EP 158 WTH?!?: Navigating Emotional Resilience with Dr. Ardeshir Mehran

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Hey, welcome back everybody. I'm Dr. Greg Eckle and this is what the health Today's topic is. Navigating success and emotional resilience. Insights for brain health and longevity. My guest today is Dr. ARer Marin, PhD. He's a visionary psychologist with a profound impact on the field of mental health. Armed with advanced degrees from Columbia University, his pioneering theory is you are not depressed, you are unfinished. He also has a book on that title. He has reshaped our understanding of emotional well being with three decades of experience. He specializes in guiding high achievers through the intricacies of depression and anxiety. Particularly really their impact on executives. Odisher welcome aboard.

Thank you. Thank you so much Greg and appreciate for the welcome and so happy to be here with you and your audience and trying to demystify crazy labels life gives us. So clinicians like me, depression, anxiety, obsessive compulsive that what do they really mean? And then really getting under the hood.

I love that, you know I think that that component it can be helpful for folks where if they don't understand their emotions or what's going on in their body to have somewhere to hang their hat. But unfortunately where the people hang their hat is there's not a lot of great solutions there. So I love it that you've reframed this for folks. So you know, give me the kind of the backstory of how you are. Have you just came in practicing that way or was it through time you had this aha moment like hey I need to reframe this for my clients and my patients.

So the backstory I was a kid that was a Curious George that was asking a lot of question as long as I remember question that very soon parents and teachers stop don't ask that. You know, deal with it. So I always was question the two question that always had why is mom always in pain? You know like why is dad always lose tired? There's a look in a lot of patterns. Patterns have that they are with kids but they are not there. There's a sadness, there's a. There's a burden. Why is mom is having a lot of ah life someday will get better. As a kid you grow up and thinking what is going on with moms? Very soon I realized grandparents are like that My older siblings were like that. Very soon it was me that you feel like is burdensome. So I went to graduate school. I was a good student. Even in my doctor program I tripled major. I wasn't after degrees. I was trying to answer why people suffer so Much. And what I learned, there's a private side and public side, public side. You smile, you look great, you smell great, you have a house, you, life off the party. Then when you get to see people privately, do you hear a different story that they don't even tell their spouses, they don't tell their friends, they write in their journals. And as I start to go into a corporate environment, I was in my 20s, single guy, an immigrant to United States executive would ask me or she come in the office, close the door. And then they would tell me stories of their addiction, infidelity, suffering, that struggle they had pain, bodily pain that would never leave them. And I was thinking, that's dad's story, that's mom's story. And very soon that became my story. By the time I reached 30, early 30s, married my wife and I think about the family, I was succumbing to depression. And I went over the years in New York City and San Francisco to seven psychologists. I was a good patient, followed the regimen, the psychiatrist, medication. And I felt that they getting my symptoms right, I get feel better. But depression comes back again. And at certain point exactly 11 years ago, I changed my question. And I talk about this in my book. There's epiphany that really saved me. Instead of asking how do I heal depression, Ask the different question, what is depression? That's the day I realized that we, and there's a juncture in history and the history of, you know, psychiatry that we started to medicalize depression. That depression is the com is the fact of your brain and your brain chemistry. And that's where the modern psychiatry is. But when you look at depression, so I start to listen to people. When people said I'm depressed, I would ask them, tell me more, what is it you're seeing? What is it you want? And I noticed everybody, when they're depressed, they tell about their depression. They're seeking something, they're yearning for something, and they know it, but they don't know where it is. Something was lost somewhere along the life of that they had. Depression is mourning, depression is grieving. Depression is a sense of disconnection, of loss. And when I start to help people in about what is the loss in your life? I realize that their depression shifts, they are awakened that instead of trying to heal their symptoms, they say that, you know, my life sucks, I'm in a job, that I'm making a lot of money, but I'm going nowhere, I'm in a relationship that is unfulfilling. I need to do something. There is a sense of stuckness that was me trying to find me. So I start to realize depression is about the life unlived. And when people tell me these days, and I get a lot of those calls almost every week, people around the world say I'm depressed. And I tell them, dear friend, what that means. There are some basic emotional needs that they are not fulfilled in your life. There are things missing. If you work hard, there are parts missing or they are not being put together. Well, there's a way to know what it is. Fix that. Depression dissipates. Depression is a wake up call from you to you. You cannot drug it, you cannot drink it away and so on. Depression is your soul crying. Say wake up, wake up. You're bigger than where you are and what you're doing.

