Harvard & Princeton Were Just Side Effects: How I Raised Resilient, Motivated Kids #podcast #momlife

Yes, my kids went to Harvard and Princeton. No, we did not ever think that was a possibility. We never really planned for it. We didn't have any strategies. In fact, because of our demographics, the statistics were against them. Now, is going to these top schools the end-all? No, absolutely not. I mean, you do get some unfair advantages, as in connections, and the resources there are incredible, but you can also go there and not take advantage of it. So the way my kids got there was a byproduct of just listening to them, seeing what their strengths are, and helping them to double down on those strengths and really building resiliency.

And the way I look at it, it's a long game of life. So we'll see how it all ends up. But so far, so good.

Hello there and welcome to the Mind Body Space Podcast, where we learn about the brain-body connection to help us and our families thrive. In the last episode, I spoke with Dr. Jennie Woo, creator of the 52 Skills for Emotional Intelligence cards that has made over $1 million in sales on Amazon. Jennie and I discussed her journey of being a mom and an entrepreneur. If you haven't listened to that episode, there's a lot of great tips for creative moms with an entrepreneurial bent. This is part 2, a special episode where Jennie and I flip seats and Jennie, who who is a mom of 3 kids, interviews me on how to instill work ethics, curiosity, and the importance of the concept of time in the face of constant distractions. Jenny was also curious about how both of my kids got into and succeeded at the most competitive Ivy League schools, and so she and I will go into details on how they got there. This episode is value-packed for those of you who are interested in what kind of kids get into these highly competitive schools without legacy and without being a billionaire.

So this is part 2 with Dr. Jenny Wu. I'm so excited because we did an amazing podcast. It was so interesting. She told me all about her entrepreneurship journey and now she wants to ask me questions because I'm a little bit ahead on the parenting part. So she wanted to ask me some questions and, you know, every time I have these conversations with amazing people, I always regret that we didn't have it on the podcast. I'm like, that should have been on the podcast. So we decided to just include you in our conversation. Yes, welcome.

Yes. Oh my gosh, Juna, what a treat. So thank you so much for allowing me this opportunity to be here.

I love it.

And I am going to ask you questions.

Of course. Well, anything you need.

Oh, I love that. So first of all, you know, you are an empty nester and you've parented amazingly successful children who are one, graduated from Harvard College. Right? And one is at Princeton. I am in a spot where I've got a teen who is going to be going into 9th grade, and I have rising 7th grade twins. So I'm in the weeds, in the midst, and I cannot even imagine how you manage to do the whole college application and these amazing colleges they're going to. So what's your secret? Looking back, what are some of the stuff that you thought really made a difference? Let's start with there.

Okay. Well, my secret, and I think you already have a secret, is that you're just like super into your kids. But no, but it doesn't have to be like that. Some kids go on to all these amazing schools and obviously you really don't have to go to Princeton or Harvard to be successful in your life. First of all, I didn't go to any of those schools. I went to NYU Medical School, but for undergrad I went to Rutgers. It was a state school. I graduated when I was 16 years old and went off to college. Wow. So yeah, you don't have to go to the top Ivy League schools to have an amazing life. That's number one. Number two is I was totally into my kids cuz that was the most fun thing that I've ever done in my life. I love raising kids and I think you feel the same way. We were hands-on, but you know, we, we didn't like do things for them and I didn't really have a plan. If you told me even just 10 years ago, oh, your son's gonna go to Harvard and your daughter's gonna Princeton. And he also went to Juilliard before that. So he went to Juilliard Pre-College for cello.

Mm.

So if you had told me even when he was there that he was gonna Harvard, I'd be like, I never even thought about it. Meanwhile, there were a lot of parents who already knew that there was a path. Mm-hmm. Kind of. But again, I didn't plot it out, but now looking retrospectively, I can tell you everything I learned. So the first thing is to be completely interested in what your children's strengths are.

Yeah.

So, you know, when my son was 5, he didn't tell me, oh, give me the cello. I just kind of was listening to Yo-Yo Ma, his Bach music, and I was like, this is a cool instrument. And I gave it to him because he wasn't rough and tumble kind of kid. He was kind of on the shyer side. He was very pensive. Like when I took him to a music class when he was 3 years old, he looked at the door and he was like, why? Why? And he wanted to leave. He did not wanna be running around with scarves and playing. So he was a little different. So I wanted to take him to something that he could belong to, you know? I think that if I pushed him in soccer, he would've been okay. He loved soccer, but we did soccer and cello at the same time. Mm-hmm. So I started him with cello when he was 5.

