112: Rethinking Cardiology—Nutrition, Stress & Toxins with Dr. Jack Wolfson

So we're really going to go after it today and sit in a place that we often sit but make other people feel very uncomfortable, because we both came up in the conventional medical world and we had to do a lot of unlearning about things that people think are absolute truths. I want to get into the whole world of heart health and cardiac health, because even in the world of breast cancer, most people with breast cancer who have early breast cancer, they're not going to die of breast cancer. They're going to die of cardiovascular disease, which is the number one threat to a woman's life from the time that she's 30 on and exponentially the number one threat to a woman's life. And it's so underappreciated. And the way that our current society.

Is.

Treating or acknowledging or dealing with cardiovascular disease is largely wrong. And I've only learned that recently. But your career has been redefining the approach to cardiovascular health. So, first of all, Dr. Jack Wolfson, I am so delighted to have you on the podcast podcast today. Thank you so much for joining me.

Thank you so much, Dr. Jen. Pleasure to be on. And as you said, you know, cardiovascular disease, number one killer worldwide, men and women. And clearly we're not winning this war on heart disease. It's been the leading killer for, you know, again, 100 years. And it's, you know, the pharmaceutical approach, the mainstream medical approach, it's not working.

And in some instances, it's making it worse. I mean, when.

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I would agree in the, you know, sense of. It's really like this false sense of security where people are told, hey, take this statin drug, take this aspirin, take these blood pressure drugs, and you're good to go. But the reality is obviously very far from the truth that those are not a good strategy. They are not a longevity strategy, and they're not curing anything. It's not. It's not root cause medicine. And ultimately, people are suffering tremendous side effects. As, you know, one pharmaceutical leads to another to another. You know, someone goes on a beta blocker, for example, like atenolol, metoprolol, carvedilol, blood sugar goes up. And now there's a diabetes medication that goes, you know, that they add. And now you start suffering from nutrient deficiencies and your digestion suffers. And now they put you on a heartburn reflux drug. And of course, all that leads to hepatic dysfunction. So now your lipids go up, and now they think, okay, well, let's put you on the statin. So it really is this kind of cascading effect of pharmaceuticals. And of course we've got cascade testing, you know, that we do, where one test begets another, begets another. And unfortunately, as we said, you know, just a couple of minutes ago, no one's getting better and no one's living longer because.

So, um, the way that you think is very outside of the box, especially for someone who was conventionally trained. You went to a conventional medical school and so how did you come to see things differently? I mean, you worked as a cardiologist.

Yeah, like, you know, like you and I talked about before we started recording, you know, my father was born and raised in Atlantic City, New Jersey, and he would become a cardiologist. And I like to say that I was born into the cardiology world. I'm in my mother's womb and I'm listening to. Yeah, I mean, I'm listening to cardiology conversations inside the womb. And ever since I was a kid, I wanted to be exactly like my father. And that's what I would do. After four years of medical training, three years of internal medicine, three years of cardiology, now I'm out on the job as a cardiologist from Chicago to Arizona, and my career is exploding to the positive. And unfortunately, my father is sick and dying of a Parkinson's like illness and he's in his late 50s and the Mayo Clinic has no idea why my father is sick and dying. They have no treatment for him and they say he'll be dead within three years. And then God introduces me to this 29 year old chiropractor who tells me all the reasons why my father is sick and dying. And I listened. I listened, number one, because this young chiropractor was smoking hot. And she still is. But what she had to say made total sense. The head of neurology at the Male. This is the woman who become my wife. The male, the head of neurology at the Mayo Clinic has no idea why. And the 29 year old chiropractor, and she said, you know, again, if you don't want that to be you, whether it's progressive supranuclear palsy, Parkinson's heart disease, cancer or similar, you will start to change your life. And again, that's what I did. But as you said, that's kind of like this big epiphany moment. Many medical doctors, cardiologists would run from that person because it upsets everything they've ever been told and taught and brainwashed into. And it's also their livelihood. It's also how people get paid. So one of the quotes I use in my book, the Paleo Cardiologist the Natural Way to Heart Health is a quote from Upton Sinclair from his book the Jungle in the early 1900s. And you'll appreciate this. And if you don't know it, which you probably do, it's hard to get a man to understand something when his job depends on him not understanding it. They don't want to learn the truth.

Yes, that's true. And I see that every single day. And that is part and parcel. What is so very broken about our system is our system is built on sickness. Our system does not work if people are well. Doctors can't get paid, hospitals can't get paid. We cannot function without dysfunction. And so our system is entirely geared on building dysfunction. So you meet this smoking hot, extremely smart lady and it allows you to think outside of the way that you were trained and taught. Where do you go from there?

So, you know, I started getting into trouble really when I, when I learned the truth and I started reading all these different books about nutrition as you know, medical school, we never get any training about nutrition. That, that is all true. We never talk about it.

We learn about scurvy and rickets. Right? I mean, it's true. We, we learn about scurvy, rickets and how to write for parenteral nutrition for people who can't eat in the hospital. And that's it. That's what we look.

Yes, yeah, extreme, you know, extreme rare, you know, situations certainly in a modern world, you know, we, we did learn about those, but as far as optimal nutrition, obviously we didn't. So I started, you know, start reading these books, you know, afterwards and start coming up with these different ideas, you know. You know, my wife was, is the daughter of a chiropractor. She has three siblings. No one was ever vaccinated. When we first got together, she said we're going to be, you know, if we have children, when we have children, they will not be vaccinated. And I started looking into this, started digging deeper and again would agree with that philosophy immediately. And then again just kind of just, it's almost, yeah, you start to unlearn everything. But then you start getting into trouble because now you're sitting in the nurses station and you're having a vaccine conference or you're talking about anti statin as a cardiologist, you're talking about paleo nutrition which is about eating cholesterol rich foods and hunter gatherer foods. And now another Cardiologist would hear that and say, wait a second. We talk about low sat fat and low cholesterol, and we got the food pyramid. And, you know, and anyways, it would lead to me getting into trouble with the big cardiology group. I no longer would order nuclear stress tests of which is the main money maker of a cardiologist. And, you know, again, the writing was on the wall. So I would have to leave the big group in 2012 and start my own company, Natural Heart Doctor in Scottsdale, Arizona. But we do. Myself, my other cardiologists, my team of health coaches, we do consultations with people all over the world. And really, just giving people a second opinion, like your pill pusher, you know, nuclear injector, CT scanner cardiologist is recommending these things. Hey, let's give you a second opinion. Let's. Let's try a different approach.

And I actually had Dr. Fab Mancini. I don't know if you know him. He is.

Yeah, I do, very well.

He's phenomenal. And I had him on the podcast last week, and we talked about that whole concept of second opinions where people are out there getting second opinions from someone who thinks exactly the same way as the first person they asked. And if you want a second opinion, if you want a different opinion, if you want a real opinion, you can ask the same. Same person twice.

No, no, I agree. And the other thing, too, it's kind of like, you know, maybe you say something on social media and you say, ask your doctor if instead of taking X, you can do Y. Now, that could apply to, you know, blood pressure drugs. It could apply to cholesterol drugs. Hey, instead of taking a statin drug, maybe you can take berberine, for example, or maybe you can try this dietary approach. Or, you know, instead of taking a blood pressure drug, you can try something that naturally increases nitric oxide, like beetroot powder. But you give them the caveat medical. Legally, you think you're trying to protect yourself, ask your doctor. If you can't ask the same doctor because they're the one with the God complex who said no. I originally told you statin, and I'm still telling you statin. So you're right, Jen. You can't ask the same doctor the same question because they're not gonna. They're not gonna change their mind. They can't. Their whole. Their whole working method is based on this false sense of confidence. Like, oh, this is the gospel, this is the word, and this is what we're gonna follow. And you can't Veer from that. I love Dr. Fab Mancini. He's a great mindset guy. He's an absolute icon, certainly, in the chiropractic community. So anyone who's listening, go back and listen to that podcast, because anything that guy said is gold.

