WTH?!? Episode 116: The Impact of Concussions with Jake Pates

Welcome to what the Health. An independent approach to your health span. Have you noticed how our health care system may not have your best interest in mind? Join Dr. Eckel in this fun and sometimes disturbing exploration of the state of healthcare and what it means for you. Now, here's your host, Dr. Eckel. Hey, welcome back, everybody. This is Dr. Greg Eckel, and this is what the Health. And we have a special surprise and esteemed guest, Jake Pates of 2018, Olympian and lifelong snowboarder, Colorado native. He learned the importance of a strong and healthy body through the off season. Training and sportsmanship and commitment. 2019. Jake sustained a head concussion while training in the half pipe, which has, I think, determined a path forward for him going forward. So his journey back to health awakened him to the lack of objective data and concussion protocols led him to seek out new technologies and treatments. And his journey led him to found healthy H2B, which is healthy, happy, healthy brain, so that you can help others heal and maximize their brain performance. Jake, welcome to what the health.

Thanks, Dr. Eckel. I appreciate it. Happy to be here.

Yeah. I have been so psyched to get you on the show, talking about neurology, brain development, and in particular, concussions. Concussions in sports, because you've lived it and you've went through the process and discovered how lacking basically the whole program protocol is. I wonder, you know, will you take us through the journey here a bit for yourself and, you know, where you're at now? Because I do want to talk about your foundation, I want to talk about your business, and we want to talk about, you know, educating people about healthy, happy brains, too.

Yeah. Thank you. So it's. Yeah, it's definitely important stuff to make sure that your brain is happy and healthy. And that's kind of my mission. So it really all started, I guess, at a young age. My mom taught me how to snowboard and, you know, started kind of getting into some smaller events. And I was just really lucky to have great parents that facilitated this love and passion for snowboarding from a young age. So I basically did it, you know, from when I was 7 or 8 until about 20, 21 years old. And through the process, you know, the sport was ever progressing. You know, you gotta. You gotta hold yourself to a high level of progression. So, you know, you have to be trying new tricks and you have to be kind of pushing, pushing your comfort zone. Um, and through that, I sustained a lot of head injuries. Um, not too many that were super serious. Um, I never felt like I really had a bad. A bad concussion to the point where, you know, it really. It really changed my, know, everything for me in terms of, you know, being able to do everyday tasks and stuff like that. But a lot of repeated head injuries eventually caught up with me, um, and I ended up having one, like you mentioned, the season of. Of 2019, 2020, at an event. And it was really interesting because this concussion for me, I really have barely even hit my. My chin and my jaw kind of clamped down, and I immediately started noticing symptoms of a concussion of. I know it all too well. And just to kind of backtrack a little bit. Before that head injury, I had gotten a EEG scan from a company that's based out in Denver. It's called Wabi Medical. They make a portable EEG device. And my brother's girlfriend's brother was an engineer for this company. And he said, you know, before the season, hey, you should get a baseline brain scan in case anything happens, because he, you know, he knew how. How dangerous it was. And at that point, I was competing professionally, and the tricks and the, you know, the risks associated are unfathomable. Really, it's. It's a very dangerous sport. So I ended up getting a baseline brain scan before that season. And once I sustained that concussion, um, I was able to do. I was able to have consecutive brain scans throughout the process of my recovery and track my brain performance up until the point that it returned to the same performance as my healthy baseline. And that was, you know, a very important piece to the puzzle for me to have the confidence to. To go back out to snowboarding and not risk a second impact. So that's really where this. This idea kind of sparked in my mind. And I said to myself, you know, wow, I. I'm fortunate enough to have this opportunity where I've, you know, been through all of these concussions, and I've been involved in action sports for so long, I, you know, I was able to really be. I guess I don't want to be too doom and gloom about it, but I was really kind of a victim of the lack of objective information and concussion protocols. And, yeah, after that concussion and after tracking my progress through recovery, Covid kind of hit in March of 2020. And I had all this downtime, and I had been wanting to start, you know, a nonprofit, and I ended up, you know, deciding to start Happy Healthy Brain foundation, developed a partnership with Wabi Medical, who makes the brain scanner. And our goal is to, you know, basically do as many baselines as we can to help integrate this tech into sports concussion Protocols to minimize second impacts and, you know, a premature return to.