Mm-hmm.

Just 'cause I love the sound of it and I just thought it was cool and he just was really good at it. At first we didn't think anything of it for 5 years. And like year 10, he started to show he was a prodigy. Wow. He was memorizing 10 sheets of music. He would memorize concertos when he was like 9, 10.

Oh my goodness. Wow.

So it wasn't like I was like trying to make him memorize it. He would just memorize it. So I saw that he had a talent. I didn't wanna become like the stage mom kind of thing where you're pushing your kid and like, you know, making him very upset about what they're good at. So I just kind of nurtured it and I tried to find the best people for him. Mm-hmm. So when I saw that the school that he was at was an excellent school, but he was kind of outgrowing it.

Mm-hmm.

I didn't wait. I wasn't really sentimental about like having to switch him.

Mm-hmm. You know what I mean?

Yeah. I wasn't like, oh, he's had this teacher forever. Like he should stay with this teacher. It's like, no, let's find the next stage. So I think if I did one thing, it was always like, let's find something that challenges him. Mm-hmm. Let's find the next step, you know? And he did not wanna apply to Juilliard. I had to kind of push him to apply there. Like, you know, most kids when they're auditioning for Juilliard don't think that they're going to get in. It's, it's like harder to get into than Harvard. Yeah, it's not easy. But I was always like, what's— what are you gonna lose, you know? Like, just try and all this stuff. And we did have some mentorship because he did some master classes and, and people from Juilliard saw him and said, oh my gosh, he's amazing. So we did have some feedback. It wasn't like it went—

yeah, yeah.

But you know, we didn't know and it was competitive, but he got in. And it was amazing. But if I had listened to him and said, you know, there's that kind of parenting like, oh, my child's shy. He doesn't want like changes and et cetera. And he really needs to stay with his teacher who he loves and blah, blah, blah. Like that would not have served him because he was outgrowing that. Yeah. So I did push him a little bit. I just said, you can try, you know, you can try and see what happens. And I did encourage him. Like I said, you can play at that level. So, you know, there's this whole thing with comparison. Comparison is bad.

Mm-hmm.

But I think comparison is there for as a tool. Mm-hmm. So if you use comparison as a tool, like this is where these people are and I'm here, so then I need to work harder to come up. Mm-hmm. Or maybe I'm here, so maybe I need to go to a different place to get even better at what I'm doing. So comparison is good when you use it as data, as a tool for your next steps. So I said, look, see, we even went to concerts and watched kids at Juilliard and said, you can play that.

Yeah.

And so that made him think like, okay, maybe it's a possibility, you know?

Yeah.

But if I— we hadn't like investigated, we wouldn't have known. Always push them to a little, you know, or a lot next level if you see something in them.

Yeah.

You know, not to say that you shouldn't work at things that you're not good at, but I do think that when you're trying to get into these very high-level schools, you have to have what they call a spike.

Mm-hmm.

Have you ever heard of the spike?

I have briefly heard about it.

They don't want a well-rounded person.

Mm-hmm.

They want somebody who's like world-class musician, so that's your spike. Or maybe you are a fundraiser or you've done like a lot of community work and you're off the charts. Mm-hmm. So they want that one spike. Or maybe you've won all the writing competitions in your small town in Ohio or whatever it is.

Yeah.

You wanna stand out in that one something you did because they really wanna see that. I think a trait that you can actually work on is curiosity. Mm-hmm. So they wanna see that you're curious about things, cuz if you're curious enough, you'll get deeper and deeper and deeper into one topic. So you know that kid who loves dinosaurs maybe, and they know everything about dinosaurs when they're first grade or second grade, encourage that. Mm-hmm. You know?

Yeah.

So like this other guy, no, he and his brother both went to Harvard and Their thing was like beekeeping. Mm-hmm. Before it was popular. This was before everybody's doing it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because now a lot of kids like do beekeeping and things like that, but this was before that and they were really interested in it. So nurture something that they're curious about, get really, really deep into it, allow them to get deep into it and find the resources.

Yeah.

Well, because you might not find it in your regular school.

Yeah.

So that's the one thing. Similar thing with my daughter. So my daughter was, believe it or not. Some people said she was better at cello than my son was, which—

Wow.

Which I don't know. She was definitely also talented and she probably could have gone to Juilliard, but she told me she wanted to dance. Mm. So I was like, okay, so then you're gonna dance. And she did ballet. Secretly, I'm happy that it wasn't. She didn't have the feet. I didn't know about this.

Oh.

