EP 173 WTH?!?: Mushrooms & Brain Regeneration with Robert Johnson

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Welcome back everybody. Dr. Greg Eckel and what the health Our topic today is mushrooms and psychedelics a possible key to brain regeneration and longevity? Or is it hype? My guest today is Robert Johnson. He's the founder and CEO of premium mushroom product company called Micro Boost and supplements manufacturer, manufacturer Custom capsule consultants. He's a cannabis and hemp industry veteran, health product expert, psychedelic advocate and seasoned entrepreneur with 20 plus year track record of launching successful startup businesses in new and emerging markets. His pioneering product innovations and keen insights into the future of health marketplace have made him a sought after consultant, conference speaker and op ed contributor. His bylines cannabis, hemp, Delta 8 kratom and mushrooms of all kinds have appeared in Rolling Stone, Cannabis Industry Daily, MG Magazine, Natural Products Insider, Nutraceuticals, World Nutritional Outlook and Green Entrepreneur. He's just fresh back from south by Southwest. Robert Johnson, welcome aboard.

Thanks a lot for that intro. Dr. Greg, excited to talk to you indeed.

Yeah, this is a ever burgeoning world and kind of wild west topic and you know, selfishly I want to, I want to talk about your, your experience in emerging markets because we're, we're there and then we're going to get into mushrooms which is one of your expertise but you know, you've been in cannabis psychedelics is coming up here. Ride sharing the they all began illegally and have or continue to be kind of on the fringe there. Not ride sharing per se but we, we want to, I want to talk about your experience on kind of catching that wave at the beginning and, and kind of that wild west feel and couching this really because we've got a bunch of health listeners out there of you know, how do you do this safe? You know it just seems like so we were talking before we got on here, you know there's a shaman on every corner and there's this plant medicine and that plant medicine and you know there's some research and there's a lot of illegality. There's different realms of the world that you can go to, you know, on, on all of the levels. I'm curious though in, in the entrepreneur component and what, what have your, what are you gleaning along this ride here of immers, emerging markets and how to be safe as a consumer?

Yeah, great question. And you know I haven't heard many people compare it to ride sharing but I've, I've compared it to ride sharing as well. Right. It's a disruption and giving people what they want, you know. But yeah, my, my experience in, in emerging markets was it Started with inspiration. Right. I find it like one of the most inspiring things of our generation that this group of, of activists and in small areas, starting in cities and states, have gotten enough attention, signatures, ballots passed, that now we have cannabis legal and medical or recreational form in over 40 states now. And so that is what is really inspiring to me. Right. And I don't think that these plants ever should have been criminalized. And so I'm glad that, that, you know, we're reversing 75, 100 years of prohibition in some cases. And so mushrooms just seem to be the next wave. Right. And I think cannabis legalization was really a great gateway drug, if you will, to legalizing these other plant medicines. And, and I think as people saw cannabis becoming more mainstream and accepted, you know, it made it a lot easier to swallow the idea of psychedelic mushrooms or, or other plant based medicines. Maybe, maybe the government's been telling us the wrong thing, right? Maybe it's been propaganda this whole time. And so when I, when I first saw mushrooms moving in this space, I was actually at a CBD conference in Denver and it was, it was like a joint conference. It was the first one I had seen. It was like CBD and psychedelic science. And I was like, that's, that's an interesting combo.

Yeah.

And it just so happened to be on the day, the day after Denver voted to decriminalize mushrooms. That was the, the first city in America to decriminalize mushrooms. It passed by less than 51. It was like 50.5%. And I got invited to this little mushroom pop up thing at the conference. I didn't know what I was walking into. And you know, I thought maybe it's going to be like a mushroom bazaar and you know, people selling chocolate bars and, you know, doing dancing to rave music, but quite the opposite. It was just a bunch of activists sitting around talking about how they got that measure passed. They were really candid that they didn't expect it to pass. It was just kind of like a, you know, the first step in a political statement to get in front of, you know, local authorities. But to their, to their pleasant surprise, it did pass. And, and then, you know, it became the scramble of, okay, well now how do we help to shepherd this in, in the most responsible, conscious way, you know, not opening it to drug abuse, but really doing what they intended when they, when they aim to decriminalize mushrooms is, you know, keep people out of prison for these things first off, and then, you know, educate people on how to use them and, and Integrate them into their life.

