How to Perform Under Pressure — Rising Stars Violin Duo Hina & Fiona

I just loved performing. I hated practicing, but the second I was on stage, every single time, I just felt like it was worth it. I think I can be a version of myself that's heightened.

I think being on stage is about being raw and sharing your emotions. And I think anyone can be a performer. If you have something to say, that's enough.

Ina and Fiona are sisters. They're not only brilliant in their artistry, but also their outlook on life, work ethic, and in relation to each other. They have been playing violin together since they were tiny little kids. Since then, they've skyrocketed into the classical music world as a powerhouse violin duo, with Ina winning first prize at the Alma Oliveira International Violin Competition and Fiona making her solo debut with the New York Philharmonic when she was just 16 years old. They have just cut a new album called Dear to Us. I was privileged to have them in my classroom, and watching them mature over the years is one of the reasons why I teach. So stick around to hear about how they prep to get on stage and manage their stage presence. Hi, welcome to the MindBodySpace podcast. I'm Dr. Juna, your host. Recently, I've been working really hard on Relax to Soar Resilience System. It's an analog planner that will help you cognitively offload all of those micro habits you need to stay well. And it's based on over 10 years of experience teaching tens of thousands of people. You can head over to mindbodyspace.com/store, check it out to get you started on your biggest goals and even your smallest goals. Hello.

Thank you so much for having us.

It's so great to see you both. I don't think I've ever seen you both together. Oh, I Oh, really?

Yeah, that's crazy.

No, because Ina took my class in '24, right?

No, must have been '22. '22.

Yeah, that's when you guys were in high school.

Oh my God. I'm so old.

Oh my God.

It's been 4 years.

No, you're not old.

Wow.

And Fiona, you were in my class in '24. It's been a minute. Thank you, Ina, for referring Fiona to my class.

Of course. Of course. A lot to recommend.

It was such a pleasure having both of you. You guys are awesome personalities and fun to be around.

Aw.

You guys are so close. You practice together. You perform together. Now You recorded an album together, which we're gonna get to, but you're very different personalities. And I just really enjoyed getting to know both of you separately like that. You know, I remember you meditating, lying down, really getting into it.

It was so funny. Finding my zen. Finding my zen.

I can't imagine that.

Well, that class was particularly funny, right? Yeah, we had a very—

we had such a funny class.

It was kind of rowdy.

Yeah, it was super rowdy. It was a riot. It was a riot, which is maybe like the opposite of what we should have been for Signs of Resilience. But I think we brought out a lot of different personalities in the class. It was a lot of fun. Well, because we had had masks on, remember?

Yeah.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

The masks, and we turned into a different person with the mask.

Yes.

And then we had a bunch of funny kids in the class.

So many distinct personalities.

We had this big giant classroom that year. I brought in all these mats. They would just lie around the room.

Yes, exactly.

We'd have like this thing that we would listen to as well.

Yeah, we had that too.

Yeah.

You mean the Muse?

The Muse.

Yeah, we tried doing the brain EEG Muse with you guys.

Yeah.

And then when Fiona came, we were in the smaller room and we had a smaller class, which was great. And you It was so funny because I remember when we would do fun games and I had you guys throwing a hacky sack around. I can't remember why.

We didn't get to throw a hacky sack.

No, but you guys got to nap on something.

Oh, you got to nap. You got to nap.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll find that. I'll find that.

And you, Fiona, when you got that ball in her hand, she was like whipping that thing around the room. I was so scared. I think it was like 100 miles an hour, her pitch. I would not have guessed that you were so athletic. You were so competitive, Fiona.

It was so funny. She is a little competitive.

It comes out sometimes. It comes out sometimes. It comes out.

You guys started playing violin when? 0 years old or 1? As soon as I could.

In the womb. No, I didn't dance.

Did they play music for you in the womb?

I was maybe actually, because my mother was a ballerina.

Possibly.

Probably if she ever went to the ballet or something while she was pregnant, then yeah, maybe. But yeah, I started the violin at 3, and it was mainly because she had put me in ballet like most mothers do for their daughters. And pretty quickly—

Me, I'm guilty.

Exactly, exactly. Pretty quickly she realized this is really not gonna happen. I have no talent. I'm way too clumsy. I don't have the right feet for it. So she's like, this is, this is hard to watch for me because she was a professional ballerina. So she's like, this is, this for me is tough. Like my lineage can't be doing this. I'm going to pull her out of this real quick. And then, so then she put me in violin, and that seemed to have stuck better. So, or I showed more promise. So I guess she didn't know about music, so maybe I flew under the radar a little bit. But also she wanted me to be in something that had longevity. I think she felt that with dance, you felt the limitations of what you can do as you age. It's not like, it's not a linear relationship. At a certain point, you can't dance at the same capacity that you could. That kind of attracted her about music was that you could go on for a really, really long time. And it's something that you do have a positive relationship with age. It— you get wiser, you understand things more, and your music does develop in that linear way.

And evolve, right? Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Oh, that's really smart. Yeah.

Yeah. So that's kind of something she thought. She was like, she's bad at this, but also the plus side is maybe it's something that she can stick with for a longer time. And that's not something— she's not gonna hit a wall.

I doubt you were bad for some reason, but okay.

