355 - How to Train a Great Chiropractor Today

75% of chiropractors are hardwired to be caregivers, and they don't have the risk tolerance profile to start a business and own a business and run a business. So I'm going to say this because I want to have this conversation with you. I, I think based on this theory and my experience now coaching thousands of chiropractors and testing 10,000, I think 75% of chiropractors should never own their own business, should never own their own practice. They should run their practice inside of a business owner's business, right? So they should run and develop their business inside of there. Hello and welcome to the Remarkable CEO Podcast, a show dedicated to chiropractors who want to transform their job into a business so that they can have a remarkable practice as part of a remarkable life. Not instead of one. With your hosts, Dr. Pete Camiolo and Dr. Stephen Franson. What's up, Remarkables? Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable CEO Podcast. I'm Dr. Stephen Franson, and I'm blessed to have a special guest here today. A very good, very longtime friend of mine, one of my early mentors, Dr. Peter Kevorkian, is in the hot seat today. Dr. Pete, what's up, brother?

Oh, I don't know. I'm honored that you refer to me as a mentor. I think that's a mutual feeling that my friend, it's exciting to be here. I'm honored.

Yeah. I've known Dr. Peter as long as I've been a chiropractor. So we're both Massachusetts guys. So we're, we're Massholes as we call ourselves. It's been, what, about 30 years almost, I think. So, Dr. Pete, I'm going to give you an opportunity to, to tell your own story. But, you know, I just want to on behalf of my wife and I, all the chiropractors that were blessed to come and work in our clinic, and all the other fellow chiropractors from around Massachusetts, around New England, and now around the country, and I would assume probably around the world. You've just done so much for chiropractic and for chiropractors. I just appreciate you just being just such a bright light in our profession. I wore my serve hat today in honor of you because I've known you a long time and I've always only known you to be a servant leader. So love you, bro, and I'm excited to have this conversation tonight.

I'm humbled, Steve. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Appreciate it. So tell us a little bit about your story. You know, we love the husband and wife story. You ran a tremendous practice, a tremendous business in Massachusetts, and now you find yourself on the other side of the country as president of LifeWest, one of our favorite vitalistic chiropractic schools. So why don't you put the puzzle together for us?

So I started practice in 1982, graduated Palmer College, started as an associate in Arlington, Massachusetts. I'm from New England, from Boston my whole life. A couple years later, I met Dr. Patty Giuliano, a graduate from Life University, or at that time Life College. I went to Palmer, and we started a family practice together in Westwood, Mass., and grew that practice from seeing no people per day to seeing hundreds of people per day for the better part of 42 years. Practiced in our home, it was a home-based practice. During our time in practice, we hosted the Mass Alliance for Chiropractic Philosophy. We had chiropractors come, actually we had Dr. Frantz in there, I think a couple times you come down at our group. And it was a support group for chiropractors in Massachusetts, New England area, attract anywhere from 30 to 80 people every month at our home, home office practice. And after the speaker, the guest speaker, we'd come in the house and break bread and, and party and Did it consistently for the better part of those— since 1991, I think, is the origins of, uh, of— no, the Master Alliance started in the 1980s, 1991 till 2023, it was in my home practice. So it's a long, long time doing that. Uh, during that time I've served on lots of boards for national organizations, local organizations, on the Mass Chiropractic Society as well. Um, I have been on the board of the ICPA, International Chiropractic Pediatric Association, taught for them for the better part of 30 years. I was chairman of the board at Sherman College, and in 2024 I shifted gears in my life and left practice to be vice president at LifeWest. And then last year, July, the board appointed me as president of the college. It's been a wild ride, and life gives you opportunities. And, you know, there was absolutely nothing in Massachusetts I didn't love.

I love my practice.

I love my staff, my team, my patients. I love my support group. I was successful. And, you know, most guys in my age are looking for an exit strategy to go lie on a beach. I decided to start a new career. It's super exciting to be out here. Every day is a new challenge. And, uh, but the influence that I know that I'll make on future generations, and I believe in terms of the, our profession and our education, uh, I think I, I'm uniquely suited to make an impact in that realm.

100%, brother. 100%.

You know, I heard a person once tell me that it was in reference to a man, but it could be a woman as well, that in their early years, a man is trying to make a mark, and in their later years, they want to leave a mark. And I suppose that's an interesting way to look at things. I want to leave a mark.

Yeah.

But anyway, so I'm going to borrow that. I'm going to steal that from you immediately so I can You know, I can relate completely to your description. You know, I had a season, a phenomenal season. There was nothing I didn't love about being in practice and loved taking care of people. As you know, you and I were, you know, we were on both sides of a state. You know, we had— we both had 1,000-week practices. So we'd go and hang out with each other so we could observe and see what each other was up to. It's like, who else are you going to go look at? And it was just an honor always when you and Patty would come out. And there was no reason to leave, you know, other than I was, you know, called to the next chapter, right? And that's exactly what you're up to. And I like to say that I have had the blessing of twice in my life to know I'm doing exactly what God hardwired me to do. Like when I was in the adjustatorium, being a chiropractor, doing the work, the clinical chiropractor, I was doing exactly what I was hardwired to do. And now having the privilege of being a coach and influencing all the chiropractors, taking care of all these people. I know I'm doing exactly what he designed me to do. And I see you. I smiled when I heard that you were the new president, the next president. I'm like, oh man, what a blessing. This is exactly what he should be doing and taking all that wisdom and all that love because you're, you're equal parts both and just elevating that school and elevating chiropractic. Those, those students are really blessed, brother.

Yeah, it's an honor to be here.

So let's talk about what's interesting, what's exciting. So you get to, you know, you get your finger on the pulse of chiropractic education right now. You know, I'm on the other side of it. I'm finger on the pulse of the practicing chiropractor, right? So a lot of the college graduates, you know, and my clients are hiring a lot of the college graduates, right? So we're kind of on both sides of this equation, if you will. I'd love to hear what are you excited about? What are you seeing? What's— you get your finger on the pulse of What's going on in chiropractic education right now? Tell us what's going on.

