#238 Processing Relationship Anxiety with Dr. Nicole Cain

If you are looking for even more help and guidance on your breakup, I have a few different options for you to take your healing to the next level. I have four different online courses depending on what stage of the breakup that you're in from beginning all the way into moving on after heartbreak. Or you can bundle all of my courses together and use the code podcast to get 25 off my course bundle.

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The goal of this show is to.

Provide support, hope tips and to remind you that above all, this too shall pass.

Welcome back to another episode of the Heal your Heartbreak podcast. Today I have Dr. Nicole Kane on the show. She is a pioneer in integrative approaches for mental and emotional wellness. She has a degree in clinical psychology training in EMDR and is licensed as a naturopathic physician in the state of Arizona. And we're talking about anxiety today. We're talking about specifically relationship anxiety and we talk about it, I guess from two different points of view. We're talking about how to process the anxiety from your past relationship and how to decipher what is yours that caused anxiety and what is your ex's that causes anxiety. She has a lot of great, really practical things that you can do to help reduce your anxiety in the moment. We also talk about moving forward into new relationships of at what point do I can I disclose to someone that I'm dating what I went through with my ex? How do I handle boundaries? And she has a lot of, again, really great tangible frameworks on how to better choose a partner. Better trust yourself. So I loved our convo. We both agreed we could have continued talking for quite a while. So Nicole's book Panic Proof comes out today. So head to the Show Notes to order the book and you'll see an email address there. If you forward your proof of purchase to her team, you will get a month's free of her membership site. So please enjoy. Dr. Nicole Cain, welcome Dr. Nicole Caine to the Heal your Heartbreak podcast. Very excited to have you on and talk about this unique but very common and relatable form of anxiety. So thank you so much for coming on.

I'm really happy to be here. Love your work. Grateful to get to share with your audience.

Thank you. Thank you. So I know your specialty is anxiety.

In general.

And I'm curious what made you, or like, what interested you in the specific realm of relationship anxiety? Because I, I think that anxiety is obviously something we talk about a lot, but I do think a lot of people, me included, have experienced a very, very intense relationship relational anxiety. So what, what kind of drew you to that area?

Yeah, I think drawn to that from the very beginning. I came from a family where my role in the family was to try to soothe my parents and make them happy. So I think that I was sort of groomed in a sense to be very relationship focused. It's kind of how I've existed. And when I would experiment with different techniques, I was really observant of, okay, so if I fawn in this way, what happens? Or if I use these words of affirmation, what is the result? Or if they're angry or anxious, if I get them a cup of water or a cup of tea or do something silly, what are the results of that? But as you can imagine, that's not a healthy way to grow up. And I found that I was really silencing my own truth by kind of like play doh. Becoming what other people needed me to be. And that led to a lot of self exploration, a lot of curiosity, a giant meltdown. You and I were talking before the conversation began about how sometimes we just hit this critical mass where we can't continue functioning in the way that we were in the environment that we were, and everything just sort of collapses. And so that was a process for me of shedding what I had been brought up in and then sort of asking the questions of what do I believe? Can we heal from anxiety? Can we individuate and what does that mean for our relationships? Because now that I'm doing this personal evolution, I'm not the same shape of puzzle piece I was and it doesn't fit anymore. And so that started the process of really trying to reevaluate my relationships and how me changing was suddenly changing that dynamic for the better in some cases, but for the worse than others.

Yeah. If you don't mind me asking, what did it look like, let's say as you started dating and being in romantic relationships, what did that kind of grooming that happened as you were growing up, how did that translate into more adult relationships?

I actually haven't ever talked about this on a. On a podcast conversation before. It's a. It's personal in that I feel really grateful for the experience now, being in my 40s, looking back on it, but for so long, there's so much shame in that. And going into my relationship, I was from third grade. I would, like, lay in bed and pray for my soulmate. I was so desperate for a relationship, for a partnership that would meet my needs that weren't being met by my family. And then when I got my, like, first real partner, my first real boyfriend, I was so codependent. And I'm thinking back now, I'm like, oh, my God. This, like, teenage boy was holding all this pressure, which was in my mind at the time. I was like, he doesn't love me enough. Why is. He said he'd be here, but it's four hours later and he's dawdling at home. And so I was bringing in all these patterns and putting all this pressure on the relationship and then really feeling hurt. And my attachment was insecure and feeling really devastated when it didn't work out. And so I found myself kind of going into these patterns which we talk about in psychology. We call it reenactment. So we'll reenact these familiar patterns until we stick, as you would maybe describe, like a stick in a bicycle spoke, something that will interrupt that spinning and a spiraling. And so in the beginning, I was. I was creating really annoying relationship patterns. And I'm. It's, like, fun to look back on, but also cringe.