I actually don't doubt it at all. I'm still one of the clumsiest people. I have— I wake up every day with a mysterious bruise, so it's like, I don't think— yeah, I bruise really easily too, so I don't think it would have been for me. But Fifi continued ballet for, I think, until she was 8, so she showed a lot more potential, a lot more—

Yeah, I enjoyed it.

The feet.

The feet, yeah.

The feet. But I also had like the arches.

Yeah.

It was other things that I was like not bad at, but the arch, she was always saying I had banana feet, which is not good apparently.

Right, right, right.

So then Fiona, why did your mom pick the violin for you, or did you pick it?

Yeah, I think main thing was like I also started violin when I was 3. And so at that point, Ina was about 5, I think. You know, at that age, like, with siblings and sisters, she was my role model, past tense, by the way.

I was just being super cute.

I just really wanted to do, like, everything. I always wanted to do, like, everything with her. And that's essentially why I started, actually. And we started with the Suzuki Method, which comes with, like, each book comes with a second part for, like, a second violin. And so that's how we started playing duos as well. And it was just really fun. And it started off like that. Then eventually, I really did feel a connection with it and felt like I've kind of found my voice within it, and there's stuff that I want to say through music. So I was lucky to find it that way.

You're welcome. But it was like—

Thank you.

I remember she— I knew she'd be good because she'd be advancing through the books quicker than I was. And I was like, oh my God, she's catching up. Like, if I was on book 4 and she was on book 1, I was like, oh my God, why is she already on book 2, book 3? She's going at a fast pace here. And I always felt like I was kind of the guinea pig because my parents weren't musical. So all the teachers and stuff like that, they tested through me. So she got the fast track. She was advancing at a very rapid pace that I definitely Wow.

So you had the same teachers for a long time then?

We, yeah, honestly, all until college, we were basically with the same teachers, which is crazy because I feel like we've grown into such different artists. But, but we were, we had essentially the same education.

Yeah. Except for the beginning, like we shopped around with me, which is why I say that you got the fast track because we were shopping around for different teachers.

So. Yeah. And she probably got to watch your lessons. I remember holding my daughter in my arms and she would watch my son Max play cello. So she was napping in my arms because we did the Suzuki thing too. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Fiona, you You probably heard her playing violin, right?

Yeah, exactly.

So you guys always had company because that's one of the things that are hard about classical music. A lot of times you have to practice on your own.

Yeah.

So it was like good and bad, I'm sure.

Yeah, but it helps when you have somebody, again, who's doing well behind you and you're like, oh, maybe I got to check myself a little bit. Like, it doesn't hurt for sure.

Oh, OK. So there's a little bit of competition in there, but there's also a lot of camaraderie, right? Do you ever play solo?

Yeah, we're separate individual solo. We've signed on with a management for that, but also we come on together. And I think people really enjoy seeing that dynamic between us, the two of us. Also, the managers thought that that would be more attractive, and so they also want to do things with us together. But it's like our idea of a duo is not that we are sticking together and are always together. What we want is to be individual people, and which is why we want to continue doing our own solo careers, and then we come together. But it's also more interesting. I think we don't want to be carbon copies and twins of each other, and I think our duo is more interesting because we're so different. Yeah.

And so when did you realize that you wanted to be professional?

That's a difficult question. I think when I was younger, I just loved performing. Like, I hated practicing. It was like the bane of my existence. But the second I was on stage, every single time, I just felt like it was worth it. Everything that I had done until then was worth it, and that I just wanted to do it again and then again, again, again. So I think I fell in love first with performing. You know, a career in music is so, so difficult, and you never know what kind of path it's gonna go. And so I think I had a lot of uncertainty around that and if I could really do it. And also COVID happened at a very kind of stepping stone time in my life, I think. So then everything halted. It was just seeming like a very unsure thing for me. And so I— that's why I wanted to go— I wanted to pursue education. I wanted to go to Columbia. I wanted to go to college and see what that could bring me. And then just right around that time is when I wanted to give myself a final kind of push for violin and see if I could do it. And so I challenged myself to do a competition, and I was lucky enough that the circumstances, the stars aligned. I won that, and that gave me 3 years of management. And so then immediately I was thrust into performing. I always wanted to do it, Mm-hmm. And that gave me the confidence, but also just the resources, because immediately I had gigs lined up. And so then that's when I just fully committed to it. But also I wanted to finish my school, 'cause it was still my first year of college. I think even now, every concert that I do, the feeling that I'm left with after being on stage is one that I just, I want that time and time and time and again. I wanna be on stage. And so that's what I think, it beats any other feeling that I get from life. It's just my favorite thing to do. So. That's so cool.

Interesting. So you love that surge of energy and the adrenaline and going on stage?

Absolutely. I think I can be a version of myself that's heightened, or I can just pick my favorite things about myself and put that out on stage. And you kind of have to do that because in practice you're so self-critical, or you have to be, right? But then, like, immediately you have to have a mindset switch when you're performing or when you're on stage. You have to believe that you're the best, that what your interpretation of the piece is, is the best, and that you're fully convicted with that. And so you need to have a shift in your mind from practicing. You're like, okay, like, I suck. This is terrible. I have to put a million more hours in this. And then suddenly when you're on stage, you have to be like, wait, no, nobody's done it like me. Like you have to kind of trick yourself into thinking that. And I think that's why practicing is so worth it because you can't feel that way if you haven't gone through the steps, if you haven't practiced, if you don't feel ready, you can't get to that state of confidence. And, and that's when I think the fun really begins is when you feel that. And so I keep chasing how that feels, I think.

