66. Is Holistic Medicine in Danger?

Welcome to the holistic Inner Balance podcast with Dr. Nicole Cain and happy healthy.

Hadley your go to resource for natural mental health and wellness strategies so that you can become the expert of your own emotional and physical well being.

Merging modern science with ancient wisdom.

All right, everyone, this is Dr. Nicole and I'm here with Hadley.

Hello. Good to be back.

I have a kind of controversial conversation I want to have today. Are you down?

So down. Let's do it.

Because, you know, Hadley and I just sit here and we pontificate back and forth and I brought up this question and we started having a conversation and I was like, we should just record this.

Exactly. I'm all about it. Let's do it.

So the question is, is holistic medicine in danger? That's a hard thing to ask. It's crazy to me that that's even a question or conversation.

Yeah, to me it's like, apparently this is a thing that people are really talking about a lot. Right. Is, you know, it's either or. It's like either science or holistic medicine. And you know, I used to be like really, really frustrated by this divide and it just made so much sense to me. That's why I went into Ayurveda is because it made sense to me to have more of a holistic view of the mind, body, even spirit approach rather than the more clinical and research based, which again, I'm actually a fan of. And since that first introduction to Ayurveda, and I was like, this is so much better, I've realized, no, actually they're both very valid and we can bring the two of them together, we can bring the science, the research, all of that in with Ayurveda. And actually there's a lot of really cool research being done that is, you know, is talking about how modern science is actually proving so much of Ayurveda and what the ancient Rishis and ancient Vedic texts have talked about for literally we don't even know how long. At least 5,000 years. Yeah. So it's really cool because modern science is bringing that in now. But there still is this, like, does Ayurveda work? Right? Like, or for you, does.

Holistic wellness, naturopathic medicine, herbalism.

Yeah, yeah. Homeopathy, all of these things. Yeah.

And you're able to kind of stand on that line, the juxtaposition between both sides and look and see that area where they overlap and it feels really obvious to you. And I love that you have a science background that you came from that science background. And I feel that I'm just like, kind of thinking out loud here. I just feel like it isn't economically viable in a capitalist society to have the ability to stand on that line and look at both.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, because like, if you have 10 patients who sign up for your program and all 10 of them get well, then suddenly that next year when your program re ups, you're out of money, you're out of clients. Right. Unless, of course, they tell all their friends. And then you have more people coming in, which is great. But not to sound jaded, but in a society where health is capitalized on, we see that if you can keep those people in a state of disease, that you'll keep bringing in revenue. And there's this story about a doctor who was working in a liver transplant. Transplant hospital, and he was hired to keep people alive long enough to receive their liver transplants.

Wow.

He used three things, ala, milk thistle and selenium. And so many people got better and got off the transplant list that it wasn't economically viable for them to keep him on board because you can't make money doing liver transplants if people are getting off the list. And so they fired him.

Wow.

So this is like a little microchasm of what I feel like is a very large economic issue where, you know, we have this whole controversy, especially in psychology. You know, my passion is mental health. And we have this juxtaposition between the American Psychiatric association and then the American Psychological association, and then they can't agree about the relevance of trauma. So you have Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, who wrote the Body Keeps Score, an amazing book. And he's coming at it, and he's coming at it from a trauma informed perspective. And so he's proposing to the American Psychiatric association add complex trauma to the DSM so that we can diagnose and treat that. And they won't do it. No matter how many research articles, how much clinical evidence comes out, they won't do it. Because there isn't, according to Bessel van der Kolk.

Right.

There isn't a pill for complex trauma, but there is a pill for symptoms of complex trauma, like anxiety and depression. And so I'm curious about. Is holistic medicine in danger and why is that and what can we do about it? And so I'm kind of curious about your perspective as an. Are you. Are you Veda expert? What you see, if that is as big and glaring as it is as a naturopath.