Yeah, I get that. I totally. I've been there. I get that. Yeah, yeah.

Attachment thing is interesting.

Yeah. I mean, it's. It's something that I've always been curious about. And, like, I've had different attachment people on, and it's always like, okay, are some people. Does everyone have the capacity to be anxious when Within a relationship with a certain person? You know, because I do think, and I could be wrong, but I do think there are people who really do bring out the anxiety in you. So when people say, like, oh, it's. It's just my responsibility, quote, unquote, control my anxiety, I don't know if that's necessarily true. Because I do think there are certain personalities that like, wouldn't don't work for certain people, and that's okay, you know. And I think sometimes when we are more anxious in relationships, we probably do attract people that reinforce that I could be wrong. But that's kind of my like, armchair theory on the thing is like, I've been really anxious in relationships and I've been, you know, in my marriage. I'm not anxious, which, thank God. But you know, I think some of it depends on the work I've done and then some of it also depends on like the kind of person that I'm with.

Validate that so much. And when I was doing emdr, I was doing my own work on this and I was with Paul, who I ended up marrying, and he's been my partner and it's been an amazing partnership. But at that time I was going through therapy, we were dating, and I was like, I don't think this is the person for me. And it was because it was so different and so unfamiliar and my parts were being activated by that. It's like, okay, I am looking for this energy. This energy feels safe, this energy feels familiar even though it's chaotic. And so a familiar terrible experience felt safer than an unfamiliar and maybe objectively better relationship. And so I think that we sometimes when we are looking for the opportunities, kind of taking a personal power approach from it is I'm looking for these opportunities to perhaps heal or somatically re experience this because it's giving me data about myself and to kind of echo what you said, which I think was so brilliant, is that if we're state of fear and anxiety, that's going to impact who we're attracted to and who's attracted to us. And so I really appreciate what you're saying about the different dynamics and how those relationship dynamics may be anxiety provoking or actually anxiety healing.

Totally. Yeah. And I know that's something that you talk a lot about is the EMDR process. Can you just give. I'm such a believer. And I went through it, but I also know when you're going through it, it's so intense. I was just talking to my girlfriend the other day and she's like, so I just started EMDR on this and I was like, are you okay? Because it's very like. I remember I would have to block out the rest of the day after I was done, because it was. I was just done for. So can you just talk a little bit about what EMDR therapy is?

Yeah, it stands for Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing therapy. It was created by Francine Shapiro in the 80s, and it is the best form of therapy that we have for helping us heal not only the mind, but also the body and the nervous system. Because trauma, stress, adversity doesn't just affect our logical parts of the brain where, oh, you shouldn't be anxious because this plane is safe. Well, the body doesn't always get that message. And so when we do emdr, what happens is the clinician will get your history, get your story, what it is that you want to work on. And maybe it is relationships. Maybe you keep getting stuck in these patterns which are activating you, and you feel upset and you feel scared or you feel stressed, or maybe you're in an abusive relationship after abusive relationship, and it's just. You want to see. Stop it. You want to figure out what that could look like. So you describe your history, describe your story. And then as they do the therapy, what they'll have you do is they'll have you bring up an image from a memory or a story, and then they'll provide bilateral stimulation. And so traditionally, the research was done where there's a light bar and you rotate your eyes left and right as you. At the same time is think about that memory. Or you can hold buzzers, which will vibrate alternatingly left and right. And the research is just ridiculous in terms of how significantly effective this treatment is, from one end of the spectrum of just, like, horrible combat PTSD all the way to the opposite end of the spectrum of, like, I feel a little bit of performance anxiety when I go on stage. And it can help everything in between, all ages, from, you know, somebody has to be able to communicate. So Ana Gomez works with children, which is different, but, you know, they're old enough to be able to communicate all the way through adulthood.

It's amazing. I mean, I am such an advocate for it. I did. I would sit knee to knee with my therapist, and she would tap my hands and. And I would have my eyes closed, which was really powerful for me because she had said, like, I can tell you're someone who would change what you're saying based on how you see me. So she's like, I want to take myself kind of out of the picture, and I just want you to be in your body. And it was. It was very powerful. And I do think that helped a lot with. I did mine specifically on some trauma, and. But I do think it helped anxiety. It made me feel more safe in my relationship.

I would say, yeah, well, and the trauma piece that you were saying is when we go. I won't say if, because we all go through trauma.

