Challenging The Status Quo And Managing The Imposter Syndrome With Veronica Kirin

Foreign.

Welcome to beyond you'd why podcast where we go beyond just talking about your why and actually help you discover and then live your why. You see, we believe that knowing your why, that driving force behind every decision you make and every action you take, is the essential first step to really knowing yourself. It allows you to move forward faster and have a bigger impact. If you're already a fan of the show, then you know that every week we talk about one of the nine whys and then we introduce you to somebody with that why so you can see how their why has played out in their life. This show will be more powerful for you if you've already discovered your why. If you still need to do that, head over to whyinstitute.com and discover your why today. It'll only take you about five minutes. Now let's meet today's guest.

Welcome to beyond you'd why Podcast, where we go beyond just talking about your why and actually helping you discover and then live your why. And so if you're a regular listener, you know that every week we talk about one of the nine whys and then we bring on somebody with that why to see how their why has played out in their life. And so this week we are going to be talking about the why of challenge. So if this is your why, then you live outside the box. You don't believe in the norm or following rules or drawing inside the lines. It is far more natural for you to rebel against the stereotypical or classical way of doing things. You aggressively seek unique ways of approaching the world and finding solutions that no one else has considered. You like to create and innovate, especially in game changing ways. You have eccentric friends and eclectic tastes and a large variety of both. You may have diverse interests with little in common with each other. As an entrepreneur, you prefer to create a new market versus serving an existing market. You love to be different, think differently and challenge virtually anyone or anything that is two rote or conventional. People with your why often accomplish amazing feats. When you say you want to change the world, you actually mean it. Pushing the envelope comes naturally to you. And so today I've got a great guest for you. Her name is Veronica Kieran. She is an anthropologist, author and serial entrepreneur who works with business leaders to scale their impact and income while managing imposter syndrome. She is also the author of award winning book Stories of Elders and creator of Stories of which documents the pandemic in real time. Veronica, welcome to the podcast.

Hi Gary, thanks for having me.

So I asked you this before we started, but tell everybody now. Where are you right now?

I am currently in Berlin, Germany.

What the heck are you doing there?

Well, you know, we talking about challenge here. So apropos for everything in my life and I really wanted to have the opportunity to live in a different place than what I had grown up in. I wanted to see what else the world looked like. And the pandemic, believe it or not, made that actually easier because it helped me cut ties, which is heartbreaking in a way. And I desperately miss my friends and they know it. But I wasn't seeing them anyway because we wanted to all be safe. And so when the opportunity came to move to Berlin, it was an easy yes, and we are loving it. It's been one month and it's just been glorious.

So where are you from then? Tell us a little bit about your story. Where were you born? How the heck did you get into anthropology versus where you are now? That's an interesting twist.

Yes. I can tell you that it's unusual for me to be asked where I was born. I'm usually the one asking where someone was born as the anthropologist, but. So I was actually born in Michigan, the Great Lakes State, and grew up in Michigan and a little bit between Michigan and Pennsylvania, which is where my grandparents were. My grandparents were very old world style grandparents and actually lived in an old steel mill town. So I got very used to this romantic feeling around brick roads and, you know, eating palat with my grandmother, which is a Croatian style crepe, except for much more fried. And the crepe is. So it's a lot better for you. Right. And so I kind of grew up already straddling two worlds and talking about challenge as your. Why? It appeared very early for me. I was bullied in school, but I had that challenge. I didn't know at a time, but I had that challenge in my head. And so when I was made fun of for being nothing like the other kids, I was absolutely going to the beat of my own drum. At that moment. I was able to kind of pull out of it and think to myself, well, why is your way the better way? So automatically challenge was appearing in my life and it was protecting me. In fact, no surprise then that I would become an anthropologist if I, in that early age, was already thinking, why is your way, your society, your culture the better way? Anthropologists study cultures and intentionally remove themselves from their own culture in order to be as much a tabula rasa as possible. Thus to have an unbiased lens, to look into other Cultures and societies. So there you go. Is that that string of events? But so you ask, you know, like, where did I move from to Berlin? And the short answer is I was living in Los Angeles at the beginning of the pandemic and I thought I wanted to, you know, try out the LA dream. I prefer warm weather because my blood is Croatian. I'm meant to be in Mediterranean style weather. I simply don't do well in the cold. It's a good running joke with friends and family. It's the truth. But LA didn't feel very good to be surviving a pandemic in, and I didn't have a support system there yet because I'd only been there six months. So I went back to Michigan where my partner still was. We regrouped in Detroit and moved to Berlin there.