Oh, God, there are a lot of places we can go. First, the first thing that pops in my head as you're talking to me, Steve, we have a responsibility as successful chiropractors to be giving back to our profession. And I guess the first way we give back is perpetuation of our profession. Right now, if every chiropractor in practice refereed one person in a year, every year, to a chiropractic college, our colleges couldn't, couldn't handle it. We need students to be referred to chiropractic colleges. Enrollment at all of our schools— we are— enrollment in chiropractic colleges was over 12,000 just a few years ago, and it has now declined. And the estimate is this year it's going to be 8,500. That is a significant drop. That's across all schools.

Yes.

Yeah. Every school is feeling it. Yeah, lots of reasons for it. So I'm encouraging everybody that's listening to this call, uh, it, it doesn't hurt to ask anybody in your practice, everything can be in a chiropractor. Ernie Landy, Ernie Landy, uh, took over Reggie's practice in New York, and, uh, he would take one day a month and ask every patient. They're on the table, he says, 82-year-old woman, he's checking him, he's checking his spine, says, everything could be in a chiropractor. I said, no, Dr. Ernie, I couldn't do that. But he just made a commitment to himself Ernie had referred in his time in practice, I want to say, 600 people to chiropractic college. And it does all— it just asks questions and it costs us nothing. And somebody was like, gee, I never really thought about it. And just send them to a chiropractic college. Obviously, I want you to send them to LifeWest. I think that we have one of the finest programs out here, which we can talk about in a minute. The other thing, there are some significant challenges facing all of our colleges over the next few years relative to financing. Student loan dollars going to chiropractic colleges is going to be going to all colleges, going to be going down. Uh, the politics and, and Department of Education issues, I don't need to go through the details of that. If every chiropractor in practice gave $1,000 a year to a chiropractic college, any college, obviously the schools you most aligned to, give $1,000 a year to a chiropractic college, we could totally fund our profession.

That's right.

We could eliminate tuition.

Yeah.

Every college could be totally funded.

Yeah.

And every college is going through a financial challenge right now.

All right. I know who we're talking to right now. So listen up, CEOs. I'm talking to you guys right now. You guys are the business owners. So, Dr. Peter, you got the ear of the movers and the shakers, right? So I think the top 20% of chiropractors listen to this podcast. So, guys, it's not $1,000 a year. It's $100 a month. Every one of you guys can do that. Okay. So just put it on an auto debit and just don't even think about it. It's $100 a month. So many of you, that's one adjustment a month. So $100 a month, do that on behalf of Vitalistic Chiropractic, right? So put your money where your mouth is, guys, right? This is our future. Our future. We need to be investing in the future of chiropractic, and the best way to do it is to make sure that our Vitalistic colleges are well-funded and stuffed to the gills with chiropractors or chiropractic students that you've sent their way.

I always felt, and I don't know where I got this mindset, Steve, I felt as though giving back to your profession was part of your rent.

That's right.

I, I have been supporting— I went to Palmer College. I still give money to Palmer College, but I've also given money to Life University, to Sherman College, to Life West, Barcelona College, Australia College, uh, McTimoney College. Those are schools that share my ideology. I want to thrive, and I still do it today. That, that is part of my rent. And so I'm not expecting everybody to give to that degree, but we need, we need to give to our profession. I would love, love, love, love, love to have you guys support LifeWest. It is an extraordinary institution. We are staying grounded in technique. One of the super things that I'm excited about and the unique factor of it, so many of the schools have drifted away from technical specificity in adjusting subluxation. And one of the things I believe is success, that builds success, is certainty and competency in what you do. If all you're doing is spinal manipulative therapy, trying to treat aches and pains, you have a very different focus of practice and reverence of what we do as chiropractors than giving a specific adjustment. So where many of the colleges have tried to create a package of techniques, you know, there's a, a Cleveland package, a Palmer package, a Parker package, a Sherman package. I, I, I told my team, I said, I want to eliminate the package. I said, I want students to learn Gonstead technique. The way Clarence developed the work. I want people to learn SOT the way that the major developed the work. I want them to learn Activator the way Arlen Furr developed the work. And so students will be able to opt into whatever techniques they want to learn rather than a technique department trying to homogenize it.

That's right.

Learn the system the way that it was taught. Understand that spinal model. Develop your proficiencies in that. Be measured in that. Get your competency in that. And then before you leave, you have a conversation. How do you make it yours? How do you create the Franz technique or the Kevorkian technique. And so, so that it, you know, and you may wanna do exactly what Clarence did.

Yeah.

But if you're not, if you're gonna steer away from that, how do you maintain a clarity and focus and certainty and being able to deliver the adjustment? That's right.

I love you went there. So certainty, like we teach in the Remarkable Practice that there's 4 pillars to certainty, right? So think of 'em as sources, but they're really pillars, like legs under a table, right?

Right.

So the first is clinical skills, clinical certainty. Second is philosophical certainty. The third is communications certainty, and the fourth is business acumen. So when you think about sources of certainty, you know, in chiropractic, when you say philosophical certainty, most people think that those two are the same thing, right? It's like, because philosophical certainty is a superpower in chiropractic, as long as you're philosophical, if that's your source of certainty, you're most likely going to have a successful practice. Put it in asterisks, right? So then clinical certainty is what you're describing right now, which is those people that derive their certainty from the confidence that comes from, listen, I'm technically sound. I, I know how to find subluxation, correct subluxation. I know how to drive better health experiences and better health outcomes. It's like that's the person that, you know, that if something was going on with your family's health, you put them on an airplane and send them to this person. That's the person that reeks of clinical certainty. Then this communication certainty, which is the ability to tell the story, you can compel others to take action, right? To communicate really well, change belief systems, shape behaviors. And then there's finally business acumen, which is you love to make businesses appear out of vapor, right? So to put systems together, hire people, right? Make it rain, know how to drive revenue and profit, right? And, and each one of those is, is your own superpower. And what we love to teach is that one of those will be your strength, but then you've got to recognize it. Although you don't have to be awesome at everything, you got to build a team that's awesome at everything. You're going to be limited by your weakest leg. So when you look across that philosophical, clinical communications, or business acumen, you got to identify, it's like, where's my weakest leg? And make sure that you're working on yourself and hiring and building a team around there. So I'm excited that, you know, LifeWest is focused on this because we've got to turn out more clinically sound, philosophically sound chiropractors. And, you know, give them to us and let them teach them how to communicate and run, you know, business acumen.

