4: Redefining Cancer: A Holistic Approach to Overcoming Breast Cancer with Chris Wark

Hello and welcome to the Kenya breasts podcast with Dr. Jen. The show dedicated to empowering women through knowledge, tools and resources to take control of your breast health journey. I'm your host, Dr. Jen Simmons, and I'm thrilled to have you join me on this insightful and inspiring journey. As a breast cancer surgeon turned functional medicine physician, I'm on a mission to empower women to live their breast I need best lives. This podcast dives deep into all topics related to breast health, including prevention, diagnosis, treatment, and holistic approaches to support overall well being. You know what I say? Breast health is health. So no matter who you are, a breast cancer survivor, newly diagnosed in treatment, living with metastatic disease, or you're simply seeking to improve your breast health, this podcast is for you. Join us on this transformative path towards better breast health and a thriving life. And now, let's get to today's episode. Hello and welcome to the Keeping abreast podcast with Dr. Jen Simmons. I could not be more delighted than to have my guest with me today. This is a man who. I'm sure he's an inspiration to everyone, but he was particularly inspiring to me for reasons that we're going to talk about. But, you know, I was on a very conventional medical path as a provider, and I just. There's so much fear when you change paths and when you change direction and when you go against the grain and when you see people who have kind of followed their instinct and. And walked the path less traveled and did it so successfully and then became a hero to so many people. You were a tremendous inspiration to me. So today we have Chris Wart here from Chris E. Cancer. And one of the very first experiences that I had when I was kind of transitioning from the conventional medical world to what I call the integrative oncology space, is that I attended one of your summits and day after day, I just, like, sucked up everything that you were talking about like a sponge. And I'm not sure that you are necessarily grateful for the. For the path, although it has been wonderful and amazing for you. And we'll talk about all these blessings in disguise later. But first, I just want to welcome you here.

Well, thank you, Jen. That was such a sweet introduction. It really makes me. Makes me blush a little bit. You know, when I. When I started sharing my story, the last thing on my mind. I mean, I never expected any physician to pay attention to anything I had to say. No and. But little.

And I bet you didn't expect to be the hero that you are.

No, no, that Yeah, I mean, I just, I don't even think of myself as the, you know, it's such an incredible compliment, but I don't think of myself that way at all. You know, I just. Look, I'm a survivor and I'm a patient advocate and I'm just trying to help encourage people and get them on the right path and help them understand that the body can heal and. But it requires massive life change, right? You have to take control of your health and you have to start reading and researching and educate yourself. And there's a lot to do. But the nice thing is there's no prerequisite. You don't have to have a college degree, you don't have to even have a high school diploma, right, to learn how to help yourself. And it really is truly available to anyone.

But you do have to be fairly dedicated and brave.

You have to be dedicated and really, I call it the beat cancer mindset. But you have to be determined to live, right? You have to get really clear. For a cancer patient, you have to get really clear, do you want to live, yes or no? And what do you have to live for? And get real clear about that. And then the next logical step is, okay, if you want to live and you know why you need to live, then now you got to take full responsibility for your health and your choices and you have to be willing to change your whole life for the better. And you got to get busy, right? You got to get busy. You got to take massive action. And the cool thing is, is some of the most powerful things you can do for yourself, you can implement immediately. And that's by changing your diet and exercising. Like the two major, major, like big levers that you can pull are diet and exercise. And there's a lot more to do with your mindset, your attitude, with stress, with faith, with forgiveness, and probably get into all that stuff. That stuff takes time. But in the meantime, you can really get this big boost this healing momentum by changing your diet to a plant based diet, adopting mostly raw. That's what I did. Mostly raw, a hundred percent raw in the beginning, whole food, plant based diet. And you know, when I was diagnosed at 26 with colon cancer, you know, it was like major shock, obviously at any age, but it, it's, it's especially traumatic, I feel like for a young person, because you feel like, oh, I'm not, you know, I was like, I'm still feel like a kid, right?

Cancer's for old people, right?

Yeah, cancer's for old people.

Or at least it Used to be, Yeah.

I mean, right. There's the rare, like childhood leukemia case I would hear about, you know, as a kid, and that was kind of scary to hear about. But yeah, I mean, you think this is an old people get cancer, 20, 20 somethings don't get cancer. And especially colon cancer, which is definitely an old people cancer. But let me just say it's one of the fastest growing segments of cancer is young adult colon cancer.

Yeah.

Right. That segment is growing in terms of.

It has to be, it has to be diet. Right?

It's diet.

It's toxins in direct contact with the colon line.

Yes, it is diet. It's environmental pollution. And those pollutants are getting into our diet. They're getting in through agricultural spraying and they're getting in through food additives and, and then, you know, we're eating so much processed food and so much meat and dairy, and that's contributing to really, really a really unhealthy and lack of diversity. A microbiome that's not diverse enough and is loaded with pathogenic bacteria that are promoting inflammation that can lead to colon cancer.

And, and antibiotics. Looking at antibiotics are playing a huge role.

Antibiotics are playing a huge role. And here's the thing about antibiotics that people, I think a lot of people don't know. This is shocker number one. You ready? Preservatives in processed food are antibiotics. That's what they do. They're put in to kill bacteria. So the Twinkie stays on the shelf for 10 years. Right. That's what preservatives are. So I want your audience to just like, lock these two terms together. Preservative means antibiotic.

Yeah. That's what preservatives.it's not just in your food, it's in your toothpaste, it's in your skin cream that you're putting on your face, in your lotion that you're putting on your body, in your shampoo that you're putting in your hair, your conditioner that you're putting in your hair. It's in all of these things to prevent them from spoiling. When you're going to keep them. When. For a number of months in an open state.

Right. And so antibiotics are not, they're not just from the pharmacy.

Yeah.

They're used in all types of food and consumer products. Yeah. And they, they are wreaking havoc on your, your, your body, your microbiome, your gut bacteria. They're killing good bacteria. They're. No, they kill some bad bacteria too, but they're not Good. So, you know, kind of back to the story. I get this diagnosis. I was very typical cancer patient, as you were a typical doctor. Right. Very typical. I just didn't know anything about, you know, healing or holistic approaches to health. And I got this diagnosis, and I was told, look, we got to get you into surgery right away before it spreads and kills you. And patients are almost always rushed into treatment before they have any. Any real understanding of what's happening to them. Right. It's within days. We got to get you into surgery right away, or we got to start you on radiation, or we got to start you on chemo.

So that's very intentional, Right. I mean, I think that's because the physicians are afraid that you're going to go get a second opinion, that you're going to go somewhere else. Like that whole fear tactic is get them in before they have a chance to think.

Yeah. And part of it is the business. It's a business strategy, too. Right. Like, every patient is a. Is a source of revenue, and we got to make sure we don't lose it. You know, try not to lose a patient, because we don't want somebody else to make the money off this patient. So.

That's exactly right.

Get them scheduled. And so that was me, right? They said they wanted to have me in surgery within, like, you know, a few days, but I ended up postponing it because it was right before Christmas. And frankly, I was just like, I don't want to be in the hospital on Christmas. That's depressing. You know, like, I don't want to miss my family Christmas get togethers. So can we. Can I do it after Christmas? And they said, yeah. So I went in on December 30. They took out a third of my large intestine. That's the colonial where the tumor was obviously the right side of my colon. And when I woke up, they said, it's worse than we thought. We were hoping you would be stage one or two, and you are stage three C, which means the tumor had broken through the colon wall and that cancer had spread to lymph nodes, which were obviously inflamed and cancerous. And they took a bunch of lymph nodes out and just said, look, we. We got everything we could see, but you're going to need nine to 12 months of chemotherapy. So at that point, again, I was just like, okay, Right. I just.