So you use the symptoms as like grist for the mill.

That's right.

That separation, that loss, the malaise, the kind of all of the above. That's the question is not what do I need to take for this. It's more what was lost, what am I missing? Is this where you bring in the concept of an emotional bill of rights?

That's right, Exactly. Exactly. So I've been researching that for 30 years that when people talk about their loss, different people, different gender, different countries, different background, more or less, they tell the same story. So this came from listening to hundreds and hundreds of people. Your point is very important for listening, to hear. I'm a clinician, I was trained that the moment person comes to me, you listen to their symptoms. You need to do two things. Diagnose quickly because you want to help people. It's a good thing. Then what is the treatment? So they feel less pain, you help them get better. So why do we pay attention to symptoms? Is basically symptom management, symptom reduction. But what we were not taught symptom is the graceful male is basically is indicator that depression is not the cause, is a consequence. Take that. Follow the breadcrumbs. Go there, tell, tell me more. See what their life is all about. There are different questions you ask. And realize this person is sitting on a life that is not fulfilling to them. Opposite of depression is not happiness is fulfillment. Once you help people find fulfillment where you are in your life as it is. You literally see depression dissipates, it morphs, it changes and many times goes away. And I tell people, there will be a day if you do this work, you will wake up, you are not depressed, you are pissed, you'll be angry. Say, I don't want to waste time anymore. I do not want to play small anymore. I don't want to say yes to conditions that they are not right for me anymore.

So that component, do you find that anger underlies a lot of depression, anger.

And frustration you putting up with? Exactly, exactly. Another way that the clinicians philosopher of centuries ago would write about it. Depression is anger turned inward.

Yeah.

So you sit on it and after a while you numb yourself because it hurts. That's that use that anger. Actually anger is energy. Use it, turn it to motivation to do things with it. It's a fuel.

I think though, you know we, we've grown up at least in this culture in North America and I'm guessing in other cultures as well around it's not a very comfortable nor thorted emotion is to be angry. And so we, we kind of stifle that. So I want to return to this concept of the emotional Bill of Rights. What do you mean by that?