And how are you liking it there in Berlin? I mean, what's going on there as far as the pandemic and how are you guys surviving there? Do you speak German?

Ich learne Deutsch. Ich spreche ein bist Jen Deutsch. All your listeners are rolling their eyes. Accent is terrible. I speak Spanish fairly fluently, French and a bit of Croatian and a little bit of American Sign Language. None of those are very helpful right now. So we're learning German, but we're loving it. So currently the status of the pandemic here is we're kind of in a soft lockdown. So public transport is still open. Stores, like grocery stores are still open, but some of the bigger stores or the soft sell stores are all closed. So we wanted to get new bicycles and we had to find a store that was allowed to be open in order to buy a bicycle, for example. So I can go on like coffee walks, but you can't really go on coffee dates. None of the cafes are open. So it's an interesting way to learn a new culture and society because it's almost like an intentional baby step into Berlin since nothing is very open. So I'm able to get to know public transportation in baby steps and I'm able to get to know the grocery stores in baby steps rather than doing it all all at once. But we are really loving it. It's just lovely. I've been having incredible meetings, networking with entrepreneurs. Since there's no networking events, we're doing it all via Zoom and everyone's been really welcoming. It's been just really fantastic so far.

Oh, that is awesome. And so tell us a little bit about imposter syndrome and how did you get involved with that?

Yes, well, I had my own imposter syndrome. I honestly was talking to a client about it because she's experiencing her own imposter syndrome. She's going through a growth spurt. I just went through my own growth spurt. And with growth comes imposter syndrome. It doesn't matter if you have done whatever you are doing now a million times, if you do it in a new and different way, in a new industry or with a new title. Oftentimes, imposter syndrome rears its head because it's tied to our identity. So if our identity hasn't shifted to the new level we've reached, imposter syndrome will emerge.

So what is imposter syndrome? Define that for us.

Yes. Perfect question. So imposter syndrome is the feeling that you are in the wrong place, that you are literally an imposter, that you've fooled the masses into thinking that you are capable or knowledgeable. And oftentimes it comes even more for people who are minorities, women, people of color. They find themselves in a room where there's other people that don't look like them or sound like them or act like them, and they wonder themselves, how did I make my way here? Even though you have done it through your own merits. So I work a lot with entrepreneurs with imposter syndrome because they're going from founder to CEO mindset, and that usually is when imposter syndrome rears its head.

Yeah. Does anybody not have imposter syndrome, if.

They tell you they've never experienced imposter syndrome, they are lying to themselves?

Yeah, I mean, I've definitely experienced that at many different times in my life. You know, when you. Just as you're growing up, how could you not? When you're thrown into a new situation, you're the newbie, and it just. You don't feel comfortable. So how do you help people with it?

Yeah, so the first thing is to really identify what's the root cause. You know, is it your inner child that is being triggered because something feel scary and you're worried about being exposed? And if you're exposed, you lose out on your subsistence because now nobody wants to work with you. Is it your inner bully? You know, sometimes our inner bullies are our mom or dad's voices in our heads telling us we can't do it. So if you're feeling, I can't do it, I can't do it, sometimes that's simply your inner bully coming out. And we have to stand up to our inner bully and tell them that we can. Sometimes it's just the identity shift. And so it's nothing like super psychologically profound, but it still needs to dissolved within us. And so what I told my clients today, in fact, was that, you know, this is going to take time, but remind yourself that everything you are being asked to do by these clients is all things you've done before. If you remind yourself of that, your identity will start to settle as a consultant and you'll start to feel like you're finding your sea legs.