Well, so Steve, I love the 4 pillars. You spoke about that when you came out and did our seminar to the students. It was a huge part when I came to your seminar recently in Las Vegas, was it?

Phoenix, yeah.

In Phoenix, in Phoenix, that's right. So I love it. And I have to smile as you talk about it because even though I'm not part of a formal part of your family, we totally resonate in the same field.

We are brothers from another mother, man.

One of the things that we're doing every week in our program from first quarter till they graduate, there's a class that's called Clinically Inspired Learning. And the purpose of that class is to keep a clinical lens on what we do. Uh, so when a per— when a student is in learning cell physiology, how does cell physiology apply to practice? So it's to put a clinical lens on it. And that's where we're taking our philosophy, how we view the human body, and that vitalistic ideology we have and making it real within every class.

Yes.

So when a student is taking some diagnosis class, how is that relevant in clinical practice with a chiropractic lens? And because very often we tend to attribute diagnosis to medical protocol and case management on a medical side, or where we refer somebody, but it can be putting a chiropractic lens in terms of everything we do. So philosophy needs to live in more than just philosophy class.

That's right.

It literally needs to be a culture that's married throughout the institution. That's what our clinical program, Clinically Inspired Learning program is about.

That's exactly.

And tied intimately to that is communication. Because it's one thing to have this philosophical idea, but if you don't know the language of being able to carry over your philosophy and your clinical prowess into communicating effectively to the person and awakening inside of your patient that perspective. Because not as much what we tell people, but it's what we wake up inside of them. You know, what they become aware of by the questions we ask, the words that we utilize. So it's more than just learning a lecture and learning how to give a lay lecture to somebody, but how do you engage the person in clarity of communication so that you can get your perspective inside of them so they can see the benefit of chiropractic care, not just to get over a symptom or pain, but to optimize the health and well-being of their spine for a lifetime.

Hey Doc, Stephen Franson here. If you're like me, you know that we're in the business of saving lives, and when business is good, Everybody wins. That's the good news. But here's the bad news. Most chiropractors don't own a business at all. They own a job. It's a job they love, but it's a job. And far too often it feels like that job owns them. Is this true for you? Do you own a business or a job? Have you built and do you run your practice on brute force? Does it rely fully on your time your effort, a pound of your flesh? Are you responsible for all growth, for all new patient generation? How about new patient conversions? Is it all up to you? How about patient care and delivery? Are you a sole practitioner, an owner-operator who owns the practice but is also the only one that is head down and bum up taking care of all the patients? Is revenue generation or collections all up to you? Let me ask you the most telling question. Doc, what would happen if you took 90 days off? What breaks? In my experience, most On Purpose chiropractors do not lay awake at night worrying about their practice. They worry about their business. Let's slay that dragon. The Remarkable CEO program has helped hundreds of chiropractors just like you turn the job that they love into the business that they've always wanted. Are you ready to run and build your practice on leverage instead of brute force? Do you want to create the scalability and durability that will allow you to make a bigger impact and a bigger income? What would it mean to grow your practice, increase your productivity and your profitability? Do you want to get your time freedom back? Are you ready to turn your pirate ship into a battleship? If this sounds like you, then the Remarkable CEO Program is for you. Just last year, 53 of our Remarkable clients received the 7 Figure Club Award. Meaning they hit the million-dollar mark for the first time or their next million-dollar level, be it $2 million, $3 million, $10 million, up to $36 million and growing. Now, Doc, is it crazy to imagine that your practice could be next? Click the link below and learn how to apply for the next cohort of the Remarkable CEO Program. We look forward to working closely with you in creating the business that supports your remarkable life, not competes with it.

Then the conversation we had before we came on, there is so much that we are trying to push inside the brains of these students in such a short period of time. I know one of the biggest complaints I have heard— I used to say it when I was in practice, students got no business skills. We got to teach business in school. And I practiced for 42 years. During that time, I had 42 student preceptors, students who are in school who would come and spend a few weeks in my practice. And I would try to give them all the business stuff, during that period of time. And part of it was realizing students, particularly in their senior year, do not have bandwidth to learn business skills.

Mm-hmm.

I said, so, so much of business has to be learned as they get into practice because that's when they have the bandwidth for it. But what we need to do in school is get 'em to think like a business person. And that needs to start in day one because we're having these students sign a piece of paper and they're getting thousands of dollars, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt. And if we don't have them thinking with a business prowess, with that mindset, that business skill is just a skill. It's like paperwork. Paperwork means nothing if it's not aligned to your values and what your outcomes want to be within practice.

That's right.

So, it's not just learning, oh, this is what you do for consultations, what you do for a report of findings, but it's owning this business sense so that as you're learning your communication skills and sharing your philosophy, you stay grounded in this business skill. And a key driver of that, and I applaud you for doing this, is becoming data-driven. And it used to astonish me in practice when I would talk to chiropractors and ask them what their stats are and they'd say, what are stats? I said, how many new people did you see last month?

I don't know.

How many visits did you see last week? I don't know.

What percentage of your practice has been under care for more than—

I don't know. And not to say that data is more important than the loving and serving and giving to your patient. There's nothing more important than that. But But being data-driven creates a degree of certainty and clarity, predictability, stability, an ability to grow that you just can't do doing it off of feelings. That's true. So I really applaud you for what you've created, Steve. And it is truly— we should change the name to TRP rather than Life West. No, no.