Yeah.

Is when we go through a traumatic experience. Our mind, our body, our nervous system and all of the other systems in our body will adapt to change. Your thoughts, your feelings, your behaviors, your cravings, your impulses, all of everything will adapt to make you better suited to be in that continued trauma. Unless your body is able to and your mind is able to and everything is able to continue adapting. And so maybe if we go back to my story, it's like living in Alaska and it's really cold and I didn't have this secure emotional attachment. Maybe some of your listeners resonate with this and their formative relationships. Maybe they didn't have the secure attachment they needed. So we adapt and it's like putting on a big winter coat. And then we grow up and some of us move away from our families. And so maybe it's like moving to Southern California and it's hot there and your environment is different, your circumstances are different. But symptoms can arise when we don't continue to adapt and take that coat off. And so then we find ourselves suffering from symptoms of a sticky adaptation. And so that could cause issues in our relationships, issues in our health, issues in our well being, our hormones, everything. All of those systems have to get re equilibrated. And emdr, among other therapies, is a really useful tool for that.

That's a very, very good metaphor and what it made me think of, which I was going to ask you about later, but I'll just jump into it now. But one thing that I wanted to talk to you about is this. Someone's coming out of a break.

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Out of the ordinary breakup. Whether it was like a toxic relationship or maybe just oh my gosh, I thought I was in love with this person and one day they just decided they didn't want to be with me, which I would argue is very traumatic. And then they're dating again and they're with someone new. But like, what if they just do this again? Like I Don't feel like I can trust myself. I feel anxious to get too close because what if this, you know, what if I'm blindsided again? There's just so many scary thoughts and anxious feelings that come with being in a new relationship after going through a significantly hard breakup. And I feel like it is similar to the, the coat thing. You still have this coat on even though you are in Southern California. So what does that look like of just shifting environment, shifting people and trying to get your body, your brain, your nervous system to catch up?

Yeah. I think that the body knows long before our brain does. And you know, when we have a really awful experience like that we're with someone, we believe it's our love of our life, and then they just sideswipe you. And then maybe even you wanted to get married and you had those conversations and then they're just like, nope, I'm out. And you're just stunned. And then maybe they even go and they marry somebody else. Yeah. And you're just, you're left and you're like stuck in the wreckage and you're like, is it me? Is it everybody? What do I do? Yeah, that's traumatic.

It's super traumatic. And it's sometimes easy. Like, I know for me, sometimes it's easier to believe it's me because at least I have some semblance of control over myself. But then it's bad because then I'm totally beating myself up for, quote unquote, ruining the relationship. And when it's the whole world, that is terrifying because you don't like, it feels like you can't trust anyone. So, yeah, that's a very scary place to be in.

In some cases, anxiety can be detrimental for our relationships. Oftentimes our world does get smaller. And so it's like finding the nuance in that conversation between what is my onus, what am I being held accountable to, doing the work on and healing and reprocessing so that I can show up as my best self in my future relationship. So what is mine, what do I own and what is theirs? And how do I make sure that I'm not Venn. Diagramming that or just in a sense of having control or personal power is just. I'll just take it all. I'll take all of that responsibility. You were fine and perfect and lovely and look, you married this person so they liked you. You must be great.

You look happy on Instagram.

Yeah. You have all these posts, you have the kids that I thought we were going to have, the house I Thought we were going to have. She's a big shiny rock I thought I was going to have must be me. And it's, as you said, that feeling of, of that extreme, I am out of control or I must take control. But then there's. That's not honest in either end. Right. It's a relationship. It's a person with whom we relate. That relating is that joining or interaction. And so the first step, I think is, is allowing ourselves to have the personal power of responsibility of like, okay, how could I have shown up more authentically as me? What healing do I need to do? Like you said, you're a big advocate of emdr. I admire that. You're willing to look and you're willing to do the work and you're willing to question. This whole podcast that you have is all about that, this process of exploration. So you've owned your part. And the other really cool thing about you owning your part is then when you go into future relationships, you have so much more understanding and awareness of the different components of who you are, why you feel the way you feel, the way that you react. And then you can provide that information to your partner so that they can understand you better too. And that can create more of a collaborative relationship. Like we're companions on this journey together as opposed to these two people on pedestals that are going to hurt each other and disappoint each other if there's a snafu.