Is it hard for you to relive that moment over and over again? Because I know people make you tell this story over and over. Again, is it.

It's not hard now because I've told it so many times, but, I mean, there are. There are definitely parts of my story that I could. That still can kind of, you know, get a little bit raw for me emotionally, and I might get to those in a minute. But. But this part of it, I mean, honestly, like the very beginning of the cancer diagnosis and the surgery part of my story, like, I was kind of just in shock, you know, it's like I was just kind of emotionally numb, you know, it was just like, I. I don't know. I just kind of shut down. And I think that happens to a lot of patients. Like, there's all this fear and urgency, and we got to get you right into treatment, and you're just kind of shrug your shoulders and you're just along for the ride, you know, you're just like, okay. You know, you just kind of reluctantly just. Everybody's telling me I have to do this. So I guess.

Well, and I think that that ends up being a big part of it, is what everyone's telling you, because it's. It's hard. Even if you have an inclination to step out and. And do something else or do something different, you're up against more than just the medical establishment. Right. Because I remember hearing you say that. Even your wife said, what, are you crazy? You're not going to do this.

Yeah, she. You know, she didn't understand. Well, and we're jumping ahead a little bit, but that's true. Like, I had very. And I'll get to those details. But the point is, I had. Yeah, I had very little support. Like, most of the people around me didn't understand at all when I eventually decided not to do chemotherapy. But before I made that decision, I'm in the hospital. I'm recovering from surgery. The very first meal they brought me was a sloppy joe, which is just gross. Like, that is a gross. Nobody wants a sloppy joe, you know, ever. It's never something that people are like, you know what I could really. I'd really love right now? I am just. I'm really in the mood for a sloppy joe.

I know it's going to get some meal that's ever requested by anyone ever.

Yeah. It's like sloppy joes. This is food for summer camp, the military, and prison.

Yeah. And on those days in summer camp, military and prison, everyone is like, oh, yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

And surprise today.

Yeah, surprise. Cancer patients, people that just had quadruple bypass. They're getting sloppy joes today at the hospital.

Yeah.

Sloppy joe day.

I actually think I shared this story with you, that there was a time when I was being recruited to one of the biggest hospital cancer programs in Philadelphia to become the first chief of integrative oncology in the nation, because there isn't an integrative oncology section at any hospital right now. At the time, I had said to the chief medical officer, well, what are we going to do about the cafeteria? And he said, what do you mean? I said, well, I can't have cancer patients waking up the following day to a breakfast of eggs and bacon and pancakes. He's like, well, we can't change the cafeteria. What do you mean? He said, well, part of our hospital grading system is how good the food tastes. If we make the food healthy, people don't like the taste of it. We get lower hospital scores, we get lower reimbursements.

Oh, Lord, you did tell me this. And it's just.

And I think, you know, like, let's leave that aside for a moment. We have a captive audience. Right. I mean, these people are in the hospital because they have cancer or heart disease or, you know, they've had some, like, medical catastrophe. This is a great opportunity for us to teach them what to do and how to eat and how to live. And he looked at me with this like, crazy look, and he said, well, but that would mean that they would have less procedures. That's not a goal of ours. And that was kind of like where our talks broke down because we are not aligned. Right. We do not have the same goals in mind.

Right. Yeah. And that's the big eye opener. You know, when. When you realize as many good people as there are in medicine, the medical system itself exists to generate as much money as possible. Right. And so all of the incentives in medicine are not to promote health and healing. They're to promote continued disease. Right.

And dependence on.

Dependence.

Yeah, right.

Disease management and dependence. So that you are a lifetime prescription drug user, so that you are a frequent office and hospital visitor as a patient.

Yeah.

And, yeah. So there was. The incentives are perverse, and it's. It's horrible because there's so many good people trapped in this terrible system that really isn't serving humanity and very well. You know, for emergency care, it's awesome. If I get a gunshot wound, take me to the hospital.

But for chronic disease, appendicitis, a broken bone. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Okay.

So they give you a sloppy joe.

Sloppy joe. It was. It was amazing. Best sloppy Joe of my life, you know? And, you know, the wheels are turning, right? I'm like, why are they serving this to people in the hospital? This is. This is horrible food, right? This is. I couldn't believe it. A few days later, I was told, today's the day you get to go home. And my surgeon came in, and we were just having a conversation, and I just happened to ask him, like, hey, is there any food I need to avoid? Because, you know, the wheels are turning. And I'm like, well, they cut out a third of my large intestine. Everything you eat is going through there, Right. And I don't know what they stitched it back together with, but I just want to make sure there isn't some, like, forbidden food that's gonna, like, melt the stitches. Right. Like hot sauce or something.

Right. So, you know, that's actually a reasonable. Like, if you did not understand how things were working, it's a reasonable assumption, right?

Yeah, yeah. You know, there's. You know, are there rules? Right. I mean, it's like when they. When. When you take. You know, there's, like, you take statins, you're not allowed to eat grapefruit. Right. Or something like that.

Yeah.

So anyway, his answer when I said, hey, is there any food I need to avoid? He was like, no, just don't lift anything heavier than a beer.

And I love. They use a beer as a reference. Yeah, but. Yeah, but listen, what's the message?

Right.

Speaking as a surgeon, I can tell you that they get no training around nutrition, so they have no idea what implication any of it has in a positive or a negative way. Right. Like, they no more understand how to nourish yourself than they understand the things that you intake that actually are damaging to your health.

That's right. Yeah. And, you know, one of the. So one of the many epiphanies I had along the way was just this idea, this fact that doctors are just as unhealthy as everybody else. They have drinking problems. Some of them still smoke, cigarettes. Many doctors are on multiple drugs, including psychiatric medication. Right. They're overweight, a lot of them. They're eating tons of processed food, junk food, meat and dairy, sugar, salt, oils, all the junk. Right. So they have the same rates of chronic disease, cancer, heart disease, diabetes as everybody else.

Mm.

So it's like, don't. Don't look for dietary advice from your doctor. Okay. Now, if your doctor's fit and, you know, really fit and active and looks healthy, you know, maybe they can give you some good advice. But generally speaking, you'll find that doctors themselves are not particularly healthier or Any healthier than anybody else.

Yeah.

So that's kind of a big eye opener there. It's like, oh, yeah, you know, like, I need to be getting health advice from, like, people that really are healthy and educated in health and wellness. But, you know, the wheels are turning and I'm just like, there's an obvious disconnect here between healthcare and actually healthy living. Right. Health food. I'm not seeing any health food in the healthcare industry. And do they really care about my health? I'm not so sure. So I go home and I'm recovering. I'm weaning myself off the pain meds. And as I sobered up, I just really started to think hard about my life and my future and like, what. What was to become of me? And I'd never had anybody really close to me go through cancer, but I had seen advanced cancer patients in. Out in the world in the wild, Right?

Yeah.

Chemo patients. And I mean, I'll never forget the first time I ever saw an advanced late stage cancer patient at church when I was a little kid. And I remember, like, tugging on my mom and being like, mom, what's wrong with him? You know, emaciated, bald, wearing the mask. I mean, just.

It's frightening.

Yellow skin. I mean, just so sickly.

Yellow or gray.

Yeah. And just. Yeah, it was so you just alarming to me. Like, I'd never seen a human being in that condition. So obviously that made an impression on me. And I'm thinking, this is me. This is my future. Right. I'm. That's what I'm to become. And so that's pretty. That's pretty scary. And so I had this internal resistance to chemotherapy. And the way I like to put it is like, I didn't. I couldn't make sense of, like, poisoning my way back to health. I. It's like I couldn't make sense of this idea, you know?

Right. Cause it's totally illogical.

Yeah. This proposal.

And yet isn't it amazing how many people accept it?

