354 - The Secret to Hiring the Right People

that level of turnover, it just like burns you out because now you have to go find another person, hire another person, onboard that other person, train them, equip them, develop them. That's a lot of bandwidth, right? So the mental overhead associated with this, so you end up tolerating people too long, right? So now they ruined your culture, right? So we like to say that you have exactly the culture you've either curated and created or tolerated.

Hello and welcome to the Remarkable CEO Podcast, a show dedicated to chiropractors who want to transform their job into a business so that they can have a remarkable practice as part of a remarkable life, not instead of one, with your hosts, Dr. Pete Camiolo and Dr. Stephen Franson.

What's up, Remarkables? Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable CEO Podcast. CEO Podcast, chiropractic's number one business podcast. I'm Dr. Steven Fransen.

And I'm Dr. Pete Camiolo.

What's up, everybody? It's so good to be back in the studio. It is Friday morning. I'm excited for the weekend. I'm going to be at home. I've got a big date night with my beautiful bride tonight, meeting up with my goddaughter and her— they're just newly engaged couple. We're going out to dinner in Boston and we're going to spend the night in Boston. Especially energized today, Dr. Pete. I'm really excited for a romantic weekend with my beautiful wife. So, I hope you have something lined up. No more kids for you though, man.

I remember when, you know, in practice, every time we let them know like, oh, Dr. Pete's having another baby, you know, they always get to those comments, especially from the men. You're like, you know how that happens, right?

You know what's causing that.

You got this situation under control. How many is this now? And, you know, super grateful for each one of my kids. I was actually reflecting on that this morning. I had an opportunity to take a bunch of them to different schools and it was a wonderful moment for me. One of my highlights. But, you know, to your point, yeah, full weekend of baseball for us. It's spring. So, we've got prom, senior prom for my oldest. We've got two travel baseball tournaments happening at the same time. I don't know how we're going to pull it off, but it's pretty much every week, every day of my life, it's like, hey, somehow it's all going to come together. Now, we've got a great community of people. Dr. Steven gave me great advice years ago. He said, "Carpool." He just said that. He's like, "The carpool, man. You got to lean on other people to help out with stuff." And we've benefited from that wisdom of just, "Hey, man, could you swing by and pick up one of my kids on your way to the thing because I'm not going to get them there on time?" So, just feeling the need for community. And you know what, Dr. Steven, that makes me think about this community, the community of TRP, the community of the the CEO listeners. Hey, I want to give you a shout-out. Thanks for being a regular listener to our community. We hope that we're kind of like that family that's like, "Yeah, we'll swing by and pick them up on the way." Maybe this is that for you. As you're listening in, you're on the treadmill or you're out for a walk, you're listening in the car or whatever. And this is like, "Man, you just swung by and picked me up and gave me a little ride. I needed this little pick-me-up today." This could be a pickup for you. Take a little bit of the edge off. Our hope is that every time we gather on these podcasts and you lean in and listen, you're just having coffee with Dr. Stephen and I today on a Friday morning as we're having conversations about things that are important, things that are fresh, relevant, straight out of the CEO coaching cohort calls that we're doing on a daily and weekly basis. Dr. Stephen, I'm excited to have the conversation we're going to have today specifically about getting the right people and keeping them. And that whole conversation around team today? Yeah.

I mean, I think we've all been in, as CEOs, we've all been in environments where it's either we're tolerating underperformance and frustrated or, you know, there's some quitting going on, you know, so, you know, out of left field, somebody quits or finally somebody quits, or maybe you've got to the point where you have to fire somebody, right? So, it's like all of that is just like, these are like real team issues. These are, these things really manifest. And we want to talk today about one of the key elements, one of the great predictors of whether somebody is going to be successful on your team or whether you're just inevitably going to end up in this dynamic where you're like, oh my gosh, man, they're underproducing. They're not happy. I'm not happy. We're frustrated. What's going on here? And then eventually, unfortunately, it's either they quit or you have to fire them. And man, is that brutal, right? It's exhausting. You lose momentum. right? So then there's that level of turnover. It just like burns you out because now you have to go find another person, hire another person, onboard that other person, train them, equip them, develop them. That's a lot of bandwidth, right? So the mental overhead associated with this, so you end up tolerating people too long, right? So now they ruined your culture, right? So we like to say that you have exactly the culture you've either curated and created or tolerated. And today's conversation is really about curating that right culture.

right?

