Follow Her Steps to a $1M Biz | Jenny Woo x Dr. Juna

Hi there, mompreneurs. I have a special treat for you today. If you're creative and looking to find meaningful work for yourself, I'm so glad you're here. Today I'm speaking with Dr. Jenny Wu, a mom and entrepreneur and CEO of Mind Brain Emotion, who's been featured in CNBC Make It, the Harvard Gazette, and many other publications and news outlets for her award-winning series of educational card games to help kids and adults develop human skills in the age of AI. The 52 Essential Relationship Skills have sold over $1 million of product on Amazon alone. Hi, Jenny.

Hello, Juna. How are you?

I'm good. So excited to see you today. This is gonna be a fun episode because not only am I gonna interview you, you're actually gonna ask me questions too.

Absolutely.

So I thought it would be really fun to do this in like a two-part. Okay.

Awesome.

Okay. So today I have with me Dr. Jenny Wu. So you have a PhD in education, a Harvard-trained educator, and we're gonna talk about that cuz we both went through the same program. And Jenny is a mom of 3. She's an emotional intelligence researcher, and you have an MBA as well.

That's right.

Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. So you and I both like to get degrees, obviously.

Oh my goodness. Feels like it never ends, right?

Jenny has made this incredible tool. It's called Mind, Brain, Emotion, and they're simple cards, and it's called 52 Essential Conversations. And you have a whole different kind of, a whole different array of card decks, right? That you could use to teach social emotional learning to teens and, uh, just even adults. That's right. So she's gonna tell me, tell us all about that. And we're also gonna go into entrepreneurship for moms. I think you and I are similar, very involved with our kids, but at the same time we have a career and we probably have a passion project. I'm sure that this is your passion project cuz I, I can see it in the way you talk about it and all of the, um, interviews you've done. And I've been following you for a little while, so let's get into it. I'm really excited to find out all about your journey. Let's do it. Let's go from the beginning. Before you became a mom, what was—

Oh my goodness. Uh, you know, it's so funny because I would never have imagined myself to be where I am today. Pre-motherhood days. So I was in management consulting. I was very much climbing the corporate ladder, traveling every week, and I honestly, I loved it. It was great because, you know, I think, Juna, you and I, we love juggling things and side passion projects. And so that type of lifestyle really suited me where I was able to hop from project to project and working with Fortune 500 companies. And my focus was really around leadership development, change management, organizational culture. And so jokingly, I had just realized around, say, my 20s that I'm not very good at numbers. I did a bunch of internships and jobs for banking, commodities, and I was like, I can't really get passionate with numbers. And then there are the products, which I've also done the internships in. And it just— it doesn't feel just viscerally close and relatable. And I— so that's how I landed with people, working with people and inspire them to reach their greatest potential.

Amazing. OK, so you've been doing this all along. This has been your passion all along. And what did you study in college? And where did you work for management consulting?

Yeah, I studied business administration with an emphasis in informatics. So I was a bit of an— I loved technology and also people, and I worked right out of college at Deloitte Consulting. So it's one of the consulting firms and absolutely loved it.

All right, so that explains a lot to me because you're such a great speaker and obviously you're so well-versed in leadership and all that. But then you had 3 kids, right? Yeah. Fast forward.

Fast forward.

So did you do— you can't really do part-time with management consulting, right?

Exactly. Not at all. And I also ended up in between that going into industry. So I worked at Cisco Systems really around talent strategy planning, executive coaching, succession planning. So still in, you know, the same realm of human development, but really in the case of adult human development. And so, yeah, when I became a mom of 3, and, you know, at the time, I, you know, I have an older one who is 14 now and 12-year-old But, you know, rewind at the time, I was having 3 children, all under 3, all in diapers.

Oh wow.

Yeah, honestly, everything I had been teaching about composure, right, finessing and all that good stuff went out the window for myself. And I'm like, I'm such a hypocrite.

Oh my gosh.

Like, I need to get myself in order and figure out what is happening.

I love that because, you know, I've been studying mind-body medicine and, you know, I teach meditation, I teach about the brain and all of that. And people are always like, wait, but you teach about this, aren't you calling all the time? I'm like, no, of course not. That's why I learned all this stuff.

Exactly. Right. One, it's very much stemming from our own struggles. And two, we're being the lifelong learners. We wanna learn and we will want to make an impact and help other people. So I'm with you on that, you know, and actually with emotional intelligence, one of the first thing I say these days to debunk the myth is that even emotionally intelligent people blow up. I was like, let's just get this straight. Everybody, you know, like every human, we have our, you know, regrettable blowup moments. But the key is really knowing how to repair our relationships and maintain friendships.

I mean, emotions are such a big part of the human experience. It's not like we're excising it from ourselves just because we're learning about emotions.

Exactly. I think it was, you know, Susan of the Harvard Medical School who said, you know, if you don't want to have any emotions, then you essentially have the dead people's goals, right?