I mean, it is and it isn't. Because now, you know, now I know, you know, how much pressure, you know, is involved in cancer treatment. And people are. They're just boxed in and they feel like there's no, you know, there. It's like they strapped on the conveyor belt and they can't get off. And it's just like that. All the doctors, the family, the friend, everyone around them is like, no, you have to do this. This is it. Right? This is the only way. Even when they.

I also Think that there's a part of it that there's so much guilt and shame involved when people get a cancer diagnosis. I think especially with a breast cancer diagnosis, there's a ton of guilt and shame. And I think that somehow people think, first of all, they deserve to be punished. And that kind of treatment is part of the punishment. And the second part is that if it doesn't make you feel awful, it's not killing cancer. I think that people think that the only successful treatments are the ones that make you suffer. That's something that's supported by conventional medicine.

Yes. I love what you said, too, about the guilt and shame. Shame was a big problem for me when I was diagnosed. I was deeply ashamed. It was so humiliating because I was a very ambitious entrepreneur, young guy, just, like, really trying to make a name for myself in the world. I had a big ego, was prideful and. And also very insecure, right? Which pride and insecurity always go together. But, yeah, and then I get this cancer diagnosis. It's like, oh, now the. Everyone knows I'm flawed, right? That I'm weak and vulnerable, and I'm like, what. What guy gets colon cancer? Like, basically, let's just call it butt cancer. You know what I mean? Even though it's not anal, but you know what I'm saying? It's like. But what guy gets.

Like, it's the same thing.

Yeah, right? What guy gets that at 26? You know? So, yeah, that was. That was very painful. Very painful for me emotionally. And the other thing that you said that I want to touch on is I talk about this in my first book. It's called Crispy Cancer, if anybody wants to read it.

But everyone should read it.

Thank you.

Must read.

The cancer industry uses this militaristic language that you have to fight cancer. It's a battle. You're a warrior. Right? And they use that to convince people that they have to suffer. Right? Because if you convince a person they have to fight and they're going to battle and there's a war on cancer, right? And you're a warrior, then it's also easy to convince them or to get them to agree to the suffering. And my philosophy, which is not one that I came up with, is that cancer is not something you fight, it's something that you heal.

I actually had that quote written down because I wanted you to talk about that and talk about what you mean by that, because I agree with you. So many people see cancer, they're told that cancer is a fight, a fight that they have to take on. But you say cancer is not something that you fight, it's something that you heal. Please elaborate on that so people understand.

Well, cancer cells are your cells, Right. This is your body. You're going to fight yourself. That doesn't make sense.

Yeah.

And at the end of the day, cancer, like any other disease, the way to survive it is your body has to heal. You have to heal it, Right?

Yeah.

When you get sick, you need to heal. And so those two different philosophies, fighting it means, you know, basically cutting it out, these barbaric treatment, cutting it out, irradiating yourself, poisoning yourself to near death and hoping that you don't die. And then somehow when you recover your health after all that brutal treatment, that your body stops making cancer. So that's one way that doesn't work very well. And we know it doesn't work very well because in the last 60 years, over 60 years, the overall death rate from cancer in the United States has only come down about 5%. And this is the real, you know, it's sort of like what I like to say is the most important statistic in all of cancer domestic. Right. Is that by and large, the cancer industry, despite the billions, and maybe we may be approaching trillions of dollars spent on research and drug development, all this stuff, they've only reduced the overall death rate by 5% since the 1960s when chemo really started to become standard of care. So having said that, childhood leukemia, very high cure rate. Testicular cancer, very high cure rate. Lymphomas tend to respond very well. High 10 year survival. But it's the solid tumor cancers. Breast cancer, liver, colon, ovarian, cervical, lung. You know, there's a big long list of them. Pancreatic.

Yeah.

That they've made very little and in some cases zero progress in curing the disease. And so, you know, having said all of that, the holistic approach is one that says, look, and the healing approach is like, okay, there's a root cause to my disease. I need to educate myself and learn what are the root causes of cancer? What are the factors in my life that are contributing to cancer? And there's a number of them. Diet, lack of exercise, bad habits like cigarettes and alcohol, environmental pollution. Well, what we know is that up to 90% of cancers are caused by diet, lifestyle and environment. Diet, lifestyle and environment. Like so that's incredibly empowering. Although the cancer industry doesn't tell anybody this, it's commonly known in the cancer industry, but it's not part of the patient pitch and so eating a processed food diet, a western diet that's high in meat and dairy and processed food, sugar, salt, and oil, contributes to high rates of cancer. And when you're eating that way, you're naturally. Not eating. Naturally is the wrong word. But you're not eating fruits and vegetables, right. And nuts and seeds and legumes and herbs and spices. That.

That's eating those things at the expense of the things that your body actually needs to be healthy.

You're not eating an anti cancer diet. You're eating a pro cancer diet. The. So that's the diet part. The lifestyle part is we engage in a lot of lifestyle habits that do promote disease. Right? And so not exercising contributes to obesity. So does the diet. Obesity is the second leading cause of cancer. The number one cause of cancer is a lifestyle choice called smoking. So smoking and obesity, those are both diet and lifestyle are the two leading causes of cancer. So my personal opinion is there are very little to no real cancer victims. Right. Because if anything, you're a victim of your own choices. You're not a victim of bad luck or bad genes. You're a victim of your own choices over many years. A long time.

Yeah.

And taking personal responsibility for the. For your choices and for the ramifications of your choices is kind of hard. Like, that's a tough pill to swallow, but it's so important. And that's what I did. I just looked in the mirror and I'm like, okay, if maybe this is my fault, maybe this is my fault, and if it is, if I contributed to my disease, then that also means maybe I can contribute to my health, to my healing. And that was so empowering. I mean, that revelation that, like, I have some control over my future, Right. I'm. It's not just cancer. Wasn't just my fate. And so back to my story. I'm recovering. I'm trying to decide what to do. And I. My wife and I just prayed about it. And I was like, God, if there's another way besides chemotherapy, please show me. I don't know what to do, you know, help. And I got a book about raw food, about healing cancer with a raw food diet. It was written by George Malcolmus, who himself had healed colon cancer. And it had been. I don't. Something like 30 years prior, and he was still alive. And like that book, it just came to me at the perfect time, right? Because I asked for something, it showed up. I was like, this is an answer to prayer. I know it. And I was like, I'm doing it. I will do this. And it made sense to me. Like this idea of what George was putting out there was, was what we've already talked about really is that cancer is caused by our diet and lifestyle. And if you change your diet and your lifestyle, you can help your body heal. You can help yourself heal. And so I was like, well, I love this idea and let's see what happens. So overnight I converted to a raw food diet. And like I said earlier, there's some things you can change right away. It's your diet, you can change it at the next meal. Right.

I do want to ask you about that because I come across a lot of people who have the I can'ts and one of the big I can'ts is that I can't eat raw food. So what do you say to those people to encourage them to get over that mindset?

Yeah, my answer to that is yes, you can. You definitely can. It takes maybe a week, worst case two weeks, but usually about a week for your body to adapt. Right. And there is adaptation that happens because when you're used to eating cooked food, your body produces a different mix of enzymes. Yeah, right. To, to, to digest cooked food versus raw food. Your body produces a different, a very different looking microbiome when you eat only cooked food versus eating raw food. And so in the beginning, yeah, you might, it might be gassy or bloated or you might be like, oh, it's all the chewing. My jaw is getting sore from all the chewing of the broccoli or whatever. Right? Like, yeah, sure, right. But what I found is anyone that's just committed to do it and they, they eat a raw food diet within about a week, they've got it dialed in, they're feeling good. And, and what's crazy is, we know it's amazing, within two weeks you're of eating a plant based diet or a raw diet or both, your microbiome is virtually unrecognizable. Like you could see two different microbiome.

