How He Transformed His Stage Fright Into Stage Mastery | Pablo Esquivel x Dr. Juna

they randomly picked an audience member and they also connected him to an EEG headset and they asked him to close his eyes beforehand and so on. So it was a mixture of what I was feeling and what this audience member was feeling when hearing my music being played.

Amazing.

And I do believe it made the whole experience, you know, more vulnerable for the artist. On stage because, I mean, when we go on stage and we, you know, we concentrate and we open our hearts to play, we are in a very profound emotional state, I think, right? We're opening up this world of emotions and inviting the public to come and join.

Hi there. If you're curious about high performance or you're a mom raising resilient kids, this episode is a must listen. Today I'm sitting down with Pablo Esquivel, an extraordinarily gifted pianist, composer, and psychologist in training. Not to mention that he was one of my first students at Juilliard when I started teaching the science of resilience there over 10 years ago. This was such a lovely conversation, and Pablo talks to us about how he overcame fear and stage fright using breath and awareness. He'll also share with us his inspiring journey from Costa Rica to Juilliard, telling us what he's learned about thriving under pressure and how the right support system and mindset can make all the difference.

Dr. Bobby, so nice to see you.

So great to see you. Now that was resilient, right? Yeah. We just kept trying.

Can you hear me well?

I can hear you perfectly now. Nice.

Okay.

Amazing. Amazing. So glad to have you back on. It's been so long. Thank you. I know. The years flew by.

They really did. Yeah, time goes by super fast.

Yeah. Last time you were on my podcast was during the pandemic, right?

That's right. Yeah. During COVID Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And you charmed all the people in the workshop. You even came on a workshop with me.

That's right. I remember that. Remember? Mm-hmm.

And you played Debussy, right? Yes.

Clair de Lune.

And did I say it right?

Debussy? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Clair de Lune. That's with a French accent. I didn't realize you were half French. I am.

I am half French. My mom is from France. My dad is Costa Rican. So I grew up coming to France like once a year to visit my family. My French though, it's a bit, it's not there yet. You know, I can understand everything. Really? Yeah. I don't know why. I mean, I guess that—

It sounds pretty good to me.

Well, when I moved to New York, I was only 10. So I had to start learning English. So I guess that I pushed French a little bit in, like in the back. And for some reason I feel like languages were never my forte. Piano was though. Music was.

Yeah. I mean, the last time I saw you was 4 years ago then? Or you were on my podcast 4 years ago. I saw you and spoken to you since, but—

Yes, that's right. And I think we actually saw each other when I went to Manes in New York, which was after your podcast. So it was like 3 or 4 years ago.

Yes. Yes. But you've grown so much. Really? Right? You're like a young man now.

Yeah.

Wait, you were before, but you're now into your 20s.

25. Yeah.

And you're doing amazing things. Thank you. And, uh, I just wanna refresh like how we met. We met at Juilliard. You were in one of my first classes there. Do you remember?

Yes, I do. I was 17.

And who was, do you remember who was in the class? I think, oh yeah, you were 17.

Ali was there. She was a violinist, a great violinist. Uh, Lucy was there as well. Remember Lucy?

Of course.

Of course.

Yes. Oh my gosh. I just got in touch with him on LinkedIn.

Really?

And he was telling me how, you know, Science of Resilience, our, you know, the class that I was teaching.

Yeah.

He was telling me how it had changed his whole perspective of wellness. And he just sent that to me on LinkedIn.

That's so nice.

Oh, I know. Amazing. Wait. Yeah. Remy.

Remy.

Yeah. Who else was in that class? So maybe you were the, you were the second class then.

No, I actually took I took it 2 semesters, so the first one and then the second one as well.

I think in the bio that you sent me, you were having some issues with stage fright when you were 10. First of all, you were like a musical prodigy to start, right?

Yeah, you could say that.

Tell us about your whole musical journey. Yeah, I think so.

Well, I, I started to play the piano when I was 7 years old. Uh, and it's actually very funny because I have 3 brothers, we're 4 boys. Uh, and my oldest brother, we started to play the piano together. I was 7 and he was 8. And I believe that some people are born with natural talents, or at least they have it a little bit more comfortable when they go into a specific area. So my brother, when he sat down on the piano, he was playing different rhythms and singing and playing melodies. And apparently I had no sense of rhythm, no sense of melody. And so my parents, they saw us playing and then they were like, oh, Mateo, which is my brother, oh, Mateo's gonna be a great musician. But on the other hand, I don't think Pablo has, you know, what it takes. But either way, we started piano lessons and after 6 months of it, Mateo dropped out and then he's like, I don't wanna play the piano, I wanna play soccer, I wanna do other things. And I told my parents, I'll take his lessons. So instead of 30 minutes, I had an hour. And I kept on pursuing it. I kept on pursuing it. And I worked really hard. When I was 8 years old, I started to study with some Russians that moved to Costa Rica and they opened up a school. Uh, I loved it.

Nothing like Russian piano school.

Uh, and I started to really practice a lot. You know, when I was 8, 9 years old, I started to play the piano. Like 5 hours a day, 5, 6 hours a day, um, and really just practice. Wow.

You know, just on your own?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, of course.

Were you like, I'm gonna show my parents? What was the deal? I think it was like, what kind of 7, 8-year-old does that?

You know, I think it was a mix of everything. When you're little, you want to show your parents what you can do, and you want to feel validated through them as well, right?

So I guess that was No, but I'm saying because they were like, oh, he has the rhythm. Right.

I guess that's also part of it for sure. I also loved it. I was never forced.

Mm-hmm.

And whenever I wanted to stop, my parents were like, you can stop if you want to, you know? So I was never forced. But I have to say that, you know, through discipline and through pushing through, and my mom helped me a lot. My professional—

Is she a musician?

She's not, but her family from France, they do play the music. And they are musically oriented. So my grandfather used to play the accordion, my uncles play guitar. So I guess that there's a lot more artistry in that side of the family. But anyways, like what I'm saying is that I think my oldest brother, he has perfect pitch. I don't. But the interesting thing is that with music specifically, I've been able to find my own path. Through discipline and being committed. And I feel like some people, it comes easier for them and they don't have to put as much discipline to get somewhere, you know? And in that case specifically, I feel like being committed to this passion really helped me get where I wanted to get. I went to the US after, to Juilliard. That's where we met. Because I truly believe that some people, are born with the gifts and some people have to work a little bit more to get them. Hmm.

So you don't think you're gifted? Who is sure?