And when you go back to that same doctor with a new idea, I find that the problem is because I have people come to me for second opinion all the time, because my opinion is very different than what they're getting from their medical oncologist. And the problem is when they go back to that original doctor or provider, they confuse I don't know with no. And for the most part, these cardiologists don't know. I mean, if they even know what nitric oxide is. They don't know that taking beetroot powder can increase your endogenous nitric oxide.

Right.

They. They don't know that berberine can help with blood sugar management. They don't know. They also.

Yeah, you know, it's kind of like we're talking about. I mean, we're talking about brilliant people. You know, I mean, we're, you know, in many cases, in some cases, not necessarily, but let's just say the head of neurology at the Mayo Clinic, let's just assume that's a very intelligent person. And it's not that, you know, again, he just. He knows what he knows. It's like if, you know, you and I, you know, went on a. On a trip to Mongolia and we're walking around like, oh, look at those two stupid American doctors. They don't even speak Mongolian. Like, we're not. We just never learned the language. And that's really what the issue is. But it's also the. The sad thing is, is that they refuse to learn this new language. They refuse to pick up a copy of a nutrition book or to say, hey, check out this new study that shows that lithium helps people with cognitive dysfunction and mild Alzheimer's in a randomized trial. But it's not of interest to them because they're just looking from the next, you know, for the next pharmaceutical, from, you know, Bristol Myers or Astra or any of these pharmaceutical companies where they're.

Actively getting their information because those reps are coming in and giving them the opportunity. Whereas I do think that most providers are so busy with their head down working that they're not actively seeking the latest information. They're not looking to educate themselves outside of the system that they know. So I think that that is part of the problem. I also think that they consistently confuse I don't know with no. So instead of saying I don't know and then feeling somehow responsible to go learn the real answer, they just say no.

Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, that's, you know. And, you know, to the pharmaceutical story, right? I mean, just the pharmaceutical companies, obviously they come in, they detail the doctors, you know, to this day in an extreme way, when you and I were both in training and residency and fellowship, I mean, again, it was just, I mean, the stories that I could tell about the, you know, the pharmaceutical reps, you know, one story I love to tell Jen. My father is a cardiologist. 1988, I'm in high school and we go on a trip to Maui and my parents sit first class. My brother, sister and I, we sat in coach. We stayed at a fancy hotel resort for a week. All the meals, all the drinks, all the excursions. My father spoke for one hour for Merck Pharmaceuticals at their event. It was a Merck event. He spoke for one hour and everything was paid for the entire trip. So it's not as egregious, obviously today as it was back then. That doesn't. But, but again, the payola is still there. It's been proven, it's in the medical literature that you can buy the loyalty of a physician with a pen. You can buy the loyalty certainly with a lunch and learn. And also, of course, the guidelines as written and controlled by the pharmaceutical companies keep the doctors in those that the. You know, the latest thing I saw a couple of years ago, right. Was when people would say, you know, gd, I follow GDMT guideline directed medical treatments. And it's just, it takes a fool to not understand that the guidelines are written by the pharmaceutical companies. They are the best marketers in the.

Sure. Carefully curated. You know, I, I did my training in the time of OxyContin and Vioxx. So I mean, those guys were lobbying hard. They were there. They met us in the morning before, you know, when we were sit in the surgeon's lounge getting ready. They were there rounding throughout the day, making sure that we were writing for OxyContin because it was the very best thing for postoperative pain. And they were there when there was increasing and escalating dosages and to remind us to write for more because more is better. And I mean, I'm still sick about it today in how complicit we were as surgical residents in, in creating addicts, because I know we had to. I mean, it was.

And then you mentioned Vioxx. Too. And of course, Vioxx was pulled. And, you know, Merck knew that, you know, that it was leading to excess cardiovascular mortality, myocardial infarction. When I was a. When I was a internal medicine resident, we were all sitting in the internal medicine, you know, the medicine lounge. You were in the surgical residence area. I was in a different area in the, in the medicine lounge. And the pharmaceutical rep for Pfizer comes in, and he opens up this huge bottle and dumps them all on the table. And there are all these little blue pills, what were Viagra, right when it came out. And I was there with all my buddies and this, the reps, like, hey, guys, grab a handful and go have fun. And of course, all of that, you know, was all free in all those samples. And then very quickly, as soon as everybody was using the blue pills, they. They quickly stopped giving away samples. Next thing you know, that you were prescribing it to all these people, and they had to pay, like, $30 a tablet. But, I mean. I mean, and I say that again just to talk about the, the influence of that industry and what it still does in the medical community and how if you're someone who, you know, you come into the hospital, myocardial infarction, heart attack, you leave the hospital on seven drugs, you know, you've got heart failure, you got six drugs. And it's. And it's not even the fact that the drugs don't work, and they certainly don't work as well as you would think that they do, of course, with a tremendous litany of side effects. They don't work because they don't address the root cause. And that's. That's all there is to it. So it's not a matter of, oh, well, you know, you know, the second opinion that we give is not, hey, you know what? Just don't do. Just don't do that. The second opinion that you and I give is don't do that. But here's what you're going to do, and this is going to work.

This works 100% of the time when you do it right? When you do it. So I do want to start to talk about the statin story, though, because there are millions and millions and millions of people on statins. Many of them are my patients who are, you know, they come to me with a breast cancer diagnosis having already been put on a statin, and they have no idea why they're on the statin. I mean, they're told that their cholesterol is high, but what the goal of the statin is because they're under the impression that lowering your cholesterol lowers your cardiovascular risk. They have no idea of some of the unwanted and under discussed side effects of the statins are. And I look at their numbers and I can't even believe that they were put on a statin in the first place. We have completely villainized cholesterol for the purposes of stelling statins. But cholesterol is a very important molecule in everyone's world. It's a very important molecule. So can you start to unpack this whole statin story? I know why we sell them, tell people why we shouldn't.

Well, let me say this. I have not prescribed a statin drug in over 10 years and I never will again for anyone in any situation. So I'll be very clear about my position on that. And to explain my position and explain what you said is that there are many, many cardiologists walking around who believe that statin drugs should be in the drinking water right next to fluoride, which is.

You can get into the fluoride thing afterwards.

We can get into that maybe some other time. And get this, Jen. Three of the most famous statin drugs actually have fluorine atoms in their molecular structure. So there's actually the fluorine atom diabolic. And many pharmaceuticals do, including many psychiatric meds, have the fluoride fluorine molecule in there, including the most famous one of all time, which is atorvastatin and also rosuvastatin. The two most powerful ones have actually fluorine or fluoride in the atomic structure. Aside from that, I mean, obviously that's one of many, many, many things. My father died of the neurologic disease, progressive supranuclear palsy or whatever caused it. And it was a cruel, tortuous death and he would die in three years. And I'm telling you, Jen, seeing what my father went through, I'm not saying my father was a saint, he was a good man, he was my hero. But nobody deserved to die like this. And one thing that statin drugs do, you know, so they inhibit the enzyme HMG, CoA reductase, so they inhibit the downstream production of everything after that that that enzyme is supposed to make, including cholesterol, because it's essentially stopping food from being made into cholesterol, is what it is. Because.

Everyone knows from our diet, most.