Very cool. And I wanna get back to that whole mindset shift thing.

Yeah.

And what about you, Fiona? When did you decide?

I know that when I knew you in high school, you definitely wanted Yeah, it's hard to pinpoint like a specific moment where like I realized something, but I think for me it was like just always something that I knew for certain was that I absolutely love music and I definitely felt a connection to it. And that was something that I always knew that I wanted to keep in my life, that that was very special. I always felt like I had maybe a voice in my music, something like that. Yeah, I just like, I felt a connection. And so the idea was more that I wanna keep doing it. And then we were lucky enough to get signed. I think it was in my senior year of high school. So—

Congrats. And so who are you signed with? Who's your management?

We're with Bella Bella Arts.

What would be your recommendation? I know you guys did competitions and, well, you won, you know, you said you won the competition and you can tell us a little more about that. Maybe you could give us a little, both of you, some tips on how to get management if you're a young musician or how that happens.

Well, it happens in various different ways. I think for us, We had somebody who knew a lot of the managers and who was artistic director at a lot of festivals, and he had seen us perform a while ago when we were a lot younger. I'd say maybe, maybe 4 or 5 years ago, and had his eye on us. He would occasionally give us— he would throw us a couple gigs here and there. He let me play Sibelius Concerto with an orchestra at a huge festival once, and he also invited my sister to Festival Napa Valley. He had just been throwing us in some of the events that he planned. And I think because he has a network, he was able to invite managers to that. And then we— there was one time where I think we had— we put on a recital at National Sawdust in Brooklyn, and he had invited a bunch of managers and also Jeffrey from The Violin Channel, who now we know and love, but just a bunch of people who are in the music scene. And it was a presentation of us as a duo and us as individuals. And I think somebody from the record label at Pentatonix was also there. And so we did this presentation of us of sorts and then wanted to see what the response was. Arabella Arts happened to be there. They seemed interested in us. Pentatonix also was interested. And so then that's kind of how that kind of transpired. But it was a long kind of road of just showing your faces at things. And any opportunity that you have, you try to grab that where you can show who you are, show your music. And we definitely had to step up because this person, his name is Charles Letourneau, he's really, really well connected and he really saw something in us. He kind of was like, He's the first person who was like, you guys should do a duo. Like, you guys need to do something with this. And he kind of really believed in it, and he had the resources to kind of squeeze us in different places. That was really, really helpful.

Amazing. And also the events that he invited us to before that one recital in Brooklyn, I feel like those all helped us build experience as well. It was something that built over time.

Yeah. I think to answer your question more directly, I think try to find something about your art that makes it unique from somebody else. Whenever we do our recitals or something, we want to show our personalities. we want to connect with the audience in kind of a face-to-face way. I also find that it unnerves me. It kind of, like, calms me down a little bit when I can talk to an audience, show who I am as a person, and then also talk about the pieces and my process around it. And to have that, a little bit of that connection beforehand, I almost feel like the audience is on my side. We're in this together. I can't wait to have a moment with them.

Mm-hmm.

I think the hardest thing is when you're only playing the violin, it's very hard in a very short amount of time to show who you are. And so So you want to maximize how you can present yourself. And so I think having something to say before you perform or something is a good way to do that.

I love that. And do you feel the same way, Fiona?

I totally second that. I would say, especially because I think so much of our musical education growing up is focused on the playing itself, and we get so focused on that, and that's a great thing. But I would think also that from my experience, And I was definitely someone who did not like talking to an audience before I played. And this was like really something, it was a burden for me because I would say I was quite a shy person, especially when I was younger. Talking in front of people was just really not my thing. But I think now that's something I do enjoy as well because it does connect you with your audience.

You've gotten so much better at it too. You've gotten so, so much better.

Yeah, I think, but it comes from within. Thank you.

Oh wait, you guys do this?

She's being so nice to me.

Who does that? We can do everything.

Hailey Bieber, right?

Everyone. But yeah, I think it's something that I genuinely feel from my heart that I want to do now when I perform is I really do want to connect with my audience. And actually a part of that is talking to them. And then once you kind of break the ice a little bit, then you also feel more comfortable sharing yourself through your music. And so, yeah.

I love that because a lot of times classical concerts, you go and they just play and you don't really speak. And I love that you guys are speaking. I think that's really important as well. And I think for performance, I've been around enough of you guys. I'm not a musician, as you know, but I know that you have to really focus before you go on stage. So you're not coming in and talking to people in the room before you go on stage. You're talking about talking to them while you're on stage about the piece you're going to play, maybe your connection to the piece. And then maybe you talk to them afterwards and mingle, right?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think especially if you're playing a work that's not common or that's not very much in the repertoire, Like, people who aren't musicians or who aren't deep into it like we are don't know. They just don't know. And I think sometimes you can just help them out by giving something, giving them a couple things to keep their ear out for, or just something to attach themselves to, which is really, really helpful. And I think that's the feedback I get a lot from audience members is that they really appreciate being directed a little bit in a sense. And so you don't want to, like, enforce your opinion too much, but also just to guide them a little bit, especially if it's something that's unfamiliar. I think it helps people interpret the piece in a certain way as well.

