EP 66: WTH ?!? Sexual Health During COVID and Beyond with Dr. Cari One

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Welcome to what the Health and independent approach to your health span. Have you noticed how our healthcare system may not have your best interest in mind? Join Dr. Eckel in this fun and sometimes disturbing exploration of the state of healthcare and what it means for you. Now, here's your host, Dr. Eckel.

Welcome back everybody. I am Dr. Greg Eckel and this is what the Health and we are coming at you this week with another very important topic around Covid and this is sexual health during COVID and Beyond. I've got a great guest on today, Dr. Kerry O'. Neill. She's a holistic practitioner, a sex and relationship positive wellness coach and sex educator for clients around the globe. She's earned a PhD in human sexuality, is an EFT practitioner and is certified as a clinical sexologist and sex coach. She helps people overcome troublesome beliefs and behaviors related to sex and intimacy. The emphasis of her work is sexual health awareness education and coaching on sex positive topics and behaviors. She works with human behavior, sexual and non sexual aspects of that. Her bias as a clinician and the focus of her PhD work was sexual well being for the human condition. And aren't we all in that? I want to welcome you, Dr. O'. Neill. Thank you so much for coming on the show today with this really timely topic with regards to sexual health and what is going on in the world with this pandemic. So I'm curious for you what you are seeing in your practice, like what is going on out there. I mean, obviously we've been speaking to all of the stressors that are happening and we know stress is, it's a libido kill, right? I mean, you know, when you talk to busy professionals that's always an issue. So we throw in this extra pandemic front. People aren't even going away from each other anymore. So what are you seeing in your practice and why this title? Why did you want to speak to this one in particular?

Thank you for having me. I think it's the elephant in the living room and any, any tow rope that can be thrown out to any of us in any way is a help. Yeah, it is.

Yeah, it's such a, it's such a big quality of life component. And what we're seeing is that Sexual desire is waning for couples, Right? You're seeing that in the research and in polling of people with their kind of sexual activity. So why do you. What do you think is going on here?

Fear and quicks you right down to our lizard brain and survival. There's the bottom line. We can build up from that. But the bottom line is, I don't know what your particular fear is, but everybody's cage has gotten shook this year. If you had it together because you're an endocrinologist and you understand such things, economics, family dynamics, interpersonal dynamics, all the way down to existential grief, okay, I mean, that's a lot for me to capture. But everybody's cage has gotten shook for me. In my practice, I generally speak to the needs, the wants, the desires of. I call it non traditional relationships, swingers, lifestyle, open relationship people. They come as well as traditional. And they've been looking for, how can I make sex better? How can I make it more meaningful? And if you're working with me, we work all the way back through the beliefs that you hold, right? Typical fears, what you believe is true and possible for you and the things that keep you stuck. That was garden variety. My practice prior to Covid.

Let's talk about COVID now.

The dynamic has changed. In spring, I saw more people with. Okay, let me say this. When you get your shape, your cage shook, as we have around the globe. Survival, survival, survival and lizard brain. What you'll get with me is brain science and bedroom skill sets all the way down to the survival. So people are really looking at what matters. And prior to getting to that in the spring, they were hitting their hot button. Their isms, right. Their go to drug of choices. Sex is a really popular go to drug of choice.

Nothing wrong with that.

But you know what they were finding? What I saw in my practice was.

More suicide and alcoholism and drug.

I referred more people out to AA and Narconon and I never get those cases. Then we kind of morphed into pushing on the sexual. And so to hit your question initially, we are together more now. Covid quarantines.

Even the people that are in open relationships had to.

We called it select your quarantine. But familiarity. We are interesting creatures and the human condition, we like novelty as much as we like safety. I've been talking about safety. So out in the wild is not safe. So what do you want to do? Be safe in your podcast or in your twosome or in your home, even with yourself. And then after a while, you get bored and even Though you're together, there is no desire, because desire needs novelty, desire needs space. And that's one of the big reasons that people are now, even though they're together, boner killers for both of them.

Yeah. So that teeter totter between the safety and familiarity and then the novelty and difference. Right. So what. I mean, I guess let me back up one bigger meta discussion around. You put in the bio about sex positivity. And maybe some of my viewers aren't familiar with that term or what that means. And so what does that mean when we start into this discussion? Because there's a few things to kind of unpack and explore together here. And for those that are in monogamous relationships and those that are in open relationships and everything in between.

