Ep 11: WTH ?!? Break the Mold with Dr. Jill Crista

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Now here's your host, Dr. Eckel. Alright, welcome back everybody is Dr. Greg Eckel and what the Health podcast where we are promoting health care to promote thriving. I've got a great guest, old friend and dear colleague of mine, Dr. Jill Christa, who who has an amazing background behind her. Today she's a naturopathic doctor, best selling author, nationally recognized mold expert, has an upcoming book coming out on leave on tbi. Is that right?

On Pandas and Pandas and pans.

Has Pandas and pans. Her break the mold book though is an amazing read and we're going to get all kinds. We're going to get into that here in a moment and we're going to We've got five tools to conquer mold and take back your health. I got the chance to read that. I love supporting and actually being educated by my colleagues and friends and we've had the pleasure of really mind melding over this last year as well. This is such an important topic. I want to know. You wrote about your personal journey, which I think is so it gives you such insight to what people are struggling with. And this is one of those conditions that doctors one, we don't get really educated about this and two, it doesn't really come up on the differential. So I'm wondering if you will start out maybe sharing your journey of how you wrote this book. Dr. Christa.

You bet. So I started out in the Lyme world and I had this whole subset of patients. You know, as a naturopathic doctor, when we treat the cause, we see miracles happen. It's just amazing, you know, that people get better. And I think you, you know, from the Lyme world that the story is, oh, you're never going to get better, you're never going to get over this. And you know, using our amazing blend of conventional and naturopathic medicine, I was seeing great success. But I had this little subset of people that just weren't getting better. And in one of those patients, they found black mold in his home when they were remodeling. That was kind of my first. Huh. I thought I understood about mold that it was, you know, an allergy problem. I wonder, though, if this is what's going on with his chronic ear ringing, prostatitis, irritable bowel syndrome, neuropathies, insomnia, anxiety, you know, all of these things that I associated as a Lyme thing. And here they found black mold. And after remediating it and as I was doing research, I realized, I think this is really what's been going on for him. And that's why the Lyme has been able to persist, because the mold was wrecking his nervous system, wrecking his immune system, just making everything more inflamed. So then I tried the same principles with my other non responder Lyme patients, and they improved. So it was my big like, oh, I don't think I really understand mold. And now I think probably not very many of us do, even in our medicine. That's looking at the whole picture. So that's when I really started to delve deep into the research and just doing my own thing and working with patients and after a decade, ended up having mold in my own home. And that's so it's sneaky, you know, it's like it was a relatively new home. No one would say it smelled funky or anything. There's no funk to it, which you associate with a moldy house. You associate old building that has a funk. And that was not the case in our house. And that was my big thing of like, oh, my goodness. I also didn't understand buildings. So. And we were able to just get right on the treatment once we figured it out. And I thought, how come, you know, everyone in the world should have this knowledge? So that's what the impetus was for writing the book.

Wow. So you. So wait, let me get this right. So you're treating folks right. You've got the Lyme kind of component, and you've got a lot of folks with this chronic debilitating illness. And then subset of those folks have you discover they've got mold. And then in your own home, like, it's insidious, right. Like, it just kind of snuck up. Like, was it a new. A new home like that for you? You moved into it?

Yeah. And it was a relatively new home where there were just really severe errors in the plumbing when they built it. And it took so long for things to saturate. Thankfully, my house is the hangout house. So we would have a truck full of boys in the morning after working out, run through the showers and whatever. And so finally, that slow Leak saturated enough where the flood was, it revealed itself to us. And that's when I went, oh, my goodness. You know, I've been tired. I've been saying to myself, boy, I must be getting old. I need a nap every day. And a little bit brain fogged, actually a lot brain fogged. Kind of craving sweets, you know, just little things that were sneaking up and then started having some neuropathies. And I just attributed all to stress. And it was so interesting to see. You know, my kids also, they have chronic health issues, so nothing really was obvious. That's why I say in my book, it's that how to cook a frog thing we learned from Dr. Prinion. You know, it just kind of slowly happened because we moved in in the summer. It's gorgeous here. So we could open up all the windows. And then slowly, as it turned into winter, we slowly closed up all the windows, which slowly exposed us to the toxins. So nothing really was like, you know, it's your building. And so I think that's what can happen in occupational situations and home situations.

Geez. You know, so in that, I mean, I guess if you're. If you'll share with our listeners, like, you know, before you arrive, I mean, you're now so attuned to it, but general practitioner and or patients out there, you know, typically you go through this laundry list of differential before you get to this thought process. Right. You know, like possibly, you know, like you're saying, well, these are symptoms of stress, maybe an aging process which none of us, you know, in our field really go into agreement with, but is out there, like you're just getting old, hormone imbalances, etc. And then you wind up into more of these insidious, like, wow, it could be this. Um, so you are. I mean, you've written the book on it, which is awesome. What do you like, kind of. Those are some vague symptoms that could be a lot of different things. What other predominant things get you thinking about, like, is it mold?