Fantastic. What about you, Fiona? Do you have anything to say about that? to pieces or guiding the audience in some way?

I think it's definitely important as well because, like Juna said, if people are not musicians, which most of your audience isn't, it's nice to provide a sort of blueprint or some expectation of what they're about to listen to so that they can connect to it more in some way. Otherwise, they don't know what they're getting into. And then, yeah, it's just all about connecting more to your performance.

There is this guy, Richard Kogan. He is a doctor. I know him because I rented his apartment in New York City. And he had a grand piano in his room in this one-bedroom apartment. gigantic piano.

Taking up all the space.

Yes. Him and his wife and 2 little kids and this giant piano. So we're like, oh, he plays piano. One day he invited us to the Harvard Club. He comes out and he starts playing Gershwin.

Yeah.

But he did this thing where he talked about each piece.

Right.

And what Gershwin was thinking.

Yeah.

Like, what part of life he was in when he wrote this. And it was like theater almost.

Yeah.

It was amazing. And then later I found out Richard Kogan, my landlord, had been roommates with Yo-Yo Ma at Harvard. They had a chamber group together.

As one does. As one does. It's like your As a performer, you want to give your audience an experience and something that's memorable, you know? And so how can you best do that? What's the most efficient way to do that? Obviously, you can't talk before every concert, right? When you're playing with orchestra, like, you're restricted to certain bounds. What I realized is when I was just coming out of Juilliard, I was so focused on being a good violinist and a good player. And then as I got to perform more concerts, I wanted to just be a good performer as well. Like, you just want to have a good experience on stage. You want to be your best version of yourself on stage. And now I feel like— Mm-hmm. When my sister and I are working together and we're trying to think about who we are a duo separately and everything, you want to start thinking about who you want to be as an artist when you're on stage. I'm starting to see the different steps, I guess, that you go through when you're being a performer, but you kind of have to think about many more things than just playing the right notes and playing well. So I'm realizing it's a lot more complicated than maybe my 17-year-old self, but it's fun.

It's fun. Especially since audience members, when they come to see a concert, they're not coming to check whether you're doing everything right, you know? And they don't necessarily know that either. And it's more about like the vibes that you give and what feelings they're left They're going to enjoy and take time out of their everyday life and have that as a little haven of sorts.

Yeah.

And so that's the thing that we wanna—

Yeah. They're coming to have an experience. Have that stress relief and like, they don't have to be the one on stage.

So they can just sit back. Exactly.

And relax. Like I used to say in class all the time, they're not there to criticize you.

No, absolutely.

Even though you might feel like that, part of your brain feels like that sometimes. I'm sure you guys have been in competitions and you've had judges and juries and all of that. So that part is there, but then when you're entertaining it, they're there cuz they love music, right? Exactly. And you know, classically, With classical music, there's always this concern that it's dying out. So I love that you're trying to connect with your audience. I think you should do more of that so you get more young people in and people who will be patrons of classical arts for a long time to come.

You know?

Exactly.

That's the goal. We're trying to figure out the best way to do that as well.

What do you think is the best way?

Definitely social media. So we're, we're, we're—

I follow you both on social media and I watched some of your videos that you put up. It was so cute. I loved it.

On what? On Instagram?

On TikTok. Do more of those. They're so funny. Oh, but, oh, yeah.

Okay.

We haven't posted on TikTok.

We haven't synced them up yet.

We haven't synced them up.

The little skits, I thought that was so funny.

Okay, we'll keep doing that. We'll keep doing that.

All right, so what do you remember from my class?

I remember a lot of things. I remember it was a lot of teaching yourself how to be aware of your mind and the processes. And you had a very scientific approach, so I don't really remember all this super fancy terminology. I thought it was really helpful in mindfulness and being aware because that's kind of how, of course, you lead your everyday life, but also as a performer, you kind of need to have a heightened sense of that, I feel. And so the steps on how to regulate that and also how to have a good and organized routine, we talked a lot about that. I don't know if, I don't know if I've really excelled in doing that just yet, but yeah, a lot of kind of just building the right steps to create kind of a holistic and very productive, yet also a good ecosystem of brain, what you're doing, how you're planning it. It was definitely very, very helpful to just have in the back of your mind and try to lead with that.

And we even talked about what you eat before you go on stage, things like that.

Remember? Exactly. Exactly. Like bananas.

Bananas.

Bananas. Love a banana.

And Fiona, I think we did a lot more after your class. We did a lot more routines beforehand. Remember, we would talk about— I remember with you, Fiona, it was a lot about sleep.

Yeah, we talked about sleep.

Yeah, because you were getting an insanely small amount of sleep for a little while, I think, like most kids at Juilliard.

Yeah.

And then we talked a lot about dealing with your thoughts, whether you have little thoughts pop up before your performance and how to manage that. And we talked about all of the different kinds of thought patterns.

Triangle.

Yes, the book we did. Yeah, the triangle.

Did I have the triangle?

I'm pretty sure you did. It was like thoughts, emotions, and the triangle of thoughts, emotions, and behavior, and how they influence each other.

It's coming back to me.

And so now it's a new class. Now it's called Relax and Soar.