But you have to have a certain kind of feet to become really, really good fast. You can eventually break in your feet to become better because they have to go on pointy toes. But if you're born with that high arch to begin with, it gives you a huge advantage. I had no idea.

Wow.

This was something like— my son learned cello. And I don't think there's a physical advantage to learning an instrument. Maybe piano if you have longer fingers, maybe. But I did not know that ballet, you could have a physical advantage. So I'm all growth mindset. So yes, but then we found out, wow, your feet are really not good. But during mid-high school, she was trying so hard. Her feet did start to change and it started to look really good and she started to become an excellent dancer. But we didn't pursue it because a lot of kids at that age had already gone off to Russia.

Got it.

Yep. Abroad to go full in onto ballet. And this is another thing I didn't know when she started ballet. Unlike classical music where the kids usually do it as an afterschool program, ballet It's more intense time-wise. And at like 15 years old, they will move away from home to go pursue ballet.

Yeah.

So a lot of her friends did that. And I was like, no, you're not moving. And she also didn't want to. She looked up the salary of ballet. She's like, I'm not living on $15,000 a year. She loved it, but not that much.

Realistic.

So a lot of things came together for her not to become a professional dancer. To work at things, even if you're not gonna be the number one person at that thing. I would say she has an incredible work ethic in the gym, which, you know, because brain-body, I mean, the body and the brain are one. And if you can have physical activity, it will boost your brain. So that's why martial arts, gymnastics, all of those things help your brain, even sports. So for her, it was more about keeping at it even though she was not that natural. Ah, gotcha. Talent. And she did end up going to very high levels. She went to the American Ballet Theatre, ABT, for summers, which is a very competitive program. So she was with, like, top kids from all over the world. She got in herself. You know, you have to audition and all that. She worked very hard at that. She went to ballet school every single day for, like, 3 to 4 hours after school.

Wow.

She didn't have much of a social life. Most of high school. And then she also did OSR. Do you know OSR? Original Science Research. A lot of schools in this area in New York have Original Science Research where you can go and pick a topic, find a mentor. So you're like emailing people, cold emailing professors, research that you're interested in. So the first year in her high school was like all about learning how to do scientific research. So they have an awesome mentor. Mr. Garbarini. He's been doing it for, like, decades. He's awesome. And he teaches them how to read scientific papers. You know, looking back, this was one of the most important things I helped encourage because it was not easy. You know, you had to learn how to read data.

Yeah.

That's hard.

Like, she learned how to use Qualtrics. She learned how to use a lot of the tools online to understand data. And as you know, we are moving towards more and more data-driven decisions in anything, like any workplace you're gonna be using data. Even with AI, it's important that you understand data. She learned all that.

Mm-hmm.

And it was extracurricular and it was very intense. It was like the first year was all these papers, like reading it, learning how to read them. Then you had to figure out what you wanted to do over the next year or two. You would be reading other papers that you're interested in, reaching out to professors at colleges and stuff to see if they'll mentor you.

Yeah.

And then you'd have to do your own experiment or piggyback on that researcher's. And then you enter competitions. There's like regional, local, all of that, state. So you do that junior, senior year. So she ended up doing research about mindset.

Ah.

And she wrote to some of the people who did research with Carol Dweck. Uh-huh.

Yeah.

And then they allowed her to have access to the Stanford Carol Dweck's research. And it was Angela Duckworth. I can't remember the exact name of the, the research, but she was able to use their template and use it as part of her research. And she actually got like 70 kids to sign up and she did a decent number and she wrote this paper like 30 times over, like editing it. Wow. And it worked out for a year or 2 years. And I would say for my son, he had massive success very early, like at 10 years old, he was winning competitions that took us to Europe. He was playing in castles. Julliard, and he even won competitions there. For her, it didn't come easy like that, but it was a work in progress, constant grinding, and not getting all that feedback immediately, but eventually it paid off. And, you know, I think those are two different skills also, right?

Yes, definitely. Yeah, I mean, how impressive this is. And, you know, linking back to our conversation in part one, I mean, I can't help but sense, you know, you mentioned feeling regrettable that you didn't do as much entrepreneurship, but you were you were so busy and your kids were doing so much and so accomplished at an early age. So certainly, I don't know if you really had the mental space and time to be able to do that. So I want to just pause here and give you the credit. And, you know, I love this.