Samples, how fast it can change. Right?

Yeah. You wouldn't even know it was the same person.

Yeah.

You know, because all these wonderful beneficial bacteria begin to flourish in your gut.

Yeah.

And part of them are, are you're getting from the food. And one of the most powerful things about a raw food diet, raw fruits and vegetables. So let me just run through it. You're getting vitamins, minerals, enzymes, antioxidants, you're getting fiber, you're getting water. Because many people are chronically dehydrated, because, you know, fruits and vegetables Raw are water rich. You're getting thousands of phytonutrients, and these are anti cancer compounds, anti inflammatory compounds, all kinds of wonderful molecules in plant food that you were not ingesting before that are useful to your body. And you're getting bacteria, you're getting beneficial bacteria. And this is the one element of the raw food diet that I think people forget to talk about is all the trillions and trillions of good bacteria that you are getting from raw fruit. From, sorry, raw food food from an apple.

Yeah.

There's a hundred million bacteria in an apple. And so what's cool is bacteria compete and there's a good bacteria will, will attack and kill and crowd out bad bacteria. It's one of the beautiful things about creation and nature and our, our ecosystem and everything is like bad bacteria have a. And typically it's to break down dead things. You know what I mean? A dead animal. And so like when you eat meat, that meat is loaded with bad bacteria. As soon as an animal dies, bacteria are trying to break down that animal flesh. And that's why you're supposed to cook meat. Right. To kill this bad bacteria. Even when you cook it, though, the dead bacteria cause inflammation in your body. So you're not going to get an infection if the meat's fully cooked, but you do promote inflammation.

Tom describes it best when he says when you're eating corpse. Yeah.

Eating corpses. That's right, yeah.

And anyone who is a meat eater, the second you hear him describe it that way, you've like sworn off forever.

Yeah, that's great. It's great. So, and I, you know, I could go on a really long tangent and I'll try to keep it short, but, but basically, yeah, raw food is just so rich in nutrients.

Yeah. I do have two questions for you about raw food though.

Yeah.

First, if you are someone struggling, do you recommend that they take enzymes in the beginning to help break them down?

Totally cool. If somebody wants to take some digestive enzymes with their meals to maybe help with gas or bloating, you know, and occasionally somebody might get kind of cramping or you know what, painful gas or bloating. Sure, sure, no problem.

So that can be helpful. And the other question I wanted to ask you is about supertasters. Do you know what I'm talking about? Like the people that eat raw broccoli and it tastes disgusting to them. So can you just blanch it a little bit to get rid of what that, that horrible taste that supertasters have and still get the benefit?

Yes. Lightly Cooking lightly, steaming, you get, still get benefit. But one thing I should mention about cruciferous vegetables is they have this incredible compound called sulforaphane, which is a major anti cancer and antimicrobial. And sulforaphane is only produced when cruciferous vegetables, broccoli, cauliflower, kale, cabbage, brussels sprouts, are chewed up because there's an enzyme reaction that creates this compound when they're chewed or chopped. Okay. So it's really important if you're going to steam cruciferous vegetables, chop them up really good and then let it sit for about 20 minutes before you cook it. Because the chopping and the sitting will produce sulforaphane, this incredible molecule, anti cancer molecule. And then when you cook it, it's still there.

Yeah, yeah.

So steaming, steaming is best. If you're boiling, you know, you're going to, you're going to leach out a lot of potentially valuable nutrients into the water. So think about, that's what coffee is, right? You're boiling water through coffee grounds and leaching out the beneficial stuff. So the same thing happens when you, when you boil food. So, but what we typically do is like, we, you know, folks in our community, we, we get them on all raw diet. And that's, this is what I did, by the way. So I, I started this diet. I decided, okay, I'm going to start juicing. I'm gonna do what this guy did, this George Malkus guy. I'm gonna do what he did. I'm gonna juice 64 ounces of vegetable juice, mostly carrot juice every morning. I'm gonna drink it throughout the day. I'm gonna eat giant salads for lunch and dinner. And I don't mean a giant bowl of iceberg lettuce with like bacon bits and ranch and cherry tomatoes. Like, the giant salad is broccoli, cauliflower, kale, cabbage, onions, mushrooms, peppers, avocado, and then a bunch of sprouts like broccoli sprouts or garbanzo bean sprouts or mung bean sprouts, apple cider vinegar, olive oil, and then load it with anti cancer spices, garlic, cayenne pepper, oregano, Italian seasoning, which is oregano and other stuff, curry powder or turmeric. And it made the most delicious salad I've ever had in my life. I just decided, like, I'm just going to put every, just make this concoction and see how it turns out. And it was so good. I was like, okay, I can't conceive of a more nutrient dense meal than this. So I'm just going to eat this every day and maybe I could eat it every day for lunch and dinner. The giant cancer fighting salad. And there's a picture of it on, on my cookbook right on the COVID It's gorgeous. On Beat Cancer Kitchen, my friend Justin arranged it and, and it's never looked better than it does on the COVID of the cookbook. Like, he just, it, mine never looked that good. He just arranged it beautifully. But, but it is so nutrient dense. It has. You just got all the bases covered in terms of anti cancer nutrition. And what's cool is I learned later that they did a study where they juiced a bunch of vegetables and dripped the extracts on cancer cells. And I talk about this in my book. And what these researchers found was that the most potent anti cancer vegetables, just the juice of these vegetables directly on cancer cells. The number one was garlic. Number two was onions. Number three is leeks. Well, guess what? All those are all cousins.

Yeah.

Garlic, onions and leeks. Allium family.

Yep.

And then most of the top 10 were the cruciferous vegetables. Broccoli, cauliflower, kale, cabbage, Brussels sprouts. And so that's exactly what I was eating. Right. I didn't know about this study until years later. It actually came out right around that time, but I didn't learn about it until many years later. And it was so cool to see that validation. Right. Of like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. Like, these are the most potent anti cancer vegetables.

Yeah.

And so, so that was the nutrition part for me. I created this simple routine and I just repeated it every day. Right. There was. It was beautifully simple. I knew exactly what to buy at the grocery store. I ate everything I bought. There was no waste if you're eco conscious. There was no like plastic or cardboard or packaging. Because it's all produce.

Yeah, it's all produce.

Right. So that, you know, that's nice. And I didn't have to do any meal planning. Right. And it's fast food. Salad is fast food. Literally, I just pull all the ingredients out and, you know, tear them into chunks and throw them in the bowl and put the spices on and eat it. So there's no cooking.

Yeah.

The only thing that took time was just running the juicer every morning and making my juice.

But I, for the day, the same way that you talked about chopping off your cruciferous to activate the sulforaphane, you do need to activate the enzymes in garlic and onions and leeks, because in the allium group, it's the same thing. So you definitely want to give them a chop 10 minutes in advance of consuming them or doing whatever you're going to do with them.

Thank you. Yes, absolutely. So after creating that routine, I found a holistic naturopathic doctor. And then he connected me with an integrative oncologist who. Who had come out of retirement because he didn't like being retired. And he had spent an entire career as a conventional oncologist, surgical oncologist, and he also administered chemotherapy treatments. And then when he came back out of retirement, he's just like. I started researching and trying to learn more. And so he was doing IV vitamin C out of his. Out of his office and was traveling to China studying Eastern medicine. He was in the 70s, and he's now deceased.

Never too late to learn, right?

And, I mean, he was. He was a godsend because he was the only guy in town that I knew of that would, you know, that was willing to work with me, that monitored my blood every month, that ordered the CT scans every six months, and it was doing IV vitamin C, and it wasn't trying to pressure me into doing chemo. So I had a very little, tiny support system. Right. My mom was a supporter in the beginning, and then I had these two practitioners. And like you said earlier. Yeah. My wife and a lot of other family members, they just didn't know. They didn't understand, and they. They thought I'd lost my mind. They thought I was gonna die.