People, the majority does not come from diet, it doesn't come from dietary cholesterol, but it comes from the food we eat into the Krebs cycle acetyl COA production, that eventually that acetyl COA goes into the HMG CoA reductase. So, no, it's not coming from dietary cholesterol, but it's coming from food. And what happens there is that the downstream things, everyone knows one of the things obviously downstream is cholesterol, but also CoQ10 and CoQ10 is how mitochondria are fuel factories in the cells that do a lot of different things besides fuel, but how the fuel factories make ATP for cellular energy. How can you combat and defeat and prevent breast cancer if you don't have CoQ10, for example? So CoQ10, though, is just one of those many things. Another one of those things back to my father is that something called dolichol, which is a steroidish, not anabolic steroid, but a steroidish like molecule that is principally found in the substantia nigra of the midbrain, which is where Parkinsonian diseases are formed, where the symptoms of Parkinson's is because of this dysfunction inside the substantia nigra, which doesn't have dolicol because people are on statins. The other offender there is, my father was an alcohol drinker. And alcohol is known to reduce dolicol levels as well. Okay. There's another thing inside of the electron transport chain inside of mitochondria to make cellular energy and cellular water and make intracellular, you know, intra. Intracellular light as energy is the something called heme A. And heme A is inside a chrome inside of the fourth cytochrome, cytochrome C oxidase, and that is also made by HMG CoA Reductase that is inhibited by statin drugs. So it's a long way of saying there's many different ways that the statin drugs affect negatively. And ultimately, I don't think that we're. It's not that I don't think we are not getting the truth from pharma, because Lipitor is the number one selling drug of all time. And then finally, Jen, let me say one more thing. The goal is not to reduce someone's annual heart attack risk from 3% to 2.84%, like the medical literature says that statins do. What we want to know is who's got the plan to reduce your heart attack risk to zero percent? And that's why you go to Dr. Jen Simmons and you go to Dr. Jack Wolfson and people like us, because we're all looking for the 0% category. We're not looking for these little teeny Tiny marginal benefits. And when people. When we tell them the truth and we show them the actual published literature, they're blown away. They're like, wow, this drug doesn't work. It's got a tremendous amount of side effects. It leads to the false sense of security where doctors are like, hey, I take a Lipitor and I eat whatever I want, so can you.

I'm gonna have pizza. Right? I know, I know. It is almost criminal, and yet I'm not 100% convinced that the doctors that use these drugs and statins aren't the only one, right? Like, there are other drugs that are offenders like this, and I'm not sure that the doctors that use them know. I think that they're still blind.

Well, it's just, I think Also, you know, Dr. Jen, is that people, you know, it's. It's. I guess, you know, I mean, you know, this is better than nothing. Or, I mean, as you know, right, the reps come in and they show you the relative risk reduction, and they are the best marketers in the world. You and I both know that pharmaceutical companies are the best marketers in the world, and they come in with these beautiful reps with beautiful graphs and beautiful pictures, and then almost give you the feeling of, oh, and by the way, if you don't prescribe them, it's kind of like malpractice. You know, you're not following the guidelines, and therefore, you could be, you know, you know, disciplined by your governing body. So there's so many different things there, but, you know, it's, you know, in your world, too. And maybe we can touch on this. I think this is important. I'm sure you touch on other podcasts about breast implants. I've seen so many cases of women who develop cardiac symptoms after breast implantation. When you go back and you kind of take that history on people. I remember back in 2008, I was still kind of a newbie and took a good history on a woman when her symptoms started, and she's like, yeah, you know, it actually started about eight months ago, around the time I had breast augmentation. And I'm like, you know, that sounds like it was the problem. A week later, she went to Helen Fang at the Cleveland Clinic and had them removed. And I don't know, I just. That was on the tip of my mind, obviously, knowing your. Your career and thought that that was kind of poignant because it's always just about, like, searching for that root cause, you know, whenever, you know, stress is such a major factor. Two Things I would talk about if, you know, you know, again, for your, for your demographic, maybe it's mostly women, stress. And two medical diagnoses. One is called Takasubo cardiomyopathy. These are typically 40 to 60 year old women. They have a stressful situation, maybe a divorce, maybe something at work, maybe, you know, a death, something like that. And the woman suffers a large myocardial infarction. Cardiologist goes in there with a catheter, angiogram. There's no blockage that's there. There's probably some kind of coronary spasm that happened from the stress. And it leads to a significant amount of damage, sometimes irreversible one third of the time, irreversible, significant damage. And some of those women die from it. And it was all because of a stressful event. Yeah, obviously there's other factors involved. The way that we eat, the way that we live, the way that we think, the way that we sleep, the sunshine that we get, all the things you and I usually talk about, but stress is such a major factor. And the other is spontaneous coronary artery dissection, which also has a big stress component to it. This is four, four, you know, four out of five times it's a woman and she suffers a massive heart attack because of what's called coronary dissection, where essentially the artery rips open, just kind of tears along the, the fascial planes inside of the artery and, and the woman suffers from that. So it's, it's certainly really important in a crazy, crazy world like we live in that is predicated on fear, anxiety, worrying, stress, anger, to get people to try and come up with techniques and coping mechanisms so they don't suffer one of these really catastrophic cardiovascular diagnosis.

I agree.

But the other thing I did want to back up and say that what I hear from a lot of cardiologists is, well, if nothing else, I'm putting them on a statin for the anti inflammatory effects.

Well, so you're talking about what's called the pleiotrophic effects of statin drugs. So it's not just the fact that they lower cholesterol and ldl, they can have antioxidant capabilities, anti inflammatory capabilities, they can be supportive of blood pressure, they can be anti fibrotic, you know, leading to, you know, decreased risk of atrial fibrillation and other and other things like that. So there are, I don't know, let's say 10 other purported benefits. But again, none of it is root cause. So yes, we can Give an anti inflammatory, as we mentioned earlier, Right. We can handle the pain with OxyContin and with Vioxx, but if we're not addressing the root cause now, in some cases of Oxycontin, I mean, your root cause may have been they were shot by a, you know, you know, a rifle. I mean, or, or they're in a massive car accident. I mean, so in. But in the case of this chronic inflammatory state from violations of eat well, live well, think well, and you have inflammation, and therefore, here's your statin drug, it will never come close to identifying the root cause of inflammation. Violations of eat well, live well, think well. And even if we say it's got all these other benefits, it still only reduces heart attacks by a fraction of a percentage according to their data. Now, you and I can go full conspiratorial and say, is it possible that $150 billion drug that some of the data was, was made up?

Yeah.

You know, I mean, is that possible? I mean, you and I have both participated. I'll speak for myself. I've participated in, in research trials. I've participated in post research trials where, you know, I get this, you know, piece of paper and I start checking off all these boxes. Well, what if somebody else got the box, you know, got the, you know, got the data and started changing around my responses because their job depended on it. It's hard to get a man to understand something, you know, when his job, you know, depends on him not understanding it. So, you know, again, all these other benefit. Your statin drugs are an absolute sham. And again, it lowers numbers down. But you don't get any awards. Congratulations, Dr. Jen. You get the word for the lowest cholesterol in the world. You're like, yeah, you know, I mean, like, no, there's no award for that. You want to know, if I take something, does it lower my risk of heart attack, stroke and dying? In fact, in, in this, get this gen. In the Sparkle Trial, S P, A, R, C L. In 2006, reported New England Journal of Medicine, which is the most famous and most well known internal medicine journal in the world, out of Harvard Hospital. The Sparkle Trial was done on people who were randomized after a TIA or a stroke. Half got placebo, the other half got 80 milligrams of atorvastatin or Lipitor. So max dose. And what they found when they followed them for five years was that there was a lower risk of heart attack and stroke in the statin drug group. But here's the kicker. In the Statin drug group, five more people died than the placebo group. Not statistically significant, but don't tell me the drug saves lives. Okay. And again, to the five people in excess of who died for whatever reasons they died, they're probably not too happy about it. Their family wouldn't be too happy about it. The All Had LLC trial showed that people over 65 for primary prevention statins killed more people there. In fact, if you were 75 and older, there was a 34% higher mortality risk. That trial is called All Hat A L L H A T Dash llc. And then actually in the original statin trial, which was called FCAPS TexCaps, which was done in military hospitals in Texas, more people died in the statin group there in the original trial. Now you can find other statin studies that show different. I'm not saying that, but what I'm saying is that on overall statin drugs have very little benefits. But then also let me say this because I do want to reach to the 100 million people who are on blood pressure drugs. If you are on blood pressure drugs, your goal had better be to get off of them as soon as possible because they are deadly and it is a false sense of security. Don't think because you've been labeled with high blood pressure, you're on three drugs and your blood pressure is the same as Dr. Jen and mine, which is normal. We're not the same. You're at much, much, much higher risk. And some studies show that you with treated high blood pressure successfully are at higher risk than the hypertensive person who's untreated.