Yeah, I would love that. I would love to have the Remarkable University. So, Peter, I receive that. I receive the compliment. I appreciate that. And people are like, oh, you're the data guy, you're the numbers guy. I'm like, yeah, ask my office manager, Nina, who's my— she's my EA now, my executive assistant now. She's been with me for 25 years. I certainly was not the numbers guy when we were in practice initially. Like I was— I'm allergic to spreadsheets. Like that whole idea of like that, all that is like people look at me like, what are you talking about? Because all I talk about now is KPIs and data being data-driven. I'm like, no, I'm teaching from scar tissue. Like I had to learn how valuable that was because if you're trying to master something, you can't master what you don't measure, right? So when we talk about, you know, I love the, the biblical law of dominion that God's gonna bless you with abundance categorically where you demonstrate the capacity to manage well that with which he's entrusted you with already, right? So demonstrating the capacity to manage well is using the data to manage well what you've been entrusted with, right? So once I recognize that, like, those numbers are actually people. Those are the people I'm being trusted with. Those are the families that I'm being entrusted with. And if you don't have data, you're guessing, right? And those are people's lives, right? So the only thing I hate more than data and spreadsheets is not knowing my practice, right? So not knowing my business. So as soon as I realized that the metrics become the matrix and they actually tell you the story and your practice and business is trying to have a conversation with you, And the metrics are the language of business. So if you don't understand metrics, you don't understand your business, right? So that's where I just fell in love with it, and that's when everything took off, right? So, you know, when we look at, if you remember me talking about this at Life West, um, when I had the privilege of speaking, it's the what, all school assembly, right? So we were talking about the 3 hats that you get to wear as a chiropractor, right? So there's 3 hats available to you. Right. So you've got the first hat, which is your clinical hat, your chiropractor hat, right? So this is you getting your DC, and that's an identity. It's a knowledge base, it's a skill set, and that's what you're going to get in school. Now you're a doctor, but then you get into practice and you realize that that doctor hat's really useful when you're being the doctor, but it has nothing to do with running the practice. You have to get another hat, a second hat, which is being the operator, right? So this is your systems, processes, your procedures, right? So this is your attraction, conversion, retention, team building collections, right? That's being an operator. That's its own identity. It's its own knowledge base and its own skill sets, right? And if you're, if you survive long enough, you start to recognize like, oh, wait a minute, that has nothing to do with owning a business, right? So there's a third hat for you, which is being a business owner and somebody trying to grow a business, right? So this is a totally different identity. This is a totally different knowledge base and a totally different set of skills. Right. So this business owner, now you're talking about marketing, sales, delivery, people, and money. Right. And understanding how that must be data-driven. Right. That's the economic engine that exists to deliver the productivity in the form of revenue and profit for the owners, the investors, and for the team. Right. So Dr. Peter, those are 3 different hats. Right. So, and like you said, while you're in school, you gotta get that first hat. You gotta learn to be a DC. And then, you know, through your schooling to just start to get exposed to groups like the Remarkable Practice or other groups that are gonna teach you about your process and procedures, right? So what it means to run and operate a practice, which is its own skillset, which is where seminars and clubs become so important.

100%.

Like, I love technique clubs. I was a big Gondroid all through school. Thank God. Right? That gave me my clinical certainty, right? So, And then it was through the clubs like the Remarkable Practice Club where you start to learn the systems, processes, and procedures. And then if you do decide, you know what, the path forward for me is to be a business owner, then you gotta learn business acumen, which is a totally different identity and skillset. I'm gonna say something that's gonna be controversial, so I want you to field this if you could. You know, we own a staffing business, right? So we've got a, our, the Remarkable Practice has become its own sort of ecosystem of these little cottage businesses. And one of 'em, what we found was our, as our clients were succeeding and growing. One of the big bottlenecks was finding chiropractors to come and work for them. And then that turned into finding office managers and marketing people and CAs, etc. So we have a staffing business specialized in chiropractic, and we've tested and placed about 10,000 chiropractors. So what we have found, if you test, we do 3 types of tests: cognitive testing, affective testing, and cognitive testing. So cognitive is what do you know, like national boards, how much, how quickly can you learn? Cognitive with a G. Affective with an A, that's affective testing. What do you love? What type of work energizes you? The third type is my favorite, which is cognitive testing, right, with an N, C-O-N-A, cognitive testing. And that is how do you behave, right? So how do you take action? And this is my favorite one when it comes to team building because we hire people for aligned philosophies and personalities and technical skills experience, but we fire for behavior. So I want to know if I'm hiring you for a role, what type of behavior does this role call for? And do you have that cognitive profile that you'll predictably behave that way? Right? So sorry, that was a lot, a lot of setups to say this. In our experience, we've, we've created this continuum and there's 3 buckets. This, every chiropractor you and I know and love, everyone we'll ever meet will fit into one of these 3 buckets. And I won't even have to describe them to you. The first one is the caregiver.

Mm-hmm.

The second one is the business builder, and the third one is the entrepreneur, right? So those are the 3 buckets that all chiropractors fall into. And that caregiver, as you would expect, they love the doctoring.

Mm-hmm.

They want to do consultations, examinations, report of findings, recommendations for care. They love to do analysis. They love their technique. They love the adjusting. They love the doctoring, right? So, but they have no interest in being a business owner, right? That whole idea of like owning their business, they're like allergic to the risk that it takes to do the business ownership piece, right? So on the other end of the spectrum is the entrepreneur, where people like you and I, where no matter what we did in our life, we were going to be starting businesses. We were going to start organizations, right? That's just how God hardwired us. And by the grace of God, we found chiropractic. So we start chiropractic businesses, right? So we have to be in charge. We have to be the leader. We have to be the boss.

Right?

And we are hardwired to be entrepreneurs. So only 7% of humanity is hardwired to be entrepreneurs. Out of the 10,000 chiropractors we've tested, about 15% of those are hardwired to be entrepreneurs. I think chiropractic has a nature where it tends to attract more entrepreneurial because of the entrepreneurial opportunity, right? So about 15%. Dr. Peter, 75% of chiropractors are hardwired to be caregivers. And they don't have the risk tolerance profile to start a business and own a business and run a business. So I'm going to say this because I want to have this conversation with you. I think based on this theory and my experience now coaching thousands of chiropractors and testing 10,000, I think 75% of chiropractors should never own their own business, should never own their own practice. They should run their practice inside of a business owner's business, right? So they should run and develop their business inside of their So my theory around this is that we've got to do a better job of developing that in the schools, not pigeonholing people, but giving them an opportunity to become self-aware, to express what their vision of success is for them, really know how they're hardwired to succeed. So we set them up for success. We don't put them in an environment where they're going to be stressed and they're going to struggle and fail versus putting them in an environment where they're supported in a way where they can flourish. And that means that we're going to need to talk to these entrepreneurs like you and I and say, your job description is simple. Create environments where your role is to make sure that everybody knows they're better off with you than without you. Right? So you've got to create the environments where these doctors can flourish, which means they need to be edified and compensated for doing great work. Sorry, that was a big tee up, but I really want to ask you, does that resonate with you? What are your thoughts on that? Argue with me on that, what have you. That's just what we're seeing.

When you and I were in school, the majority of people who graduated started their own practices.