Well, that's, that's really nice. But actually, because my son, he would be playing in front of crowds of hundreds of people sometimes, and you'd hear a pin drop. And he's like this little kid, like 11, 12 years old. He was first soloed with an orchestra when he was about 11. So I wanted to help him calm his nervous system, and that's when I got into mind-body medicine. Ah, and that's why I went to the Benson-Henry Institute for Mind-Body Medicine at Harvard Medical School. I did ex— multilevel trainings to learn about science and neuroscience of stress management and allostatic load and all of that stuff. Yeah. So that's where it started to become a passion for me.

Yeah, I love that.

Because I didn't want to mess up my kid.

Yeah.

Which I might have anyway, but you know, I probably been worse if I hadn't done all this. So that's where my second career started.

Oh my gosh.

Because of all of that.

It's all connected. Oh, I love that.

Yes.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

So middle school and high school, what advice would you give? And certainly work ethic is one that really popped out to me, right? It sounds like it really is putting in the work. And certainly my question, and I think listeners, my relate to this is how do you instill or cultivate work ethic? And I know for some kids, like, I just— you have this drive where you just want to do more, right? You love it. But I think our brain is really trained to, to save, you know, our allostatic homeostasis is really to save energy, right? We're wired to make sure we have enough energy. So by default, I think many of us would rather not do anything, right, in some sense, especially our teens today where you'd rather play game or do you want to do something really, really hard? So that's my question, right? Instilling work ethic. And then also the other one, I actually interview for Harvard College as an alumna. So, and I have to say— Amazing. —until now, I really, really want my candidates to get in, but none has gotten an offer just yet. Hard, right? I know.

That's just the percentages, right? It's rare.

And I also wonder, you know, this concept of the spike, right? Whereas there's also another school of thought of really being the generalist, having that range, you know, like what is your thought around that? Taking college out of the equation.