Right. Yeah. And it actually also reminds me of another big and glaring Part of our culture, our society, which is diet culture and the diet industry, right, Is that they, you know, it's worth billions of dollars, and the more people are trying to go on diets. The psychology behind diets tends to keep you in a loop of you're on a diet and then you're not on the diet anymore, and then you're back on the diet because you gained weight or you don't look the way you want to look, or maybe you don't feel the way you want to feel, which awesome. Okay. But the diet industry has no incentive to get us out of that loop because the more we're doing their diets and buying their things that, you know, shakes and supplements and all of these things, which those can be great. But when we're on, like, the hamster wheel of that, it keeps us in there. And so it's very similar, I think. I mean, I see a very strong correlation. And really, what holistic medicine is trying to do and what Ayurveda, as part of the umbrella of holistic medicine is trying to do is get to the root. And so much of what we do in our society is just band A, right? It's just like, give me a pill or even just give me an herb. Right? Like, we can. Ayurveda can play into this too. Like, we've actually, this is something that is really common in Ayurveda right now, is that a lot of people just know Ayurveda as, like, different. Different herbs. And it's so. It's so fascinating because traditionally the herbs were kind of like, there to support the other behavior changes that people that practitioners were telling their patients to make. But now, even in India, so I've heard, anecdotally at least, is that there are a lot of practitioners who are just like the same as a Western doctor. You go in, they prescribe you an herb rather than prescribing you a pill. And so. And that has kind of become a lot more mainstream than the. Than like sitting with someone for a long period of time figuring out what the actual root of the issue is rather than just the symptom, and then treating the root rather than treating the symptom. So I think I see that a lot in Ayurveda. What about you? What do you. What do you see a lot in. In your practice?

It's funny that you say that, because we in naturopathic medicine, we have a spectrum of different philosophies. And one end is like green allopathy, which is exactly what you're describing is you're doing allopathic medicine, which is treating a disease with something else that could cause another disease or change the body state. You're addressing the pathology, but instead of using a pillow, you're using something natural. So as an example, somebody has a headache and they come in and they go to their standard allopathic doctor, and that allopathic doctor will tell them to take an acetaminophen. If you go to a green allopath, naturopathic doctor, or an Ayurveda practitioner who uses natural supplements, they may have the same idea. Okay, there's pain. I need to give them an anodyne. So I'm going to give them white willow bark or maybe something else that's cooling to the head. But on the other end of the spectrum in naturopathy, we have people who are completely on the other side of science, and they're more in, like, spirituality and intuition. And so then you have people on both ends of the spectrum. The more extreme people are having these giant conflicts about, well, you're not looking at the whole person. Well, you're not even paying any attention to science, and you're doing harm. Like you're putting a quartz crystal on someone's forehead to cure their cancer. And not to take a side on either, but both people. It feels equally outrageous then when we have conversations from each end of the spectrum invalidating the other, especially with respect to the metrics that they're using. You can't judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree. And I feel like that's a huge problem in science in its measuring of these different strategies and tools. And then there's this issue with some holistic practitioners who just throw out all of the science. They just don't care. They want to function on theory.

Right, Right.

So it's kind of interesting to hear that you're kind of seeing that sort of pill for an ill model or a supplement for a symptom model, even in your field where you're practicing.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really interesting. I think this is maybe a human characteristic that we tend to want to look at things in black or white. Right. And this is one of. One of the classes that I took in undergrad was about nature versus nurture, nature versus culture. And the conclusion basically of the class was like, it's not either or there is nuance. Like we. We have all of these false dichotomies in life in general where it's like it's either this or that. And really? No, there's. There's actually, there's room for all of it. And that's kind of where. That's sort of my philosophy on. On everything, on food. Like, you know, there aren't good or bad foods. There are foods that are beneficial for our bodies in certain circumstances. And, you know, maybe the. Maybe something is the medicine that you need right now. Right. Like, it's my philosophy on all sorts of health behaviors. You know, there is no good or bad. You know, there's no morality on it. And then. And then also we just need to take more of a nuanced perspective. I think in this debate, in. In every debate really is like, when you get into the nitty gritty, there isn't this. There isn't necessarily this, like, you're wrong, I'm right kind of thing. I personally don't think.

Do you think you're right about that?

Right.

I do too, by the way. But I hear what you're saying is that there's gotta be an area of gray and it doesn't make sense for it to be black and white. That there's gotta be some nuance.