I like that. That's actually so true.

I'm going to be sending you guys these so that you can work through it, and I will definitely help you get started on it. It's going to be all the stuff you learned, but you can really manage your time. And yeah, I even brought in some recommendations from Orly Shaham.

Her, I love her.

Also gave me some tips on like how she manages to get her rehearsals in and how to list all of her performances. Kind of have that in there too.

Yes, nice.

I can't wait for you guys to try it, and I'm sure you're gonna be more organized than me. Literally, I made this for myself. I had to print out the pages so that I could actually get it published.

No, I fully need that. I think because I just graduated from college, and so I'm going to be starting a new kind of rhythm of life. And so I'm always worried about like how— what I'm going to do when I don't have classes to worry about. work around. You would think, yeah, you have more time, it's gonna be better, but no, sometimes you need that structure, kind of helps you. So I'm scared for that. So this is perfect. This is exactly what I need.

That's my whole life. We were talking about how you prepare for performance. So obviously there's no excuse in not being prepared, right? So you practice so much so that your brain is like, okay, I've practiced. Yeah, you could always do better, but you've practiced as much as you can, right?

Yeah.

So that's something you can rely on.

I prepare for my concerts, but it's like I don't have a schedule because I think for the past 3 years, like, I've been doing college as well. I just had to cram whenever I could. Sometimes it'd be until 4 in the morning. Like, I'm not recommending this for anybody. It's just what I simply had to do because I had coursework. And then also, like, I was playing 5 different concertos a year.

Mm-hmm.

Like, totally, it was terrible. It was very stressful, whatever. But that taught me so much about preparation. That told me exactly what I need to do to feel comfortable on stage. By doing that, I understood I need to do a run-through. I need to do a complete run-through of the whole thing before I go. I need to play for anybody who will listen. I learned so much just from like just throwing myself out there and then like maybe it's gonna go well, maybe it's not, but just having a goal and having to perform it in front of somebody and then seeing how that goes and then doing it again and again and again. You want to get to the point where you're not thinking about anything so that then you can just feel the music and embrace, but you can't do that if you're like, oh my God, this shift is so hard, like, oh my God, I don't know how I'm gonna— you really can't do that if that's in the back of your mind. So my preparation is more Like, what do I have to do so that I can get to that point where I can just be one with the music and not be worried about anything else? That's what the preparation is. It's not really the number of hours that you want to target, but more what's going to get you to feel that way.

Exactly.

So having to cram it maybe wasn't the healthiest, but it taught me the bare minimum what you need to do so that you can feel a certain way on stage. And you just learn more about yourself the more you perform, the more you're on stage. I understood so much more what I need to do to prepare. And sometimes it is just like ripping a couple hours and just doing something insane, but If that's what gets you to where you have to be, then that's what gets you.

So you're just saying like you got to do what you got to do.

You got to do what you got to do. It's not about the number of hours. If you can do it in one hour, like congratulations. That's not me. Yeah, I need more.

So no, but some things you might need less time, right?

Exactly. But you start to recognize those patterns when you feel ready. Exactly. But then you start to realize beforehand how much time am I going to need for this, like realistically, and then that can help you plan.

That was one of the things that Orly Shaham talked about, estimating how much she needs for each particular spot, and then if it goes wrong, then you redo it. Yeah. If you Over or underestimated your time.

Exactly.

What about you, Fiona? Do you have any practice tips? How do you know when you're ready?

I think it's very similar to Ina, but what I wanna add first of all is I wanna note, yes, it's important to, let's say, do as much as you need, but also it's super important to try to be efficient as well because I think there's a lot of bad habits that you can learn if you're not practicing with your mind. That way you learn things so much quicker. It's so much better than like mindlessly repeating things over and over and over again. That's not gonna build the muscle memory.

I'm not saying to do that.

No, exactly.

I know.

But you didn't note that, so I just wanna put that out there for—

Yeah, she's adding.

Yeah, it's super important to keep your mind there the entire time so that it's, you're actually processing everything. And then I would say, yeah, sometimes you also do need to take breaks. I know Ina doesn't like this, but you do need to take breaks because for me personally, I think that if you're learning a bunch of things in your practice and you, you're building the muscle memory, whatever, you need a little bit of time for your mind to rest so that it can digest what you learned.

Yeah.

Whatever you're doing is working. But as far as neuroscience goes, as you both know from my class, the rest and sleep supports procedural memory.

Yeah.

Yeah. So you're literally making those connections while you're resting. Or remember when I used to have you guys look at the music and then just run through it in your head mentally?

That's also really helpful.

I like that. Yeah. You guys are athletes, basically. It's the same kind of mental training. Think about that next time you might wanna take a quick nap. nap right after you learn something, or you might need to get that extra bit of sleep, you know. So think about that when you're practicing.

100%. Because of how my life was the last 4 years, like, I had to kind of—

Of course.

Sometimes, like, the break was not necessary, but at least now I know. Say somebody's like, next week you have to play Tchaikovsky, then I know what I need to do to do that. But also, now I'm, I'm not in that situation anymore. I want to create times where I can breathe, I can take a nap, I can do it in a much more I think it's just the way that my schedule was, like it wasn't an option. But at least I know now, like if I have to do something, I can get it done. And that, that also gives you reassurance and a confidence of sorts, I think.

