72: How to Stay Cancer-Free with Small Changes That Make a Big Difference with Dr. Amy Morris

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Hello and welcome. I'm Dr. Jen Simmons, a breast cancer surgeon turned integrative oncologist on a groundbreaking mission to transform the conversation around breast health. If you're seeking to redefine the way that you think about breast health, you're in the right place. Breast health isn't just an aspect of well being. It is health, integral and indispensable. Here on the Keeping Abreast podcast, we delve deep into the innovative ways to diagnose, treat, screen for, and prevent breast cancer. But it's more than that. It's about having the crucial conversations that empower, enlighten, and drive us all to a healthier place. As someone who has navigated the front lines of breast cancer treatment and now champions an integrative approach, I bring a unique perspective to these discussions, blending rigorous science with holistic health principles. Health is a journey, not a destination, and I am truly honored to accompany you on this path. Each episode aims to provide you with actionable insights and cutting edge strategies to take charge of your breast health and.

Your overall well being.

So whether you're here to learn about the latest in medical advancements or seeking tips on lifestyle changes that foster real health, then the Keeping Abreast podcast is your go to resource. Let's embark on this journey together, because when we talk health, every conversation matters. And now, stay tuned for this week's episode.

So you're plugging along in life and going about your day and your and your week and your month and your year, and you're doing all the things that you set out to do in life, and you're extremely successful as a professional, as a physician, as a caregiver, and you're a wife and a mother and an athlete, and you're doing all the things, and you think you're doing all the things right, and then out of nowhere, the bottom falls out and you get those words. You have cancer. And as a physician, I can tell you that there is no worse combination of words that you can give to anyone. And it stops everything on a dime. And you have to rethink everything that you knew to be true, thought to be true. And you contemplate things in a way that you never imagined you would never imagined that you had to. And yet there is something about it that permanently changes you and maybe for the better. And today, I am so honored to have Dr. Amy Morris with me because she can speak to this in a unique way that most people cannot. And she has brought such a bright light to the world through her own personal journey. And while it is not a blessing and it is certainly not anything that she asked for, I hope, I pray, that you can see it for the gift that it was, because what you have given to the world as a result of your own pain, your own experience, is so deeply meaningful that I know that. I have endless gratitude for you, for your story, for your contribution, and for what you have made of this situation. So, Dr. Morris, first, I welcome you to the show. I'm so delighted and honored to have you here. I, without question, have kind of a girl crush, and I think the information that you put out there so generously and lovingly is so deeply impactful, and I'm just. I have endless gratitude to you for it.

Thank you so much for that. It's been an absolute honor to be able to use what I've gone through to help so many other women after.

Me and so many other women you have certainly, surely helped. I would love it if you could tell your story in your own words, because I can never do it the justice that you will do it. Yeah.

So I think to really feel what happened with me, you have to go all the way back to 2016. And in 2016, I was truly, like, the healthiest I'd ever been. Like, I was working out. I was eating healthy. I'm a former. I'm Canadian, so I'm a former Team Canada athlete. And that year, I was on the top of my game. I was ranked second in the country.

And then for those of you who don't know. What Was your sport, Dr. Morris?

Oh, I was a weightlifter. I lifted weights. Yeah. So in terms of, like, we hear a lot of talk now for women, you know, advocating for strength training and building muscle mass while you can. Well, I was way ahead of that game. And I'm still reaping the benefits of the work that I put in during my career as an athlete. And that same year, I was also planning our wedding. So my husband and I got married in the fall of 2016, and it was perfect. Went on without a hitch. It was great. Immediately after, we went on our honeymoon to Italy and Greece. And we do what everyone should really do in Italy and Greece, and that's to eat your way through those countries. So we had, like, pizza and wine and cheese. And when I got home two weeks later, understandably, like, I gained a little bit of weight, but I was like, hey, look, I was just eating all this great food, so let me get back to my routine, and that weight will come off. And. And I noticed, like, After a few weeks, it didn't. And if anything, I was gaining more weight. And I also had this really persistent heartburn. I had heartburn all the time. I didn't matter what I ate. I had Tums in the drawer of my desk. I had just heartburn all the time. Wait, and it was really always.

Was this always or since your trip?

Okay, yeah, since the trip. Not even for my wedding, really just since the trip. So it was really the heartburn that I was like, ah, I'm just gonna go to my doc here. And it's probably something easy, you know, maybe I stress myself out with the wedding planning or something. And, you know, you can do a few tests. And that all came back clear. So she was like, hey, look, I'm just gonna send you for an ultrasound of your abdomen because, like, look, you know, women can get fibroids or cysts. Like, maybe there's something going on there, sends me for an ultrasound. And that's where I discovered I had a mass on my ovary the size of a football. So it was 21cm by 10cm. So it was literally the size of like American football.

Yeah. Just to give people, like some context for that, when you are 20 weeks pregnant, your uterus is about 20 centimeters. So think about a five month pregnant uterus. That's the size of the mass that was on your ovary.

That is. So people are like, that is mind blowing. Yeah. Because people say to me, like, how did you not know? Like, you must have. You must have been bloated or distended. And like, I really wasn't. You know, I have pictures from like before my surgery date even. And like, maybe I look like I just ate some Chinese food, you know, like, maybe I was like a little bit distended, but really there wasn't much to see there.

Even in retrospect, did you not. Did you not notice signs?

There was. Truthfully, it was just the heartburn.

So you were like most women who are completely blindsided by their diagnosis. Blindsided.

It's funny because I share, like, just this past week, I shared my main symptom of cancer. I share. My main symptom of cancer was heartburn. That's what it was. People get so mad. People get so infuriated that I share that because they're like, heartburn can be a sign of so many things, probably never going to be cancer. And. And like, yeah, you're right. You know, people get heartburn every day, but if you get new sudden onset persistent heartburn, that's not right. I'm not saying it's cancer, but I'm saying, like, something's changed. So, yeah, better just take a look.

We are so accustomed to, instead of asking the why, suppressing the symptoms. And quite frankly, in most situations and circumstances, if you go in complaining of heartburn, what happens? You could put on acid blockade.

Sure.

Right.

Easy peasy.

Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, kudos to your physician who asked the question why? Because most of the time that's not happening.

Yeah. You know what, I will say this because lots of people ask me that too. Like, people will say, well, your physician, she just like, you know, she just had a lucky swing on that one, essentially. And I'm like, maybe, maybe she did. But, you know, I wouldn't say she's like the most brilliant physician that ever lived, but she listens to you.

Hopefully she's not hearing this.

I think she'd probably agree. You know, I don't think she's like, like life altering brilliance, you know, I think she's like a very strong position, but she always listens to you and she's always willing. Like, if you're like, hey, what about this test? She's like, yep, let's do it. Like, okay. You know, she's not one to be like, it's all in your head, you know, because we hear that being thrown around a lot.

But that's a tremendous gift because most people are completely dismissive of what they don't know. Most physicians, most providers are afraid of saying, I don't know. And instead of saying I don't know, they reflect it back onto you.

Right.

It can't be me.

It's got to be you.

Yeah, that's so true. Yeah.

So I mean, it may not be her brilliance, but there was some divine intervention there for sure. And she does have a curiosity that is not commonly found in the medical profession.

I can say for me that when I was going through that diagnosis, I also had a deep, deep feeling that something wasn't right. And we do have, after working with many women with cancer, that is a common thread that comes up, is that they'll say things like, I had anxiety out of nowhere, and I've never had anxiety before. And now all of a sudden I'm so anxious. And then I was diagnosed with cancer, or I just knew that something wasn't right. And that was me. Like, my husband was very much like, look, just take this one step at a time, you know, don't worry about it. And I was like, no, no, I'm gonna go for my Ultrasound. And they said, oh, I can't get you until next week. Well, I'm calling every day to be like, got any cancellations? Because, like, something's not right here.