Play that, you know. So what is the current status? Right, is, you know, I think the misunderstanding is, well, if you blacked out, that's a concussion. Right. And what you shared with us is. No, it's all of these micro traumas. Like the thing that kind of put you over the edge was, yeah, you clenched your jaw hard. Yes, you had a head impact, but you, you probably sustained much worse in the past. Right, Right. So what, what is the current. What are current protocols now in sports, like concussions and sports? What do you. What is being said rather than not what you're promoting, but what is the reality for athletes in the U.S. let's say right now?

Right. And the reality of it really motivated me to start this because a lot of my friends have been victim to, you know, and I feel like victim is a bad word, but have been subject to, you know, poor objective information or lack thereof in concussion protocols. So, yeah, I mean, the, you know, my, my nine year professional career and the six years prior before I went professional, I never really objectively measured my brain performance. Um, and, and it was interesting too because I think they kind of have a grasp of it at the amateur levels at least. You know, we would do a baseline impact test at least, you know, and once I went professional, I had, you know, a good nine, ten years competing at that level and never once, you know, measured my brain or did a baseline exam or, you know, even anything subjective in the form of a, you know, a questionnaire or something like that to get a baseline. So, yeah, the reality of it is is there's not much for objective information, if any, in sports concussion protocols. And I think it's pretty widespread among, among sports and especially professional.

Yeah, I totally agree. And it's like one of the biggest pieces of you functioning at a high level and elite status is we really need to be looking under the hood for folks like, we use the WABI here at the clinic as well. And, you know, I'm using it for screening for, you know, early cognitive decline, which we can talk about later in the show because I know that you're doing some research there, called it evoked action potential, P300, which is a reaction time. But what did you find on. So you had this baseline and then had the injury and then kind of did a serial analysis of rehab and getting your brain back to kind of pre accident status. What. What did it look like? So for folks that don't know, what we're talking about is electroencephalogram which is a 19 lead read of all of the electrical activity of the brain. So maybe share some of that with us.

Yeah, and like you're saying, it's a cortical measurement of the frequencies coming off of your brain and in different areas. And these things can change due to trauma, obviously, even things like lifestyle changes, cardiovascular fitness, things like that. But what I really saw in my, in my post concussion WABI scan was a decrease in my brain's reaction voltage, which is basically how much you can think of it as like horsepower of the brain. Right. For the people that, that don't know that are listening, basically how much electricity your brain's emitting in the, in the form of microvolt. So that's a millionth of a volt. And mine decreased a lot. I think I went from, gosh, I'm trying to remember, I think it was a 20, I was at 27 microvolts for my baseline and it ended up going down to, I want to say it was like 16, 17, 18, something like that. And the normal, the normal day to day variation of microvolts is only plus or minus two. So anything outside of that is really significant. So to have something drop, you know, anywhere from 6 to 10 microvolts is pretty significant. And we see that a lot with concussions. You know, through the last couple years of trying to accomplish the mission of my foundation, we've scanned a lot of people with tbi, we scanned a lot of people with acute post concussion and it's, it's a trend. You know, it's, it's actually a non specific marker that, that WABI uses for acute concussion. Um, your brain reaction voltage decreases, the, you know, your horsepower decreases. Um, I also saw a decrease in the physical reaction time. So with the evoked response potential tests that you're talking about, the P300, for those that don't know, you get an auditory stimuli and you have to click the spacebar or click the mouse once you hear that. And the software, the WABI software will measure your response time among a lot of other things. But my physical reaction time, the amount of time it took for my instincts to kick in for me to hit that button, once I heard the tone, that really got slower as well. And then I think some other things that I saw as well that I actually went back and checked, the more I learned about the technology and learned more about the metrics was my, my coherence. So the coherence marker, essentially there was an increase in coherence, meaning a decrease in the, you know, communication from different regions of my brain. So yeah, among, among some of the.

Things that I was seeing and what you brought up, the, the acute and prolonged stages of phases of concussion. So a lot of folks don't, you know, again, it's like the old school method is, well, if you blacked out, that's a significant head trauma and you need to stay awake all night because you could die in your sleep. Right. Like so. But there's a lot of nuances in here. Like that's, that is not correct information anymore. So for those listening, if you've got kids in sports, soccer, football, skiing, the winter sports, et cetera, hockey. I'm a hockey fan and player through college, you know, you know, you have a cumulative building up of the micro traumas that then can send you over the edge. But then there's acute versus prolonged stages. So maybe unpack that for us.