Yes. Okay. So now you're home with 3 little kids. You can't do full-time management consulting because that takes a lot of travel. So what are you— how did you end up at Hudzi? So we both, you know, I found out about you. I think I saw you on CNBC. Where you were talking about this incredible business you built around these cars, which you'll talk to us about more. And then I found out that you had gone to Harvard Graduate School of Education, which is where I went to school this year. I just had my last class at, I cross-registered at MIT this semester. So I took all these entrepreneurship courses at MIT Sloan Business School, and I'm just finished. So it's so fitting that you're here today. I'm so excited that you finally made it. And we connected. But what led you to HGSE? We call it HGSE. It's Harvard Grad School of Education.

Oh my gosh, such a meaningful moment and intersection for the two of us. So thank you so much for having me. So after having 3 kids, I didn't just immediately jump to, ooh, I'm gonna go to fuck where it hurts, which is to education. Not quite at all. It was a bit windy in the sense that I was trying to figure it out. And so I had tried a bunch of different arrangements from stay-at-home mom briefly for when my first really was there. And then the twins, the beginning of their, you know, first year. But then I was the contractor mom. I was still sort of tied into the industry and doing gigs and contracting roles that were coming up. And then I ended up actually starting an Etsy business. So I was that DIY crafty mom and yeah, yeah. And that really—

wait, so you're a true entrepreneur.

I love it.

What were you selling on Etsy?

Well, imagine a mom with 3 kids, right? What do you usually do? It's the birthday parties. It's, you know, the shirt designs and all that good stuff. So I did photo booths, I love it, birthday banners. And when I had twins, they're fraternal and I just didn't see any sort of really wedding. Clever twin, you know, onesies and shirts. And I decided to create my own. And then lo and behold, I realized there was a demand when my friends were asking for it and the multiples, you know, twin group. And so—

I love this.

Yeah. Yeah.

Oh my gosh. So when I was on pregnancy leave from— so I'm a physician by training, so I'm a radiologist and I was on my maternity leave and I actually sourced onesies. From when they didn't have organic back then, I'm dating myself, but they didn't have organic onesies back then. So I sourced my own and I was gonna start a business. And then of course I went back to work and, and it kind of went out the window, but I had my organic onesies when nobody was selling them.

Oh my goodness.

Yeah.

Colored Organic were the brands and it's so funny. Yeah.

And I love that.

And you know, you would not believe just even at that time, serendipitously, I ended up getting hooked up with Raffinelli Events, which was a huge event planning company here in Boston and they did, you know, Chelsea Clinton's wedding, just a lot of high-profile celebrity, you know, politician type of events. And so I think it was the combination of being crafty, but also putting on the prior, you know, corporate management consulting hat, I was able to really custom design a lot of things for them. And that actually enabled me to make a living at the time as an Etsy mom.

Amazing. So you actually successful at Etsy. That's amazing. Did you learn how to get in front of the algorithm somehow? Like, or is it really that if you create a product that's in demand, you don't really have to hack the algorithm because the algorithm is really there to help people find things that are actually popular or in demand.

Yeah.

Yeah. So how did you figure out Etsy?

At the time I didn't know what Etsy was. It was earlier on in the Etsy stages. It wasn't until a friend at, you know, my son's birthday party said, hey, people on Etsy would buy these things. And I was like, what's Etsy? And so it was trial and error. And I, I definitely can't take credit knowing, you know, being savvy with the algorithms and stuff. I think maybe just finding niches that you're passionate about, but didn't quite exist at the time. And so maybe I was rather on the forefront when it comes to creating photo booth props because photo booths were just becoming a thing. So kind of really more forecasting, understanding the market trends. Which is— yeah.

I love it. But did you do it naturally, or did you do research on it?

Yeah, I had my wedding, which I made my photo booth props. So in some way, it's very organic. But certainly, I started branching into— at the time, Mad Men, the show, was huge, obviously, 007. So I did some research and realized, for example, there were photo booth props for party— themed parties. And so I created my own Mad Men-themed photo booth prop set or the 007, and that just became a hit. So iterative, understanding the cues from the market and doing more research towards, you know, other things that you can expand.

Amazing. So it was like out of your need and somebody would tip you off like, oh, other people would like this. And then how did you manufacture it?

Oh, I made everything at the time. Yeah, at the time.

By hand?

Absolutely by hand.

The onesies? Oh, no, no, no, no.

Like I got the blank onesie organic shirts. Yes. But At the time.

Uh-huh. Oh, and then you put a design on it. Exactly.

You do the vinyl design, you cut and heat press everything. And so at the time Etsy—

So you did it by hand?

You heat press? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yourself?

Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

Amazing. And that was the policy for Etsy. You— everything had to be handmade or a majority of handmade elements. And, you know, I enjoy that. It's very therapeutic for me. And so—

That's amazing. So do you still have that store?

You know, if you go on Etsy, it's Live Laugh Love, or I think I might have renamed it to Prop Mama. Uh, it's still there. You'll see over 2,000 reviews from customers and, you know, getting reviews.