They were scared. They were scared, right? They were afraid of losing you and afraid of not following convention.

Right? They were. They were scared, and they love me. Right. But it's hard because it creates a lot of friction, right. And a lot of stress and anxiety when you feel really strongly like the path you need to take to survive, which I did. And everyone else around you is saying, no, don't. No, that's wrong. You can't do that. That won't work. That won't help you. I mean, that creates a lot of stress. And I had become. I mean, I was so fired up. I was excited about changing my life. I was loving it. Like, I was loving the raw food diet and juicing. I was feeling so good. And I was, you know, becoming a little mini evangelist, and I was trying to get my wife on board, you know, in the early days of doing it. And I was, you know, reading all this stuff, and I was, like, telling her everything I was reading. And she was becoming resentful. You know, she didn't want to hear it because she really Thought I was going to die, and she just thought she was going to watch me die. And at one point, she said to me, she said, I don't like who you're becoming. That was really hard. It was really hard to hear. And then, of course, my response was like, you know, you got to understand, like, I'm doing everything I'm doing in order to. To save my life. That's why I'm doing all this stuff. But it also just taught me that I needed. The big lesson was like, you know what? I don't need to worry about converting her. I need to focus on me. I need to take care of myself. I don't need to try to evangelize anybody else right now.

That's really interesting that you say that, because I feel like many people dealing with a cancer diagnosis are fighting on all fronts, right? Like, they're fighting on the conventional medical front because they're being told to follow, you know, the standard of care, whether or not it applies to them or will help them. You know, that's what's being recommended. And then they're fighting on the home front because you may feel differently than your partner, spouse, sister, brother, parent, child feels, right? And so you're kind of. You're fighting on both front. And to have that realization that you. You just need to do what you believe and you don't have to convert other people, right? That. That. That was a tremendous realization for you. And I feel like so many people are struggling with that.

Yeah. You know, I understand. Because when you're in the. When you're taking a holistic path, right? When you. When you've stepped off the road, right into the jungle, as I did, and you're hacking your way through it alone, like you're desperate for some support and some validation. And so, you know, you're trying to convince other people to, you know, To. To get. To get them to sort of believe you. So then you feel supported, right? That's what it's about. But at the end of the day, that's a. That adds a lot of stress and anxiety and rarely works. And so my challenge is to people in our community and yours, too. It's like, look, if you believe it, just do it, right? Don't worry about if other people understand. They won't. Okay. Yeah, but time changes things, right? Time changes things. And as you get better, people will notice, right? They'll notice that you're not dead for sure, still alive. And he looks really good, you know.

And so that's the best proof, right? Living well, that's the best proof.

It's hard to argue with results.

Yeah.

And so do not dismay. Right. Because it can be stressful. Like, oh, I'm learning all this stuff that's so important and, and nobody else knows it. I didn't. I mean, they need to know. Like, I get that, but let that go for now. That. That season is not now. That's for another season. Right now is the healing season for you and nobody else. And then as you get better, people will come into your life that want to know, and you'll have an opportunity to share what you've learned and really be helpful to them. And so I. I did learn that lesson, and it helped me a lot. And it's. Again, it's still hard to go at. Go through it alone. There's an incredible network of support groups called Healing Strong. Healingstrong.org and it's a global now, but there's 150 cities that have holistic cancer support groups. Go to healingstrong.org you can find them in your city. You can even start a support group if you want to. And. And people will come to you and you can connect with them because you need to be around people who understand you that are doing what you're doing or they've done what you've done already. They can guide you, they can encourage you. And so Healing Strong has been going for 10 years now, and they're just incredible. I'm actually speaking at their conference in. At the end of September in Houston. For anybody that's interested, you can find out about that at their website, healingstrong.org.

We can put that in the notes as well.

Cool. Yeah. But so the support thing's huge. Right. And getting really clear about just understanding that, like, look, if you have to do it alone, do it alone. Right. Your life and your health are the most important thing. And if you want to be around to take care of your loved ones, you better get your health back.

Yeah.

And so, you know, fast forward. I created this simple healing routine. I worked with an integrative doctor and a naturopath. I took tons of herbs and supplements. On top of the nutrition, I was exercising every day. I started working on my attitude, my mindset, catching myself being negative, negative, choosing to think positively, giving my fear to God and just trusting God with my fear. Because the fear is creeping in every day, right? Every day is trying to creep in. When you wake up, you think about it. It's the first thing you think about when you go to bed is the Last thing you think about. And the best times of your day when you have cancer are the times of your day where you're busy and you forget you have cancer.

Yeah.

Like, those are the best times. And. But there's. But you're constantly reminded, you know, it's like. It's just. It's sort of just a joke. But you're. You know, you don't even think about cancer until you have it. And then every time, everywhere you look, there's like, something about cancer, cancer, cancer, cancer. Right. The first movie I went to see after my diagnosis, I don't know if this is even in the book. I can't remember, but the very first movie, I'm like, let's just go see a movie and check out for a couple hours and, you know, like, escape my scary reality. And it was a movie called the Butterfly Effect, and one of the characters gets cancer and dies. It's like, oh, my gosh.

I don't remember if that's in your book or if you told me that, but I have. I have heard that before.

Yes. So that's. It's really tough. And so I just continually just say when the fear would creep in, I would just catch it right in that moment. I just say, God, I trust you. I'm giving you my fear. Not going to be afraid. I'm not going to let this fear of the unknown and this fear of the. The future steal my joy today. Right. I'm just not going to be crippled by fear and anxiety and worry. I'm going to savor today. Right. Like, now I'm going to savor this moment and today. And so, you know, I woke up one day and it had been five years, and I had another scan and it was clean. And I'm like, wow. And I didn't want to talk about cancer ever again. Like, seriously, I was so over it. I didn't want to talk about it. I just want to move on with my life, you know, And I was playing music, and I was in real estate, and I had a baby girl, and, like, God had other plans.

Have you. Have you been able to exhale? Like, do you see that as a time and a person that you were and that you're something else now?

Yeah, I definitely am. You know, you mentioned this earlier, but cancer, I don't. I wouldn't call cancer a blessing, but some people do. But what I would say is that many blessings, big blessings in your life come disguised as adversity. And there's a. There's a verse In Romans, Romans 8:28, says, God works all things for the good of those who love him. Right. And it's. That is such an encouraging verse because it's a promise that it doesn't mean you won't have bad things. It means God works the bad things for your good. And so I chose to believe that. And I can tell you he did. He worked that bad thing for my good. I am so blessed as a result of cancer. Like, my life took a completely different turn. And, you know, obstacles come into your life, and when they do, I mean, they're either there to be overcome, or they're there to divert you onto a new path. And so I think it helps to. You know, it's easy to get really myopic and. And focused on, like, all the problems that we have and feel overwhelmed by them. But if you step back and. And just entertain the idea that, you know what, maybe something really good is going to come out of this bad thing that just happened to me, whether. Whether it's cancer or losing a job or whatever. Right.

Yeah.

Like, and start to believe. And even the next step beyond that, step one is, like, considering the possibility that something good could come out of it. Step two is believing something good is going to come out of this.

Yeah.

That's where I am now. Like, anytime I have, you know, everybody's got problems in life. Right. Anytime there's little problems or whatever, I'm like, you know what? I don't like this. But something good is going to come out of this. So I'm. I'm at peace about it. Right.

And I. I know that you're someone that is deeply connected to God. And as you were saying, I mean, I think people really struggle with that concept of bad things happening to good people. But I think what you're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that we're not supposed to see these as things that are absolute bad or absolute good, but an indication that we should be doing something differently.