Yeah, of course. And those are, you know, things that you can measure with this technology, which is a big part of the reason why I'm trying to integrate it into sports, you know, concussion protocols. So, yeah, you know, you can have an acute concussion. I think it's something like 80% of people recover within seven to 14 days from an acute concussion. And those 20% that don't kind of transition from acute to prolonged phases where their brain performance is still tainted. And through that process, you know, comes all kinds of mental health issues, you know, mood changes, personality changes, whatever. It looks like for me, like I was saying, I kind of went back and looked at that and saw changes in coherence. That was a non specific marker that Wabi identified in a retrospective analysis of their four year concussion study they did that was published in 2020. And they found that coherence was a non specific market for prolonged concussion. Um, and for me, you know, I had, you know, that was, that was really the only time I was able to measure my experience with a concussion and actually measure my brain performance. Um, but just like many other times I was experiencing, you know, mental health issues. Depression, anxiety, you know, some of which were physical, you know, vertigo, stuff like that. Um, and yeah, really I think caught up to me, so many repeated head injuries. Um, obviously, you know, we know that, that you get more susceptible the more head injuries you get. And you could probably speak better to this. Um, but you know, it is a, it's a metabolic syndrome essentially. So, you know, the, the, you know, neurons firing and the different chemical imbalances in your brain are really the basis of a concussion. Yeah.

Once that process starts if you don't do anything to kind of put the fire out on the brain, it continues to ramp up with reactive oxidative species rls and that inflammatory cascade continues. And that's why it's like that component of micro traumas that then become the macro. It just kind of keeps building until you put that fire out. And you know, it is, it's really, it's interesting, right, because we are in youth sports, in the amateur component, we have a little bit of awareness around it. But then you get into professional sports and you know, it's like that is, that's an important piece of you and without it you're not able to function at that elite status. And then there's like a lack of support or awareness around it, which is just kind of a total disconnect. So I'm really, I was so excited to meet with you and hear about your healthy happy brain foundation. And then also what you're doing in, just in, you know, with your other business as well with the baseline neuro. Baseline neuro. With the nootropics and basically brain food. What are. So you've done some research, you self funded some research. Tell us about that. Like what did you find with that?

Yeah, so we, we self funded a concussion study. Man, I'm trying to remember the dates. This was kind of a while ago. We self funded a concussion study with the US Olympic team and their head neurologist. And so basically we had the people that they were seeing on a day to day basis with sports concussion come in. Mostly kids, I believe they'd come in, they would get scanned by the WABI device and basically they would use the WABI device as they would go through their normal protocol. And so yeah, we're really trying to just collect information on how this technology could be used in a clinical sense for concussion recovery. And that's. The device itself has been proven to be a very important part of the puzzle piece of the puzzle for concussion assessment. Basically, you know, Wabi did a four year concussion study with University of Colorado football team and some surrounding schools that was published in 2020. They came up with, you know, nonspecific markers for acute concussion. Then they did the retrospective analysis of that study, came up with the non specific markers for prolonged concussion. And so the research is really important to me and that's something that you know, we're, we're pursuing not only in concuss, also for things like neurodegenerative disease and just all types of cognitive deficits. Really anything that we can assess we'll assess. So got some things in the works that are really exciting. I don't want to say too much, but, yeah, the research is really important to me.

And why is that for you? Why?

You know, I think because I really got a. Well, a few things. I got a firsthand look on how on the concussion side, these things can affect not only you, but your whole family. I mean, like I was saying, I've had, you know, mental health issues derived from concussions, especially after that last one. I think a lot of the repeated concussions caught up to me, but I've learned how to. You know, it's really important to make sure you're not going back to play too early and getting a second impact. And the way that I bring awareness to the decision makers, so to speak, is by getting that. Getting that data, collecting the data, doing the research, collating it, you know, proving the concept, and then showing these people, you know, time after time after time. We've done the research, we've proved this. So that whole process is really important to getting things done in terms of integrating this technology into concussion protocols. And it's, you know, also through my own experience and also friends experience with concussions and just mental health issues in general, I've had a lot of friends die by suicide, and it kind of seems like it just is never ending. Um, you know, every. Every once in a while, another, you know, another. Another one goes. And it's. It's. It's really evident to me that there needs to be a bigger focus and a bigger emphasis on things we can do to improve, you know, mental health resources. So, you know, that's another thing that contributes to it being important also, you know, my. My grandfather's had dementia for what we think is like the last 10 years, but now really catching up to him and, you know, recently just put them in a. In a memory care home and. Yeah, it's just tough to see. It's just tough to see that stuff happen. And I've really just come to realize your brain is. Is everything. You know, your brain is you. It's funny, I heard. I think it was an Elon Musk quote. Could be wrong, something like that. But he had said, or someone had said, when you damage your brain, you damage your consciousness. Our consciousness really is everything. So, yeah, it's just really fascinating space to be in, and that's why it's important to me. So awesome.