That was— Amazing.

—definitely 5-star, you know, like that was another learning. But yeah, but I no longer, it's incredibly time-consuming. Oh, okay. Cuz you're like shipping— And you're handmaking.

Yeah. So you're, so you actually made a living out of that though?

No, I obviously 3 kids, I, I wouldn't call it like sustainable, but there were some periods where You know, being the cash cow of not just Etsy, but really meeting, say, Raffinelli events, right? Doing custom design. That was really nice.

So you made photo props for Raffinelli events?

No, you would not believe the things they had me make. Actually, I did make photo booth props for them, custom for corporate conferences that were like Scouts camping oriented. I've also made thousands and thousands of lanyard. For, I think this might have been like even the IRE, some kind of financial convention where I ended up employing a lot of fellow moms and stay-at-home moms. So they were able to make a living because I, you know, had incentives and if they could hand-make these number of lanyards, you know, so I wanted to bring other people in. And then of course I also made just very, like, these are like ginormous, um, penwheels as table centerpieces for bat mitzvahs. And the most, the coolest thing I had to make was little like bracelets. It was for Michelle Obama's Let's Move kids campaign for eating healthy. And it appeared in the White House. So that was really neat.

Amazing. Wow. You're a creator. I had no idea. Okay. So now fast forward, you're going, what made you apply to— Oh my gosh. Or Harvard Graduate School of Education. And I think it was the same program. I don't know if it was called the same thing, but I went because It was called Learning Design Innovation Technology, and I really wanted to come back and learn about all the AI stuff. So that's why I went back to school, and I think it was a similar program, but it was called something different. It was a little bit different.

It was more anchored on developmental cognitive neuroscience. So at the time it was called Mind, Brain, and Education, and part of the required course— Oh, I will look. Part of the required course, we got to take the cognitive neuroscience class with the med school students, and that was such a treat. That is—

but yeah, but to answer your question, yeah, there, there was a concentration at Harvard for a while. It was called brain, mind-brain something, but now it doesn't exist anymore.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. But you know, I didn't jump right in from Etsy to there. There's, there were a few other steps. So when I went—

oh my God, I love this. Yeah. I love that you had all these other things going.

Yeah. Yeah. So to peel back the layers, after when it was time for the kids to go to preschool. I was like, oh, you know, I was getting a little burnt out handmaking stuff. And also it was the first time in my life where I was able to have a breather and actually sort of have some empty space, right? And so I realized, you know, like, like many moms, when there are milestone changes and chapters and we're like, what do I do with my life? What do I do with these few hours of, um, against laundry? I know, right? Laundry. Never ever in But again, I was there serendipitously. I had a friend, my oldest, um, son were classmates at this old other Montessori school and they were moving on to a different one. And she mentioned, you know, this is a great one. It's bilingual. Uh, they're just opening. You should check it out. I checked it out, loved it, and then ended up finding out that they were short of a director for the school that's about to open. And so somehow talked my way into being the administrative director for this bilingual Montessori school. Oh my gosh. So my first day of work was like close to when the school opened and my 3 kids, their first day of, of school. And that was the first time my twins were going into a school setting. And this was in Boston or? This was in Southern California. And, and you know, like, like Boston, right? These much relative to cities, it's incredibly expensive. So my reasoning was, yeah, I managed to negotiate free tuition for all three plus some salary, but you know, it's the tuition that counts that's free. And then obviously I need to learn, you know, about this whole education thing and like first-time parent, what do I do? So I figured what best way to learn to just become a part of that environment. And so those were my reasonings.

Wait, that's incredible that you talked yourself into being the director of Montessori school. My kids went to Montessori too. Yeah. Oh, well said. But that's amazing that you were a director. And how did you convince them? You didn't have an education background.

You know, I didn't, but it was an administrative director role. And so very much, I think, in the management consulting, working with people, processes, business processes, um, it was very transferable. And I really enjoyed, you know, like back in the days, I mean, I was a hostess at Denny's and different restaurants. You know, you're the face of a school, but it's the human to human connection. So I think just like channeling those things, I was able to really sell myself. And, um, yeah, it was, it was a great experience.

Love it. Okay. And then finally, how did you end up going back to school? So you did a lot of other things. Obviously, and you're, you were just volunteering like a lot of moms. You actually went and got paid and had actual positions, which would you recommend that to, uh, moms who are younger than us? Because I think, you know, one thing that I regret is, I mean, I was a part-time doctor for a long time, so I went from like full-time to 4 days, 3 days, and then shorter days until it was almost like trickling down. And then I, and then I decided I had the foresight for, you know, when my kids go away to college, I'm gonna be sad. Yeah. And I was like, I'm gonna have to find something that's gonna be sustainable for me, you know, spiritually and, and something that I love to do. So that's how I started getting into mind-body medicine. And then there's other stories around it. But yeah, so that's when I started nurturing this other side, this other career, but I never really dove into it until really recently until my kids went to college. You know? So How did you manage and like, how did you do all this? And yeah, what is your advice for moms at home now? Because I think moms should always be thinking about what's going to happen in the future once their kids leave. And, um, doesn't matter what your husband does. Doesn't matter if he's a gazillionaire.