Yeah, cool. You know, it is, it's an exciting time. I, you know, never in my wildest dreams would I did I expect to see marijuana legalized and to have psilocybin mushroom psychedelics. You know, I, I'm able to prescribe legally ketamine therapies in our centers in Oregon and Utah. We have the whole psilocybin assisted therapy ballot measure in Oregon, where I have friends that are facilitators and have spaces up there that they're doing it legally. And then there's this whole kind of underground market that has been happening, you know, since dawn of people on the planet, I suppose. You know, it seems like what, what happens in particular with psychedelics, the, the legalization or decriminalization is not possibly not just a green light for people to say, like, hey, this is, you know, this is safe. You know, I think doing these things in appropriate manner. And this is coming from, you know, I chose my undergraduate school by how many Faithful Dead shows I could see on the East Coast. So I, I definitely, I do have that background in me as well. So to never in my wildest dreams what I think to see that we would be living in this time where there would be an openness about it. But there is a lot of therapeutic benefit when used properly and there's a lot of substances that do alter consciousness and there can be some harms that come from there. Maybe you want to speak into that a little bit.

Yeah, definitely. We've, we've termed that the Polan Effect. It's named after Michael Polan who wrote oh yes, how to Change youe Mind. It was published in 2019. You know, he's a best New York Times best selling author and a baby boomer, right. And he wrote this book starting as a skeptic in psychedelics, right. Because he was hearing about people having these, you know, life changing experiences from it. I think he tried it once in college or a couple of times and he, you know, was. Came to it as, as someone who didn't believe it. And by the end of the book, he's tried basically every psychedelic drug there is and, and completely, you know, changed his mind about it. And I think it's been a really influential book for, you know, many generations, but especially the boomers, you know, who grew up with all this propaganda and the drug war and Nancy Reagan and, and so I mean, I think with, with all of these things, right. We saw the same thing with, with cannabis. And cannabis is now legal for anyone over 21 here in California, where I am. And so for when, when cannabis first became legal, or let's go back to before it was completely legal, right? There was concerns about, you know, children getting their hands on cannabis or them not testing for mold or pesticides. All these things were something that was done under the Medical Cannabis Act. You know, any, any quality grower, you know, worth their salt is going to be testing their products. But what I found really kind of hypocritical was as soon as legalization passed, everyone who owned a dispensary or legal product, you know, was going out and saying, now the first thing you want to do is never buy anything from outside the recreational market. You know, whereas, you know, a year ago, two years ago, they're like, you know, you got to try the medical market. It's really great. It's safe. It's nothing to worry about. And so I think that, you know, you really have to look at, you know, where the negative news is coming from. And ironically now a lot of that negative propaganda around illicit cannabis is coming from the same people that were fighting for the legalization of cannabis and blame them. You know, the taxes are pretty onerous, and it's tough to, to survive in a business in California, especially when 90 plus percent of cannabis sales are still happening outside of that legal framework. But when I was just at south by Southwest with some other panelists and we were talking about the Mushroom Underground and like, psychedelic entrepreneurship, and so that day in Denver, when I went to the Mushroom Pop Up, a couple of the people that I met that actually organized the event are a group called Oakland Hyphae and Hyphae Labs.

Right.

And so when I was in cannabis early on, I started in 2008, professionally. And at the time when you would go into a dispensary, there were edibles, right? Brownies, root beer, gummies, but there was no, like, standard unit of measurement. So if you wanted to know, like, how strong this is going to be, how. How much medicine is in there, what's going to be the effect, you'd read it and it would say like, 10 skull and crossbones, and you're like, I don't know what that means, but it sounds scary.

Yeah.