No, yes. I mean, I do believe that I have some gifts with music, especially in the emotional part. I believe that's where I connect the most with the music. You know, it's like the perfect example they talk about with Messi and Ronaldo. You know, they're the two greatest soccer players. And then they say that Messi was a natural when it came to playing soccer, that he had these abilities when he was 5 years old, 6 years old, and he could play this way. While Ronaldo, we know his story and he really had to work hard to obtain these skills, right?

Mm-hmm.

So I think that's interesting. Nature versus nurture, right?

Hmm. But yeah, we used to talk about this a lot too. I mean, uh, cuz you know, my son was also very gifted as a cellist. Right. And, and my daughter too, actually, they were both pretty gifted. But when you think about gifts like that, I almost feel like he could have transferred it to something else too. And, uh, he could have just as well, you know, maybe focused on something else. If he wanted to rather than cello or, you know, in my daughter's case, cello and, and then ballet. But when you're talking about like who had natural rhythm versus who didn't, but then you quickly caught up with practice, right? Yes. So, um, I don't know. I think that, uh, yeah, I guess you have definite inclinations and I, I do think that For example, if your parents are musicians or your parents are athletes, you're just gonna have that environment where, you know, you don't even know it's happening. It's like called passive learning. Right. Hmm. So you're like, your brain is shaped by the environment you're in. For example, my kids know a lot about medicine. We didn't teach them about medicine, but they just heard us talking about cases and all of that stuff. So, um, I think that's really interesting what you're saying. You have the two brothers. One wanted to do sports, but you thought he was more inclined, naturally gifted at music. And then what kept you going? And did he ever come back to music?

He did, actually. He came back during COVID He started to sing. He was singing. We were locked in our home back in Costa Rica, and he was singing outside. And he took the guitar and he started to sing his own song. And I'm like, I was like, dude, this is so nice.

This is beautiful. So much later. Yeah. He came back. Wow, that's so interesting.

But he never had any training, any formal training, and he was still able to learn the guitar. He was still able to learn to sing as well.

Oh, so he really is gifted.

Yeah. I mean, yes, I do believe he has a natural talent for it. And he came back and I'm like, we should do something. We should do something about it. I feel like the support you have also influences your self-esteem and your confidence when it comes to making music. So because I had all this support and people who believed in me, it made it also more possible for me to believe in myself as well, right? So when I started to do music with him, he was a little bit shy about it because he didn't have that context. So he's like, oh, I'm not a musician. I don't think we should do— like, I don't think I can do something. And then I had to motivate him a little bit and I'm like, of course you can, you know, it's not about competing, but it's just about doing what do you like and if it feels good, why not? And so we started this band called Purple Fence during COVID It was a pop band and I love to produce music as well. So I'm like, I can produce you. And it's like COVID would be the perfect moment for us to come back to music after we both started playing the piano together 15 years ago. Wow. So, so yeah, we did, we did come back. But to answer your first question, what kept me going? I think the context, really. I think the context really matters. You know, my family was always very supportive. My professors were always very, were always very motivating with me as well. And when the Juilliard opportunity arose, it gave everyone a lot of hope because where I come from, Costa Rica, it's a very small country. It's a very beautiful country, but it's very small. We have 5 million people. It's a lot of nature. You know, it's one of the happiest countries. But anyways, I heard, I heard.

Wait, what is this saying? Vida. Oh, Pura Vida.

Which means pure life.

Yes.

We use it for anything. You know, Pura Vida means hello. Bye, how are you, thank you. So it's, you know, people are very laid back in my country in a good way. So it was very hard to imagine doing music in Costa Rica and getting out of Costa Rica. So when the opportunity to apply to Juilliard Pre-College arose, it really gave a boost to everyone around me, my family, my school that I was in, myself, of course. And so I feel like context really matters. And at that time is what kept me going a lot of the time. Of course, my passion as well, but context really helped.

So somebody said, Pablo, you should really apply to Juilliard Pre-College. Is that what happened?

No, it was more I had won my first competition to go play in New York at Carnegie Hall.

And nice.

I was like, 8 years old. So my dad came with me and this was the first time I was going to the US. And before leaving, my Russian professor told me, hey, look, I have a contact at Juilliard. It's this Russian professor that I talked to like 20 years ago. I don't even know if the phone number is still existent or not, but you should try. So we went to New York.

And who was that?

Uh, her name was Victoria Mushkatko. Yeah, she's a Pre-College piano faculty. We went to New York, we called this phone number and the line said, "Oh, this phone number is non-existent anymore." So then my dad is like, "You know what? We're not stopping here." So we went to Juilliard and we went to the security guards and then my dad told them, "We came all the way from Costa Rica. We have this one contact here. Would it be possible to leave a note with her?" And then that's the security guards were like, I'm sorry, but you know, you cannot do this here. We don't have, you know, the possibility to like contact someone if you're not from the school and this and this. And my dad like said, can you please leave, just leave a note here, even if it's on the lost and found box, you know, just a little note saying that we came through and that we know her, that we're from Costa Rica and so on. That same night we went back to our hotel and somebody was calling us. My dad picked up and it was this lady.. And she called us and then she's like, hey, uh, you know, I never look at these notes that are left at the, uh, lobby because sometimes they leave a lot. But when I heard that you were from Costa Rica, I've always wanted to go see the volcanoes in Costa Rica. And I'm so interested about it. So what brings you here? And then my dad is like, oh my God, thank you for calling so much. My son plays the piano. His dream is to get into Juilliard and so on. And so they agreed to go have coffee the next day. The next day came, we went to have coffee. We talked during that coffee meeting. She said, okay, look, you gotta go online and you gotta do the whole thing. You gotta prepare repertoire and this and that. And my dad told her, thank you. We, we know that that's online and you can see that, but we came all the way here to talk to you because I would love for you to see my son play. And then she's like, I'm so sorry, I actually can't. I have a lesson now. And, you know, I'm not allowed to bring in people that are not from the school. This was back in 2010. And my dad is like, look, we came a long way and it's my dream for you to see my kid play. And then she's like, look, I wish I could do something, but I can't. And I'm not even joking. The third time he's like, if I have to like go on my knees and like tell you to please just give us 5 minutes. It's, you know, it's his dream and everything. And then she's like, all right, I can give you 5 minutes, but it's got, you know, it's, it has to be super quick because I have a student waiting. And so we went in, I played Rachmaninoff piece for 5 minutes. And in the middle of it, she's like, she stopped me and then she's like, great, thank you so much. It was so nice meeting you. We'll be in contact. That's it. Right. And we just left the school and my dad is like, all right, at least we tried.

I love your dad. The way he's persistent. He sounds like something like I would do.

That same night, we went back to our hotel and she called us back and she's like, I want to help your kid train to get into the audition for Juilliard, which was in a couple of months from that day. So since, we started to go back and forth between New York, train a little bit, and the audition came. I did it. And yeah, that's how my story to Juilliard began.

