Nice Guys Finish First - From Bus Boy to CEO

Welcome to beyond you'd why podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gary Sanchez. At the why Institute, we've helped over 40,000 people discover, make decisions and connect using their why. This show will be much more powerful for you once you know your own why. So head over to whyinstitute.com and discover your why. Today you're going to meet one of the leaders who've discovered their why with us and is going to share share their story and the powerful lessons they've learned.

If you're a regular listener, you know that every week we talk about one of the nine whys and then I bring on somebody with that why so we can see how their why has played out in their life. Now today we're going to be talking about the why of Contribute to contribute to a greater cause, make a difference, add value, or have an impact in the lives of others. Now, individuals with this why yearn to be part of a greater cause, something greater than themselves. They don't want to be the cause, rather they want to contribute to it in a meaningful way. They want to make a difference in the lives of others, in an organization or in a cause that they believe in. They love to support and relish the success of the greater good, the company's growth and the victory of the team. People with this why seek to add value in all they do, do their part and help in whatever way possible. They're often found behind the scenes looking for ways to make the world a better place. When they show up in a more public forum, it is often to trumpet a message or support a movement. People with this why are go to people, the ones you look for when you need help with just about anything. They make reliable and committed teammates and are often found in all areas of athletics, performing arts and cause based nonprofits. Virtually every organization must have contributors in order to operate successfully. They act as the glue that holds everyone else together. They use their time, energy, resources and connections to add value to other people. Now I've got a great guest for you, one of my good friends. His name is Mark Herman. So whether in the office making stuff happen or exploring the outdoors with his family, Mark continuously is continuously on the go. After high school, Mark got a summer job at Dion's and never left. He started his management career serving as a General manager and then grew with the company to hold positions of Operations Manager.

Vice President of Store Operations, and now Chief Executive Officer. Mark is known for his improvements to customer service and employee satisfaction while keeping costs low. He helps to build a culture of High expectations, trust and empowerment. He is committed to maintaining Dion's value while growing the company and providing growth opportunities for employees. Mark holds an economics degree from the University of New Mexico and he is a member of Vistage and Leadership New Mexico. Mark, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, Gary. I appreciate that. Good to be here.

Hey, so there's a lot of listeners all over the world that have no idea what Dion's is. So why don't you tell them a little bit about Dion's?

Sure. So Dion's is a pizza restaurant primarily based in Albuquerque, New Mexico. There are 24 restaurants in New Mexico, West Texas and in Colorado. And we'll do about $75 million in revenue this year. And that puts us as one of the top three busiest per unit pizza restaurants in the United States. So we only have pizza, salads and sandwiches, no alcohol or anything. We're a very high volume, family friendly place, very high quality food at a low price. Really what we try to do is not only serve our customers with our food, but serve our employees with great jobs, great first time job opportunities for young people, and help them on their way to other things. We're very much about kind of giving to the community in two ways, one in the food and another in the employment.

So, you know, if I had just heard that in my mind, I would probably be thinking about a little pizza joint, you know, a little strip mall kind of thing. But that has. That's nothing like what a Dion's is like.

Yeah, we have larger restaurants, so think, you know, 5, 6,000 square feet, seat 150 or so. And we do about an even mix of takeout and dine in. So people come in, bring their families in. We have very open seating, very flexible. So you can have a small business meeting with one or two people, or you can bring a soccer team or a football team for a celebration. We do have drive throughs, which is also unique. And we do about 40% of our volume is takeout done through drive thru windows.

So when I was in high school, so that was back in late 70s, Dion's had one restaurant and that was my favorite place to go. And I always order the same thing. I would get a piece of cheese pizza with green chili on it. That's all I.

Well, green chili still, you know, probably our number besides pepperoni. Pepperoni may be number one, but in New Mexico, green chili is probably the number two topping. And our favorite pizza by far that we sell is pepperoni and green chili and of course with a side of ranch dressing.

So you were missing something in your bio there.

What's that?

You were missing where you started because you started as a busboy, right?