Yeah, I think preserving our identity and our sense of impact and value is just so important and it's so tied into the dignity of just who we are, not just mom, but human being. And to answer your question, I think there's knowing that there are many different routes to take. And just because you volunteer, that doesn't mean that's any less. And I think the key is really to be involved and to be curious and to stretch yourself and always learn the areas that intrigue you. And I think being moms, we're incredibly resourceful in you know, it's not just for the sake of learning, but, you know, for the betterment of our children or our family or extended family. So that's sort of the mentality I had. But certainly looking back, it felt like easy, right? But it was not. I mean, so I struggled so much with the mom guilt and I still do. And there were times where I was in my darkest days of just feeling stuck. And feeling yet, you know, it's just like such a mixed emotion. In fact, I ended up doing a TEDx Talk and I named it "How to Be Selfish Without Feeling Selfish," because our inner battles are just constant, right? Tug of war. So part of just knowing what to do is defeating our own inner demons in some sense, right? So in short, I would highly encourage moms to find their own thing, right? It could be anything, but have something that you can call your own because you're right, Juna. I mean, when the kids are off to college, who are you, right?

And what do you love? Well, I'm also going to emphasize that volunteering is awesome, but I do think that being able to pull in a paycheck is that confidence builder and I know that, you know, uh, we live in a well-off suburb of New York and I know that most people don't have to work. Let's say, you know, maybe a lot of the moms, not all the moms, but a lot of the moms don't necessarily have to work at, but at some point you might find yourself in a situation where you have to work, right? We never know what's gonna happen. I've had friends who've been widowed. I've had friends who, um, got divorced. Um, lots of different things can happen. So. It's always a great idea to be able to pull in some cash no matter what you're doing, which is why I'm so interested in entrepreneurship. I think in my, you know, deepest desires and in my heart, I've always been an entrepreneur. I love everything you're doing and telling me because I wish I had done more of that. I mean, I'm starting now, but I just love the entrepreneurship journey and I think it's so much more important now than ever before because of AI and everything that's gonna be changing. And even for our kids, to understand entrepreneurship and how to pull in some cash. Yeah. So well said. Yeah. So I really admire you, Jenny, for having started early. So if you have any mom guilt, I can just tell you, cause I'm a little ahead of you.

Don't. Thank you for that. You're doing great.

And I really am so like, I wish I had done more earlier as you are now. I mean, I was a physician, so I guess that's working, but I was not enough. It was not my own practice. So I could have probably pushed on becoming an entrepreneur in medicine, but I didn't. So I really commend you for that and release that mom guilt. You're doing amazingly well.

Thank you so much. That means a lot.

You're not gonna regret that. I regret that. Yes. You're not gonna regret this. You're, yeah, I really think you're doing the right thing. But yeah, tell me more about what other things did you do before?

Yeah. Yeah. You know, okay. So how did I jump then from Montessori to Harvard? Well, It actually— did you have other businesses in between? It was still just, um, contracting speaking gigs or, um, doing Etsy a little bit here and there on the side. But actually, right, pulling in income is amazing and it is truly a confidence booster. And I would say, um, yes, maybe like, but I was getting a little burnt out at the same time. So, um, again, maybe serendipitously or just timing-wise, I ended up getting laid off and Yeah, it was because the CEO was, um, you know, got voted out by the board and there were just lots of changes. A cadre of employees ended up leaving and I was, um, at that time shifted my focus in working on strategic projects on how to monetize the classroom for elementary over the summer. So I had international immersion programs, all kinds of stuff, but you know, so anyhow, they gave me a great severance and I was like, I was feeling a little burnt out and it was actually time for my oldest to move on from Montessori. So it just kind of really all connected. And again, I started having this question like, what should I do with my life? And that was when, you know, I was like, I really want to learn even more about child development, about the science, you know, behind it, the research. Because being in a Montessori school, the pedagogical stuff I learned was great, and I wanted more. And so I had toyed with, you know, going back to school and ended up just to test it out. I volunteered, right? Or interned at a research lab at the University of California Irvine, working with PhD students and investigators to understand. And I was like, oh, I could see myself like in this, in this working in this capacity in academia. And so that was really when I decided, we were in Southern California, go anywhere, it's going to be Harvard. So I basically applied to Harvard and locally the UC Irvine institution. Amazing.

So did you move here to Cambridge for your—

Yeah, you know, thanks to a supportive partner, we moved the whole entire family over to Cambridge. And it was— Wow. You know, we saw it as a way to get out of the— we call it the orange curtain, our own bubble in Orange County. And to really experience. And what— how cool would it be to experience as a family and really allowing our kids to see the East Coast? So that was our reasoning. And at the time, my partner was doing a Georgetown virtual program. And so it kind of just like worked out. We ended up graduating in the same year. So he got to walk at Georgetown. And I, you know, obviously you're about to walk, Juna, for Hugsy. So yeah, so it was an incredible experience because we ended up traveling almost every single weekend to nearby states and sightseeing. And you know, like at the time, oldest was gonna be going into first grade, so it was kind of my way of also embarking in education journey with my son together. And yeah, we went to, you know, for example, New Hampshire, which he would always say, "New hamster," you know, just establishing really, really good memories.