You know how much of overcoming imposter syndrome is action? Just doing it. I mean, you have to do it, right? I don't know. Can you not do something to overcome imposter syndrome doesn't just go away.

I would say no, because our minds are plastic, as you know, the way our brains work, but they need new input in order to rewrite. So even if you're sitting in meditation in order to overcome imposter syndrome, you are still taking action. So I would say no, you can't do nothing, but you're never actually not doing nothing.

Well, that's true. So what got you so interested in imposter syndrome? What was your story that led you to saying I got to help other people with imposter syndrome?

You know, to rewind a little bit. I was thrown into some pretty intense experiences when I was younger. So taking my why challenge, I decided to take a gap year halfway between sophomore and junior year of university. And I joined the National Civilian Community Corps which is a branch of AmeriCorps in the United States. The NCCC's are kind of like the National Guard but with hammers rather than guns. So we train on a base we deploy all of over the United States. Sometimes we do so in partnership with FEMA or the American Red Cross. So I was wide eyed, bright eyes, bushy tailed. Suddenly I am down in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina and I've been told that I am going to be starting the caseworking program for a nonprofit organization. I'd had no such experience except for I'm a people person. As you can tell, I did the research. And by the way, for those who don't recall, Hurricane Katrina slammed into the Gulf coast in August of 20 2005. It's so long ago, I have to rewrite. How, say the year? The Internet was a different place. Research was a different place. I was still using a flip phone. Okay? So my research into figuring out how to make this happen was very different. By the time I finished my role there, which was only two months, I had over 300 cases and I had three filing cabinets, all color coded, all figured out, double lock and key, making sure that people's information was secure and safe, that they were also being served. So as a 20 year old, having done that, of course, the first thing you start thinking is, can I do this? I want to do this. But doesn't matter if you want to do it, because the brain still wants to go, can I do this, Can I do this, Can I do this, Can I do this? And so as an entrepreneur, as I have pivoted into new roles throughout my life, of course it rears its head becoming an author rears its head becoming an anthropologist and getting my degree. What does it mean to be an anthropologist? What does it mean to be an entrepreneur? A web developer, especially a web developer without a degree in web development because your degree is in anthropology.

Um, as a coach and a consultant. So for myself, I found it to be really key. The faster I can pivot around imposter syndrome, the better my work is. And as I am scaling clients because my work day to day is working with entrepreneurs who want to scale up their businesses or they're in pain because they're hitting their human 24 hour limit and they don't know what to do. So it's time to scale. If you're going to scale, you're going to hit imposter syndrome. And it's critical that we work your way through that as fast as possible, but also as holistic as possible. So like you said, like not ignoring it, you can't ignore it, but it's critical to work through it. So that's why it's become just enormously important in my work as an entrepreneur coach.

So there's going to be a lot of entrepreneurs listening to this. They're going to soon be facing that imposter syndrome. What do you do with them? What's your process? How do you help them get past it? Or is it different for every case?

It is absolutely different for every case. But there are broad strokes that are available. The first is to really think about when. Has imposter syndrome ever reared its head before in your life? So is there a pattern? If there's a pattern, that's awesome. Because now we can start to see where your triggers are and we can predict when it's going to come and if we can predict when it's going to show up for you, we can get ahead of it and be prepared so it will still happen. But rather than feel the panic and sink into the can I do it instead we see it, we say, oh, hi, imposter syndrome, you're here again. Okie doke. Let's start working our way toward integrating this new identity of growth. So that's the biggest key for me, is figuring out where your triggers are for imposter syndrome. If you discover that it's an inner child issue. So something inside you feels unsafe because of this new growth, I ask my clients to tell them their inner child that they've got this. So that's your mantra for that time period. I've got this, I've got this. And that's where my client today, you know, I said, everything you've done for your clients, you've done this before. You've got this. So is an inner child coming out. And then the inner bully, of course, is very mean, and so we're very strong back at them and say, no, no, no, no, no. You don't know what you're talking about. I can do it. You be quiet. Go sit down.