Thank you for sharing that. Because, you know, there's different. Different motivating components behind that, and I'm Full on board. And again, why I wanted to get you on the show and help get the word out for folks on, on your foundation and on your baseline neuro as well. It is without our brains, if we're not able to access that prefrontal cortex, we can't hit creativity and drop down into our hearts and creating the more beautiful world our hearts know and desire like, so that is. That's my purpose and passion and really helping people get their brains back from neurodegeneration to brain health, even into longevity and high performance, etc. And really this, this overlapping component that I think a lot of people don't realize that mental illness, repercussions of the head injuries, right, with sustained head traumas, there's impulse control, there's mood disorders, there's sleep problems, and a lot of those issues can lead into suicidal tendencies and thoughts and actually acting on it. And it is, you know, it just sucks. Right? I mean, there's. Because, you know, like, wow, we could be doing so much more for these athletes and folks, even kids. I mean, it's just rampant in all sports. What are you finding as you're going out? Like, your goal right now is to get as many brain scans as possible. What are some of the things that you've picked up for people that they had no clue?

Yeah, you know, it's. Man, it has been a journey for sure and it's been a battle. I think I knew that going in, but I didn't necessarily expect that it would be as tough to get the word across. You know, educate people, bring awareness to this as it has been something I've been finding and struggling with. You know, is that a lot of the parents of these kids, you know, and I don't mean to generalize, but they don't have the education on why this is super important for your kids to measure their brain performance, especially in sports. So there's a lack of need for it. And that's been a big challenge is really getting the education across, the awareness across why this is important. So, yeah, we're really also working towards just integrating this tech into healthcare systems as a whole. Because, you know, like we've been talking about, it's not only beneficial for, you know, sports concussion, it's also beneficial for mental health disorders in general, mild cognitive impairment, neurodegenerative diseases and such. So, yeah, it's just been tough also to. To kind of fund this. So that's why I started the for profit as well. I spent so much of my own money just trying to keep this nonprofit alive. And I had retired from snowboarding. I'm retired now, and was, you know, kind of faced with a decision to make a living some other way. So I started that the for profit. And, you know, we're all in research and stuff, but. But, yeah, it's. It's. It's definitely a gorilla of a problem to tackle. But I. I think it was interesting in our introduction, you know, a close friend, PJ had brought up that if enough of us band together, we can get it done, um, or at least know, make. Make more progress towards it. So, yeah, we just. We just all got to get together and make it happen.

Are you. When you say resistance, I mean, is there, like, people don't want to get their kids brain scanned or they just. They're skeptical of the tech or what. What happens there? Like, what is it?

Yeah, you know, it's. I honestly think it. It stems from. I think it stems from the cost associated. Really, you know, part of. Part of doing this is, you know, we wanted to make this as cost effective as possible. We wanted to make this really affordable. Affordable for people. So, you know, we're offering a hundred dollar baselines and A hundred dollar. And it's actually a donation. You don't have to donate if you don't want to. You know, we also will cover, you know, the scans for people that don't have the means to pay for it. But I think that's one of the big things that I've run into is like, wow, guys, $100 donation to a foundation that will, you know, help cover it for someone who doesn't have the needs so you can protect your child from developing, you know, mental health issues derived from concussions and that. And that's just like the awareness part. You know, if we can really bring education and awareness to these people to say, look, guys, the danger of head injuries and the repercussions of those lie in returning to play too soon, returning to play before you've healed. That's where the danger lies, and that's what we're trying to prevent also. I think there's just like a stigma around kind of brushing it off, you know, and. And we are tough it out type of thing in sports. You know, I think that's just how people are. You know, you got to be. You got to be tough to know to play. So that's also something. But. But yeah, I think if I could say anything if, you know, those parents listening are interested and. And might have reservations about, you know, doing the scan Guys, this is something that, that you know, is an insurance policy essentially to protect your kids from or, or yourself, you know, if you're an adult that does sports to protect you from developing unnecessary, you know, mental health issues or brain health issues that, that you would get if you return to play too early and sustain another concussion.