I love that. I feel like I have like three follow up questions on deck in my brain. I love this conversation. So going back to kind of finding that Venn diagram of what's mine, what's theirs, how do you recommend going through that? Because I feel like it's. It's very hard to be objective. And I feel like especially the times that we tend to get into that is when we are very worked up and we want to figure it out. And, you know, I know for me, my thinking is not clear at that point. Do you have any tips on how to kind of objectively sit down and see what's, what am I going to own, but then what? Also, what was out of my control and what's theirs to own?

You just hit the nail on the head. Let's talk about neuroscience for a second.

Okay.

So when we get activated, when we get anxious or we get excited, even when our body goes into a state we call autonomic arousal, maybe you've heard of it as fight, flight, freeze, we release all of these chemicals, cortisol and adrenaline, and all These different chemicals that catapults our body into, we must escape danger. And when we're excited and when we're scared and hurt and activated chemicals are really similar. And what we see happening in the brain is that when we go into autonomic arousal, we lose functioning or there's less activity in the logical parts of the brain. So I'm pointing, if you're listening to the audio, I'm pointing to my forehead, which, behind that is your frontal cortex, your prefrontal cortex. Those are the parts of the brain that are more rational and analytical. And so if you're in an emotional activated state, you're not even going to have access to those resources that are going to help you figure out the answer to the questions you're asking. And you'll find in the research too that the emotional brain becomes more activated. So your feelings are bigger and your tools for personal control and power are smaller. So the first step is we have to get your logical brain back on board. And we talk about this in terms of how can we ground the brain, ground the body, turn down the amygdala, turn down those automatic fight, flight, freeze feelings. And once we can turn those down, then the logical brain gets onboarded. And once your logical brain is onboarded, then you can begin the process of examination. So let's make this tangible. So let's say that someone's listening to this and they're like, okay, I'm in the throes of a breakup. This is really upsetting. Was it me? Was it them? I don't know. Dr. Nicole is saying that I have to calm my nervous system and calm my brain, and I'm just so upset. What can I do? So tangibly, what can you do? So anything that stimulates the body in a empowering, calming, grounding way. And so we're thinking about exercise, but the type of exercise will depend on your individual body. And so if, when you get your heart rate up and you exercise, like running on a treadmill or doing high intensity interval training, if that makes you more activated and it just sends out more adrenaline, then you want to do more grounding, calming exercise, like maybe like a yoga nidra class or qigong or going for a walk outside side. So exercise. And then I also really love using temperature in the senses. And so if you're in a panic attack, my biggest, quickest hack for stopping that, if you're just, if you got the text or you got the message, or you're having a flood of memories of the breakup, or you see an Instagram post. Cold water on the face can be really quick and effective. But you know, dialectical behavioral therapy. Marsha Linehan was like, just stick your face in a bucket of ice water. I don't know about you, but I spent like 12 minutes putting my makeup on today. Like, I tried. So I don't want to like, also I don't like carry around a bucket of ice water. Yeah, like, hold on, you guys just dunk my face. Give me a second. One second here. And so there's. You can get. If you go camping, I don't because I like climate controlled. That's fine. But if you're a camper or you have a first aid kit, you can get these chemical packs online where when you shake them up, they get cold. And so you could use it. And so I always keep like a couple of those in my desk or in my bag. If I'm gonna fly, I'll put that in my carry on. So if I get activated, you just shake it up, put it on your face for 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off. That's a good hack. Another tangible hack would be smell. Essential oils are great, but if you're sensitive to smells, you can apply them to the bottom of your foot, which is really interesting.

Interesting.

And yeah, so that's why I've never.

Gotten into oils because I'm like, the smell makes like the smell is stuck in my nose for like three days, it feels like. But that's a good. I like that. I'll try that.

Especially if you have an oil like lavender that's been studied to actually have a small enough molecular size where it can absorb into the body. And so we've seen that lavender oil can be quite effective topically and inhal. And I don't like sniffing them either. And I don't like flying. And I'm not going to be like whipping out oils and making everybody tolerate that. So I'll just put a little like swipe on the bottom of my foot, put on my socks and tennies and go. So those are two. I have tons of these. You can find them if you go to my website and look up panic pack. There's a bunch.

I was looking at that post on your Instagram. Like the straw. Like, yes, the straw. I love that. Yeah, I love that. I have a. I have a two and a half year old who, you know, has really good emotional regulation right now.

Such big feelings he has.

Yeah, he's so good at staying calm. But I think it was a cartoon. We learned it. But like pretending to blow out birthday candles. We'll do that. Like, okay, let's blow out the birthday candles, you know, try to bring him down. So, but yeah, I love the like tangible tips. I also remember, I think it was like a year ago, it was going to, to like ice your, the nerve on your chest. And I actually tried that like a few months ago and it, it did work.