The main thing that I see that you talk about, this insidious kind of thing is anxiousness. Some inner sense of unsettled. Every single one of my mold sick patients had that. So it could be I'm not doing enough, I'm not going to make enough money. You know, whatever it is, is your inner voice of doubt is it becomes very persistent. And so that inner sense, I wouldn't go as far to call it anxiety, although we, in medicine, we would refer to it as anxiety. But the way it's experienced by a multic patient is anxiousness, inner unsettled, inner amperage, where you just, you. If you get woken at night, you can't get back to sleep. So it's that kind of level of feeling unsafe in the world. And I really think that's the body telling you you're not, you know, where you're spending time you need to get out of. So that anxiousness is one thing. And combined with fatigue, so an increasing level of fatigue, that's those combination or those two things are what probably run consistent across all of my patient base. But like you said, that could be lots of different things.

Sure.

That's why I created a questionnaire. And if anybody wants a PDF copy of the questionnaire, they can just email me from my website and we're happy to share it. I had to create this in practice because I was seeing a lot of lyme patients. And Dr. Horowitz has created this amazing questionnaire for Lyme, but it still wasn't catching my moldies. So I basically took his model and his inspiration and created one for. For mold that gives you some sort of a risk factor or score that can tell you whether it's pointing more arrows toward mold or not.

Awesome. Awesome. So. And we'll put that in the show notes for folks too. But that's. What is your. Go ahead and say your website. What is that?

It's drkrista.com D R C R I S T A.

Awesome. Super simple and straightforward. And you know, if you are suspicious, you know, if you're suspecting, you know, these kind of insidious signs. Take the quiz. Just take the quiz for fun.

Yeah. There's an online quiz as well. It's a shorter one and not as targeted. But if somebody's like, yeah, I'm not gonna. I'm looking at these two pages and I have too much brain fog to get that done. They can go to my website also. There's a quiz on there and they can just take. I have like a mini quiz that gives you like. Yeah, it could be mold or not. It's probably not mold. You're some perfect. Yeah.

And I'll, I'll recommend even to the providers watching this, the professionals out there get. Get her book. It's a great resource. You have a great resource section in it as well. And just to synthesize your thought process through it. One, you've been through it. Two, you've guided hundreds of people through that process. And it shows in the writing of the book. So thank you for putting that Together for us. So on this journey. So your practice, you still have. You've got the Lyme component, you've got this mold expertise, and you're seeing patients all over the place now. Yeah. With that.

Yeah, yeah. So now I do consultations all over the world, and I'm not seeing patients one on one in private practice, like, no, no new patients, because that once you write a book, you tend to get a little busy.

Sure.

Yeah. So my intention was like, I'm teaching you to fish. Here you go. You can do it all. And then people are like, yeah, but I want.

We want you.

Yeah. But I hope that it is something that, you know, it's, it's. I spent a lot of time creating a practitioner course, and I just distilled everything into the book in the most simple way so people can take the information they don't have to have a doctor, because that's the other thing. We don't have enough practitioners that know this. So my primary focus was a practitioner course so I could teach other doctors how to manage it. I don't know about you, but it's disappointing to me to hear the messages associated with mold that's really negative and heavy and like, you're never gonna get over it. You're never gonna find a place you can live that you're gonna be safe. And yeah, that has not been my experience. It's an intense experience, but when you work a very organized plan, you can get better. The key is to get away from the mold.

That's awesome. Right? So on that, I mean, you know, you read on the extreme cases of people are having to travel out to dry areas, but you know, that you're saying and you're giving them hope is like, you know, that may not have to happen.

Right, right. I got lots of people better in humid old Wisconsin, so perfect.

You know, I'm originally from western Pennsylvania, which was Johnstown, Pennsylvania, which is the flood capital of the U.S. and you know, carrying around moldy records and old newspaper clipping, it was like ridiculous. Like, I got to get all of this out, you know. Well, so a starting spot for somebody in that differential. Right. You're. You kind of came into the mold. When do you start? When with mold. I mean, some of this, you kind of have to arrive at it. So where, where's the process? How do you start with people when, you know, they're kind of self selecting now? But back in clinical practice, you know, how did you get to that point with people?

Right. So the, the way I came to my steps of first avoidance. That's a Dr. Crinian thing. You know, the first three steps of any environmental toxin illness. Avoidance. Avoidance. Avoidance. That's how important it is. So, you know, for me, I make it one step. So avoidance and then doing the fundamentals, which is all the stuff. Our basic treatment guidelines. Get your body protected from the mycotoxins, which are mold toxins. Repair the damage from those so that you can fortify the body to fight. And then the fifth is fight mold. So they're simple steps, not necessarily simple to do. The number one step, avoidance is the hardest thing for my patients to do.