So because the risks of that. Right. Going back too soon, you already have the, it's like the smoking gun is already there and it's like that second bullet that has even worse repercussions as far as recovery times. Can you even come back from that? The. Depending on how big a sustained hit or concussion that you hit, what are you noticing? So you can also use this tech for determining when is the appropriate time, like you mentioned for yourself, you notice like, hey, I got my scans back to pre accident status. So there is a way that you can use the tech on a serial testing component rather than just the old H in space and proprioception from the neurologist to clear you for game readiness. Are professional or other professional sports teams using this or has any. I mean it seems like it's the biggest asset in, in professional sports. You know, you have these bodies, you're paying millions of dollars for these guys and gals to perform and the biggest asset is the brain in there. It seems like that is, pun intended, a no brainer to, to do this, right?

Yeah, completely. You're, you're 100% on the money there. I think we are making progress and Wabi is making progress as well. You know, they're starting a rugby concussion study to integrate this tech in England. And you know, that's a, that's a big step forward. There's a, you know, a BBC article that just came out on that I'll have to send your way. But yeah, I mean essentially this technology is very disruptive to the space. I feel like a lot of the brain assessment technology leading up until 2016, 2017 has been around for so long, so long, decades. So this technology really is revolutionizing the brain assessment industry. And you know, there's, there's a lot of pushback from, from clinics that are currently using a standard eeg, um, and stuff like that. So yeah, you know, there's, there's hurdles in the way. Um, but like you said, this is, you know, probably the biggest asset that you could have as far as, you know, first sports team, at least to you know, assess brain function. Um, so, you know, I'm pretty confident that, that things will keep heading in a positive direction. I feel like there's hurdles with anything and especially, especially a disruptive technology in the medical space. That's just kind of how it is. But yeah, you know, and also this technology is, is FDA cleared as an aid to diagnosis. So, you know, it's a piece of the puzzle. I, I didn't use this technology myself and then clear myself. Obviously you could do that if you were to get one yourself. But this is something that is supposed to be used as an aid to diagnosis in a doctor's office, you know, with their medical opinion on what the data says. So, you know, I was consulted from, you know, a medical professional on what the data looked like and, and that gave me the confidence to say, all right, I was good to go back. And that's, you know, that's where the value is here. So.

And are you just for you personally, you're able to, you're back out snowboarding? I mean, not at the, that elite professional front, but I'm guessing you still live in Colorado, you love to do that, you're out and you don't have any worries on it.

Yeah, no. You know, I'm, I think I was pretty subject to like PCs for, for a while, but over the last two years I've done a lot as far as, you know, supplements, nootropics, functional neurology, cranial sacral therapy, hyperbaric oxygen chamber therapy, audio brainwave, audio visual brainwave entrainment. I've done so many therapies and treatments point where I feel like I'm, I'm, I feel great now. Um, and it's, it's kind of a double edged sword because I feel great now and I've learned so much that I wish, you know, I could go back and treat, treat the concussions with the same, the same attention that I did these last couple of years because I feel like I'm ready to go back in. But no, it's, it's great. I go snowboarding and I'm not worried. I'm not really doing anything too crazy. So.

Yeah. Awesome. So then you've even spawned another company called Baseline Neuro. So what are you doing in that area?

Yeah, so Baseline Neuro is essentially a data collection company. So we're focusing on the neurodegenerative space. We're focusing on just pure brain performance, brain enhancement. We're focusing also on concussions and then also like neurotherapy therapeutic devices. So essentially we'll come in and do a bunch of brain scans with WABI to collect data for a company that is trying to do research Got it.

Okay. So folks will use your data set. So people kind of get plugged in anonymously and then you've got that data in there. Is that connected up with your foundation too, or different.

Yeah, just completely different entities, foundations and nonprofit, you know, purely trying to implement this for sports concussion. And then, yeah, started a for profit to just conduct research really and try to contribute to the knowledge that we have about issues. So yeah.

Oh, cool. And are you doing some work around with neurotropics in the data collection or that's a separate thing as well?

Yeah, that's with the, that's with the for profit. So. Yeah, we've done a few different studies. One I don't want to go into too much, but. Yeah, you know, it's. It's very fascinating. We used one supplement and I'm not trying to, you know, throw an advertisement out there, so.

No, no, but I asked you and like, whatever, if it's not published and you've got proprietary stuff like keep that under wraps until it's ready for prime time. But I was just curious on what's happening.

Yeah, of course. No, it's so fascinating. We're really looking at things that can improve brain performance. So increased brain reaction voltage, increased brain reaction speed, cognitive processing speed. We're looking at things that can improve executive function, working memory, looking at things that can, that are, you know, spoken of to improve neuroplasticity and seeing how that, how that looks on the coherence map. So it's really cool. And I've been blessed to work closely with the guys over at wabi, you know, on learning, you know, the metrics and the data and you know, the whole science thing is really fascinating to me. But yeah, it's just a great, it's a great thing to be a part of. I'm blessed and yeah, I just want to do my part in contributing to the information we have on, you know, the things we can do to better these, these problems. So. Awesome.