Are those the two most common reasons, or is there a most common reason why people have imposter syndrome?

Those are the broad strokes. So there's definitely all kinds of little nuances, but those are kind of the two categories as to the voices in our heads that often are naysayers.

So are you able, when you know this, are we able to preempt the strike? Like, imagine you're on an airplane and you're scared of turbulence. Well, obviously turbulence is coming, so you prepare yourself. If there's turbulence, this is what I do. Same sort of thing, exactly.

Yes. I love that you said it like that. So, yeah, you kind of train yourself almost like a fire drill, like, how do I want to react to this? So when it does come, because you don't always know when the turbulence is going to happen, you just know that it's going to happen. I'm on an airplane, it's going to happen. I'm an entrepreneur. Imposter syndrome is going to happen. So if you pre train your brain and decide who you want to be or how you want to react in those moments, in order to navigate it, you are going to have a better outcome. You're going to get through it either way. But it's that moment of decision of, you know, am I going to get through this and learn from it and grow, or am I going to let it get the better of me for days, weeks, months? Heaven forbid you let it get the better of you and you let go of your business.

So from my perspective, I would see imposter Syndrome being a box that you put yourself into. And we know how you like being put into a box.

You're like, I'm not staying in this box. There's no way.

Get out of here. Nope. Where's the cutters? Can I.

Who says I have to be in this imposter syndrome box?

Who says it has to be a box?

That's right. So you help people get the out of the box they put themselves into.

Yeah, to grow the box, to reshape it, whatever it needs to be. We live our life by labels, for better or for worse, and that shapes our identities. It comes straight down to identity. What box have you been put in? Or have you put yourself? And how do we grow you out of that? Because the opportunities are a knocking.

So let's talk for a minute about identity.

You.

I hear more and more and more about it. How would you define your identity? What is identity?

I just had this conversation with one of my friends. This is such great timing. So your identity, in my opinion, is that je ne sais quoi part of you that comments on your own lived experiences. So we have kind of like this nature versus nurture balance, the question of the world. Of course, we all have experiences, and our experiences shape us. But why do two people have the same experience and choose different things? It's that je ne sais quoi, that part of you that we can't really totally define. Whatever makes us human or makes us conscious. You know, I almost did a philosophy minor, but I didn't. So I'm not going to delve too far into this. But it's that piece of you that even though you've lived for decades, you're still you. And you know, you're still you.

So is your identity something that you define? Like, is it a five sentences about who I am, or is it a feeling? Or what is it?

That's the fun part, isn't it?

Yeah.

You are delving into the realm of Plato and Socrates and Nietzsche and all of the philosophers who have been grappling with this issue for the ages. And have we got a firm answer? Not really. But I can say as an entrepreneur and working with my clients, that we have choice that goes on top of our lived experiences. And it is in those choices of who we want to be that we can shape our identity. So you're still you, but it is you that has made those choices rather than those experiences making those choices.

I got it. So you use identity. In what way do we use identity?

It's basically our roadmap for life. So our identity shapes our reactions to our experiences. It shapes the choices we want for our career. Why did I choose anthropology or disaster relief instead of science or math, which would have been hilarious and everyone in the world as well. Glad I didn't choose science or math, but. So our identity, it's almost like if you could think of, like, the folds of our brain as a map and our identity are those pieces. It tells us yes or no. It helps us to describe what we want. And sometimes it comes straight down to, like, what food you want to eat that day. Like, I identify as somebody who really loves Italian food, so I'm going to choose the pasta over the salad. Right. It can be so tiny, and yet it shapes our world every moment of every day. And I think that the meditative. I'm going to say the word guru because usually guru is applied for people who teach meditation or yoga. So meditative gurus would argue that we can reshape our identity. It's that ability to make choices about ourselves. And so we're choosing to change the roadmap, which then changes how we react to the world around us. And that is our.

Yeah, it's. That's really interesting. And I'm sure we could go on forever about that, just like everybody else has as well.

