EMDR Therapy with Dr. Nicole Cain, Estranged From A Brother, and Liars

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Just between us.

Hey.

Just between us.

Hello. I'm Allison Raskin. I'm a writer, mental health advocate, and I wear a lot of rings. I have a bunch of rings on now.

Hey, I'm Gabe Dunn. I'm a writer, bicon, bisexual icon, wink. And you know, life.

You know, I put a lot of thought.

I know you do.

Into the opening of this show.

I know.

And what I'm gonna say about myself and how I feel about myself. I know you don't ever prepare.

I'm mostly distracted because I have my. I think my chin hairs are growing in real hard and I put aquaphor on my face. Cause it's itching and now it's just itching more. So if anyone has thoughts on what to do about this. If you're sort of a 13 year old boy and your first facial hair is coming in and you sort of have thoughts and opinions and you listen to this show right in.

Oh my God. So it's itchy to. I guess. Yeah, it's itchy to have itchy beard growing.

It's so itchy. And I wish it could just happen fast, but unfortunately it's coming in small hairs at a time and. And it's just yesterday and today has been so itchy. Sorry, I don't. I think there's probably a lot one could do in this situation. I sometimes ice my face.

I think people do that.

People do that, right? Oh, they get those really fancy like ice roller things.

You should get one of those.

How are you?

Me?

Well, yeah. I mean, we're recording this. Your book hasn't come out, but this will be in the future.

Yeah.

Do you want to sort of speculate.

On what's happened on if my book did well or not or just anything? I don't want to play this game. This is just between us. A variety show filled with heartfelt advice, ridiculous games and brutal honesty.

But anything could have happened. Maybe an alien came down and said. And said, I love you, Allison Raskin. And I. All of the alien race. You need to come and be our queen. Maybe something cool happened.

I would love that. I would love if. If I would love to be shocked in a good way.

That's what I'm saying.

Instead of my continuous shock in a bad way.

Well, yes, of course. So maybe. Maybe there's a way to be shocked in a good way. Like an alien coming down and saying, you're their queen.

Yeah, that would be. I mean, there's, like, other things I'd actually probably prefer before that. Like, if what? I don't know.

Melissa's so annoyed at me. Okay. Anyway, we've got a great show coming out. We have Dr. Nicole Kane as our guest here talking about EMDR, and it's actually a really, really amazing interview.

And later, we're going to be talking.

About liars, which I, I. Yeah, I.

Don'T know why I picked this topic. I was really at the end of my rope, and Jezebel wasn't really offering me my normal solution.

Well, I do think we should talk about liars. I think this is something that comes up in hypotheticals. It comes up in a lot of our international questions.

Yeah. How do you deal with them? What do you do with a liar?

What do you do with a liar? Up next, we've got an exciting interview with our highly esteemed guest, Dr. Nicole Cain. So stay tuned.

Just Between Us.

Welcome back to Just Between Us. It's time for the juiciest, most scandalous, most controversial segment known to all of podcasting. Tough questions this week on the show.

Our guest is Dr. Nicole Cain, a pioneer in integrative approaches for mental and emotional wellness. With a degree in clinical psychology, training in emdr, and a license as a naturopathic physician in the state of Arizona, her approach to mental health is multidisciplinary, medical, psychological, and holistic. She's the author of Panic, the new holistic solution to end your anxiety forever. Hello.

Hello.

What incredible timing to be here for this episode.

Yes. I'm so happy to be here.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

Oh, thank you for joining. When you first reached out, we realized that, like, we haven't done a deep dive into emdr, and despite me having a master's in psychology, I still don't really understand how it works. So I would be so curious. Can you just. Can you just guide us through what this treatment method is?

Yes, and I honor you because I have a master's in psychology, and I had no idea either.

It's like, I know the terms. I know some People love it. Some people hate it. Like, it's a controversial one in a lot of ways.