Yeah, and what better place to be than Harvard Square and Cambridge and MIT? Like, there's so many things going on all the time. I see kids all the time and, you know, my son actually went to Harvard College, so I visited him all 4 years. And before that, I was involved with the Harvard Medical School for the past 10 years now. So I've been going up for years and now I'm gonna go into the same graduation ceremony that my son did. Oh my gosh. 4 years ago. I know, I, I, 'cause you know, Harvard is like, they have every, every single school, as you know, in the same yard graduating at the same time. And then you have your little graduations, um, afterwards, but it's the same one, which is when I went to see his graduation, I thought it was just the most unique and interesting graduation I've ever seen. 'Cause they have that civil servant guy. Yeah. I mean, it's just so interesting. It's so historical. I'd never seen anything like it. So we're very excited for that. Oh, thank you. But yeah, congratulations. So when you were at Hugsy, when did you come up with Mind, Brain, Emotion? Because that's the, that's what I saw you on CNBC making it. I think most, I think a lot of entrepreneurs watch that show or would-be entrepreneurs. So if you're listening and you haven't watched that, it's a great show to watch. Like, I loved your story. I also loved, um, Solidcore. Do you know the Solidcore founder? Like a Pilates studio. I've been going to Solidcore every single day for the last 3 weeks. Anyway, that's a good one to watch too. She's like a single woman founder, but I loved your story and I was so excited that you went to Huxley. So yeah, that you went to the same program as I did. Absolutely. Yeah. So tell us how that came about. And you were at the Innovation Lab too, right? Because I participated in the Innovation Lab as well.

Yeah. Yeah. So it really came out of a class project, believe it or not. Which class? Building a Democratic School workshop by Dr. Linda Nathan. Oh, okay. You know, traditionally that one is really for school leaders, um, and that school leadership superintendent sort of track. But for some reason, something about the description of this, um, class and, you know, highly reviewed, usually, I mean, you have to write an essay to apply to get in and it's super intimate and small. Yes. That I was like, I, you know, I really wanna know how, how it works and learn and You know, that—

yeah, that's the thing, right? People don't even realize when you first get there, a lot of classes you have to apply for. Yeah. The ones that are in demand. Yeah. And you may not get it. I know, right? But that was the class where people built like little models of schools and stuff.

They built models of schools. I remember. Yeah. And I— my idea really started as a parent school, a community center for parents. Oh, interesting.

Yeah. We're like on the same wavelength because I started calling my project Parenting 3.0 or like Parenting Update. Yeah. So I love this. This is amazing. Yeah. Because it comes— you co-learn, right?

Yeah. That's so funny. And at the time, um, it was called Parenting by Science. And I ended up also taking an HBS class called Design Thinking. And there I met a great friend who was a part-timer, and we just connected. And so we decided to apply to the Harvard Innovation Lab together with Parenting by Science and ended up getting in. And that's sort of how it started. And I think, you know, how— where it shifted to the card decks was when, you know, we were going to do this community thing, but, you know, being the part-timer and she had, you know, many of her other interests too, so she ended up backing out and saying, you know, I don't wanna be the bottleneck. I don't wanna pull you back. I think, you know, you proceed and go forward. Cuz she couldn't make some of the meetings. And I was like, okay, like, so she's still been so supportive. And so that was when I just started morphing, having more freedom and thinking, well, you know, having say a brick and mortar school or even just having a huge curriculum might be really, you know, how doable is it for parents knowing that I'm a busy parent as well, right? And so I started researching, and it was still also in that Building a Democratic School workshop where we played a card game, and that was where the light bulb went off, and I thought, "Oh, wait a minute, you know, this is like speed dating, but this is so like, it's penetrating conversations, and it really opens people up because it's so fun," that I decided to prototype something with cards. And it was also from all the road trips that I was taking over the weekend with the kids where we used to play cards in the color, right? And that really just came together. Fantastic.

I love it. And for those who don't know, HBS is Harvard Business School. So as a Harvard student, we, we're allowed to cross-register and obviously you have to, again, apply for these classes and sometimes you get in. And then you said Harvard Innovation Lab, that is the entrepreneurship lab where it's like an accelerator for all Harvard students. So that's what you're talking about. And so you came up with this card idea, which I love because it's like portable. It's so different from a brick-and-mortar school, right? And I guess you can almost reach more people in this way. Exactly, yeah.