What do you find those? I mean, I'm guessing you've got. You've had people move and then they take something with them. Like that has got to get so frustrating. Do you have some guidelines for people to follow around that or. It's hard to, you know, part with family possessions, right?

Yeah, it's, you know, stuff has been some of the hardest things to, for people to part with. You know, they can leave their home if they have to. Not everybody has to leave their home. That's another thing. Like we have these sort of. If you look at any mold forum, there's all these rules and that's where I kind of want to come in as a disruptor to say, well, you know, if you're really doing a thorough remediation, then you don't necessarily have to leave your home. You know, I mean that. So starting with avoidance. But I take avoidance very seriously and I take it to the nth degree. So we're talking not just your environment, but your stuff and also dietary. So there are some dietary things that you need to get out of your diet because you're not helping your body when you have it in there. So like alcohol, mushrooms, even medicinal mushrooms when you're actively sick. Not a good idea. Fermented foods, sugars, cheeses, aged things, if you can get those things. And I do have a handout on my website if anybody wants it or if it's not, if you can't find it, just email me, I'm happy to share it. I have a no mold foods and a no mold beverages. So avoidance needs to be across the board. What you're putting in your body, what you're exposing your body to, what are your hobbies and your habits? I have one patient was a brewmaster and he had to take a break because it was just so much extra fungal burden on his body. It was just too much for him to. He would get sick every time he Would go into his brew room and he was like, oh, yeah, I think I. I think I might have some unresolved issues about beer and things. And I was like, no, it's just that you're sick from mold. Have that back when you get better.

Wow. And he's able to return. He was able to return back to his profession, right?

Well, it was a hobby.

Oh, that was a hobby. Got it.

Like, it could be taken. It could take a break. You know, I do have one case I'm working with that. That's his job, and that's still to be determined whether he got it. Go back to that. Yeah.

Wow. How about other. What's. Like, what's some odd. Do you have some odd ones that, like, kind of like, wow, that one never thought about, like, snuck in there?

Yeah, the. The. One of the oddest ones was a. We call the church lady, just because, you know, she's very. He was a church secretary. And, you know, when you have structures where most of the building and the repair is done by volunteers, it's not necessarily done to code. And they ended up having a water issue into the area where she was working. And what was strange is that the only thing that showed up for her was irritability and chronic bacterial vaginosis.

Wow.

That was it. Yeah. So, you know, of course, then when she's filling out the questionnaire, she's like, oh, yeah, well, I have that. I have that, I have that. But that stuff's manageable. I didn't need to complain about it. So it was just the classic, like, stoic person who was just gonna get through what they needed to do. And when we found out it was mold, and then I did some investigating of the, you know, is it your house? Could it be where you work? And so they found mold behind paneling in her office.

Wow.

And, you know, I mean, this was chronic bv. This was, you know, going on round and round of antibiotics. Nothing was responding. We found the mold, cleaned up the mold, got her out of the office while they did that, and then did a true mycotoxin remediation of the room. That's the other part that a lot of people don't pay attention to. And, you know, all of a sudden, her flora was able to rebalance. We, you know, treated her, obviously, for fungal overgrowth. But here, this thing that was showing up as a bacterial infection was actually a fungal infection underneath, tweaking her immune system and making her not be able to keep her own flora in balance.

Wow.

That was a weird one.

Yeah, that is. And you know, going into, you know, just chronic BV and just round after round of antibiotics, like that has so many consequences down the road to like be able to dig deeper. So I'm wondering on the investigative part for people, because I know there's controversy around, well, how do you test for. How do you test for mold? Right. And then remediation of the home around mycotoxins, like this starts to get heavy quick. Right. And I love that you've cracked this code and offering that practitioner training and then also the resources for patients too. Let's start with just on the investigative work. Do you have preferred modes? I know you've kind of put maybe the Nathan camp and Schumacher camp into the Krista camp. So, you know, like for your, for your specific way of thinking about it, what have you found works the best?

So for bodies, okay, so.

And for homes, I guess, because they're both, you know, you got to look at both. Right.