Yeah. Well. And, you know, I would just say life is full of challenges. Right. And whether you assign good or bad to a challenge is a choice.

Yeah.

And so I think in many cases, we assign the word bad to challenges in our life that aren't necessarily bad. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And I'm not saying everything that happens isn't bad. I mean, some real bad stuff out there. I just watched the Dot. The. Just watch that docu series about Jared Fogle, the subway guy. Oh, that was one bad dude. Evil. Right? Evil guy. And, like, what he did was bad, period. But a lot of other things that happen to us, events in our life again that we perceive as bad may not be. They may be the best thing that ever happened to you. And a year down the road you look back like, I am so glad I got fired because this other amazing job opportunity happened, right.

Or whatever there to make space for something that's really great.

I'm so glad I got dumped because then I met the greatest person in the world who I'm married to, you know, that kind of thing. So it's like, it's good to have that, to step back and try to look at the big picture of your life and not get bogged down in circumstances that, you know, you perceive as bad or as. Yeah, as bad. So, so that was a big lesson for me, right. I had to learn how to do that. And I still practice that today. And I still practice gratitude. Just saying thank you God for everything. Like I, I realized that was the secret to happiness because in the most difficult season of my life, as when I was feeling discouraged, right? When I was feeling sorry for myself and envious and jealous of people that didn't have cancer.

Yeah. That had their health, that normal 20 somethings with healthy bodies, right.

I had a major insecurity and envy problem already. I was very competitive and I was just constantly comparing myself to others and, and then all of a sudden now I'm comparing myself to anybody that isn't sick and, and feeling like bitterness and resentment towards just like all these stupid happy people, you know, healthy people walking around like, you know, like they don't know how bad it sucks to be me, you know, that kind of, those kind of thoughts. But I realized like I couldn't continue down that, you know, that pattern of thought and behavior and, and, and I just started just stopping and saying in the, in those really difficult moments of self pity, I would just stop and go, okay, let me just count my blessings. Let me just stop what's good in my life. Right. Right now I'm thinking about what's bad. Let me just stop what's good. I've got a wife who loves me. I've got a baby on the way. I've got a house. I have enough food in the fridge to make my juices and my salads. I have enough money in the bank to pay my next set of bills. My parents are here for me and support me. I've got a pretty great dog, you know, and on and on and on.

Right?

I can see and hear there's a.

Lot to be grateful for when you're, when you're looking for gratitude.

Yeah, when you're looking for it. And then all of a sudden as you just start counting all the blessings. Count your blessings is, you know, an old adage. Your attitude just shifts. It shifts out of negativity into positivity where you just become full of gratitude and hopeful and encouraged. And so I still, still do that. I mean, this is a lot of people now talk about gratitude practice. It's become a pretty popular thing to, to talk about and. But it's never been more powerful or useful to me than when I was, when I had cancer. And so my gratitude hack is this. It's like anytime you're feeling down or discouraged or frustrated or angry or whatever, like anytime you're in a state, you're just stuck in that moment, just stop and say, you know what? Right now there's someone dying in the hospital that would give anything to trade places with you. Right? They would love to have your problems. Right? There are people dying right now that would love to trade places with you. And like, all I have to do is remind myself of that, just that little quick gratitude hack, that little exercise, and I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm good, right? I'm good. This is fine, right? Yeah, this is a minor problem, right? I don't need to blow it out of proportion. And even when I had cancer, I'm like, yeah, but I'm not dying in the hospital today, so.

Not today, not today, not today.

So, yeah, that's, I guess, to put a button on, on the story. It's like I just kept having this nagging feeling that I needed to share my story because I just knew there were people out there that I felt like I could at least encourage, you know, give some hope to. And so in 2010, which was six and a half years after my diagnosis, I. I wrote my first blog post on chrisbeatcancer.com and yeah, little did I know there was. There's just a lot of people out there, like doing Google searches, looking for, for help and, and answers and trying to learn about nutrition and natural therapies for cancer. And as I started writing articles and sharing what I did and making little YouTube videos and stuff, people just found me, you know, and, and my audience just grew. So now it's 13 years. Just had the 13 year blog anniversary last week.

Wow.

Yeah. 13 years. Three books.

Congratulations.

Coaching program. Yeah, it's, you know, it is my full time. It's hard to call it a profession. It doesn't feel like a profession. It just feels like my passion, you know, just like my full time passion to be a patient advocate and, and a survivor and an encourager. Right. That's, that's really how I see myself.

So I'm sure you've thought deeply about this and your perspective today might have been different than 10 years ago or 13 years ago. But why do you think you got cancer?

Oh, yeah, well, I can't pinpoint it to one thing, but I talk about this in the book a lot. I mean, there's a lot of known cancer causers in the world, right? And a lot of those cancer causing factors were certainly present in my life, right. I was eating the western diet. I was very stressed. I had a lot of negative emotions and bad attitudes and I wasn't exercising, I wasn't taking care of myself. I was doing all the things that weaken your immune system, right? I was doing all these things that weaken your immune system and promote cancer. And cancer got me early. And so I've connected all those dots, but I can't pinpoint to one thing, one event, and usually most people can't. Right. What I like to say is that cancer is the convergence of numerous health destroying or health eroding factors in your life over time. Right? It's this, it happens over time. Most cancers supposedly take, you know, a decade to develop and become big enough to be a problem in the body or, you know, whatever. And so, yeah, you know, who knows how long my tumor had been growing. Maybe 10 years, maybe since I was 16 or 18 or whatever. But yeah, you know, the cool thing is once you understand the causes of cancer, and this is the big thing that I try to help people do, once you investigate and learn and educate yourself and you, you identify the known obvious cancer causers in your life, then you can take steps to remove them, right? And you can replace them with things that promote health and healing that are anti cancer. That's nutrition, that's exercise, that's quitting the bad habits like smoking and drinking, that's reducing your stress, spending time in nature, sunshine, grounding, forgiveness. I mean, forgiveness is so powerful. And I talk about it. I mean, we're kind of out of time today, but I talk about it a lot in two of my books about how powerful forgiveness is. And if I can just leave your audience with one thing, I made a decision to forgive every single person who had ever hurt me by name. You can't do it in one sitting, right? But just prayerfully working through and thinking about the people who'd hurt me. And I made a decision one by one just to give them to God and say, God, I forgive them. They're all yours.

And all of that means. Yeah. You're not saying that what they did was okay. All that means is you're freeing yourself from, from the pain and not allowing them to continue to hurt you.

Yes. And I'm releasing my need for justice and vengeance and, you know, whatever. Like, I'm just releasing it to God and just saying, you can have them, you can handle it. I, I am not going to carry the anger and the bitterness and the resentment anymore. Like, I'm just letting it go. And I'm asking you to bless them on top of that because Jesus said, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Right. So I'm like, okay, that seems like it's probably good advice. I'm going to do that. And that frees you up. It just releases you from pain. And when you're, when you're holding on to anger and so many cancer patients have bitterness and resentment and anger issues when you're holding onto those painful, toxic emotions, they suppress your immunity. I mean this is, this isn't esoteric. I mean it's real. Your immune system is suppressed when you're in a state of stress.

Yeah.

So yeah. I want to encourage your audience to forgive every person who's ever hurt you until there's no one left. Right. Until there's no one left to forgive.

That's great advice. So I do. I, I know that we're almost out of time, but I want to end by. I think you would agree that if someone asked you if cancer could be reversed, I think you would agree that, yes, in fact it can. And then that usually the follow up question there is using your methods of, you know, changing the way you nourish yourself, changing the way you move, changing your environment. The question is, where is the science? Right. That's what I get all the time. Where is the science?