Yeah. Vegas nerve hacks.

Yeah, the Vegas nerve.

Yeah, the best.

Yeah, yeah.

So for those who are listening that aren't familiar, like what is, is this the slot machines in Nevada? No, this is, this is Vegas V A G U S which is wandering in Latin. And this is the nerve that goes all the way from your brain down to your gut. And this is a bi directional highway that your body uses to communicate information. And the research says that your gut actually does most of the talking. And so when we're getting anxious or activated, we can stimulate our vagus nerve with lots of different things, including the cold, as you just said. And has your son ever like, when he gets mad, do you ever see him just like bear down and his face gets really red?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's hacking his vagus nerve.

So funny.

Kids inherently knows.

Yeah, kids know way more than we do because they don't know anything.

Yeah, they're not overthinking it. Right. Or like just like getting online and scrolling and being like, oh my gosh, what do I do? I just saw this post and I'm freaking out.

Yeah.

So as you said, that very first step is we have to get our logical brand on board. And the obstacle to that is the nervous system override. And so that's, that very first step is to calm the nervous system. Vagus nerve hacks, getting to the body, grounding, exercising, anything that you can do to get back in your body. So that's, that's number one most important.

And I think too, I just want to touch on the point again. I mean, I just feel like you can't really trust your thoughts when you're in that activated state. State. Because the things that, you know, speaking from my experience, like the things that I will tell myself are not, not true. And as much as I can like.

Maybe think that they're not true at.

The moment, they feel very real. So just knowing, okay, I'm activated, this is not my best thinking. This is not necessarily even me talking. This is, you know, this is my anxiety or this is, you know, something else.

And I love what you just said. This isn't even me talking. And so in emdr and other therapies, for example, internal family systems. We talk about parts of ourselves. And so if you've ever been indecided about what you want to have for lunch, you're like, man, part of me wants a veggie burger. Part of me wants a giant taco. Like, there's different parts of yourselves. Right. And it can be as easy as that or as complicated as, I love this person, and. And I also hope they get hit by a bus. Right? Yeah. So we have different parts of ourselves. And so when we have an anxious thought, the thought isn't as important as what is underneath that is causing that thought. That is data. So if I have an anxious thought and I think to myself, I am so worthless. He doesn't love me. He left me. He married somebody else. It's because I'm. I'm a piece of trash. Okay? So we know that our brain thinks things and our anxious thoughts aren't true because it's just emotional, it's releasing. But we can use that anxious thought to say, okay, where did that come from? It's like following. It's like if you have a big ball of Christmas lights and you see the end, and you're like, where does this go? Yeah, you could follow it in. And so when I've done that kind of work and I've had really bad thoughts, oftentimes they're things that people said to me when I was younger or things that my younger self may have thought because she didn't understand what was going on. And so I think that the thoughts are more interesting. They're not as interesting in terms of fact versus fiction, but they're more interesting in terms of, ooh, this is data about what needs healing. And we can figure out how interesting.

I love that. Yeah, I like that approach of getting. Getting curious about the thoughts instead of taking them as fact or instead of being like, get out of my head thoughts kind of a thing, because that's not losing battle that we're going into of being like, stop thinking about this.

Just stop thinking about your ex.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I want to go back to what my other question that I had on deck from when we were talking before about gathering that data about yourself, what sparks that anxiety, and then going into a new relationship. I know for a lot of people there's this fine line of, I don't want to make this person responsible for my anxiety. However, I also, you know, if I'm going to be with this person, I want them to know what's going on internally. So they can at least know what's going on or be reassuring. But it's that fine line of what do I bring up and what do I just keep to myself the longer I went in I say dating, I I got to a place where I'm more of an open book of hey, like I need commitment at some point. Like I'm not here for a situationship, I'm not here for this, like this is what I want kind of a thing. And I used to be so scared to be appear needy from that. But I know a lot of people struggle with that. Like at what point do I bring up my past relationship trauma? At what point point do I tell them that, you know, when I don't hear from them for a full day, it makes me anxious. So what are your thoughts on that?

I think about this in the image of a house of boundaries. And so people in your life must satisfy the criteria to get into why.