Yes, all of it is true. And what works for you in the moment, like you said, you do have to do what you need to do. When I used to have to take call, I had to take call, you know?

Yeah.

And then you become more conscious about taking care of yourself and that actually helps you do better. But we do have to go through some of those tough times, you know?

Exactly. Wait, I was going to say something about relax to soar, something that I I realized when I started to perform more is the most important thing for me before a concert was that I'm not stressed.

Definitely.

Everything that I do on the day of the concert is I don't let myself get worked up, or at least when I'm alone. I think sometimes when we're together there's other things that can stress each other out, but when I'm alone, like, my priority is just keep your mind calm. Because assuming you've practiced and you're prepared, you know how to do all these things. The only thing that's going to stop you is your mind and like your nerves and your stress that's going to get in the the way. I try to find peace in the fact that I've prepared for this. At this point, I am ready for this. I kind of reverse psychology my way out of it and say like, if I don't feel ready, that makes no sense because I literally spent so many hours preparing for this moment. So that gives me reassurance. And the only thing I'm focused on is just staying relaxed because if you're stressed, you suddenly, you don't hear things, you don't see things clearly. That's like the biggest danger is when you feel a sense of panic or stress. And so the one thing you wanna do, you just wanna stress. Remind yourself you're ready for this, you've prepared, you've been waiting for this moment, you want to enjoy it. And so relax to soar is literally the one thing I think about before going on stage.

That's totally true. Yeah, I agree.

Sorry, I'm just gonna say one more thing. I don't want to create rituals or something before I perform because what if you can't do that ritual? Certain things always happen last minute, things are always chaotic, things are never going to go the way that you plan, but you always need to stay calm. So if If you're like, oh my God, I didn't do my ritual, I'm gonna mess up.

I don't have my little—

I don't have my like with me. I find that is, is your performance really dependent on like a squeezy ball or something? No, like you can do it at any moment of the day. This is what you've prepared for because it is a very stressful situation always. And what I've realized is like you're never gonna have as much rehearsal time as you want. You're never gonna get to do everything that you want to do. You know, sometimes you have a rehearsal the morning of with orchestra and you have to play it in the afternoon or at night. That's going to be the death of you if that's something that gets you worked up. You just have to be you know what, this is how it is. This is out of my hands at this point, and I'm just gonna let myself be calm, enjoy the fact that I get to be on stage, that I get to perform. So that's what I try to do before, if that makes sense.

Yeah, I love that insight. Anything you wanna add, Fiona?

Yeah, for me, I felt the same exact way, but there was also a time when I would get worked up over like staying calm also. And so like on the day of the concert, I would like overthink and be like, everything needs to be chill. Nothing can happen today. You know, I was so pressed on preserving my mood that it was just not good because Because then you start overthinking and it's also not realistic because you're not always going to be in a great mood. The reality is that previous days in rehearsals, whatever, you can play totally normal even if you're in a bad mood, even if you're stressed out that day. So I think embracing the fact that you don't need to feel a certain way to play well also is super important for me. Then it allows me to be much more flexible and be like, okay, I'm stressed, but that's kind of how it is. It's okay.

Flexibility.

You can still play. Yeah.

Yes. I love everything you guys are saying. I mean, that's amazing. It's my dream to hear these things. As you know, this is a mnemonic so that the A in the SOAR is adaptability.

Yes. Adaptability.

Adaptability. And that is like cognitive flexibility. So first I heard from both of you, you practice enough that you're confident, then put in your conscientious work. So that's one. You can't lie about that. And then 2, you must arrange your space so that you cannot be thrown off.

Thrown off by anything.

Yeah. Then use that adaptability of mine and change your perspective around what you have to do. I love that you have this maturity to think about it this way. And I'm sure in the moment, sometimes it goes awry, but you do eventually have to get on stage.

It's only gonna hurt you. That's what I've realized. At the end of the day, it's me that's gonna have to be on stage. It's me that's gonna have to do the consequences if I'm not in the right headspace. So whatever it is, I gotta put that aside. I just gotta lock into this. You don't have a choice, really. But yeah, no, it can be tough.

But I think at your level, both of you have performed for so many years, and I remember seeing you at Lincoln Center, I think you were doing a fundraiser for Juilliard when you were little, right?

The Centennial Gala.

Yes, the Centennial. Oh my gosh. You guys are so cute. So you've been doing this for a long time. So muscle memory definitely helps you. But then of course you go through adolescence and your brain is changing and you, you have that, what is everybody thinking of me moment. Right.

You get very conscious.

Yeah. That's totally neuroscience for development and it's appropriate. And you learn to manage it in all these different ways by being prepared. by having cognitive flexibility and then also having cognitive offloading, which means you know what's going to upset you, so you try to avoid that as much as you can.

Exactly, exactly.

Yeah.

How do you deal with when things go wrong? Nerves, mistakes, jet lag, school, travel, everything. What do you do to recover after you have that slip?