Right?

So, and I know that you talk about this disease of dogma, so can you kind of talk about where the science is? Because the science is there.

Yeah. Boy, that's a big question to try to answer. But let me try the. The problem is there are hundreds of thousands of studies, published studies on nutritional science, on the anti cancer compounds in food. And it's all plant food, by the way, predominantly compounds that cause cancer, cell death, apoptosis, compounds that prevent tumors from growing, compounds that prevent tumors from forming new blood vessels that are anti. Anti angiogenic compounds, compounds that strengthen your natural killer cells and your immune cells and make them better at identifying and eliminating cancer cells. And so there's more research that you could, than you could ever read. There are that many studies now. I summarize a lot. You know, a number of really cool ones in my book.

Yeah.

In Crispy Cancer.

But again, everyone needs to read Crispy Cancer. It's like a must read.

So you don't have to take my word for it. The science exists. If you want to read my book, you'll, you'll learn some of it. And it's all cited and referenced and all that. So here's what we've got. We've got all this incredible science showing how nutrition fights cancer, helps your body heal cancer, prevent cancer, not to mention all these epidemiological studies on other countries around the world that have lower rates of cancer. And when you look at how those people are living, they're very different than the United States. Right. They're eating more whole food, plant based diets. They're getting more fresh air and sunshine and exercise. They have better social and community support, you know, support systems. They're not exposed to all the agricultural chemicals and pesticides and they're not eating junk food and processed food. Like so, like you look at all the clues, right? There's all these clues and they're all pointing the same way. So that's the short answer of like the science is there. Okay. Why is it absent from medicine? Is the real question, right? Why is it not in medicine? And that's because diet and lifestyle medicine, right? Nutrition, exercise, stress reduction, faith forgiveness, detoxification, like there's no money in any of those practices. And so our medical system is oriented towards therapies that generate maximum revenue. So that's patented pharmaceutical drugs, that's complicated and complex surgical procedures, radiation, things like that. And so we talked about this at the beginning. So they're coming full circle here. But like there's just a perverse incentive in, in medical education and medical practice to only focus on the treatments that make the most money. And there's no incentive like your hospital story. There's no incentive to change people's diets or help them actually heal or live healthy lives because then you lose customers. My favorite, it reminds me of one of my favorite quotes, which I don't know who said it originally, but I heard it from Bob Beck, which is a patient cured is a customer lost. Yeah, right.

Yeah. So I think Mark Hyman said pharmaceutical companies don't create Cures, they create customers. It's the same thing.

That's what it is. And so understanding, once you sort of get a, you know, a basic understanding of the way the medical system works. And by the way, there's three chapters in my first book about the cancer industry, the medical industry and pharmaceutical industry and all the, all of the fraud, all the perils and pitfalls, all the problems, I mean, not all, but you know, many of them that you need to know about so that you would have a healthy amount of skepticism towards a lot of claims that are made in doctors offices, cancers clinics and things like that and by drug companies. Once you understand that, then you just kind of start to see the big picture, which is like, okay, it makes sense, right? The medical industry in the United States anyway is not interested in nutrition or natural non toxic therapies. They're interested in patentable drugs that can, that will make billions of dollars. Okay, there's no billion dollar broccoli. Okay?

There isn't.

There just isn't. And so the other part of your question was, can, can cancer be healed? Well, can humans climb Mount Everest?

Well, everything's impossible until someone does it, right?

Yeah. Well, we know that humans. One guy did it, Sir Edmund Hillary. Right. And then, then it was possible. And since then, I don't know what the number is, but countless humans have ascended Mount Everest. Is it dangerous? Yeah. Can you die? Yes. If you try to do it with no expertise, no help, no training, no preparation, you probably will die. And healing cancer is the same way. Like there are so many people who've done it against the odds. I interviewed a woman today who healed peritoneal cancer, which is super rare. Doctors told her there's no cure. They wanted her to do chemo anyway and said if you do chemo, you might live up to two years. If you don't do chemo, you'll die within six weeks to six months. She said no to chemotherapy. And this was after a hysterectomy, by the way. Said no to chemotherapy, went raw food diet, plant based, did all the same things we're talking about. Okay, it's been seven years. She's alive and well, no cancer. She healed and against the odds. And so I've interviewed, I've lost count. I should probably try to keep a running count. But I'm constantly interviewing people who have healed advanced cancers, all types and stages. But I really gravitate towards the advanced cancer survivors with a holistic approach, the kind that I am encouraging people to adopt. And you're encouraging People to adopt. And so, yeah, the question is like, how many people need to do it before you believe it's possible? Right. I mean, so that to me is sort of like, it's almost like an illogical argument, you know, that it's like people have done it, they've climbed Mount Everest, they've broken the four minute mile, they've healed cancer. Like it can be done. That doesn't mean it's easy, doesn't mean everybody will. And really there are a lot of people that are not willing to do what it takes, right?

Yeah, because it is. Healing is hard.

Healing is hard. It is hard. And let me just say this is the most controversial thing I'll say in our interview. Healing is hard. Chemo is easy.

I couldn't agree more. And it also, I did have a patient say this to me in that, you know, if you do what you suggest, right, get busy, take massive action, change your diet, exercise, take personal responsibility, then whether or not your disease is reversed is on you. And she said, it's so much easier for me to believe that the doctor failed or the drug failed than I failed. People often don't even enter into the process because they're afraid of failing. And it's so much easier to take the drug, take the pill, do the procedure, get radiation, get, have a surgery and then you're absolved of the responsibility because it's on them.

That is so profound. Absolutely right. It's absolutely right. And I had that fear, right? I had that fear of failure for sure, because I knew I wasn't, I didn't have my head in the sand. I knew if I don't get well, I'm going to die a fool, right? That those are the stakes. Like it was live or die. And if I die, I was not going to be the brave, courageous fighter that everybody is, you know, saying, oh, he really fought so hard with the chemo, right? I'm like, I'm going to be the guy, the cautionary tale that like, oh, don't do what Chris Work did, like all that quacks stuff because he died. And you know, like my ego didn't like that prospect, right? Of my.

It's a lot of responsibility.

It's a lot of responsibility. But I, but I did decide, you know, I, as I was just considering all these things, I just decided, you know what? I'm going to live or die on my terms.

Yeah, right.

I'm going to live or die on my terms.

I think we should close with a quote from your book and we we alluded to it a little bit in the beginning that cancer is not just in you, it is you. And if you are to heal, you have to heal you. Because cancer is not some separate entity.

Yeah, that's right. If you're willing to step back and look at your whole person, right? Not just what you're eating, but what you're thinking, how you're acting, how you're behaving, right? Like, I put it all on the table, all right? Every aspect of who I was, I was willing to scrutinize and change, right? So there's no room for, like, denial, Right. I had to be brutally honest with myself about who I was. And in. In that process, I realized, boy, I got a lot of room for improvement. So that's good, right? Because if you're under the delusion that you're just, like, Mr. Perfect, right? Like, that there's nothing you could possibly change in your life, which is like an extreme narcissist, right? Like, you're just a victim, but. And there's. There's. But you're a victim of everything out. Your circumstance and everyone else, but not of your own, you know, decisions. That's a dangerous place to be. But I was like, I'm just going to assume it's all my fault, right? I'm going to assume this is my fault and let me just figure out how I can change myself for the better and create what's called an inhospitable environment to cancer. Right. That's the entire goal of, like, what I'm teaching. What you're teaching is to change the internal terrain of your body from hospitable to cancer growth to inhospitable, a place where cancer can't thrive. And, you know, if we. If we want to kind of, you know, get a little bit philosophical about cancer or more philosophical now, we've touched on that kind of stuff. It's like. Yeah. Is cancer the manifestation of you secretly hating yourself? Right. Have you secretly hating life of a death wish? In some cases, yes. In all cases, no. But for me, yeah, I secretly hated myself. I was so insecure. I was just unhappy in a lot of ways, even though I was doing good things with my life and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, I was just a mess emotionally. And once I realized how much of a mess I was and I got out of denial, then I started making changes and I got better. And I'm still getting better.