Yeah. That intuition that you're talking about that is so important, and I feel like that is something that is almost intentionally suppressed. Like. Like the medical profession doesn't necessarily want you to trust your intuition. They would far prefer that you kind of defer to them when. When they don't necessarily have your best interest at heart. And that intuition, I have at least found to be more reliable than anything else. And I say to women all of the time, do you think that this is a problem? Because if you think this is a problem, it's a problem.

Yes. Well, I totally agree. I take the same approach with my clients. I would say that that hasn't been my experience with my diagnosis and going through treatment. I have always. And perhaps I'm just a bit more picky on who I do work with as clinicians as well. But I am, you know, like, I'm not going to be a quote unquote good patient because I'm like, what do I have to lose? I have to lose my life. So I don't really give a shit if you find me irritating. I mean, that's okay. I don't really care because I've got too much, too much skin in the game here. Yeah. Now I will say I will never be, like, rude or anything like that because that's never going to get you anywhere but polite and persistent. Like, that's me to a T when it comes to advocating for my health.

And that is amazing. And I think so many people need to take this, that page out of your book that you need your questions answered.

Right.

And you have the right to be asking these questions. That is completely within your area of entitlement.

Yeah, well, I mean, like, think about the women even listening to this podcast. Like, they're not women that are, like, they're women that care about their health, you know, like, they're not women that are, like, going to McDonald's every night after work. Like, that's not happening here. So you're intelligent, you're well researched. So the questions you're asking aren't dumb questions. Like, these are valid questions.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so you go have an ultrasound and then what happens?

So look, I was, I was diagnosed when I was 30, and for a 30 year old to have cancer, that is going to be a bit more on the rare side. So. And we know that there are big Ugly tumors that can grow on ovaries and be completely benign. So there was a lot of hope, I think, amongst my team that this was going to be benign and it would be surgery and that would be it. Then the next. Well, I don't think it was the next day. It was probably two days later. I end up getting a CAT scan, so a CT scan. And I. The only way to get in for a CT scan was the only person that had availability. The only gynecologist that had availability was this old crusty guy that had a reputation of having terrible bedside manner. And so I was like, well, he's the only one I got, so let's go. So. So I went in to meet with him and he said to me, meet me tomorrow at 8am in the emergency room. You don't have an appointment for a CT scan, but I'm going to get you one that day. Okay? So I'm like, this is my kind of guy. I don't care how crusty you are. I was like, this is my kind of guy. Like, buckle up. So I met him in emergency. He gets me in for a CT scan, back into a room in emergency. I'm waiting to get the results. He comes in, sits down on the bed beside me and says, I'm sorry, you have cancer. And I could just see, like my husband and my mom were there with me and they were, of course, like, floored. They were stunned for me because I had already. I had art. I had already been working in cancer care. At that point. I like, I mean, you. You don't shut that off when you're diagnosed. So I start asking questions, like, was there fluid around my liver? Like, like, I'm starting asking questions. Try to stage myself or in your pelvis or. Right, right.

Yeah.

And so at that point, you know, we didn't have a ton to go off of. You can't, like, officially diagnose anything really, off of a CT scan. So the next step is really surgery. So there I got paired with a gyne oncologist who just happened to be one of the best in the country and lived in the city I lived in. And he ended up scheduling me in for surgery to remove that tumor. And then that's where I got my official diagnosis. Now I became stage three because there was spread in my abdominal cavity, which then of course, like, well, it was going to lead me to chemo either way.

Did they have any idea how long that period of time was that that tumor had been growing, man?

Like, what if I would kill to know the answer to that. Right. That just from, like, a science mind perspective. That is so interesting to me because we got. I was diagnosed around this time of year. I was diagnosed November 9th, and we got married September. September 24th. And my wedding dress was like a tight, fitted mermaid dress like that. It was not looking like I had a tumor in me. Okay.

Yeah, yeah, of course.

I mean, and we hear that a lot about people, you know, things getting missed on scans or like, they just had a scan the last year and there was nothing. And now they're diagnosed, like, some of these things, like, there's some triggering factor that causes, like, that exponential growth. But no, I don't. I don't think we'll ever truthfully know, like, what. How long it was there or when that growth really took off.

Yeah. So you have your surgery. What comes next? What happened next?

And how.

How did you deal with all of this in the context of your professional life?

So. Excuse me. My surgery was like, a massive surgery, right. Like, because of the size of the tumor. So I had, like, an incision all the way down my abdomen. It was 33 staples to put me all back together. And keep in mind, like, I was a competitive weightlifter before this. So for me, I was like, am I ever gonna lift weight? Skin? Like, it. Like, this whole, like, I'm ranked second in the country to.

That's a valid question.

So, yeah, of course, you know, you're happy about your life. And the surgery went well, you know, like, but what does my future look like here? And, I mean, the blessing I had was I had a very reflective surgeon who was also my oncologist, and I. He just said, like, look, I'm going to do this incision in a certain way. I think you're going to be able to get back there. So let's just see how this goes, essentially. And my recovery from that surgery was quite quick. Now, I will say that I had, like, an epidural to deal with the pain, because anything above the belly button, you're just like, that's going to be trickier. So I was probably five weeks in my recovery from that surgery, which is rather short. But if you think about all of the training and strength and muscle mass I had leading into that surgery, that really carried me through. So when I hear women.

I mean, when you start. When you start better, you finish better.

Oh, 100%. 100%. I hear of women getting diagnosed with cancer now, and, like, the first thing you need to be doing is going to the gym, like, because you probably got like four weeks maybe until like really you get any treatment, you got a lot of time, you could make a big impact in that time. So go to the gym, start putting on.

I agree with you.

So yeah, I hate.

Just change your diet, change your everything.

Absolutely. I hate to hear like people waiting until they hit rock bottom, you know, like, I'm gonna go through all this chemo, I'll just deal with this when I get to the end. Well, the end is going to be a lot darker than what you had expected if you had just started. Especially.

Yeah, especially because so many of these treatments actually compromise your health even further for sure. So unless, unless you go in good, you're going to come out with way bigger deficits than you even need to have.

Yeah. There's definitely going to be collateral damage from your treatment if you don't take action against that. Yeah. So for me, for me, like recovering from that surgery and then I started into chemo right before Christmas of that year. So I end up doing my cycles of chemo and then once I finished my chemo treatment, that was it for me. I wasn't like radiation wasn't going to be effective against my type of cancer. No long term treatment. I was cancer free. And so it was really just follow up and monitoring from that point on. But that really led me to a question I think a lot of women ask is like, how the heck am I going to stay cancer free? You know, like, how the heck am I going to make sure this doesn't happen to me again?

I mean, I think between that and why did this happen in the first place? These are the two questions that everyone is universally asking. Why did it happen and how do I prevent it from happening again? So I would love for you to talk about what did your health look like before your diagnosis and what does your health look like since your diagnosis? How are they different to you?

So I almost look at this in like three blocks. So before I was diagnosed, I was extremely active, high achiever. Like I'm the type of person, if you want something done, you ask me, you know, I'm like running circles around everyone else. There's no way you can match my productivity.

Like you're the can do person, you.