And there are so many letters, and sometimes people just zone out while you're still saying the name. And so emdr, so it stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing Therapy. Wow, that's a lot. Yeah. And so if we break it down, we have a few components. One is the eye movement, and so that's left and right movement of the eye. And that, we think, mimics what your eyes do when you're in REM sleep. Have you ever seen someone sleeping and their eyes are kind of fluttering and moving back and forth? So that was part of the therapy when they were developing. It is this kind of idea of, mm, there must be something to this left and right processing of memories and then desensitization. And so this is when you are exposed to something again and again. The theory is that it will be less. You'll be less sensitive to it. And then the reprocessing is that we know the brain is incredibly plastic, metaphorically speaking, and it can change and heal. And so this was developed in the 1980s by Francine Shapiro. And in the beginning, the whole medical community is like, what is this wackadoodle science? It doesn't make any sense. It can't be real. It is way too weird. So she started publishing a lot of research, and her focus was in big T traumas, like war veterans or someone who'd gone through something really huge, like a singular crisis. And those people started getting so much better. And then the research expanded to everybody in between, whether their symptoms were showing up in their body or in their emotions, or sometimes their symptoms were just showing up in their behaviors and they were completely unaware of it. But we're seeing that EMDR could be really helpful for a lot of folks.

How does it work? And don't be afraid to get into the nitty gritty. We love the nitty gritty here.

Yes, we do.

Yeah. We think it's dual awareness processing. And so dual awareness is when we can have awareness of multiple things at once. And so maybe as you're listening to this conversation, you're noticing, like, you're moving your fingers with your hands. Right? Gabe's like, I know. Yes. So you hear the sound coming in your ears, you notice the feeling of touch. You may notice that you're hungry. So you. So you can notice all these different things in the present moment. But what we're finding with stress overwhelm, trauma adversity is that the present moment. The parts of the brain that process the present moment aren't the only parts of the brain affected. In fact, we find that adversity gets stored all over the brain and all over the body and the nervous system. So what we notice is that if we're able to bring up a memory, a traumatic memory, difficult memory, we light up all those brain networks that are associated with that and then we kind of go into a time warp. It feels like it's happening again. We feel like we're right back in that event or the series of events. And then when we pair that awareness with the present moment, like touch or smile, smell or movement or buzzers or whatever your therapist is using is this dual awareness helps take the trauma and it begins the process of reprogramming it, repatterning it. So we used to think it was really about the left and right movement of the eyes. And there's still most of the research is done with that. But we're starting to see that, like brain spotting might be an interesting option because of that dual awareness. We're seeing that other somatic approaches tapping emotional freedom technique that we're getting similar outcomes with some of these treatments too. So we think it may be the dual awareness part that's really sticking out for people.

We're going to take a quick break for commercials and we'll be right back with our guest.

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Just between us.

And we're back with our guest.

What is brainspotting?

Okay, Brainspotting. It's. Maybe you've seen this, It's a little bit newer, but your clinician will hold up. It sounds really hokey, but I'm here for hokey. If it works right, is they'll hold up. Like, the person I learned brainspotting from, he had wands, but they make actual pointer devices. But he liked to keep it fun and quirky, so he had wands. And so you have the person focus on the tip of the wand or the device, and they just follow it from the top. If you imagine you're drawing a square and you follow it from the top right hand corner all the way across to the top left hand corner, and then you go down and you just start working it back and forth. And so what brain spotting is, is it's using the positioning of the eyes with how we feel in our bodies to either activate and unpack or to calm. Like, for example, have either of you ever just, like, zoned out and you just find yourself staring at a space? Maybe it's something that you probably like a person. You're like, sorry, it just feels so good to stare in this direction. Mm, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's kind of what brain spotting is based on, is like sometimes it just feels really calming to the nervous system to just allow your gaze to just drift into a certain quadrant and you focus on that. And so they've kind of structured it to unpack trauma and adversity with.

And so I feel like I'm still missing a piece. I'm still missing. Okay, so we're bringing up. We're bringing up the memory, and we're doing this. Physical elements of either the eye movements or the brain spotting. And then what, what Is this next step that then causes the healing or the processing?