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House, which I'll explain with that image is in order for them to even be worthy of getting the that information. And I started to conceptualize this. I was working with a girl, she was going to an Ivy league school and there were no boundaries. It was like open concept psychology. Like everybody said everything about all of their thoughts and then there was a lot of drama. There's a lot of pain that came from that. And so we talked about we don't want to put everybody in an open concept room where every woman free for herself, every man free for himself. But how can we figure out the different nuance levels of that? And so think of the image of a floor plan of a house. You have a sidewalk, a front porch, and then you have a door. And then I always put a velvet rope in front of the door like you're going into a club. And then you have the living room, a kitchen and a bedroom. So let's talk about this. So the front porch is for people that you don't know very well, like the grocery store person. Or the mail delivery person or the grubhub person, whatever. And so these are people that you haven't known for very long and you can have casual conversations with them. You could be really friendly and then that's that you don't disclose anything really deep and personal at Trader Joe's checkout just because they're nice. Right. But then we have the cable and that Velvet cable. I call this the cable criteria. And so any deeper of a relationship, this person has to settle the cable criteria. So that's C, A, B, L, E, which is a mnemonic. So in order for someone to get into your house is they have to, number one, they have to be communicative. They have to be willing to communicate their thoughts and feelings with you and they have to be open to you doing that for them. And so if there are people in your life and they just blob, they just over disclose and they don't ever listen. That's not two way communication. So they don't get to come in because you're not going to trust them. Right.

Okay.

Yeah.

A is awareness. And so this is super helpful. So there's these people and they always get, they get bypasses. It's like, oh, they're just kind of aloof or she's in her own world or don't worry about him, he means well. He's just kind of distracted or they're really busy. Nope. If they don't have awareness of your needs and their own needs, they don't get to come in your house. The next one is boundaries. If you have somebody who doesn't honor their own boundaries, it is unlikely that they are going to honor yours. And so we don't want boundary pushers over sharers under shares. If somebody, you know, like that guy, that teenage guy that I was dating, he said he would be there in an hour. Four hours later he wasn't. So he didn't have good boundaries. Maybe he shouldn't have told me he would be there and he was just saying yes ma'. Am. Or maybe he just didn't care and so he shouldn't have been in my house. That would have saved me a lot of heartache. Listen. As someone who can pay attention and listen to what you have to say, like really listen. Right. We teach about in emotion focused couples therapy about when somebody talks to you is using non verbals. I'm going to angle my body towards you. I'm going to look at your face, I'm going to look in your eyes, I'm going To ask for clarification. I'm going to put my phone away, I'm going to turn the TV off. I'm going to stop and focus. And so that's L, and then E is empathy. And so if that person, if you're always having to prove yourself, or if you're always having to defend yourself or justify yourself, and you don't see that level of empathy, then they don't get into your house. So let's say that you have somebody in your life, you're dating them, they satisfied all of those cable criteria, and now they get to go in the house. Are you ready for the next room?

Yeah.

Okay, so now we're in the living room. The living room is where you can have some pizza, you share a fun board game, you watch a movie. You're just hanging out, talking, but you're not getting any deeper than that. You know, you have a relationship with them. This is like your girlfriends. These are your trusted friends, your trusted guy friends. And then after at least a month, so this means you can't meet someone today, put them in your living room tomorrow. So after at least a month, then they can go into your kitchen. And this is where it starts getting really lovely. This is where you can have some deeper conversations. You can have some conversations maybe about your spirituality or your politics, or you can have conversations about maybe something that you're struggling with, and they can share that with you, too. And then the last room is the bedroom. And this is your soul. This is intimacy. This is like all of your vulnerabilities. Some of us don't have somebody, even our partner, they don't get to go in the bedroom. Maybe it's just your dog, right? And others, we do have a partner that feels that they can hold that really sacred space and they can be in your bedroom. And so this starts to create an idea of how much do I disclose to who and when is. Okay, so I'm dating this person. They totally rock and roll all the way through the living room. I feel like we're kitchen people. And then if that works and it feels good and it feels honoring and reciprocative, then you could start to disclose more of that as you have with your partner. But if you start to disclose some of that and that person either is like, ooh, I'm not here for that, or they say something really harmful, then you have to go back to the cable criteria and give them that feedback of, can I communicate more to you what I'm about? Or can you be empathetic or do we need to really just put you back in the living room and not push you in that direction? So I know I've kind of been monologuing a lot, so I would love to hit the volleyball back over into your side.

No, I love that. I'm very fascinated by this and I think it's such a great visual and it also, I mean I love checklist things. So I think when you just say oh, and you know, you know, but will you, you know, when you.

Yeah.