And that was— you got in, right?

I got in for Pre-College, yes.

First time? Yes. Amazing. Yes. Amazing. A lot of people do more than once, right?

They audition all—

Don't give up. Yeah. Keep auditioning more than once. Yeah, I know somebody who did like 3 or 4 years and she finally got in. Really?

Wow.

Yeah. So that's so amazing. And then you came to Juilliard and you trained there at a very young age.

Yes.

I met you in my class when you were 17. That's right.

Yes.

And I think at the time you said you were dealing with some stage anxiety, which is very common, right? I mean, almost everybody goes through that stage. Yeah. Do you remember when it started? Like what age?

I think it was since pretty early on, to be honest.

Neurologically, I'm always thinking like 12.

Yeah. I, I, I was gonna say 12 actually. Mm-hmm.

Okay.

I was gonna say 12.

Yeah. Cuz that's when you just start becoming very sensitive of like other people looking at you.

Okay.

Before that, you're just kind of, your brain does not perceive that.

Interesting. Okay.

Yeah.

And you know what's funny about that? When I used to be 17, 18, uh, I had a colleague and he told me, oh, I'm just taking, what are those pills called that they stop your heart from going fast?

Oh, beta blockers.

Beta blockers. That's right. I had never heard about these, right? And he told me, oh, I just take one before concert, and it feels amazing. You should try it out. I'm like, okay. So I went to the doctor, I explained my case, and then he's like, oh yeah, you should take beta blockers. So he prescribed me beta blockers.

Your doctor said that?

Yeah.

I was going to say, your doctor said no, no, Pablo.

You know, he actually—

I'm so surprised.

I talked to my doctor, and then I'm like, you know, I get very anxious before going on stage, and this colleague of mine talked to me about this pill that helps regulate the rhythm of your heart. And then he's like, oh yeah, Beta blockers are very common for musicians, but here's the story though. I had no idea what they were, how they, I mean, I did, you know, did a little bit of research, especially with my parents as well. And before a performance, I said, okay, I'm going to take one just to see how it feels. Right. And funnily enough, I took one and it made me even more anxious. Than normally.

Oh, okay.

I don't know.

Had the opposite effect for you.

Yeah. It had the opposite effect. I don't know if that's common or no, but I've, I've heard some people it happens as well.

And yeah, medication is just very personal.

Right. And I just took one and I was a lot more nervous. And so I'm like, I thought this was supposed to help me a little bit, you know?

Wait, so by colleague, you're saying like another teenager?

Yeah.

So yeah, way back they used to call, I think they used to even say beta blocker kids, like the classical musicians because it was so common. But obviously like any other medication, there's side effects, right? Right. And it's definitely not the best way to handle, I mean, we know so much more about the brain now. Mm-hmm. And taking beta blockers, yes, it will slow down your heart rate, but it will also make you not feel as excited. And some of that excitement, as you probably know, you know better than I do, you're on stage, you need some of that to get emotional and to convey that emotion through your music.

Yeah.

So it could dampen that.

Definitely. Yeah, for sure. I mean, sometimes I feel like I'm a little bit too excited and too emotional, and that can also interfere with my playing. But usually when I can accept it and live with it. It's, it's when I can channel those emotions through my body. And I have to say that your class, as I did mention on my last podcast with you, helped me a lot. That is when I started to meditate and have more interest in the breathing exercises. So still till this day, The one tool that helps me before going on stage is my breathing exercises routine before walking on stage, right? And it's very personal.

Nice.

It's very personal because, you know, I try to do a little bit of the Wim Hof method. I also try to do meditations, like I visualize how it feels to walk on stage and so on. And this day is really the one component that has proven benefits to me, right? This is my personal experience.

It's amazing that you're saying that because after all these years of teaching, and I've put on a lot of digital courses online as well, and the one that's gotten the most positive and tremendous feedback is the very simple breathing exercise one.

Really?

And it's, you know, remember in class, I don't know if you remember, but we used to say just for one breath.

Yeah.

Nothing to do. Yeah. Yeah. So I taught like what we call minis, just, just one breath. And this course, so many people wrote back saying how simple it was. 'Cause sometimes we wanna make things complicated, you know, to show that it can work or, but that one breath, like you're saying, it's really the anchor. So I've come to the conclusion that that's the main thing that I wanna focus on when I work with really young kids, kind of making that a habitual breath. We have instant reactions to things when we're stressed. So instead of having that negative reaction, to make that breath, I call it the positive stress response.

Mm-hmm. It makes sense.

Or the relaxation response.

It makes sense because it's, it's also hard to become present during those moments because you feel like your mind is going at 1,000 kilometers per hour. And even though you're in the present moment, you're really not. And you're already thinking, what happens if I do this? What happens if this happens? Right? So even though you're breathing, you're not even conscious about what's going on with yourself.

Right?

And I believe that, you know, whatever breathing exercise works for you, and if you can use that as an anchor before, it can have a lot of benefits. And it's also, I think, you know, how we condition ourselves in that space too. This is why visualizing helps a lot for me as well, because I can, in a way, not trick my body, but make it understand, you know, if I close my eyes and I visualize myself going on a stage, walking on the stage, sitting on the piano, it's almost as if my body was living that. Real time, even though I'm imagining it in my head. And so if I'm in that moment, I have a lot more control to interfere— or not interfere, but just be more present through my breathing. And it's almost like I can teach my body how to feel in that moment, you know? So when I go on stage, it doesn't feel like it's something unknown or something that I haven't experienced before.

I think that you're literally rehearsing it because your brain is so powerful at imagination.

Yes. Yes.

We didn't do this when you were in our class, but now I get them to dress up.

Oh, really?

In some of the classes I have them dress up and they're like, yeah.

Ah, nice.

Yeah. Gowns and everything. Right. The more close you get to the actual thing, the better. And I just saw something on Instagram the other day. I wanna send it to you. It was like all these Air Force pilots and they're doing the whole— I saw that. Did you see it?

I saw that. And it was precisely like a little bit to the left, to the right.

Yeah.

I saw that. I saw that.

Yes. So it must be going viral cuz it must be on our feeds, right? Yours and mine. I loved it. I thought it was so beautiful.

Yeah.

It was incredible.

Yes.

So do you have that sort of vivid visualization? Cuz some people can't visualize as well as others. Some people, just don't have that. Like they don't have that mental image. I think it's, it's a, yeah.

But I mean, with everything it's just practice. I think, you know, even with meditation, uh, I don't know.

I think there's actually like a, I, I don't remember the statistics. I'll look it up, but there's just like an actual percentage of people who can't visualize. Really?

Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. They, I mean, like they can hear, like imagine hearing something or even smelling something. Yeah. But they can't see it. Mm-hmm. I forget the name for it. There's, there's, it's like a, I don't know, maybe you're right though. Maybe they could practice too.

Interesting.

Right?

Interesting. Yeah. Because I know that, you know, I know I've heard people before say like, I don't know how to meditate or I don't know what to do when I'm meditating. Right? And it's definitely hard to train yourself to do something you're not accustomed doing.

Right.

But I had a friend that I wanted to help him meditate. He's a doctor. So he had to go through stressful hours, as you well know. He was getting his degree and he had to, you know, he had his practice and it was like some, sometimes he had to be at the hospital like a full day, you know. So I told him, hey, have you ever tried meditating? And then he's like, I don't know how to do it. And then I'm like, look, we can do it together. Okay. We're just gonna start with barely 60 seconds. We're gonna close your eyes and you're gonna listen to my voice and then you're gonna focus on your breathing. Right.

Do it for us right now, Pablo.

Yeah.

Yeah, go for it. Go for it. You have such a nice voice.

Thank you.

Go for it.

So, okay.

I could use a little 60-second meditation.

All right. So we're, we're gonna close your eyes if you feel comfortable.

Mm-hmm.

And slowly we're gonna concentrate on how my voice feels when I talk. We're gonna concentrate on, on how it feels sitting down on this chair, the weight of our body. And then slowly we're going to inhale through our nose and exhale through our mouth. The second time we're going to inhale through our nose and exhale through our nose. Now just keep doing that, inhaling and exhaling through your nose, and just feel whenever you do that, your upper lip. How there's a little breeze that touches your upper lip when you inhale, and how it touches it again when you exhale through your nose. And just like that, we come back, open our eyes, feel comfortable and ready into the room. So, you know, it was something very simple.

Very nice.

Thank you. It was something very simple, but what happened with my friend is that he would do it, and after 20 seconds, he would tell me, like, I'm lost, my mind is somewhere else. So I told him, okay, maybe 60 seconds is a bit too much. So we did 30 seconds and then we did it for 30 seconds. And I, the same thing, I'm like, let's close our eyes, let's focus on our breathing and so on for 30 seconds. And after 15 seconds, he's like, I'm lost. My mind is going somewhere else. So I'm like, that's fine. You know, maybe 30 seconds is too much. Let's do 15 seconds. And we had to go like that and reduce it to 5 seconds. You know, but even then, even then, just how you said for one breath, I am here. Even then, 5 seconds being able to shift your mentality of being in this almost automatic mode and just coming back to your present moment, feeling your senses and feeling your body, feeling even if it's one breath and doing that every day, I do believe that it has a little bit of a change in your body, in your mind, right? And through repetition, you create a habit. And through these habits, then you can make it more comfortable with yourself. So what I had planned with him is that, okay, every day when you wake up, literally gonna take 5 seconds, just 5 seconds, you close your eyes, you do one inhale and one exhale, and then we're gonna keep each other, uh, what's the word? We're gonna keep each other accountable. Yes, accountable. So you're gonna send me a check when this happens. So we tried doing this for—

A check? Yeah. Like money check?

No, no, no. Like an emoji check.

I'm just kidding.

Can you imagine?

Write me a check every time.

Can you imagine I charge my services for 5 seconds? Uh, and so we started to do that and after 2, 3 weeks I'm like, okay, can we take it up to 10 seconds a day now? You know? And that's it because a lot of people are like, oh, let's meditate for 1 hour and they're not really ready or they don't know that, you know, if you haven't ever done so, your mind is conditioned to go somewhere else, right? So sometimes that's what you said, people feel like the more complex it might be, the more professional it sounds, the more effects it might have on you, right? But it can be something as simple as taking 5, 10 seconds and coming back to your present moment.

Yeah, just one breath. That's so nice of you that you're trying to help You're fun like that.

Yeah.

Also, you know, the mind wandering is normal, so you can let 'em know that it's fine. Like it's just bringing it back a thousand times, right? You know?

Right.

It's totally normal for your mind to go off and that's not a failed meditation at all.

No. Yeah.

In fact, if you notice it, if you notice your mind going off, that's part of the meditation itself. Mm-hmm. Remember in class we talked about now 10 years ago, 10 Do you remember 10 years ago we talked about the word GOM, G-O-M in Tibetan? GOM is, it just means meditation in Tibetan, but it really means getting familiar with your mind, your thoughts. So when you said before, like how you would notice your thoughts racing, that's even beyond the general non-noticing of thoughts, right? Like you're already starting to notice your thoughts. So the more you familiar you get. With your thoughts, then you can direct it, right? Because if you don't, if you're not familiar, if you don't even notice where your thoughts are, there's no chance of directing it.

Right.

So when you notice those thoughts, you can direct it back to what you're saying, the one breath.

Yes. Before going on stage, instead of trying to suppress those feelings and the anxiety that you're feeling, being able to notice that and live with it and channel that through your playing as well.

I want to talk about that actually. I'm glad you brought that up because you're the stage expert. You've been playing on beautiful stages in Paris right now, right? I saw that amazing concert you gave with— so you have EEG on someone's head and then you were playing and they were projecting the EEG on the screen. So tell me about that experience. What was that about?

Yeah, so this concert that I did, it was at Le Grand Rex, which is a very nice theater here in Paris. Paris. I've been working, uh, with Steinway here. It was for a summit of AI. They were doing a conference of AI companies, so a lot of AI companies came. It was the whole—

I wish I had known about that.

It was really cool, actually.

Okay, so Steinway did an AI thing? That's so cool.

Because they have a new piano called the Spirio Piano, which, uh, it uses AI as well. So basically you can play in the Spirio Piano and it records what you play and it's going to play it back not only how it sounds, but the same sensitivity that you use, the same feeling.

And I saw you playing it on Instagram and talking about it.

It's really cool. And yeah, not only that, but it can bring someone else's performance into that same moment, that same room that you're there, and it's going to play it with the same sensitivity. So let's say that you want to hear Bill Evans playing one of his concerts. He's not even alive anymore, but the technology can get his sensitivity, his sound, his touch, and replicate it as if it was him playing in front. Wow.

And for people who don't know the piano, like the sensitivity, you're saying like the pressure and the way you touch the keys. I mean, like it, you know, when I found out that the way you, the parts of your finger that's touching the key makes a difference. Like I didn't know any of that. Yeah. It's so, I mean, I took piano lessons when I was, little, but like, I need to know those nuances.

Definitely.

So that's what you're talking about, right?

The weight.