Know, and like so many women are like that, right? That they're like, ping, ping, ping, like no problem. Like, and they love it too. It was no burden to me. Like I loved it. Okay. I get bored. If you stay in the same spot for too long and become complacent. I just get so bored with it. So I'm just always doing something different. And that was me. So I was 30, like newly married, independent, like driven in my career. And then after I finished my cancer treatment, I was really like a shadow, I would say, of the person I was before. My main symptom was exhaustion. I was so tired. And it's a level of exhaustion that I think only cancer survivors really truly understand. And because, look, I've got two little kids now, like they keep me up at night, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. No, that's not, it's, no, it's not the same. The level of exhaustion that comes from cancer for me at least, was way worse. I was napping during the day. I was like, who is this person? I had also gained weight during my treatment. Of course I went perimenopausal during my treatment time and I put on about £20. And we all know that carrying around extra body weight increases your risk of cancer. This was very, weighed really heavy on my mind as well. Yeah, but nothing, I mean, like, look, I had always competed in a weight class sport, so you have to be a specific weight to compete against your competitors. And so I never, if I wanted to get into that weight class, no problem. After cancer, this was an entirely different ballgame. And I just felt like I was in the body of a little old lady. I felt like I was trapped inside the body of a 90 year old woman.

Yeah. And you know, we, we understand what's happening on a cellular level because chemotherapy is actually toxic to our mitochondria. And our mitochondria are the energy building units of the cell. So if they are not working, if they are malfunctioning, then you are going to feel an exhaustion that is so different than what you feel because you're chasing your kids around or an exhaustion that is so different because you had a hard week at work, because you, you are now burdened with these actual toxins that are limiting the capability of your mitochondria to actually produce the energy, the ATP that we need.

I think it's very, very different. I think a lot of, a lot of that exhaustion piece, it's so straightforward to correct. And that's, I think the biggest surprise among the clients I work with is that I say like, look, this was my number one symptom. But you really like, give me 21 days because that's how quickly that I can get you back to full energy. For me, going through treatment, I had always worked focused in cancer treatment, not recovery or remission. So After I went through treatment, I shifted my focus to recovery and remission, and that's where I was like, okay, well, no one's really. There's not many people supporting women and recovering from exhaustion and hot flashes and joint pain, so let me really use my skills there. And so for me, it actually doesn't exist. No, it doesn't exist. You're not offered any support post. Right. And so for me, it took far longer than 21 days. No. Well, during. I would say I had great support. During my treatment, I would say I was supported really. Well, maybe.

Maybe not in the way that could have protected. Like, I. I have heard you say that, and I. I don't remember if it was part of your experience or you're just responding to the women who seek your. Your help, but when you talk to your medical oncologist or to your oncology nurse, and you ask them, like, does what I eat matter? And they say, no, no, no. And do anything that you can do to not lose weight. When we know that most women during cancer treatment, and you are certainly an example of this, they gain weight during treatment.

Absolutely.

Can you talk about that a little bit and talk about why we should be more mindful of what we eat during treatment?

Well, I think, like, for me, I never came to my oncologist or my oncology team for support with my nutrition, because, look, like my oncologist, I really loved him as a colleague. He's retired now. I really liked him as an oncologist. Our son, his middle name is after him. Like, I really loved his genius, but his scope of genius is not food. That's ridiculous. Right? Like, he needs to know how to cut into your body and remove, too. Like, you also want him to. Like, he's not Superman, you know, like, so his scope of genius is not that. And so I never asked him for support in that area because I was like. He was like, hey. He would be like, hey, look, I don't, you know, like, I don't know, like. And so he was always really, like.

There are surgeons who know what to tell people to eat.

I don't.

I.

There's one sitting in this chair right now.

I think that's a lot of pressure to put on a clinician. I don't believe in someone being like a jack of all trades. I think you should find a team of experts to support you through. And so for me, I wanted to find the massage therapist, right? The physio. Like, those two things were not the same person. Right? Like, this is about building a Team. So for me, I was like, you're a great surgeon. Can you still please be a great surgeon and let me now go find a different expert that only focuses in this niche? So I think, like, in terms of nutrition, that's just a missed opportunity for a lot of cancer survivors. I think it's just a missed opportunity if you. Because people will come to me and say, like, what should I eat and what should I avoid? And I'll say, like, okay, well, we need to back up from that question even, because that is a very simplified feud of nutrition. So the things that are right for me are not the things that are right for you or the next person. Everyone needs something unique, but we also have to back up and look on a higher level how you're fueling your body. When we say, like, most women gain weight, some lose. Well, that's a problem in calorie balance. Okay. But it's also a problem in macronutrients. Then we have to talk about micronutrients, and then perhaps we'll talk about the specific foods that we want to include. But, like, you kind of jumped to step 14 and missed the first 13 steps.

Yeah, absolutely. Unless we forget, most of the treatments for cancer are things that incite inflammation. And our physiology changes when we have these inflammatory stimuli. And so we maybe have to be a little more careful and. And cognizant in that period of time that may change when you're not actively getting treated.

Oh, a hundred percent, yes. Your nutrition needs to look different during treatment than it does going into radiation, if that's something you're doing, or going into recovery and remission. Like, if you're having a different type of treatment, which is toxic, we know that to be true. It's going to kill cancer cells. It's also going to kill healthy cells. We know it to be toxic. So you need to support your body differently. And it's cyclical, too. With chemo, it's cyclical. Right. We go, like, every two weeks, every three weeks, every. Every week, maybe. Well, your nutrition needs to be cyclical with that, too. Right. Because what you're eating the day before needs to be different than what you're eating three days after. Yeah.

So we started to talk about your health before, your health during, and then how have things shifted for you since? What is different about you after your diagnosis that maybe wasn't true or wasn't the same before?

Well, I would say that now I'm the healthiest I've ever been in my life. That's true of Me now after cancer. And I think a lot of women when they're diagnosed, they just hope to get back to their old life or they hope that they are able to cope with this new normal, which is my least favorite term ever, because that's not, that's not good enough. Really?

Yeah.

Like to just get back to go to a new normal, which is just a term of complacency. Right. Just like accept where you're at and deal with it. That's not, that's not going to fly for me. And knowing that it's possible to be the healthiest you've ever been in your life now after this really like triggering event that could motivate you and change you to get there, well, that's what's possible. And that's the truth for me and it's the truth for a lot of women. So how, like it can be the truth for anyone. There's nothing innately special about me that allowed me to get to the healthiest spot I am now. It was really the right strategy and commitment. Right. And that's really what women need. So now where I'm at, I would say what shifted from before is now the reason and the why behind what I do is so much stronger. Like it's fun to be an athlete and it's fun to be competitive, but that's like a pretty, that's like a pretty low level reason. Right. That motivator is pretty like, you know, it's fun, you know, and you want to win, you're competitive. Right. But like being here for your kids and making sure that you're able to retire with your husband or travel the world or start the business you've always wanted to start it. Those are, those are far stronger whys now. So I would say my why behind being active and the way I live my life is just a lot more purpose driven now.

Yeah. Yeah. Which is important. And there's a season for everything. So.

Yeah.

It's not like you were living a meaningless existence before and a meaningful one now. Like there's a season for everything. And I'm not sure that, you know, most 20 somethings who you got married at 30 and got this diagnosis at 30.

Right.

I'm not sure most 20 somethings are living their most purpose filled life, but that's okay because we have a long time, God willing. God willing to live our purpose.

Yeah, very true.

Right.

And.

Though it doesn't feel like it at the time, certainly we all get called to our purpose in different ways. Some with more drama than others.

Yeah, yeah.

Right. Like I had a very dramatic call to my purpose. You had a very dramatic call to your purpose. There are times when I would say, like, I don't need this much drama. I get it.

Right. Like, I get it.

You can, you can just kindly ask and I, and I will answer. You know, I, I know that I was put on this earth to do great things. I get it. But it is what it is and we don't get to choose. But you have. I love the fact that you talk about having your best health now after your diagnosis and you really exemplify what is possible for people.

Yeah. And I just think you don't need to limit yourself. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. But I think mainstream thinks that that's not possible. And especially the way that medicine and health has been managed thus far.

It.