Yeah. So step one is we get the history. And so let's say I used to have a terrible phobia of flying. So we'll make it concrete and use a specific example, is you have this. This thing you want to work on. So mine is the fear of flying. And what we go back, ideally, we take a really good, thorough case history, and we go back to the earliest time that you can remember feeling that way, feeling activated in that way. And so for me, I was on a flight that had hit some turbulence coming into Phoenix International Airport, and, like, a bunch of stuff flew across the plane, and the person next to me, like, they, like, yelled and their arms flew in the air, and everyone gasped. And so my brain was like, oh, we're gonna die. And my body memorized that state. So then every time after that, that I flew, my body's like, oh, okay, we're gonna reenact this. So with the emdr, that very first step is we go in, we figure out what it is our target should be. So that memory. And so then we'll then apply the bilateral stimulus, whether it's the. The light bar going left and right, or if you're doing brain spotting, you may do the quadrants. I'm trained in emdr, so I focus more on that. And so let's say you're doing the mdr, you're doing the bilateral stimulation. Maybe your clinician is having you hold a buzzer, one in each hand, that will buzz left and right alternatingly. Or maybe they'll have you looking at a light bar, and your eyes will travel left and right, and you notice the memory. So you're activating that past event or those series of events, and then you're in the moment. Your brain is constantly being stimulated by. We're here right now. I see this light. I feel this buzzer. And so now the parts of the brain that are aware of the present, like your prefrontal cortex, the logical parts of the brain, and the brain that is responsible for processing the here and now is being exposed to these memories. And so then we have the reprocessing. And so that part is. We've noticed it, we've gone through it. You're going to have these feelings, these thoughts, these responses are going to come up. And then we decide, well, how do I want to feel about this? And so when I did the EMDR work, I was like, well, I'd really like to feel like I was safe and that flying is as safe as it could be. And that in my adult wise mind, I chose to get on this plane and that everything is safe and okay. So then you go back in, and you can do this in lots of ways. My favorite way to do it is I bring my present adult, amazing, badass self to that memory, and we'll actually go in from that frame of reference, and you can start laying down those intentional thoughts and those feelings, those neurocognitive networks, to then change the way that you feel when you think about that memory.

Oh, so you bring. Okay, so you yourself, you think of that memory, and you are forced to be in the moment because of the movements.

Yes, exactly.

And then the next step is because you're in the moment, your body will start to respond differently to the memory and respond more like you did during the EMDR than during the initial memory.

Yeah, yeah. We find that, let's say that in that fear of flying, we get an emotional hijack. And so the person next to me, he was yelling, his arms were flailing, people were gasping. The emotional brain will get the message long before the logical brain has time to weigh in. And so the emotional brain, the amygdala, is like, oh, dang, we're in danger. And it will bypass the logical brain. It'll bypass the prefrontal cortex, and it will activate a series of chemical changes. Like we'll release cortisol, which is a stress hormone, adrenaline. And so then the body will go into fight, flight, freeze. Or there's actually more. So I teach about this too. It's fight, freeze, flight, freeze, flop, fawn fracture. Yes, you know, exactly. And so then the hippocampus, this part of the brain that's job is to organize and create memories, it's gonna store this pattern away, and it's gonna be like, I got you, boo. Every time something similar or reminds you of the scary flight, the hippocampus is gonna bring that back. So then when we do the emdr, we're seeing that the brain is able to now reprocess the memory from the position of your logical brain being on board, instead of it being completely hijacked and everything getting stored away as fragments and big emotional things. So now you feel more logical. You're like, oh, that was turbulence. Oh, that was scary. But I was totally safe. We landed. And people will describe that. They can think about the memory, but it almost feels a little distant, like in the fog. So have either of you had EMDR then?

No.

Oh, it's so good. Like one to three sessions On a big, scary thing like the fear of flying that I talked about, one to three sessions can almost. From almost all cases can clear that. And you'll feel so much better. It'll feel like it's a little distant. You'll be like, I remember feeling that way, but I just. I don't really connect with it anymore.

Or you'll say, I imagine it. Then it becomes an actual memory of. You're like, this is a thing that happened in. This is my autistic brain going, this is a thing that happened in the past. There's no indication based on that past. That's not a strong enough data point to know if this will happen again in the future or if this will lead to anything bad. It's actually a neutral event that occurred one time and that it's actually. You don't have enough data to let that affect your life.

Oh, my God. That's brilliant. You're bringing to mind. Have you heard of the Little Albert experiment, Allison? Maybe you did when you were in psychology school. It's with the little rabbit. Can I tell you about that? Because I feel like you just made. Gabe, you just made such a huge, important point I want to emphasize.