So that's why when you see piano players like moving, it's like— it— can you explain that?

I mean, it has to do with it, but I feel like for some pianists it's also the emotional reaction they have. When I move, and when I'm, you know, I tell my students there's a difference of believing that you need to move to create a sound, which is not actually very healthy because you should be able to play without moving compared to moving because you have an emotional reaction, right?

Mm, okay. But when you're like picking your finger up and then like dropping it, for example, those kind of motions, like that changes the pressure, right?

Yes.

And how you land on it.

Definitely. But my professor at Juilliard, he told me if you know where your weight is coming from when you play the piano, you should be able to play without moving at all. Actually, you know?

So, but there's nuances to the weight that you're putting onto the key itself, which is what you're talking about. The Steinway can reproduce that. Exactly.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes. It's like, just imagine how the old iPhones, you had to put your fingerprint, right? And it had to be like every little, you know, part of your finger. I feel like it has—

Fingerprints? Yeah.

I feel like it has something to do with that. You know, it really catches the way you land on every key, the weight you give, you you know. And it's something that for me, it's one of the most beautiful arts of playing the piano. Learning how to use your body weight and, you know, being able to have control over it and being able to live with it. You know, it's like dancing as well, really.

It's amazing because most people think of piano, they're just like hitting a key, but it's not. Yeah. Like, yeah.

And it takes a lot of years. It took me like 7 years at Juilliard to be able— and I still have to, you know, come back to it and kind of relearn certain parts of my body. But it took me 7 years at Juilliard to finally be able to more or less understand the body and my weight and how to channel that when I'm playing the piano. Right.

Amazing. Amazing.

And so this event, we were closing up at the end of the conference and we were linking up with this company, this neurological company. Who were developing this EEG headset that they would put on you and parts of your brain would be activated, of course, when you play. And this headset, what it would do, it would try to analyze those parts that would be activated and translate that into visuals so that people could see basically what the pianist was feeling when playing on stage. 'Cause a lot of the times we just see the human moving, which is also very beautiful, right? But this time the public was able to see visually what the pianist was feeling. So you could see the shapes and you could see different visualizers of basically what I was feeling. And they also wanted to step it up. So they randomly picked an audience member and they also connected him to an EEG headset and they asked him to close his eyes beforehand and so on. So it was a mixture of what I was feeling and what this audience member was feeling when hearing my music being played.

Amazing.

And I do believe it made the whole experience, you know, more vulnerable for the artists on stage. Because I mean, when we go on stage and we, you know, we concentrate and we open our hearts to play, we are in a very profound emotional state, I think, right? We're opening up this world of emotions and inviting the public to come and join. And everyone, of course, is going to have a different interpretation of the music, but hopefully it's going to be an emotional interpretation, right?

Mm-hmm.

And that by itself is very emotional. But now to have the public see a part of how you're feeling and being able to connect with that reality, with that virtual reality. To me, it felt a little bit more vulnerable to the point that when I was playing in the middle of the piece, you know, I was playing, then I had to improvise, and then I had to go to my second piece. When I finished my first piece, it's almost like I was coming out of this trance, and I remember that I was there and my legs were shaking. You know, but in a, in a good way, you know, when you feel like so emotional and you feel like your whole body's vibrating like that, you know, and it was awesome.

I don't know, but well, I had that when I'm, I'm sleep deprived. That's what I have.

Yeah.

That's, or actually I used to have horrible like, uh, public speaking fear. Mm-hmm.

Really?

Even as I was giving lectures to rooms of hundreds of people.

Were you able to overcome it?

No. No. I mean, I, I, I do. It depends on like what I'm speaking about. Okay. If I'm very comfortable with what I'm speaking about, yeah, I pretty much overcome it, but it's usually less prominent when I'm in a very large auditorium. So the more people there are, the less nervous I am.

I see. I see.

You, it's like if I'm in a room with like 10 people staring at me and they're right in my face, that's more nerve-wracking than like, let's say an auditorium of like 1,000 people.

That's so interesting. And is it because maybe you feel more disconnected when it's a large public from the audience?

I'm pretty sure. Yeah. You can't like, you're not looking at any particular person's eyes or anything like that.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. What about you? Do you feel like that or? I doesn't matter.

I think, uh, I have to agree with you. You know, thinking about it, when I used to play in studio class at Juilliard, it was only 5, 6 people, and that had me going the craziest, you know. The most nerves would be for studio class, at least for me.

Uh-huh. Okay.

And of course—

Interesting. But then when you were giving a big performance?

It was a little bit less. Yeah. Uh-huh.

Uh-huh.

But I do have to say that, you know, now I'm playing my compositions. I've shifted. To composing. After Juilliard, I went to Berklee, but then I ended up at Mannes School of Music studying classical composition. And when I was doing that, I said to myself, this is what I want to do. I really like it. And I had been always— I had been composing for a long time. And yeah, I guess that also, you know, a part of why I was nervous when playing classical music was the pressure of And I guess this is very common, but because it's such a historical piece and a lot of people know it and how it's supposed to go, I guess the pressure of it got to me a little bit, you know?

So the judging or like the precision of what other people expect of that particular piece. Okay. So you feel freer with your compositions, which are amazing, by the way. I love them.

Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I guess that everyone finds a different path. I knew that my forte was more in the emotional part and I could really translate that with my compositions. So I did that, and as I was going back to this concert, it was amazing because, you know, I was able to collaborate with AI for the first time. And when the whole AI revolution started to come out, you know, I had a little bit doubt. A lot of artists did, and I know they still do, uh, of course. And what that experience taught me is that you can also use this, uh, up-and-coming technology to intensify and to just expand the human experience when you're doing a concert instead of replacing it, you know? Because what that concert taught me is that everyone at the audience, I felt they were so connected because they were enhanced not only through sound but also visually. And that's what AI was doing, right? It was transforming what I was feeling into visuals, right? And that's what I heard from people after, you know, they, they told me like, you know, they, they, they were locked in. One of the reasons why we go to the movies and if the movie is good and we're so locked in even for hours is because we are so stimulated by so many senses, sound, visuals, and now we have like other movies that like the seat moves and stuff. But that's what I felt. People were locked in.

Awesome. I love that. That's like extra engagement.

Yeah. And so I thought it was really cool to be able to combine those two worlds and to be able to experiment there and kind of go in there without fear as well. And at the end of the day, what is going to come out on top is the human experience. You know, when I was first trying this Spirio piano, somebody in that room made a joke saying like, oh, you don't need pianists anymore. You can just send the piano around the world and just make it play alone. And then somebody from Steinway said, actually, no, you know, nothing is going to replace having a human play on it. And even after COVID, the numbers have proven that people want to go see others perform live more and more. They want to connect.