Why did you start the baseline neuro?

Yeah, so baseline neuro, like I was saying, I really started just because the nonprofit I started was and has been very financially tolling and it was. I kind of started that right. You know, in, in 2020 as Covid hit as I was recovering from this concussion and then decided to retire from snowboarding. So I really didn't have a means of work or making money. Um, I was really just kind of pouring it all into this nonprofit. So, yeah, I decided I need to, yeah. Start a, start a company, you know, and if it was anything, it was going to be something contributing to health.

So love it, love it. And what are you excited about? What do you see? Where do you see this industry going or what's the future hold as far as if in the Jake Pates world, if you had like the magic wand to make it happen? Where are we going with this?

Yeah, it's a really good question. It's a really good question. I think really just contributing as much as possible to the information and the data that we have, the research. You know, I want to also make sure that there, there isn't kids returning to play too soon and sustaining second impacts. That's like really probably the biggest motivator for all of this for me is not only myself, but like I was saying, friends and stuff being, being subject to head injuries and then developing mental health issues and that affecting, you know, their lives, even cutting them short, affecting their family's lives, friends lives and stuff like that. So I really want to, you know, if I could just shoot out my wildest goal with this, it's that they're, you know, every kid would have a baseline that's in, that's in sports, you know. And I say kids because that I think is a good way to start. I think people are, are, you know, they're drawn to keeping their kids safe, especially parents. But even for, even for parents, you know, everybody's, everybody's, you know, likes to do something and a lot of that something is outdoor sports, action sports, stuff that is concussion prone. So yeah, I really want to just try to impact that space as much as possible and, and prevent concussion derived mental health issues.

Love it. You know the saying that comes to mind, it's about the children. It's about the children. But you're right for all of the adults too, you know, there are these components of, I think a misunderstanding around addictions, around mental health issues and problems where it may have stemmed from a head trauma, that people are, you know, kind of maybe taking medications or you know, with alcoholism or other addictions, they're really trying to treat themselves. While it's, it's dysfunctional and destructive, but underlying that I think if we were able to look at some brain scans, you know, I know a lot there's some innovative addiction centers that are doing EEGs, not the WABI tech, but similar functioning and showing amazing results with balancing brainwaves and training that way. And to see, you know, you gotta start somewhere, right? So I think you're, you're wise on the populations like let's Just get a brain scan on all of these kids. On what, like a tri county area of where you're at? Right. Is that. That's kind of like where you're the bases or are you going nationwide with that right now with the foundation?

Yeah, well, certainly keeping it local at the moment, but I think as a long term goal, yeah, nationwide, you know, why not? Sky's the limit. But also, also a lot of what I've been interested in recently with the research side of things is the research side and you know, I guess concussions works into this too, but also serving like underprivileged populations, people that, that might not have the means to go to a clinic and get, you know, a $300 WABI scan or a $200 WABI scan or a $1700 normal EEG scan. So, you know, and these things are important. These things can catch, you know, brain, brain issues really, brain disorders and things like that. So that's also something.

I love that. What have you. Can you share anything about like initial testing with kind of the youth of what you're doing now? Like share any success stories around, you know, kids that have sustained. They got the baseline and then they, you know, had a head trauma during that sporting season and then the, the ability of tracking and really releasing them back into the wild, into their sport in a really safe way.

Yeah, you know, it's tough. Um, and that, that's a really good question. I wish I had a better answer for you. Um, but I think it, it really comes down to, you know, we, we took our first year, year and a half trying to figure out the best way possible to get as many baselines down on kids as we could. Um, so we did that. You know, we went to a couple local schools and you know, and tried to work with the superintendents, the principals to get everybody, all the students scanned. They're doing things like football and obviously skiing here in the mountains and whatnot. So. But the problem there is that it. We weren't able to get it mandated that, you know, we weren't able to get it mandated and actually set up a full protocol. Um, and, and I honestly, yeah, I wish I just had a better answer for why we couldn't set that up. I think we just ran into roadblocks as far as, you know, the school not wanting to put pressure on the parents to do this or, you know, liability. Yeah, so, so yeah, we, we had trouble getting people to come back for their post concussion scan. We've done a few of them and it's Actually, you know, I guess I do have, you know, a couple stories. We had a local kid that I guess, yeah, got knocked, knocked out, hit his head really hard. Had a baseline from, you know, a couple months prior. I scanned him a couple times. We consulted with partner neurologist for my foundation, Dr. Assad. He's great TBI board certified and just an all around really great guy, really great medical professional. And then, you know, we were able to get this kid into his, his local primary care physician and get that second opinion. Um, and then yeah, eventually he was, he was ready to return to play. So there's been a couple of those instances. Um, but, but it is, it is somewhat frustrating and I don't mean to be, you know, negative about this, but it is frustrating kind of getting people to return for their post concussion scan. So what do you think that is?