Okay. For some reason, I don't think your kids are gonna have a problem with work ethic. Just because of your work ethic and what you're showing them. So obviously we're, my husband and I, we're both physicians. They've seen us work hard. So I think that is one of it. But also if you're having trouble with them having a work ethic, really talk to them about curiosity. Like once again, it's that whole unlocking of what they want to learn about, you know? And as we know, if we're curious about something, we're much more likely to learn it because dopamine is actually released when you get answers to things you're curious about. And that can actually help them learn better. So with my son, we started out with like, you know, practice 10 minutes a day. I'm like really into routines cuz I never had it growing up. Mm-hmm. And I know that understanding the brain, I know that routines are so important. So even if it was like 10, 15 minutes a day, you know, mm-hmm, understanding the compounding, mm-hmm, interest, like the compound return on investment of 10, 15 minutes a day. I don't know if they did this in your school system, but they did it in ours where they were like, show us that you read 15 minutes a day. Mm-hmm. And this is how much it adds up to. Mm-hmm. And if you see over a lifetime, like what that adds up to, it's amazing. And I know 15 minutes is not gonna cut it. Like if you're at Juilliard, people are practicing 3 to 5 hours a day, you know, doing things smartly. So if you tell them they're gonna save actual time by focusing, mm-hmm, you know, instead of doing things half-assed and like, you taking forever, if you actually put on a timer, do that Pomodoro method where you have that timer, you're gonna take a break. My son actually taught me this naturally. I'm the kind of person who just grind through, like medical school, all that, like internship grinding. But my son would just literally take breaks and lie down on the floor. Mm-hmm. And I'd be like, what are you doing? But once I learned about mind-body medicine, I realized like, wow, he's actually understanding like how much he can focus and then he actually needs a break. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. So you do much better when you take breaks, but knowing that you have that reward coming is so important. And also like whatever you're doing to find curiosity in what you're doing. So motivational factors, you could be external and say, hey, you're gonna get this. Like maybe, you know, you work up towards this, you're gonna get this prize or you're gonna, yeah, you know, do well. Or eventually, like I think most kids wanna do well and get it. Great job or like have their own business or do well, right? So that's the very far away reward, but you want something close, close also. Yeah. So you're gonna say like, oh, you can, if you really focus for 30 minutes on this timer and do the hard thing first, then you'll have more time to like play with your friends or play a video game. And believe me, this is a struggle for everyone. My son, the biggest fight we had when he was in high school was The phone. Mm. That's great. The phone usage. And I didn't even get it for my kid until they were in middle school. When I got it for him, I got him the crappiest, like he had no memory on his phone. He barely could use it. Yeah. Just, we got him like the smallest amount of memory cuz we didn't want him using it. Yeah. But of course, like he went into computers, he studied computer science and statistics at Harvard. Oh, that's funny. So like he loves computers and anything tech. Yeah. So he would get around. Whatever it was we tried to do, like block Wi-Fi, he would figure out the Wi-Fi password. He would have passwords on his phone that was like 50 numbers long. Oh, so we should never know what his phone password is. Oh my gosh. Anyway, we had a lot of fights over that. Hmm. But having said that, I would never give up teaching them about time. One of my biggest things that I teach at MindBodySpace is about time. Because we all have a finite amount of time. Yeah. And these kids realize it. And you could even show them pictures of themselves when they were young and like say, hey, look at that. Look how different you are now. Mm-hmm. Or just show them the data. Like they're a data-driven generation. Mm-hmm. You can show them like, these are how many hours you're spending on the phone and like, this is what everybody else your age is doing. Like you could just show the hours and what they're doing. And literally we're spending so much time on our phones and scrolling. And I always say like, are you going to get a PhD in scrolling? Or if you're not into school, are you gonna make money from scrolling? So there are people who do. So I would say some people like played video games all their childhood and now they're doing amazingly well cuz they make video games. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So if you're gonna be that type of entrepreneur, show something for it. Make your own game. You're an entrepreneur, Jenny, and you do all these things. If they're spending time doing a certain thing, make it into a project, right? So if they love video games, then learn how to code your own video game. Now you don't even know how to code. You can use AI to code a video game. So I think the most important thing now is to teach them how to become an entrepreneur. But for now, I think at least the next 5, 10 years, it's still gonna be good to go to school to increase your likelihood of success. It's such a great experience. Maybe find some joy in it. Like find some kind of curiosity in what you're doing. Make it better. Like if they're interested in making it shorter time, how can you make that shorter? Yeah. You can work on your focus. You can work on doing it a different way. Always giving them that extra to make it fun and give them a little reward. As you know, the reward system in the brain, like you need that instant reward. Hopefully it's something healthy. Yeah, I know. But if it's something like that, you wanna watch a show for 30 minutes, fine. You know, but you gotta get your things done first. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I think it's always like setting that far away goal. Like, do you, where do you wanna be in 5 years? Like once in a while, have that question. Yeah. Then what do you wanna get done in this year? Do you wanna have published a paper? Do you wanna have, you know, made a robot? Whatever they wanna do. Yeah. Get a black belt and then bring it down to like those little baby steps. What's your quarter gonna look like? Mm-hmm. So I would run it like a business. Mm. Like have the, have the measures, the data. Yeah. And show them. Yeah. Yeah. Or have kids wanna show you stuff. Yeah. So that's the motivator. Like, where do you wanna go? And if, you know, some kids are tough and if they're like, I don't wanna go anywhere, then first of all, always rule out lifestyle stuff. Like always mention to your pediatrician, make sure that there's nothing going on with them. You know, you could have things like sleep issues. Like if you have big tonsils and you're not sleeping well, you're snoring, you could have issues of motivation because you're not getting enough sleep. Mm, maybe you're not getting enough vitamin D. Like you're in California, but getting enough sunlight, going outside. Like some kids here in the Northeast, they don't go outside. Right. For months. Yeah. Yeah. And so always, you know, make sure it's not something physical. Make sure they're getting a good diet and all that stuff. So that could affect your mood and your motivation. And then who are they hanging out with? What's going in their brain? A lot of parents are like, privacy. You know what? No. I don't care about my kids' privacy because honestly, their brains are not meant for that until they're older.

Yeah.

So we have a much better brain for understanding the consequences of our actions. Kids have all the way into their 20s. Try to keep them away from addictive substances as long as possible because not only are you learning faster than ever in your life because you're brain is so malleable at that time, you're also learning addictive behaviors. Right. So I don't care about privacy. I wanna know what they're looking at on their phones. I wanna, you know, see what they're surfing on the internet. You can really go down a very bad rabbit hole on the internet. Yeah. If you don't have somebody watching over you. So yeah, I would not, I would say screw it. I'm not, I don't really care about your privacy. Yeah. You can tell me everything about you. I just care about your advice. Yeah. I would just recommend telling them like, your brain is much better than mine at absorbing a lot of things. You have superpowers in your brain, but you have a brain that is so addictive, right? That if you ran into the wrong things, your brain could go the wrong track. And that's why I'm here to help you. Yeah. I've had stories where people tell me about their kids, like lock the door, they're in their room, right? They're surfing the internet, like, and then they're like addicted to porn or like they're addicted to a weird, you know, internet group or all these kind of things are happening and it's Really true. Yeah. And social media, I mean, I don't know if you saw the Netflix show recently, what was it called? Scary, right? I can't remember. Oh my God. I mean, it is a lesson. And at the end, the actors are like, he just had the room closed and I thought he was fine 'cause he was in my house. Yeah. But these are real dangers now. So I would keep an eye on that. So keep them away from the phone and computers as much as you can. My son had to go to Juilliard every weekend. So sports, anything that takes your hands, like you can't be on the phone. Sports, dance classes, all of these things, you cannot have your phone in your hand.