But so what what I mean that. Let me just give some context. Ask anybody. Tell me about pathology, emotional illness. And there's a vast, vast decades, centuries rich research pathology. American Psychiatric Association Ask a different question. What does it mean be emotionally healthy. Even do a Google search, you see fragments. People talk about love, about happiness, about community. But somehow along the way of human development we lost sight of what does it mean to be healthy. We have a bit of emotion of Abraham Maslow needs hierarchy and Viktor Frankl about the man's search for meaning. So as I was listening to people and I did a lot of work with the geriatric patients in my clinical work with children you start to see people basically they want the same thing in life. There's some basic emotional needs, core needs that they are biological. We are designed to experience them, to fulfill them. And they are cradle to grave. In fact some of my clients these days, they are 70 year old grandmothers and grandpas. They called me and says my kids are putting me in nursing home more or less saying that mom, dad, stay there till you pass on and say I know there's a fire inside me. Yes, my body is frail, but I want to start again. Your book tells me about there is a like it's Serena Williams or Michael Jordan inside me. I want to experience that I'm not dead, my body's free, I'm not. So there are seven emotional needs that started from birth and they morph to our lifetime. And we all have them. We all have them. Parents don't give it to us. Bosses, relationships, politicians, we have them Once you know them. These are as essential as your civic rights. And once you know them and you can experience them in your being, you learn that your depression and those rights they are very tight. And you the moment you touch some of them and I've seen this over and over, people say oh my gosh, oh my gosh. I didn't know that. You know, this session hurts. Can we stop right now? I need to go take a nap and come back. Suddenly people are awake and realize they have so much in them. So those rights, let me just name them and come back to them. The first one is I belong. It's the sense of relationships start at birth. The way that the mother or caregiver holds you, welcomes you. You feel you belong to somebody through your experiences, through emotions. The way you touch, the way you fed, the way you the your eyes meet somebody eyes at the sense of I'm part of somebody's life and very soon becomes a community. There becomes a the neighborhood. The family becomes that sense of connection. I belong. I have a tribe for many people. Many people they are lonely. That's the story of many senior people, professionals. They are in a room full of people, but they're lonely. They're isolated. Number one. The other one sense of I am boundless. We by the time you started to 20th century we became talking heads. Even the term mental health scientifically is incorrect. Mental illness scientifically is incorrect. We think stuff happened in our brain. What we know from the emerging research, trauma centers, pain clinics. That body and brain they are very tightly connected. Being in nature moving, using your body for expression versus our body. This day is basically locomotive moves our brain around. We our feelings are in our bodies. That's the reason a lot of professionals, whether you're corporation or not, women have gastrointestinal problem, men have cardiovascular problems. They start to take a lot of medications for that. That's where emotions are in our bodies. Pain is an emotion dormant. So I'm boundless means about bringing your body is to human experience and working with death. And what we know body actually has a higher output of emotions than brain. So using that the other one is I'm boundless. I'm. I'm sorry. I'm complete. Many people and this was me for a long time. We are burdened with shame, with sorrow, with regret, with past trauma. Our life feels like burden with anchors. What we know from mindfulness meditation and the neurology there's no such thing as past. Our body perpetually lives in this moment. And the over reliance of recalling what happened to me, the pain that I had, the trauma that I had, the abuse that I had, yes, it's important. But life is in this moment. So there's a way of experiencing life that is in this moment based. We haven't been taught that, but once you bring that to healing therapy, therapy can go a lot faster. You don't need weeks and months and years in matter of few sessions. You can get a lot done once you realize you heal in this moment. And in fact a lot of talk therapy about what happened to you back then and when it is not helpful, it keeps bringing you to the scene of the crime versus right now. Whatever you need is right here. How do you create the life that you need? And that's a skill As a society, as humanity, we haven't been taught the next need is I matter whether you live uptown, you live downtown, you live here, you live over there, you're on this earth. Dignity, honor, respect bestowed upon you. Yet many people are invisible. I work in corporate environment, in conference room, you would see people arriving to the room. Nobody turns around, see them, address them, call their name as people's opinion. There are a lot of people forgotten. Just sit there quietly to be honored, to see your name be uttered to somebody says. I say, hey Greg, great to see you. Come sit here, Greg. What are you thinking about this topic? Creating a space for you. What you know from a lot of research, all those mass killing happens. Besides that, a lot of people emotionally unstable with guns. A lot of young people typically mentioned when they ask them the reason they are invisible people, they feel nobody sees me. So their act of violence is act of saying, hey, I exist here. The next need, which is very important in the world of profession. And we know this from Gallup work Gallup survey, year after year, up to 70 to 75% of people in the work environment. And this is global. They say my job is not my job. I feel uninspired, unmotivated, I'm just paying the bill, healthcare benefit. I have responsibility, but I'm doing the work. But I'm just spending time here. What you know from research, when you do the things that you meant to do, you're in a space that you create. You do that, it's your work. You literally get depressed, anxiety goes higher, health conditions worsen and depression creeps in because you just feel power, you feel victimized, you feel you lose your mojo and your strength. Then the next need is the need I am. Each person has a voice, has a conviction, has a belief, has an idea, doesn't mean it's the best idea. Sometimes it's not. But it's your voice. Are you sharing what you believe in? Are you standing your ground? Are you claiming your voice among others? You see this in men and women differently. For many men in the especially that I work in the professional environment, when they want to be seen, be noticed, they almost overshoot. They become very strong, pounding the table. Let me tell you what I think. So really the project, very strong and almost forceful voice to be heard for women as a way to be heard. Often they become like a young, positive, sweet younger girl. And they become like almost passive. So this one is about finding your authentic self, authentic voice. And say it in a way that means to you, that is your right. And the work that I do. I played a song, Katy Perry, Roar.

Yes.