Yeah. Who wants to see just the piano, like, movie? I mean, but it is kind of cool that what you said about the person who passed away and you can have them play, kind of, you know, that's pretty cool. And I do have one recommendation for you that they're talking a lot about at Harvard is exploring the legal aspects of copywriting or, you know, intellectual property of your music as an artist. So that's something you can explore and make sure that, you know, you have like a handle on that.

Yes, yes, yes. If you want to be an artist, you gotta wear so many different hats.

Yeah.

I feel like today is not enough because, you know, there's so much competition and also how you can use your music has expanded a lot since 10, 20 years ago, right? And so the whole thing with social media as well, you know, the whole thing about copyrights, the whole thing about how you can use this for different projects, whether it is for film as well, right? So it's such a competitive world and it's a very hard world for sure. You gotta learn how to become your own business and how you can be your own.

Oh my gosh, that's awesome. Entrepreneurship, right?

Yeah, for sure.

That's the other stuff that I'm learning a lot this year.

Oh yeah.

I took a bunch of entrepreneurship classes at MIT. Sloan, the management school. I love that you said that as being an artist, you have to wear many different hats and I think you're doing such a great job with your social media. And do you have an agent or are you your own agent or?

Yeah, so I actually signed with a management company last year.

Congrats.

Thank you. And this agent of mine, she actually is from Mali, but she grew up in Paris. She knows the business a lot here. So this is why I'm actually in Paris now, because we're trying to develop more opportunities here.

I love it.

Yeah, that's the other part as well. You know, I talked about context at the beginning. As an artist, it's fundamental that you get yourself a good team. And before these managers, I started with one of my friends. He's like my age. He's like 27. He's a— an amazing— he's very talented in doing everything that has to do with videos, photos, editing, you know. And I started to do a lot of work together. Uh, he came to Paris, he helped me a lot with the photos, with the videos, and we're still together, you know. I just released my new album and he was the one who did the artwork. So I feel like—

which, congratulations! Oh my gosh, Being of a Flower, amazing.

Thank you, thank you. And he did the album cover, and I feel like we're still going to be working together. But we started this because we both believed in each other. We were both young, and to get yourself a good team is so important.

That's so cool. I saw that you were influenced by Max Richter, who I love.

Yeah.

And what about Philip Glass?

I love him as well. He went to Juilliard, you know?

I didn't know that. And I was like, this guy Pablo, he's going to be the next Philip Glass. That's what I said.

He went to Juilliard.

I hope you like him enough that I could say that. I do, I do.

I do like him a lot. Yeah, you know, people think that doing simple music is easy, but it really is not, you know?

I don't think it's simple. Why do you say that? Why do you think it's simple?

Because, you know, if— you know, this is why he's also being boxed in into the minimalist movement, right?

Oh, Philip Glass? Yes. I'm not that sophisticated. I just know him from like his— he was one of the pioneers of making that kind of music into a multimedia event. I remember he would do like lights and colors, you know, when people weren't doing that.

Yeah.

I think that's why I think of him. And I also remember him being in a lot of indie movies.

Yeah. Yeah.

There's one particular one where they show like seas of people moving through New York City. So. I'm not very sophisticated on the musical part because I'm not a musician, as you know. So I don't know about that. But yes, please feel free to tell us. I didn't think his music was simple. I just admired that he was like a frontiers person for that type of multimedia that, you know, now AI is a part of.

Right. So what I mean with simple is when you look at the technique, right? So I went to this concert by Ludovico Einaudi. He's also one of my great influences, and he is in this, let's say, music style that today is being called neoclassical or new age music or classical contemporary. So I went to see him because I really looked up to him, and some of my colleagues went as well. He played like an hour, and at the end of the concert, you know, I was in a blissful state. I loved him. But my colleagues, some of them were like, oh, his technique is not the best, you know, this and that. But then I argued and then I said, do you know how hard it is to have a piece that's 15 minutes and start really, really soft, really quiet, and then have musicians with you playing at the same time and have to elevate that gradually for 15 minutes? And in minute 5, you're already like holding on to your chair because of all the emotional friction there is. And it just keeps on going up and keeps on going up. And at minute 12, you're like, oh my God, my heart is going to explode. Right? Do you know how hard it is to do that? Right? To be able to keep that emotional tension.

And incredible.

And I feel like today a lot of the music is drifting away from all this complexity of, you know, how technical you can be and how many notes you can play and how fast you can play, but more of the emotional impact it can have on people. Uh, and this is why I believe that Max Richter and now the Odafor Arnold Philip Glass, they've had such success because people can find an emotional refugee in their music.

Amazing. Well said, Pablo. Well said. Thank you. You're so mature now. Oh my gosh.

Well, I'm glad. Yeah, I'm 25 already. Yeah.

And so tell us about the little ritual that you do before— not little, but like the ritual you do before you go on stage.

So I usually drink, which you can guess, so I usually drink like 3 cups of wine. Now I'm joking, I don't.

And take a beta blocker.

Can you imagine? I talked about all of that.

Wine plus beta blocker. No, you'd be like lying down.

So before, you know, something that has worked a lot, a lot, humor before, interestingly enough.

No, I love it much.

And one of my managers, you know, I'm hugely into like comedy. I remember we even saw a comedian that you presented to us and then said, how you— how can you be funny? You're just gonna write one joke a day. That stuck with me a lot, you know.

You remember that from class? That was Seinfeld.

Yes.

Oh, he wrote like 3 jokes a day. Yeah. Oh my God, I love— I love talking to this brain that I knew 10 years ago who remembers these little things. It makes me, you know, feel like going on with it, you know. Like, you give me so much joy, like just knowing that people remember stuff. That's awesome.

It definitely did have an effect. Yeah, for sure. And so one of my managers, because I have two, this awesome woman that she's in Paris, but she's also traveling. And then this other manager that he lives in LA. They're both awesome. They're great people. I love them. And the one from LA, he has pretty ingenious humor, which I love. And so at that concert, I remember that we were just joking and making like the most, uh, you know, like a marathon of jokes. And I would joke and he would joke back at me, we would be laughing. And at that moment I'm like, I have to go on stage in 5 minutes and I'm laughing here, but this is helping me so much, you know, because I feel like this excitement, I'm also being able to channel it doing something else. And, and not doing something else, not evading the situation, but just putting it into work instead of like trying to suppress it, right? And so 5-10 minutes before, what I try to do is I try to calm down, and that is exactly when I try to begin with my breathing exercises. And what I try and do there is really accept what I'm feeling and being able to use that as positive fuel when I go on stage. Right.