Yeah. Well, the other piece is that Ayurveda. So this is where I see like, the most, like, differentiation, I guess, between Ayurveda and potentially also just like holistic medicine in general versus allopathic medicine and even just like scientific research in general right now, which I have a background in scientific research. Like, I very much respect it and love it. And that is that in scientific research, in order for things to be, like, statistically significant, we. We basically measure things on an average. Right. So we have to. We have to prove something based on, like, the most amount of people or like the average person. And we're trying to conclude that this, you know, medicine, we'll just say, like, it's a pill or something. This medicine is effective for the average person. So that we can then say it's effective, period. Right. My Ayurveda is actually like, there is no average person. So there is no one size fits all. Right. Which has become kind of a trendy term to say, like, there's no one size fits all. But actually in Ayurveda, it's very individual, individualized, and it's very like we have to look at the whole person. We have to look at their background, we have to look at the imbalances, their stage of life, all of these things, things that go into play in order to be able to say, well, this is the treatment that you need. The problem is that we can't prove that a lot of the time with our current Western scientific model. Because. Because that's just not the model. It's just a different way of looking at medicine. And neither are wrong or bad. Both are totally valid in whatever, you know, in the right circumstance. And so that's, I think, where some of the. Some of the argument comes in, because we're looking at it on completely different playing fields here.

So if I am an insurance provider and I'm looking at physician A and I'm looking at holistic practitioner B, right? And I have a patient, and the patient, let's say that they have chronic migraines, and so I look at practitioner A and they're recommending this medication. And then I look at all of the research, and there's tons and tons of research studies that says this works for the average person fairly reliably, and these are the side effects and this is the risk mitigation. And, you know, so I feel as an insurance company that this is probably an acceptable, reliable route to take. And then I look at clinician B, who uses 20 different types of things. There aren't any research studies that seem to line up and match with this particular patient. And I have no idea. Oh, and here's this other article over here of this rando that said it was dangerous and they ate 10 gallons of white willow bark and then died, like, whatever. And so we think of just like an insurance perspective that. That feels like a little bit more risky. And so then I'm the patient. And so then my insurance is saying, I put my stamp of approval on this. You don't have to pay extra beyond your insurance premium and your deductible for this, which, by the way, could be a lot for people. I'm gonna help you pay for this. Or you could just go cash pay for this uncertain thing that's over here. That's weird. So there's a psychology behind it, right?

Oh, absolutely, yeah. And, you know, sometimes you can't pay for that at all, even if you're like, I know that this is going to be more effective. I literally can't afford to do that. And I have to go with what my insurance is providing, which is. That just breaks my heart, you know, like, it's just so unfortunate. And yeah, the. The interesting piece of it is the lifestyle change things. I. There is also an argument that people are like, well, people just don't want to change. They just want a pill. I don't know that that's always true. I think People, especially now, I've seen it in the last five years, people have become so much more open to lifestyle changes. Even in the past, like, two years, people are like, oh, what I'm doing isn't working. And I need to, you know, figure out how to have a lifestyle that is more conducive to, like, what I actually want out of my life. And so I think people are more open to that. But I think that they there, I mean, first of all, there's no insurance covering it. And then also, a lot of times they don't really know what to do next. Right. Like, who do I work with? You know, do I read a book? Do I, like, do I do this by myself? We're kind of also conditioned to try to go things alone rather than seeking support. And then there's so much support out there that it's kind of like there's too many options to actually be able to decide. We get decision fatigue. And so I think that's another piece of it as well.

The decision fatigue thing is really interesting. Yeah. There was this research study that was done on jam. I think you and I might have talked about this at one point. Maybe jam.

Jam.

Edible jam, like jelly for P.B. and J. And so they had two jam tables set up. One vendor, she had, I think, four types of jam. The other vendor had upwards of 20 types of jam. And they looked at how much jam they ended up selling. You would think that the more options that people had, the more they would buy. But the opposite was true. Is that the individual who was selling just a little bit of jam, four different types of jam, she brought in significantly more money, more revenue than the lady who had more jam. So the researchers concluded, in part to their other findings, is that decision fatigue is a big part of it is. It's very overwhelming. And so when you have something that's pretty standardized, like, I'm going to go to my doctor, if I go to 10 allopathic doctors, they're all probably going to do about the same thing. But every single holistic practitioner that I see out there, that's like on Instagram and that are on TikTok and all the social media platforms, they're all saying something different. And it can be very overwhelming. And then people end up spending lots of money doing all sorts of different things. And the other piece about that is that it may not work as immediately because healing takes time versus suppression can happen in an instant.

Totally. Yeah. And. And it's really interesting because a lot of the different things that people are doing, they'll be like, my thing is the most effective. Right. It's like, well, I mean, in my experience, like, using a lot of different tools is the most effective. Right. And some things are going to land for some people and they're not going to land for other people. And so I think, you know, taking some of our ego out of it as like, practitioners and stuff of like, you know, not everyone is going to resonate with what I do, and that's okay. And also, it might not be effective for everyone like that. It's really. That one is a hard, hard thing to kind of recognize as a practitioner. Because, you know, we've helped so many people and we're like, no, this really does work. Right. But I think. I think when we're trying to help people make a decision, sort of having the person's best interest in mind, rather than being like, no, this works best for everyone. Because again, not everything works best for everyone. That's a really big piece of helping people as well, right?