That working environment. And we're going to share something with you guys that we learned from somebody who we really appreciate the work that he's done, from Gino Wickman and the work that he did in Traction. So many of you have read that book, Traction, but there's a concept inside of Traction that we're going to double-click on today. One specific piece of it talks about GWC, which is short for gets it, wants it, and has the capacity to do it well. We'll talk briefly about all three of them, but we're going to really dive deep on the wants it element of it, right? So they want it, right? So And Dr. Pete, it's the most important one because, man, frankly, I can help somebody get it. I can help develop the capacity, but man, I just haven't figured out how to get somebody to want it yet.

So, Dr. Steven, I'll make this simple for everybody to understand. I'm going to go to an 8 or 10-year-old baseball field as a way to describe wanting from my perspective. I've seen this over the last— I'll just say this year to date, 2026. Where we're running into challenges with employees either need to be let go or they just leave. And the same thing is happening in both scenarios. It's the W that's missing. In other words, these are people who get it. They understand what it is that's going to be required of the job. They understand, they get it. They get that this is the work that's going to be done. They have the capacity to do it, the time, the energy, and the focus. And at the end of the day, they just don't want it. And I had a conversation with one of my sons who recently told me he didn't want to catch anymore. He's a catcher. He's a good catcher. But I noticed like his, I'm going to use this word, body language. I noticed body language change. And I was like, you're a dog, but you're not acting like a dog when you're out there. And I was like, if you're a catcher, you got to be a dog. Like you've got to, You've got to fire, you got to keep your pitcher locked in and you got to get the rest of the team. They got to see you back there like you're the director and that infield especially is watching you. And what it came down to, I had to have a conversation because he has the talent, he has the training. They're young, 10, okay? At the level of 10, he's got those things. And it came down to, he's like, I just don't want to do it. And I told the coach, because I had this conversation, I was trying to figure out diagnosing what's the issue here. And so I was able to talk to the head coach about it. I said, you know, at the end of the day, I find out what happened. I was like, he doesn't want to do it, but he wants to do other things. It's not that he doesn't want to play baseball, right? It's he just doesn't want to do that position. And he wants to be at shortstop. Like he'd rather be in the outfield. He's like, I'd rather be in the outfield because I just don't want to do this right now. Even though he has the talent, even though he's been trained, and I've actually taken him to private lessons. I mean, we've done a lot of investment in this kid, in this role, because it's such an important role. Doesn't want it. And here's the issue that we have in our practices. If you put somebody at the check-in CA or a checkout CA or somebody who you want to ascend into an office manager role, or you want them to be a business builder associate because that's the one you need, but deep down inside, They don't want the check and see objectives and KPIs and outcomes and to do the work that actually is required to drive the outcome. They understand the job description. Oh, you're gonna hold people accountable to their visits. Oh, you're the boss of today. They understand you're gonna promote stuff, but when it push comes to shove and it's day to day, I don't want to have to get more people signed up for that upcoming workshop. I don't want to have to call people and keep them on track with their appointments. If you don't want to do it, you're not the right person for that position. You have to have the wanting factor. And so, Dr. Stephen, this is a major piece of the 3 letters. It is the passion piece because the reality is the work is hard anyway. I don't care what position you're at, short, you're in center field, you're at check-in, check-out, back office, you're a caregiver, DC, not in a business builder, guess what? It's work and it's hard work and it's going to require sacrifice and discipline and there's going to be some pain involved. Pick which pain you want, but you've got to want it. And if you don't want it, my friend, step aside because there's got to be somebody that we get in here that gets it and wants it and has the capacity to do it. And in our space right now in Cairo, we've got to get better at helping the people that we work with understand what it takes You gotta want it. And if you don't have the want, you don't got it.

Yeah. Like you said, Dr. Pete, if you do want it, it's still wicked hard.

Right?

So, but it's the wanting that will carry you through it. Right? It's what gets you to push through it. Like, so if you don't want it, it's going to be impossible. It definitely won't be sustainable. Let me put it that way. Right? So you could muscle through, like, as long as you see there's a finish line, you can muscle through it.

Right?

But You've got to, you have got to want it. And when we say want it, I mean, you literally have to, this is about putting a person in a position in your practice, right? So it's like understanding, it's like, there's a spot on my team. There's a job description. There's a set of responsibilities organized underneath that job description or that role. This is how you're going to be spending your time. Are you the right person for this role? Right? So these are your 5 responsibilities. This is how the responsibilities are measured. These are your 5 KPIs. Like this is going to be you. This is how you're going to be spending your time, right? This is how you're going to spend your time, energy, focus, and talent. Do you want it?

Right?

So it's like, you have to ask all 3 questions. And this is the key to this, guys. You have to ask them. Don't guess. You're not going to be able to guess this. You're going to say, hey, do you get it? Do you get the role? Like, you want this role? Okay. Do you get it? Why don't you explain it to me? Explain this role to me. You see this title? Okay. You see the 5 bullets? What's that first bullet say? What does that mean? What does that look like? Do you understand how that's measured? What's the KPI? Do you understand why it's measured like that? Do you understand how to influence that? Do you get it?