So whether you are with one partner, no partner, or many partners to all of the titles that you just gave me, Greg, this discussion, I think is still relevant because what's happening in Covid and what's happening with our minds and our bodies and our energetics, it's all relevant now. How you build that out is going to change. So, yes, sex positivity, that's the new word. And I'm also going to give you another one since you're on the cutting edge of things. We used to call it rape culture. Then along came MeToo era. I'm telling you, it's consent culture now. Consent culture. Nobody's really saying that, but we've got to start doing it so that 10 years from now they'll call it, hey, that's when we turn the corner into consent culture.

But I. Oh, I really like that. I have actually been a big proponent probably over the last decade that consent is sexy. Like, that is. You know, that is the. Maybe that's the tagline to the consent culture. Right. I mean, that is very important.

That's funny.

I have a button around here somewhere that says consent is sexy. And I was playing in a dungeon in la and the dungeon master came over and he said, looked at my button and he goes. And I said, yeah, you know, like, my button can send a sexy. And he leaned in and he goes, it's mandatory here, little darling. Just so you know. I'm sorry, I don't know if I could say that or not.

Yes, you can. We do. Sometimes I swear like a sailor on here. And my audience is used to it. And you don't really ever hear that, really, in a general discussion with folks either. I was in a dungeon in la. Yeah, there you go.

Yeah. When I said to the human condition, no matter how you play, no matter how you express yourself, whether you're monogamous with one partner or you play with many. My background is the buffet and I really wanted to understand what keeps people healthy and vibrant over a lifetime, regardless of how you express yourself. So my credentials put me in a lot of different places and a dungeon in LA is one of them.

That's awesome. So on. So sex positivity then, if we'll speak into that one specifically then.

Okay.

Because that's not for any orientation or any relationship configuration. It just, it's a broader term.

Right. And I was just trying to give you some context that we moved in and as MeToo has pushed the agenda for consent culture, sex positivity is what you're going to start hearing now. It's a, it's a term that's loosely defined and continuing to be defined. But what it means as a whole.

Is a full respect and regard for sex as a piece of your well being. Sex. Owning your sexuality, expressing your sexuality in healthy ways for you and consensual. Since we brought that up.

Yeah.

That it is every bit as important as your mental or emotional or physical health. And so with that in mind, holding that value, it just opens so many doors for you to explore. And that might even be changing your groove, the way you carry yourself, what you choose to wear and what you choose not to wear and beliefs about. At this age, we stop doing that. And in this culture we don't and you can't and it's not okay. We're breaking the rules on a lot of things because they just don't make sense and they sure don't make people happy.

Yeah. It is such a huge piece of quality of life. When I'm talking to my patients over the last 20 years, you know, it is, it's such a big thing and everybody has their own needs and it is on how to get your needs met consensually, but also to be able to discuss it. And it's been such a taboo topic for so long. I'm wondering on, you know, we kind of talk about. Or you gave me some notes in preparation talking about. Individuals must create what they want and need related to intimacy. So how, how do you start this, I guess exploration with folks like we're here on a podcast. We're talking about, you know, in particular in a pandemic when stress levels and fear are up. And those are kind of boner killers, as you said there. And you know, it does really kill libido, it kills sexual desire. How do you get people kind of engaged in this and in their partnerships or in their relationships and their pods? Where do we go from there?

Okay, that's good.

So wherever you are is where you're.

At, and we're staring down the barrel of a long winter in quarantine. But the things that you're getting pushed to do now, you're going to use the rest of your life. I think you should. So first understand and take an inventory of what do we have? What do we have to work with.

Many times what's come up, especially during.

Quarantine, is there's no room to mess around. And I don't mean that in the fun way. I mean, people can't get distracted anymore with ancillary activities because now we're pretty much at home. So understand people are looking at each other across the dinner table saying, we are going to have to have some conversations because we're in this, and I'm not going to do it if I don't like it, which is the relationship part of it. We need to really talk about the elephants in the living room. And many times. Here's a takeaway. I'll tell you. You know what? The number one Covid or not? I think the number one mistake that people make in their relationships that nobody is talking about is they don't adapt their relationship. So I'll just start making some notes here. Adaptability, on balance.

We get married and we have a certain set of rules, or we get into a relationship. Doesn't matter to me. Married or not, with these rules. And then life changes. We might get older, we might have children, our jobs might change, our education might change. Okay, everybody's adapting. We're getting education. We're buying new items. We're maybe moving houses, getting bigger houses. But you know what? They're not adapting. They're not adapting their sex life. And two young kids that come together with the idea of who they are, how their bodies work, and how sex should or shouldn't be. No problem with that. On the wedding and the negotiations when you start. But the mistake is one partner or the other will say.

Don'T want to.