And I would tell them, what is your roar song? What is your roar voice? That is your voice. You're doing it for yourself. Forget about everybody else. To please say it in a way that your core says, this is me. This is me. And the final one, which is you see in the flip chart behind me, Maya Angelou has a saying. There is no greater agony than burying an untold story inside you. An untold story. Many people, their biggest fear is on my deathbed, when I take my last breath. What have I done with my life? This is about 8 billion people, 8 billion stories. Do you know your story? Do you? Are you walking toward that? Once you do that is almost unshackling yourself that this is why I am who I am. What do I do? So these needs, they are present for all of us, all the time. But at each point in life, younger person, older person, about our age, usually two or three plays in a dynamic. So for right now, for example, for me, there's a need that calls you, excites you, draws you. For me is I soar. My book, my vision, this will be the work I do till my last breath. I'm creating a way to disrupt the mental health field. I think you're over complicated things. People should not be suffering so much. That's my work. I'm drawn to that. The one that is a source of angst and heaviness for me is I make. I'm literally building a new business model. People need to know about this. You know, write social media, going podcasts, going lectures, keynote. So it's work. The one that gives me stability is my family, my neighbors, my golden retriever. So my friends that they stabilize me. So at each point those needs, one is excites you, pulls you in, motivates you. There's one brings you sorrow, says, oh gosh, I need to figure this out. This is demanding. And then there's one that is a backbone, stability. So use. And people say, so what do I do? Follow the energy. Follow the energy that is within. It calls you. Don't overthink it. You know it already. What calls you, what frustrates you and what stabilizes you and just surrender and go all in.

That's beautiful. So let me, let me ask some specifics on a couple of those in there. On the one, I think it was number five, you had mentioned the losing of your mojo. Now up to that point, you had like, I am complete, I am boundless, I matter, I am. What would you call that one I.

Make is I make. I make that. You could be anything, but you're doing something. Is your vocation, profession. Everybody's doing something on this earth. Yes, you're doing something. There's a gift you have.

Is that in the vein of purpose, of purpose. What is your purpose?

Purpose goes to. I soar. Purpose goes to eyesore. You know that the one. This one is about whatever you do. Is this your work? Everybody on this earth has a work. We are all doing things. Everybody's doing the work. And is that your work or are you doing the work to pay the bill? And once you ask people what is the work, that if you are not worried about the money, obligation, what would you do? Realize a lot of time those two answers don't match.

Yes.

And people.

Yeah. That component of kind of being in heart resonance of instead of just being in this neighborhood, that's a dangerous neighborhood to go into by yourself.

Yeah.

Really asking the heart of, well, what. What lights you up? Like, can you follow your joy? You know, it's kind of like a. A bit, you know, it gets made fun of. But it is really, it's the, it's the thing that matters. Like.

That's right.

You know, you brought up Victor FR Frankel's book, Man's Search for Meaning.

Yeah.

And maybe, you know, bring that into the conversation here on how you develop these. Because that really is at a very dark, dark time. And maybe folks don't know that book, so maybe we'll share that.

That's right. And then the one. There's a statement, forget the. The source of that. That work is love made come alive. That whatever you love, you do it. It's work. And the Victor Frankl work is that in this world. And just, it's not just the U.S. it's global. We see our purpose given to us. I'm an executive, I'm a psychologist. I mean like you know, there's a lot of external meaning making that we absorb and that's what a lot of time we do to our kids. Go become accountant, go become a doct doctor, go become a programmer. Sense of purpose, sense of meaning, sense of value. It comes from a decency of human being that I do something in this world that there's a sense of dignity trumps everything else. There's a sense of value that I'm connected to this earth, to this life. That is the meaning that I have. That is yours. It can get violated, can be denied, but it can never be extinguished. That's the reason people who political prisoners like Nelson Mandela almost over 20 years in solitary confinement. He believed in what his dignity? That I'm a man, I'm a human being and nobody, they can hurt me, but nobody can take that away from me. This is about there's an innateness, power and goodness in us that belongs to us. Once you know that, you can weather anything. Especially right now in our world there's a lot of hurt. There are wars going on. A lot of barbaric, hurtful and really ungodly events are happening that tear your hearts apart. But once we step into the dignity of humans, the goodness of people, that's how we bind ourselves versus labels here and there. That's what Viktor Frankl tapped into that that I'm a man, I'm somebody and nobody can take that away from me.

That component, you know, maybe a bit of an aside but in, in current affairs and seems to be a tremendous amount of reactionary hate against this group or that group or if you're not speaking out this way then you're such and blah blah blah, how do we disarm or defuse that.