Okay.

Second bullet. Do you get it? What does that mean? How do you measure it? What does that number tell? How would you influence that? I mean, you guys follow me? It's like all 5 bullets. Like, do you get it? Like, they should be able to explain it back to you. That means they get it. Okay. Second question. Do you want it? Like, now that you get it, you understand it. Can you see yourself doing it and excelling at it? Is this something that's going to energize you? Would you find joy in that? Do you think that's the highest and best use of your talents here? Right? So it's like, you've got to ask them. It's like, do you want it? Are you sure? Like, it can't just be like, oh, it pays more, so I want the position. Oh, it has more authority, so I want the position. Oh, I like that title, so I want the position. Right? That's not it. Just like, is this how you want to spend your time, energy, focus, and talent? This is all about helping us help more people, help more people. This is like, are you sure that this is what you want to do? Right? So do you want it? And then capacity to do it is, do you have the skills to do it? Do you have the time to do it? Do you have the bandwidth to do it? Do you have the horsepower to do it? And are you cognitively hardwired to do it well? Right? So that's where objective testing gets in. Gets it, wants it, and has the capacity to do it. The wanting it, guys, is where we fall down, especially if we don't ask. If you don't ask them, Dr. Pete, when I'm hiring somebody, I try to talk them out of it.

Yes.

Here's the, here's the kicker. This is how people fall down on this. I will try to talk you out of the role. I want you to fight me for it. I want to see you argue with me that you're the right person for that role, that you are the person that has the chops to do that well, that you're going to crush it in this role. I will try to talk you out of it. My experience with business owners, especially chiropractors, you guys are good salespeople. And you try to sell people on the role. And that is a huge mistake. Yes, it's Type 2 marketing, which is always be recruiting, trying to find your team members. You market appropriately so you don't have to sell, right? You should be marketing appropriately so the right people are compelled to apply for the job and the wrong people are repelled from the job. If you market properly, you shouldn't be in a position where you're selling them. In fact, the way to sell them is the push away. Don't try to talk people into the role or sell them on the role, Dr. Pete. You are already screwed if that's your approach, because you're probably highly influential. You are probably persuasive. You are probably trained at sales, and you will talk somebody in. You'll walk out of the room, and next thing you know, they're going to be like, what have I done? Hey, Doc. Stephen Franson here. If you're like me, you know that we're in the business of saving lives, and when business is good, everybody wins. That's the good news. But here's the bad news: most chiropractors don't own a business at all. They own a job. It's a job they love, but it's a job. And far too often, it feels like that job owns them. Is this true for you? Do you own a business or a job? Have you built and do you run your practice on brute force? Does it rely fully on your time, your effort, a pound of your flesh. Are you responsible for all growth, for all new patient generation? How about new patient conversions? Is it all up to you? How about patient care and delivery? Are you a sole practitioner, an owner-operator who owns the practice but is also the only one that is head down and bum up taking care of all the patients? Is revenue generation or collections all up to you? Let me ask you the most telling question: Doc, what would happen if you took 90 days off? What breaks? In my experience, most on-purpose chiropractors do not lay awake at night worrying about their practice. They worry about their business. Let's slay that dragon. The Remarkable CEO Program has helped hundreds of chiropractors just like you turn the job that they love into the business that they've always wanted. Are you ready to run and build your practice on leverage instead of brute force? Do you want to create the scalability and durability that will allow you to make a bigger impact and a bigger income? What would it mean to grow your practice, increase your productivity and your profitability? Do you want to get your time freedom back? Are you ready to turn your pirate ship into a battleship? If this sounds like you, then the Remarkable CEO Program is for you. Just last year, 53 of our Remarkable clients received 7-figure club award, meaning they hit the million-dollar mark for the first time or their next million-dollar level, be it $2 million, $3 million, $10 million, up to $36 million and growing. Now, Doc, is it crazy to imagine that your practice could be next? Click the link below and learn how to apply for the next cohort of the Remarkable CEO Program. We look forward to working closely with you in creating the business that supports your remarkable life, not competes with it.