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Back to our show. I actually asked this question when I was in medical school, in my third year of medical school. You know, you finally get to put your white coat on and you. And you go on all your rotations. And we're sitting there, it was my family practice rotation and we're talking about putting the thresholds for putting people on antihypertensives. So, you know, once you get over, once you get to 140 over 80, we were supposed to start to prescribe antihypertensives. And I actually asked the doctor that was speaking to the medical students that day and I said, well, if it lowers blood pressure, is that the same as having normal blood pressure? Does it remove the risk? And he said, absolutely. And I said, I don't understand how that could be true. And he's like, well, the only important thing is lowering the blood pressure. And this happens across the board where every single day where we simply do not understand dysfunction and all we're doing is managing symptoms and manipulating data. And I actually loved Gilbert Welch's book Over Diagnosed. Did you read that one? And we essentially, as a society, we have just lowered the threshold for medicating and we are over diagnosing and we're actually making people worse. We're making people worse by treating.

Well, I mean, just. And just all the side effects, whether, you know, we talked about beta blockers and the side effects of increased blood sugar and micronutrient deficiencies also true blockers leading to.

Right.

Yes. Oh, no, tremendously. I mean, but, you know, but beta blockers, you know, for example, and, and I'll, I'll kind of wrap up this thought too, because I think your audience will find this very interesting as well. So beta blockers obviously lead to fatigue. I mean, they block adrenaline, right? The zest for life, you know, and they destroy libido. They kill not only male sexual function, erectile function, but female erectile function kills that. And that's just one class of drugs, the beta blockers. But here's the thing, just published after 40 years of doing this, when you have A heart attack. You leave the hospital on a beta blocker. Atenolol, metoprolol, carvedilol. The people who leave the hospital on a beta blocker with new data, with normal heart function, meaning the heart attack was either caught early or was a small one. It was always thought to be preventive of death and recurrent myocardial infarction. Women who got the pharmaceutical for the last 40 years, we put them at a higher risk of dying by 40%. That is called the reboot trial. It just came out. This is. I mean, again, like, a lot of women died because we prescribe these drugs without knowing the truth and the reality. And here we are now, after doing this since the mid-1980s, all through my fellowship, you know, oh, well, here's the discharge medications. Are they on? You know, you enter into the computer, right? Are they on this? Are they on this? Did they get their flu shot? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and this is. This is called the reboot trial. It got up a lot of attention recently. So if you're. If you're a woman who's on a beta blocker, if you're a woman who's on any cardiovascular drug, please understand that the goal is to get off of it safely as soon as possible. Right? You and I, Dr. Jen, are not saying, hey, if your blood pressure is 200 over 110, stop your pharmaceuticals, but you need to be on a plan to be getting off of them very quickly, because it is not a longevity strategy. You're not going to make it.

Let's talk a little bit about screening. For at least the past 10 years, all I've heard about is get a cardiac calcium score. Let's talk about that test.

So I hate that test. I've never ordered that test. I used to order a lot of nuclear stress tests because that's what paid the bills. And that's what I was instructed when I moved out to Arizona in 2002 from Chicago. I sat down with the head of the cardiology group, and he said, listen, Jack, this is how we do it out here in Arizona. We order nuclear stress tests on everybody. Why? Because it pays $2,000 to the practice every time we inject somebody with a nuclear, you know, drug. And he said, if you want to make a lot of money and you want to have a nice house and nice cars and take the women for fancy meals and trips, this is what you're going to do. And I'm like, well. And he said, if you don't want to do that, you can move back to Chicago. And I said, that's why I moved to Arizona. It's cold in Chicago. I don't want to go back there. And I didn't know. I mean, ripping off insurance companies, that didn't really matter to me at the time. And even that was justified, where it's like, oh, you know, we only get 350 bucks to do a pacemaker, so we may as well do this and make money there. And it's all a trade off. I never understood, it never occurred to me that injecting someone with nuclear material, radioactive material, would be deleterious to their health. And now, of course, I can look back on it and say, well, how many cases of cancer did we cause? How many cases of leukemia? Right? How many cases of leukemia occur? Because people are getting nuclear stress tests every single year. And it occurred to a close family friend, the guy had nuclear, you know, stress tests every year. He had like three or four angiograms. He had stents placed, he had bypass surgery. And what happens at the age of 70, he comes down with acute myelogenous leukemia. He's dead within two months. And everybody's running around saying, what happened to him? How this happened, how this happened to my father? You know, okay, CT scams. They are dangerous, useless radiation. All radiation is bad when we can avoid it. As far as I'm concerned, some people will argue about a hormetic effect of low dose radiation. I don't see how medical radiation is going to be beneficial. And somebody may say, well, you get the same amount of radiation flying from Philadelphia to Tokyo. Okay, if you were flying Dr. Jen from Philadelphia to Tokyo to speak, you would have a reason to do so. Like, I'm going to Tokyo to speak. I'm going there because I want to see Tokyo. I would have a reason. There's no reason to get a CT scan. The CT scan tells you about coronary calcification that has been occurring since you were in your mother's womb. And actually before that. It doesn't tell you what's happening now. What tells you what's happening now are the markers of inflammation, oxidative stress, homocysteine lp, intracellular vitamins, minerals, proteins, fats. I want to know my toxin burden. You know, what is my plastic level? What is my bisphenol A level? When plastic is a bigger risk factor than just about everything like smoking, drinking, diabetes, obesity, high blood pressure, combined times two, plastic is worse. So I want to know those things. The CT scan can be used. If this is your Philosophy, if my score is a zero, I will continue on a very healthy path. If my score is elevated, I will go on a statin drug. I could see how that could be utilized. I disagree with that philosophy. But because I don't prescribe statin drugs, I like to do the most advanced blood and urine testing in the world. And ultimately this also, the coronary artery calcium scan is a cascade type test. Meaning you get this test, you know, this obviously from the breast world. You get the mammogram and it leads to, you know, the biopsy, it leads to repeat studies and on and on and on and on and on.

It's the door that opens to.

Yeah, it is.

It's the cascade.

And insurance companies, that's why they don't pay for the coronary scan. They because they don't believe it's effective. And they know it's a cascade. Because what happens is the hospitals now offer this as $100 test, which is a lost leader. I mean, you're paying the technician more and the equipment. But it is a gateway in the sense of. Right. It opens the door. Now, we've labeled you with coronary artery calcification. Now we can do a nuclear stress test. And when that become, when that is, you know, an equivocal result, we're not sure, you know, again, there may be something there. Now they get a coronary invas of angiogram. Now they get a stent for a 70% blockage. And the doctor walks in and says, I saved your life. I prevented a heart attack. When that is a lie. According to multiple trials, including the 2020 ISCHEMIA trial, which was done by the doctors at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester. And that is stands on the back of the 2007 trial of again, which shows that stents and bypass surgery help symptoms. They don't prevent heart attacks. They don't save lives. They are for symptoms. So if you're not having symptoms, they have no benefits. And if you are having symptoms, how do we best deal with symptoms? Either naturally with pharmaceuticals or with stents or bypass routines. Surgery. But the doctor comes in with the bravado and the machismo of I saved you. And it is a lie. According to two massive trials from the top cardiologists in the world.

We have the very same thing in the breast world, where we know that the only thing that screening mammogram leads to is more breast cancer diagnoses, somewhere between 20 to 30% more breast cancer diagnoses. So if you don't screen with Mammogram, you will diagnose about. Five cancers per. And I'm sorry, 10 cancers per 1,000 women. If you screen with mammogram, you'll diagnose 15 cancers per thousand women. So that's essentially 33%, right? 33% more cancers. And yet these women who are screening with mammogram and getting diagnosed with a cancer that would have never been. Become symptomatic in her lifetime, would have never affected her over her lifetime. And this system is essentially creating this situation where these women are now grateful. Thank you. You saved my life. Mammogram saved my life. When in actuality, it's, it's causing, it's costing their life. Because anytime we treat a woman for breast cancer, we are changing her forever. We're changing her state of mind, fear her and her cardiovascular health from all of the treatments because they put everyone in menopause, they make menopause worse. The radiation, the surgery, the deformity, I mean, the effects are enormous. And if 33% of those women did not need that treatment, what are we doing?