And consequently, almost everybody who's ever tried a cannabis edible, especially, especially prior to, you know, these legal frameworks, you know, they have the experience. I was like, yeah, I had a little bit. I didn't really feel it, so I had a lot more. And then it was way too much. And so my career to legitimize Plant medicine has always been about making it more like medicine. And so I was only, you know, 24 years old, but me and my partners started a trade association for cannabis edibles manufacturers. And in 2010, legalization was first on the ballot here in California. And edibles were kind of on the chopping block because regulators weren't sure how to regulate them. Right. It's. Cannabis is one thing, food is another thing. With its own set of regulations, how can you regulate, you know, this hybrid sort of product? And so as the trade association got all the biggest edibles manufacturers together and we went to one of the first labs, was a lab in Oakland called Steep Hill. And we called him and said, hey, we want to create some standardization in edibles and labels. And the first rule of our. Of our club is you got to test every batch of edibles. You know, what do you think? Can we have the meetings at your place? And they're like, they were so excited because testing wasn't a requirement. They're just starting out. They're trying to get business. They're like, they rolled out the red carpet for us. And that's why today, you know, edibles say 10 milligrams of 9 THC and you can really control your dose. And so when I met Reggie Tomas Ian of. Of Hyphae labs, I was asking them the same thing. I was like, so when you test a mushroom, what is the variance of potency that you find? You know, and they say, well, you know, the potency can range from 0.1% actives to, you know, 2%. That's a. That's a variation of 20x, you know. And so right now, on. On most underground mushroom products, you know, they're labeled as 3.5 or 4 grams of mushrooms per chocolate. But that, you know, gives you some sense, but not a true sense of the strength of those mushrooms. And so I see, like, the next, you know, step even I bet you will happen in the. In the underground market before it's legally required to do so. Is people testing their product and showing precisely not just how much mushrooms is in there, but exactly how much psilocybin or psilocin or biocystin. All of the actual actives that are going to give you that effect.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it really came full circle, especially since these guys were out of Oakland as well. You know, Oakland also one of the first cities that was. Was decriminalized. So it allowed them to, you know, legally be able to test these mushrooms. Right. They're not buying. They're not selling them, they're just doing research. And, and yeah, and years later I ended up sharing the stage with, with Reggie Harris, who's the head of that, that lab. And we're, we're friends now and, and kind of been doing this, this rolling tour with this panel.

Interesting. Well, so then it might be a good segue into kind of the plant medicine culture around like what, what are you seeing? I mean, this is, we are living at an exciting time. What are, what are you seeing? The influences of drug and plant medicine culture kind of infiltrating the, the general population here, you know, because it is a, a pretty big wave that is happening. And when we're talking about consciousness expanding medications, plants, I mean, you know, I'm a naturopathic physician and Chinese medicine practitioner and it always, I always found it odd that we've outlawed plants and plant medicines that are naturally growing on the planet. So if we, we just talk about that aspect or this, that component, then we're going to circle back around into mushroom specific nootropics, brain health, brain regeneration, longevity. But maybe let's just touch on this, this component as a talking point here.

Yeah, well, because of the, the move now where it seems mushrooms are on the path that cannabis led, first starting with decriminalization, then legal for medical use in states like Oregon and Colorado. And then the, the media attention it's getting between Michael Poland's book Fantastic Fungi on Netflix has been really influential. And then, you know, everybody from Joe Rogan to Gwyneth Paltrow to Prince Harry talking about their own psychedelic mushroom experiences. I think that that is, is part of what is making it more, well, more of a curiosity for people. And then I think it's leading to a lot more of the research. There's multiple companies that have raised hundreds of millions of dollars towards coming up with, with novel compounds that they can patent and sell to pharmaceutical industries. And so a ton of research is going back into, you know, how different psychedelics are affecting the brain with serious issues like treatment resistant depression, ptsd. My most recent article for Rolling Stone is about how Joe Biden just approved $10 million for veterans for Active duty, Veterans for psychedelic treatment for ptsd. I think between the celebrities pushing it and then the science backing what, you know, shamans and, and plant medicine, you know, legacy people have, have known or experienced for, for generation. I think it's, you know, just being able to affect a larger audience. You know, my, my dad, for example, right. He's, he's fascinated by the science behind it and Proving it right. There's nothing his, his hippie son could tell him that's going to change his mind about it. But if Johns Hopkins puts a report out about it, then, you know, that's something that, you know he'll listen to.

It's got some more legitimacy. And you know that PTSD is a recalcitrant condition which, with not a lot of great treatment options as of yet. And then you get, you know, some of these early research projects showing 77% effectiveness, you know, of total resolution for, for vets, that's pretty miraculous and definitely something to look at. So I'm excited for them. I'm cautiously optimistic. I'm a radical optimist at heart. But we did have round one. I always used to look back at the 70s of the 60s. I missed the decade and now come full circle. Been medical director of Harmony Event Medicine of helping with rock med scenarios out in the wilds of festivals of Oregon. Can prescribe, legally prescribe psychedelics in my centers and then have this burgeoning culture component around interest level and desire. You know, there's a, there's a lot of folks looking at mushrooms in particular microdosing functional mushrooms with the new nootropic benefits as well. You know, we have Paul Stamets out there that I've seen lecture for 25 years now in the naturopathic community now coming out on some really large stages. Maybe you want to speak into, into the mushroom component, functional mushrooms and then maybe that micro dosing component for people that may be interested in.