Rock the boat on that one.

Don't want to ask.

Don't want to be looking like the weirdo. I don't want to be the wrong one. I'll just keep it status quo. And nothing is status quo. And that's the beginning of the wane of desire, I think. So what can the first person. What can we do during COVID You know what? Let's start skilling ourselves up to have hard conversations. And the hard conversations are about. I'll just stop right there. If you're already thinking of one and you're feeling that zing of fear, you know you got one or two in your back pocket already. It would be a rare, rare individual or couple that doesn't. But you know what? Here's the next thing. Maybe you don't have to be bored out of your mind or disgruntled.

But.

It is quarantine, and it is winter, and we don't have any other distractions. So how about we shake things up? How about we change? How about we investigate things? We've always been curious to bring in the novelty. I think that's a good idea.

Okay, so that is so. All right. Sitting around the dinner table or in the living room, and the couple or the partnership or the unit, they've been kind of in their groove of maybe dysfunction or not addressing this. What are some, like, conversation starters? Like, where do you start with that conversation?

Okay, so I would say first, start with your pain. So privately, where are those hot buttons? Where are those pain points for you? Just variety of sex. Let's just go with just an easy one for your global audience. Maybe you want to change things up in the bedroom. Is that a fair enough one to talk about? Yeah, maybe. Maybe you've been kissing the same person, and truth be told, you've never enjoyed the way they kiss. And every time you see it on the movies, you want to be kissed like that, hard, up against the wall, thrown down, whatever your thing is.

Right?

And it could be as simple as, I want to do something different and I want you to kiss me differently. I want to feel what that feels like. So I actually have a formula for it because it is difficult to know how do you say it with whatever communication skills you have, and more importantly, how do you listen to it? So my college kids, they. So they started. I started hearing him say, af. Af. That's hard af.

Right.

So does everybody know what that means? The first word is as, and the F is the other one that Greg likes to say. Like a sailor.

There it is.

Yeah.

Something hard as fuck is something hard af. So I have a hard AF conversation formula where the speaker gets the A, B, C. It's the process of A to F. It's the A to F process. So you can remember it. But yeah. So the speaker has the A and.

The B and the C, and then.

The listener has the D, the E, and the F. And I'm telling You what? If you guys can get practiced on that, I don't mind laying it out, but if you can get practiced on that, on the easy stuff, you can talk about the kids, you can talk about money, you can talk about things in the bedroom. Did you want to hear the A?

Yeah.

Okay, if you're the speaker. Okay.

If you're the speaker, you're thinking to yourself, right? You're feeling the pain of it. I don't want to do it. A is for another A. All the things I'm afraid of, right? So get a piece of paper, write that down. I have this thing I want to say, like, start, like, trying something new sexually. A. I'm afraid she's going to think I'm a weirdo. I'm afraid she's going to think that it's time to break up. I'm afraid she'll go to shame all the A's. Write them down, collect them. B, you're still the speaker. B is but because. So then you say, but because I love you, darlin, because I want a vibrant marriage. Because this is gonna be a long winter together. Ain't got nothing to do. I think it's a good idea, right, if the speaker will do the fears and do the why he or she wants to have the conversation. Psychologically, it bookends what he's about or she's about to say what you get with me. Sex, psychology, relationships. Lots of psychology going into it. So the A is I'm afraid of xyz. The B is. But because of this, this and that, I want to have this conversation and bring up this hard thing, the C. It's like the meat in the sandwich. So in conclusion, the hard thing I have to say is A bang, right? What you just did psychologically was bookend the message that you just pitched to the listener. That's the A, the B, and the C for the speaker. Now the D, E, and F for the AF process is the listeners. Again, psychology and brain science. The minute the listener is walking down the road listening to the A's, I'm afraid you're gonna break up with me. The listener goes, ah, that amygdala fight or flight is firing off, right? So now it's the speaker's turn to reply or shoot. The listeners turn to reply in the amygdala. So let's hit the D's, man. The D is I take an inventory of all the things that are going on. I don't want to hear this. I don't like being here. I don't even know what you're saying.

How about.

Damn it. All right. Getting that anger out and inventoried and letting the speaker know. Yeah, you're going to have to hear it. You just will. Also helps the speaker not be defensive right out of the gate. Helps everybody. So get it out. Take the inventory on the Ds again, the bookend piece, for me, it's just really important for your psychology. So that's the D. The E is.

Take a deep breath.