So this is how I see that. Thank you. This is a very important topic. The way that this discussions frame is that I know the right thing, I'm in the right and you are wrong. That and I trust the people who have the same values as me. They're like me, they're the same background versus you. If you are violated anywhere in the world, with any creed, any religion, any nationality, if you are hurt, you're violated. You are my sister or brother, I stand for you. That's injustice. Injustice is the human experience. It's not just one person or that group that injustice is bad regardless. Freedom, dignity is good for everybody. So the reason we do that that happens is the curse of the fear. We humans are pack animals. It's been like that from the beginning. We find safety sheltering when we are with our so called people. But what we don't know by doing that the same with our people. We actually perpetually we are lonely, under threat and we feel isolated. Is when we stand like Wiktor Frankl stand for mankind. That I know your dignity. You know my dignity. I stand for you, you stand for me. So the work we do like I'm active on LinkedIn and I see right away in LinkedIn it's just professional setting. People are starting to take sides. And I'm thinking I don't want to take side, I want to stand with you. You're being violated. Your people have been violated. I stand with you. That was bad, pure, no explanation needed. And so there's an element of dignity of person standing with our sisters and brothers. Bad is bad. It's always been like that and say so and go and write around that same for basic decency of humankind.

Yeah, it's. It's coming to that understanding. You know at some point in the not too distant past I realized wow, my brothers and sisters are being treated as products in this production. Yeah, call it that. And we've really drifted from that dignity. The basically the, that inalienable right of existence. I mean we all won the lottery by being born like the odds of being born into this planet are. You know, it's unfathomable. It's a miracle really. We have life here and but we, we get so swayed by emotions and or fear. We've been living in such fear over the last four or five years that I feel like we're not able to actually access our greatness nor the, the possibilities of our frontal lobes because we're back in the amygdala and that rep, you know, reptilian brain of fear of like waiting for where's the intruder? And we're not able to and then actually access our frontal lobes executive functioning and then be able to then direct into our hearts and create and live from that authentic space. And this is a piece, you know, I see, you know I specialize in brain regeneration and, and having people realize that we haven't even been taught our full greatness because we've been maybe watching too much news or world events are not great right now with a war and injustices across the board and. But you look back through time and that that's kind of been going on for a while.

It has been. I mean it's unfortunate. You look at biblical texts which I started part of my research. I went to all the Old Testament, New Testament about Bill of Rights. People have talked about it, but people have always been messy. People have always been messy. And yet in those times of trial wars and struggles. You used a very powerful term, Greg. Dignity. Dignity and courage. These are two quality of human that elevates us above the messiness of humans. Dignity. It me like in some way fascinates me when people come to therapy and meet with me always. So there's a part they want to hurt less, they want to find different answers and what they get their element of dignity, of respect that you can be any way you want to be talk in anything you want to talk about. You will get complete respect your space, no judgment. You can be yourself. That's a lot of time people go to clinicians, to their clergyman, to the rabbis as a way to get some basic dignity that it's me my hope is that to do it as neighbors, as co workers, as community, that that's what we all want. And something like that it boome. Yeah boomerangs that defeats the whole interaction, you know. And it's so hard to find that.

That component in there around the no judgment that seems like it goes to your. The first tenant where you said I belong. Like we are pack people and we do better in community because our hearts are in residence. But when you're outcast or shunned or judged, you know that I believe actually was even, you know, the shame and the, and the kind of the guilt and regret also comes up as maybe the initial wound. That piece of the non judgment free zone.

That's.

I mean basically that's what we call our centers. But I'm with you of can we have that in our community and, and maybe grace is the word that comes up.

Absolutely.

Affording ourselves and others and maybe operating under the assumption that everybody is doing their best, you know. But then you know there's, there's levels of that I guess there's nuances. However we don't have people really walking around like that. There is that we know this group knows we're the absolute supreme and everybody else is wrong or vice versa. And, and that's where that the. I feel like the conflicts and the wounds and the, the pain, the disconnect come from.