We need a bottle of wine and some really good Cheesecake and about 24 hours of just yawning.

There we go. So tell us about your book, Stories of Elders. What is that?

So that is an anthropological, what we call ethnography. So it's an anthropological study about the paradigm shift of the high tech revolution. So my favorite thing as an anthropologist to study is paradigm shifts. And so in 2015, I noticed tech was affecting my life as an entrepreneur in tech, but it was also being talked a lot about in the news. And my friends were talking about how uncomfortable they were with Facebook, which I think we're all still having that conversation. And I'm a challenge. Why? So I wanted to do something about it. I don't want to sit around and let somebody tell me what to think. So to me, life is understood through lived experiences and stories. That's ethnography. I didn't feel that I could adequately understand how technology is affecting our society unless I spoke with the people who had lived through as much of the high tech revolution as possible. And so that's why the book is called Stories of Elders. I went to people who were born before 1945, so before World War II, before that tech revolution that happened due to the War. And then afterwards, we know it was a enormous boon to our economy and to our technology. I spoke with people who grew up using crank cars and now they're using an iPhone. And that is the foundation for understanding that I was seeking. So that's what the book holds within its pages.

And what did you learn from, like, what's the essence of the book? Is there like a theme? This is what I learned. Or are these more of the stories about those people?

Yeah, so it's less the stories about those people, although you get to know them because some of them appear over and over throughout the book because they've had such a front row seat, some of them. For example, I interviewed Ned Gold, who engineered our first spy satellite for the US government. And if you want a technological conundrum, try getting film into space, taking pictures, and then sending it back to be developed. We have it so easy. This is with digital photography. And so people like that, some of them appeared over and over and you got to know their. But really it was about their reflection on technology. So the book is organized into the 20 most common topics around technology that emerged through these interviews. Things like communication, relationships, community. And so that's what the book was really seeking. How is it affecting our society?

Wow. So if I were to talk to your parents and I asked them if you think, like most kids, was your upbringing or the way you lived your younger years, more typical and traditional or more different and your own way, what would they say?

I think they would say that a large part of our conflict came in from them being rather traditional parents and me being a challenge. Why?

So, you know, I was quite a good girl, if I do say so myself. It was very, you know, Audrey Hepburn in My Fair Lady. I'm a good girl, I am. And I followed the rules. But there was tension because I knew that I wanted to explore more. And that was really what came. I think what drew me to anthropology is that once I was allowed to explore myself and I found anthropology at university, it all clicked together and I was able to explore both what makes me me culturally, but then also what's reinforcing that and what's breaking that down and what's reflected about me in other cultures and what are other cultures reflecting onto us? And, yeah, it went on from there. Still going, still going.

It'll never end. You know what?

It won't.

One of the interesting things about the why of challenge is how they react to people being bullied or bullies in general. And what's your take on when you See somebody being bullied or being bullied yourself, they're the person that stands up for the one that's being pushed down. Has that played out that way for you?

So I'm actually oddly conflict adverse. So instead I befriend the person that I feel is being attacked and be a resource or a stanchion of strength for them to reinforce the fact that they are okay despite whatever is going on. I will absolutely stand in the way of somebody being a total a hole. Absolutely. But I'm not going to go to fisticuffs and I'm not going to go out of my way. But I had a lot of the friends who were just kind of on the fringes of our school society back in the day and worked really hard to make sure that they felt like they were okay as well.

Wow. So your friends were kind of more of the eclectic ones like we talked about. You had a wide variety of friends, not just jocks or the. You had a lot of different kinds of friends.

I was very much the floater.

The floater? Yeah. One of my friends who's a economist, he's one of the world's leading economists, and he writes a weekly email newsletter to millions of people. He has your why? And I asked him one day, I said, why do you have such a wide variety of friends? Because I was at his 60th birthday party and there was just so many different kinds of people at this party. I couldn't believe it. From Newt Gingrich to the boyfriend of the hairstylist. And I was like, why do you have such a wide variety of friends? And he said, well, it's my job to be able to explain to the world what's really happening. And if all I know is my own perspective, then that's just one perspective. So I need to be challenged by other people. I need to see it from other people's perspective so that I can accurately tell what's happening versus just one opinion.