And that's what's so intimidating about this illness, is that it, it impacts your body and your. And your living space, you know, so it's a double whammy and it can be very overwhelming. So for bodies, it used to be very difficult. So I would use more like a clinical questionnaire because it was so hard to find the little things on a cbc, you know, oh, they have eosinophilia, they have, you know, a little low white count. They have natural killer cell function deficiency. So it was all sort of like out there in the nebulous area. And it is still, you know, the testing is better, but it's not golden. There's no great test, but I do utilize urine mycotoxin testing quite a bit. Great problem with that is it doesn't tell you if it's a now problem or a past problem. And that's something that blows people's mind that. Yeah, okay, I was in the moldy building in college 20 years ago. I've had chronic sinusitis that got better, but then I got asthma. And then that's managed with medication, but now I have irritable bowel syndrome and joint pain and neuropathies. And I'm saying it's from that building 20 years ago that what happens is that a sick building has biofilm and everything's trying to compete with each other. So the mold is starting to spit out these mycotoxin. They're like little gas bombs to compete out all the other critters. And they don't mean to hurt us, but we get hit in the crop crossfire. Because all that. Those toxin bombs can seep into our indoor air, and that's when we get sick. So that can turn on our own sinus and gut flora to act competitively instead of collaboratively. And that we know from medicine, if doctors are acting competitively, the patient suffers. If they're acting collaboratively, the patient benefits. It's the same thing with the flora in our body. So now you have this flora acting competitively, and that turns on danger signals, because now that's going around in your blood to the gut and to the lung tissue and to the vaginal tissue and to anything that has a mucus lining. And then you carry that with you even though you've left the moldy building. And that's just people like, wait, what?

Right.

That's crazy.

For decades. Right. I mean, it just has changed the immune system response and that. That's just continuing to go until you put the kibosh on it.

Yep. And it just goes deeper and deeper and deeper into the body in more and more destructive ways. So you feel like people say, well, I kind of grew out of my sinusitis. Well, they didn't grow out of it. They compensated around it.

Yeah.

And I say, well, how much sinus spray are you using? Oh, I only use it maybe twice a day. It's fine. And I think that's not normal. Not normal. So my job as a mold doc is to reset that balance of the flora. So one of the things you'll see in the mold world is people get put on binders to kind of bind up bile, because the bile is what carries these toxin bombs out of the body, and that's fine. But you also have to take. That's. Mycotoxins are the smoke. You have to take care of the fire, and the fire is this microbial imbalance. It has to get reset. And that's that step five of fight, because I do use copious amounts of antifungals and because when you're using plants, you can use a lot of them and not harm people.

Yeah. Awesome. But you've got that at your fifth step. Right. So, I mean, you got. You know, like, that comes at kind of the. Maybe the launching of wellness, but you've got to go through these other pieces first to get to that. And a lot of. I find a lot of folks and a lot of docs are just starting out with the binders and the treatments, but not really cleaning, clearing, and it just adds these extra layers on top.

Do more damage.

Yeah.

Mycotoxins what we have seen in studies is when you start to kill Aspergillus and aspergillus will move into the sinuses, you start to kill it, it kicks out way more mycotoxins than a happily existing Aspergillus. You don't really want to poke the bear. You know, it's like at first, get in there and make sure. Can your liver handle it when it starts to feel threatened and spit out a bunch more mycotoxins? If not, if you're already chemically sensitive and you have food sensitivities, we've got to get your liver healthy and your gut stronger so you can handle what's going to come down the pike.

Yeah. Awesome. It is. So the more we know, the more I realize we don't know. And just on these complexities of, you know, the triggering events and how they all layer on top of each other, I mean, it is so fascinating. And, you know, everybody unfolds differently too, you know. Well, how about. So that was on the body front, so how about on the home front? Like. Or a business front? Like, I know. You know, like, do you have a network of people you like or specific testing that you recommend? Because it's not all the same. You know, I have a. A case in point. A patient with a chronic mold issue here in Portland with new construction. And, you know, the builders did it wrong. And I mean, you know, really spun her out for chronic health issue. And, you know, they're saying, well, we remediated it fine, and she still has mold issues. Right, right.

So the one in three remediations in my area need to be redone. Wow. Because they don't take enough material. And if you think about it, there, a lot of the remediators are under pressure from insurance to keep it as cost effective as possible. And they're in these heavy, hot hazmat suits. And if you go in and say, I want you to remove that material instead of spray it with something, they're not going to be really happy with you. But you have to do that. It's just like skin cancer. You have to get all the affected material plus a clean border. Otherwise it comes back and it will. So the standard of care is removal of any affected material within reason. If it's a structural component, then you have to find other ways to remediate it. In my house, in the situation, there were two support beams that we couldn't remove.

Oh, wow.

And one of them was rotted, so we had to plane off the rotten part, then reinforced with A steel beam. And so when we planed it off, what we ended up doing was getting rid of the sick material. But I'm sure we left some microscopic mold in there. So then it's, you know, then topically treating it with 15% peroxide. I love essential oils, so I threw some of those in there. Yeah. Now we just tried to. The reason why I love essential oils is they not only kill the mold, but they also neutralize mycotoxins.

Oh, wow.