I think the first thing to do is to accept that it happened. Um, nothing good comes out of being in denial And that only wastes time. So I think accepting like where you are in that moment, it's like, okay, I made a mistake and you just have to look forward and try to decide for yourself like how you're gonna prevent that from happening again. And I would say for nerves, I would say I no longer really get nervous before stage because I think I shifted my whole perspective on like performing, just like focusing on how much I enjoy it. And because it's our happy place, so there's no reason for us to be nervous. to be nervous really. And the whole goal is to communicate with the audience and think of it as a conversation. And so in that sense, it's not something to be scared of. But I think in order to get to that point for me took a while because I think first of all, in COVID, we stopped performing in front of in-person audience, right?

Live audiences.

Live audiences. And I remember my first performance after that. That's like the first time I got performance anxiety because I suddenly felt like everyone was looking at me. me, and like, I felt like I had a fear of being seen. And so there's a lot of things that you have to like notice within yourself and address those things.

Like, why do I feel that way?

Why do I feel like I can't be vulnerable? Because I think being on stage is about being raw and sharing your emotions. You have to be comfortable with that. And I think anyone can be a performer. It's not about whether you're shy or whatever. If you have something to say, then, then that's enough to be a performer, I think.

That's beautiful.

And then when I was Yeah, I mean, that's about it. Yeah.

I mean, you're so young and you're talking about vulnerability and all of this as a stage presence, and that's very mature of you. That's incredible. And that goes for anything, even if you're speaking up in class, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or when I give lectures, I used to think I could never make a mistake, or like I had to have every single moment be very special and entertaining. But yeah, you're right. Just be authentic in a lot of ways. I really love that wisdom.

Absolutely. I totally agree with that.

Yeah.

I was gonna say, to answer your question, like mistakes happen all the time, and if you want to give yourself grace with that. But also for me, it's like I don't want it to ever happen again. So I want to think about what made that happen. What steps did I do that maybe didn't allow me to get the best result that I wanted? Just to look back on it and be like, okay, so now I know this doesn't work, right? You learn something from that. That's something you can take away. That's a positive thing. But you can also be like, what did I do maybe that did work? And so you want to balance it out always. I think when you're a performer, and I think also when you're an athlete, you constantly need to get to a certain point. You need to always be looking at yourself with such criticism. and you are always analyzing yourself. But when you're in public, that's so terrifying because you're already in a vulnerable state. And then on top of that, you don't want to be judging yourself as well. So I think knowing how far your criticism needs to go or knowing when you need to be looking, and then also knowing when you have to let it go and just, this is the way that it is. But, you know, mistakes always happen. I think even in just like how I approach mistakes that I might make in everyday life, it's like you want to immediately just apologize if it was your fault. I always try to kind of gauge that and be like, and be like, okay, this is me, this is my bad, I own up to it. Especially if I'm on the other side, the second somebody apologizes, I'm like, okay, they understand, they've taken accountability, like whatever, and it's over. Own up to that, but then also just try not to do it again and have a mental note. Yeah, I think also when you're performing, you're always dealing with so many different people, you know, people in orchestra, conductors, people from administration, and you always want to be your best self with everybody. You want it to be a positive experience for people to work with you, and I guess you don't want to cause drama, you don't want to cause issues. And so yeah, I mean, it's just you want to treat people how you want to be treated when you work So one thing from class, when you're criticizing yourself, remember to think about your brain. Yeah.

So you can think about your brain as a learning organic form, and you're gonna make mistakes, and then you learn by correcting it, like you said, and reflecting on it. But you don't have to identify with it.

Exactly. Right?

So you don't have to even identify with always being this awesome musician. Sometimes you can just look at it separately, like a third person. Like, remember Seinfeld? I used to show you that clip with Ted. George. Like, George likes this, George likes that. So he uses that third person. And that's very useful when we have to criticize ourselves, like you're saying, because that makes for good practice. You do need to be critical, right?

Yeah, 100%.

But don't identify with it. Don't merge with that.

I also think maybe in terms of being a performer, like, you want to also make sure that that is not entirely who you are. Like, you're dedicated to your craft. That's what you love doing. That's your passion.

That's—

you're honing something very creative and that's very personal to you. But also to do that for me, at least, I realized I need to also have a life outside of music. I need to, I need to read books. I need to watch movies. I need to educate myself. I need to have people around me who aren't also musicians. I think you can get kind of stuck in a bubble when you're only doing music. You wanna see reality. You wanna see what's around you.

Actually, that's the— that brings me to my speed round. What do you have on your night table?

Right now I'm reading 100 Years of Solitude by Gabriel García Márquez. I love that book. Yeah, I'm almost done. It's really, really good.

It's really, really good.

So good. I like it a lot more than Love in the Time of Cholera.

Oh, I like that one too.

Yeah.

Well, what about you, Fiona? What do you have on your night table?

I have tissues. I have a bottle of water. I also have my book Pride and Prejudice.

Nice.

Reading it very slowly, but yeah.

Very light beach summer reading, guys. Oh my gosh. Just kidding. And what's your favorite Netflix binge show?

It's tough. I mean, right now, unfortunately, I'm hooked on Love Island UK, which is so good. I'm so— it's so bad.

Yeah.

What about you, Fiona? What's yours?

I've been watching it with her for some episodes, so I'm like, I'm keeping up with it, but I don't usually watch shows so much because I just don't like having to watch something over a period of time. I'd rather watch a movie in one sitting and have the full story.

So what makes you laugh? I used to make you guys tell jokes in class, remember?

Yeah.

Give me one thing that's made you laugh this week, or you could just give me your favorite laugh source.