And how can we expand? It's like a knot in this chain. When you pull and you expand the knot, you pull on any of it, you put some room in there, right? And you loosen up the knot a little. Well, how a listener to a hard conversation can band and get their brain and all of the. Their energetic system to get on board is to expand by asking questions. So after. I don't want to hear this. I don't like being in these shoes. I don't know what you're saying after all of that. Then take a deep breath. How do we expand? How do we get you from your amygdala to your frontal cortex, where you have half a chance of. Of finding your saner brain and making anything out of what you're listening to. Ask questions. So how you expand is. Ask questions. What does this mean for the family? What are you trying to tell me? Could even be a fair enough question so you can hear it again. Where are we going with this? What do you want from me?

What?

Where.

Where does this leave X, Y, and Z? Right. If you will just stay stuck in the questions for a little bit, I'm telling you again, you're going to book into yourself as the listener, and you're going to get a chance to settle down. You're starting to help your neural system settle down because questions put you up here where our rational thinking is. And then after the questions at the.

E.

The F is the framework. Now, I need to tell you at E, with all of those hard questions, sometimes they can go smoothly. If you have two people who are skilled, sometimes when you ask all the questions and nobody has any of the answers, and there could probably be some shame on both sides, depending on what is being said, you could hold a timeout. You know what? I don't know. I don't know. But what you've done as the listener is, believe me, you've pulled on all of that. So you either take a timeout until you can come back and speak in a civil tone and with less emotion maybe, but when you do come back, it's time for the F and the listener. I've tried this several ways. If the speaker is the one to do the F. Done.

Yeah.

I think by far and away from field practice, the listener who's the one who got handed the turd sandwich, you know, probably if it. Or it wouldn't be a hard thing to talk about. The listener's the one to start on the framework. And the framework could go something like, I heard what you said, and I still don't X. I still don't understand why you want it, but you're my partner. We're stuck in the house, and I'm willing to explore some things. Would you be willing to hear what I'm a hard. No.

1.

Can we make a list? Make a list on where my hard nose are and where your interest lies. And could we do that right if we're talking about exploring some sexual skill sets.

Yeah.

So framework. And then, of course, the speaker gets to build in the framework too. But there you go. A to F. Change something hard. There's the pieces.

Wow, that's a really cool. So, all right, so let's dig into these because that is easy. Alphabet. But in practicality, like, you're saying there's a couple pitfalls along the line there. And so I'm just imagining folks that have kind of been shelled up nine months now and, you know, maybe the relationship has been on, you know, on familiar familiarity grounds. There's been. Right. The flame is kind of dismal at best. It's maybe not there. You know, it takes some courage to get out of kind of the rut. Right. I mean, there's. You're exposing yourself. You're getting very vulnerable. You're saying, like, hey, things aren't the way that I want them to be. I'm wondering if we could do something else or getting into this. So, like, the first three, you're kind of putting it out there, hopefully not in a blaming manner. So there is some. There's like some skill sets that I think folks have to have before they get into the discussion or have some support. And I'm really glad that you're offering. We'll get your guide in the show. Notes here of your free ebook to kind of as a refresher for folks. So just know I don't have it posted at live time, but we will have that in the show. Notes for folks listening later. So looking at it. So we got the A is on the kind of the conversation, which is the afraid. What are you afraid of happening? If you bring this conversation up. Right? So do you have. I'm just curious because we do have some time to kind of talk through this and I think it is a really, it's an awesome framework. So thank you so much, Dr. Carey, for bringing this up. Because that communication, I mean, communication and consent. So consent is sexy. Communication is really the fabric of our life. So being able to talk about it, I mean, obviously a lot of emotions can come up, especially if stuff has been swept under the rug for so long in relationship, you know, So I think maybe let's couch it in. Okay. Somebody that's been in a relationship for a while, how do they keep it on? Kind of spicy and. Or the novelty, right. To keep that desire aspect up in what's comfortable with them. I'm sure some folks listening are saying, you know, this doesn't really apply to me, Dr. Greg and Dr. Carey, but overall this framework works for all kinds of hard as fuck conversations. And, but you know, with our topic today, I want to keep it on the, on the sexual health because it is such a quality of life. And I'm seeing, I see long term couples, I see new couples, I see couples in open relationships. I see, you know, one partner in a, in the couple in an open relationship. And I mean with consent amongst all, you know, so with, you know, one partner is kind of not sexual and the other one is sexual. So they decided, hey, why don't you go outside of the home in the relationship? So, you know, there's all kinds of different configurations here, but in the framework of this discussion, let's say that they've been together a long time. The desire, kind of that early, early excitement is definitely long gone. Maybe they had kids. Kids are growing up, coming out of school. So there, you know, maybe let's say it's the woman at the dinner table wanting to talk to her husband who's kind of just kind of done the same routine for 15 years. How does she bring it up without, you know, it's a sensitive topic. Right? Like my needs aren't getting met. Honey, you know, what do we do here?