How many millions of women have been traumatized, you know, and their lives just like, turned upside down? And like you said, with the fear, the worry, the anxiety of the post traumatic stress disorder, of living with a medical diagnosis and, or the treatment of that pts, medical ptsd, which is probably the biggest, biggest cause of ptsd, the biggest one is from the medical doctors, you know, leading that. And, you know, it's just, again, it's just such a shame on so many different levels. You know, the women who have suffered, you know, from this. And again, the same thing in the cardiac world. Let me say one more thing too, and maybe I'll get, you know, you can offer your take on it. When I got a call from a medical school friend of mine a few weeks ago, and he said, I've got this pre cancerous lesion that they're concerned about and it's on the side of my nose, and they want to do a Mohs procedure and you know, do you have any other therapies? And I said, I'll give you some other ideas that I have, but I want to say this. If you have cancer somewhere, be it the breast or, you know, skin cancer, whatever it may be, it is a sign that you are an unhealthy person, you are a sick person from the top of your head to the tip of your toes, and that's what needs to be fixed. Yes, they can carve out part of your nose. Yes, we can chop off part of your breast. And we can consider that area if we want cured. But the human frame is sick enough that it allowed that to flourish. Right? But we think about this as this isolated thing where it's like, oh, it was just, you know, it was just in my breast. It was just there, and something went haywire there. But the rest of me is healthy, and that's not the case.

Disconnection that almost everyone is suffering from. Right? My patients come to me and they say I'm healthy, except I have breast cancer. And that's because they have been so trained to believe this. They believe that this is true. They believe that they have a bad breast or your friend has a bad spot on. On the skin of his nose, right? We are trained to believe this, and that's because it. It's exactly what the system wants us to believe. Because this is actually why I left conventional medicine. This is why, specifically why? Because we are completely focused on the symptom and not the system, right? And the symptom's not the problem. And in cancer, the tumor is the symptom, but the tumor's not the problem. It's the symptom of the problem. And we need to back up 10 steps and ask, what does your body have that it doesn't need? What does it need that it doesn't have? Where is the dysfunction coming from? Where is the inflammation coming from? Why did this. Why was this even allowed to happen? Because if you have an intact immune system. Listen, we all make cancer cells, right? We all make mistakes every single day, from the very young to the very old, everyone in between. We all make cancer cells. But an intact immune system recognizes those cancer cells and destroys them. So what is happening? And it really is that that process was allowed to proceed.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, like you said, it is an immuno dysfunction, you know, that does not allow our body to perform surveillance on cells that would spontaneously mutate or mutate, obviously, from other toxins that would eventually grow into cancer. The other thing I like, too, is then when people like. So they were. They were perfectly healthy, and then they got, you know, breast cancer. They were perfectly healthy, and then they had a heart attack. Healthy people, perfectly healthy people don't have breast cancer or heart attacks. So they weren't perfectly healthy. They may look good. They may, you know, be on the treadmill, you know, you know, two hours a day, and they may be eating all of their cheerios and oatmeal for breakfast, Blah. All kind of, you know, poison, you know, type stuff. You know, oh, they were so healthy. And then, you know, they had this. That they were not healthy. Healthy people. Healthy people didn't die of COVID Healthy people didn't die of heart attacks or strokes or cancer. Healthy people didn't develop dementia, you know, or autoimmune. Right. They weren't healthy.

This is a very hard pill, sorry for the pun, for people to swallow.

And.

I think a lot of people receive that as blame and shame. And so it's way easier for them to think that some. Something else caused it and they weren't complicit in it. And it's not about blame or shame, but you have to, on some level, if you want to. To be healthy, you have to, on some level accept that what you were before wasn't. And that's very hard for people. Very hard for people. So I do want to get into. Because we've talked about a lot of the things that you shouldn't do. Right. I want to get into what should people be doing? What should we be doing for cardiovascular screening, for metabolic health screening for. For overall screening.

Right. Well, and that's so the way that you know that you're healthy, I believe, is through blood and urine testing. And you do hundreds of different tests, which many companies offer, and you get the results of these hundreds of tests. And then you look at all the. These are all the good things about Dr. Jenkins, these are all the bad things about Dr. Jen. And then you try over time to move all the bad things, all the bad numbers into the good category. And the more you have all those numbers in the good category, then you know you're tracking for your best chance for longevity. Right. You know that if you have the highest levels of omega 3 fatty acids in your blood, you have the lowest risk of everything. You know that if you've got controlled homocysteine, normal inflammation, normal levels of oxidative stress, you. That you have a lower risk. You know, true that. You know, apolipoprotein B and A2 lipid markers, when that ratio is low, you know that you're on track. I'm not saying take a statin drug to fix that number. Obviously, I've spoke about that in nauseam already. But, you know, again, if you naturally have good apoba levels, you know, you're on track. If you. One of my favorite tests is intracellular vitamin K2 K2 keeps calcium in the bones and out of the arteries. Oh, I'm taking a K2 supplement. Great. Is it getting inside of the cells? Because that's where the action happens. And then also again, I'm also a huge fan of toxin testing because a lot of people, Dr. Jenner, walking around, they have normal inflammation, normal oxidative stress. All of the, all those parameters look good. But if we want to be really proactive, look at the toxin burden, because the toxins will be there. Plastics, pesticides, phthalates, parabens, and those are just the P words. They will be present before inflammation, oxidative stress, et cetera. So you may get a person who's 18 years old and all their conventional numbers look great, but if you peel back the onion on the toxin category, that's a great opportunity to say you've got all these toxins, you better lower your toxin burden or disease will show up down the road.

Yeah, it, it still amazes me the number of people that I see still drinking out of plastic bottles, walking around with plastic containers. It, it blows my mind. Like, how did you miss that memo?

You know what's crazy though, Dr. Jen, recent, you know, studies talked about how even water, you know, in glass bottles have plastic in there as well. And there's the article actually talked about how. I'm not sure exactly how this happens, but on the cap, the paint on the cap, that's all plastic on there. And how somehow in the manufacturing process, some of that gets into the water. But here's the kicker. The underside of the cap, that's all plastic in there. And then that sits in the bottle and maybe it sits behind, you know, Walmart or Costco or Whole Foods or wherever you get it from. And there you have it. So I'm not. Plastic is ubiquitous in the world. There's, there's no way to totally avoid it, but you can obviously try your best. One major offender, Dr. Jen Too, is plastic clothing, right? So the polyester nylon, you know, the women coming out and their Spanx and their Lululemon and stuff like that, that just goes right into their skin and they're dead. I mean, breast cancer, I mean, I mean, you name it, right from that, you know, synthetic bra materials, you probably don't love that all ad nauseam and.

Stuff like that, still holding on. Like the stuff that I've had for a zillion years. I haven't thrown it out yet. I'm wearing one pair right now. But that, you know, over time I have converted nearly everything, nearly everything. And it's impossible to do every single thing.

It's, it's, it's, it's impossible to avoid it. Listen, this is organic cotton. This is From a company called wearpack. I'm wearing organic cotton sweatpants, and in case anyone cares, I'm wearing organic cotton underwear. Why? Because I don't want to die like my father did. At 63, I've got four children, including all the 18, 13, 7, and 4. I was changing diapers, Dr. Jen, when I was 50.

I know that's a lot.

And I don't want to die. I want to continue to mountain bike and to hike, and I want to be. I just want to be an active person. So I do all these different things. One other thing, too, that I want to mention that I think is the most catastrophic of everything, because plastic is up there, pesticides are up there. There's a lot of, you know, emf and everybody walking around with their earbuds, and, you know, I mean, there's so many bad and even holistic practitioners, you know. Dr. Jen, I, I. Sorry to go off on another tangent. I often comment on social media.

No earbuds.

Thank you. No, no, no, no. I know you're not. I thank you for showing that. Okay. It automatically discredits any health authority if they're talking to you while. Or they're making a video while a wearing wireless earbuds, wired or. Okay, it's not optimal, but it's certainly better than, you know, WI fi and Bluetooth if they're wearing wireless earbuds or if they're wearing sunglasses. Never take health advice from someone wearing sunglasses. Okay.

I did a whole thing about that, that people are out there with sunglasses coated in sunblock, and wondering why they're not healthy.