When you talk about symptom management and you never really talk about addressing why the symptom is there, you can't really achieve great health that way. If all you're doing is suppressing the symptom, then you're playing this kind of never ending game of whack a mole, Right. This comes up and you suppress it and then that pops up and you suppress it. And you know, at least in the breast cancer world, what we see is the same chronic inflammation that leads to breast cancer. If that's not acknowledged, if it's not remediated, then these women are going on to get heart disease or dementia or whatever else that manifestation of the inflammation is. And they may be living longer because we have all of these things that can suppress temporarily at least symptoms. They're for sure not living better. And the keys to living better are to kind of take those 18 steps back that you talked about and figure out like, how can I optimize my health? What can I do here? Where are the areas that I can intervene to make my health better?

And I think that there's just. Women just don't realize how much power they have, like to direct this themselves. And it's wild how much like you don't need anyone. Like you don't need approval from whatever, insert, whatever healthcare specialist. Like you really don't need anyone to say, like, here's the list, here's the thing to do. Because I just really, after my own diagnosis, I was like, look, I'm not going to live in a place of fear here because that's not healthy, that's not normal, that's not healthy. That's not how I have been historically in my life. I'm not an anxious or fearful person. Like, I do travel or, like, you know, whatever, go to the grocery store late at night. Like, I'm not doing crazy things, but I'm not scared of my surroundings. Okay.

Yeah.

And so I'm like, I'm not gonna live my life being scared. Like, should I eat this? Or, oh, my gosh. Like, that's not gonna work for me. So instead I was gonna flip it to what I have power over, what I have control over. Well, I have a tremendous amount of power in lowering my risk of recurrence. And so let me run in that direction to make sure I check all those boxes, do all those things, really live that fully, and then let the fear go.

Between you and I and the golf ring in this, it's okay. Tis the time, right?

Yeah.

So tell us about what you're doing now because you have really shifted gears from being a professional athlete to being someone who is making. Who is living with great purpose and making a huge contribution to this world of cancer. I mean, you really are giving back and paying it forward.

Yeah. So I think after I had recovered from my own treatment, I. I always have believed that I should place myself in the area that needs the most help. So it became pretty clear to me that I needed to make a shift. So I started focusing on helping women with recovery and remission. I shifted gears in terms of going purely, like, working in my own private practice. And that has been, like, the best decision I've ever made in terms of my own health. Like, setting limited hours, stronger boundaries, like, no, I don't go on call. Like. Like, that's just been a very smart decision for me personally. But that also allowed me the freedom to help women faster. So we know that with a lot of healthcare authorities or hospitals, you're held back by, like, red tape. Right. It's got to go through committees and all this stuff and for safety reasons or whatever, but working in my own private practice, I can start making changes today, me and my team. I always say to my team, you see something that's not working, we can fix it by next week. You don't like this operating system, we're going to change paths immediately. Okay. Because, like, you don't have to wait for permission from some higher up to tell us we're going to help women as quickly as they can, when they need it. So that's where we've really shifted gears. And now my focus is helping women with the symptoms. So to eliminate the symptoms of their cancer, cancer treatment, and to live their lives cancer free. For good. So those are our two main focuses.

So I know everyone's situation is different and that people have different needs and there are different things that will be the game changers for everyone. But there are some things that you think are universal and I've heard you talk about foods that everyone should be avoiding. I've heard you talk about things that everyone should be doing. So I would love it if you could give some practical overview for people who are in that place where they know they don't want their cancer to come back, but they don't know how to get that confidence that you have. They don't know how to tap into that power that you feel.

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Yeah, so let me start with like the least sexy of the two. Okay. I'll start with something that's like maybe not as sexy but has the biggest impact. And then let's move on to something that is a little bit more flashy. Okay, so the first thing, and we've already alluded to it here, is that we know you can lower your risk of cancer recurring recurrence by up to 59% through targeted exercise. So it is mind blowing to me, like 59. And we're not talking like lots of times when people cite cancer literature like this, they say 59. But then you look at the study and it's from like some, like, it was done in like 13 rats or something where it was like a petri dish study. No, no, no, no, no. This is from literally tens of studies, thousands of primarily breast cancer survivors. Okay, so this is like women that listen to this podcast. Like, this is you, you know, so you can drop your risk by more than half. And that's why I say, like, you don't have to ask your doctor for permission. Like targeted exercise. It's two pieces. The first is you've got to do low intensity cardio. So walking like, we had a good piece of literature that came out, I believe, January of this year, that show just in overall population, the more you walk, the less you die. The more steps you take, the less your risk of dying from any cause. From like any cause. Okay, so walk more. And if you're like, look, I am exhausted. Like I was. Okay, you're not starting with 10,000 steps a day. That's the benchmark a lot of people arbitrarily pick. But start with a five minute walk. Start with a 10 minute walk. If you're there, then go to 20 minutes. You need to start increasing this up. We need at least 150 minutes to ideally 300 minutes of low intensity cardio every week.

So what's amazing to me is that I think most people don't realize that the more you do, the more you can do, and the less you do, the less you can do. And so even if you're feeling exhausted, get overcome that inertia and go take a walk. Because that walk will give you energy that is clearing out your mitochondria and helping you to recover the energy. And it seems counterintuitive. Like, if you're tired, rest.

Right, of course.

But the truth is that the only way that you're going to overcome that fatigue is through activity.

Everyone wants to like, wrap you up in like a blanket and you'd be a little cancer burrito, you know, on the couch. And like, that is not helping you. Like, that is of course what your mom and your aunties are like. That's how they're going to care for you. That is hurting you.

I know, I know. So, okay, it's amazing. And I, and I love that. I love that statistic that you share because it is so impactful. And I think when people see that, it kind of, it empowers them to get over that hump and overcome that resistance. Because look at that benefit just from being outside and walking around.

You know, can you imagine if we could bottle that up and sell it, we'd be billionaires.

I know, I know. But incidentally, the numbers are very similar in depression reduction with exercise. And exercise is as good as or better than any drug on the market at treating depression.

Yeah, but it's not very, like, sexy and marketable, is it?

Yeah, because it makes a lot of sense, but it doesn't make a lot of dollars.

No. So. And I mean, even women, when I say exercise will go, like, okay, like, should I join a gym? Should I buy a rebounder? Should. And I was like, you should literally put shoes on your feet and find the sidewalk outside of your house. Like, that's it. That's it. Walking. And then like, once you do that for 30 days, 60 days, then let's talk about, like, okay, what else can we add in? Or maybe you do need different shoes. Or like, like, okay, but like, let's just start, right?

Just get started. Go out and walk.

So then that's the first thing. Then the second part of targeted exercise. So get that 59% reduction. You have to also do strength training.

Okay, now why is that so important? What is it about strength training that's so important? Because people like to know the why, right?

Yeah, totally.

Like, if I'm going to do it, I want to know why I'm doing it.

Yeah. So I always ask this question in response to that is like, no one ever asks me the why behind low intensity cardio. No one's ever like, how come I have to do low intensity cardio? But women will definitely ask me, why strength training? So, like, maybe we're just cultured to accept that we need to do low intensity cardio, but we haven't been raised to, like, believe we need to do strength training. But progressive muscle overload is, like, the key to health, really. And if we think about breast cancer survivors specifically, like, let's say many are going to be diagnosed in their 40s or 50s, 60s, somewhere in that, like, menopause was common. Breast cancer or. No, breast cancer, like, that was common for you. Okay, yes. And you needed to do strength training into menopause, like, leading in your 20s. Sure. But like, yeah, so, like, if you hadn't clued into it by the time you were 40, like, now was the time, like, you got to do it, right, because you're gonna lose muscle mass, right? Like, you're gonna lose actually, like, the.

Cornerstone of your metabolism. And you literally cannot have metabolic health unless you maintain your muscle mass mass, because it is the ratio of lean tissue to fatty tissue that give that Metabolic health.

Like, do you think about just sitting here, like, talking? You would actually be burning more calories if you had more muscle mass on your body.