Okay, yeah. I'll give you a better one. Your audience cares about health.

Yes.

And they may or may not today think about sexual health. But I'll tell you what happens when with your health. Menopause, Right. Prostate issues, aging, injury and low testosterone. Oh my gosh. Hormone, hormone stew on both sides of the fence on this does not have a gender bias anymore. Oh, yeah, that, that's a difficult conversation because the one person here I'm a female. We'll just go menopause, right? She's already head spinning. What is the matter with me? Ain't nothing working like it used to, right? Okay. Congratulations. You might think you have it dialed in, but time marches on. Bodies change, health changes. And this is why you want to have a difficult conversation. Because the person who's impaired. Impaired for whatever reason, no fault of their own, is changing the dynamics in the bedroom. Now, how do we deal with that? What about him? Prostate cancer. Wouldn't be the first couple that I dealt with where he does not have his ability to get erect anymore. But he does not want to lose the relationship long term with the kids and the assets and everything.

What do we do?

So the easy thing is.

I believe the easy. The thing.

No, the thing that never changes, but it's not done, is the relationship should always be being negotiated.

Right.

That goes right in with adaptability. Kids. You have children. And now the last thing she's interested in is being jumped on or feeling sexual again. There's always a hard conversation in the room. And they grow into the elephants in the living room if you don't have them.

Yeah, right.

So, number one, when something shifts, whether you wanted it to shift or not, accept that. Oh, just like if we have to move to a new part of the country for a new job or get a bigger house because our family's getting bigger. You know what? It's okay to talk about whatever this hard thing is that you've got. So get rid of the bugaboo and sex and changing sexual parameters. I'm giving everyone permission to bring it up tonight.

All right.

How do they do it? Skill sets. This is why the A to F formula is so good. Because many times. Let's take a popular one. How about weight gain? Also a kind of a Covid concern. I don't know about you, but it's hard to get 10,000 steps in around the same house.

Yeah.

Yeah, Right. So things are packing on. Weight gain can be a really difficult one to approach. So instead of saying to your partner, hey, you know what? There's nothing about you that I find desirable anymore. I think you should lose some weight.

Right.

If you lose weight, then I'll. My body will do what it needs to, and then it's game on again.

Yeah.

No skill. And also, more than anything, the minute you went down that rabbit trail, the listener could not hear what you were trying to say because he or she went right to shame.

Yeah.

So the A to F. I'm not.

I'm kidding. Excuse me.

I'm not kidding telling you, if you follow the A's and you say. And you write out ahead of time, babe, I am afraid we'll break up. I'm afraid I'm gonna make him mad. I'm afraid I'm gonna be in the doghouse for a week now just for bringing up a need that I have. Yeah, when you say that just like that, I'm afraid I'm gonna alienate you and hurt your feelings. Believe me, their amygdala is firing. Yeah, but when you put in the B. But because I love you and because I care about our health and because I hold the dream of emerging from this house one day.

Right.

And because I want to rapture you, and I just want to. I need to tell you this hard thing, and that is, sweetheart, I'm a very visual person, and I have loved this sexy groove you've had, and I think it's gotten lost with the pandemic panic and everything. And I. I feel like. I feel terrible for bringing it up, but I'm in the game. I want to.

I want to.

As your partner, how can I support you with this? That's also not an easy one either, because sometimes people are on medication, right?

Yeah. Well, it's loaded on a lot of different levels. That one in particular, on the weight front coming from your partner. And it is very loving the way that you had it in the A to F scenario, because that could really come off really hurtful. And, you know, the shame, blame, and guilt is basically the three kind of the old system dying, as I see it. And we're really going, you know, more towards more love and abundance and oneness. So looking at, you know, getting out of that, the shame, blame, guilt, and really, it's on, like, team us. Like, how do we get through this? Like, I. This is what's going on for me. And so I needed to bring it up this way, in this loving manner because, you know, I'm committed to us really making it. I think it's a really great way. So then the c. So in that scenario, getting into the. You know, they basically say, well, I'm not as turned on anymore. I noticed. You know, like, I'm worried about your health. You know, Then you turn it over to the listener. The listener then gets to have kind of get their amygdala out, like, what? Just got fired.

Right.

So they can. They're. They're gonna bring it up, and so whatever. I mean, I think it's a. I like that in the framework in that it's. It's just a response. Right. It's an amygdala deep brain response that is happening for everybody. And so you just might as well just share it. Right.