But not judging what you're feeling. Yes. Right. Just knowing that, like, if it feels like anxiety, then you just accept that you're feeling like it's anxiety, but maybe physiologically it's not anxiety, it's excitement.

Yes.

For example.

Exactly. It's, it's the name you give it.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

It's the, it's the name you give it. And then I try to identify what I'm feeling. So sometimes, you know, I'm there and I'm waiting and I'm I'm just like, okay, I feel a little tingly, uh, on my stomach. I feel my hands are a little sweaty and I try to identify that in a positive way. And I'm like, but this is great.

Yeah.

This is gonna give me energy, you know, energy to play. This is gonna give me actually a lot of energy to give and be able to express it in such a vivid way. This is why I think I was shaking when I played up there, you know?

So how long are you doing the breathing for? How much time do you give yourself?

I usually do 5-10 minutes before.

Okay, nice. And then do you actually, if you don't have somebody cracking you up, do you go on to like a, a Instagram feed and watch like some comedians or something or no?

Yeah, sometimes I try and do that. Yeah. But if not, you know what I do? I just pick on some stage technician in a gentle way, of course. And I just start to do jokes, you know? So I'm like, I don't know, they're putting the mic and then they're like, okay, so when you go in, you have to go through, I mean, on the back of the stage, and then you go on the piano. And then I'm like, all right, so when I go in, I have to go on the front of the stage, do a front flip, and then go on the piano. And then they're like, wait, wait, no, what?

No. So you mess with them a little bit. Yeah. You know, I had this comedian on my podcast. Her name was Isabel Hagan. She spoke at the Juilliard Pre-College graduation 2 years ago. And she is a comedian.

Nice.

She was a violist. She went to Pre-College. And to Conservatory at Juilliard. Then she switched careers. She's now a comedian.

Wow.

And she uses her viola sometimes on stage. That's so cool. But now that I know you love comedy too, I'm gonna start sending you reels. Please do. I'm always sending it to like my son and my daughter and yes. Now I'm gonna send it to you. Please do.

I want my feed full of humor before I go on stage.

And we didn't even get to talk to about all of your biography and stuff, but again, you're gonna come back. Yes. Um, and, um, Yeah, next time, not like 5 years later, hopefully. It's just, it's been both of us so busy, right? You have some amazing stories and I just love seeing you evolve from the teenager that I knew you as. And now this young man, so sophisticated in Paris, doing all these amazing things. And you were going to be a psychologist, but now you're back to performing, which is incredible.

Although I'm very close on getting my psychology degree.

It was, you are, you're still gonna do it.

Yeah, for sure.

That would be amazing.

I love it. I love it.

Like sports psychology type thing or performance psych.

So I really, I really like clinical psychology, to be honest. And I really like the humanist branch. Of course, I also like the cognitive, uh, behavioral therapy, but, uh, there's something about guiding someone through their emotions and their feelings and their thoughts that it's, it's, it's an art. It's really annoying.

I love it.

Yeah.

I love, love, love it. You know, I had somebody else on my podcast, Benjamin Kavaleski.

Okay.

I'm not saying it right, but okay. But he's, he works at Jessica Schleider's lab at Northwestern. She was also at Harvard before, but she's been doing so much research on single session interventions.

Oh, wow.

So SSI. Um, so not SSRI, which is a drug, but like SSI as in single session intervention.

Right.

Meaning like, for example, what you did with your friend who's a doctor and just having him breathe, that would be like a single session intervention.

Hmm. Interesting.

Okay. So like what I said to you about doing 3 jokes a day, or, you know, talking about Seinfeld and you remember that single session intervention, and they've shown that a short 30-minute online interactive that taught kids about their brain or like about their emotions, it had an effect out 10 to 12 months.

Really?

On anxiety and depression.

Wow. Yeah. That's incredible.

30 minutes. So I want to encourage you to keep helping people every time you talk to them. 'Cause it sounds like you do, you know, do that naturally. I love it. Those little moments. I love it. Yeah.

It's, I mean, this is for another time, but I, I met this incredible guy. He's today, he's kind of like my godfather and he's the one that introduced me to psychology and he helps a lot of people, a lot of people and He's a psychologist? He is a psychologist. He's also a journalist. Uh, oh, he's an artist, you know, he's traveled a lot and he's helped a lot of people. But he really made me, or he helped me realize that there's nothing like being a, being able to connect in the human part and the human essence. And I think one of the reasons why I feel so good when I'm doing jokes before going on stage is because I'm literally connecting in one of the most authentic human ways, you know? Like everyone is professional and everyone has a role and everyone has like a hat to wear, but you catch them off guard and it's like you bring them into the most human way possible, right? So—

Wait, Pablo, I didn't know this comedian side of you. Oh my gosh, this is awesome. I love it. We're gonna have to go see a comedy show. Oh, I would love to, yeah. I love going to Westside Comedy.

Okay.

It's right by Juilliard. Like, I mean, not right by, but like 10 blocks away. Okay. And they have some great shows. I've seen some great shows there. I have actually met a neighbor who I started following on Instagram. Yeah. And she's this comedian. She's a mom. Nice. And it turned out she lives in my town.

Really?

In Westchester. Oh. So then I went to go see her at West Side Comedy. But anytime you're in New York.

Sure. And, uh, I would love to.

But I'm gonna be in Paris in August, but I guess you're not gonna be there.

Uh, maybe I'll be back August. Late August because I have a concert here in September. So yeah, I think I'll be here late August. Yeah, for sure.

And where is this beautiful place you're in right now?

So I'm actually staying at this artist's residence. Uh, the thing about Paris is that they have a lot of places for artists because there's a lot of art here, right? And so this whole place is filled with artists. You have movie directors, you have, uh, musicians, you have painters, and not only artists but a lot of scientists. So a lot of neurologists as well, people who come all over the world. So it's like a holiday.

Wait, what is this place?

Yeah, it's really cool. It's called Rue des Récollets and it's right by the—

Who? Don't let—

Trust me, I don't even think I'm saying it right, but I took French in high school from a Texan.

Oh my God, my teacher was from Texas and he was teaching French in high school in New Jersey.

Why would he do that?

Oh my gosh. But let me see. It looks so gorgeous. It's so cool.

Yeah, it's really cool.

I've seen some of your Instagram posts. I'm like, where is he? This is amazing.

Yeah.

And actually, do you have to apply?

You do have to apply. Yeah, you do have to apply because it's—

Can I apply?

If you're—

I can say Pablo's my— Pablo's my teacher.

Well, you are a scientist, you know, and you do work with artists, so—

Yeah. It's a really cool— And I'm becoming an artist.

Yes.

I haven't told you that yet.