Yes.

So we wonder, like, you've lost all this muscle mass, you've gained all this weight. Well, that, like that. That's what happens with cancer, right? You lose all this muscle mass because you're sedentary and you're ill, but then you gain a bunch of weight. Well, like, there it is, right?

Yeah. Yeah, it's terrible. Yeah. Which is why I know I went to the gym this morning and let my friend Jen torture me like she does every Monday and Thursday morning.

What a good friend.

I love her and I hate her.

And I love her and I hate her. I hate her at roommate and I.

Love her at 8:50.

Yeah, right. Oh, my gosh. So true.

So while we're on this topic, and you don't have to answer if you don't want, but what do you think of all these GLP1 drugs in the cancer population? Because I know that gaining weight and being overweight is such a tremendous risk factor for cancer, especially breast cancer, but there are certainly other cancers that you are more likely to have if you're overweight.

Totally.

But that, where I struggle is like, I don't know who to believe, because we're talking about, you know, when you lose that weight. Yes, you are losing weight, but you're also losing your muscle mass. You're losing your bone mass. And are these people really metabolically healthy? I don't know. I don't know the answer. Do you have a feeling about this?

You're like, you saying, I don't know. I'm like, that's where we're kind of at. Right? That's where we're kind of at on that whole class of drugs is, I think with the women that I've worked with, it hasn't come up as much as I had expected it to come up because they're just so sick of putting stuff in their bodies.

Yeah.

Like, they're so sick.

Yeah. They're tired of it.

Prodded. And they're just like, I do not want to do this. And so it hasn't come up as much, but I think we just don't know. And if you're. Either way, like, if I look at weight loss overall, if we're. If you're losing weight rapidly, whether that's with a drug or not, you're losing muscle mass. And that is not. That's not what we want, period. It doesn't matter. Drug or no drug, it's not what we want. So that is concerning. But yeah, I just, I don't think we have the answer. I think the fortunate part is we're going to have an answer pretty quick because of the number of people that have gone on them. Yeah.

I don't know what your numbers are like in Canada, but I heard something like 1 in 8 or 1 in 9 people in the US are on that drug, which is astounding to me. Yeah, that, that is an astounding number of people. Now it's probably pretty close to the number of people who need it because we only, we have like less than 10% of people in the US with metabolic health, with optimal metabolic health. So, you know, those numbers do coincide that most people who are in that position are taking that drug. But it, it's scary to me in that I don't think that we have the answers. I don't think that we know what the long term effects of that drug are. Certainly not in the overweight alone population. This drug was studied as a diabetes medication.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, you know, these are people.

Long time. Yeah, relatively long time. Yeah.

But, but we were using it in.

People who weren't totally different.

Compromised.

Totally.

Right.

Because you wouldn't want to inject yourself. Right? Yeah, that was always the rationale is that this was like going to be down the road in terms of lines of treatment because who would want to inject themselves? Yeah, right.

Yeah.

But turns out a lot of people.

I mean the people, the people that are advocating for it like think that everyone, they think that everyone should be walking around with an IV drip. And the people that are, you know, I'm just a little cautious in that. You know, we've already been through something that was massively rolled out without the data. So I'm not looking to jump on another one of those bandwagons until we know that it is long term safe. Because the last thing we want to do is trade in one problem for another.

Well, look, I think when I am always going to be an advocate for exercise, like whether we're independent of weight, you know, so like whether you're on a weight loss drug or not, or you're, you're thin, never had a weight problem or not, like you, this, this has to happen. Your body is not intended to sit at a desk all day. That's not what your body has been designed to do. So it would be silly. I mean, it's so funny because my client, success manager, she ended up having like, back to Back meetings last Monday. And she's very active, of course. Like, that's our culture. And she was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe people do this every single day. Like, no wonder people are depressed and overweight. Like, oh my gosh. Horrible. Let's make sure this never happens to you again. No back to back meetings anymore.

Yeah, yeah, it's horrible. I mean, I for myself got a standing desk with a treadmill underneath it.

I love it.

But on Thursdays when I'm recording all day, like, I sit in that chair and by the time the at the day finishes, my back hurts. I'm not myself. Like, it takes its toll. And that's just one day.

Yes, that's just one day. Your energy, like tonight. Right?

Awful.

It's like Netflix. Yeah, yeah. Like, it's brutal. Yeah, yeah.

So. And you know, we did it that way. So that I just had one day.

Yeah. Of it. Yeah, sure.

So that, you know, that wouldn't happen every single day. But it's hard. It's definitely hard.

Yeah.

And I mean, you record a podcast too. I'm sure that, I'm sure that you have that as well.

Like on days like that. And because a lot of women will say that to me, like, look, they're in back to back meetings or appointments, like their therapists or whatever it is. And I'm like, we need to stagger like five minute walks then, like, and I feel this with myself too. And I'll probably do this today as well. Is like, get up and I go out to the bathroom. But I'm like taking the long trek around to the bathroom. Right. And then by the end of the day, it's like shocking. If you do that every hour, it's shocking how that all stacks up. And you're probably pretty close to 10,000 steps at the end of the day.

Yeah. I just, for my part, make sure that I take that time in between. I go out, I'll walk around my driveway, I will, like, get out in the sunshine. I'll go hit the ball for the dogs for five minutes. Because, you know, I'm very fortunate in being able to work from my out of my home. But you have to, have to, have to do that because sitting truly is the new smoking.

Right.

And that sedentary lifestyle, that's not a net zero. It's actually a negative. It's actually having a negative impact. It's not a neutral thing sitting around. It's having a definite negative impact.

Oh, for sure. I said, even when people say to me, like, look, I'm postpartum, or I'm post surgery. I'm post op. I can't exercise because I'm post op. I'm like, you can walk. Like, it is never a good idea to avoid movement. Never, Never. Okay.

I know.

So, like, if you're gonna get up, you're gonna go use the bathroom, you're gonna go prepare a piece of toast for yourself. Well, you need. You can still walk. And I will literally say that to my post mastectomy women. Like, I understand. Like, you know, sometimes surgeons will say interesting things like, don't, you know, don't break a sweat. Like, that's kind of their metric. Or no lifting heavy things. So I get it. Great. But like, move your body around. Like, so let's hit 5,000 steps today. Let's do a 20 minute walk total throughout your day, because sedentary is not going to help you recover and heal now.

And listen, most people who are walking outside, unless you're really powerful walking, you're not breaking a sweat. Go take a stroll, right? Like, if you're recovering from surgery. I was one of those surgeons that, you know, I told people, like, when you feel ready, go for it. Like, nothing. You're not going to hurt anything that I did. And with rare exception, I think I had one woman who took me a little too seriously and went and played a tennis match the day after I did her surgery. And that one was interesting.

That was a tough one. Yeah, fair enough. But, like, most people are not like, most women. I feel maybe your experience is different. Most women, I feel are cautious. Right? Like, they're, you know, they're not like.

But maybe a little overly too cautious.

Like, when I was training and competing, like, the female athletes weren't coming into the gym and like loading like £500 on the barbell and seeing what it was like. No, but the men were. But the women were like, okay, let me see. And so I just think that I translate that to cancer survivors. And if you're the type of woman that's like, I always use the four pound weights. The four. The pink weights. The four pound weights are mine. That's what I use every. And I'm like, oh, you're being too cautious, right? You're being too restrictive. Too cautious.

And, and you're playing small. I mean, I have to say I need to give kudos to JJ Virgin right now because she talks about this all the time. I don't know if you know jj, but she's just brilliant and she talks about how Most women play small and how most women act small and what we should be doing is being big. Yeah, being bigger, aiming higher.