Yeah, that using different tools because everybody is different.

Definitely referring it out if you feel like they need some. Something that you don't have.

This is kind of bringing me back kind of full circle to the history of holistic medicine in naturopathic medicine, specifically. So in history, we've had lots of different types of practitioners. There were traditional Chinese medicine doctors, there were homeopathic doctors. There were the water cure doctors, like presidents and OG Carroll, and there were, you know, the ayurvedic practitioners. There were all sorts of different types of practitioners. And then we had the MDs, which were doing all sorts of different stuff. So if I'm a homeopath, I'm going to give homeopathic remedies, and that's kind of what I do. And if I'm an herbalist, I'm going to be giving herbs. And so we had these MDs that were doing all sorts of things. They were doing bloodletting, they were doing where they were injecting substances into the person. They were using high doses of very toxic metals, which is actually the definition of quackery, which is fascinating. It's like the ultimate gaslighting. And so they're doing all these different types of modalities. They were giving heroin at that time. Like, if you look at a lot of those historical medicine bottles, they're like giving all sorts of stuff, you know, chloroform, whatever.

I mean, even recently they were doing lobotomies, like pretty recently. Yeah.

Lobotomization.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So they were doing surgeries, all sorts of different things. And so what they did is the American Medical association was established by the MDS at that time for the sole purpose of eliminating accessibility to holistic and alternative medicines. And so there's this whole story about the Flexner Report and how they went to different practitioners, found out all the different things that they did. They created a value system. If you do more things, more modalities to help more people, you have more of a broad ability to help people than they were gonna. They created the insurance industry from that. And so then the insurance industry was just covering these types of practitioners that were under their umbrella. Which goes to the. What I was saying earlier about the American Psychiatric association, who owns the dsm, that book we use to diagnose mental health conditions, and then the psychologists, who are all about trauma. Right. So even back then, we had that kind of a dichotomization. We had the AMA that was founded to get rid of herbalism and naturopathic medicine. So naturopathy at that point, crashed, and then we saw a resurgence in it. But what's been really interesting to kind of be in this field for the past almost two decades is that every time something seems to gain in popularity that they get rid of it. So, for example, during the most recent infectious event worldwide, lots and lots of people were using something called N acetylcysteine. And then there was word from the FDA that they were eliminating N acetylcysteine from the shelves. And then there's tons of people who are using IV B12. And one of my colleagues just went and testified about the importance of allowing us to still have access to IV B12. So when something gets really popular and gets on the radar, then they're trying to get rid of it. So there's this constant needing to just defend and retain our rights to have access to this kind of medicine. And I'm not even getting into homeopathy, which has just been the redheaded stepchild of holistic medicine from the beginning, is like, yeah, I won't even go there during this episode, but we still see this happening. And so I'm kind of having this meta experience as I'm explaining this to you, and it just feels so outrageous, and it feels a little bit like a conspiracy theory to say that there are powers and financial institutions and motivations to get rid of holistic medicine. But the reality is, is that there are people with their boots on the ground that are trying to fight for our rights to have access to holistic medicine, right?

It is so interesting because I do think that it's necessary to have some, some regulation and stuff as well, because there is some stuff out there that is like, yeah, no, like that doesn't actually work, right?

And there's dangerous.

And there have been so many conspiracy theories in the past two years. And it's like, I'm always like, like, you know, just we gotta be very, very mindful of that because, because the other side of it is, you know, I mean, it's so important to be open minded and then it's also so important to be discerning, right? And so, you know, I just wish that the regulations that we had were more, I mean, even science based, because some of it isn't science based. Like we have some things that, that are proving some of these things to be effective and yet were really behind on actually implementing and putting those things into place, right? And so, you know, when something is, I wish that there was a faster, like, way of getting it out to market, right? Even like people in med school, they're, what is it like either seven or 15 years behind, like what they're teaching people who are in med school is like 7 to 15 years. I forget what the, what the actual number was behind what the actual modern research is saying now. And we have so much modern research that is proving, you know, holistic medicine practices, Ayurveda. Like, there is so much research that is proving all of these, like ayurvedic methodology, methods, modalities, methods, and yet we're really behind on that. And there are things put into place that don't really allow those things to come forth, right? And so that's the really, that's the really frustrating thing. And to keep in mind that, you know, we don't want to just be like, everything's a conspiracy, right? And like there's like one person that is, is like moving all of the chess pieces, you know, and like, we just need to like fight against them and everything is bad, right? Like there's just again, nuance.