Yeah. Yeah.

Just make them do those things.

Keep them, keep them engaged, certainly in the things that they're interested in, but engaged. Yes.

And if you see that they have a talent for that thing, cuz you started this with college admissions and like Spiked. If you see that they have a talent for something, pursue that. Right. To another level. So you have a 9th grader and then you have 7th graders. Mm-hmm. So the 9th grader, do they have a spike yet?

You know, he really loves rock climbing and he does it competitively and he's really recently gotten into volleyball and he absolutely love it. Volleyball? On the team. Yeah. So that is definitely something that he's motivated to get better.

Awesome. Yeah. Okay. So they give prizes for rock climbing?

So, you know, now it's an Olympic sport. Wow. Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah. And I think he really likes it for the cognitive element, like solving puzzles. Awesome. It's, you know, he has a six-pack and he's doing his like working, having that streak of like, I think he's doing something crazy. He had 100 push-ups a day. Now he's integrating like sit-ups in between. That's amazing. And so, let's try his system. And he's always been so good with his hands in terms of just creating things and building, like always loved origami since he was little and doing different creations coming up. And so I've been thinking— And what's a candy bomb? You know, he used an origami to build this thing. It's almost like you put candies in it and it feeds it out. It's like a paper plate.

Oh, it's like a— okay.

He called it a gummy bond to his friends. But things have gotten so busy, as you know, this day and age with kids. And so, you know, that is also the struggle, right? Having that spike. But what if you have a lot of different spikes that they're interested in dedicating the time into it? And so that kind of also goes into my other question of having that range, right? And certainly entrepreneurship is about— you have a spike, but you have to be the jack of all trades. At the same time, right? So that tension. Okay.

I would say already it sounds like he's a very interesting kid. I think that having a six-pack and getting really into rock climbing shows a focus and concentration and an extra level to him. I think that's great. I would highly pursue that if he's into that. Oh my gosh, I would just go all out. And you don't have to be the best rock climber. You can also be the rock climber who teaches or brings it into the community. Yep. So is he doing that?

You know, interestingly, my daughter is, she loves working with little kids, so that's actually something she's vocalized about. Is she the 7th grader? She's, so we're gonna look into this and, you know, in the earlier days, but the rock climbers compete in rock climbing.

Oh, okay. Both of them. Yeah. I think the 9th grader, he needs to, did he finish 9th grade? Is he rising?

Oh no, he's going, rising 9th grade.

So he needs to start thinking this summer about these things. So this is really the time to focus. Yeah. And 9th grade is not too early and 7th grade is great. So if they're both into rock climbing, that kills two birds with one stone because you could drive them to the same rock climbing place. Yeah. I would have both of them do a lot of community service around that or build some sort of entrepreneurial thing around that or like give back. You probably know this more than I do. But they really want to see that you're going to affect your community in a positive way. Yeah, absolutely.

For sure. Back in the days they did, they were the Woo Crews and they taught life skills in community centers, children's museums, and schools. It was incredibly fun. But I think now it's, you know, as my oldest going into teenagehood, you want to do age-appropriate type of things that they can really latch on to.

But I would go deep with that one spike. So like choose like rock climbing and then really go out from there. So use rock climbing as the answer if that's what he's into, and then use that to go into the community and give back, right? You know what I mean? Yeah, you have time, but you got to think about these things. Like, if he's not that into that, then find something else that he can go really deep into.

Yeah, I wonder if, you know, for some teens or maybe even parents where their goal isn't to be the top of the top, right? That in terms of the, the iconic spike of the top, right? How would you deal with that if they especially have multiple interests, or maybe they're just mediocre but interested in something?

And what is your goal? Yeah, that's a good question. What is your— so we start with the goal.

Start with the goal, right?