That's right. Essentially, I started the same way everybody starts at Dion's. I got a summer job and thought I'd work there for a few months. And I learned to answer the phones, clean tables, eventually learned to make food. Then I went off to school in Colorado, and I would come back and work summers. And when I got my degree, I thought I would get a real job. I would go off and do something in the world of finance or something like that. And when I did that, I got into a sales job selling insurance and investments, and it just wasn't a good fit for me at all. And, of course, with my. Why, it makes sense. So I ended up going back to work at Dion's while I thought I'd figure out what I wanted to do with my life. And it turned out that the two guys that founded the company.

Saw something in me, and they gave me an opportunity and said, hey, we want you to manage a store for us. And while I thought I would do that for a year, what I learned during that year is that I could make a difference in people's lives. I can make a difference with young people. I would spend extra time with my employees, working side by side, asking how they were doing, how they were doing in school, how their home life was. And I would make these connections with people. And what I got back from that were employees who were really motivated, really dedicated. And so, consequently, my restaurant performed really well. So I got accolades for that. And that's really what got me tied into what I do every day, you.

Know, so from an outsider's perspective.

It seems like the employees at Dion's love what they're doing. You know, you go into some restaurants and they look miserable, and they just. You could tell they can't wait to get out of there. And they're just scruffy and, you know, not. Well, it's just not. You can just tell they're not happy with what they're doing. But if you go into an in and out burger, if you go into a Chick Fil A, they have a different look and feel to them, which is what I see in Dion's as well.

Yeah, that's. That's. Those are great models for. For what we try to do. So part of it is who we hire. You know, we tend to hire outgoing young people. Sometimes companies will go and find the. The young person who's at home with nothing to do but play video games. What we found is, let's go hire the motivated ones. Now, the motivated ones are busy with, you know, band or sports or other things, and they also want to work. So we work around their schedules to get those highly motivated young people. And once you get them in an environment where you trust them, where you believe in them, and you treat them as adults, they blossom.

Wow. And so you started back in the 80s, right?

Right. I started in 1987.

1987. Did you have any idea you'd still be with Dion's?

No, not.

Not at all.

Back in 1987, you know, I just seen that, the first edition of the movie Wall street, and I wanted to be that guy. I wanted to be the guy out, you know, making. Making all the money, doing the big deals.

And of course, that kind of salesmanship's not at all I am or what I would be good at.

No. So what did your parents think when you said, mom, dad, I just got done with, I'm leaving school and finishing and going to be working, running a pizza joint?

They thought I was crazy. They thought, wait a minute, we wanted you to, you know, go to law school or go to medical school or do something, you know, like you were supposed to do for mom and dad. They didn't get it. Yeah.

Because you went to the Albuquerque Academy.

Right.

Which is a prep school. College prep school.

Right.

Which is where I went.

My parents worked very hard. You know, my dad was an engineer and drove a 1972 Volkswagen Beetle, like, saved as much as he could to make sure that me and my brother and sister could go to a private school. So I think their idea of, hey, wait, we sacrificed all that and you're just going to run a restaurant? You know, that didn't line up for them. But, you know, over the years now, they've changed their tunes some.

Yeah. How long did it take you to get from coming back after college to get to CEO?

Well, it was a long journey, but also along that way, had a lot of opportunities. So, you know, when I started managing a store, essentially was January of 92, and became CEO at the end of 2013. So it's quite a long time in between there. But I also had the opportunity to. To manage one store, manage a group of stores, learn about how to manage hr, how to manage marketing, finance, and accounting. So it was kind of this continuous movement and learning opportunity along the way that got me here.

So you had two guys that started it, and they were involved. When did they start it? And then when did they turn it over to you. And what was that like? Take us through that day where they said, okay, Mark, this is your baby now. Or however that went.

Yeah. So that process, they started, the two guys, John Patton and Bill Scott, and moved to Albuquerque from Michigan, and they started Beyonds originally with the idea of it being a Greek restaurant. That didn't work out. Luckily, a guy taught him how to make pizza, so that's a whole other story. But that worked out, and they stayed highly involved in the company until just after the time they put me in the CEO seat. But that process of moving to CEO was an interesting one for me because, you know, as you describe in the contribute, why.