I loved what you said there. I want to slow it down. Okay. One of the things that I see with this, Dr. Steven, is we move too fast either in the hiring process. You know, the wisdom of this is hire slow and fire fast. Hire slow doesn't necessarily always mean just take longer. It means be more specific and take more time at doing and asking the right questions and getting into the things that really matter the most. For example, what you just said there, these are the 5 objectives or these are going to be the KPIs that you're going to own. I want to make sure you get it. So, can you explain to me what that means? And taking the time to go through each one of those things. Just think about that, the discipline that it would require to do that and how quickly your eyes would be open to say, they don't get it, right? Very quickly. And you realize you are not qualified. I'm not saying I can't train you. I'm just saying you are not technically qualified with the even getting it yet. You might be the right person, share our core values, totally bought into the vision story, have great job experience. I called your references and they're like, this cat said, A-player, you should get him on your team. I just don't know if you get this role. I get you have talent, I get you're amazing, but I don't know if you get this role idea. Like my son, shortstop catcher. It's the whole thing. Talent, but do you really get it? And do you want that? That's for the getting part. Asking the question, "Can you explain it to me?" Just if you walked away from this, listening to this podcast with that one takeaway, you've already won. You're already going to have a much better hiring experience. The second question, which Dr. Steven said, "Do you want it?" And then don't say anything after that. It's like when you're doing a financial, it's like, "Which option works better for you?" "Do you want it?" Now that they've said it, because remember it's coming, words coming out of their mouth. Now that they've said it, Do you want it? Hear what they have to say. Because the next things that they say are going to be some questions, some thoughts, and that's going to give you a tremendous amount of insight. And that's where this direction of this needs to go. And then the capacity to do it, Dr. Steven, this one I find a lot with chiropractors has to do with their office hours, right? A lot of it is like, do you know what it feels like to, we pre-shift huddle at 6:45. Which means you need to be here at 6:30, 6:15 if you're a certain role, some other 6:20, others can maybe be 6:25, whatever. Like you have your people, what time that each role needs to arrive. But like we huddle at 6:45. If somebody says, yeah, I can do it. I'm like, no, no, no, I don't mean once, every, like this many times per week, every week ongoing. And then 6:30 at night, which by the way in the winter means it's dark. 4:30. Yeah. It means you're showing up in the dark and you're leaving in the dark. Yeah. So, I just want to make sure you know what that means in the capacity to do it. Oh, we stand at the desk. Oh, so, I'm on my feet all day. Yeah. Yeah. So, you're going to be standing all day. Can we ever sit down? During lunch.

I mean, if it's a sit-down lunch.

You know, like capacity to do it is the time, the energy, and the focus. So, really leaning in there. And it's why, you know, we talk about the difference between being amateur level and going pro. You know, I love when Dr. Bobby talked about that at the last Immersions, the business Immersions. A lot of people had that takeaway. It's like, you know what, I'm done playing amateur. We're going to go pro. And it wasn't just applying to their marketing, even though he was speaking about marketing. It's like, no, in every area of my business, you know what, we're going to go pro. We got to go pro. We've been playing. Trying to play a professional level with amateur levels of performance and systems and people. And we've got to take it up. And that's why I love what we're doing in TRP, bringing the business side of the coin to the forefront. Last thing I'll say in this, Dr. Steven, this happens a lot. You and I see this a lot where there's a chiropractor who went into practice, started their own practice, and then after a few years realized they really wanted to be a chiropractor. They just didn't want to be a business owner. That might be landing on somebody who's hearing me right now. 'Cause maybe that was you. You're like, yeah, I love chiropractic, being a chiropractor. I just didn't want the brain damage that comes with being the business owner as well. And by the way, there's nothing wrong with that, actually. Thank God, you know. So, you don't have to do that. And there's another path forward for you to have a world-class, amazing career, make a huge impact, a great income, but don't have to be the business owner. And Dr. Steven, that's why It's so important to get the W piece right because if you don't want it, it's like being in somebody who's a business owner that doesn't want to be. It's lots of casualties along the way, starting with you and the people closest to you. There's no, it's not worth it. So if you're not in the position and you don't want it, it's just not going to work. That's what we've got to work on as, as your CEO listening to this. Give this to your COO if they're working on the, doing some of the hiring and they're accountable for hiring and doing some of this interview. Have them listen to this episode and says, you know what? We need to do a better job with the W, with making sure that people really want it. We're actually digging into the G, the W, and the C, because we haven't done a good enough job of really vetting people thoroughly, interviewing them and them interviewing us to make sure that we are a match, that we are a good fit so that Dr. Stephen, We can do the next 3 to 5 years or more together because losing people, hiring people is the most costly thing for a business. And unfortunately, in the chiropractic space, happens far too often.