I walk around like, you know, we live in the mountains of Colorado, and I walk around Aspen, and everybody is a billionaire. Everybody's got their designer this and that, and they are just. They're just dead man walking. Just dead man walking is what it is. If you live in a home that has water damage leading to mold and. Or bacteria, you're done. And one mechanism of how you're done is because mold is a major immunosuppressant. And when you mentioned before, when your immune system is not working, you develop cancer and you develop heart disease. I have a graphic that I created 14 different ways mold, mycotoxins lead to cardiovascular disease, you know, LDL receptor dysfunction, endothelial nitric oxide synthase, you know, dysfunction, you know, autonomic issues. All these things all from the medical literature. Right? I mean, I mean, that's one thing about you and I, is that, you know, we are governed by, you know, certain authorities and malpractice so it's like when we quote stuff, we're not, you know. You know, it's right out of the medical literature that the other doctors aren't reading. But if you're living in a. In a home with water damage, mold, and. Or bacteria, it goes back to the Bible, the original Testament. Moses is talking about this 3,500 years ago. If you're living in the book of Leviticus, if you're living in mold, it needs to be remediated. If you can't remediate it and it's not successfully inspected by the local rabbi, you tear the whole house down. And we live in a society right now where 99% of the structures are compromised.

Wow.

I didn't know that it was that bad. I knew that it was bad, obviously. And there are so many people who. They have no idea that they've been exposed to mold. And you test them and their numbers are off the charts. But I think that a lot of it is. We have just continued to lower our bar and lower our standards so people don't come to me, and they have a white blood cell count of three, and their physician is saying, nothing.

Nothing.

That's such a great point. That's such a great. Just from the most simple blood test in the world, the white blood cell count being low. And you and I would have both been guilty of this. Right. We would have, you know, 15, 20 years ago. You know, maybe we're still in medical training. Yeah. Okay. It's outside of the norm, but not by much.

Right.

Not a big deal.

Let go. Yeah.

When I see a low white blood cell count, even a little bit on the low side, immediately. Right. That is a perfect sign that something is leading to, you know, decreased production or increased destruction of that. But it is a great marker, and it's beautiful to see. When they undergo our treatments and recommendations, when that number comes up into the.

Normal range, it's certainly my head goes to mold and metals and. And the dentists haven't helped us out either because there's so much dysfunction in the mouth, some of which was actually created by the dental industry. And between the fluoride and the mercury and the root canals, they're. They're really setting people up for definitely cardiovascular disease and breast cancer.

Well, just the whole destruction of the oral microbiome. But that also goes back to, you know, and I had both of our teenagers read, you know, Weston A. Price's original book from the 1920s. He's the dentist who's traveling around the world with his wife by boats. And they go to look at native populations. And what they look at is how the native population has, you know, eating their native foods and living their native lifestyle, which is outdoors, sunshine, lots of physical activity. And what do they have? They've got big faces, big round faces, big nasal passages, big oropharynx, oral cavities where the teeth are absolutely perfect. And then they contrast that with the same people, the same genetic people, but these are the people who interacted with the white man. So now this is, for example, the woman who now works for the white man in the city and eats the white man's foods and now has a child with small nasal features, small oral cavity, teeth that are crowded. Now you've got sinus infections, dental infections, dental problems, breathing problems. And you set the stage when the answer was just live like our ancestors. And when I read that Dr. Jen, in 2005, it was like this epiphany moment of this is, you know, it was just like you found, like Noah's Ark. I mean, it was, it was incredible.

James Nestor does a great job describing that whole phenomenon too, and the skull studies and how our, our faces are just getting taller, more narrow, more crowded and there's just not room for the teeth anymore, there's not room for the tongue anymore. And it's all because we stopped chewing, we stopped breathing, we stopped doing all the things that we are supposed to be doing.

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We stopped breastfeeding, right? I mean, so, you know, a thousand years ago you were either breastfed or you died, right?

There wasn't a choice.

You know, so, you know, and again, Nestor, Nestor brought it, you know, to, you know, to the attention of a lot of people, you know, for sure. But to go back and see the original pictures from Weston A. Price's book, I mean, it's just, it's so incredible. You know, when I was a, when I was a cardiology fellow, I, I was at a debate at the American College of Cardiology meetings in Orlando. And, and the debate was between the late Robert Adkins of, you know, low carb, high fat fame versus Dean Ornish, who's still alive. Adkins died in a traumatic accident, head trauma, but you know, Dean Ornish was, you know, the low fat guy, although he had a lot of other things that he, you know, talked about. He talked about mindfulness and yoga and meditation and activity. So Ornish had a lot of different things. But I saw these guys debate back then and they absolutely hated each other. But I walked out of that meeting saying, wow, the low fat hypothesis is wrong. High fat seems like the way to go. But I mean, listen, I was a 28 year old single guy in Chicago eating Chicago deep dish pizza and ethnic foods and I didn't make any changes. But I think it made me very receptive to the power of nutrition when I learned the truth from Weston A. Price about this kind of paleolithic hunter gathering type of diet and life. But it's also the lifestyle and this whole eat well, which we all debate, the live well, sleep, sunshine, physical activity, women getting sunshine on their breasts. Right? I'm sure you've talked about that many times. Women walking around topless like their ancestors did, and the skin is a solar panel built to collect light, which is why those idiots wearing sunglasses that are blocking their solar panel eyeballs. But then you wrap in this whole inside of LiveWell is not living in mold and, or bacteria. And if you think you're not living in it, you're wrong. And you better get your house tested with the number eight Swiffer test from a company called Envirobiomics where you collect dust samples and you send that into the company and you're looking at for water damage, mold and water damage, bacteria, because the bacteria produce endotoxins, exotoxins, and the way these really injure us, I think the first thing is that they destroy the oral microbiome and the gut microbiome, leading to leaky gut, intestinal hyperpermeability and then inflammation, oxidative stress, immunodisfunction, heart attack, stroke, dead. I mean, all that kind of stuff. Stuff. But yeah, it's a big one. It's a big one. You know, One thing too, Dr. Jen, as it relates to mold, you and I both in our careers came across people who were on a pharmaceutical called CellCept. CellCept. C E L L C E P T. It is a pharmaceutical given to people after an organ transplant. They got a new heart, new liver, new kidney because it is an immunosuppressant, so it suppresses your immune system so it doesn't attack the new organ as a foreign invader. CellCept is the immunosuppressant and Cellcept is only mycophenolic acid, a mycotoxin so powerful they put it into a capsule. What if you're living in a home with mold that produces mycophenolic acid, do you think you may be more likely to develop cancer, heart disease, or die from an infection?

I actually have a patient who lives just by the plant that makes cellcept. And her mycophenolic acid levels are off the charts. And the plant is saying that it can't possibly be them.

Yeah.

Okay, so lastly, I, I've seen your physique, your, you know, you, you post a lot. Everyone wants to know, what do you do? Because you look phenomenal. I mean, you are the textbook.

Well, thank you for, for saying that. You know, even I suffer from kind of like a complex of like, I still, I still kind of have like that dad bod going on because, you know, I, I do have a sugar addiction like most people do. So my, I, I don't drink alcohol anymore except for just on like rare occasion. There's no room for alcohol. It's just so bad for so many different things. And a lot of data on, on the negative effects cardiovascular wise. And I used to drink a lot, obviously in my 20s and, and stuff like that. And I was going through undergrad, so.

You don't. Wine is good for heart disease?

No, no, no, no, no, no. If I was a red wine manufacturer, I would do that. But, you know, I mean, I mean, again, we can all debate that, but. Well, you know, what about the French? The French drink a lot and the Europeans drink a lot. I just don't think there's any need to do so. And I don't think there's any health benefits personally that we can't get from other places. But you know, alcohol neurotoxin, brain toxin, liver toxin. If you're busy, if your liver is busy trying to break down alcohol into its subsequent components, it's not going to be able to break down all the other environmental toxins that it's trying to do. It's not trying to, you know, remove old LDLs with the LDL receptors out of circulation.