People with this. Why often are behind the scenes. And I think most of my career was spent building, growing the culture and the organization from behind the scenes. And I credit one mentor in particular with helping me see myself not just as that number two. So he's a guy named Michael Mack, who is the founder of Garden Fresh Restaurants, which people might know as Sweet Tomatoes. And I had the opportunity to meet him at one point, and then about a year or two later, this would have been 2012 or so, I called him up and said, hey, Michael, I'm trying to work my way into the CEO role for Dion's, and I could use a mentor and I could use some help. And his first response to me was, well, Mark, that sounds great, but I don't have that much time, so can't do it. And he said, but.

I'll give you one hour of my time. And so we set up a phone call, and it was an hour that has meant the world to me. So when I had that chance, had that hour, I talked with Michael about.

Where Dion's was in its development, where I was in my development, and what I thought I needed in order to get the CEO role. But the real question that he asked me that was kind of changed the direction for me was he said, mark, tell me about the relationship you have with the founders. And as I described that relationship, he said, okay, now if they hire someone from the outside, tell me about how that person would interact with them. What I realized was my relationship with them was one of support. And they made the final call, and I supported them. And I might bring up ideas, but it was still kind of, they're here and I'm here. And when he had me describe the difference in relationship to someone who might come in and really become the next leader, it was, hey, we're equals. And it was that time that the light bulb Went on and said, I've got to change how I interact with these guys. I've got to stop seeing myself as someone who carries out the marching orders of the company, but someone who really is involved in the planning, the leading, and the direction that the company is moving in. And from that point forward, I really focused on one, going to the founders and saying, look, I want to be the next CEO. If you have things you want me to do, tell me what to do. But that's my plan. And from that day forward, I worked hard at it. And I think both of the founders would tell you today that in that last year and a half, two years, they saw the shift. And when it was time to do an investment in finance steel, they said, you were the natural choice we not only trusted, but we thought was ready to take it on.

So you said the first step was, I want it. Decide you want it.

Where did you.

What was the next step? From there, take us through the steps that you went through mentally. One, you went to them and say, guys, I want this.

Yes, I want it. So the first thing, you know, first question there is, hey, if you think I'm missing a part of that, tell me what that is so I can work on it. And they said, well, we would ask you to work even more on your command of the finances. So that was my one kind of takeaway from them. The second piece was working with the team around me and helping them understand that I was shifting into the role of kind of chief decision maker. And again, that was one more born out of my own how I dealt with things than it was people giving me permission to do it. I just started leading differently. I started to make more decisions without talking to the founders, doing more on my own. I brought in a couple new pieces to how we manage people on our team. One was a top grading, how we look at evaluating our talent and making sure we're having honest conversations with people to upgrade the quality of people we had in our management at the time. Just taking bigger risks, I guess, is probably the best way to say it. I want it. What do I need? Take more risks.

Yeah.

You know, and if someone were to ask me to describe you, I would say, man, what a nice guy. Just the nicest guy you could meet. And so. And I'm sure you get described. You get a lot of people describe you that way.

Absolutely.

Which, you know, you hear nice guys finish last. Right, Right. And maybe for a time it felt that way.

And so how do you. How have. So you've gone from Nice guys finish last to nice guys finish first.

That's right. And it can work that way too.

I'm sorry. Yeah, that could work. And what do you attribute it to? That one hour or other things?

You know, that's probably attributable to a lot of things. I think, you know, from the very early days of, of John and Bill believing in me, because I think I was looking for that in my life. And that might be something that those of us with a contribute why look for is, hey, when other people believe in me, it just energizes me. But growing as a person, going through some things, you know, in the work life and in the personal life, that just helped me see I don't need other people to believe in me. Really. If I have that belief in myself, I can really take on a lot more.

Is there a turning moment where you learn that? Is there a specific point where you can say, ah.

That'S when it switched for you?

I think there have been a number of moments for me like that. You know, I led our one failed. The only time Dion's has opened a store and had it fail and close was in Salt Lake City, Utah. And I led that.