When you're not in a place where you can feel very trusting of yourself, it's hard to, to go to. Oh, and you know, like you'll know when the right person comes in or you' when you can trust someone and when people have asked me what you know, how can I trust someone again? And I can't. It's like I would love if after you go through one bad heartbreak, that's your one bad heartbreak and the next person sent your way is not going to hurt you. But that's just not the case. It's like no guarantees of getting hurt, but I think the only thing we can do is learn how to trust ourselves. You know, and the more we trust ourselves, the more we'll feel comfortable. The more we'll feel comfortable knowing when someone meets the cable criteria or we'll feel more comfortable pushing someone back out of the kitchen into the living room. You know, it's. I think that's a big thing too, of if you feel unworthy or anxious. It's hard to say. Well, maybe they didn't really mean that or maybe they were just having a hard day. You know, I, I should try giving them another chance. It's, I think there's a lot of that goes, goes into it. So I love the kind of step by step criteria.

Yeah. What is your take on. I could go by both ways with this. I'm curious what your take would be on in partnership, communicating your house of boundaries with the person with whom you desire to become more intimate. What do you think?

So that's a really good question. So I'd say first and foremost, actions speak louder than words. That's always my thing when people say, oh, should I communicate to my ex that I'm going no contact? I'm like, it doesn't necessarily matter as long as you're actually doing no contact, you know, So I think actions speak louder than words. However, I also think if we're, you know, talking about two way communication, sometimes I do want to say what a boundary is. Because it honestly will help me stay more accountable to it if it's this. Like, that's why I think it's important to share boundaries. You know, I talk so much about exes with friends because if it's just in my head, like, I would love to think we would all be super accountable towards ourselves, but that's not always the case. So sometimes sharing it out loud, even sometimes hearing yourself say it out loud, can create more of a thing where you're going to stick to it. So I'd say that's what my thought is. But at the end of the day, actions speak louder than words. If I say, hey, this is my boundary, and then I don't stick to it, doesn't matter.

I think that's so insightful. As you were talking, I'm thinking about perhaps it depends on what room your person's in too. And so if somebody's on the front porch, you don't want to be like, just so you know, you don't get to come into my emotional house, that's fine. You stay out here. And then we weaponize it, as opposed to if you have somebody who's like, kind of that kitchen, living room, and it's like, can I share with you a little bit about my needs and my dynamics that I'm learning about in relationships? Just so you know what to expect also so that you can help you be accountable, but help me be accountable, too, because we're in this together. And so I like that you're kind of putting that. That nuance in it. And then, like, really, like, your actions speaking louder than words is like, not only are we talking about this really fun, interesting concept, but I'm showing up. And if they know, okay, when I stand up and yell at her, she's going to leave the room. She knows that I know that. So then when it happens, it's not a greater battle, because this is the.

Expectation a hundred percent. I think it also comes down to motive in some ways, because I think sometimes if you're going to express a boundary or mention something that has hurt you in the past, I'm thinking of the example of, okay, bringing up how an ex had hurt you. If you're bringing it up because you're hoping that the person you're with is going to say, I would never do that to you. I'm not that kind of person. And you're hoping that they're going to take that off your plate. I don't think that's fair. If you're just sharing it Again, to like, you guys are, you know, you are at that point where you're talking about relationship histories and lessons learned and things like that. I think that's okay. Of, yeah, this person did that and I, you know, I've learned that I'm just never going to put myself through that again kind of a thing. But if you're expecting them to take that fear anxiety from you, I don't think that's fair to either person because they can't take that away from you. And, you know, you can't have that expectation because you'll end up disappointed. Disappointed girl.

That is so brilliant. That's so wise. Because that's, again, that's us taking our power. Right? It's like, yeah, I'm responsible for taking care of me and meeting my own needs, and I want to be in relationship with you and I want to do this together. But really, ultimately, like, I've got this. I've got me. Just so you know, this is kind of how this will look and I want to grow and learn with you. And I'll take feedback, but, like, really, I'm responsible for my emotions and not requiring that you take on that burden of being responsible for my emotions. Yes.

Yeah, I love that. I think that is like an. I think those are some good. And it's again, it's like not exact of when you can share that or not of when should you speak your boundaries. I think it comes down to, do I have good intentions with this.

It.

You know, has this person shown me that they're capable of receiving this? And then the thing is too, it's. It's always this is what I tell people when they feel, oh, I'm nervous to get back into dating. It's like, you can start dating and then you can be like, nope, I'm not ready. And you can kind of go back on. It's not like you're on a date and you sign this contract with Bumble or something that you're gonna stay in this dating space for the next 365 days. It's. You can adjust anytime you want. And some of it is just in the beginning, like a learning lab of, okay, I express my boundaries, and I didn't love how I did it. I'm going to change how I do it next time. So I think, you know, it's nothing set in stone.