Yes.

You know, they went out and whether they, you know, they might have associated for a short period of time until they figure out what they were going to do, but then they started their own practice. And that was the model.

That was the—

that's what you sold. And even now, as I'm doing recruitment efforts, I'll talk about the, the joys of being able to be your own boss and, and do it and, uh, starting your own practice. Today, most of the graduates do not have that entrepreneurial desire. They want to go— they love chiropractic, they want to serve the world, they want to serve humanity, they want to be good at what they do, but they want to work for a franchise or they want to work, you know, in a collaborative— inside of a corporate model, another corporate model. And they don't want to handle the business and the growth and all of the things— hiring, firing, marketing. They want other people to do it, but they want to be a great doctor. And they want to be clinically competent at what they do, and they want to develop their skills in being able to do that. So more and more graduates today are looking for exactly that. So I think you pegged it right on, you know, Steve, that is, that is the trend of how things are going.

So I think we can do a better job framing this as a profession and for the students, like if we framed it better, like, so the frame I use around this is if you go to a, if you look at a hospital, Inside of a hospital, you'll have, for example, neurosurgeons doing brain surgery, right? So, and that hospital exists to deliver that surgery and to create an environment where that surgeon can do their work, right? So, those surgeons don't own the hospital, right? So, and there's no brain surgeons running around town right now with their head hung low saying, well, I'm only a neurosurgeon. I don't own the hospital. You know, I'm just a brain surgeon, just doing brain surgery. And they get recognized and they get edified and they get compensated for doing the work. And if, if, if we could just position chiropractic properly here and just entrepreneurs like you and I just recognize we have an opportunity for creating these environments. And by the way, it's a sexy business model. It's like you, you create these environments, you handle the marketing, the sales, the support, the back office, business office, and financials. Like you support that environment and let them do the doctoring. Oh my gosh, man. Everybody wins. Win-win opportunity.

Everybody wins.

Everybody wins.

Yeah, 1000%. You're exactly right. Exactly right.

But it has to be both sides of the equations have to be done right. So I'm speaking to the entrepreneurs because I know who's listening right now. It's like, guys, you have to recognize, do the math, understand the financial modeling that I'm describing. It's like you are going to have such a successful business. If you set this up right. It's all about your business model, your financial modeling, your compensation modeling, right? So all of that is just so, so critical. Dr. B, I didn't mean to hijack the conversation, but I know, I know that you're a man of influence there. Just knowing on those campuses is like, we have to have that. We have to have our eye on where the, where the profession's trending and how we can best prepare these graduates to, to succeed in the profession.

So something you said, I don't want to— you said it really quick, And I think we need to amplify it, particularly for the entrepreneurs and business-skilled individuals that are listening to this, is to create the processes and systems and whatever you need to do to make people win. And very often when people fail, it's not because they failed as much as we didn't create the right environment for them to win, to succeed.

Exactly right.

And, and I'm totally seeing that in this role as president of the college. It's, there's so many articulating pieces and Part of it is, yes, we want to develop the program necessary for students, but if a student fails, I take full responsibility for that. We didn't give them the support that they needed to make it through the program. If an employee fails, it's their supervisors or the environment that they're in that caused them to not thrive, to succeed. So, we need to, as leaders, step back from the picture and say, how does everybody win in this scenario? And how do I create a structure for that rather than throwing somebody there?

Oh, you guys figure it out.

Out. We need to create the structure in the format for them to win. Isn't that what we do with our patients? We want to give them a system by which they're going to win. What objectives are we going to apply with our recommendations? Why coming in for care? What are you going to expect? What are you going to see on the other side? And yes, obviously they're coming very— because they want to feel better, the problem go away. But if we can create clear metrics and clear data that they can see, oh my goodness, look how much better my spine is moving. Oh, look, that instrument changed. Oh, look, this is what's happening. They're understanding. Seeing the benefits of what's happening and they're winning even if their symptom didn't go away.

That's right. Yeah.

So, be clear. How can we set people up for winning in whatever environment they're in?

So, I think the approach that we teach is tracks, right? There's a track towards practice ownership. There's a track towards working inside of a corporation. There's a track towards being a caregiver or a business builder or associate. There's a track towards practice ownership by a plant-to-partner or a plant-to-purchase arrangement. Like, there's— we teach 10 tracks to success, right? So, and only 3 of them involve clinic or practice ownership. And there's 7 other tracks that are— that are, you're not an owner, but you're an awesome, successful chiropractor, right? And it's about figuring out what does success look like for you as an individual. The problem is that so many of the decision makers, us, we're un— we're entrepreneurial by nature, and we can't imagine not wanting to own your own practice, your own clinic. So we project right? And it's like a love language when you just can't understand. It's like, well, I'm showing you love. Like, but that's not how I receive love. This is like a business love language is like, where are you on the stress continuum around risk tolerance? Right? It's just like, that's gonna be a big definition around like, how are you gonna spend your time? And if we would frame it in such a way, it's like, I know, cuz we coach doctors who are in all 10 tracks, you know what I mean? Like, I know I've got, I've got clients who show up and they're seeing, you know, your average 87 to 100 visits a week. They're making somewhere between $85,000 and $100,000 a year. And I'm not just putting a price tag on success. I'm not doing that. But there's only so many ways to articulate, like, this is where a person is in their walk and they've got $250,000 in student loans and they're trying to do a life, whatever. And they're really struggling and they own a practice. They're a practice owner. Congratulations. You're 10 years into owning your own practice and you can barely pay the rent. Right. So, and then I got associate doctors who do not own the clinic. Who are making $600,000, $700,000, $800,000 a year as associates, not as owners. And people are like, what? I'm like, yes, there is lots of ways to be really successful as a copywriter. And you know what? They go home, they go to their family, they have their nights, they have their weekends. They don't have to deal with the brain damage associated with like starting and running and owning a practice. Like, you know that brain damage, right, Pete? So it's like, I mean, literally there is, and everything in between. I just want to open people's eyes to like, man, there's lots of ways to skin this cat. Just figure out like, what does success look like to you as a human, as a person? And then walk out that track that's going to bring you the fulfillment. You're going to be able to be a great chiropractor. Maybe you will be a chiropractor focused, period, on chiropractic. Maybe you'll be a chiropractic business owner. Maybe one day you'll just be a business owner that employs chiropractors and you're not even doing chiropractic anymore. It's just like there's so many paths forward.