That's comforting project. So you learn a piece there and you realize, hey, something can break and I can move past that. I think going through my own process of marriage and divorce, from a personal life standpoint, when you get through something like that and realize, hey, this isn't what I had pictured, but I came out the other side of it. I'm a smarter person for it. I'm a more compassionate person for it. I'm a better person for it. That gives me the strength to go forward and say, yeah, I can be in a position now where I'm going to call the shots. And sometimes I'm going to get them right, sometimes I'm going to get them wrong. But as long as we're doing things with good intention and taking care of people, it's going to work out.

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You know, as you mentioned and I talked about at the beginning, people with the why of contribute often feel like they should be in the background helping others do better. But when you put somebody with the why I've contributed in a leadership role, they do extremely well. The most successful person I've ever worked with, both financially as well as relationship wise, has the why of contribute. And why do you think that that why is so beneficial for leadership?

I think for me, the advantage it gives me is I love getting participation from my team because I want to contribute to them as individuals and also have them contribute to the organization. I spent a lot of time getting their input. So when we make a decision, when I make a decision general, the team has had a chance to get involved. And so the CEO of Porsche through the late 80s was a guy named Peter Schutz. And one of the things he said to live by in terms of management was decide democratically but implement dictatorially. So by getting my team's input, we have this democratic decision making process so that when we go out to execute, we execute at a high level because you don't have all the questions. And well, I wasn't going to do it that way or we should have thought of this. And so I think that's one of the key ways someone with a contribute y can really rally a team and get their buy in and support so then you can go execute.

And you know what else I've noticed that's really good? I like to decide democratically, implement dictatorially. Is that what it was? Yeah, yeah, I really like that. And one of the things I noticed about people with the YF contribute is that they're really good at making the people around them better, helping them do better so that the entire organization does better. So it's not so much about me, it's about me, right?

Yeah. And I think something unique about that too is the founders were entrepreneurial. I think things to some degree had to be about them. When an organization gets to a certain size, I think it's damaging. If it's about that one person, you outgrow that. And I think that's been the shift we've gone through here.

Wow. So when you took Dion's over, what was the size of it and what was going on there? And then what's it like today?

So we were, when I took over, we had, I think about 15 locations. So we've added nine more. Sales wise, we were around 45 million. We'll do about 75 million. So we haven't quite doubled in that timeframe, but we've grown pretty substantially.

And your number one thing Is what, What's your number one? What does everybody come and order? Because you have a, you have pizza, you have salads, sandwiches, subs, all kinds of stuff. I'm not a huge menu, but a good size menu. Number one thing people want.

Is that pepperoni.

Green chili pizza with ranch dressing.

That is number one. And ranch. You know, we're as well known for ranch dressing as we are for anything.

Yeah. And what, which is your favorite? What's the new ranch that just came out?

Green chili ranch. Although, you know, we've been getting a lot of input and, you know, maybe we're gonna start testing a Chipotle ranch sometime soon too. So.

So from people that don't live in New Mexico, the thought of green chili probably just, they're like, what, what are you talking about? How could you have green chili in your pizza? And even worse, how could you have it in your ranch?

Yeah, well, you know, here in New Mexico, it's just something that comes with growing up here.

You know, we eat green chili on eggs, we eat green chili on burgers, we eat green chili on pizza. We eat green chili on just about everything. A little bit of spice, not too hot, but just the right amount of kick goes with everything.

So I remember I was with you one night and I think we were sitting having a drink at Ruth Chris, and you turned to me and you said, there's going to be a story on the news coming up about us or something like that. There was a big, big problem that was coming and it was going to be on the news. And sure enough, there it was.

And what happened, we had in, in 2017, we had a. What you might call a public health crisis. So we had, we had a food processing facility that we operate.

Have a positive listeria test. Now at the time, we weren't exactly sure what that was going to mean, but it was really one of the greatest wake up calls the company has ever had. So we had the ability to respond to that, learn from it, come out better for it. And in the long run, what's happened is the FDA has come out, they've come out with a whole new set of guidelines, and we were the first place in the state of New Mexico to receive their new inspection. And they said, we wanted to start with you guys because we know you're doing it better than everybody else. You're an example to the state. They recommended us to the local health departments as an example. So it's one of those cases where what was a short term crisis actually turned out to be Something that has really helped us along the way.