Right. That's what I feel like that's how I was raised is like the goal was smaller. Right. Be thin, be tiny, be small in your voice and gentle. And yes. That, that is not the goal. Like, women in their 20s now should not be aiming to be skinny. They should be aiming to be strong. And so it's hard. You, you've got to give yourself some grace because to reverse that thinking, right. If your parents or your community was always like, oh, be soft spoken or don't make a fuss, well, that's going to take some time to reverse that thinking. Right?

For sure. For sure.

And you need a lot of support from the people around you because, I mean, at least, you know, I think there's a reason why I didn't get married until I was 35. And I think that there is a reason why I'm with the man that I'm with. Because sometimes it's not so easy to be with a woman who's big. Huh? Right.

It's not.

And, and you know, it takes a very, very confident man to be able to be paired with that. Because we still have so many societal. More norms where the man is big and the woman is small.

Yes, right. We see that. My husband and I see that all the time. And like, when something will be like, pushed on us societally and societal. I'm not sure that's a word, but then I think it is all like, we just kind of look at each other like. Like what?

Like what?

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So we talked about the need for exercise and the importance of exercise before we move on. I just do want to hear, like, what made you become a weightlifter? Where did that come from?

From?

Why did you want to be big? Why did you want to be strong?

I've always been athletic. I will say that. I've always. And I'm grateful I was raised that way too, because that's really become part of my identity. And I, and we, well, we have studies to show that people that see themselves in that light, they actually are healthier people because they'll can stick with exercising longer, they'll eat healthier. So I really do see myself that way. I've always been athletic, like track and field or volleyball or curling. I don't know. We curl in Canada. I don't know if you guys. Yeah. Know what I'm talking about.

I don't get it at all.

So, like, I Was always in something. I started dating my husband who already was a competitive weightlifter, and I like begged him to teach me. Right. Because at the time I was running marathons and I was like, body type wise, I'm not a runner. Like, I'm not going to excel at this. Right. I enjoyed it, but I'm not going to excel. But I was like, you're not long.

And lean like a gazelle?

No, no. I only see from here to here. The 30 inch inseam is not doing me any favors really. So I'm like, pretty compact impact as a person.

Okay, okay.

And so I was like, teach me.

How, because we call that sturdy in my family. Just so you know.

Great. That's what every woman dreams of being described as. Right? It's dirty. Yeah, yeah.

When my father would describe me growing up, that's how he referred to me. So you can imagine the years of therapy that I had to do as a result of that sturdy.

Oh my gosh. Yes. So I asked my husband, I was like, teach me, like, teach me how to do this. And finally he came. He was my boyfriend at the time. And I think, like, I weight trained for not very long, leading into my next half marathon. And I always ran with my sister and she was always better than me. And then I started strength training and I spanked her. She was like having a hard time to keep up with me. And I was like, okay. Wow. Then after that race, I was like, kept strength training and I was like, hey, look, I'm built, I'm sturdy, so I'm built for strength training. And that's where I started competing. And then I just had like really quick success because of probably my attitude, like, my mindset is pretty high achieving, but also like, you have to be like a little bit of a daredevil, I would say, to excel at that because it's scary at times. But also I was body type wise, I was built for it. Yeah.

So it found you.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Okay.

So the benefits of exercise are undeniable. Are there any other undeniables out there in the world of cancer prevention?

Yeah, I said we want to talk about something a little bit more flashy or marketable. So I think we have to talk about foods that we need to be avoiding as cancer survivors. And when we talk about, like, universally, you know, there's really only two foods that I'm like, blanket statement have been linked to cancer. Okay. And people do get quite defensive over these foods because they're fun. Right. Like this is fun. Right. And Then when you say, like, hey, you're fun times, you should probably get rid of them. People don't like that. Right. But yeah, when you think about this, this makes sense. You know, these aren't health foods. Right. Like, you know, these two foods are not gonna live you a health, lead you to a healthier life. Okay. So the first one, in fact, we've.

Had, we've had lots of studies that they do quite the opposite, and they're very good at doing quite the opposite.

Okay, totally. But like, the first one is alcohol. And to your point about, we've had studies to show that they've done the opposite. People are still really hanging on to this idea from, like, probably the 80s or 90s that you get like antioxidants from red wine. Okay, I know that, but you have.

To look at who, you have to look at who paid for that study. Right. Because it was paid for by the wine industry.

I should always look at that. Yeah.

And I also think that as women, we need to stop relying on the data that may or may not have been proven in men, because we are not equal. And alcohol is a glaring example of how we are not equal because men's ability to process alcohol is far superior. And it's not good for men either. Let me just like, yeah, put it out there. It is not good for me either, but it has a profoundly worse effect on women than it does on men.

Yeah.

I hate this.

They do. They hate it, right?

And they do not like this conversation. I'm like, shoot the messenger.

I know, I understand why. Right? Because you're like, well, I'm supposed to go to Thanksgiving without a drink. Or like, I like to go out for cocktails with my girlfriend. Or like, I like craft beer. Like, you're taking this all away. And I'm like, okay, look, I, I, you don't have to go from, to, from 100 to 0. Okay? Don't think about it that way. Right? Think about it as. We've got some pretty clear guidelines on like, the stratification of risk here, okay? So we know if you drink less than a drink a day, okay, Your risk is going to be around 9%. Okay? So for me, as a cancer survivor, I'm like, that feels too high for me. Also, like, most health conscious people aren't drinking every single day. Most, some are, but most. Okay, so what if we go less than a half a drink a day? So less than three drinks per week. Well, that increases your risk of cancer by about 4%. Okay? So it's seemingly from the data that we have, like a linear risk here. So it's not like a light switch. Yes or no? It's like a dimmer. Okay. So the more you drink, the higher your risk. The less you drink, the lower your risk. Okay.

Yeah.

No amount of alcohol is without risk. And that's just it. Like, don't shoot the messenger. That's the truth about it. And I.

But I'll tell you that I've had very, very difficult conversations with people with regard to alcohol consumption, and it is not unusual for me to have the woman present saying, I drink a bottle of wine a day. Like, this is not an unusual thing to happen in my office.

Oh, my.

And my stance has been. I really think it's impossible to heal while you're consuming all that alcohol.

A toxin.

And that if you are actively cancering. Yeah, if you're actively cancering and you're filling that bucket with toxins every single day, you're not emptying it out. I mean, how. I just don't see a path to healing. When you're in it. When you're in it now, if it's in your rearview mirror and you've made sweeping changes to really improve your health, do I think an occasional glass of alcohol is going to have an impact on you? No, I don't. But I think when you're in it, I think that. That it would behoove you to not increase your toxic load at that time. And what is really surprising to me is the. The effect of alcohol and its implications are totally underappreciated. Like, there are still so many women who have no idea that alcohol is. Is a major contributor to cancer.

Yeah. It's shocking, isn't it?

Shocking.

Shocking. We have, like, this clear link and it's like.

But again, I think that this societal normalization has had a tremendous impact and people believe and hang on to things that they want to believe.

Yeah.

More than they do things that they don't.

I get that. Right. Like, especially, like, I really enjoy X. Then if someone comes under attack with it, that would be hard. But I like to think about alcohol and mirror it to smoking. Okay. Because. Would we. Would we truthfully say, if you smoke once in a while, that's okay?

No, no, we wouldn't.

No, we wouldn't. You know, so, like, I think we've got a ways to go here. Even like a lot of clinicians, because they'll say like, oh, oh, in moderation. We don't say like cigarette smoking in moderation.

No.

Like, have you not Heard over the last 50 years, like, this shit kills you. Like, so stop, stop that. Like, stop. Don't do that. Right. And so some of it, we're trending in that direction. Direction.