So, Dr. Pete, as I'm listening to you, I realize a couple of things like, oh my gosh, when I talk to— I talked to 50 chiropractors this week, just coaching clients and coaching calls, right? So, this manifests all over their practices in many different flavors, different ways. But if you chase the problem behind the problem, behind the problem, you just go all the way upstream. You know, if you look at our— it's almost always a team issue. It's almost always a who issue, right? So when you look at the 4 rights, the right person in the right seat doing the right work the right way, this is the second right. Okay. So just guys, make sure you're hearing us right here in this, because think of the pain associated with it. Underperformance. Oh, that's bad for you. And it's bad for them, right? It sucks all around. Them quitting or you having to fire them because you're like, oh man, it's just, it's just been quarter after quarter of underperformance. Like, oh, that's wicked painful. Right? So especially if you heard what I said, this is the second right. The first right is you get the right people, right? Right people in the right seat doing the right work the right way. Four rights. The right people, they're A-players that share your core values and buy into your vision story. Check. The next right get them in the right seat, in the right role so they can do the right work the right way. Listen to this. If you're hearing GWC, GWC is the bridge between the first right and the second right. It's like, get them into the right seat. Do you get the role? Do you want the role? And do you have the capacity to do the role right? So if you're not hearing what we're saying here, guys, this is a nuanced— and this is the hard part, right? So the people part is the hard part of business. So these are CEO skill sets.

right?

Because you, you've gone from when you raised your hand to become a CEO, you went from being the machine to being the person that builds the machine. This is building the machine. You have to understand, it's like, oh, each role calls for a specific genius. Is that this person's genius? Right? So get the right person, check, in the right seat, GWC. Do they get it? Do they want it? And they have the capacity to do it, right? So Dr. Pete, this is like a, don't just let 'em quit. Don't let 'em fire. Don't stay languishing in this pain, right? So, make sure that they GWC for that specific role. That's the takeaway on this, right? So, and you're not alone. Like I said, this shows up all over. We see it with all the chiropractors. By the way, if you have another chiropractor that you're friends with, that you communicate with, maybe somebody that's one of your accountability partners or somebody that you spend time with, you guys are probably commiserating around your people issues. That's probably what dominates most of your conversations.

Am I right?

I spend a lot of time with chiropractors and I listen because I'm in the business of helping more people help more people. So, I'm listening and being like, okay, all they're ever talking about is their people, their team, right? So, share this episode. Send them this episode. Hey, you know what? Franson said, share with somebody who you know is struggling with their team. I thought of you. I'm texting you a link to this episode. Can you guys do that for us? Like, that's the greatest way to say thank you.

right?

So share this with somebody who you know is also not just who might be somebody like you, like us, somebody who is wrestling with this question right now. Do they get it? Do they want it? And do they have the capacity to do it well?

Please stick around for more business insights from this week's bonus interview with our remarkable success partner dedicated to helping you more successfully help More people enjoy.

Hello, Remarkable CEOs. This is Dr. Coach Eric Janowitz here with Dr. Travis. He's one of our remarkable success partners with TRP, and we love our remarkable success partners because they help our clients help more people. And that's what we're here in the business to do. So welcome to the podcast, Dr. Travis. Great to have you here.

Thanks, Dr. Eric. I appreciate you having me.

Yeah.

So Dr. Travis is a chiropractor and he's also the founder of Chiro Ads Academy. And so he's here to talk about how chiropractors running ads can drive more new patients into their business. So Dr. Travis, please tell our listeners a little about yourself. All right.

So I actually started my practice in Boulder, Colorado in 2020 during the middle of COVID And so because of that, we came up against a lot of challenges on driving new business through the door. There wasn't a lot of external marketing opportunities. One of the things that we knew we needed to get into was digital marketing. And that's because we not only wanted to survive, but we wanted to thrive. We wanted to grow a healthy practice. And fortunately, we were able to get involved with an agency pretty quickly. And, uh, we saw some traction, uh, pretty quickly and we saw some new patients come through the door. And then that quickly declined after month 1 into month 2, month 3. And so we got in onto what we now referred to as the agency hamster wheel. So if we jump from one agency to the other, and long story short, we ended up working with 4 different agencies and 2 different consultants over the course of about, you know, a year to 18 months, something like that. And we saw a little bit of success with each of them, but it always quickly declined due to some unknown reason. And so we knew that it could work, and we knew that there were a lot of practices out there that were leveraging it and making it work. And so what we finally did was took it upon ourselves to go outside the industry and learn from a bunch of prolific and iconic marketers now in the entrepreneurial space. And we were able to create a really great in-house ad system. And fortunately, that in-house ad system pulled me out of a pretty deep hole in the practice because we weren't able to drive a lot of new business. And actually, you, you were in my corner during that time. You were my coach, so you know how much we were struggling. And fortunately, we were able to like I said, turn on the new patient acquisition system. And we grew by $50,000 a month in, uh, as little as 6 months. And so this was something that allowed me to build a successful practice that I was hoping to build whenever I embarked on this journey. And I started talking about it a little bit on my podcast, which is essentially my digital diary, um, on how challenging it was starting an entrepreneurship, starting a, a practice in Boulder, Colorado during the middle of COVID And several people reached out and they wanted to know how we actually built this in-house ad system and how we were able to control our new patient volume. And so we started a little beta test, uh, which was we took on 5 practices, myself and my co-founder now, who was then my office manager, who's, uh, also, uh, the CTO of the, the program. Um, really tech savvy. And we were able to implement this program in 5 different practices all across the United States. And they had better results in their markets than we actually were seeing here in Boulder. And so we knew we had something special. And that was over 3 years ago almost by this point. And now we have, uh, officially coined it the Cairo Ads Academy, and we have nearly 400 members as of yesterday. So yeah, the program has grown really quickly because I, I believe we found a void and filled it. And you know, it was all based on the testing in the iterations and the challenges that we had inside of my practice, but also being able to identify specific problems with digital marketing and then create viable solutions to those problems. And so we were able to actually get better in our digital marketing over time, which was something that we had never seen happen before with the agencies. It had always started great and then gotten worse over time. So it was completely inverse. and that allowed me to first off grow my practice, but secondarily now have this other business, uh, that has really been able to serve the profession at a high level.