So how do we. So for me, holistic medicine is in danger. And I think that's a big pink elephant in the room. And how do we acknowledge that and transform that without like you're saying, without going to the extremes, but rather looking at the nuances of the conversation. Because I want, I want to take this acknowledgement and turn it into empowerment. And so, you know, as, as an individual, as a physician, as a person who wants to have access to these things and I want my patients and my family to have access to them. How can we be nuanced about this conversation?

Yeah, it's a really good question. It's a really. I mean, it's a hard answer, I think. And, you know, it's been my experience as well as, you know, there's been research on this as well, is that the only way that we can really change people's mind is not to have an argument with them, but rather to befriend them and have a conversation with them. And so collaboration and working together, I think, is going to be the path forward. I think more and more people are open to this, you know, this getting to the root cause of things that. And I think Even, you know, MDs, doctors are becoming more open, for sure. I, I know people who are MDs who are. Or who are in med school. I actually know some people who are in med school right now who are like, seeing, you know, oh, maybe this is not. This is not actually that helpful. And, you know, this, this could be incorporated here and stuff. And so just having those conversations is really, really important. And, and just, yeah, talking about it, talking about it in a way that isn't going to, you know, turn people off. I think a lot of the holistic wellness rhetoric recently has turned people off a lot, honestly. And some people have bought way, way deep into it and not saying that that's a bad thing either, either, but we having a nuanced conversation is really what's necessary here. And when we start to. When we start to get really like, these people are bad, this thing is bad. You know, all of these things are just like, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. That's gonna turn the people off who are, who you're talking about. Right. No one wants to be the bad guy. So allow them to be a participant and be the good guy. Allow them to be the, you know, or just neutral. Allow them to be the neutral guy and have. Have a conversation in that way rather than, this is bad, this is good.

I'm writing down what you're saying because I think these are really good, kind of actionable. So one that you said is to cultivate relationship on both sides so somebody can come to the table from this end. This is an audio, so you can't see me gesturing, but on the extreme left versus the extreme right. And having both of those people create relationship. And why do you believe what you believe? Tell me about your experiences. And so creating relationship is number one, and then number two is actually having a conversation about these difficult topics. Like today, we're having a conversation about is holistic medicine in danger? We've been talking about some slightly controversial things. Instead of, like, everything is fine, just use science. So having conversations about difficult topics. But like you said, Hadley is doing that with an open mind and exploration of nuances, which I really, really like and appreciate, which is something you said at the beginning of this conversation, is it's such a nuanced conversation, and I think there are limitations to what we know, and there's always opportunity for more research. As an example, there was a research study that came out that created all this controversy about vitamin D supplementation. And so they didn't know enough to know what they didn't know. So researchers are. And oftentimes they're different than clinicians who have time working with patients and doing something and seeing what happens versus a scientist in a lab is brilliant with the scientific method, but maybe they don't have that clinical experience. These scientists in a lab gave high doses of a certain form of vitamin D, and it caused plaque to deposit in the arteries. And so then they concluded vitamin D supplementation is not only not useful, but it's dangerous. So then all these people were like, don't take vitamin D. But then if you bring to the conversation the nuance of that and, well, vitamin D supplementation, yes, on its own, can cause plaque to build up in the arteries, but you're not supposed to give it on its own. You're supposed to give it with vitamin A, K, calcium and magnesium so that it can cross into the bones. And so, yeah, if you use it incorrectly, it could be a problem or not helpful. There's another study about vitamin E. They're like, vitamin E isn't clinically valuable. Well, you're not using the right form at the right dosage. Or somebody can say, like, this ayurvedic herb, like a triphala, isn't useful for someone with diarrhea. It made it worse. Well, yeah, because usually it loosens the bowels a little bit. So it's not the right match. It's not that.

It's the.

The. An unuseful or a dangerous plant combination. It's the wrong match. So I love what you're saying, Hadley, about exploring the nuances and getting information from all the different sides. They can bring their own genius to the table and really validate holistic medicine. And I also love what you were saying is kind of avoiding the impulse to create conclusions, because I feel like once I've drawn a conclusion, then I don't have to think about it anymore. I've Decided totally it. This is good, this is bad. The end.