Well, yeah, like, like you said, functional mushrooms have been used for thousands of years inherent in, in Chinese medicine. And I, I liken the kind of, the shine or the, the wave of interest that functional mushrooms are getting akin to CBD's interest as marijuana or cannabis was legalizing. You know, I got, I got calls from a lot of people in my family. You know, I was like kind of the black sheep of the family until marijuana became more accepted, legalized. And there was a piece in 2014 on CNN with Sanjay Gupta talking about CBD and talking about how, you know, it has a ton of the benefits of cannabis but without the psychoactive effects. And that particular piece of media, I think was one of the biggest things for, for the CBD industry and just again, just another person that was legitimizing it in so many people's minds. You know, just really credible source. And so as more and more studies and people talking about microdosing and the, the neuroplasticity or the neurogenesis which for. If your listeners don't know that means like actual formation of new brain cells and new neural connections is something that the science is showing microdosing psilocybin does for people. Similarly, lion's mane, which is a legal functional mushroom, also has this effect on the brain. And Paul Stamets himself suggests taking lion's mane and microdoses at the same time because of their synergistic effects, working together. And I liken it to kind of forging a new path through the woods. You know, I have a little bit of experience with microdosing, a ton of experience with, with lion's mane. And in my experience, you know, I think one of the reasons why psychedelic tests are not completely conclusive is for a couple of reasons. One, the people who take the placebo know for sure they got the placebo not seeing colors or having new revelations. But two, also, I was talking to an investor who invested in Biomed and he was just really trying to have me explain why is some of these psilocybin companies not doing as well or their tests are inconclusive. And I said, well, with pharmaceuticals, they're really designed to take your brain from one point to another point. It's supposed to change your mind in exactly this way. Whereas. Whereas psilocybin is more of a tool. Right. And so it gives you the enhanced awareness, I think, to be able to break out of, you know, deeply ingrained habits or things that we're used to in not just like, you know, our, our rituals of, of going for a run or, or journaling, but in just the way we actually think and, and process thought. But that still leaves it up to the, the consumer to make that change. Right. There's, it's not that psilocybin, you take this and then you're gonna like the Grateful Dead. You're gonna, you know, immediately start to, you know, finger paint. You know, it doesn't make people act all one way. Right. Rather, it sort of reveals the things that are, are holding ourselves back or, you know, self imposed misery, for lack of a better word. And, and you know, allow you the, the opportunity to make that change for yourself.

That's well put. It's like, it's kind of like it's an inside job and it sheds the light on it. Yeah, yeah. Which is hard. You know, I think I've seen that in the ketamine industry where venture capital has gotten in. And you know, these are sacred plants. I would put them in that category and to utilize them in a, in a Non heartfelt manner. I don't think you get as good as of results. And so it's, it's an interesting way. The way that I kind of talk about it is there's a new economy potential and not just on dollars and cents, but a way to bring heart back into transactions and bring that relational action back of our heart connections in commerce, which is really tough to do. Right. It's hard to scale with heart. It's definitely easier to scale without hart and we see that kind of what is happening out there. And so by bringing in a consciousness aspect or an awareness with a very potent medicine or medicines, this whole class that's proving to be interesting. I'd say we're not doing a good job in the, in the ketamine world in Utah. What I've seen, it's. There's mills and they're just churning people through. There's not a lot of care taken. It's not just like, here, take this, you know, purple pill. And now all of your issues are gone. I mean there's still work to be done. Like you said, this is more of a tool, not an end product. And, and I think the care needs to be in that discussion at higher levels of how do we implement this? Rather than yes, it's got to make economic sense. But ultimately we're talking about healing people, healing themselves and giving them the right tool to do that. I think this is how they became outlawed in the, you know, late 60s, early 70s is that, you know, the, the powers that be did not like the. The creativity nor the thought processes that were arising from it. Of we're questioning authority, we're questioning our programming. We actually maybe we're not doing things the right way. Maybe this. It became too much for society at large to cope with. And so, you know, now it's kind of. It's back. Right. Like you, you wouldn't think that you can't get rid of a potent medicine like this. And so it is back and you know, kind of full circle into my discussion around it of like, you know, the caretaking of. Of this time and this transition because, you know, there are a lot of dollars on the line and that, you know, sometimes you will get bad actors in there just monopolizing or going for massive profit. I have nothing against massive profit, but at the. Not at the expense of people's health. Right. As a physician in the field and really bringing back and speaking into bringing the heart back into healthcare that matters. And so that's an interesting. I'm wondering if you're, you're hearing those discussions and some of the panels that you're on.