Great, man. I didn't know some of that backstory that, um, that's where that came from and it was from your podcast. Yeah. For those of you that don't know Dr. Travis, he also has his own podcast, which is awesome. I recommend you check it out. It's called Making Moves. Is that correct?

It was, it's now called The Arena.

Oh, okay. It's updated.

Yeah.

So The Arena, check that out. Updated.

Yep.

Is it on anywhere we can find podcasts?

Yeah, it's on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. It's The Arena with Dr. Travis. So you've actually been on that podcast. You've been featured. Maybe we'll leave that episode in the show notes.

Yeah, that, that's great. Yeah. So check it out, guys. It's great, great content, great high-level chiropractic talk. So that's awesome. And so it's great. You got 400 people now you're serving, which is amazing. And it's, it's, it's funny. I, I've, I've worked with a lot of docs that started right around COVID. And it's like the same story as like, yeah, not the best time to start, right? Everything is shut down, especially in Colorado. I'm in Michigan, so we had the same kind of shutdown as you guys had to deal with. Everything was limited and it's like, okay, I got to start this new business. I need new patients and I literally can't go out in the community. I can't do talks. I can't do anything. But I think you'd probably agree now it might have been the best thing that ever happened, right? Because it, it made you get innovative and develop this new thing that has now become not just a great driver of new patients to your personal practice, but helping a lot of chiropractors as well.

Yeah, 100%. It was a pivotal moment in my life. And at the time when I'm sweating through my bedsheets wondering how I'm going to pay overhead and pay salaries and, you know, just make it, I got a new wife and we moved all the way across the country to start this practice. There's a lot of pressure. And with that pressure came a lot of responsibility. And, you know, fortunately, we were able to get innovative and resourceful. And I think that was one of our greatest strengths was resourcefulness. And we were able to now put together not only a system that we still use inside of our business today, inside of our practice, you know, which I'm, I'm fortunate to have, but, uh, we've also been able to install into hundreds of practices and they're able to reap those benefits as well. So you're right, you know, those biggest challenges, uh, eventually turned into our greatest triumph for sure.

Always, man. That's great. You know, in TRP, we're always teaching our, our docs that every business exists to solve a problem. Right? Every business. And that's how the more, the bigger problems you solve, the more successful the business is typically. And so specifically for you guys, not just what kind of problems do you solve? Cause there's a lot of digital marketing agencies, but what specifically makes you guys kind of unique that helps you solve a very specific type of problem for chiropractors?