Sure. Isn't this, like, a traumatic thing?

Oh, yes. They were. This poor little baby. His name is Little Albert. And so they were talking about how the brain can generalize stimuli.

Oh, yeah.

So they put in front of this, like, little baby, this cute little bunny. And the baby was like, oh, cute bunny. And so the baby's, like, reaching out and petting it, and everything is fun and lovely. And so that's our baseline measure is then the baby had, like, stuffed animals, and everything was peachy. So then in phase two of the experiment, they placed the bunny in front of the baby, and then they blasted a loud noise that startled the baby. And the baby is looking at the bunny, feeling the fur of the bunny, getting the crap startled out of them. And so then, after repeated occurrences, the child started to cry every time the bunny was placed in front of them. But to Gabe's point is that this then started to generalize. Where would. Then they put a stuffed animal in front of the baby, and the baby started to cry. And so what we see is that the brain is like, yeah, I got scared of that flying. And I'll do you one better. Anytime a plane flies overhead, even if you're not paying attention to it, we're gonna put you in fight flight. Freeze. Just in case. And so instead of it being a thing in the past, it's now continuing to negatively affect you.

We're going to take a quick break for commercials, and we'll be right back with our guest.

Just between us.

And we're back with our guest. I will say the history of psychological research is a dark one. And there's a lot of bad stuff to keep kids and animals.

Yeah, yeah.

But hopefully. But now we try to be more ethical in what we test.

I was waiting for the part where then they do the thing on the baby opposite, and then they. They take it away from the baby. I was waiting for part two where they're like. And then we play a really nice thing. And now you're holding the rabbit and.

Yeah, I know.

They just kind of traumatized that baby.

They were ruthless.

Okay. Fun.

Yeah, I know.

Oh, okay. Cool. Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, it is very like trying to create. Trying to make things neutral so even. And not create narratives or scripts. Cause I've. I've spent a lot of time around people who do create narratives and scripts, and it has been, like, incredibly jarring for me, and it has made me do that. Whereas, like, you know, for example, I dated someone who. If we were fighting and there was, like, a dead bird on the street, like, that it would make the fight worse. Or, like, you know, if somebody.

If I.

Because it symbolized.

It symbolized the. The. Our relationship or when. When to me, that is a neutral occurrence. Or it'll be like, you know, it'll be like. And. And it's always like this. Like, my sister gets upset and she's like. And it's always like this. And it's not always like that. But it turns out people don't want you to say that. That's not comforting, I guess, or they think it's condescending or something. So. But to me, it's like, no, it's actually less traumatizing to just think of things as neutral events and not as part of a story about life.

I love the metaphor of. I learned this from my Ayurveda teacher, and he taught me about the upper bird and the lower bird. And so there could be all these things that are happening on the street, metaphorically speaking. Dumpster fires and chaos and screaming and all sorts of stuff. Right. And so then on the lower wire sits this bird, and they're looking down and they see everything, and they feel the shock waves, and it's all affecting them, and it's so big and so overwhelming. And then we have the upper wire. So on the upper wire, we have the upper bird and that bird is able to look down and still notice and acknowledge everything as it is without magical thinking or labels or whatever it is, and just to simply accept and allow it to be. And so when I'm doing the work with my clients with emdr is I always want to ask, like, okay, is this a lower bird moment? Are we in it? And how can we teach you to then go between wires? Because we don't want to all just be so dissociated that we're complacent, but we can't all be in it all the time. And so it's like, how do we allow ourselves to feel what we need to feel, leverage it so that we can take personal power and agency and responsibility? And then when do we go to that upper wire and just notice and hold that space without being just so extremely affected?

It's hard to do because everything in our lives, in pop culture and all this stuff is taught to, you know, we're taught to say, oh, I'm going through a breakup. I'll never find love again. I made a mistake in the stock market. I'm stupid, and I'm bad at money, and I'm bad at, like, being an adult. You know, like, create. Like, everything is supposed to create a narrative, and it does. Simply does not have to.

Yeah, yeah.

But it's hard to do.

So I would wonder in what way is creating a narrative an adaptation protection?