How does that feel?

That's really interesting. I mean, it feels very familiar. Quite frankly, I have the full spectrum of friends still, and one could explain it. Well, you need to have a unique subset of friends in order to be a good coaching consultant to entrepreneurs, because you're going to have a variety of clients. But honestly, I feel like if I had only one type of friend, I would get bored.

Yeah, it's hard. You got to keep you stimulated, huh?

And there's just so much out there to learn. We have one life that we know of and it's already overwhelming to consider how will I taste the fruits of this world while I have it? It's the same conundrum of people who love to read. And they say I will never be able to read all the books in the world. You'll never be able to experience everything in the world. And so if I have only one type of friend, I'm already cutting myself short.

So our last question. What is the best piece of advice you've ever received or the best piece of advice you've ever given?

Hmm. So I think the best piece of advice I've ever received from one of my colleagues, actually in the NCCC's when I was still wide item bushy tailed, I was very upset that she wouldn't wear her seatbelt. And I'm a little bit like a Doberman in that way. Like the rules must be followed. What the heck? Oddly, for a challenge. What's going on? Why won't you wear your seatbelt? And she turned to me and she said, vern. Because my nickname on the construction site was Vern. Vern. Not all rules are made to be followed. And like what? Like just I was 20 years old. Very, very shocking and yet so very, very true. And I think as a challenge, that unlocked something within me because as I said, I grew up very traditionally and so to have somebody say that to me and basically validate that little whisper for me, that allowed me to grow into who I am. And I think the best piece of advice that I give is it's for entrepreneurs, but really it works for anyone that if you have an idea, you wouldn't be able to have the idea if you weren't the right person to make it happen. So people like to fool themselves into thinking that they can't do it for whatever reason. And here we are back at imposter syndrome. But you have what it takes. If you didn't, you couldn't have conceived of the idea. So if you have an idea banging around in your head, you've got to make it happen. You know how to find the resources, you know how to get the education. You know what you need to do because you were able to conceive the idea. So go do it.

Don't let anything stop you. Huh?

Don't let anything stop you.

That is awesome. So, Veronica, if people are listening to this and they say, well, I would really like to reach out to you, I'd like to connect with you, I'd like to follow you, what's the best way for people to get in touch with you?

They can hop on my website@veronicakiran.com, all of my social media is on there. My books are on there, and that email form goes directly to me. It actually does not go to my assistant. It's a direct line to myself. So if you want to talk more, just go ahead and get in touch.

That is awesome. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day in Berlin. And how long are you going to be in Berlin?

Forever.

We don't know yet, but it's indefinite.

Okay, awesome. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. It's great to get to know you and hear your story.

Thanks so much, Gary. I really appreciate it.

Great job. Yeah, there was a lot in there for people.

Thank you.

You get people outside of their box, right? They put themselves in a box and you get them outside. What is your message?

I do, yeah.

What is your message as far as your coaching? Why would somebody choose you?

I have a unique take in a couple of different ways. So I work to scale small businesses, but I use startup tactics to do it. I think that small businesses are the door that we can unlock to freedom for anyone, especially in the LGBTQ community. But a lot of small business owners don't have the resources or attention that startups do. And so they get stuck at their 24 hour and they can't grow and they get stressed and they don't know what to do. It wasn't the freedom they had dreamt about. The freedom is very possible for them, but we need to unlock that door for them.

So let me ask it again. Why would I choose you? I get what you're doing, I get the tactics that you use, but why would I choose you over everybody else who does what you do?

I'm not going to let you fail.

What is it that you believe? So tell me in a way that. See, because I think you're the perfect person for what you're doing. And the reason for that is because people put themselves into a box. People put themselves into limits. People limit themselves. And you don't think that way. And you're going to get me outside and pass what I thought I could do. You're going to push me beyond the box that I stuck myself into, whether that's imposter syndrome, whether that's all the tactics that you have. But essentially the question is not about what you're going to do for me or how you're going to do it, but it's why should I choose you? Which goes right back to your why does that make sense?