So what? You know, be a little more specific. Wasn't it the ranch dressing or what? Was.

Wasn't the ranch dressing, but it was in the same facility. Okay. In the process of having to shut down and decontaminate and then retrofit equipment and things, we ended up having to shut the whole building down for a little while, which did cause later on, our ranch production to be out for a little while. So it was a little snowball effect that we learned a lot from.

When you guys ran out of ranch. So for those of you that don't live here, you would think that if a restaurant runs out of ranch dressing, who the heck cares, right? So what? But when you guys ran out of dressing. Dion's are very popular restaurants here. And how many are here in Albuquerque?

We have 14 in the metro area.

Yes, 14 in Albuquerque. So when you guys ran out of dressing, that was on the news, right?

Yeah, it made. When we ran out of ranch dressing, it made all three major news stations. When we rolled out our green Chile ranch, we also made all the news stations. People were driving from Phoenix, Dallas, to come get ranch dressing when we announced that green chili ranch.

And so you turned a really ugly, potentially business closing situation. And somehow it ended up, I remember you telling me, somehow it ended up being a big positive, even financially, didn't.

It, in the end? Yeah. I mean, it certainly was a downturn for a short while. But again, we learned so much through that process. And then we were able to build off of that by introducing the Green Chile Ranch. We're just so fortunate that our customers believed in us the whole time. So it turned out to be a great learning experience. And I have to say, during this current coronavirus time, having gone through crisis has meant as a management team, we've been much better prepared this time to keep our cool, not panic, make solid decisions, take care of our employees, take care of our customers. And, you know, we're certainly not making it big during this, but we're holding our own. And that's. I give a lot of credit to having been through some crisis before.

So how do you handle crisis now from a contribute perspective? Next crisis comes. How do you see it? How do you handle it? What do you do?

So steps. I've kind of been building a little process around this. So I call it survive, evolve, thrive. So step one is that survive step, you gotta pause and say, okay, what is this threat and what are the potential consequences? So in this case, we built, you bring the team together get as many heads as you can in the room. And we built different scenarios out. So if this happens, here's the decision we might have to make. If this next thing happens, if it gets even worse all the way through, what happens if we have to close down for a while and you build out those scenarios, you get input.

And then it helps. You say, okay, now we can just take a breath and let's start to watch what's happening. And we're going to make the decisions based on these buckets that we made.

Then if you can get through that first part of it, that survive phase, then we start talking. And this is what we're doing now is we're talking about how we're evolving. So working from home, we're still hiring employees, so we've gotten much better at how to do phone and video interviews to select employees as an example. That's probably something we're going to continue after this. It may be a better way than we've been doing it. More cost effective, faster. So we're going to evolve in those ways. We've learned some things about delivery. We added delivery to our stores that didn't have it, which was big for us. That also made the news, which was cool. We didn't have to promote it. It got promoted for us. But all these things that we're doing are helping us evolve as a company. And our goal now is to start to work on what I call the thrive piece. Take all these processes and changes, take what we think the consumer and the employees are going to expect of us in the future, and let's figure out how to thrive. You know, oftentimes we talk to managers about leading, being, playing a game, and there's rules to the game. And once you understand the rules, you figure out how to win. And the rules have shifted on us now. So let's talk about what do we think the new rules are going to be and what's the new way of winning at that game? So that's the thrive piece for us. So we're already talking about opportunities that may come our way or new challenges. All those things we can do to thrive once this thing is over. Wow.

Yeah. I didn't even know you had those three steps. I just was curious as to how you handle that. Because when we were together and it looked like it was going to be this big to do and a big on the news and everybody knows people are talking about it, you were as calm as I as you could be. It wasn't like you were freaked out or, you know, ready to jump off a cliff or anything like that. You were just very calm about it. Hey, you know, something's going to come up on the news here in the next few minutes.