Yeah. I do want to be clear that, you know, cancer does happen to people who are eating well, and who are exercising, Some of them are over exercising. And I, I tend to think of it more as a, a sign or a message that what you're doing is not working for you. And it's not, you don't have to, you don't have to take on the guilt or blame, but you just need to think about the fact that what you're doing is not working for you. It's not that you did something. I mean, sometimes people are not living their best lives and sometimes some people are constantly reliving a prior trauma or they're in a bad relationship or they live in a moldy environment. You know, it goes on and on and on. So it's not always about personal responsibility, but that, where the personal responsibility comes in is you now have the option to figure out what is driving your disease, figure out why what you're doing isn't working for you and recreate your environment and make it that anti inflammatory environment that fosters health instead of promoting disease.

Yeah. The revelation I had was the way you're living is killing you. Right. And the implication is, yeah, there's just a lot of factors in your life. Right. That are not promoting health. Right. They're promoting disease. So we, let's figure out what those are and change them without, you know, blaming yourself or, you know, any of those negative emotions or thoughts associated with that. It's like, it's not about making people feel guilty or ashamed. Right. It's about just empowering someone. Right. With the, with the knowledge that, hey, you know, there are factors that are contributing to cancer that you can, you can change. But you know, we could talk for hours. I love talking to you.

I know.

You know, one other thing that this, I just want to get out there is that I once heard a cancer patient say, I'm not going to let cancer change me. And I thought, oh man, that's heavy. You know, that is so heavy. You know, to, to the average bystander that sounds like, oh, you're, you're so tough. Right. Like, what a brave and tough thing to say. You're a real fighter. Get to this, you know, put on the pink boxing gloves, like you're not going to let cancer change you. But to me, the survivor and knowing what I know, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is horrible. This is the worst possible stance because cancer is going to change you, like it or not. And it has to change you.

If it doesn't change you.

Yes, it has to. It needs to. And if you, if you're fighting the change, the change that is going to come is going to be bad. It's not going to be good. If you're trying to resist the change. Like, yeah, what cancer. And I talk about this in my books, too. I mean, I'm just a broken record repeating everything I've. I've said previously. But my attitude was like, cancer has to change me. I'm changing everything. Right? Cancer changes everything. And I'm just going to go with the flow here and let it change me for the better.

Yeah, yeah. Which is. I mean, if someone says to me, I won't let cancer change me, that's someone that I know is not ready to work with me.

That's right.

Right. Because you have to. You have to let go and let God.

Yes.

Right?

Yes, yes. You have to take action. Faith without works is dead. That's from James. Like, works is action, right? So faith is belief. Works is action. If you believe you can accomplish something, get well. You got to take action.

Yeah.

Like, you got it. You know, you can't just sit there and do nothing. You have to get after it. One more thing. I'm jumping back to that thing that you said about the super. What do you. What'd you call them? Super.

Super tasters.

Tasters. I don't. I've never heard that expression, but I know it. Oh, yeah, that's funny. My answer to that. I mean, my. What I call the beat cancer mindset, right. That I talked about earlier is like, I was willing to do whatever it took to get well. Like, I would eat tree bark if I found evidence that it was anti cancer. You know what I'm saying? Like, I would drink my own urine if I thought it would help me heal cancer. Like, so it was like. And you're complaining about broccoli? Like, get over it.

Yeah, like, but that super taster thing is real. No one in my family can call broccoli that.

That's weird. That is weird. But I'll tell you, I've got to tell one more story. So Courtney Campbell is a dear friend of mine. She healed Hodgkin's lymphoma. It's been 10 years, had no treatment, healed it with whole foods, with overdosing on vegetables. And one thing she would do is every day she made this giant, like, green smoothie, right? Blended up broccoli, cauliflower, kale, like, all these veggies in a big smoothie. And it was basically like my giant salad, but just a blended up smoothie. And every day for two years, she Drank this concoction while holding her nose. Oh, the whole thing.

It was that detestable.

She could not. She had issues, right? She. She was a super taster or whatever. She had to hold her nose, and she did it anyway. Holding her nose every day for two years. Like, to me, I'm like, that's it. Like, that is what I'm talking about. That's the cancer mindset. That is a person who is determined to live. And they're like, no excuses. I'm getting this in my body. Right. I know it's going to help me. I'm getting it in my body, like, whatever it takes. So, like, and she has, like six kids now. It's just big, beautiful family, and it's just doing great. Courtney Campbell, I've interviewed her. But, you know, so that. That's kind of my answer to the. To the excuses of like, I can't eat this. Oh, it tastes bad. I'm like. And by the way, if you can't do broccoli, that's fine. Cauliflower, kale, cabbage. Like, there's so many other awesome vegetables.

What you're saying is like, figure out how to do it right? Make your choice. Do you want to live? What you opened up with, you have to decide that you want to live. And if you want to live, then all the things you talked about. Get busy. Take massive action. Change the way you eat, Change the way you move. Take personal responsibility. Eat a diet that nourishes. Change your lifestyle, your environment, and if you believe it, do it.

Yeah. There's no job. There's no relationship. There's no food aversion. There's no bad habit that's worth dying over.

Chris, this was amazing.

Thank you. I love talking to you. Like I said, I'm so glad you're doing what you're doing. You are so courageous, you know, because I know how hard it is to step outside the medical box.

Yeah, right.

Very hard.

My colleagues call me dangerous.

Nice. Right? Sound like. Sound like sweet people.

And. Yeah. And. And ask me where the data is for changing people's diets.

Yeah, right.

Can you imagine? Like, I'm dangerous because I tell people to eat broccoli and onions and garlic and Brussels sprouts and bok choy and cabbage. Like, I'm. I'm dangerous.

Yeah. Yeah. I. I've also been. I've been accused of that and much worse. So good to be on the same team.

Yeah. My friend Terry Walls tells me that it's a 15 year process where the first five years you're dangerous. From 5 to 10, everyone's curious. And from 10 to 15, you're the expert.

That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. Well, I'm in the 13. Thirteen years in.

So there you are.

You're the expert going public.

You're the expert. And though you may not feel this, there's no doubt in my mind that you were meant for the greatness that you have achieved. And that's what your diagnosis was about. And you would have never come to this greatness without your diagnosis.

Never, ever. That's right.

I'm so grateful to God to have given you that signal and for you to have heeded his message.

I am, too. Yeah, I am too. Thank you, Dr. Jen. You're awesome.

My pleasure is so great to see you.

Good to see you.

I will put everything that we talked about today in the show notes so that you can get all of his books, healingstrong.org, chris's course, and we will be sure to have him back on again. It's Dr. Jen. Bye for now. Thank you for joining me on this episode of the Keeping a breast podcast with Dr. Jen. I hope you found the discussion informative and empowering. Remember, breast health is health. So by staying informed and taking proactive steps, you have the power to optimize your well being. My team and I encourage you to apply the knowledge gained from today's episode to make positive changes in your life and share what you've learned with others. If you enjoyed this episode episode, please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a review. Your feedback and support mean the world to us and help us to reach more people who can benefit from these conversations. Stay connected with me on social media where I share additional resources, advice, updates and announcements related to breast health. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube. Rjensimmons and remember, my Jen has 2M. So until next time, remember to stay proactive, informed and confident in your breast health journey. The key to your health is you.