Definitely it does.

So if you start your answer to that question by saying, I believe.

Then if I believe what you believe, then you're the right person for me. If I don't believe what you believe, then you're not the right person for me, and that's okay, too. But if you don't tell me what it is you believe, you tell me all these things that you do, you leave it up to me to figure out who you are.

So may I try it again?

Yes.

So I went inside my head one day, and I thought really hard about what is the meaning of life? And what I came out with is that I believe that life is a chance to happen. And we have this one moment in history to become everything that we were meant to be. And my calling is to help you get there.

See? Way better. Way better. How I do that is by all these other things. Right. And what I am is a entrepreneurial coach, or what I am as a. Whoever you're talking to at that moment. But it starts with what you believe. And if you're looking for people that are looking to do something amazing in their own world. Amazing. Right. And don't know how to get there and feel like they're trapped.

Mm.

And your why, like we talked about, is to challenge that thought. Who says you can't do this? Who says you can't have the impact you thought you could? Yeah, that makes sense.

Absolutely. Thank you.

And that's where your why, how, and what did Dan take you through? Your how and what?

Yeah.

So what's your how?

Well, he did. I have them right here. So, of course, making sense of the complex is my how big surprise, and my what Even bigger surprise is helping to contribute to others success.

Yep.

Big surprise. I went into disaster relief first.

So what you just said with your why, how, and what is exactly the summary of our entire conversation, because you challenge the way things are done. You figure out solutions to big problems that people think are big, and you grab their hand and help them do it, contribute to them. Right. So whatever that is, if it's the imposter syndrome, let's challenge that there even is such a thing or that it's going to limit you.

You.

Let's figure out what it is that actually is limiting you, and then let's see how we can go have a bigger impact when you're outside of the limiting factor.

Yep, exactly. Yeah.

And so the better able you are to articulate that, the less you'll get stuck on what you're doing or how you're going to do it.

This is what I'm going to do for you. Okay. How do you know that's what I want? How do you know that's what I need? Right. It allows you to real quickly get to the essence of why should I choose Veronica to help me move forward? That makes sense.

It absolutely does. And it's all the things that I know, but it's easier to do for clients than it is to do for yourself, so I appreciate you doing it to me.

Well, that's when you know their why, how, and what, it becomes really crystal clear. Right. So I know the language that you speak now. I know the conversations that you're having. So I know how to create a program or a plan or to actually help you get past those, because I know the way you think it speeds the process. Yes. Speeds the process. Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. I'm glad we got to connect. If there's a way that we can help you, if there's a way you feel that the why could work with what you're doing, just let us know. We'd love to.

Oh, definitely. Yeah. Dan and I had a great conversation about how it can fit into my coaching, and I'm quite enthused. So love you guys, for sure. Thank you. And just a reminder that Simon Sinek was an anthropologist.

I love that. That is great. And I can imagine that you are a lot of fun to hang out with.

Well, thank you. Yeah. Maybe someday we'll have that chance. I really hope so.

My wife has the why of challenge, so I know what it's like to hang out with you.

Yeah. You have fun every day, don't you?

Yes, I do.

And those fights are pretty fun, too, aren't they?

No, they're not. No. There is no filter. Well, I'd love your perspective on this. This is probably half the stuff we should have put on the podcast, which I guess we still could.

Yeah. You're still recording.

Still recording. Here's one of the things I've noticed about people with the why of challenge is, and maybe this isn't you, but it's definitely my wife and a lot of other people with that why that I know. And sometimes I don't feel like people with the why of challenge have a sense of the way they said something in that it can come off a little bit aggressive, where they don't even know it. Hey, I'm just talking. We're just talking here. And I say, well, that wasn't really just talking conversation. That was a little bit more Than just talking. What do you mean? I was just talking? We were just having a conversation. Yeah, that wasn't really a conversation. I don't know if those kinds of conversations ever happened with you.