It's always going to go to the thing that will kill you the first and Right. Alcohol is more toxic than the byproducts of things that you already make and you're body. So alcohol is always going to take precedent in a detoxification order. And so you're not going to detox the things that you need to detox. It's not as if your liver can do both. It has to choose. Yeah.

And I think a lot of.

People are running out too without drinking alcohol. They lead very different lives than we do and so they will tolerate more than we can. And when they stop living differently than we do, they have the same disease profile that we do. As the world becomes more Americanized, they start to suffer the same disease as we do.

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think also too when people need to examine why they drink, why they feel the need to decompress at the end of the day, why they feel the need to use alcohol in social situations because otherwise they suffer from anxiety, I think they really need to do a deep introspection there. And there's some people who've done some good stuff, you know, like alcohol freedom method. You know, this is not alcoholics but it's a matter of you're using alcohol to kind of COVID up for something else and that's not a good strategy. Okay, so instead of like self, you know, deprecation of myself about how much sugar I consume and the, and the way that I consume most of my sugar would be in the form of raw honey. But the way that I stay as healthy as possible and, and, and, and my blood work does look very good is that number. I mean everything comes down to do more of the good stuff, less of the bad stuff. So I only eat organic food, I only eat wild seafood, I only eat free range grass fed meats including the organs, preferably bison. I only eat again organic plant material. I'm not the carnivore cardiologist, I'm not the keto cardiologist, I'm the paleo cardiologist. But here's what happens, Dr. Jen, you and I meet up at a conference and we want to go out for a meal. We're finding a farm to table restaurant or we're going to a local organic grocery store or co op and sitting in the car talking or sitting outside at a picnic bench talking while we're having, you know, a can of sardines and an avocado. I never cheat. I never, ever, ever cheat. My buddies and I are going to Vegas to celebrate someone's 60th birthday. I pick the restaurants, I pick the hotel. I stop at the local Whole Foods in on Las Vegas Boulevard. When I land and I pick up my supplies, I only drink organic coffee and that's my card. I have a car, I have a company called Cardiology Coffee, which 5% of all pro of all revenue, not profit. Excuse me, all revenue goes to a group called Friends of Honduran Children to help give back to the Honduran community. Not pharmaceuticals and vaccines, but healthy stuff down there, trying to actually teach them how to organically farm and build healthy shelter. Okay. But in addition to the food, I get sunshine, I get sleep, I get physical activity outdoors, I go to the chiropractor. I have relationships that are very positive with God, with my wife, with my children, with my friends. And if I don't have positive relationships with friends, as you and I both have former colleagues that we used to be friends with and now we're not, we. We don't talk to those people very often. Bless the memories that we have with those people. You know, we went here, we were there, did all this. It's all in the past, but that's how I think ultimately. It helps me maintain my physique, if you will. To wrap it up though, I'm talking to you right now inside of my sprinter van. And we are living in vinyl tents. So we do not have any mold and, or bacteria exposure from water damaged materials. And we are in the process of building our home in the mountains of Costa Rica out of concrete, steel and glass. And it will be a situation where mold has a very limited chance to affect us. But I talk the talk and I walk the walk. And Jen, you know that there's a lot of people in our space, the health space, who say one thing and then do another.

Yeah.

And I'm not that guy.

I'm right there with you. And I do find it astounding when you're at these conferences and, you know, the things that we talk to people about every single day and the importance of what you do matters.

Right.

And then I go out to eat with these people and I'm shocked at what they eat.

The biggest name. The biggest names in the field. The biggest names in the field, Right.

My mind blows. My mind.

Yeah. And not only that, it's just, and not only is unhealthy. I mean, why would you ever want to support those companies? Right. I'm up on stage and I'm talking about coffee. Coffee. I started my brand Cardiology Coffee because I wanted people to know coffee is heart healthy. And if you drink the good stuff, I could, I, it can be tremendously healthy. Now unfortunately, a lot of people go into their, you know, they going to their doctor, doctor says don't drink coffee. Meanwhile, the doctor goes out and drinks coffee out of a styrofoam cup. But they tell you not to. So my intention there was to say, hey, coffee can be heart healthy, especially when you do the right stuff. And then I'll rail on Starbucks, you know, for example. And then there's, while there's people in the audience when I'm lecturing drinking Starbucks and then when I say coffee and Starbucks, they're thinking, I've got to go out and get another Starbucks because I need to get jacked up again. And it's like I just said, the stuff is loaded with, you know, acrylates and all the pesticides and you're drinking it out of a plastic cup. A plastic cup that they serve at a million degrees. You're killing yourself. And all anybody can think about is, I need to go get a refill.

When I go to speak and they hand me a plastic bottle and I say, you hired me, you know what I talk about? Why are you handing me a plastic bottle of water when you know I'm not going to drink that? And I brought my water with me.

And I always do. It's, it's so crazy the health related events that they take you to unhealthy places. I don't know if you've ever done any work with JJ Virgin.

JJ is a dear friend and I was in her mentorship for three years.

Okay, so I will say this about JJ. I went to JJ's. I went to mind share her event in 2000 2015. It remains the only event that I've ever been to where actually they did everything right.

They did all the food, everything was curating everything. Because JJ also walks her talk.

Yep. And, and like to see that, you know, I'm part of a group also like Joe Polish's Genius network. They do okay.

With it, you know, so unhealthy network. It makes me crazy.

I know, I know, I know. It's unfortunate. But, you know, listen, you know, all we can do is continue to be that model because, yeah, we do it for our own personal salvation and our own health, but also that's how we really can kind of live it, to lead it, you know, to say, okay, I'm really walking that talk and if I can do it, if this Chicago, you know, north suburban Jewish kid can live in a tent with his wife, four children, a dog, and now 13 cats.

Why do you have 13 cats?

I'd say crazy stories. So we had. We had two male cats up in the mountains of Colorado. One of the cats didn't come back one day. We adopted a female cats and she came to us, she was pregnant, so she had six in a litter. And then she went out, she got knocked up again. She had another litter of six. We didn't fix her. My wife can't come to fixing these animals. So we have 13 cats right now. They all eat the absolute best food. They eat raw, you know, raw organs, raw bison, you know, meat and stuff like that. They get seafood, they get the best diets in the world. But that's how we're living, right? But again, my point is, if I can live this lifestyle and run a business and talk to patients and do consultations and do social media and, you know, speak at events, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, anyone can. As long as you have a partner who will help you do that. And I think that's where, unfortunately, you know, Dr. Jen, most the men say they feel fine. It's the women who are the canary in the coal mine. They're living in the mold house. They're losing their hair, they've got eczema, they've got hormonal issues, they've got gastrointestinal issues, they've got psych issues. And the, and, and the man looks and I'm like, I feel fine.

There is a total total disconnect. We had it in my house, house, and my husband was like, no, everything's fine. And I said, I know everything is not fine.

And the women are the canary in the coal mine for a whole variety of reasons. Obviously it goes back, you know, you know, prehistorically again. Like the women, you know, the women would know when is a safe child, when is it safe to have a child or not? The body tells them this environment is not safe. You need to move. So your body is, you know, is screaming out, I'm not Safe here. But the men, they don't get it because they feel fine. Meanwhile, they're overweight, they've got no libido, erectile dysfunction, high blood pressure, high cholesterol on three meds, on the verge of having a heart attack, but they're fine. And you're crazy. So you need. If you want to live, you need to have that real tough conversation. Because if I were to say to my wife back in 2018, when she was struggling with baby number three, struggling with breastfeeding, producing enough milk, baby number three, our daughter journey, didn't have a good. Was not good at breastfeeding, did not have good suction, did not have good latch, and it was all because of mold. And my wife said to me, we have mold in the house. Jen, she was sitting at the kitchen table. She had a glutathione nebulizer in one hand and breast pump in the other, while our, you know, our assistant in the house, our nanny assistant, you know, to help with the other two kids, while I was busy working, she's holding a baby journey, and my wife sees a stream of water coming from under the kitchen sink. And she opened up the cabinet and she kind of got a glimpse under the floorboard and saw that there was something there that smelled funny. She walked out of the house, and she never returned. If I was to say, we're not leaving the house, we're going to do whatever, she would have said, get the f out. Either you listen to me or get out. We're not going to do this to our children or we're getting divorced. We're not going to live in this, or we're getting divorced. And if you wanted to kind of mix stories here, if you want to throw away our marriage because I don't want to inject my child against hepatitis B or chickenpox, then we're done. And there are men who are out there and they're, oh, no, what are you talking about? That we have to do that, you know? Anyways, I also tell this to the men, too. And, Jen, you'll appreciate this. It sucks when the women are always right. I feel your pain, gentlemen. I do. I do. I feel your pain. I do. They're always right. And if we just listen to them in the beginning, everything will just be better. You know, It's. It's.