You know what?

I took some arts— art classes at Harvard. Really? This year.

Well, it never ceases to surprise me. It, you know, it feels like whenever I see you, you're getting a new degree on something, which I love, which I love.

No, no more school. I'm not going back to school ever again. Some days I was like, why am I back at school? I never really liked school, but I did learn a lot.

And then definitely, I remember that you also have your yoga certificate, right? Yeah.

I collect a lot of certificates. Right.

Which is awesome. And now you're going into arts.

Like, that's, you know, I love sketching.

Person. Amazing.

Yeah. And so are you. That's why I guess we know each other. And yeah. And over all these years, and I wish I could give you a hug.

Likewise.

Oh, can I show you what I made at Harvard? Hold on one sec. This is kind of crazy, but I ended up wanting to create like a tangible product that kids could use or even older kids. And so here— oh wow, it's called Zen Bun, and it has a friend called Zen Cloud. And this is— yes, this is the brain.

I love it.

Okay, and this is your emotions. And then this also has like this little, um, computer thing here that takes you through. It's frowning because I tilted it. But you basically like, you can watch and breathe. Wow. Yeah, it said love.

Wow.

Whoops, it frowned cuz I tilted it. But at the end you get to blow out some hearts. Like you, you actually like breathe on it and it flickers out.

That's so cool.

And, and I came up with all these little children's books.

Oh wow.

And so I'm making, and you did them? Yeah, cool. So this is part of like teaching them about their brain.

Nice.

Basically, it's like a lot of science and like a lot of the things we talk about in class, like habits and all that.

I love it.

And tell me if you hate me, but I used AI to make, to make an original song. You did? They're like little kids songs.

Okay.

And like, you have to talk to AI in a very specific way. This is what I learned. And I was able to have it make a very nice catchy song, like a children's song.

Yeah.

I'd love for you to be part of some of these songs I make, but it's to teach kids lessons about everything that we love to talk about.

But I guess that, I mean, again, if you're using it to expand and to grow and for the benefit of other people too, you know. It's almost like you're using that tool to enhance the arts in a way, you know?

Yes.

That's what I feel.

And I would love to have real artists, but it was just, I, you know, under time pressure and sometimes to get things out fast. Oh, you know, just to, just to like, because I'm an artist at heart, but like it would take me so long to make all these pieces.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

I got you. Yeah. And I was wondering, because I saw one of your Instagram videos and then I saw like 10 dumplings and I'm like, that's so cool. But why does she have so many? I'm like, maybe, you know, she's obsessed with them, but I get it now.

Okay. So it, like you were saying, it's the whole thing tangible. Yeah. You know, softness, you can visual, like everything together. And yeah, I might be ordering 3,000 of these soon. Why?

But, well, let me know so I can get a few.

Oh my gosh. Yes. Amazing. I wanna collaborate with you, Pablo. You're amazing. I can't wait to come see you play.

Yes.

Wherever you're playing next.

Yes, for sure. Yes, I'm very happy to be where I am. I'm not gonna lie to you. I mean, I'm sure that you know the artist world is very difficult. You know, there's a lot of uncertainty, but again, it's like you always gotta trust in your path. If you have passion and you have love and if you have good habits, I think that helps a lot, right? If you have a good team, if you have direction and an objective, there's always a way to do it, right?

Uh, yeah, amazing. And also, you're going to get your psychology degree, it sounds like.

I am, yes. I'm super happy too because I feel like with psychology, you know, it's like I have colleagues that graduated and they're like 21, which is great, right? But I just wonder, you know, one of my psychology professors told me, yes, you know, if you want to be a good psychologist, of course you need to know the theory, but in Costa Rica, we We say something that you need to have "kaji," which means you need to have street knowledge as well, which means you need to live experiences, right? Meet people, be in different situations and so on. And so—

And I feel like your emotional intelligence just from like all the music and everything is just so incredible.

Thank you. Well, yeah. Yeah.

And that's really going to help. Yeah.

So—

Where can people find you? And everybody buy your album. I'm going to go buy one now. Can I buy it on Apple Music? Where do I buy it?

Yes, you can. So you can buy it on iTunes, but you can also stream it on Apple Music, on Spotify, basically on all the platforms. You can follow me on my Instagram @pabloesquiveln.

And spell it out.

So Pablo, P-A-B-L-O, Esquivel, E-S-Q-U-I-V-E-L-N. V-E-L-N. And then—

Nice. Um, but we want to support, so where do we buy? So Apple? Yes, Apple Tunes.

You can buy—

Wait, Apple Tunes? Is that a thing?

iTunes.

iTunes. iTunes. Okay.

And you know what I'm doing?

I will buy on iTunes.

I'm getting back to Insight Timer because I know that you can put a lot of music there. So I'm getting back to that. Uh, and I've been seeing that a lot of people put, uh, this is funny because a lot of people put music for sleep, which is like 30 minutes, 1 hour, even some people do it 6 hours. You know, Max Richter, he did a project with sleep psychologists and he created an album that is 8 hours long and is especially customized for the sleep cycles, right?

Yeah, I've seen that. I've downloaded that.

Super cool.

You know who else has a really good sleep album is Moby.

Oh yeah, as well. Moby.

Moby is the father of electronic music, which a lot of kids don't know him, but he's the, he's the beginning of that. But he has it free. It's called LA and it's for sleep. Okay. Yeah. And he has it just free cuz he had insomnia for a really long time and he suffered a lot. Mm-hmm. So he wanted to make it free for people. Nice. Yeah.

But, uh, oh yes. I'm also putting music there as well. I'm gonna start to activate my account because I still use it every day and I love it.

Um, oh my gosh. And I'm still on it too.

Nice.

I haven't put up a new, new course in a long time, but I'm gonna continue doing that. You should. I love that. You should.

Yeah, you should because people really like them. Your courses. Yeah.

Thank you. I love Insight Timer. The founder is actually very, um, it's from his heart. Mm.

I can see that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Pablo, you are multi-talented. Thank you. I love seeing you. Hugs to you. Oh, thanks. And I can't wait to see you in person. Yes. Thank you for being here and, uh, for being your gorgeous self. You're amazing person.

Thank you, Dr. Brown.

And I love seeing how you're developing.

Aw. Well, thank you very much.

Love it.

I love being here. Thank you for inviting me, and I hope that I'll be here soon.

Definitely. We're gonna keep in touch.

Awesome.

Bye. Okay. Bye, Pablo. Thank you. Be well. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. Head on over to mindbodyspace.com/podcast to sign up for our email list to get the latest tips and to send us your questions. While you are there, check out our courses and products on time, brain, and stress for kids and parents. Thanks for joining us.