Yeah, that's, that's what the most interesting thing I find about the emerging market specifically of psychedelics. Right. Is like the most anti capitalist substance that naturally found on earth. And everybody's trying to find an opportunist way to, you know, sell their, their services of improving your life by, by draining your wallet. Right. It's, it's very meta, very, very 2024. And, and you know, I think that, that really trying to understand like who is really genuine with their intentions with these super strong medicines are, is very challenging.

Yeah.

And, and you're right, I mean it is hard to build a giant conglomerate that is, you know, well organized based on their, their morals and their values rather than, you know, how, how much money can we make? But you know, if there's any industry that I believe, you know, could do this, it's psychedelics. And I think it also comes down to the consumer, right? And I always say that the consumer is the person who has the power to fire CEOs, right. And that's, that's because they're making their, their decisions with their dollars. And so I hope that, that the consumer will continue to become more educated, I don't know, through use of taking the psychedelics or not, but that they're going to want to know where their products are coming from, that they're going to people that, you know, are good leaders in the industry. And so that's, that's something that a lot of my colleagues are working on, you know, testing products out there, kind of publishing it for the public to see, you know, what exactly is in these products that are, that are out circulating in the underground economy. And, and you know, people ask me too, like, well, you know, because I always say, you know, ask a friend, go, go to like, you know, kind of like going to your local farmer, right? If you want, you want to get the best produce, just go to the source. And people say, well, you know, I don't have that person in, in my community. Another great like online watchdog, real honest community is Reddit. And Reddit Psychedelics has, you know, tons of reviews. Basically you can look up almost any product or brand that's out there and you'll have a lot of, you know, anecdotal information and then citizen scientists too, like hey, I, I put this in my HPLC and I tell you exactly what's in there. And so they're, they're the community around mushrooms. I think is really what is, you know, it's what draws me to it. And I, the last thing I want is to see that that wholesome community co opted and changed because I really experienced that in cannabis. And, and I, I hope you know that, that because of the, you know, truly transformative, you know, conscious, expanding properties of these medicines that, that people will seek out companies that are true actors and that I think more and more the veil of phoniness or authenticity is really starting to slip. You know, maybe it's. We're all just so exposed to ads constantly that I think, you know, people more and more, more discerning about, you know, who is, who is a true actor.

Yeah, lovely. What? And so with you in emerging markets, going from cannabis now into mushroom Realm, you have a company called Micro Boost. And so what inspired you to, to get going on that?

Yeah, so I have a supplement manufacturing company called Custom Capsule Consultants. And part of my job is when people contact me, they'll either have an idea for a product that's fairly specific. I want ashwagandha, I want elderberry and you know, tell me something like that. Or they'll say, you know, I want a, a brain nootropic. And during the COVID pandemic years, that was like one of the most popular types of products that people were asking about. And consequently a ton of people were asking about Lion's Maneuver. And I got into, you know, a lot of formulating for different companies using lion's mane. And it got me really down the rabbit hole of, of mushroom supplements. And I learned a couple of really crucial things. One, you know, you got to have the right amount of lion's mane or any supplement for it to be effective. And there's, there's a common thing in the supplement industry that I've coined as fairy dusting. You know, where you put a little bit of ashwagandha, a little bit of lion's mane in there. You can put it, you know, in bold pack bold lettering on your packaging, but if it's not enough for an effective dosage, you know, it is just like sprinkling fairy dust on there. So got back and forth with some of these company owners and they're like, well, we don't care that that not enough lion's mane fits into a serving, you know, we just want to market it as such. I was like, aren't you spending a ton of money to convince people to try your product? You know, you just want them to, you know, hopefully just keep taking that placebo forever. Why not? Just give them a really good product, right? And then not only, like the amount of mushrooms in there, but where it's coming from as well. And so I learned that when you grow mushrooms commercially, they're grown on, like a starchy substrate, right? Like some sort of rice or grain or corn. And you inoculate that substrate with the liquid culture, the spores of the mushroom, and from there, the root system of the mushroom grows the mycelium, and it fills out that substrate, and the fruiting body is like the stem and the cap, the mushroom that actually protrudes from that culture. And so at Micro Boost and companies that use fruiting bodies, you know, with harvest that mushroom, powderize it in Micro Boost case, we make it into, like a concentrated version so we can get even more actives into small form factors like vegan soft gels or gummies or, you know, a single taste tablespoon of coffee. But what I learned was a ton of these bigger mushroom companies, again, like, going for profit rather than quality. They don't buy the fruiting body mushrooms. They buy the myceliated oats that are otherwise, you know, going to be thrown out by these mushroom farmers. And they pulverize the oats and put that into their, their capsules or their coffee and saying, oh, 600 milligrams of lion's mane. In fact, it's actually mostly dirt is what you're getting. It might be really high quality dirt, but if you're paying $40 or $50 for a mushroom coffee and that's what you're getting, that is just like complete bait and switch. Yeah, yeah, it was. It was born out of frustration with other companies, you know, just like cutting corners and me not agreeing with that and thinking, you know, if we could make a quality product, we convince people to try it, and then they actually have great effects from it. Hopefully they'll. They'll come back.