I can't let you get away without asking you. What do you think the impact of what the government mandated for many, many millions of Americans in 2021? What do you think the impact of that Was.

Well, you know, let me say this, is that I've been doing lectures about natural immunity since I met my wife. We've been lecturing since 2005, 2006. I was on CNN in 2015 during the alleged measles outbreak in Disneyland. And it was always going to be, what's going to be next? In fact, medical articles, they would talk about this and they would say, you know, bird flu, swine flu, Zika, what's next? Well, what was next, obviously, was, was Covid. And on many different levels. I think obviously it was catastrophic, horrific. And maybe the ultimate thing is that what we always need to preserve are two things. Number one, our freedom to question everything and our freedom over our own bodies. I always choose the freedom line. I hate the fact that I can, if I choose freedom, that means you're free to inject your child, which I'm against. But I have to give you that freedom. I guess I have to come down in the freedom line of like, if you want to poison your child, and that could be with injections, that could be with pharmaceuticals, antibiotics, that could be with, you know, Froot Loops or Cocoa Pebbles. If you want to do that to your child, I guess that is your freedom to do so. I think it's child abuse, but you're free to do it. But I need to be free over what I do with my family. And there's a lot of different nuance amongst all that as well. But I do think that that was the biggest, you know, psyop, that was the biggest coercion, that was the biggest fraud you know, perpetrated on humans that ever was. And I would say hopefully that ever will be. But again, there's always something coming next, so be prepared. I'll be, I'll be in the mountains of Costa Rica, people, if you need me.

What, what do you think the impact was from a cardiovascular perspective?

I saw a lot. I saw a lot. Now, granted, I don't have a. I personally do not have a high volume practice, right. Just like you, I don't see a high volume, you know, so. But I did see a lot of myocarditis, pericarditis. I saw a lot of atrial fibrillation, I saw a lot of palpitations, PACS, PVCs. I saw several heart attacks, strokes, DVT, unexplained sudden collapse in testosterone in one male. And I saw two cases, including a good friend of mine from medical school of Bell's Palsy. So I saw a lot of devastation there. And out of my entire database of over 3,000 names. Only two people allegedly died of COVID Okay? Both of which, I mean, nobody follows the program to the T that Jack Wolfson does, or relatively few people do. Relatively few people are walking around with organic cotton underwear, living in a tent. I mean, there's not many of us. But the two people who did, again, they weren't fully following everything I said. And interestingly enough, both were taking ivermectin prophylactically. So I'm here to say, and this is a debate in the medical world, in the holistic world, I think ivermectin is a false flag. I think that we are not deficient in ivermectin. We are deficient in eat well, live well, think well. That's what leads to disease. And ivermectin or anything else, it's not going to be the answer. Some people will say I took Ivor, you know, and 12 hours later I had no symptoms. I could also tell you that if you feel lousy, you could take steroids, right? You can take a Medrol dose pack and you'll feel like a million bucks, you know, in short course. Yeah, it won't last, you know, but, you know, again, it's a matter of like, what is this doing to our bodies anyways? But, you know, fool me once, you know, you know, shame on you if you fall for this again. People, if you're walking around with a face covering, which is your breathing apparatus, and you're breathing in all these microplastic particles all day long, you're living in fear, anxiety, worry, social isolate. People who identify as socially isolated have four times the risk of cardiovascular mortality over any time frame. So social isolation is devastating. And they just did that to people for years. They put them in social isolation. And there are so many people who sat in their homes by themselves and they silently died. And that is evil on just many levels.

And I mean, just knowing what it did to our youth, you know, it's just. It's devastating. It's absolutely devastating.

Jen. I mean, I mean, at the time I'm walking around, we have a newborn baby in 2001. Our daughter Journey is, you know, three, four years old. How do you explain to a child what's going on in society why everyone is walking, some idiots talking to them. And I got, oh, hey, little girl, how are you? You know, and then my daughter would say to them in the elevator, she just blurted out, did you get the COVID shots? And they're like, yes, I did. They were like, roll up Their sleeve and that's their. And then my three year old daughter, my four year old daughter, she would look at them, Jen, and say, you're gonna die. And you know, whether or not they did die, I don't know. And you know, again, there's so many different things about that. But yeah, how do, how do, how do the healthy youth like unpack that? I mean just what we did to the children, sending them to school and masks was just, wow, was that sadistic what, what people did. And then how you can inject an unknown poison into a child with zero. You can debate short term data all you want but obviously just by definition, zero long term data, zero evidence of what's going to happen down the road, how you could do that, again, the source of it can only be evil. And the pharmaceutical companies, the people who control the pharmaceutical companies, it's just evil on another level. And all we can do is continue to fight.

Absolutely. This was amazing. It was so great to have you. I'm excited for you and your next chapter in your, in your mold free, bacteria free home in Costa Rica. And I know that this will be the first of many conversations we will have in the future. But where can people find you if they, if they are looking for your wise counsel and tell us where they can find the coffee.

Thank you so much, Dr. Jen. Well, my website is natural heart doctor.com and we've got lots of information there, lots of blogs, lots of articles, you know, that are on there. We have, you know, doctors and coaches who do consultations courses and webinars. I'm doing a big webinar tonight on blood pressure, natural treatment solutions to blood pressure. And then Cardiology Coffee is just@thatCardiologyCoffee.com you can also buy it from Jeff Bezos and the people over at Amazon. We do sell it on Amazon and again it's all organic, no glyphosate, no mold, mycotoxins and it tastes great. And then 5% of all revenue goes back to that organization's. So the coffee was actually started, it's a, it was a women's co op in the 1990s in Honduras to try and get women to kind of rise out of poverty. That's how it was started down there. And then we started getting the coffee about five years ago and yeah, what else can I tell you? I appreciate you, I appreciate your friendship. You know, again, just having another supportive person with someone with your credentials, you know, as a surgeon, as a breast cancer surgeon, specialist, you know, to be able to Kind of be on the same team. And really, ultimately, you know, because a lot of us are on that island, and especially when we're so extreme and you get people with such extreme views and you're just trying to fight against the medical community. And, you know, back to what you said before, like, you know, although, if I didn't get a mammogram, I would have died. Or these people who they. If I didn't get a coronary artery calcium scan, or if my husband didn't get the coronary artery calcium scan that led to his bypass, he would have died. And it's like, no, that's not true. So to have someone like you on the same side to kind of come in as well and saying, hey, what Wolfson's, you know, saying is true, and for me to come in and say what Dr. Simmons is saying is true, like, the more of us that kind of band together against the industry, that's how we're going to save a lot of people and help a lot of people. Because, you know, the life expectancy of the American male is 76. The American female is like 79.

Yeah.

I mean, come on, does anybody want that? And the last 10 to 15 years of those people's lives are in and out of the doctor's office and the pharmacy while they can't even get up out of the.

I mean, the quality of life is awful. And so I know that it's your mission to help people to live long, healthy, productive, meaningful, connected, purposeful lives. Right. And we should all live as long as possible, healthy and young and die young. Right. At a very old age. Right.

I love it.

Thank you.

So, thank you so much for joining me today. And thank you all for joining me today. I know that we talked about a lot of things, things that a lot of people need to hear, and a lot of them are probably the exact opposite of what you have been told previously or what you understood to be true. And it's okay if what we talked about today made you feel a little uncomfortable, because we really only grow in our discomfort. So sit with it, listen to it again, share it with someone that you love, and know that I will be back next week, same time, same place. It's Dr. Jen. Bye for now.