And at the time through my research, I realized any, you know, all these like social-emotional human skills resources were really modern, up-to-date, or even like engagingly fun or appealing to the actual users. And for those that are evidence-based, they're, really situated in private school settings where, you know, you have train the trainer, you have facilitator resources to afford that. So I really wanted to distill this information, and especially as someone, as the first person in my family to graduate college, I wanted to bring it, yeah, in a way so that the average Joe or average Jenny like me could really consume, digest, and apply in their daily setting.

Thanks. I love it. And those beautiful cards behind you. Now you have so many different decks, but you started with one deck.

I started with one deck, the 52 Essential Conversations, which ended up getting featured in a Hugsy article. And then somehow the next day it got picked up by the Harvard Gazette. So imagine getting the Harvard Gazette email. It really just features 3 top stories with some sprinkles of others. Mine was one of the 3 top story during, at that on that day and it was just like, it just to the moon.

Yeah. That is awesome. So let's go in the next 5, 10 minutes that we have left. Let's go into like the entrepreneurship part of it. How did you, you got this idea, you probably tested it, right? Oh yeah. With your primary market research and like you tested it with people and made sure it works and all that stuff. And then you decide to print it. So when you go into printing, like you probably had to print a ton of it because you, you know, you can't just print like 10. Or maybe you can, but it's very expensive. So walk us through that whole process and how, you know, what did you invest in it? How did you recoup that? And I know you did a Kickstarter, so maybe you could talk to us a little bit about that. And then eventually the story that got you onto CNBC for Amazon, because you made over $1 million, right? Just selling these cards on Amazon. So maybe you can walk us through that amazing journey.

Sure. Again, it was very iterative. I certainly did a lot of field testing. This will be Engaging in parents and their kids, and I would literally go into their natural setting and film them and shadow them to see how they played the cards. It would be talking to anybody I know, professors, peers about my idea and getting some feedback. I also went into the Boston Public Schools and, um, in the morning, whether it's Title I schools and other schools and working with the teachers and implementing the cards and then getting feedback forms back from students to really understand, you know, what's working, what's not, what they like, what could be better. So yeah, so lots of—

so how many months and like how many people, like how many students did you try with? Like, did you just keep calling people and just cold calling or were they contacts?

One amazing thing with being at Harvard Graduate School of Education is you have a lot of warm contacts. So I had some amazing professors who introduced me into the public school system. So I was able to go to a local middle school and then an elementary school. So there were, you know, the students there. And then also some of my peers had children themselves, right? So that's a great start. And then my kids went to Cambridge Montessori School. And so I also tested it there in the Montessori school setting, um, with trained teachers and head teachers and teacher who taught other Montessori school teachers.

And this was before AI, so you're like filling them, taking notes yourself.

You had to do it the hard way, right?

You're distilling the information yourself. So you're taking all this qualitative information and just making it quantitative in your head or separating it out or iterating, like changing every time you got feedback.

Exactly. Changing every time. Lots of quality, qualitative synthesizing, you know, what actually made sense thematically. And to answer your question about the timeframe, I mean, this all happened very, very quickly. It was a class project for a spring semester course. Then it dawned on me, just like Etsy, I didn't know Kickstarter actually. I didn't even know it existed. And somehow I might have— somebody told me or I came across some article that I was like, oh, there's such thing as crowdfunding. And so, you know, to answer your question about purchasing, um, you know, volume, I didn't purchase because I wasn't sure if it was just a class passion project. Or it was legitimately a product. So that was my intention of why using Kickstarter, not only to fund it so I can volume buy, right, a number of decks, but also to make sure after I buy them, I actually have the customers to ship them to and to get that. So you— exactly. I used it as a testing platform as well. And you know, it's so funny because I launched the Kickstarter. It's a 30-day Kickstarter. 30 days before our graduation, and it ended the day of the Harvard graduation. Yeah. Wow, you're so smart. You're a great marketer. I mean, honestly, right? You have to get it in before you graduate in some ways, right?

Okay, so you got, you got all of the classmates and everything to share it and all that. So did, did you make your goal?

What was your goal? Yeah, I did. I forget. I think my goal was like 25 $100 and I ended up doing over like $10,000. 4 times that. That's awesome.

Yeah. They say always like go low on Kickstarter so that you go over.

Exactly. Yes. Yes. That is the approach.

But was it all people you knew or was it really just organic traffic or did you take out ads and tell people about it?

What did you do? Yeah. You know, it's so funny because I really would encourage people to look into Kickstarter because one thing that surprised me is that it's not just domestic funders, and these are early adopters who are interested. It was really Kickstarter that helped me to build a global footprint because organically, you know, I think some of the backers on Kickstarter, you know, people who fund your project, they are just intrinsically interested in new technology or methods of, you know, learning, doing things, and they are highly supportive as well. So that really helped. But certainly I was guerrilla style, relied on grassroots, you know, word of the mouth. It was quite stressful and busy during those 30 days.

Did you do videos of yourself talking about it basically and show videos of people using it? Is that what you mean? Yeah, I did.