My favorite laugh source.

I think it's me, honestly.

You?

You're not my favorite laugh source.

Yeah, you're always—

I think I'm my favorite laugh source. I really, I crack myself up sometimes.

Oh, that's good because you're always with yourself. Yep.

Yeah, that's great.

How about you, Fiona?

I don't know.

My mom's funny. I feel like I— our mom's funny.

Oh, she's a funny ballerina.

She's funny.

Fiona?

She's very honest.

It depends. There's nothing I can really name. I'll just like find something funny during the day.

On Reels?

It could just be like in everyday life. They'll just—

I'll like, that's funny.

Or memes.

I don't know.

You know who makes me laugh these days? Brain Bun.

Love.

So cute. So this is Brain Bun. In case you want to criticize yourself, talk to Brain Bun.

Brain Bun.

And here's, uh, it's cute.

I love the cloud.

Emotion cloud. Oh, they're coming. I'm gonna get three thousand of them coming.

Oh my god! Oh my god! So exciting.

I'll have to share that with you.

I want brain buds.

Yes, I want the cloud.

Okay, and there's moon drops, which are grapes. They're like little.

Oh, so cute.

Fifi has like the positive potato.

Oh, I don't know.

I have them like literally right here. So I'm gonna get them.

Oh, oh, she's gonna get it.

Oh, that's so cool.

Really trending in France. It's like patate positive.

This one is not the potato. I can't find the potato. It's the rose version. It's It's like this. It's a rose and it says rose petite. It's saying I'm a little rose that is thinking of you.

Oh, I love it. And it's crochet. Do you guys crochet?

I kind of know how to. I got really into it like a couple years ago, but now I'm kind of off that.

It's actually really good for stress management. All right, so one last question. If you were not going to be a violinist, what would you be? What's your fantasy career in another dimension?

Either a visual artist because I like drawing and photography or a dancer in You should bring in arts on stage sometime when you're playing.

Yeah, I know. Maybe in the background, mixed media. You could have like an art that you did or something.

What about you, Ina?

My mom always says I should be like a news anchor or something because I talk a lot. And she's like, you should make a living out of something that you do so naturally. I'm actually starting a series called Who's Reading What, where I ask conductors and people who I work with, what are they currently reading?

I love that. I'm going to look out for that. Who are your teachers that you want to thank? Aside from me, of course.

Dr. Bobby, first and foremost. No, because I think the more that I perform, the more I realize you need to be able to to be aware of what's going on in your mind, 'cause that's the make it or break it at the end of the day. Sure, you can play the Prokofiev Concerto wonderful, but can you do it in the right moment when push comes to shove? When you're on that scene, you really just need to know how to control— or just not control, but to work with how you're feeling at the moment. And that's something that's so important. That's what's gonna allow you to continuously perform and let yourself be vulnerable and susceptible to the fear that it takes to be onstage.

Mm-hmm.

But otherwise, my teachers at Juilliard, for sure, Midori and Mr. Perlman, they're two very different different people, but I think they influence me in many different ways. And most recently, another new role model of mine is John Corigliano, who wrote the 2-violin concerto for The Two of Us, which we just premiered. And I got to meet him, and people always say don't meet your heroes, but I met him and he was absolutely the sweetest person and so supportive and so knowledgeable. And he just made me want to explore more of his music. And also, it just kind of lit a spark of inspiration in me just from meeting him. So we love that.

That's so cool. What about Fiona, do you have the same teachers?

Yes. Right now, I'm studying with Inge Koller in Cleveland. And so, I'd like to thank him for all that he's taught me. And, of course, from Juilliard, I'd like to thank Mr. Perlman and you for what you've taught us because I think it's really important what your class discusses, and it's something that isn't talked about enough, I think. Yeah, for sure. And it really needs to be integrated more into our musical education.

Absolutely. It's so important, especially for people who come constantly need to let themselves be on stage and stuff. And also I want to thank my sister because I learn a lot from her. It's like we have so many disagreements, but that's what pushes each other to hone our own opinions and have a better argument against each other. And so then that's when we can create something really special. So I learn a lot from her. We're so different, but that's why it's fun and that's why I think it works. So—

Well, thank you. Oh, and I also have to thank her too because, oh, I think in terms of organization, she's definitely super on top of things and very responsible. And so she keeps me in check for sure.

I love that. And I have to thank you guys. I learned so much from my students. I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't have such special people like you to talk to and learn from. It's very cool.

We appreciate that so much.

I had so much fun with you guys.

Us too.

But isn't it great to know that we're taking the stuff from your class and we keep kind of being able to learn more about it too as we explore?

Yes!

And I'm gonna get these to you so we can start another chapter in it, and you can give me feedback.

We'll keep updating.

I'm so excited. Awesome. Big hugs to both of you. It was so great to see you turning out to be such beautiful and talented young women.

Oh, thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

It was so fun talking to you.

Yes, so much fun. Get the amazing Dear to Us album at inafiona.com. Follow them On Instagram. Thank you for listening. Don't forget to hit subscribe and share and head on over to mindbodyspace.com/store to get your copy of the Relax to Source system that will put all of those microhabits of wellness into autopilot for you. Until next time, this is Dr. Juna signing off, wishing you and your loved ones wellness.