That's such a novel approach. You. You're making a good quality product that gets results.

Wow. Yeah. And so I wrote an article about this for Rolling Stone, too. And at first I thought, what could the difference be? I mean, there are some benefits to mycelium. There's some actives in mycelium that are good for your brain, studies show, but the actives are prevalent or present about the same amount that psilocybin is in mushrooms, which is 1% or less, on average, 0.5%. And originally, going into the research, I thought maybe fruiting bodies are 10 to 1 stronger than these myceliated oats. But when I actually Got down to it, it's more like 500 to 1.

Wow. Wow.

And so, you know, a challenge for fruiting body companies like ours, right, is you see two products on Amazon or the shelf at Whole Foods and it's this giant tub of mushroom capsules for $20. And then, you know, we have a 30 count soft gel that's 24.99. And it really is dwarfed by this, this big thing of capsules. But one of our soft gels actually has more than the entire container of, of their capsules.

How would the consumer know? Are you starting like, are you starting to label that, like these are 100 fruiting bodied mushrooms or how.

Definitely we, we put it on our packaging. Any mushroom company that's using fruiting bodies now now knows to put it on their packaging. And we're working with our supplier of functional mushrooms, who's actually petitioned the FDA to require truth and labeling on mushroom packaging and explaining to them Mycelium is not a mushroom, just like the roots of an apple tree are not an apple. And, and so they're, they're saying to the fda, hey, if you want to sell my ciliated oats, no problem. Just don't call it a mushroom. Don't put mushroom imagery on your packaging because it really is confusing the consumer and, and obfuscating what's in there. And you know, I saw CBD kind of go from like one of the fastest boom to bust industries I've ever been a part of. Yeah. And I don't want that to happen to mushrooms because I think same thing, a bunch of opportunists jumped in to making cbd, rushed to market, made a bunch of, you know, poor to mid quality products at best. People try these things and they're like, you know, I don't get the hype, you know, and then kind of rule out the ingredient altogether. And CBD is really powerful, as are most cannabinoids. But functional mushrooms, I think even more so. You know, the history of use in medicine is thousands of years and that's what I want. I want people to try Micro Boost. I would love if they bought Micro Boost, but really I think that mankind could benefit from taking a high quality functional mushrooms and, and then some people's cases. Psychedelic mushrooms too.

Indeed. Awesome. Well, I think we're, we'll pull it into the station with that. Rob, I think. Is there any last parting closing messages of inspiration you'd like to share with our listeners and viewers?

Well, I mean, one other source of, of Micro Boost was from a company retreat that we did and we did a little like Shark Tank style pitch where, you know, we had different people from different departments, you know, whether marketing or production sales team. And it was, it was from that Shark Tank like little challenge that the name Micro Boost came, that some of the formulas and you know, for any entrepreneurs out there or people, you know, working in companies like, I found that, that opening the, the floor to people's ideas, whether they're the ones packaging gummies or writing, you know, the, the marketing manifesto. A lot of people have a lot of ideas about what they're doing, especially if this is their full time job. And so for, for anybody out there, you know, beating their head against the wall trying to come up with a good idea, I'd say, you know, just ask the people around you and maybe even the ones that you least expect will have the best idea.

I love it. Thank you so much for that. That's beautiful. All right, you all listening out there in our viewer land. If you like today's show, definitely give us a like and go out, give us a five star review and write down what you learned out of the show today and share it. This is coming from us to you. It's not coming from the top down. We're bringing this information direct to you. This is a new and emerging field and it's a very fun time to be alive. So thank you all. We wouldn't be doing it without you. Thank you, Rob, for coming on the show.

Thanks, Greg.