I did. So I created a video unboxing the cards, the prototype, and I also, at the time I was involved with the media at Hugsy, and so I had already done some videos for them. And there's, you know, it's so funny, in around January we had sort of like a fellowship thing. And so we did just merely like a 30-second video about something you're passionate in. But at that time, I got into the Harvard Innovation Lab. I was, you know, gonna do the Parenting by Science, but then wasn't sure if that was it. And I didn't have a product or anything. And so I literally just did a 30-second Um, almost like nothingness, but it applies to everything. So I used that also in the Kickstarter. Bro, I loved it.

I love it. I would love to see it. And so you have to like come up with like, I'm just doing the math really quick, like 400 decks after you sold over 10,000, I guess. And how did you do that? Did you know who your manufacturer was going to be? Did you have that all laid out or did you just scramble to get that all together?

No, I think, you know, while you, you're kind of building this airplane in midair, right? As it's sort of flying. So very much I had already started doing some research, some prototyping, understanding quality assurance. And so by the time it closed, I had a sense of like what I was gonna do because in order to build your Kickstarter goal, you kind of need to know your financials and how much it would cost.

And now all of your business sense, does it come before your MBA or after? Because it sounds like you have a lot of really good handle on business.

Honestly, for me, it's— I love the joy of just tinkering and seeing something come true and really persuading people. And that is almost like embedded in my DNA where ever since I was little, I sold, you know, handmade bracelets and necklace with my broken English on the elementary school playground. I learned how to crochet and I ended up just like selling this really ugly looking non-professional blanket door-to-door, and it's, I don't know what drives me, but it's just really fun. You know, it's really fun convincing people to buy into your idea or product. So I've always done that. I had my own business in college. I certainly, to answer your question, yeah, would say that MBA maybe formalized some things and gave you the language, the jargon, and the professionalism, but you know, uh, for those of you listening, you, you just don't know until you actually do it and doing it is the best way of learning.

Yeah. So MIT is learn by doing, which I really resonated with. And these entrepreneurship classes, they, we really actually did the steps, like taking out ads and all of those things. Like that was the deliverable for the class. So that was really helpful for me cuz I, I tend to think of a lot about stuff, but then I don't really do the steps, you know?

Yeah. It's incredibly intimidating. And I think for us being so cerebral, We tend to analyze and overanalyze all the scenarios and things, right? So sometimes I just say yes to things not knowing what's going to happen, and then you kind of have to deliver on it, and that forces you to take action.

So now, how long has Mind, Brain, Emotion cards been in business?

Yeah, I, you know, I was just thinking back about to, you know, have this chat with you because I graduated in 2018 from Harvard, and that was when it was launched. Wow. So it's— yeah. 7 years.

You also got your MBA between that.

MBA was before Harvard. Oh, okay. So it was interesting because I was one of the youngest ones doing my MBA. And then after Harvard, I ended up continuing for a PhD, going back to where we lived in UC Irvine because I wanted to continue producing evidence-based resources and what best way to actually, you know, learn. Amazing.

So are you done with school now? I don't know what to do or what else to do, but I, I'm done after this degree. Like I got my MD and my master's in education. I'm done. Yeah, you've done so much. Sometimes I reflect back and I think, what the hell was I doing? Cuz you know, I'm much older, like you see, but you know, I realized I did get what I wanted out of it, which was like this hands-on learning with entrepreneurship and also learning about AI. And it was the perfect time to go because this year was really the no-code breakthrough. And I'm not a computer scientist. Transperson, so really learned how to, you know, vibe code, kind of just talking to AI and all that stuff. And I could have learned it probably on YouTube or Coursera or whatever, but you know, there is a difference. You know, you hear a lot, you're in the milieu, like you're with people who are talking about it. So, and it was also that confidence builder knowing that like at MIT and Harvard, this is what they're using. So that really helps a lot, right? Yeah, absolutely.

You have to sort of be like in it and feel the culture and the vibe. And you know, I, my mind were just like zapped every single day and I have these surreal moments of like, I can't believe I'm here, you know, to really savor that. So you just can't beat that with the Crusera. I'm excited for you.

So are you gonna continue with this business? I see on your website, which we'll have you tell everybody where they can find this and that everybody should go out and buy these right now. But I see these awesome articles, like on Forbes, you're talking about, oh, Elon Musk could use these tools. Like you're on CNBC and all of these, um, news outlets. Do you have an agent or do you cold outreach to the news outlets or do they find you? I bet it's a combination of all three.

Yeah. Yeah. I very much do the legwork pitching to a reporter. For a brief moment, I did look into like someone to help me with my social media. And also looking into PR. And I think, you know, organically the CNBC just so happened to be looking for more profiling people and just randomly like pitched and she was interested and it was just, I think it was a snowballing effect. So she ended up profiling me, writing the article, and somehow the article did so well that it was trending number 1 on Apple News that I was getting, I was getting DMs or emails from like old B-school or just like random friends who I hadn't talked to and they're like, hey, you were on my Google, like, you know, Android, whatever. You were on my Apple News, you know, they were showing me screenshots. I was like, whoa, what's happening? You know? And, and so from there, you know, Entrepreneur, they were interested, so they did a profile on me and it just kind of like started just scaling up from there. But interestingly, Yeah, Forbes. The Elon Musk piece was actually written by someone who was, who I gave Get Speak Talks at this Harvard class, and she really fell in love with it. And she's a contributing writer for Forbes and Harvard Business Review. And so we ended up connecting and then she ended up doing an article, you know, that the men— the one you mentioned.