The goal is, I think for most parents, the goal is really to just have our children fulfill their potential and be the best they can be, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I would just like generally support whatever they're interested in, but not all over the place. Right. So eventually you choose, right? Yeah. You choose. For example, my son, when he got into Juilliard, we had to have him drop soccer altogether. Yeah. And it was terrible and we didn't like it. It was, you know, we didn't want to, but we had no choice. Like he couldn't physically be in two places at the same time. Yeah. So you have to choose at some point. And my daughter, she chose ballet and she dropped the instruments. Mm. Got it. Because she was taking lessons at Juilliard also. Yeah. Yeah. You see what I mean? I do. So eventually things fall away. So she also became class president. Mm. She was very responsible. She deserved the position. But it also was a popularity contest in a way. Yep. But like, if you're asking me like all these different things, so— My son obviously had a spike. He was Julia, cello. He won tons of competitions, prestigious ones. You know, that was like his whole persona. He also did, I told you he was interested in computer science.

Mm-hmm.

He volunteered for the school foundation to build like a database for them. Yeah. Which it sounds crazy, but it wasn't. So it was like something that you could do. Like it sounds like something you couldn't do. Like what? How did he build, like, he basically grinded, like put in all the people on the Excel sheets and like basically, you know, had a system, wrote something that they could pull up the names. Yeah. Yeah. It was impressive. I mean, yeah, he's an impressive guy. Yeah. So anyway, so he did things like that. So it wasn't just music. So he volunteered to the school foundation, he volunteered to teach younger kids computer science. Mm-hmm. You know, things like that. He won like maybe an app thing with a team a couple of times, but it wasn't like as significant as with music, let's say. So that's what I mean by spike. But he did have other things. My daughter, when you talk about somebody who's interested in a million things, my daughter. It's like, I don't want it to be like binary, but a lot of girls have a lot more interest. I don't know why. I don't know if this is true about everyone, but is this about your girl? Yeah. Okay. See, I'm telling you that I've been doing this for a while. It's like a lot of the girls have a lot of interest. So my daughter wants to do like YouTube. And then she went, you know, and I was like, no, because the privacy thing, it was kind of like, you know, I didn't really want her to have that. Mm-hmm. And, but again, if she showed a ton of talent for it and she really wanted to do it in a way, I would've supported it. So this is where the parenting comes in. Yeah. You kind of do kind of decide which one you're gonna push them to. Do you wanna have them be a YouTube star and like, you know, be open to a lot of horrible comments and like all that mental issues? Mm-hmm. Or do you want to have them go to ballet and You know, get really fit and, you know, really work hard. So I chose for her to do the ballet thing. Yeah. But it wasn't like she was begging me like, oh my God, I hate ballet. I really wanna do YouTube. Right. Then we can help them choose cuz we're also paying for all the lessons or you're driving them and all that stuff. So my daughter was interested in that. She actually became a model for a while. She was a Wilhelmina model. Wow. There's a lot of the ballerinas. Yeah. Yeah. Because a lot of the ballerinas like do photo shoots, you know? And then so we sent some in. She wanted to do it, but then they wanted her to start. So of course I ended up driving her to these. Yeah. It's not what you think it is. I mean, she did earn some good money, but it was like, it was a lot of effort. So everything takes a lot of effort. But she was exposed to a working environment for the first time. Yeah. Where she was actually being counted on to be somewhere, to act professionally. And all of these things. So that was a good experience for her. But she did dabble in a lot of things. She did cello, piano, ballet, then modeling, then OSR, and then student council. But again, you could say she's well-rounded, but she won school class president, which is a, a big deal. Like, I think there's some ridiculous percentage, 20% or 30% of Harvard incoming class or Princeton. Were class presidents. Not surprised. Yeah. So, yeah, so it's like ridiculous. Yeah, they, they just grab all the class presidents. Yeah. And then she also did ballet, and she wasn't top, but she did win some smaller competitions. Yeah. So I think competitions, proving something, showing something, having something to show for what you did— I know it sounds stupid, but if you win some competitions, it doesn't matter if it's small or big or whatever, Always do that. Yeah. Always. Who cares if you lose? You win a few, it's good. Yeah. She did OSR. She didn't win that much. She won like maybe second prize or third prize here and there. She got accepted to professional psychology conferences, which was a big deal. Oh, wow. Yeah. So don't give up. Keep chipping away at that one project and make it better and better and better.

Yeah. Isn't that— there's such a tie-in with entrepreneurship, right? Your track record, sort of your MVP, right? And then, and yeah. Yes, keeping— Exactly. I love— Yeah. You know, I think it's so funny, right? Because when they're little, as a parent, you try to expose them to so many, open the doors for them, so many resources, right? And what I'm hearing from you is that, you know, at a certain point, you're going to have to close some doors, right? And as a parent, it's really recognizing their strength and really knowing which door to not so much open now, but rather to close. So that it makes space for other ones to really showcase their spike and kind of going deeper into it. So that is actually a reality check for me at this point in time.