Yeah, I would say that, you know, every, every person listening to this podcast is somewhere on the timeline of the chiropractic life cycle as you guys communicate it, which is they're either about to launch a practice, they're building a practice, they're scaling a practice, or they're looking to exit a practice. And so at every single one of those seasons or phases of the chiropractic life cycle, you have new challenges that arise. And, you know, what we set out to do was to solve one of the biggest challenges to growing a business. Period, which is new business development and being able to generate new patients on demand. And so what we did is we essentially went under the hood and used our own diagnostic abilities to be able to identify exactly where the problems were in each of these different experiences that we had with agencies. And so when we were able to identify those problems and then solve those problems, which is typically high lead cost and poor quantity of leads, not getting the leads through the door. So having a low show rate, poor quality of leads, or tire kickers as people like to call them, or you're flying blind with little to no data. You don't know which data to track. You don't have that data being communicated to you, so you can't make CEO-level data-informed decisions. And all of those things lead to a poor lagging indicator, as you like to say, uh, which would be poor outcomes. Okay? And so what we figured out is how to solve all 4 of those problems. With our proprietary system. And then when we install that into these practices, which is first, the solution is getting the lead cost down. So generating more trust. We're in a trust economy right now. It's really hard to gain trust with people in the way that, um, our advertising or our creative framework was set up with all of these other experiences. It was generic and it was unspecific. And so we created a proprietary triad called the Triad of Trust, which is where we are relevant, omnipresent, and unique. So through the relevance, uh, we like to target the largest motivating factor and meet people where they're at and speak to the experience that they're currently having right now through condition-specific funnels. And then with the uniqueness, we wanna position ourself as something different, a new opportunity, and really shine light on our point of difference and say what only you can say. And then with the relevance, we want to leverage the exposure effect. Everybody knows that you have to hear or see something 7 times before you're actually compelled to act. And so we, we like to leverage that through frequency of showing up on people's timelines so that you actually build familiarity with people and that actually builds trust over time. And then we tip the scale with social proof. So that's leveraging credibility and through, through character interchange, which means that people can actually see people inside your office getting the results that you're promising in your advertisements. So you're not being offer-focused, you're being condition-specific, and then you're building trust through all of these pieces of the anatomy of a conversion-based ad. And then you're, you're tipping the scale with that social proof and a compelling call to action. So eventually people come in trust matured. So you're gonna get higher lead quantity at a lower cost. They're gonna come in trust matured. They're gonna know who you are. They're gonna want your services that you provide. Which is typically care plan-based practices. And then we also teach people how to analyze data. So we, we teach them what data to analyze, how to track the ad-based data, which is gonna be on the Ads Manager to see actually their, their digital marketing specific metrics. And then we give them KPIs on where they should be, and then we give them all their systems metrics, right? Their lead to booking percentage, their booking to show rate, their show rate, to day 2s, their day 2 to conversion rate. And then we reverse engineer it through a client journey. And so we, we try to essentially identify where the constraints are throughout that process and then solve that constraint and then eventually lead to better outcomes over time. And so when we were able to solve those 4 basic problems inside of our system, and then we can take that system and replicate it for all of these other doctors, not only does it enhance their business acumen because they're starting to see marketing as an investment that can generate a really great, sustainable, and consistent return on investment instead of having unpredictability and inconsistency with low quality control, then that's where we were able to start solving big problems for a lot of people. And I think that's why we grew so quickly.

I love that. You said so many good things there. I hope the listeners didn't miss. Uh, first thing I wouldn't unpack was you talked about trust. Right. And, and it's like the currency nowadays isn't money. Currency now in business is trust. Exactly. Because there's so many options out there. People don't know what to pick. So if they trust something, they're much more likely to, to engage in business with that company. And so I love that you guys have a whole system to, you know, over time gain that trust, that exposure. It's where they see you and now they, there's a brand that they know and they, they feel that they can trust. It's why companies like Nike and Coca-Cola, they still spend so much in advertising because they want that top of mind awareness always being there. So you have that trust factor. Factor. And, and so, yeah, and that's great that you guys do that. The second thing I love was the data. Uh, that's my love language is, is speaking metrics and, and data. I know you, you know that about me. It's like, man, just data takes the emotion out of it. And I love that you guys break that down because really, I mean, when it comes to that advertising and marketing, there's almost no more important data that we can have than that because marketing can get expensive real quick if you don't know your, your data. It can also be the best investment you ever make. If you have the data. And so I love that you're talking, you know, cost per lead and cost per new patient, you know, CAC, cost to acquire customer, like all these really important numbers that you guys are measuring and stuff we're teaching our TRP clients how to understand and how to get. So I love that you guys already do that. That's going to be super, super valuable to your clients to be able to build that, you know, that data fluency around marketing. Because like I said, I mean, we want to be spending— we teach in TRP, you want to spend 8 to 12% of your goal revenue on marketing. Right? So if your goal this year is hit $1 million, you need to spend $80,000 to $120,000 on marketing. And what we find is that most chiropractors spend maybe 2% to 3%, and that's a huge missed opportunity. But if we're gonna invest 6 figures in marketing, we gotta make sure we're gonna get a good ROI for that. And that leads me into my next question for you is we always talk about how as CEOs and business owners, we want to get a good return on investment for anything that we do. So do you guys have, do you track what you expect or what you want to see as far as return on investment for clients that work with you guys?

We do, yeah.