Yeah, you're right. You're absolutely right. And I didn't think about that before now. I think some of that is the. Oh, well, it has resveratrol or. Oh, it has, you know, like, I, I think that there is some like, basic belief that there is some benefit there. Right. It's not all bad. Whereas I think everyone can clearly agree. Agree that smoking is all bad. Like there's no benefit there at all. And I think that people are really hanging on to, well, there could be some benefit there despite all of the things that are not beneficial.

I hear a lot of people saying, like, look, you know, my granny, she ate, you know, she drank glasses and.

Bacon and had whiskey every day.

She lived and took.

She.

Yeah, like, okay, okay, yeah. And that I'm amaz. That first of all, that's amazing that grandma sounds like kick ass. Okay. And the second thing is, like, that's one person. When we look at like large data from large groups of people, this is the trend. So it doesn't guarantee that like you drink, you're going to get cancer or you don't drink, you won't get cancer. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about like trends here. Yeah.

But we also have to remember that your granny, this is not her earth. The earth that we are living on now, this is not your granny's earth. This isn't even your mama's earth.

Right.

The earth that we're living on now is exponentially more toxic. And our genes have not caught up with this toxic environment. So we have the same detoxification genes that we've had for thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of years before all of these toxins even existed. So our bodies are facing challenges now that they have never had to face before. And they're like, what the hell do I do with this? Yeah, right. Okay, so we're not, we're not recommending any amounts of alcohol. So we're gonna hold the line as professionals because alcohol is like smoking.

I think if you're going to drink, you just gotta know, like, if you're willing to take on a risk, that's cool because we all have different risk tolerances, right? For sure, I might take on more risk than you or maybe less. And I'm totally happy with it. And you're happy and that all of that's good. Just know your risks and then just be confident with your. Your level of acceptance around that.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, what's next?

So number two is not going to be a shocker either. But number two is processed meats. So these are things like deli meat or sausages. Charcuterie boards. Again, I just, like, totally killed your book club. Your book club drinks and appies. I totally took all the fun out of them.

I know. That's right. All right, well, ladies, you have to make a hummus tray.

Oh.

And yeah, like.

Figure it out.

A mocktail.

Right. You know what? I will say the good thing around alcohol is that we do see societal shifts with alcohol too. There are far more non alcoholic drinks available now than even when I had my son five years ago. Like, way more. I was drinking these tear, like terrible fake beers, right. To try to like participate in Christmas. They taste terrible. Like you couldn't even get through half of it. Now we have way better alternatives for just non alcoholic options.

Yeah, I don't know. I'm a sparkling water person, so I guess I just don't even think about that.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, you know, it's not hard to believe that these processed meats are bad for you. And yet people love them. They're like, I mean, no matter where you go out to breakfast, what's on the menu? Bacon and sausage. I mean, I actually remember when I was offered a position at one of the top university hospitals and they wanted me to be the first chair of integrative oncology in the country. And I said to the chief medical officer, I said, what are we going to do about the cafeteria? He said, what do you mean? I said, well, you know, I can't have people waking up from cancer surgery and have them have a breakfast of sausage and bacon. Like, I can't do that.

This is it.

This is a teachable moment. He's like, yeah, cafeteria is off the table. What do you mean? He said, well, part of the scores that determine our reimbursement are based on how good the food tastes and people don't like healthy food. And he was dead serious with me. Dead serious.

That is so insane. Because healthy food can taste incredible. First of all, of course it can taste incredible. And I mean, if you have the right people preparing it.

Yes, but hospitals should not be serving the very food that landed people in the hospital.

Well, I mean, just coming off of breast cancer awareness month, we see that all the time, right? See pink labels slapped onto wine bottles, which nothing, nothing infuriates me more. And like how you have some guts doing that. Like the very thing that causes cancer, you're going to put a pink ribbon on.

Yeah. And the, and the people that are buying it have this, like doing good.

Yeah.

Like they, they feel, they feel as if they're like giving to a cause and that no one understands that they are perpetuating the disease. And it's infuriating. All the pink washing is infuriate. Infuriating. I always say, please, please, please think before you pink. Yeah, think.

I mean, I think even the charities.

That you're supporting, like, you, you, we need to know what these charities are actually doing because, you know, if they're giving money for more drug development, I'm not sure that that's what we need. We need prevention. We need to be talking about these things that we're talking about here, and that's not happening.

The most infuriating thing was last year, just before October, I get reached out to a lot to do sponsored posts or whatever it is for breast cancer awareness month. And this year I didn't do any because last year I got approached by a beef jerky company that wanted me to talk about their beef jerky and it had all this pink all over it. And I just there, I was like, there is no way. There is no way.

Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, that's another thing that's trending and people are feeling good because it's carb free or cheap Cheeto or whatever it is. And they don't realize that this is like a highly processed food that is carcinogenic.

Yeah. Yeah. It's really clearly linked to cancer.

Yeah. Okay, so these are the things that we are all avoiding.

Yeah.

Are there things that we should all make sure that we're consuming?

Well, this is a harder one. Right. Because universally when we think about things to consume across the board, the quantity is really important.

Right.

The amount of the types of foods you're eating are really, really important. So I always say that with like an asterisk. Berries. Berries are just like, so I feel like they're so underrated. Maybe they're not. Maybe they get the attention they deserve. But they're so high in fiber and high in antioxidants. And two things we know that cancer survivors need to prevent recurrence. Antioxidants and fiber. The more fiber you eat, the lower your risk of cancer. And berries are going to give it to you in like an incredibly delicious and antioxidant filled way. Mm.

I'm. I'm drinking Mine.

Like this is just. Yeah, that's. That's a good one for sure.

Yeah, yeah. When you think about how you're making up your plate, what are you thinking about in terms of plate composition? Because I think that that's what most people struggle with. Like, what am I putting on my plate?

Yeah, yeah. So I'm going to start with vegetables or plant based. Okay. Half of your plate is plants. Okay. Now I say half because nobody is doing this. Okay? We are not eating enough vegetables. And I think when we talk about plant based eating, people hear plant based, but what they understand that to be is no meat.

Yeah. They hear plant based and think vegan. And I get like all of these hateful messages on social media. You vegans. And I'm like, I don't know who you're talking to, but I never. I don't use the vegan word because many, many years ago I heard someone say twizzlers, which are. Do you know what twizzlers are?

Those licorice sticks.

Twizzlers are vegan. Okay, I am losing the vegan.

Well, there's no way they can be vegan, but okay. They are. They are. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, so that again, like, because I'm taking this from a place of power, not a place of fear. Okay. We're thinking about the foods to include, not the foods to eliminate. Right. So when you say plant based, it means more plants. It doesn't mean less meat. Okay. So if you don't like eating meat, like, if you're like, I've never liked it. I don't. It doesn't agree with me ethically. Totally. I love that for you. But that eating plant based does not mean the absence of meat. Okay, so half of your plate needs to be vegetables. And I. Typically when we have dinner at my house, there's two different types of vegetables on the table. Because if you have two different options, you're naturally going to dish up more vegetables because you have more options. Okay, so salad and beans, Brussels sprouts and I don't know, sweet potatoes. Like, whatever. Okay. But more of that. Then what? We'll hear about the balance. Like if you've heard of the balanced plate method, typically they'll say quarter protein. I do more protein. Okay, so our fractions are kind of weird now we're doing slightly more than quarter protein. So most women are going to need more. Yeah.

Is that for you? Is that an age based thing? Like as we get older, do we need more protein?

I think it's got age is part of it, but we've got to look at the entire scope of it, too. So as you go through either a forced menopause or a natural menopause, you're going to need more protein. Okay. If you're strength training, you're going to need more protein. If you're recovering from chemo, radiation, surgery, your cells literally need amino acids, specific amino acids, to recover and repair, and that comes from protein. Okay. So all of these things are leading you to need more protein. And, like, overall, women are not getting enough. Like, cancer or no cancer, menopause or no, like, they're not getting enough, period. I've never met a woman that's come to me that was actually eating an adequate amount of protein when she did her first assessment.