That little defensive thing that Aspergillus does. And probably all molds, when they feel threatened to spit out more mycotoxin essential oils, chill that out and calm that down.

Oh, that's awesome.

We use those in buildings as well. So most of the time the one in three remediations, it's where they didn't take enough material. And then the second thing that's not done is particulate management and mycotoxin management. So there are certain air filters then that I recommend people run after their remediation and assuming they got all their stuff out of there. And that's where we have problems too is people keep too much of the stuff. I did it. I did it and I knew better. I made my car sick and I had to say bye bye to my car.

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah, wow. Right? I mean. Right. And you're in it. You're seeing patients, you know, for two decades and still we get stuck with that. Right?

Yeah. There's this little Jedi mind trick that mold does. Like, you know, it wants to keep you there because like lime scares me, but it doesn't scare me as much as mold. Lyme needs you alive. Mold would rather decompose you. Like that's his job. Isn't that like. Oh, you really think about those two critters.

There's a picture for you.

Yeah, I'm way more scared of mold. So that's why I rely on inspectors, certified inspectors to manage the whole thing. They can be your advocate for insurance. They can make sure your remediators are doing the best work. You want a good, solid, well trained inspector. I have them in my book. But I can just rattle them off here for people.

Sure.

Credentials should be by the bbec, that's the Bobiology Institute or IICRC or acac. If your inspector is not certified by those, don't trust them. And don't trust the remediation company that says, oh, don't worry, you don't have to hire an inspector. We'll do the pre and post testing. Conflict of interest.

Yeah, totally. Yeah. Wow. And that's a make it or break it. Right? Because you're saying avoidance is your number one step. So that is a crucial component. My guess is like in the workplace, it gets a little bit more complicated.

Dicey. Yes, yes. Because owners, everybody has a different genetic susceptibility to mold toxin and mold exposure. Mold is more than just a spore illness, it's a toxin illness too. So some people are allergic to it. And those people tend to fare better because they have an absolute allergy, a reaction, and they get out. The people that are worse are the people that are genetics genetically susceptible to mold toxin. But it comes on in making whatever your pre existing stuff worse because it can affect every system in the body in every way. Any possible symptom almost. So, you know, it's one of those things where people. So if you have a genetic susceptibility, what I call mold canaries, because they'd be like the first of the canaries to, you know, squeak or kick the bucket in a mold cave. So if you're a mole canary, you're going to be sick. And other people's livers and detoxification systems and glutathione status and all these things that determine your ability to handle it, they seem to be doing okay. So if you're the first one to squeak at a company and everybody else seems to be fine, a company owner, a business owner can think, this is just a you thing. This is your problem. So, you know, that's a. It's a tricky spot to be in if you're mold sensitive because you will be one of the first ones to have symptoms. And typically it's women for a few reasons. Some mold, mycotoxins are estrogenic, so they kind of tip the balance if somebody already has estrogen dominance. The other is that women just have more fat, more body fat. And mold toxins are fat soluble, so we'll accumulate them faster than a man. So it's easy to say, you know, oh, that, that church secretary, you know, she's just getting irritable because she can't handle her work or whatever. You know, it can be lots of things that get sort of written off. Not, not real, not real.

And that's such a hard spot if you're like the canary, like you're saying you're all. You're kind of isolated and alone in that spot. So, wow, hard spot to be in for sure on Just a kind of bridging over to biofilms, right? So you mentioned biofilms and these molds sometimes protect themselves around that. Or what do you. What is that for people that are just tuning in. One second. Let me just tell them what they're listening to. This is what the health. I'm Dr. Greg Eckel. I've got my esteemed colleague, Dr. Jill Christa here, and we're talking about Break the Mold, her book. And then we're going to. We're going to be talking about immune system stuff, but here on biofilms. What is that?

So biofilm is more the rule than the exception in nature. It's a way that healthy communities of microbes help each other do what they need to do best. So there are healthy biofilms and sick biofilms. Sick biofilms host critters that are either normally found in a body but have overgrown. They got too big for their britches, or things that aren't supposed to be in the body but are using it as a decoy. And so it's this matrix of sludge that these things can work within and hide within. And they communicate. They use that sludge matrix as a. As their own Internet. And that's how they can help each other out. They kind of watch your immune system to say, okay, they're taking a dip herpes, go make a cold sore, go make babies, you know, mold, go ahead and find a new place to host in the body. Go out and find new, you know, their mars, so to speak. Like, find their other place to hang out. And so they find other places in the body to invade. And in some of my patients, especially with the Lyme mold combination, they're dealing with severe sick biofilm in the sinuses and in the gut. And we've actually seen, you know, peeling of it. People will actually pass biofilm in the stool or they'll blow it out of their nose. And you think, what is that tissue? Because it looks like they blew out their septum, but it's this gray, slimy bleh. And that's been impeding the oxygen exchange in their sinuses. It's been impeding the sinuses job, which is to trap pollens and trap things, to kind of blow them out with your snot. And it's trapped. You know, all this assimilation is what's happened in the gut. This biofilm is eating all of it. And so you have people who have chronic malnutrition even though they're eating perfect diets because nothing can get through the barrier.