And our average ROAS— and this is again across, you know, 375 different markets in the United States, and there's always going to be outliers, and we're not removing those outliers because we want to give an average, we want to give a realistic expectation, because we always want to under-promise and over-deliver. As opposed to all of our prior experiences, it was the inverse. It was the over-promise and the under-deliver, and that led to disappointment on our on our end, and I know you're big on expectations and agreements, so we like to be clear with this, that we have an average of 6x return on ad spend. And a lot of people are, they're dumbfounded by that because I think in, in their situation right now, they're potentially breaking even, you know, on good months they're breaking even. Maybe they have a great 2x ROAS, something like that. But whenever you can take the, uh, retainer fee out of the, out of the equation, and, uh, you know what data to track that so that you can start to confidently increase your ad spend and you can actually start to scale that spend past that 2 to 3% of gross revenue or your gross revenue goal, then you can start to see a higher return, especially whenever you're solving all of these constraints, uh, like I outlined in our system. And, you know, a 6x ROAS for a lot of practices. I mean, that's, that could be practice changing. You know, and then once you hit that, uh, our average metric, which is typically between month 1 and month 2, then we can start to scale the ad spend. And we know that there's not a direct proportion of scaling ad spend versus the return that you get. It's not like you get a 6x return on ad spend and you can double your ad spend and still get a 6x. Sometimes that ROAS goes down a little bit, uh, the more that you spend. It's just how scaling works. But you know, if you're putting in $1,000, and you're getting out $4,500, uh, at a really high ad spend, maybe you're, you know, a couple million dollar a year practice, it's still an incredible investment long-term, especially when you know how to look at the data, analyze the data, make data-informed decisions so that you're constantly improving, or at least you're maintaining consistency and predictability because then you can make better decisions.

Always. Yeah. And so you, you threw out some good terms there. So ROAS, for our listeners who don't know, that's return on ad spend. And I think, I think you did say it, but I wanted to be clear. Return on ad spend is simply for every dollar I put in, how many dollars do I get back in revenue? Right. And so he's talking about 6 to 1. So that means for every dollar you put in, you're gonna get $6 back in revenue. Like how many, how many dollars can you get if you're getting that kind of return? Right. So people ask me like, you know, how much should I spend on marketing? I say, well, what's your, first of all, what's your ROAS? What's your return on the investment? And second, how many new patients do you need? Like, you should spend as much on marketing as you can until all your new patient slots are filled up, as long as you're getting a positive return on investment. And once all your new patient slots are filled, now it's like, okay, how can I maybe get a, you know, better return? How can I go from a 5-to-1 to a 7-to-1 or 8-to-1, right? But it's like, even if I'm getting a 3-to-1, guess what? I'm getting a return and I'm getting more new patients into those new patient time slots. Because we know that every new patient time slot that's empty on your weekly calendar, That's lost revenue. That's lost opportunity cost. That's somebody that could have been a new patient that could have turned into money, but because you didn't have enough marketing, it was a dead spot in the schedule. And so we want to really focus on that and then we can optimize after that. So yeah, so great talking numbers with you, Travis, as always.

Yeah, for sure, man.

Great. So last question I have for you, I'm sure some listeners are intrigued by this and want to reach out and see how they can, uh, learn more about your company and maybe possibly work with you. Uh, what's the best way for our listeners to get in contact with you?

Uh, it's a great question. They can actually go to makingmoves.com. So it's M-A-K-I-N-G-M-U-V-E-S. So Making Moves is the parent company. Cairo Ads Academy is the product. Uh, makingmoves.com/trp.

Perfect. That'd be great. So guys, if you're interested in talking to Dr. Travis and learning more about his company, please reach out to them. Go to that URL specifically for TRP Docs, and they can, uh, I'm sure do an assessment of the existing, uh, marketing that, that they're doing and then help give suggestions on how you guys can make it better.

Yeah. And just to be extremely clear, this is a coaching program, so it's catch and release. So we teach you how to install this system in-house so that you have the control. And then essentially after that, there's no retainer fee, there's no program costs. It's just you putting marketing into your ad spend with the skills that you have developed over that 6 months.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Chaps, for being here with us. Thanks for taking the time.

Absolutely, Eric. Thanks for having me.

Absolutely. So Remarkable CEOs, remember, tune in each week to the Remarkable CEO Podcast. I hope everybody has a blessed day and we'll catch you guys next week.

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Remarkable CEO Podcast. Remember, what the world needs now is chiropractic, and what chiropractic needs now is more successful chiropractors. If you like this podcast, please subscribe, share with a friend, and leave us a review. And if you'd like to connect with us personally, direct message us on Facebook, LinkedIn, or Instagram. Now go and be remarkable.