Yeah. And that's such a turn off to the other people even. It's, you know, it can be a turn off to the person who, obviously who disagrees with you. And sometimes it's also a turn off to the person, the person who's actually like, well, I actually agree with most of what you're saying, but you're saying it in a way that is like, I, I don't know, like, yeah, you're too hard headed about it. Right. You're too stubborn about it. And I think I tend to, I mean, I am an optimist. I tend to believe that more people do believe in nuance than we think. It's usually the, the people who are the loudest are the people who don't believe in nuance, right?

Yes.

They're the people who are like, no, it's this. Or oh, it's this. I do think that most people, people are into nuance. And so, you know, being able to talk, to speak to that is not only more helpful for. Well, it's not, it's not only more true because it is more true, but it is also more beneficial for actually having a conversation changing anything that we want to have changed. We have to feel safe to change things and we have to feel safe to change our minds. So if we're coming at someone with like a different idea than them, you know, with this like really intense way of going about it, which, you know, is. So that used to be my tendency as a, as someone who has a lot of pitta in their constitution, which, if you haven't taken the Dosha quiz, do that quick plug. Yes, that has been. My tendency is to just be like, you know, this is the way it is very hardcore. And I've learned that that is, it's just not, it's just not that helpful for most, almost everything. So, yeah, so the more we can have those conversations, the more we can actually bring in the conversation in a, in a way that honors each other's humanity. Right? In a way that honors the insurance agency. The people working there honors their humanity. The people who are working in pharma honors their humanity. Like my, like I tend to, again, I'm an optimist. I tend to believe that people are not purposefully doing bad things right. Like they think they're doing something right. Sometimes they don't really care about whether it's right. You know, they're just making money off of it. But I do think like, you know, deep down People do want to do what is right, and maybe they have layers of trauma over top of that. Right. But again, honoring everyone's humanity is, I think, the name of the game here.

Honoring everyone's humanity. And so this has been a really great conversation to speak about holistic medicine, to speak about the politics of holistic medicine, the science behind holistic medicine, and to really explore, is holistic medicine in danger? And if so, in what ways, why? And what can we do about it? For me, I feel like the main takeaway of this conversation is the word nuance. Like, I feel like, really, that's the word that you said, Hadley, that really sticks out to me is nuance. The second thing that really sticks out to me is to not hold my profession like a secret hostage almost, because a lot of people in my profession, they don't want to share with the functional community because there's this sense of, we have been fighting in the mud, in the dirt to keep this alive, and we're gonna hold onto this and you're to pry it from my cold, dead fingers kind of a thing. And so allowing the world to just have access to this kind of information and not saying, like, this is mine, like, I get to keep the secret that is holistic medicine and then be mad that the world doesn't understand it and like it.

Classic.

Yeah, yeah. And then. And then nuance. So for you, is there anything that sticks out?

Yeah, I think. I think, yeah, the nuances is huge here. And really just bringing in. It's a. Both and like science, you know, scientific. The scientific method, which, you guys, I love the scientific method. Please do not get me wrong here, because the thing is, science and Ayurveda, or science and holistic medicine are completely compatible. That's why I love both, because they are actually compatible. To me, there's not even an argument. To me, there's not a controversy. There used to be. And I realized, wait, all of this makes perfect sense together. Like, we can look at this and it all makes absolutely perfect sense. So that's kind of. That would be my. My takeaway.

I love it. It's both. And, kids, thank you so much for listening. And Hadley, thanks for being on this podcast. I love doing these with you. This is great.

I know. It's so fun. Thanks, everyone. See ya. Talk soon.

The recording you just listened to consists of the personal opinions of Dr. Nicole Caine, a naturopathic doctor with a master's in clinical psychology and happy, healthy Hadley, an Ayurveda X with a master's in health behavior and health education. While these opinions are based upon literature, counseling education, medical training, and clinical experience, this content should not be viewed as the definitive opinion on these subjects. Listening to this podcast is not a substitute for any sort of medical, psychological, or other form of treatment. If you are in a Crisis, please call 911 or call the National Suicide Prevention Line at 1-800-273-8255. If you are in need of counseling, don't hesitate to make an appointment with a counselor in your area. Dr. Nicole and Hadley are passionate about you becoming the expert of your own emotional and physical well being. If this resonates with you and you think this podcast would help someone you love, please share it with them. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode of the Holistic Inner Balance Podcast.

SA.