No. It certainly sounds familiar in my own relationship, but I found that one can turn it off or at least tone it down. So if I'm being intentional about it, like I am, you know, on this interview, if I'm doing a speech, if I'm talking to a client, there's a bit of a switch that I'm able to flip in order to be a little bit more intentional with my words, because I'm smart enough to be able to do that. But, yeah, when you're tired and when the filter's off, sometimes you just.

The words come out and you're like, oh, wow, I had that didn't mean to sound like that.

Yeah, it would be interesting to ask your partner and say, okay, who is an explainer?

So that's fun, too.

Dan and I talked about that because his wife, I think, is also somebody who really wants to make sense and he's a challenge. But, yeah, I found that even as a challenge as well, sometimes challenging in the argument, rather than being a team member in the arguments, is not where it should be. Even though the intention is to continue to argue as a team member.

How do you feel? Do you feel like you would make a good employee?

I've had one corporate position, and I was only an employee at that company for four months, and they promoted me. So I went from executive assistant to director of an entire department. And because of that, I think I had the latitude that I was comfortable with at age, I didn't know what I had within me and what I was capable of. So at 23, it was the right position for me. But, yeah, I don't think I'd be a very good employee anymore. Especially I've been an entrepreneur for over a decade. Yeah, I know what freedom feels like. And I don't know. You're not going to tell me what to do.

That's right. Or show up on time or do it this way or.

No, I will show up on time because I want to respect you. But if you lose my respect, let.

Me ask you something. Is it more important that you help me? Do you feel more successful when you've been able to help me or when I trust you?

When I help you.

When you help me. Okay.

When I help you? Yeah, absolutely. Because I'll help somebody in the grocery store. They don't know me. Do they trust Me, I don't know. But us to help them.

Okay. Okay. Perfect. Well, thank you for being here and have a great time in Berlin, however long that is. And I'm excited for you. You did what you wanted to do, and you're making it happen. That is a lot to be said for that.

You are as well.

I am as well, yes. I retired from dentistry about a month and a half ago.

Yay.

Yes. I finally. It's such a relief to not be in that box that I was in. My brother has the why of right way, and he's very structured and very rigid and particular about everything, but it takes a lot creativity out of you.

Yeah. For sure.

When you're put in that situation. And so I had a lot of years of just kind of. All right, I'll do it.

Yeah.

Walking the walk, not the passion for it. Now I'm just. Every day's awesome.

Congratulations.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you. Yeah, I'll go ahead and hop off. I know my partner's waiting for me, so I really appreciate it, and I can't wait to hear the episode.

It's going to be awesome.

Thank you so much.

So it's time for the new segment, which is guess the why. And this week, we are going to guess the why of Madonna. Madonna. What do you all think the why of Madonna is? I have what I think. But if you had to guess, of the nine whys, which why would Madonna be? And I think Madonna has the same why as our guest today, Veronica, which is challenge. She didn't follow any rules. She didn't do it the way anybody else does, is she did her own thing, beat to her own drum at every age, including now. I'm sure she's just doing it her own way, and that's what allowed her to be so successful, so different, so fearless, create things that we'd never seen before. And that is why I think Madonna's why is challenge. So let us know what you think. So thank you for listening. If you have not yet discovered your why, you can do so@whyinstitute.com, use the code PODCAST50 and you'll get it at half price. If you love the beyond, you'd why Podcast, Please don't forget to subscribe. Leave us a review and a rating on whatever platform you're using so that our podcast gets heard by more people. Because our goal is to help 1 billion people discover, live, and make decisions based on their why. Have a great week. Thank you for being here.

I really hope you enjoyed today's episode and that through today's guest, you heard how important it is to know your why and how impactful it can be in your life and the lives of those around you. Be sure to head over to whyinstitute.com and discover your why today. Remember, the more you know about yourself, the more you'll know about others. I'm Dr. Gary Sanchez, and I'll see you on the next episode.