So many ways to do it.

Absolutely.

So many ways to do it, man.

And, you know, I just appreciate the work that you guys are doing at Life West. You know, I just want to advocate for the support of these vitalistic colleges. It's just so important. Like at the Remarkable Practice, we, we support this 5 vitalistic colleges that we support. Life West is one of them. We advocate for you guys. That means financial support. That means giving you guys exposure. That means referring people. That means creating environments like we're going to have an environment in October at our upcoming Remarkable Practice immersion in October in Maryland. Where if you know somebody who's considering become— becoming a chiropractor, is considering going to school, bring them with you to the immersion and they're going to get an opportunity to meet Dr. Peter and several of the other Vitalistic Colleges presidents will be there. So you get an opportunity to ask questions and to learn more about the school. So keep that in mind, earmark that if you listen to this right now. It's like if you know somebody in your practice who's considering, somebody in your circle, in your life circle of influence, bring them to the immersion and we're going to make sure they get an opportunity to have a conversation with Dr. Peter. Dr. Pete, I've opened or closed pretty much every time I speak with this phrase, which is what the world needs now is chiropractic. And what chiropractic needs right now is more successful chiropractors. So the reason I say that, it's not just about the individual chiropractors. Like, yes, I want every chiropractor themselves to be successful, but it's successful chiropractors that inspire other people to become chiropractors. Like seeing you and Patty and how successful you guys were when we first opened up in Beverly, Massachusetts. That inspired me. You talk about, oh, we had a home office. That sounds really cute. You guys should have seen this spread. Spectacular home, awesome home office, right? Camila was like, don't even think about it, because she knows I would never stop working. So you had a beautiful— you have a beautiful family, beautiful home, awesome practice. But it was your success and how you opened up that home and opened up that practice to all of us to sit at your feet. Yes, I know you don't want to hear me say that, but it's like literally just listening to you guys and being like, guys, let's, let us help you see around corners. Let's help you see we're a happy couple, a healthy couple. We love our children. We know our family. Like you did it, man. You guys were such great beacons of success. And that's what inspires other people to become successful. So just, it's so vital that we create successful chiropractors so they will inspire others to become chiropractors so we can send them to LifeWest.

Love it. Love it. Thank you for what you're doing, Steve.

Keep them going.

Yeah, brother. Talk to me about this East Coast tour.

Yes, devil. We're, um, the May 6th, uh, gonna start an East Coast tour. So the 6th, we're gonna be in Portsmouth. The 7th, in Waltham, Massachusetts. Uh, in— on Friday, we're gonna be, you know, Thursday, you know, Thursday we're in Massachusetts. Friday, we're in Hartford. And Saturday, we're in New York. Monday in New Jersey and Tuesday in Philadelphia.

And so in what month are we talking about? May.

May.

Next month. This week.

So next month, May, starting May 9th. Is, is that what you said?

No, no. May 6th.

Starting May 6th in Portsmouth, heading and heading south from there. Head, head May, May 2026, guys, for you guys that listen to this right now, 'cause people will be listening to this podcast in the future. So May 2026, Dr. Peter, make sure I get all that information. I'd love to be there. Find a link in the show notes. It'll have all the states and dates, all the information. Is there any registration or anything that they need to preregister?

Just click the link, tell us where they're going to come. That way we know they're coming.

That's perfect. That's awesome. All right. Dr. Peter Kevorkian, my friend, one of my favorite chiropractors and absolutely my number one favorite laugh in chiropractic. So if you're ever around Dr. Peter, your challenge is to get him to laugh, because if he laughs in the room, you'll know exactly where he is. It's a beacon.

If you can't hear me, I'm not there.

Awesome, Steve.

Have a great day. Keep the power on, bro. Ciao.

Thanks, brother.

Please stick around for more business insights from this week's bonus interview with our Remarkable Success Partner dedicated to helping you more successfully help more people. Enjoy. All right, welcome everybody to this portion of the podcast. I am Dr. Chris Greer. I'm a coach here for the Remarkable Practice, and I have one of favorite people that I get to talk with on, on these. It's Dr. Steve Tullius from Waitlist Workshops. And just so you guys all know, I've used Waitlist Workshops now for a couple of years and just have had fantastic results with those. And I love the process and I love the patients that I get from them. And Dr. Steve started this for very unique reasons and in a very big purpose. So just with that, Dr. Steve, introduce yourself to the people who might not know you and give us a sense on what is Waitlist Workshops up and what is it there? What's it exist for?

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Dr. Chris. Always a pleasure chatting with you, and thank you for the opportunity to serve you and your practice, you know, with Weightless Workshops.

So welcome.

I'm 24 years in practice. Um, like many of you listening, I believe I was born to be a chiropractor and help get this big idea to the masses, and I take that really seriously. And, and I, I got so frustrated in practice with what I saw as a big problem for myself, which was I wanted a pediatric and family practice. I wanted a wellness type of practice. But the reality was I had a neck pain and back pain clinic, uh, because the majority of people, if they have a positive impression of chiropractic, think we're good for neck pain and back pain. And, and our attraction models and our websites and our brochures typically match that belief system. And so I, in 2012, I sold my practice and, uh, I went on a 9-month trip around the I didn't work for a year. I, I took that time off to, to reset with my family, see the world, go on this cool trip, and with the vision of coming back to create the practice of my dreams, which was a pediatric-focused practice, you know, and being 100% cash and all those things. And, uh, it was an amazing time, amazing trip, but, uh, and I did come back with a really cool vision, but I also came back broke. Um, it was a lot more expensive. To travel for 9 months without a job than I had budgeted for, especially because the dollar was getting killed at the time in Europe. And I had to figure out a way to, from scratch, to build a brand new practice on a shoestring budget. And I also came back with a severely ill child who developed an autoimmune encephalitis at the time. So, you know, like many things in life, we sometimes are able to build and create things out of necessity and with our back against the wall. And, and that's what I had to do to feed my family and and figure out a way to build this practice. So I started doing workshops as, you know, workshops have been, um, taught and preached about since, I don't know, the earliest years, you know, BJ was telling us we had to go out and share the word, right? So, uh, but back in the day, for those of you that were around pre-social media, uh, we did it by hitting the streets and taking flyers, uh, to to Jamba Juice and the local health food store, give it, have our teams take 5 to 10 flyers each and that, okay guys, you gotta pass 'em out. You gotta put 'em up. And that's how we filled rooms and it worked, but it was a lot of work and it was a lot of groundwork. And then the world changed. It turned into this thing, you know, that we have now with social media, you know, coming on the scene. And I'm a puzzle solver. I always have been. And I thought, okay, well, Well, what if I start doing Facebook ads? And I started playing with it and I knew that I could solve this puzzle and I did. I, I figured out how to regularly attract 15, 20, 25 people to my workshops and other docs saw what I was doing and asked if I would do it for them. So that's how it all was born. And it was born out of a deep need to solve a deep pain, which is an unspoken pain for the profession. You know, I talk with docs quite a bit, and there's a lot of successful practices out there. If we look deep enough, we often find that the types of people we're serving are not the types of people that we set out to when we left chiropractic college. And not that those people don't need the help, but it's the types of cases, you know.