Right? Cause then you go, oh, I'm just bad at this. Or, oh, you know what? It's that I'll never find love. It's not that this was a bad.

Relationship, or it's that you get a sense of control. Right? Because if you can understand why a thing happened to you, then even if the reason is that you're an idiot, you're like, well, at least the world makes sense. But if, like, you just instead go, well, random, terrible, awful things happen all the time that I have absolutely no control over, that's scarier than saying, well, I'm simply an idiot.

Exactly.

I'm finding that the random things happening all the time has become more comforting.

But that's growth, right? That's where we want to get to. We want to get to understanding that uncertainty is inevitable and that we can sit in the discomfort of that rather than having to create a storyline that doesn't often serve us.

Correct.

I think that's brilliant because if we start looking at our thoughts and our feelings, our behaviors, our experiences as coping mechanisms or adaptations, then suddenly the conversation is, what is this trying to tell me that I Need to heal. What opportunities for growth do I have here? And that can be very empowering. Especially if these adaptations occurred because of not having control or safety or support or power when we were younger and those parts are still stored in the body and in the nervous system. And so then when they whisper or shout at you in your current day to day life, instead of trying to cope them away, we can honor them and we can love them and say, okay, I am here. What is it you need me to know? And then how do we reprocess that? How do we bring that into the moment from a place of power or neutrality, whatever it needs to be?

Yeah, I learned how to like this thing happened. You can still keep the protection, but you don't need to keep the trauma apart.

Ooh, that's so good.

I don't know, I'm just spitting, spitballing.

You know, I'm curious, I think that something that's unclear in a lot of the way that we talk about mental health online and a lot about, you know, even in just the, the subtitle of your book to get rid of anxiety Forever. Like, but is that the goal? Like, isn't the goal to be able to like tolerate the anxiety rather than to expect it to not exist? Or like, how do you under, how do you figure out what is the right ratio being uncomfortable throughout your life?

Yes, thank you for asking that question. So when I think about anxiety, anxiety is a label that we give to our lived experience. And so that lived experience, if we're having a really fun time, maybe for some people that's like a roller coaster, right? Your heart is beating really fast, you may be breathing quickly, your muscles may be tense, your body's releasing adrenaline and cortisol. You, you're like, yes, this is amazing. Right? So I'm on a roller coaster. And then maybe you're on a really hot date and you're really excited and it might go somewhere and your heart is beating faster and you're sweating and you have dry mouth and you're getting all these physical sensations and cortisol, adrenaline, other neurochemical changes. The difference is the context. And then if we're being chased by a tiger in the woods, our heart is going to pound, we're going to be sweating, maybe our muscles are getting lots of energy and blood flow and adrenaline and we're shaking. And in that context it's fear. And so when I talk about anxiety, this is when we experience arousal symptoms or activation symptoms. And those activation symptoms make us feel disempowered we don't know what to do about it. I'm in D.C. right now. So I was flying to D.C. and we were flying in a pencil. It's like this teeny little plane and hurricane weather is rippling up and so it's bumpy. And so I notice my body is producing. Oh, my hearts are a little bit faster and I'm getting like a little bit of this funny little nerve zap in my upper jaw. And past Nicole would have been like, oh my God, I'm so anxious. I just can't handle this. This is so stressful. I just need to get out as opposed to when I notice the sensations. Now I'm able to be curious and say, okay, I'm getting a little activated. That means I have a little bit of work to do later on this. But what can I do to tend to my nervous system, to tend to my body, to help me feel empowered? What strategies do I need to use? So it isn't anxiety, it's a relationship of that bidirectional communication of my body's giving me data and I'm responding to it. So there's a little bit of the nuance there. Yeah.

And I mean, and some anxiety is needed. When you are getting chased by a tiger, you should feel worried.

Fear. Terror. Fear, yes.

So I think it's figuring out when it isn't necessary how to get back to baseline, but also understanding that if you are in danger, your body is trying to give you that adrenaline. Do those biological changes so that you can run faster, so that you can do all the things you need to do to protect yourself.

Exactly. And then we can say, oh, thank you body for mounting that response. So I didn't try to psychoanalyze the tiger with my logical brain that we just beelined it for safety.

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Okay, that's it. Tato Latitude.

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