Wait, was she a Harvard grad, School of Education?

Um, no, she was in the ALD, the much, much seasoned leadership development. It's a huge, like, year-long residential program for former CEOs and, you know, those who—

Oh yes. The Harvard Leadership. Yes. I know that program. Yeah. Yes. They invite people to do the year. Yeah. I know which one you're talking about. Also, you know, you always say like somehow I ended up, but I think it has something to do with you, Jenny. I did realize that as I was saying, but you know, honestly, I think, I think you're an excellent speaker. I think, I don't know, you're so personable and your, your kindness just comes out. As you speak. So I think your openness and your ability to speak and communicate all of this, I think that's what's getting you all this press. Thank you so much. One last question on Amazon. We had this sort of informal conversation before, if you're willing to share with our listeners, like, how did you get to that $1 million revenue? Is it you had to take out ads and things like that, right? So it's not like you just throw something out there.

No, no, especially this day and age, as I mentioned, Amazon is more and more shifting into a pay-to-play model. And I just have to say when, so this Kickstarter ended in May 2018 and I, yes, I did start by slapping on my product on Amazon around June-ish, June or July. And that's because when I was doing Etsy, I started experimenting also with putting my stuff on Amazon. So I already kind of had a base of understanding at least how to create a listing, you know. All that just basic stuff. So that's what I did. And I would say the Harvard Gazette, right, that feature really generated a whole lot of traffic on both my website, Amazon, even like at the Harvard Bookstore, they were reached out to ask about the products. And so I think that gave me a bit of a boost, but certainly over the years, I really, you have to, you, you would need to dive into some research around how to build a good listing, your keywords, right? And you absolutely need to know how to put out an ad, you know, what sells and what do people really look for, you know, those technical things. And so that's what I did over the years to really understand how to surface your listing to essentially page 1, which is the most trafficked area when people do a search.

Wow. So you learned this yourself? Yes. Awesome. I love it. I love it. And I want to have another conversation with you where we go through all those steps. That sounds amazing. But I know there's like an art and a science to maybe more science, more data-driven and the ability to get your product to come up on Amazon. It takes real dollars. Like you have to commit to some ad spending in order to get the sales. Definitely. And I think Etsy's the same now too, right?

You know, I'm not familiar with that. I didn't do any ad spend at the time for Etsy, but I'm I'm pretty sure it's similar now.

And if somebody was starting out with a product now, would you recommend that they go on Kickstarter and then do Amazon, or would you stop? Yeah, you know, I— or would you just go on your own website and try to sell? Yeah, yeah. Do you have to go on Amazon, or is your product just good for Amazon?

I actually wrote an article on CNBC all about this and the factors you need to—

I love it. We'll put a link over there.

Uh, the factors you need to think about to evaluate which platform is the best, or the combination of platforms. And that really has to do with your margins, right? And the nature of whether it's products, services, and you know, all that stuff. So maybe we'll link to the article, but certainly you, you, you, there's no one way, there's no formula. You have to understand your audience, right? And your monetization strategy.

You know, I'm gonna start some entrepreneurial courses. I teach at the Juilliard School and musicians could really use some entrepreneurial, um, skills. But I'm also like starting a passion project of teaching moms entrepreneurship, cuz I think it's such an important skill and I love moms and I wish I had started all this earlier. So I'd love to like brainstorm with you and, and have you be involved.

That would be so fun. Oh, that would be super fun.

Yeah. Yeah. I love it. So thank you for sharing all these like insider story with us.

Thanks so much for having me. This was fun.

So congratulations. Amazing. And now part B. You're gonna ask me questions. Oh my goodness. I'm sorry. This lasted a lot longer than we thought, so I can stop this recording and then we can start the next one. Jenni, thank you so much for being here. That was amazing. I had so much fun. I learned so much. Can you tell everybody where they can find you or where they can buy your cards and all that?

Or, um, you can find all my stuff on mindbrainemotion.com. I do have a ton of free resources like assessments. By age and grade. And so there are 12 decks of cards. You can also find them on Amazon. Just search for 52 Essential Something Coping Skills Conversations. And feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn and Instagram @mindbrainparenting. Mind Brain Parenting.

And we're gonna put links to all of that too. Thank you. Thank you again for your time. I love this conversation. Oh, thank you for having me. Listen to Part B when Jenny asks me questions about parenting. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. Head on over to mindbodyspace.com/podcast to sign up for our email list to get the latest tips and to send us your questions. While you are there, check out our courses and products on time, brain, and stress for kids and parents. Thanks for joining us.