Well, you know, I like to think of it like they talk about a duck. You know, you watch a duck just gently cruise along on the water, but underneath, it's just like this. You know, I operate that way a lot.

I can imagine. All right, so people are listening to this, and they're thinking, how do they go from one restaurant to the multiples that you guys have done? And so what do you think has been the secret to your success?

I think the secret to growing restaurants and growing a business in that way is in a lot of ways, the leader having the ability to set the vision, hire the right people, but also to get out of the way. What I see when most people come to me and say, hey, Mark, I've got one or two restaurants, and I like to grow that. Almost always the problem in their growth is that they're the control freak. The owner is the one person making every decision, and that confines the growth. So set the vision, hire people, and trust them to do more is what really allows that. Next step, once you get there, it's about setting up processes, guidelines. We've spent a lot of time over the years building our culture, building our values, which we call the decision guidepost for our people. So everybody in our company knows our five values, and that's their framework to make independent decisions so they don't always have to ask their boss.

So you guys create processes that make other people better.

Yeah, absolutely.

And then we go get feedback from those people. The people who best know how to run the company or best know what's going on with it are the ones on the front lines.

And you don't seem scared about getting feedback.

No, I don't. I. In a sense, I don't know how to operate without it. You know, I want to know what's going on. My number one question when I go into one of our stores is, is there anything that I can do to take an obstacle out of the way for you? Is there any problem you're having that I can help make better, make your job easier? And that's how I learned the most and how I learned how to run the company?

And that's totally a contribute why right there.

Yeah.

And what's the craziest answer you've gotten?

You know, for the most part, you'd think we'd get lots of crazy answers. We don't get a ton. You know, we'll get people who want to add stuff to the menu. Hey, we should have beer. Hey, we should have burgers. Hey, we should, you know, deliver all these different things. But for the most part.

People either come up with something.

Kind of normal or they come up with stuff that's kind of an extension of what we already do.

Okay.

Or they come up with something that is kind of way out there. Like, you know, what we really need is we need a balloon.

You know, we'll have that conversation. I'll ask them why they're thinking that or what their. Where their idea came from. And some of their ideas end up being, you know, brilliant, Brilliant new things that we can do too. So you get an employee that says, hey, Mark, I've been thinking. We hand write all of our guest checks still. Everything's done by hand. He said, you know, one of the problems with that is nobody knows how to write anymore. So why anybody know how to write anymore? Because we don't write in school anymore either. We type everything. So it's really employees giving that kind of feedback that have us right now upgrading our entire point of sale system. But it comes from that real world application of the employee.

Wow, that's a great way to do it. Well, let's change gears a little bit because I know you're on a new path outside of work and a very, very long, long, arduous path that I wouldn't doing. You're into like what, ultra marathons, right? Or ultra. What is it?

I have, I have been. Yeah, I've been doing some ultra marathoning. Really? Only one true ultra, but I've been running trail running more and more, and it is fantastic. It's been a really good discipline for me to learn as well. And I would put along with that something you and I haven't talked about is I find myself more and more aligning as a. As a stoic. I've been reading some stoic philosophy, and you combine that with ultra marathoning and this idea of how do I get the most out of myself, whether it's in a run or in developing people, but how do I go about just ethically, morally doing the best I can do every day? That's been. It's been an interesting journey and running's certainly a part of that.

So, you know, I could see saying, yeah, I think we'll go run a couple miles, maybe I'll train for a 10k. But how far is an ultra marathon or an ultra marathon?

So they can Be different distances, but essentially it's anything over a marathon. So, you know, some of them are 50 kilometers, 100 kilometers, 50 miles, 100 miles. I think people even do things up to a couple hundred miles, but I don't think I'll get that far. I did the Mount Taylor 50K this past fall. Great experience. I thought since I had run a couple marathons, I thought, this won't be that hard. I kind of know how to do this. And I realized that a mountain ultra, totally different beast running 26 miles on a, on a paved road.

So did you finish?