That's right. Your point is. Is beautiful Greg. In terms of there is a wound. Everybody has it. If they say they don't, they're not in touch or they are just making things up. Everybody has it. And everybody goes to the world day to day activities. And there are parts that they are vulnerable. They're parts they need to protect, they need to part defend the gift. We can have to know those vulnerable and open wounds. Because those means that we can quickly in a flash become reactive, become defensive and go on and attack. Once we know what is our open wounds and what triggers that. That's how you heal the open wounds. Or another we say trauma. Having said that going to that emotional needs of I belong. Many people haven't experienced that what it means to belong to sense of connection. So case example. My wife and I have been married 33 years. We fell in love when they were early 20s in New York City. And when I was in my dark years. I was saying I love you. She's a beautiful girl from Buffalo, New York. But when you're in the depressed traumatized zone. I was saying I love you. I didn't know what does love means. I just know. But coming to Valentine's, you bring her flowers as honey. I love you. You know, just. I was doing all the right things. As I heal my depression, my trauma came out of it. I start to see my wife differently. I start to see her beautiful eyes. And the way I hugged her. It felt different, you know. And then so once I settled in my own wounds, I realized I was hurt because as a kid I have no memory of being held. And I was punished a lot. And sometimes physical punishment. When you're hungry for hurt for hug it's good enough. Somebody at least touches me, acknowledges me. So my wife and I learned to hug again. And as a way for me to like this is what connection is. And that's. I started to be with her and then I realized she's hugging me and it feels different. So by showing as you are. Nobody's gonna be Sound of Music. The hills are alive. Everybody goes to life with their own mess. But once you know what you need what's not there for you and be able to express that and be open. The next person also becomes more vulnerable. Realize my wife had needs that she didn't know how to express. She become more open with each other. So it's. It's through our open wounds that we find the connection and healing for each other in real time. We can do this for each other. When there's disagreement, there's violence that you're hurting, you've been violated. I'm hurting. Let's find a way through the dignity for common bonds to do something right now, right here.

Beautiful Beautiful. You know, I think I want to kind of come down to the home stretch here. What it really sparks in me is this question is, you know, what is a life well lived? Like what are we doing here together? And you know, here you've got, you know, you are not depressed. You are unfinished. The the Bill of Rights of emotions and this deeper connection, you know in the heart space of love basically. And so I'm wondering in. In if I pose it's a large question. I get it. But for you in what is a life well lived.

Yeah. Thank you. I believe in this and I will back and explain that we are here, you are here, I'm here every listener to shift something on this earth. So when you go to my book go to Amazon reviews there's a woman who wrote a review and then wrote me directly. She said that she's a professional woman somewhere in Midwest said that few nights ago I was contemplating suicide. Somehow your book showed in my Amazon feed right away I bought it on ebook Reddit and I ordered a hard copy. Your book saved me and I found hope and the way you talked about my pain and my finding my way showed me a roadmap. I again this is in my book that I didn't know I would come out of this dark period that I had. I was a professional person making a lot of money, role model, getting promoted and I was bleak and flat inside. That was mom. How was my mom was how my dad My work is to help people find themselves that suffering is man made that once you know what suffering is suffering there's nothing wrong with you. You already have original design. Nobody told you what is the operating manual you we are designed to work through the struggle to always step in the space of light and do something better versus stay in space of symptom management. That's my work. I'm very clear. It took me all these years to realize that I had to go get all the educational credentials but I learned in school of life learn from my clients people who taught me through their own healing and through their own pain that help people to suffer less to find their own light and be good human being. That's what I'm trying to do and try to be a better father, better husband, better neighbor, better owner for my own golden retriever and help people to live life lighter. That's my purpose and everybody's here to do something to fix something on this earth.

Lovely Ada. Sure. Thank you so much for coming on what the health everybody I you know I'm a little bit speechless here. This was beautiful. Thank you for sharing your message and your purpose shines through. You know look if you did not get something out of that episode maybe you should not come back to my podcast next week I want you to go out and give a five star review and write down one of those inalienable rights of what you got out of today's podcast because it literally could save a life. We're going to put your contact information in the show notes everybody we wouldn't be doing it out with if it weren't for you. So thank you for coming out this week and listening. Put put show notes put some questions and or comments underneath this video and let's get into dialogue around this because this is really what it is about a life well lived is we are in it together. Thank you so much doc and we will see you all next week.

Thanks for tuning in so much Greg. Thank you. A blessing. Be well. Thank you.