Is it because they're feeling so good that they just feel like they don't need to look again or what, you know, what is that?

Yeah, I think that could be part of it for sure. I also feel like it's, it's, it's maybe just not as, as familiar to people as it, as it could be yet that comes into the awareness thing as well. But also I think if there is a protocol in place with the primary care physicians, with the hospital executives that can mandate this and make it a resource for people and say, guys, look, this is here for you, then it makes everything easier. That's really what we're doing now. I've taken a step back. We're trying to set up this ecosystem of care for the community and you know, we're trying to, we're trying to set up a go to protocol for people. You know, they get a head injury, they ideally have a baseline, but if they don't, they get a head injury, they get a WABI scan, they continue to get subsequent scans and get consults from, you know, the PTs that are doing brain and balance care or the neurologists that, you know, we have as a, as a partner of our foundation and, and they work with the primary care physicians and then they get referred out to treatment, they get more scans after their treatment. Obviously the treatment kind of comes into play if it, you know, transitions to prolonged phases, the concussion and then, you know, they get a final console, the final WABI scan and they're hope, ideally showing that they're all good to go and we send them back.

So yeah, yeah, that, I think, you know, that, that component. Because I'm wanting to really, I'm going to solicit our viewers and listeners to, you know, if you know, anybody that has had head trauma or concussions, please share this show with them. But also if you know any decision makers at any universities, any sports teams, etc. Like, be sure extra special to send this out because, you know this. I really want to get some energy behind your foundation. And also this brain awareness component, you know, we're in currently we're filming in June. This is brain Awareness month. So it's really apropos that we made it happen this month for this and it is, it's that component around mental health disorders, mental illness is this, this really needs to be considered in the differential diagnosis. I have a lot of providers that listen to the show as well.

So.

So for education around that, really looking at some tech. Is there other tech that you're also looking at with the baseline neuro as far as bringing in more information into that platform for you? Anything on the horizon there?

Sure, yeah. The research side of things is interesting. One of the kind of pilot proof of concept studies that we just wrapped up with a nootropic company, um, is using different. Man, I don't want to, I don't want to say too much, but yeah, using different types of assessments, all kinds of assessments. You know, not, not specifically looking at brain performance. So like I said earlier, this is a piece of the puzzle and there's many pieces of the puzzle just like anything. Um, so it's not the end all, be all, but it's certainly a great tool to aid in the process of assessment. And, and yeah, I mean, if you're listening, please, you know, spread the word about, about, you know, brain awareness and the things we can do to, to help, you know, measure and improve.

So I love it. Now I'm going to switch gears just a little bit. So hopefully I don't catch you off guard on this. But you know, it's because it's not every day that you get to talk to an Olympian, past Olympian. And so looking at, you know, performing performance and mindset, what kind of advice do you have for folks around? Because that's a different mindset that you have to be in when you're talking about I'm going to be the best in the world in this sport. Where's the motivation come from for that type of performance? Where did it come from for you?

Yeah, oh man, it's. I feel like it's a lot of things, but to kind of narrow it down to the decision makers for me to want to be you know, a professional snowboarder and pursue that. I think one came from just love of sport and how much fun it was and then, you know, kind of tying in that with the opportunity to make it a career and make it a lifestyle and, um, it really. Yeah, I think the biggest thing really just stems from the fun of it and the love I have for it. You know, I was lucky enough to do this at a young age and I just developed like this love for it. So it was really, for me, I just kind of had one track mind. There wasn't anything else that I really was interested or wanted to do. And yeah, I don't think I was gonna, I wasn't gonna stop until, you know, I really achieved satisfying level in my mind. Um, unfortunately, I, I really do feel like it was cut short due to just repeated head injuries and kind of bad decisions. Um, but. But yeah, the, the, yeah, the one track mind, the athlete mind is, is definitely a different thing. Especially being kind of post retirement for a while now, I'm. I'm realizing like, you know, life is made up of so many different things, so it's crazy to just be all 100% in on one thing. You know, life is. Life is about a lot of different things. But yeah, I owe it to just kind of love the sport and fun doing it.