And remember, so if my son had said, "No, I really want to play soccer," even though he was like more amazing at cello, I might have let him do that because I did that with my daughter. I did not say, "You must do this," because I think then I don't know what would've happened. I'm sure she would've been fine, but I didn't wanna do that to her. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. Yeah. And you, you know, kind of going with the kid's pace and every kid is different. So, you know, when people ask questions about parenting, the question is like, it always is, it depends. Right? You have to look at the whole—

I don't know if you listened to this podcast that I had with Angela Duckworth. Oh, I, I didn't hear that. Yeah. So she was on my podcast. You know, Angela Duckworth? I didn't hear that episode.

Yeah. I have to look into it.

She said the best kind of parenting from research anyway is being strict, but at the same time, they know you love them unconditionally. Oh yeah, I love that.

And that is the classic authoritative parenting in all the parenting styles. Give me like, what's your top 3 rules for your kids when they were growing up?

Be kind was one, like just try to be nice to each other and be supportive. We're a very tight family. We're a very small family. We don't have like all these extended relatives or anything. So like super team player within the family. Okay. Like we're all in it together. Wow. I love that. So that's one, teamwork. And two is you gotta do the work, right? Yeah. You have to do the work. You have to participate. You're an active participant, whether in family life or in your own goals and endeavors. We're not gonna do everything for you. It's you in the end. We're here to support you, push you. In every way we can, but you're the one who has to do it. Be proud in what you're producing and showing to the world. I love that. And what other rule? Don't be messy. Ah, yes. Yes. I can't, I can't stand messes. Yeah. I think so. My company is Mind Body Space because as you know, the brain is, is also malleable to our space. So if you have like a very messy space, if you're cluttered, if you're hoarding things, which we all tend to do, I mean, who doesn't? Like, I just moved back from Cambridge while I did my program and I collected stuff. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Because you're just living there. So like you have to be able to purge, you have to be able to let go of things and your space, if you have stuff on the floor, you'll never see ants or like little critters. That are running around down there. Yeah. So just keep your space clean, even if it's just your desk or your backpack. Be responsible for that.

I love that.

Believe me, we had moments though. You can't always be like that. It's definitely a messy process.

But it's all about the process and trusting it and having patience.

And all of this stuff is what I'm teaching now. So I created a planner because of what you're asking. All of these pain points of like time. Yeah. 'Cause when I asked all of my students over the past 10 years, are you stressed out? They would say no. And I said, you're not stressed? And they're like, no. I'm like, well then what's bothering you? Oh, I'm overwhelmed.

Like, oh, interesting. I don't have enough time.

Yeah. So that's their, like, it's this time management thing. Yeah. It's a horrible thing. And, and as you were mentioning, the time suck from all the video games and scrolling. It's really like sucking away our time. So if you look on my website, mindbodysmeets.com, it's all about routines, new lessons every week actually, to get them to understand their brains and to be the boss of their own brain so that they can understand how to make routines work for them.

Yeah, I love that. To be the boss of your own brain and its agency. You have multiple parts. Of interviews. I mean, organization, right? Work ethic we talked about, but there's like so many more questions I want to ask you. I think high level and like holistically, this makes a lot of sense. I'm— awesome— might DM you like for like the day-to-day reinforcement, but what's your takeaway? Yeah, I think my takeaway, very much similar because my son also plays the piano, it's very much similar to how you practice, right? Being deliberately practicing and practicing smart so that theme sort of, you know, when you have your spike being deliberate about how you go about, you know, making it happen, deepening it, and really expanding your impact. So I think it's really being intentional, and I really love just your emphasis in the mind, body, and space connection because I, you know, as a former fitness trainer, I— that, like, that is so important to me. You're a fitness trainer? Yeah.

See, like, more and more stuff comes out. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

So way back in the days, I got bored in consulting, so concurrently I I also worked at 24 Hour Fitness Ultra Sport as a fitness trainer.

Oh my gosh, you're awesome. I'm a yoga instructor and I did like kung fu for 4 years. Oh my gosh, that's so cool.

All right, yeah, we're gonna hang out again.

I love it.

This is awesome. Yes, I appreciate you taking the time to take me under your wings and sort of indulge me in these questions about parenting.

It sounds like you're doing a great job. Oh, well, thank you so much. All right, thank you so much, Jennie, for interviewing me.

Yeah, thank you for this opportunity. Awesome.

I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. Head on over to mindbodyspace.com/podcast to sign up for our email list to get the latest tips and to send us your questions. Thanks for joining us.