Because the conversations being had, whether you're speaking or not. Right, Right. You go to bed, and I guess in this example, he. I'll just pick. She. She. She knows that she's not as attractive, maybe even to herself, and so she's hiding. And then he may or may not come to bed at the same time because he doesn't want to have to deal with if she's turned on and then he's not turned on. And how about that? The whole thing. The whole thing is a conversation already being had. So by bringing it up with your words is actually more of a help than letting it grow. And here's another idea. I am the first to say, don't get too far from the beach.

What I mean by that is it's.

Easier to lose £5 than it is £55. When you see your partner growing. When you see your partner growing a.

Little bit better to say, hey, you know what?

The COVID snacking has got to stop. I said that. I said that myself. Hey, the COVID snacking's gotta stop or I'm not gonna fit in these. How's it going for you? Do we. I, for one, want to speak up and change. Whatever. Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So.

So I want to say, don't get too far from the beach. And it's better to speak now. For the couples that have been in the game a long time and they have got a lot of elephants they need to address, it will be difficult until you get practiced at this.

Yeah.

But the conversation's being had. Even though your mouth isn't moving.

I love that. And you know what? I think that is a big piece of illness because I think we tend to. In the human predicament, we think, well, if I'm not saying out loud, it's not happening. But this is underlying issues that I see with so many people is that their emotions are stuck in their body. The body and its inherent wisdom is trying to protect us from it. And it'll actually start putting weight on, you know, to, like, protect ourselves. Like, oh, I'm going to just stuff my emotions with my food. I'm going to get my dopamine hits with the ice cream. For me, it's chubby, hubby. I can't bring it in my house. And, you know, it is. It's along those lines. Like, I know for me, when I start craving pizza, it's like, what am I not addressing in my life that I'm craving this pizza? Because it was like, represents this, like, you know, youth and freedom component for me. Or, you know, I'm like, really bummed out, so I'm going to eat some pizza or something.

So.

Well, I also really enjoy pizza, just for the record. But anyways, you know, it is that aspect of if you're having it up here, those are important words. Like, I like to say, this is a dangerous neighborhood to go into by yourself. So you've got a partner or you're in partnership. Having this conversation with your loved ones is so essential for your health, to your wellbeing, your sexual health. I mean, really, when you look at sexual health, it is. It's the output of you being in a healthy state of being. Right. It is a natural state to be in. Right. That expression, that coming together in union, you know, the disappearance of the universe, all of those things that can happen is so beautiful. But we've got to. We gotta be coming at it like, in that. In this framework where we're able to talk about what our needs are. Right?

Exactly. When you find poor behavior lying, something's going on on the down low. A withhold, snarky. A lot of that's been going on since we've been quarantined. When you find poor behavior, look for the need not being met. Telling you there's generally a need not being met somewhere.

Got it.

And having hard conversations and getting practiced and skilled at it makes those needs easier to find and easier to work through.

So we got to this point in the E in the framework. Right. So I like that exhale. Like, okay. The listener just kind of shared what their limbic system, the alarms were saying, like, hey, this xyz. Or maybe I have similar things that I want to talk about. But right now we're going to. What? You brought this up. Thank you. I'm going to exhale. I'm going to ask some clarifying questions around this. Like, you know, what about it? Like, you know where. You know what I don't understand? Like, I'm only five pounds up. Like, how can that be such an issue?

Okay, timeout, timeout.

Go back to the pitfalls. Thank you for bringing this up on the D. Yeah. Where communication breaks down a lot is when the speaker says, well, I'm trying to say this. And the minute they get fire hosed back with the D's, I don't like hearing it. I don't Who? Don't tell me what my profile looks like. What about yours? Right. Let the sword fighting begin right there. That's why the ABC for the speaker. Thank you. You had your part. Yep. And then there's the D, the E, and the F. And speaker, even though.

You might be getting attacked, don't take the bait and start defending yourself and listener in case your speaker starts saying, well, I am in this example, well, I lost ten pounds last spring. What have you done?

Right.

Or whatever. Defensive maneuver.

The listener.

Because if you're both following the A to F process, which, by the way, if. When you start practicing this. Oh, yeah, you'll be the speaker and you'll be the listener many times over. So everybody gets to have their chance at listening. But the point is, if you are.

The listener of a hard message and.

The speaker starts defending, you get to say, I am not done yet. Please don't defend. This is me listening to the hard message that you had all the reason to bring up. And if you're in my house, it sounds something. It used to sound something like this. I'm just downloading my inventory so I.