We, we—

this profession was built and saved upon the principle of helping the sickest of the sick get well. And stay that way. And if we take an honest assessment of our landscape, we have fallen far from that. And so I wanted to solve that for me personally. Never in my world, my dreams, did I ever dream of having a marketing company. And, but what I realized is that I have the opportunity to help create the demand for this massive need. And that's the beauty of Weightless Workshops is that we're not doing workshops around musculoskeletal stuff, although we, we have some that you can give and we've, we've honestly created those because so many docs just want that so badly. And, and, but once they experience the Gut-Brain Connection or the Neurodevelopmental Disorders Workshop or the Mental Health Matters and they see, oh wait, we can, we can attract these people who we always used to attract. And we can explain this in a logical way where it makes total sense and gives people the emotional certainty. Well, why wouldn't they want to do that? And so that's what we have. We have a system to attract the sickest of the sick, you know, pediatric, you know, fill pediatric practices and offices that want to help people with autoimmune issues to digestive hormonal issues, you name it. And, um, it's a turnkey system to do so. And I just really appreciate the opportunity to help do that for you and your practice too.

Absolutely. And that's, you know, I think what you've already said should get people thinking. So docs on the line, what you should be thinking is, oh, am I serving the population that I set out to serve? And maybe even the bigger question, am I serving the population that chiropractic was designed to serve, which is the sickest of the sick? You know, if we go way back, this is what we have historical evidence for, is having phenomenal results with the sickest of the sick, not just people with conventional low back pain, headaches, neck pain, those sorts of things. And Dr. Steve, you're right. Those people need, need it too. Like the people who are doing the reactive short-term, you know, chiropractic thing, they need help too. But it's not what your system does, right? It's like there's all sorts of marketing systems out there to help get those people in the door. The doc on the line that I think ought to be really tuning in or leaning in right now is the one who's like, yeah, I think there's more. I think there's more that I want to do in my community. And how do I do that? So I'm one who— I also started before the time of social media, like, and we were doing all like trying to fill workshops. I do workshops all the time and, you know, my workshops were good and my delivery was good, but it would be really hard to get more than 3 or 4 people to them. You know, like we really had to work for 10 people to get to them. And so when your solution came in front of me and I was like, okay, they do the work. Work on digital so that people show up at my office like they're going to tomorrow night, by the way. Like, I've got that already locked in. I haven't had to do anything. They're showing up tomorrow night so that I can do what I love best, which is actually deliver, actually go out and inspire people through the message of chiropractic and how it relates to, in tomorrow's example, neurodevelopmental disorders or the gut-brain connection, which has been my most successful one. It, at connecting with people, like those are the docs that I think need to be leaning in and need to be reaching out to you. Now, one of the things I wanted to point out is like you do your attraction to these events digitally. One of the common concerns with docs is that digital new patients are harder to convert and harder to retain. Now, you and I have talked about this many times because I'm a client of yours, but do you mind if I take a second just to talk about that specific issue?

Yeah, no, I absolutely love you to tackle that one because it's— that's not a concern for our clients. So yeah, I'd love for you to tackle that one.

It isn't. Yeah. And I've had this issue with digital attraction, right? Like, boom, people are coming through the door. Oh, this is great. But man, they're difficult conversion processes. And whoa, if they do start, they're way harder retaining through your processes. And what I found with with waitlist workshops is that I— first off, my, my reception room, which is where I do my workshops, is full. You know, it's like we've got— and that from my office is 12 to 20 people. Like, that's full. It's great to have that energy in the room. Then the people who schedule new patient appointments from that, which is a pretty high rate in our office, they are ready. They know us, they like us, they trust us. We are already— our office is already their expert in the issue, so they convert well. And then What we've found now that we've done this for a couple of years is most of the people who we start through waitlist stay. So retention. And that's where, I mean, I'm just so bullish on retention. I just love it. I just, anything I can do to do something to improve retention, I want to get that word to the masses. And so I want to thank you personally. Like, it seems like this has solved the issue for practices who love to do workshops but struggle to get people in. And they love to do workshops because they know when people start, start from workshops, they stay. So I, I just know your system works great for that. And I don't— it— I know that that was one of the reasons that you started doing it for your own office. Maybe if you want to speak any more to that, or if you feel like I covered it.

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. So I, I refer to workshops as day zero, right? We talk about day one and day two all the time, but day zero, man, if you get people coming in with Again, the— here's the formula: massive needs equals high-quality leads, right? Number one. So these people, they're not— this is not a dinner workshop either. Not that dinner workshops are bad, but dinner workshops are typically around people with— maybe they have a perceived need, maybe they don't.