Really love it. And I'm curious, so when, like, growing up, I'm guessing you had a lot of friends that you all began together, but so they just got burned out or maybe injured along the way. I mean, there's, there's that component, I think. Um, I'm wondering if that. If that's true or if that's just Dr. Greg making that up. No, because you, you maintain the, the fun aspect of it, right?

Yeah, no, you're completely right. Um, yeah, you're completely right and the fun aspect, you know, unfortunately. But I want to be honest, kind of kind of faded towards the end of my career and, and definitely played into, you know, a big factor of ending the, the professional competition side of it. Um, but yeah, I've seen so many friends over the years, you know, lose interest and that. And a lot of that plays into kind of like these pressures, these external pressures that you have to show up at the event. There's money on the line, there's sponsors on the line. You know, if you're. And a lot of us, it's kind of crazy, but a lot of us, and actually the majority of us do this with this one track mind and then you're done and you don't know what you're going to do. Um, so. And, you know, I felt subject to that as well, but. But, yeah, you're totally right. I mean, injuries I've had. Yeah. You have so many friends that you come up doing this with and. And, you know, you find yourself ten years later with. With new friends and new people around you because, you know, they're the ones that. That kind of lasted, I guess. But, yeah, it's. It was a crazy, crazy journey, for sure.

Wow. Well, coming down to the last bit of the show, anything else that you would like to show with, share with our listeners and viewers out there?

Yeah, you know, not really. I like to. I'd like to just kind of keep it simple. I feel like I talked a lot, but, you know, treat your brain with respect. Your brain is. Is. You controls everything, and it, you know, it can really change the course of your life. So make sure you're treating your brain with respect.

I love it.

Yeah.

That component that you shared, too, and I really want to emphasize it, which was, you know, I always ask the question before the show around, what is the one actionable step that you can do that people can take action on? And your response is so succinct, is, don't return to the sport or physical activity until it's safe to do so following the injury. So, you know, your message is loud and clear. Get the baseline brain scan, and then if you have any event or episode, then get another one. So, you know, well, what. What has occurred? Then get into the therapeutics, you know, and I wanted to share with you a story of a woman that I treated. She had a massive head injury, and when I saw her, basically she was really depressed, had a lot of other mental illness as a result, because basically she had a high school education. And they said, well, that's it. She went through all of the general protocols and dumped at the end of the road. Thankfully, she found us here and we did our own assessment, and we do acupuncture and hyperbaric therapy, you know, physical medicine and nutraceuticals, diet therapy, movement therapy. And she has gone on. She got her master's and then a PhD and went into counseling. And, you know, and this is a woman that had been through the ringer, saw all of the experts and went to the specialists and was just left depressed because they're like, well, there's nothing else for you. So anybody listening just know folks are out there working for you. We're trying to advance medicine with the research. I, as a Clinician really want to move the needle for people and make a difference and get this word out but also provide some hope that all is not lost. Just keep asking the questions of like who can I see who can help with this? So if you're a parent or if you're an athlete that has been hurt, you know, get in touch with us. I've got all of Jake's information in the show, notes on all of the various areas that you can connect up with him and his research and what he's doing in his business and in the foundation. Anybody that has connections maybe into some foundations that really want to support brain research and et cetera, let's get them in touch with Jake and let's get more brain awareness out there into the world. Jake, I really want to thank you for coming on. Sharing your story and all of the work that you're up to is inspiring and again, anything that we can do to help support, please. I know we're going to be in touch for a long time. That's why I wanted to get you on the show and have this conversation with you. Anything else? Any inspiring last words for folks?

Man, it's hard to follow up what you just said. You're, you're on the dot there. It's, yeah, there's so many people out there that can help and you know, you know you might feel like you lose hope in the current healthcare system but you know, keep, keep looking for resources. Uh, please reach out to me, please, you know, ask me questions. I'm here for you to help, you know really to help and yeah, don't, don't lose hope. There's hope. You just got to look for it and you just got to find it.

So awesome everybody, thanks for tuning in. This is what the health we are Here Tuesdays from 2 to 3pm Pacific Standard Time on the contact talk radio. If you like today's show, please go out there, give us a five star review those matters and put down in your review what you learned today about brain health and what you can do and share this show with two family members, friends, community. Let's get the word out because our brains are that important. Until next week.

Thanks Dr. Eckel.

Thank you. OK, you are clear. Awesome.