Are you seeing, like, women in particular that have a really hard time losing weight with biofilms as Well, I mean, especially. Yeah. Wow.

I experienced myself when we left our sick home and I moved. We did end up having to move because it was just one of those things. We couldn't find where all of the mold was. We remediated everything, did the particulate cleaning, did the mycotoxin cleaning, but still, my kids and I, every time it rained, we just didn't feel good. So I wrote a whole story about the house and, you know, made sure that whoever was moving in there was not a mold canary. And the family that's in there is fine, but, you know, we didn't ever feel good. So we ended up moving. And three months later, I dropped 10 to 15 pounds. And I changed nothing else. And I thought, oh my goodness, this is what my patients have been talking about. There's just this extra fluff holding to protect you.

Yeah, it's a protective mechanism, right?

Yeah.

This whole. I mean, you can encapsulate all of that, no pun intended, on ended neuroinflammation. Right. So this is the overlap for me looking at chronic neurodegeneration and maybe is a great segue into your next chapter. Boy, I'm full of them today. I know. I'm on a roll with, you know, with pandas and pans and autoimmune encephalitis. Like, what, what's the. What's this next? You've got another book coming out and I'd love to have you when it's published, but let's segue in there. We got. We're coming down the 20 minutes left on the show, but these are all so interrelated, so it's hard not to talk about one without the other. So I'm going to lob that over to you.

Okay, I'll take that and go with it. Okay, so in the pans, pandas, autoimmune encephalitis world, the string I'm seeing consistent on all those cases is there's some immune deficiency, some pre existing immune deficiency.

What is pan and pandas?

Yes. Thank you. Okay, so autoimmune encephalopathies is this umbrella title for a host of different types of conditions that have to do with the body having an autoimmune attack of your own system in the brain and the basal ganglia. So that's causing things that disrupt brain chemistry, disrupt brain inflammation. And it's just anytime the immune system gets tweaked, the body starts this immune assault and the body attacks itself. So where rheumatoid arthritis is attacking Joints. Pandas. And Pans attacks the brain stem and certain areas of the body that look like that, so that those are the conditions. And pandas is a little bit different than Pans. Pandas. We're trying to define it. When you have any kind of burgeoning diagnosis like this, it gets really tough to, like, what are the criteria of diagnoses and this kind of thing. So really, really smart researchers are working on that. And I'm just trying to be, as a clinician, trying to figure out what do we do about it.

You know, it sounds cute and cuddly, so I know it is. Not that.

Not that. Yeah. In my book, I talk about changelings, as so many parents have said. It was like our kid was stolen in the night. They had a strep infection, and four to seven days later, we don't know our kid. They're violent, they're beside themselves. They can't self soothe. I mean, it's a really scary and sad situation. And pans is just accepting that sometimes it's not always strep that triggers that. So Pan does refers to strep as the cause. And Pans says that, well, it can be Lyme. Some of the co infections with Lyme, like Babesia, bartonella. I'm seeing a lot of bartonella mold combination with Pans. So, you know, it's saying that there could be other things that tweaks the immune system that set off that autoimmune reaction.

Got it. And are you showing, like, folks are able to reverse this entirely or what's happening with that?

I'm still early in it, admittedly. I have some tools I want to share, and that's why I'm writing a book, because I feel like that there aren't a lot of resources for parents out there or clinicians. You know, we're sort of in that world of what is this? And only now are we getting NIH funding for research to really delve into what's going on. So it took, you know, as things do, it took two decades to say, this is a real condition. This isn't bad parenting. And now that we've accepted, okay, this is a real condition, it kind of swung the other way to they all need to be institutionalized and drugged. So now we're coming to a better place with the pendulum left. Okay, we should do some research and find out what's going on. And so that's my job. I think my unique ability is taking really complex medical stuff and bringing it to simple language and simple, actionable steps. So that people have it in their own hands.

That's great. Yeah, Empowering people. That's awesome. And very disruptive. Dr. Christa, I love it. Yeah. That's the whole point of what the health. Because this information isn't out there, right? Like the people aren't getting this information. It's like you got to take, take this drug and you know, we're going to placate symptoms. And really what you're talking about is correct, you know, helping people help themselves, correcting underlying imbalances and get back to flourishing. Which is possible. Right. Like we see it, we've seen it. You know, we went to school together and now like two decades into practice, it's like, wow, you know, you get confident in telling people the body can heal itself. Right. Given the right information, even in these really complex, hopeless, overwhelming situations. So, you know, thank you for the work that you're doing. So on that. So on the pans and pandas, autoimmune encephalitis, like you know this triad, right? We've got the Lyme and then we've got mold and we've got these autoimmune conditions that are also neuro inflammatory. Do you see what else goes in that kind of meta picture? Do you have another one that you would link in there?