Now we—

now we're talking about people with the biggest needs in, in society, right? And so, uh, like for neurodevelopmental disorders, there's no bigger need than helping your sick child get Yes. And so people come to these workshops with a very targeted need, and then they sit through an hour of your class. And we don't always just leave you with the group. Like, we give you the formula. We give you the formula to give people the logical and emotional certainty. I've given these workshops over 300 times. Our doctors have given them over 10,000 times. And we coach our doctors on how to present and how to give that logical, emotional certainty, because the reality is is, as chiropractors, we're fortune tellers. We, we know what the future looks like if people were just to have that exam and to take our recommendations and move forward with care. We know that their future looks much brighter with us and chiropractic in it than without it. So the— so all we have to do is get a group of people with a big need, help give them the logical emotional certainty, which we build into our presentations, teach our docs how to give it, and then invite those people in for care. So what I always loved is, and, you know, I got, I got kind of frustrated too. I got frustrated when someone came in with low back pain and, and was questioning whether I could help them or not. When I was helping kids who weren't speaking begin to speak and people with seizures, you know, their seizures go away. I was starting to get a little ticked at that. And so, you know, these people, they see you as a specialist. They, that's, we are. And they recognize our value and we show them exactly what it's going to look like to work with us so that when they come in, well, it's no, it's no wonder there's high conversion because they've already bought. They bought at the workshop. You told them what it all looked like. You told them what a care plan looks like. You told them all these things. Well, now they're just coming in to find out what are the findings of what are your recommendations, right? What a concept, right? And then because of that, they understand the process of correction. That's going to take time and repetition. And so they don't balk at 12-month care plans. You know, this model was— this was built in 100% cash office. Um, they, they're glad to, to pay. And then they, they probably notice this. They also know other people just like them who also now have high retention, conversion retention, because they have these big problems too. So yes, I'm a little partial to it. I hear that problem all the time, that digital produces weak leads, but that's only because people are thinking of all these other attraction models that are based upon selling exams, right? And not— and that's commoditized, you know, that's, that's been commoditized. We're talking about establishing you as a specialist, and you don't have to sell your exam for cheap. You, you know, you can offer it for, you know, as I did, you know, my exam was $350 and I offered it for $150, which is still a discount, but it's not of this massive, massive discount. Um, so anyway, that's my, that's my take on it.

Absolutely. I, man, I, I am absolutely using that so many times. Massive needs equals high quality leads, and that's exactly what you guys do. You market to folks who have massive needs, and therefore the people who come and sit in your office have— are high quality leads on day zero, not even on day one, on day zero they're there. You also touched on the fact— and make sure, docs, you listen up to this because this system, Waitlist Workshop, they train If you're thinking like, oh my gosh, I'm not, I don't have a presentation ready. I don't exactly know how to present. I don't know how to close at a, at a workshop. Uh, we don't need to go into all the detail, but I, Dr. Steve, talk a little bit about the training that a doc receives so that they can deliver that high-quality workshop.

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I used to be deathly afraid of public speaking. So I understand the, a lot of the challenges with just even getting up in front of a room full of people.

Cool.

So number one, but not everyone shares that, like that, that fear that I had. However, I do know how to crush that for anyone who does, and we do it all the time. But the other piece is, and I didn't realize this was, this was really one of my limiting beliefs. I, I didn't realize that I had really perfected a system of communication to, to create that logical and emotional certainty so that people like, this makes total sense, you know, at high conversion rates. My associates who also were deathly afraid of public speaking, but had to because they were employees. They also developed really high conversion rates at workshops. And so the last couple years I've been really focused on this problem because our number one problem as a workshop company is not getting butts in the seats. That's just a math formula. And it's, it's one that's reproducible. That's why we can have a doctor give a workshop in 4 weeks and expect on average right now we're averaging 20 people in attendance. We're, And that could be from 15 to 25, but, but right now we're averaging 20. And that part's easy. It's just a math formula. The hard part is making sure that the docs are ready to convert that room. I just got off a— so here's how we do that. We give them extensive trainings to understand the principles at play, not being Steve, right? Because no one can be me and I can't be them. So, but there are are the best principles that we can follow to take people to that end result, which is, again, we're all fortune tellers. We know that those lives can be transformed and will be if people move forward with care. So then what do people need to know? What do they need to believe? What do they need to feel? And what objections do we have to handle so that they— we can even get them to that place? And so that's what I've really, obsessed over. That process. That's what I built for me. It's only until recently that I fully understood it so that I could teach it. And so now we, we do one-on-one coaching prior to every first event. I just got off a call just before this. We're on a— we went through all the slides. Well, and I'm so grateful that I did. I didn't used to always do this because there were slight nuances at little key points where people are, are killing their credibility, or they're— they, they haven't established trust yet and they're selling chiropractic way too Really, that happens all the time. And so it's just little tiny tweaks, little tiny principles to understand that, okay, that makes sense. That's why I shouldn't do that. And so now we're, we just, we have a great process of identifying those things and then doing some one-on-one training to make sure that they're ready to hit the ground running.

Awesome. So good. Well, hopefully by this point, the, the listener is like, oh my gosh, like, this is the next thing for me. If that's you as a, as a listener, like, wow, I love to educate. I would I'd love to see the sickest of the sick. I'd love to have a bigger impact in my practice, then get in touch with Dr. Steve. And that's the last thing, so what I want to end with— thank you so much for being here, but tell the folks, how do they get in touch with you?

Yeah, easiest way, go to waitlistworkshops.com. There's a calendar on that page to set up a call. It'll be with me. I do all the calls because I, I want to, I want to make sure it's a great fit. And we're going to walk through all those things and make sure— not everyone, this isn't for No one. This, this is, this is for offices that are super passionate, want to transform their community, want to see the sickest of the sick. Want to see that not everyone has to see kids like we, but if you want to see kids, I don't know anyone who does it better than us to get kids in, into offices and also be super passionate about education and growing and knowing that you, we can always grow in our communication. If that's you, then go to the website weightlessworkshops.com. Also Steve Tullius on Instagram or Facebook. I'm highly accessible that way too.

All right, awesome. Check it out, everybody. Dr. Steve, always a pleasure. Thanks for being a success partner with us as we all help each other help more people. So we're looking forward to continued success, uh, for everybody who's involved.

Awesome. Thank you so much, Doc. I love being part of TRP and I just love the mission and the great work you guys are doing to, to make docs, um, really prepared to, to meet that need, right? Because it's one thing to get the patients in, uh, but it's another to make sure that they stay and they're, they experiences there and the systems are dialed in and you guys are crushing it there. So thanks so much.

Absolutely. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Remarkable CEO Podcast. Remember, what the world needs now is chiropractic, and what chiropractic needs now is more successful chiropractors. If you like this podcast, please subscribe, share with a friend, and leave us a review. And if you'd like to connect with us personally, direct message us on Facebook, LinkedIn, or Instagram. Now go and be remarkable.