I did finish, yeah. I even beat my goal time and made some new friends along the way. The first thing the guys, the guys told me, I went to a couple of training runs he had. These guys have been doing these runs for years. And I said, hey, it's my first one. What's your number one piece of advice? And what I got told over and over again is, okay, Mark, when you think you're going really, really slow on this ultra marathon, I said, yeah, slow down. That was their advice. And it really had to, they had to teach me that it was about finishing, not about winning.

Because those things, it's just a long way. You're burning a lot of calories if you're not eating enough, if you're not drinking enough, and if you're taking stuff too fast, you won't finish. So.

So how many times did you feel like quitting? Um, how many. What was it like halfway through when you knew you had another 15 miles to go? What, what happens in your head as you're going on a 50 mile or 50k run?

I think the, the run, for me, race day wasn't as bad. It's the training, the training was awful. And you know, doing training miles at first of 15 miles and then of 20 miles, 22 miles and, and you know, going up 4,000ft in elevation gain on some of those runs and, and really pushing your body to the limits and making the mistakes. So running too fast or not taking enough water with me and the amount of pain that some of those training runs caused.

Certainly made me question whether I was capable of doing this, of finishing. But I kept coming back to the confidence those other runners had given me on, hey, if you do these things, if you drink well, eat well, slow down, you'll finish. By race day, I felt, I felt ready to go. So walking, walking through a training run. Excuse me, Walking home after a training run and it got into my house and I just run 17 miles and my Legs hurt, hurt more than they've ever hurt in my entire life. So bad that I ended up, I just laid down on the cement outside my house for about 30 minutes. I couldn't move. I thought, oh my God, I'm stuck. My legs won't move anymore.

Those are the days you question, why am I doing this?

And if 17 miles did that to me, what's 30 miles going to do?

Right. Exactly. What's doing that twice going to do?

Oh, my gosh. So what did you. What's the biggest thing you learned about yourself going through the training and completing an ultramarathon?

I think the biggest thing I learned through that process is get more advice from other people. I often, while I'm a contributor in general, when I take on a task, I often have the feeling that I've got to do it for the team or I've got to take care of it myself. So I learned better to ask for help for myself.

Ask for help for help for somebody that's already been there.

Yeah, exactly.

Do you think it's what part of leadership, of doing well do you believe is self awareness?

Well, you know, I think there's beyond any kind of innovation unless I come up with the greatest new idea. I think almost all of it is self awareness and self development related. You know, every job I've had along the way, every opportunity I've had, it's that learning, that figuring out how to do it better, it's all been about self awareness.

So you got to know where you're starting in order to know where to go. How important is it to know your why during all that?

The why, it's great to know because the why has given me a basis for understanding how I do best and understanding how we interact with people. Being able to explain it to my team, hey, this is my why. It's contribute. I'm going to use this very participative style of leadership.

That'S helped them join the cause also, and it has spread throughout our culture as well. So we have a very participative culture. And it really comes from my why. And being able to name it means I can teach it to people. When you can teach it to people, then they can go out and work on it too.

That's awesome. I couldn't say that any better. And I'm sure they see it in you and now they know what it is.

Yeah, exactly. So they can ask me questions or they can even occasionally push me on it too. Hey, I know you want to contribute, but we could really use you to just name it right now. Good feedback. Here's what I want.

Thanks for the feedback. Thanks for sharing.

Right? Exactly.

Well, Mark, man, thank you so much for being here. I know you're busy. I know you got lots and lots going on over there and you probably need to go out for a training run here any minute as well.

Exactly.

I appreciate you taking an hour and spending it with us and sharing a lot of the lessons that you've learned and how you can contribute in the way that you do because everybody sees it and feels it and it comes through in your stores.

Thank you. I appreciate that and thank you for the opportunity. And I appreciate how you. You have helped me discover my why and be able to use it more effectively. So great to be on and hope to be able to do more in the future.

Sounds great. We'll go grab a beer soon. All right.

Thanks, Gary.

Thanks, Mark.

Thanks for listening to today's show. But before you go, let me ask you a question. Would you like all of your communication to be easier and more productive? Take the essential first step to clarity now@yinstitute.com I'll catch you on the next episode.