Well, and I think that's where book three is, the brain injury one. Because it does these kind of conditions create an infection, chemical brain injury. And that we've seen with classic traumatic brain injury. Once you've had one brain injury, you have a three time risk of getting a second. Once you've had a second, you have a seven to nine times risk of getting a third. So I think that what's happening is that rule of thumb is holding true for people who have brain injury from other causes. So if you have brain injury from a PANDAS or pans, you are now at higher risk of having a traumatic brain injury. Vice versa, if you've had a traumatic brain injury, you are now more at risk for having a PANDAS pans or Lyme activation or be more of a mold canary to molecular to mold exposure. So when I see that statistic about traumatic brain injury, my naturopathic holistic brain is thinking what are the other causes of brain injury and is the mechanism the same? And it turns out it very much is. Low glutathione status and tissue status in the brain, low DHA status in the brain, inflammation, neuroinflammation that's trapped because the body gets that blood brain barrier leakage and then it tries to seal it to not let any more bad stuff get in. So it's all that same sort of that process that's happening that sets the stage for people to fall into one of those chronicity categories.

Yeah. And do you feel like, is it just the weakness and the vitality of the individual that makes them more susceptible to that? Or. I mean, clearly it's not just bad luck.

No, it's not bad luck. Not at all. Because if people want to think that, then they don't. They're not empowered to do something about it. So it's absolutely not bad luck. But that goes back to that finding that I'm finding that there seems to be some immune deficiency at the foundation of all of these conditions. So whether that's a congenital IG subclass deficiency, I'm seeing that a lot in pans and pandas. It could be a natural killer cell or B cell or T cell deficiency due to mold exposure or Lyme. It could be that you were born with Lyme disease, but. So your body has some sort of next gen information about Lyme, but you never developed a normal immune system. So Lyme is sort of able to coexist in a not optimal health way, but not frank Lyme infection way. And that stuff tends to kind of pop out when you hit puberty or pregnancy or have an injury.

Got it. Those kind of stress components or changes on the body system that opens that up of like, oh, let's, let's go, let's express. Wow. Wow.

I know that's kind of. You just got my entire, like.

Yeah. Wow. That's awesome, though. I mean, I like, you know, your trajectory and it makes sense because these things are so interlinked and it's hard to, you know, really, you know, focus in on one without really talking about all of them. But you're doing a great job. So thank you. On, like, really segmenting these out in a. In a way that we can understand. So I really appreciate that.

I know. I can't wait to completely geek out with you sometime soon on what you're finding in your research and you're digging because.

Well, in this overlapping. It's so exciting, you know, looking at chronic neurodegeneration and where these things. Because, you know, I have not focused purposefully on these conditions. Right. So I've. I'm interviewing some of the experts out there in the country. Right. And. But I do see it's got to come into the discussion when we're talking about the brain inflamed and when you look at a differential in chronic neurodegeneration, you've got to rule these things out or in because they all play a role. And what you're sharing, I mean, this whole immune system function, I just kind of remembers and I got to share this with you and our listeners. Viewers. Dr. Bill Mitchell was a co founder of Bastyr University. And I just remember early on he said, you know, naturopathic doctors are like Gaia's immune system. And with you bringing up this, talking about immune system activation and all of the kind of all of the patterns that can fit in there, it really makes sense. Like it's just kind of how we've been trained to treat whole dynamic people moving through time and space. And you look at that immune system function and it really is in us at all levels. And it's getting activated across the board from whether it's a physical trauma, emotional trauma, infectious agent trauma, the immune system is really orchestrating or responding to other. So it's kind of exciting time as we're, you know, getting more experienced, seasoned aging, however you want to say it, you know, with, in being able to draw all of these connections really in a strong fashion with clinical experience with real people. Right. It's not, we're not talking theory. We're not out in the lab. We're actually really helping real people. And you know, we're drawing from all of those, all of the researchers and bless them for doing that. And you know, I think just in the, on the ground floor though, of, you know, really helping each other out while we're on the planet. So it's exciting, you know, to be able to have these conversations at such a high level and then also break it down into understandable terms.

Yeah.

So speaking of that, so we're gonna, we're gonna come kind of full circle, is there? I mean, I know I kind of bridged in the pandas and the pans and the autoimmune encephalit. Anything else in that realm that you would like to share? I'm going to wrap it back around in a moment, back into kind of our mold discussion and that book, because that's the one that's out there right now. But on the pandas and pans, on that autoimmune or immune system, anything come to you?