Could get to my rational brain.

That's great.

Yeah, yeah. When you have a system like that, you're already. Don't look now, but you're teaching communication skills in a really proactive, in the wild field experience way.

Nice. So then we get into the. We get into the framework. Then after the clarifying questions of, like, okay, I heard what you said. I think I need support around when we're shopping on the cooking front, like, you know, I like to snack on X, Y, and Z. I think if I didn't bring them into the house, I wouldn't be eating them. I think we're in it together. I'm into it. Like, that arouses me as well. Like, if we're more fit, we're going to have more fun together. We're going to age gracefully together. All of these things want better sex, all of these aspects of it. So that kind of rounds it out. So then we get into kind of the more juicy part of the conversation is like, well, what is the framework? What are people like this, you know, spice of life or that desire aspect for people of, you know, how do we change it up? Like, what, you're giving yourselves permission to try something new?

Right, Right. All right, so I have some thoughts on that.

With everything going on in the world in our lizard brain, all about survival, whether it was your president election or not or your people getting sick or not, there's a number of ways. So first thing we can do is to try to calm our neural systems. And we can do that through touch. And that's not an easy one because couples that have been together a long time and they don't hold hands, they don't even hold a gaze with each other sex, they probably aren't even listening. Or maybe they want to turn it off by now. And maybe they're also looking for hope. So I'm gonna say touch. Get back to touch. And you have to be careful with that because the minute I say that, couples go, you know, every time I let him touch me, even if it's a hug, I just know he wants sex or he won't touch me unless he wants sex. Or it goes back and forth. I don't mean to be gender biased. So I actually. We thought for the longest time, Dr. Patty Britton's work has five levels of touch. I actually expanded it. I have a piece of work and it's on my website as a blog post. Seven levels of touch. A touch taxonomy sometimes. And now you can use this with hard af conversation formula and touch. Look, a kind and loving, helpful touch would go a long way. And if he knows that if she's touching, she's not going to maneuver in for sex because we've negotiated that we can do business touch, helpful touch, healing touch. And we're not going to move to sensual because until we work some things out, oh, my gosh, then the rubs on the shoulders and the hugs and the. I'll tell you what, hugs oftentimes leads to the heart moving and intimacy, and all they meant to do was just reach out and hug each other. I've seen it happen. So for starters, get back to touch. And if that's a bugaboo for you in your relationship, start to understand the different levels of touch and take that into your dinnertime conversation and say, hey, you know what? I've got this idea and we haven't touched in years. Could we, because of everything going on, could we snuggle on the couch in a move for a movie? Wouldn't that be nice?

Right?

No obligation for sex until we decide that could open up doors.

That's a huge one. You know, with the isolation, I'm seeing so many folks that aren't getting hugged or touched anymore. And that is. That's a health issue right there. Not getting in a hug. You can get oxytocin release. That is the love molecule. That's you feeling love. So I love that I'm going to Put a link to that, your blog there. The seven levels of touch from your website in the notes as well. Because this is. It is a very important. Like we are. We're physical, sensual beings. And so having that where it's not loaded like. Well, we stopped touching because every time, you know, we touched, they wanted. They. I knew they wanted more. Some, you know, and I just didn't want to do that. So we just. I shunned that. Or, you know, like my grandparents, they had different bedrooms and really they just orbited around each other at the kind of in their 70s. It was like, well, that's not really the model that I'm going for here, you know, but maybe it worked for them, you know, I don't know. Perhaps it did.

And in case you're alone, don't neglect yourself. Combing your hair 100 times is supposed to be good for you. I haven't gotten to that yet, but I worked with a client who wouldn't even put lotion on her body. She was so adverse to. There was lots of body dysphoria. There's lots of isms going on. But the day that we got to the point where she could put coconut oil and just feel her skin and then feel everywhere, that no square inch was off limits or disgusting or grotesque changed her life.

And in these days of being alone, don't underestimate the power of your own touch with yourself.

Nice. That. That's an awesome one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Keep going. You got it.

Okay, so that's the. That would be the baby step for the next step up. We're looking for novelty, right? Even sometimes to myself. And I have a pretty broad buffet of skills. Sometimes even I think I haven't done that in a long time. Right. We get into our cycles of what our preferences are. So I have another idea. And I just started doing this with my own partner for this very reason. Creatures of habit that we are. Scarlatine has a yes, no, maybe list. And there's a lot. If you Google yes, no, maybe list, there's a lot of them, but scarleteen.com is by far and away the most comprehensive. So you can do it for a number of things. You can look at, oh, related to your body, related to sexual skill sets, related to emotional dynamics. Oh, I would do that. Wow. I don't even know what that is, but I'm going to Google it and find out. And maybe I'm into that. The yes, no, and then the things that are a hard stop for you.