Yeah, I love that. And you're bringing up. I think an interesting movement in the romantic dating world is back in the 50s, you would go on lots of dates with people and then there was this sort of societal shift where it was like you marry your high school sweetheart or you're, you're monogamous and then it's very serious. Like all my dating relationships, I was like in it for marriage. It's like. And I think that partially came from some of my, my family's faith based cultural conditioning.

Yeah.

But then we're seeing this sort of shift to non monogamy where people who, who desire to date multiple people, they have to put a label on it because we're such a monogamous culture. And now people are like. And so I feel like what you're, you're doing is you're giving us permission to not have to be so serious about it. Like, I'm gonna date you and I'm signing a contract with Bumble and like this is it. As opposed to giving it time, dating this person, maybe dating someone else, if that's your thing. Not having to put these like rigid criteria around yourself and then giving yourself time to make your house of boundaries and figure out does this person fit, if so, where are they fitting right now? And then knowing that that may be a living, breathing, evolving relationship.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's so important because it, number one, it makes it less scary and daunting to feel like I have to be this badass boundary keeper person before I even think about dating someone to. I have some ideas and I'll see how it feels as I go. And we'll make, you know, we'll make adjustments because at the end of the day, that's what relationships are, is they're teaching us what we like and what we don't like and what works and what feels good and what doesn't feel good. So dating is just a small microcosm of that.

Yeah, absolutely. One other tip I know as we're, we're coming to the end here and I, I wanted to share is knowing more about parts of our partner can be so game changing. And I'll give an example. So my husband is a counselor. We both met in counseling school. So you can imagine what it's like in our house. We're both like, you're. That's a reaction formation. You're projecting. That's total denial or whatever we're saying. Right?

Yeah.

And so I know that when he gets really stubborn about something, if I don't follow it up the right way and he's just like, it's really stubborn about something and starts acting kind of like an immature little childish kind of immature little Jerk is that I know about a part of him that when he was younger, like he's done work on this kind of behavior that he experiences sometimes I know where that comes from. And so I can hold him accountable and be like, hey Paul, I think your 12 year old self is getting activated right now. And then he'll be like, oh, that's true. And so then that data provides him an opportunity to do some deeper healing. Be like, okay, what about the circumstance activated me? This person sees this part of me. She knows that I'm not a 12 year old. I'm not like a. It's not like what is that is big. I think the movie is called Big where he's like a kid stuck in a grown up. Yeah, I know that he's not a man baby, but he does have parts of themselves that he's doing work with. And so I think that as you were saying, like you find that person that that satisfies the cable criteria there in your kitchen and you want to do that deeper work with them is knowing about the different faceted parts of ourselves and our partners can really help us to support each other as we hold ourselves responsible for that inner work. So that's just like a little advanced kind of trauma tip there.

And is that. That's the internal family system. What's it called?

Intern. He popularized it. Internal family systems. But we see parts is in ego state work and in emdr.

Okay. It's so interesting. I was at like a birthday dinner a few months ago and I was sitting across from someone who does internal family systems. And then like a month ago my. One of my good friends is getting certified in that. So it's like very. A lot of it. I like had never heard the term as of a few months ago. And now all of a sudden I'm forbidding you.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. For those who are listening, internal family systems is a great way to start. He wrote the book no bad Parts and it's small, easy to read book. So if you're like, what was that? How do I know if my husband's being a 12 year old teenage boy? The book's a good start.

Okay, that's amazing. And speaking of books, your new book, Panic Proof, when this comes out, it'll have come out today. So super exciting. So I hope everyone goes out and gets the book. I'll put the link to order in the show notes. Can you share how else people can connect with you and can you only work with people in certain states or what is your, like, client situation?

Yeah, you can find me on Instagram. I'm DrNicole Kane and I have a membership. So my heart was to create a space where I can empower people with information that isn't cost prohibitive for most people. And so it's a really low cost membership. And all of these teaching materials, I have like the house of boundaries and they're in a worksheet. You can print it out, draw on it. I explain everything I teach about attachment parts work. There's a private group where I answer questions all the time. We do lives and so there's information about that. And right now, if you buy the book Panic Proof and then forward the receipt to my team, we'll give you a month for free. And the membership is amazing as a thank you to your audience. So let them know. I will let us know how you found us.

Okay.

And say, yeah, we heard the this podcast. And then we'll give you a free month.

Amazing. Okay, well, I'll put the email address and the link and all your stuff in the show notes, but thank you so much. This was really fun. I feel like I could have kept talking for a long time.

This was so fun. Thank you so much for having me.

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