. The math on that. I had to double check the figures twice because sue want me to do that. They saved 10 years over the life of the loan. So instead of paying it over 16, they've paid it over 6. When your workout worked out to be $855,240 in repayments and think about what you could do with that money.

Wow, that's amazing. See, I think a lot of people, they just kind of have these loans that they set up or have this debt that ultimately accurs over time. And they put the effort in the beginning to get it all set up, but then they never really put the effort into review and say, is this still serving me to my optimal, or can this be set up and structured better to benefit me? And that benefit might be either more money in my pocket or it might mean, as you can see, your cases, you describe saving tens of years of the life alone, which means that you get to live the life that you want to live at a much, much sooner, sooner point. Correct?

Correct. 100%. It gives you that flexibility to do what you would like with your time because you don't have to spend all that time working. You can then reconsider and reevaluate where you're at in life. Maybe you want to spend more time with your family because now you've created that wealth, you've created that cash flow to fund the lifestyle that you want to live. Yes, it does.

Yeah, I love it. That's exactly what it's about. So tell me this, Vanessa, what I have to do. So I'm listening to this. What I have to do, who do I have to contact at the moment? This is for primarily Australian clients, is that right? And what would be my next steps if I'm interested in having a chat?

That is correct. If you are interested in having a chat all you've got to do is reach out to the team and book in a discovery call. It is a no obligation call. So you just have like, like I always make this joke to go have a, have a chat to the blonde chick in the middle and she will decide what you need and what services you need and then tailor, make a strategy that works for you. Because we, I think, and Sue's actually brought it up the other day, who is our general manager. We did get one of our clients actually sent her a little review, which was really lovely and I had no idea that she had done that about her experience of dealing with us and the team, which I thought would give, you know, our viewers and our listeners a bit of value add as to who we are. Because everybody really panics and goes when it comes to, you know, companies that offer financial services or what I call. Yep, it's a wham, mam. Thank you, ma'. Am, we've sold you a property. Off we go. But what was testament to our values and what we do was that we weren't solely focus. You could tell from our interactions. And this was the client's feedback. It was not purely based on, okay, yeah, all right, we're here to sell you a property and off you go. That's it. Our job's done. It was not KPI driven. It was over three, over two and three meetings getting to understand what your values are, what was important to you before we decided what strategy you need to help you achieve your end goal. So all you've got to do, all our listeners have got to do is just come have a chat, book in that no obligation discovery call, get an understanding of who we are so that we can then determine how we can help you.

I love it.

Amazing, Vanessa. I love what you guys are doing. I know firsthand. I've had countless people tell me about the amazing work that you've done with them. So, guys, we're going to leave details below so you'll have a link to the website. And what's the best way to book a call with you? Is it through the website?

Yes, definitely. There's a QR code on the website that you quickly scan and gives you direct access to our strategist calendar to book in a time that suits you.

Wonderful. I love it. So there you go, guys. It's not a tomorrow thing, it's not a next week thing. We know that success baby is the action taker. So details are below. Vanessa, thank you so much. I appreciate your time and more importantly, I appreciate everything you're doing for chiropractors and for their teams all around the country. I know you guys have been having fantastic results.

That's awesome. Thanks, Doc. Bobby.

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Remarkable CEO Podcast. Remember, what the world needs now is chiropractic. And what chiropractic needs now is more successful chiropractors. If you like this podcast, please subscribe, share with a friend and leave us a review. And if you'd like to connect with us personally, direct message us on Facebook. Let's LinkedIn or Instagram. Now go and be remarkable.