Okay.

So feel free to print that out and you fill yours out, have your partner fill theirs out, and then come together and talk about things. Now you've just created a menu of things to educate and try out if you're not used to them.

Nice. So scarlatine. We'll look that up, we'll put it in there.

Scarleteen.com yesnomaybe yeah.

Love it. Yeah, so that's great because, you know, a lot of folks don't know, like, well, what am I asking for? I don't even know what the buffet is.

You know, I don't even know what to ask for. Or maybe they have so much shame that they don't, you know, they've kind of been curious, but they don't know. Right. Going with a yes, no, maybe list and agreement and consent to try. This does so many things. Number one, it puts everybody in the rookie seat. I don't know, babe. How to do the upside down. Double, double. But you know what? If you're willing to try, I'm willing to try.

Try.

Let's be sexual. Edison's I say, and let's not have the pressure that we have to be masters at it, but let's totally have the idea of the novelty of trying it out.

Ooh, nice. Yeah, I love it. Yeah. An exploration. I like that.

Right?

And you know what? In these days of quarantine and Covid, you got time to do this kind of thing for sure. Let me just also say on that note, I recommend that you try everything that you're interested in three times before you make a decision. Because the first time you're going to be in your head. What is he or she doing now? What's my body doing? I don't know how I feel about that. Then the second time, you're a lot more familiar. And by the third time, you're. You have enough bandwidth to emotionally and physically decide, oh, okay, Yeah, I know how this is gonna roll out. All right, maybe I can add this or that and then you decide.

Yeah, nice. I like that three time rule. I have heard definitely multiple times. Like, well, I'll try anything twice. So the three times is a good way to frame that for folks. All right, well, we are coming down to the end. This has been a very quick conversation over the last hour. I'm wondering in the last couple minutes, anything in particular that you would like to share. We got about four minutes. Anything that you'd like to share at the end or pieces that we're like, oh, we should have brought this up, doc.

All right, Pieces for Pandemic, keeping your sexuality alive. Number one, understand you're in it for. This is a long game, so you need to bring in novelty any way you can if you think you're going to do it. Our human condition, we will find a neutral point and you could be DOA by spring. So hold on to it, hold on. Keep priming that pump because we will all emerge and we want to be on our feet. In the meanwhile, address the conversations that aren't being had.

You guys are in it together.

It will be easier if you can get some things worked out and hold the space for both of yourselves to talk about things that you've never been willing to because you don't know what.

Or where it could go in a good way. Living the life that really matters to you. And then the yes, no, maybe list, it could open your eyes or it could remind you, oh, my sexual skills on that because I haven't done it for a while are a little rusty. So. You bet.

You bet.

Let's practice this. Let's practice that.

Love it. I love it. So, Dr. Carey, thank you so much for coming on. This is. Yeah, it's a great conversation to have, especially as we're going into wintertime and darkness during a pandemic, you know, with rates of isolation, aloneness, and this isn't just for couples or partnerships. This is. I love that you brought in, like. Yeah. If you're living alone, you can fulfill some of these needs as well as. Well you should. So that if you are ever looking for partnership in the future, then you know what you like.

Oh, we didn't even have a chance.

To talk about that, but I completely agree to that. So to the solo people, you can explore on that. Yes. No, maybe Google, find the whatever education on a particular skill set that you need, but totally let yourself out. What does your body feel like? If you could simulate whatever the said activity is, at least it'll help you pass the time away. Right.

And you'll have a really nice response biochemically in your body.

Right. And knowing your body, oh my gosh, knowing your body is a really big piece to being a masterful lover. What works for you? What feels good for you? And I guess the last piece is don't forget touch those kids, those pets, each other. Find a level of touch that you can. Because with our lizard brains and what's happening in the world, we so need it.

Hear, hear. So, everybody, I want to thank you for tuning in. If you like the show, give us some comments out there so we can share share this with the world. People do really read your comments. I read your comments. So thank you for that. Please share the show with friends and family. Maybe not family if you're not into that, but definitely your friends to get the word out. I mean, this is really how change happens in the globe and this communication aspect, the framework you can use on all kinds of different levels. So again, what the health we are here on the contact talk radio Tuesdays from 2 to 3pm Pacific Standard Time. Thanks for tuning in. Thank you, Dr. Carey.

Thank you for having me.