Yeah, yeah.

So that's just. That's just the world. The world we're living in, right?

Yeah.

And it's no fault of anyone's, really, because everything that's offered to you, that's quick and delicious. Carbs, like, carbs are amazing. Right? Carbs are delicious. Okay. And they're easy and they're fast. So that's where I kind of build up my plate is, you know, if you're eating half a chicken breast, eat the entire chicken breast. Okay. Just take whatever you're eating for protein and increase that, and then the remainder of your plate is carbs. Yeah.

I love that.

Because it doesn't matter what's for dinner, what's for lunch. If you have that and use that guideline, you're gonna meet your needs, and I totally appreciate that. Most women are not consuming enough protein, and they're also not consuming enough fiber. What are your fiber goals for people for the day?

Yeah. So I do like to set this based on your calories, so again, like, customized to you because fiber is a carb. Right. So depending on where you are in terms of the amount of carbs you're eating, we may have to take into consideration that you're just, like, not eating enough carbs to actually hit a fiber goal. So, yeah, for most women, I'm going to want to see them closer up to the 30 grams of fiber per day that is difficult for a lot of women to obtain.

And so how do you help them.

To.

Reach their goals? Like, I know for my part, I'm making sure that I'm having 2 tablespoons of ground flax seeds a day, and I'm having 2 tablespoons of ground chia seeds a day because that is really boosting my fiber intake and making a Huge difference. Without necessarily getting the bulk of, like, two huge salads.

Yeah. So, yeah, I think the easiest way is always the simplest way. And I shouldn't say the easiest. I think the fastest way is always the simplest way. It's not always the easiest. Okay. So if you're going to start aiming for a half a plate of veggies at every meal, okay. So we're talking breakfast, lunch and supper. Half a plate of veggies. Okay. Then your fiber is going to start to increase. That's just naturally going to happen. So if you're able to take in that many veggies, then your fiber will come up. That might take you some time, though, right? Because that kind of shock, if you're going from like, maybe having one vegetable a day to that, that's going to be a bit shocking for you. So it might take some time, but that's generally the straightest path to get there.

And by shocking, you probably mean that it's gonna cause a lot of gas and bloating because your body is not going to be accustomed to dealing with that much fiber. As opposed to me. I was that kid that, like, loved her vegetables her whole life. So, yeah, I was. I. I probably ate ahead of broccoli at dinner and, like, you know, a head of cauliflower, and it was crazy, crazy. I always, always, always loved vegetables.

Yeah.

Okay, so we know how to plan our plate. Are there any other foods that, for you seem really special in terms of their nutrient value and, like, a lot of. A lot of bang for your buck.

Oh, man. Gosh, there's so many.

I know. That I think about, like, there was a study recently on carrots and how. How beneficial carrots are. For me, I. I don't think it's about any one food. I am way, way, way into diversity. And I tell people all the time, like, broccoli's great.

Yeah.

But you don't want to just eat broccoli because then you only get the benefits of broccoli and you to want. Want all of the benefits.

I get so many questions, like, in my DMs, too, about, like, what do you think about bean sprouts? Well, bean sprouts are great, but we're again, like, it's like, imagine yourself in, like, an art gallery, and you're standing like, this close to a painting. Like, that's all you're seeing, right? You need to take about 10ft, you just walk back 10ft, and then all of a sudden you're going to realize, oh, this is a very different picture than. It's not really about the bean sprouts or the broccoli or the berries. It's actually about something a lot bigger. It's just like, it takes a lot more work and strategy if you back up, but it helps you get to the result you're looking for faster.

Yeah.

So if you truly wanted to stay cancer free, then you need to back up and you need to look at your diet in its entirety versus looking at specific foods.

Yeah. So we've talked about so many great things here today. I just want to go back and summarize that, you know, clearly even healthy people can get cancer, because it certainly happened to you and your diagnosis came at a time when you were seemingly at your healthiest.

Yeah.

And so these things can happen to healthy women and that they can also blindside you even when it seems like in retrospect you should have known, but that you were totally blindsided. Because cancer is subtle and cancer is sneaky, and we often don't have any symptoms until it is very advanced. And that is the major problem with cancer, is that we're generally not symptomatic until much later on in the disease, but that even someone who went through treatment had very conventional treatment, had some not so great side effects from treatment. Right. You know, a 20 pound, weight gain, exhaustion, all of the things that came along with it. You yourself said your health after cancer was the best that it's ever been.

Yeah, totally.

And I think just looking at you, I mean, your life after cancer is the best that it's ever been.

Absolutely. Without a doubt. And I mean, I think there's just so much hope. Right. And I know when you're in it, it's so dark. Like, those were some of the darkest days I've ever lived through. But there is so much possibility.

Yeah. Amazing. And you have so much more power than you think. And for everyone, it's about literally and figuratively stepping into that power.

Yeah.

Walk your way to that power. Lift your way to that power. Eat your way to that power. Because you can do it. You can. And you can live big and live strong. And that is actually how we should be living. Big and strong.

Yeah.

Tell people where they can find you, because you have an Amazing, amazing YouTube presence. Like, I love your YouTube presence.

Thank you. Yeah, you can definitely find me on YouTube. So I'm Dr. Amy Cancer Recovery. YouTube and Instagram are my two most active platforms, the ones I enjoy the most. So you'll find me there. The Most Instagram is Dr. Amy Cancer Recovery. And you can always reach me@cancerfreedomprogram.com and.

What are you offering people who are recovering from a cancer diagnosis?

Yeah, so our flagship program is the Cancer Freedom Program. So that's a 12 week program where it's a combination of one on one co coaching and group coaching. Because like I've talked about a lot here, this really needs to be customized to the individual. So you need a personalized plan for you rather than a one size fits all. So the Cancer Freedom Program is going to give you that. It's going to give you a community of cancer thrivers, but it's also going to give you that customized support. So our three core pillars are nutrition, targeted exercise and transformative mindset.

Amazing. Amazing. Well, I thank you so much for being here, for sharing your so inspiring story, for the work that you're doing, for the give back that you've given, and for just being that shining light, that shining example of what is possible. Because we all need to know that we have so much more power than we think. You just need to tap into it. If you liked this episode, please like it, share it, give us a comment and we welcome your feedback. And if you are dealing with a breast cancer diagnosis, don't forget to pick up your copy of the Smart Woman's Guide to Breast Cancer and know that I will be back next week, same time, same place. It's Dr. Jen. Bye for now.

Thank you for tuning in to the Keeping a Breast Cancer podcast with me, Dr. Jen Simmons. I hope today's episode has inspired you and equipped you with valuable insights to take control of your breast health and overall well being. If you found our conversation enlightening, please consider liking and sharing this podcast. Every like, share and comment helps us to reach more listeners just like you who are on a journey to better health. Let's spread the word and make a collective impact. If you are or anyone you know is dealing with a breast cancer diagnosis, I highly recommend picking up a copy of my bestselling book, the Smart Woman's Guide to Breast Cancer. It's designed to guide you through understanding the root causes of breast cancer and provides you the tools you need to navigate the complexities of a breast cancer diagnosis, the complexities of treatment, and all the while providing you the tools you need to reclaim your health. If you or someone you know is navigating a breast cancer diagnosis and seeking integrative, personalized care, Visit us@realhealthmd.com We're here to support you every step of the way. Also, for those interested in the latest breast screening technology that's safe, painless and accurate. Be sure to check out perfectionimaging.com and remember, perfection is spelled with a QT in the middle. Our innovative approach is forever changing the way that we think about and conduct breast cancer screenings. Remember, health is a journey, not a destination. I'm honored to be part of your journey towards health. Stay tuned for our next episode. And until then, remember, breast health is healthy.