The biggest thing for me is just that there are so many resources available in my research and it's been so decadent to, to be able to look at this research. Like you said, thank goodness people are. There are researchers out there. But you know, there isn't a lot of time to bridge research to clinical practice. Yeah, that's what I'm doing. Taking a break right now to try to make those bridges. And as I've dug into the research I found. Oh my goodness. We have in botanical medicine we have these avatars that have been put on the planet for this very purpose. They do everything. They hit all the bells that are involved. They're anti inflammatory, they're immune modulatory. Their brain chemistry balancing, neurotransmitter balancing. They seal up the brain, blood, brain barrier, the gut lining and are just this beautiful chill out plant that helps people sleep who are having agitating brain inflammation. And it's just like I can't wait to introduce these avatars to everybody so that they can understand how powerful these medicines are and really help. Like you were saying, back to. This is going to get more esoteric back to Dr. Mitchell. Help people ground back into the earth and care. So that's where I think a lot of this immune deficiency is happening is we are out of touch with the immune system of our planet and it needs our help too.

Totally. You know, we are so related to it and having it all, you know, we are an extension of Gaia and you know, pretending that we're not part of this thing that is really. It's speaking loudly to so many people. And you know, unfortunately it seems like, well, we. It has to be louder for people to really pay attention. And so, you know, I think having some ability to communicate together and also listen to the plants, listen to the planet, it really goes a long way to helping everybody heal. So yeah, that's awesome. All right. So on boy. Yeah, we went out there. That's great. I love it.

I can bring it back to mold with that. That a lot of people are like, you know, we got to kill the mold, kill the mold, kill the mold. But I think we're. I kind of have a little sympathy for mold because I think we're confusing it. It's just trying to do its job, to compost and recycle. We need it, but we need it outside, not inside. So you know, when people are going through mold treatment, I'm like, okay, feel empowered on that kill thing. But also next step is pay attention to your living environment and that you're connected with nature.

Yeah, I love that. And it is such a crucial point to make in a thinking process is we don't want to be at war with our bodies or any process that's going on in There, once we're at war with that, with ourselves, we've lost. It doesn't matter what the outcome is, you lose. It's the case with war across the board. Especially looking at your health, that is such a potent point. I really want to draw that out because looking at it of our bodies are trying to heal themselves, right? And you're saying, look, this is a natural process. It's doing what it's meant to do. We just need to address the underlying imbalances that led to it being there. It by itself is, yes, you've got to eliminate it, but you've got to clean. You've got to make your body less hospitable for it to be there. Right. It's kind of that overlap in Chinese medicine is called Gu syndrome. And, you know, this dampness in the body and, you know, what happens in the macrocosm or in the universe happens in the microcosm of our bodies. And one big revelation for me, and then I'm going to turn it back over to you. Is used to always say, we are in the universe, the universe is in us. And I've basically arrived at we are the universe. The universe is us. And with taking a couple of those words out of there, you know, really, we are potent creators and, you know, realizing that and coming to that, understanding and listening and being patient and. And allowing, I think we can really do some quantum leaps together. So that's what I'm super excited about. All right, so coming down the home stretch again, this is what the Health. I'm Dr. Greg Eckel. If you're just tuning in now, please tune in to this episode with Dr. Joe Christa talking. Break the mold and pans and pandas and immune system and Gaia talk. You can go to naturecuresclinic.com and tune in there. We've got the feed on there. Contact Talk radio is the other spot to look for this. If you like the show, please give us a review. It means a lot to me. It means a lot to my guests, really. We're out here to serve you. Please share the show with your loved ones because this is where you're going to get the real information to help each other. Like, that's what we're out here doing. All right, so Dr. Christa on how do people find out more about you? You gave us your website, drcrista.com you've got a mold quiz on there. You've got some resources that they can gather on mold, free eating and beverages. What else? What else would you like to share.

I have a lot of videos, little video blogs that I put out there. Just free little videos. When I feel inspired to share something, I throw it out there. I have a YouTube channel, Instagram, Facebook, the whole deal and then I'll upload them to my website so you can subscribe to that if that's something you want to just hear. What little thought bubble about mold and then it's going to start shifting to neuroinflammation pandas pans. But you know I can't help myself with mold. I'm sure it'll keep popping up. Indeed.

It's everywhere I think is what they say. Right.

Yeah, it's starting to be kind of an endemic issue. So yeah, I'm here to help.

Love it. Well, I really appreciate you coming on, taking the time to share your wisdom and knowledge bombs with us all. All and please keep tuning in folks and share us with your loved ones.

Thanks Dr. Eckel. That was really fun.

Indeed. You're very welcome.